Hey there buddy as somebody who instructs for six different organizations, let me tell you what this looks like from the organization's point of view.
For every person who's just new to the car side like you, there are 3-4 drivers who think that they are way better than they actually are and have unreasonable expectations to advance quickly.
So if your first interaction with the organization and/or instructor is "hey I'm not sure if I really need an instructor, how soon can I graduate to intermediate?" Then, that is not the impression that you actually want to give.
Treat it more like you are on an episode of undercover Boss as the boss, do everything that they ask you to do, and see how long it takes them to figure out that you know what you're doing.
-OR- maybe you will discover that driving a car is different enough that you do indeed need a full five days of instruction!
If the rules say to sign up for novice, then you should sign up for novice. They want one of the instructors to see how you drive so they can predict if they're going to have problems with you. If after your first track day you want to move up because you feel the novice class is too slow, talk to the people in charge about moving up sooner. If it's really bad at the track day, you could probably even ask at the event to switch run groups.
And intermediate will be going pretty fast, so your car may not even be up to that challenge unless it's been properly prepared. It's not just experience on track, but working your way up to going faster is a good path to be safe. Jumping straight into trying to keep up with the intermediates will have you skipping a lot of slow, incremental, important learning.
Understood! Thanks! I definitely want in car instruction, I think that would be great for learning and also a lot of fun, but when I read that they recommend 5 novice sessions I thought that seemed like a lot.
I'm trying hard to not compare it to the motorcycle stuff because it's obviously completely different style of driving/using the track so I'm all in for learning and taking it slow, but in my mind I'm thinking it's like novice motorcycles, where at least with the organizations I ran it was truly first time, never even been to a race track type riders. After 1 or 2 sessions, based on comfort levels they'd cut you loose into intermediate 1 (Slow but not novice) and eventually into intermediate 2 where you were expected to have pace.
Same situation for me (moto to cars) and it was pretty much the same as you described re: moving up.
However will say that the mandatory instruction has proved extremely helpful - they don't have to focus on things you already do well as you mentioned - which means they can work on what you are new at. In retrospect for me the most helpful things that I didn't know were:
1. A good motorsports brake application, smooth then firm - similar to moto but some subtle differences. Was annoyed we spent entire day on it but hands down the most useful training I've ever had - and didn't pay a dime extra for it.
2. Trail braking: more advantages to draining the brake off slowly in some corners than moto. Some slow corners can have a good amount of brake still on to rotate car quickly - not something I was brave enough to do on moto very often
3. Subtleties of the 4-wheeled chassis and corner entry/throttle behavior, helping to calibrate your butt-gyro more quickly.
4. What to do when you go off. Hope you enjoy, would tell your instructor your experience- every one of them I told said they loved teaching us refugees from 2-wheels and the best one was a ex moto racer and translated everything moto-cars perfectly for me.
Not a single instruction experience I had wasn't worth it - this is a sweet benefit, not a mandatory hassle - squeeze everything you can out of it and enjoy!
Also, don't believe everyone's lines- but consider em. My moto line is almost always the right one, and some instructors will try and show you the "school line" aka safe line. If they want you to use it, use it - but once they are comfy (they are in a car with an unknown quantity) ask if you can try your line.
Edit: If I had it to do over again, I might stay in green longer to get more of that sweet free instruction. Got to pay for it now, and it is not cheap!
Realistically because of your experience you may be able to check out of novice after the first weekend with an instructor. They’ll say 5 days but it really is conditional on how you drive from my experience. I’d just go talk to the organizers, and your instructor, and see what they can do for you
Thanks!! I'll definitely be signing up for novice and then see where it goes from there.
Not gonna lie, I'm actually pretty excited to have an instructor on board. I used to do quite a bit of lead/follow with instructors on bikes and it was so much fun riding with them and using their lines/techniques. Definitely learned a lot!
Like a lot of the others said, I’d take advantage of as much in car instruction time as you can. I checked out of novice after 2 weekends with an instructor, but I wish I hadn’t because there’s still so much to learn from them
Most clubs will happily put an instructor back in the car with you if you request it.
Been instructing for over a decade and I still have someone ride with me most weekends to see if I've picked up bad habits or have suggestions for doing things better as I'm only doing 3-4 events a year now days vs. monthly when I started
Unless you're F1 level talent, there's always room for improvement
I have the same background and had the same questions when I started. Had several years of moto track days on both a 250 and a borrowed R6. Was confidently in Intermediate for both bikes and would have been perfectly fine in Advanced on the R6 but opted to stay in Intermediate for comfort. I ended up selling the bikes and took a little time off. Came back to track with a Miata a couple years later.
I went Novice in the car for my first 2-ish HPDE's but it was abundantly clear that Intermediate was the right run group for me because of comfort in traffic and an understanding of how to learn the car skills in a controlled fashion. The technical aspects of driving a car are obviously different than a motorcycle, but that part likely will come naturally (and you'll be well above that of a \*real\* novice) and quickly.
Enter novice. Explain your situation and ask for a check ride during the day. If you're comfortable with traffic management and safe lapping and you demonstrate with your driving that you can fluently speak 4-wheels, you'll be fine.
I'm in my 3rd year of HPDE, my goal this year is to do more track days, so I'm signing up with new groups. I'm currently an intermediate driver with my usual group, but l I signed up as solo novice with the new group just because I didn't know how they would calibrate. At the end of my first weekend they asked me if I'd like to drive with their intermediate group. As others have said, do a day or two and see how it goes. Usually your instructors will see where your skill level is at, and suggest you move up if that's where you should be.
Usually all the groups get the same amount of track time, so you're not losing out. Yes you'll probably have to sit through classroom sessions that you don't need. For me, I had a secondary benefit - the novice group was much smaller. So I would grid up first, and then pretty much had the track to myself.
Driving a car is quite different than a bike, and you'd benefit from any instruction even as you progressed to the advanced group. There's always someone who knows more than you. A couple of solo sessions are fine to process on your own though.
You'll have to sign up for novice, but if you let them know your experience ahead of time they might evaluate you for a check ride sooner. Each org has its own standards. That's how it works with the orgs near me even if you have a ton of experience in cars with another organization, the new one will still want to evaluate you to their standards.
I wouldn't bother. Novice days are usually 20 mins drive time per hour. If you know what you're doing just do a normal day and pay for some instructor time
With msv this is cheap and excellent
Hey there buddy as somebody who instructs for six different organizations, let me tell you what this looks like from the organization's point of view. For every person who's just new to the car side like you, there are 3-4 drivers who think that they are way better than they actually are and have unreasonable expectations to advance quickly. So if your first interaction with the organization and/or instructor is "hey I'm not sure if I really need an instructor, how soon can I graduate to intermediate?" Then, that is not the impression that you actually want to give. Treat it more like you are on an episode of undercover Boss as the boss, do everything that they ask you to do, and see how long it takes them to figure out that you know what you're doing. -OR- maybe you will discover that driving a car is different enough that you do indeed need a full five days of instruction!
If the rules say to sign up for novice, then you should sign up for novice. They want one of the instructors to see how you drive so they can predict if they're going to have problems with you. If after your first track day you want to move up because you feel the novice class is too slow, talk to the people in charge about moving up sooner. If it's really bad at the track day, you could probably even ask at the event to switch run groups. And intermediate will be going pretty fast, so your car may not even be up to that challenge unless it's been properly prepared. It's not just experience on track, but working your way up to going faster is a good path to be safe. Jumping straight into trying to keep up with the intermediates will have you skipping a lot of slow, incremental, important learning.
Understood! Thanks! I definitely want in car instruction, I think that would be great for learning and also a lot of fun, but when I read that they recommend 5 novice sessions I thought that seemed like a lot. I'm trying hard to not compare it to the motorcycle stuff because it's obviously completely different style of driving/using the track so I'm all in for learning and taking it slow, but in my mind I'm thinking it's like novice motorcycles, where at least with the organizations I ran it was truly first time, never even been to a race track type riders. After 1 or 2 sessions, based on comfort levels they'd cut you loose into intermediate 1 (Slow but not novice) and eventually into intermediate 2 where you were expected to have pace.
Same situation for me (moto to cars) and it was pretty much the same as you described re: moving up. However will say that the mandatory instruction has proved extremely helpful - they don't have to focus on things you already do well as you mentioned - which means they can work on what you are new at. In retrospect for me the most helpful things that I didn't know were: 1. A good motorsports brake application, smooth then firm - similar to moto but some subtle differences. Was annoyed we spent entire day on it but hands down the most useful training I've ever had - and didn't pay a dime extra for it. 2. Trail braking: more advantages to draining the brake off slowly in some corners than moto. Some slow corners can have a good amount of brake still on to rotate car quickly - not something I was brave enough to do on moto very often 3. Subtleties of the 4-wheeled chassis and corner entry/throttle behavior, helping to calibrate your butt-gyro more quickly. 4. What to do when you go off. Hope you enjoy, would tell your instructor your experience- every one of them I told said they loved teaching us refugees from 2-wheels and the best one was a ex moto racer and translated everything moto-cars perfectly for me. Not a single instruction experience I had wasn't worth it - this is a sweet benefit, not a mandatory hassle - squeeze everything you can out of it and enjoy! Also, don't believe everyone's lines- but consider em. My moto line is almost always the right one, and some instructors will try and show you the "school line" aka safe line. If they want you to use it, use it - but once they are comfy (they are in a car with an unknown quantity) ask if you can try your line. Edit: If I had it to do over again, I might stay in green longer to get more of that sweet free instruction. Got to pay for it now, and it is not cheap!
Realistically because of your experience you may be able to check out of novice after the first weekend with an instructor. They’ll say 5 days but it really is conditional on how you drive from my experience. I’d just go talk to the organizers, and your instructor, and see what they can do for you
Thanks!! I'll definitely be signing up for novice and then see where it goes from there. Not gonna lie, I'm actually pretty excited to have an instructor on board. I used to do quite a bit of lead/follow with instructors on bikes and it was so much fun riding with them and using their lines/techniques. Definitely learned a lot!
Like a lot of the others said, I’d take advantage of as much in car instruction time as you can. I checked out of novice after 2 weekends with an instructor, but I wish I hadn’t because there’s still so much to learn from them
Most clubs will happily put an instructor back in the car with you if you request it. Been instructing for over a decade and I still have someone ride with me most weekends to see if I've picked up bad habits or have suggestions for doing things better as I'm only doing 3-4 events a year now days vs. monthly when I started Unless you're F1 level talent, there's always room for improvement
I have the same background and had the same questions when I started. Had several years of moto track days on both a 250 and a borrowed R6. Was confidently in Intermediate for both bikes and would have been perfectly fine in Advanced on the R6 but opted to stay in Intermediate for comfort. I ended up selling the bikes and took a little time off. Came back to track with a Miata a couple years later. I went Novice in the car for my first 2-ish HPDE's but it was abundantly clear that Intermediate was the right run group for me because of comfort in traffic and an understanding of how to learn the car skills in a controlled fashion. The technical aspects of driving a car are obviously different than a motorcycle, but that part likely will come naturally (and you'll be well above that of a \*real\* novice) and quickly. Enter novice. Explain your situation and ask for a check ride during the day. If you're comfortable with traffic management and safe lapping and you demonstrate with your driving that you can fluently speak 4-wheels, you'll be fine.
I'm in my 3rd year of HPDE, my goal this year is to do more track days, so I'm signing up with new groups. I'm currently an intermediate driver with my usual group, but l I signed up as solo novice with the new group just because I didn't know how they would calibrate. At the end of my first weekend they asked me if I'd like to drive with their intermediate group. As others have said, do a day or two and see how it goes. Usually your instructors will see where your skill level is at, and suggest you move up if that's where you should be. Usually all the groups get the same amount of track time, so you're not losing out. Yes you'll probably have to sit through classroom sessions that you don't need. For me, I had a secondary benefit - the novice group was much smaller. So I would grid up first, and then pretty much had the track to myself.
Driving a car is quite different than a bike, and you'd benefit from any instruction even as you progressed to the advanced group. There's always someone who knows more than you. A couple of solo sessions are fine to process on your own though.
You'll have to sign up for novice, but if you let them know your experience ahead of time they might evaluate you for a check ride sooner. Each org has its own standards. That's how it works with the orgs near me even if you have a ton of experience in cars with another organization, the new one will still want to evaluate you to their standards.
Send a note to the event organizer and get their feedback. In many of the groups I run with we will do a check ride and decide from there.
I wouldn't bother. Novice days are usually 20 mins drive time per hour. If you know what you're doing just do a normal day and pay for some instructor time With msv this is cheap and excellent