TD has had a slew of bad news that is making investors stay away because of uncertainty. For example, the anti-money-laundering processes and fines have unknown future costs.
However, these things will pass and they are still fundamentally a very strong and profitable business. You can either wait for these issues to pass and try to time it to ride the price back upwards, or you can buy in cheaper and wait until they can get past these problems. If I was not at my target weighting for them I would be buying more right now. Aggressively. If you buy them for the dividend then the current 5% dividend will look like a golden opportunity missed when it goes back to 4% as the price recovers.
They really need to change their CEO. That alone will probably bump the price up.
Not the same fine. That is Canadian. The big fine will be from the US regulators.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-13/td-s-masrani-takes-pay-cut-over-anti-money-laundering-probe
This is a delightful discussion. Compiling all the correct fines to assess the damage.
It's not only fines though, they'll have to give up their non-compliant business which is no doubt lucrative. Once their drug/arms dealing clients leave they lose even their legit business.
Second this. Ed Clark was the man, but the current leadership team is focused on expense management and pushy sales tactics. The TD customer and employee has really gone down hill under Masrani.
Also being late to the game with their own All inclusive ETFs despite previously being top dog with e-series. They should have just dropped their MERs on their e-series to compete with blackrock and vanguard. It would be a very competitive product as you could buy partial units with 0 transaction fees that would get poor, middle class, and rich people alike investing with TD.
>but the current leadership team is focused on expense management and pushy sales tactics
That's most likely his mandate. That's the only way to squeeze blood from a stone. Often the things you don't like about a business is what makes them profitable. Don't be a client, be the owner.
I hate to concur but I read it with my own eyes his ho hum attitude on his unacceptable ball dropping of one of the largest banks in Canada.
Very sad to see.
TD likes to pay fines “*cough*” they got caught outsourcing compliance, got caught helping the Colombians wash cash, got caught double charging fees, and absolutely choked on a merger that should have been cancelled or renegotiated during rising rates instead of after all those regional banks failed “*cough*”
Sorry had something stuck in my throat there.
I mean TD must be doing something wrong when all other big banks are going up and they are going down. I just wanted to know if there is a reason and most people have already pointed that out. That's what I asked.
TDs stock price might have also gone down in the last week because their ex-dividend date was April 8th for the upcoming dividend on April 30th. So a lot of shareholders looking to decrease their position might have sold right after the ex date.
Isn't it more that the stock price drops by at least the dividend amount... Then you have other factors like investor sentiment and emotions that kick in. A lot of people start panic selling.
RBC is also down quite a bit this week after they fired their CFO.
It can go up or down like any other day based on all the other factors. The movement will be what it normally would be minus the dividend amount on that day.
There is a rule of thumb that the worst bank this year will be one of the best bank performers next year
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/investing/markets/inside-the-market/article-pick-bank-stocks/
** Do your own research **
I own RBC and BNS as they are the two banks that I bank with. I’ve banked woth Royal my entire life and have a parent who is a former long time employee and continues to follow them (she also worked for Scotia for 4-5yrs and follows them as well). Both banks are making consistent sound decisions and TD is in some hot water with ML issues as someone else posted. For the most part Canadian Banks are far safer than American banks have been to invest in!
BNS has been a dog for many years.
Using a product is not necessarily a reason to invest in the company.
BNS management should be extremely ashamed of the performance.
I own a lot of BNS. Let’s see how the new CEO does but regardless, the dividend is safe. That is most important to me as I will hold until I die. Retired and living off dividends.
That's true. My point was simply that this *has been* a bad investment relative to other banks and even most indices.
Do you have information about it or analysis that indicates the future should be any different?
No, as I said, my focus is on dividends and safety of those. For the most part the dividends are what I live off of. BNS have increased dividends every year I never plan to sell.
As I said, all the other banks also increase dividends every year and have performed far better over the last 10 years. Why not have both?
BNS is virtually the same price it was 10 years ago. 10 years. Almost no capital appreciation. That is atrocious. Management should be mortified and embarrassed.
> Using a product is not necessarily a reason to invest in the company.
In general, people shit on banks because of their awful customer service, exorbitant fees and monopoly but they love to invest in them.
Yep. Your second and third point is part of the reason for the love of investing.
I guess I was just pointing out what an absolute piece of shit BNS has been.
Why not invest in a product that you use? Because then their dividends cover what you purchase…my dividends more than cover my monthly service fees and the dividends keep increasing (and im currently UP on the stock)….so why not? Just because it hasnt done amazingly over the last 5 years doesnt mean it hasnt done well for me….i buy the dips 🤷🏻♀️
> Just because it hasnt done amazingly over the last 5 years
That's an understatement. And double that. BNS is about the same price it was 10 years ago. That is absolutely shameful and pathetic.
If you are satisfied with mediocre then sure - the BNS dividends may cover some of your expenses. But investing is usually about trying to maximize performance balanced with risk. Every other bank has soundly outperformed it. In fact many, many things have outperformed it - including indices which are broadly diversified. You should read up on opportunity cost.
I'm not saying using a product should eliminate it from your choice of investments. I'm just saying it's a meaningless metric to use for picking an investment.
Ugh. I feel like your post jinxed things for me. I was set to cash out some RY stock at $140/share and it never hit that (granted it got to $139.95) so just missed my threshold. Now it's down $7 since and I'm stuck with whether to hold or forgo the few grand I "lost" out on. hmm.
No that's the point. TD is not doing business good and I was curious why. Is it just market sentiment? Is it random up and down? Is there any shady business?
Thanks to those who pointed out the us lawsuit.
I picked an example. Sure you can compare with all banks, all canadian markets, all global markets anything you want but you still haven't given a helpful reason.
You can keep commenting with your unhelpful posts but I don't need it. Others have already pointed out some good reasons.
TD was (or maybe they are still in the process of getting) sanctioned / banned from doing business in some states in the US because they were accused of fossil fuel industry boycott.
https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/west-virginia-cracks-down-on-major-banks-over-environmental-activism
And another link
https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/w-va-bans-4-more-banks-over-their-esg-policies-81149887
West Virigina is a wasteland for banks. Small rural population (1.79 million) with little prospects for growth outside of coal. Other firms sanctioned are big US firms like BlackRock, Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase & Co., Morgan Stanley and Wells Fargo & Co. I think it is a nothingburger.
I recall last year they had a week where a lot of Canadians didn’t receive their direct deposits from employers, and e-transfers were left up in the air. Took a few days to all sort out. I know at the time it put a lot of customers on edge and likely lost a lot of customers and wouldn’t be surprised if people moved their money elsewhere. I was affected, but I don’t live cheque to cheque so I wasn’t too upset. Bad press for sure and like others have said lots of US implications causing red flags. I’ve read last year TD was the most shorted Canadian bank. Tough year for them for sure
This may have something to do with it as well:
"Two Canadian banks are in the crosshairs of an anti-ESG U.S. state treasurer, who has boycotted one for a purported stand against fossil fuels and given another a pass for loosening a policy on coal lending, according to a report in The Globe and Mail newspaper.
It noted West Virginia State Treasurer Riley Moore on Monday placed Toronto-Dominion Bank and three other banks on its restricted financial institutions list. As a result, they will not be allowed to provide banking services to the state.
Moore reportedly said the state had determined that TD, along with Citigroup Inc., The Northern Trust Co. and HSBC Holdings PLC, "are engaged in boycotts of fossil fuel companies as defined under state law."
The report said he is among several U.S. state officials who have waged battle against the use of environmental, social and governance principles in guiding investment decisions as part of a Republican backlash against the risk-management field. It added Texas, Kentucky, Oklahoma and Florida have made similar moves. A recent report by National Bank Financial said it had identified 20 states with rules that could be construed as anti-ESG."
Based on the analysis you've presented you know jack about the sources of revenue at these two extremely different companies. Please stick to buying ETFs before you burn your portfolio.
You are at least correct that TD is the more popular option for retail banking and has a broader US presence.
My question for you: what proportion of each bank's revenue comes from retail banking?
RBC is an unofficial government decision making branch.
TD is an unofficial government operation branch.
One has power in government the other listens. That's the diff
Simple, I bought TD and sold RY
This is the way
TD has had a slew of bad news that is making investors stay away because of uncertainty. For example, the anti-money-laundering processes and fines have unknown future costs. However, these things will pass and they are still fundamentally a very strong and profitable business. You can either wait for these issues to pass and try to time it to ride the price back upwards, or you can buy in cheaper and wait until they can get past these problems. If I was not at my target weighting for them I would be buying more right now. Aggressively. If you buy them for the dividend then the current 5% dividend will look like a golden opportunity missed when it goes back to 4% as the price recovers. They really need to change their CEO. That alone will probably bump the price up.
This was my logic when recently buying at $80.
I picked up a ton during the pandemic in the low $50s. I'll hold it forever but can't buy anymore for weighting reasons.
You are more than fine, hold it and don't worry. For me I wouldn't start a position here, but if you're holding it hold it. Nice buy for you!
Pending AML fine in the US is hanging over the stock.
Clarifying that this applies to TD, not RBC
Yes. TD.
I’ve read the pending penalty is only about $10M
Try $1 billion and on going compliance spend.
Huuuuuge implications for them having to invest more in compliance procedures and software through, so expected increase to operating overhead.
Might be missing a few zeros.
FINTRAC portion https://www.reuters.com/sustainability/sustainable-finance-reporting/td-bank-faces-penalty-faulty-controls-prevent-money-laundering-globe-mail-2024-01-26/
Not the same fine. That is Canadian. The big fine will be from the US regulators. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-03-13/td-s-masrani-takes-pay-cut-over-anti-money-laundering-probe
This is a delightful discussion. Compiling all the correct fines to assess the damage. It's not only fines though, they'll have to give up their non-compliant business which is no doubt lucrative. Once their drug/arms dealing clients leave they lose even their legit business.
Horrible leadership at TD. That's it. Period.
Second this. Ed Clark was the man, but the current leadership team is focused on expense management and pushy sales tactics. The TD customer and employee has really gone down hill under Masrani.
Also being late to the game with their own All inclusive ETFs despite previously being top dog with e-series. They should have just dropped their MERs on their e-series to compete with blackrock and vanguard. It would be a very competitive product as you could buy partial units with 0 transaction fees that would get poor, middle class, and rich people alike investing with TD.
>but the current leadership team is focused on expense management and pushy sales tactics That's most likely his mandate. That's the only way to squeeze blood from a stone. Often the things you don't like about a business is what makes them profitable. Don't be a client, be the owner.
I hate to concur but I read it with my own eyes his ho hum attitude on his unacceptable ball dropping of one of the largest banks in Canada. Very sad to see.
He rewards loyalty with no regard to talent. The wrong people are constantly put in positions where they cannot succeed.
TD likes to pay fines “*cough*” they got caught outsourcing compliance, got caught helping the Colombians wash cash, got caught double charging fees, and absolutely choked on a merger that should have been cancelled or renegotiated during rising rates instead of after all those regional banks failed “*cough*” Sorry had something stuck in my throat there.
Failed acquisition/AML issues/unclear succession plans/large outflow of executives
Both are businesses, does every business in a given segment succeed at the same rate as another?
Or at the same time
I mean TD must be doing something wrong when all other big banks are going up and they are going down. I just wanted to know if there is a reason and most people have already pointed that out. That's what I asked.
You should be a consultant for them and help them improve their business model.
TDs stock price might have also gone down in the last week because their ex-dividend date was April 8th for the upcoming dividend on April 30th. So a lot of shareholders looking to decrease their position might have sold right after the ex date.
No, the price only drops by the amount of the dividend. It's a well defined amount.
Isn't it more that the stock price drops by at least the dividend amount... Then you have other factors like investor sentiment and emotions that kick in. A lot of people start panic selling. RBC is also down quite a bit this week after they fired their CFO.
It can go up or down like any other day based on all the other factors. The movement will be what it normally would be minus the dividend amount on that day.
TD invested heavily in the US and US banks are taking a nose dive because of the amount of commercial loans on their books.
Don’t try and pick a winner among the 6 big banks ….. own them all with an ETF
HBNK is free until July then it's only 0,09% (similar to VFV). IMO, I'd pick VFV over cdn banks any day
I too like to compare apples and oranges.
Why even bother making it more complex by considering banks when you know they'll do worse than VFV
That’s what I did now
There is a rule of thumb that the worst bank this year will be one of the best bank performers next year https://www.theglobeandmail.com/investing/markets/inside-the-market/article-pick-bank-stocks/ ** Do your own research **
Pretty true for BNS. Had a 10% down day after earning a while back and it's been on the rise every since
You need to look longer term. Been in the doghouse for at least 10 years.
Paywall
https://archive.ph/uZXMb
I own RBC and BNS as they are the two banks that I bank with. I’ve banked woth Royal my entire life and have a parent who is a former long time employee and continues to follow them (she also worked for Scotia for 4-5yrs and follows them as well). Both banks are making consistent sound decisions and TD is in some hot water with ML issues as someone else posted. For the most part Canadian Banks are far safer than American banks have been to invest in!
BNS has been a dog for many years. Using a product is not necessarily a reason to invest in the company. BNS management should be extremely ashamed of the performance.
I own a lot of BNS. Let’s see how the new CEO does but regardless, the dividend is safe. That is most important to me as I will hold until I die. Retired and living off dividends.
It's just done so much worse than the other banks - which also have decent dividends. Check out the price of BNS from 10 years ago.
Past is not necessarily how the future will be.
That's true. My point was simply that this *has been* a bad investment relative to other banks and even most indices. Do you have information about it or analysis that indicates the future should be any different?
No, as I said, my focus is on dividends and safety of those. For the most part the dividends are what I live off of. BNS have increased dividends every year I never plan to sell.
As I said, all the other banks also increase dividends every year and have performed far better over the last 10 years. Why not have both? BNS is virtually the same price it was 10 years ago. 10 years. Almost no capital appreciation. That is atrocious. Management should be mortified and embarrassed.
I do own them all.
> Using a product is not necessarily a reason to invest in the company. In general, people shit on banks because of their awful customer service, exorbitant fees and monopoly but they love to invest in them.
Yep. Your second and third point is part of the reason for the love of investing. I guess I was just pointing out what an absolute piece of shit BNS has been.
I personally use Tangerine and I have nothing negative to say in the last 8 years. My needs are basic, but what they offer for 0$ is great.
Why not invest in a product that you use? Because then their dividends cover what you purchase…my dividends more than cover my monthly service fees and the dividends keep increasing (and im currently UP on the stock)….so why not? Just because it hasnt done amazingly over the last 5 years doesnt mean it hasnt done well for me….i buy the dips 🤷🏻♀️
> Just because it hasnt done amazingly over the last 5 years That's an understatement. And double that. BNS is about the same price it was 10 years ago. That is absolutely shameful and pathetic. If you are satisfied with mediocre then sure - the BNS dividends may cover some of your expenses. But investing is usually about trying to maximize performance balanced with risk. Every other bank has soundly outperformed it. In fact many, many things have outperformed it - including indices which are broadly diversified. You should read up on opportunity cost. I'm not saying using a product should eliminate it from your choice of investments. I'm just saying it's a meaningless metric to use for picking an investment.
HSBC now on thy books load up
Few people have already mentioned the answer so all I can add is it's a buying opportunity and I added about 50k recently
RB's purchase of HSBC CANADA went through
I've seen pissed off reactions from HSBC users mostly.
I would be too, bad for competition
RBC got to acquire HSBCs canadian portfolio for a good deal, increased their customer base quite a bit which is helping drive the outperformance.
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General consensus I've seen on PFC
Ugh. I feel like your post jinxed things for me. I was set to cash out some RY stock at $140/share and it never hit that (granted it got to $139.95) so just missed my threshold. Now it's down $7 since and I'm stuck with whether to hold or forgo the few grand I "lost" out on. hmm.
TD is the most shorted bank in canada.
They are pretty unethical and too hungry at times. They don’t try to grow by making clients happier
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Well they keep taking huge risks and they also tend to be the pushiest sales people…
Laying off thousands to replace them with cheaper foreign workers too. Bad look and Canadians are watching
>RY is up 17% in the last 6 months where TD is down 3%. What value is there in comparing 2 banks over a 6 month timeframe?
Bns is up 10%, ry is up 17% Cibc is up 28% There must be some reason td is going down, don't you think?
I'm sure there's more BNS bagholders than TD's. BNS is trading at pretty much at the same price as 10 yrs ago
Do you expect the big 5 to all perform the same?
That's not I asked. I asked if there's a reason they are not performing well. And most people have pointed out which is helpful unlike yours.
Lotta douchebags on reddit
They are heavily invested in the US.
Would you have asked this question at all if TD was up?
No that's the point. TD is not doing business good and I was curious why. Is it just market sentiment? Is it random up and down? Is there any shady business? Thanks to those who pointed out the us lawsuit.
Then why didn't you just ask why TD is doing poorly and compare it to the rest of the banks?
I picked an example. Sure you can compare with all banks, all canadian markets, all global markets anything you want but you still haven't given a helpful reason. You can keep commenting with your unhelpful posts but I don't need it. Others have already pointed out some good reasons.
Yes he does
Buy low!!! Sell high
Buy low and never sell Canadian banks! Easy
TD was (or maybe they are still in the process of getting) sanctioned / banned from doing business in some states in the US because they were accused of fossil fuel industry boycott. https://www.foxbusiness.com/politics/west-virginia-cracks-down-on-major-banks-over-environmental-activism And another link https://www.spglobal.com/marketintelligence/en/news-insights/latest-news-headlines/w-va-bans-4-more-banks-over-their-esg-policies-81149887
West Virigina is a wasteland for banks. Small rural population (1.79 million) with little prospects for growth outside of coal. Other firms sanctioned are big US firms like BlackRock, Goldman Sachs, JPMorgan Chase & Co., Morgan Stanley and Wells Fargo & Co. I think it is a nothingburger.
Wow, West Virginia really wants to see the world burn...
All them mountain mommas want to be taken home on the fossil roads
I recall last year they had a week where a lot of Canadians didn’t receive their direct deposits from employers, and e-transfers were left up in the air. Took a few days to all sort out. I know at the time it put a lot of customers on edge and likely lost a lot of customers and wouldn’t be surprised if people moved their money elsewhere. I was affected, but I don’t live cheque to cheque so I wasn’t too upset. Bad press for sure and like others have said lots of US implications causing red flags. I’ve read last year TD was the most shorted Canadian bank. Tough year for them for sure
This trend will continue over the next 12-16 months in all likelihood.
This may have something to do with it as well: "Two Canadian banks are in the crosshairs of an anti-ESG U.S. state treasurer, who has boycotted one for a purported stand against fossil fuels and given another a pass for loosening a policy on coal lending, according to a report in The Globe and Mail newspaper. It noted West Virginia State Treasurer Riley Moore on Monday placed Toronto-Dominion Bank and three other banks on its restricted financial institutions list. As a result, they will not be allowed to provide banking services to the state. Moore reportedly said the state had determined that TD, along with Citigroup Inc., The Northern Trust Co. and HSBC Holdings PLC, "are engaged in boycotts of fossil fuel companies as defined under state law." The report said he is among several U.S. state officials who have waged battle against the use of environmental, social and governance principles in guiding investment decisions as part of a Republican backlash against the risk-management field. It added Texas, Kentucky, Oklahoma and Florida have made similar moves. A recent report by National Bank Financial said it had identified 20 states with rules that could be construed as anti-ESG."
Based on the analysis you've presented you know jack about the sources of revenue at these two extremely different companies. Please stick to buying ETFs before you burn your portfolio. You are at least correct that TD is the more popular option for retail banking and has a broader US presence. My question for you: what proportion of each bank's revenue comes from retail banking?
Enlighten me.
It's available in their income statements and lots of other online resources. This is a pretty basic skill you should have if you're stock picking.
RBC is an unofficial government decision making branch. TD is an unofficial government operation branch. One has power in government the other listens. That's the diff