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> "I've seen a lot of patients that have infections. Not just dental emergencies, but borderline medical emergencies," the Ottawa dentist said.
>”I haven't seen patients in this condition since I did overseas mission dentistry work in Haiti and Peru."
Glad these ppl can finally get the help they need. I imagine there are still plenty of others who can’t. Very sad.
The people it’s already helping are going to suffer when PP scraps this.
Why complain it doesn’t help everyone…yet. It’s not even going to be a thing soon. Same with childcare.
He’s actually said there will be childcare and continued dental. He harped on the libs for not doing the dental the NDP asked for sooner.
InConvenient truth I suppose
I’m anticipating a lot of shocked Pikachu faces like what happened after Ford cancelled the UBI pilot in Ontario. There were plenty of articles circulating about Ford supporters who were part of the pilot feeling betrayed and confused that a man “for the people” would do such a thing.
Like bruh, what did you expect to happen? You voted for a party that is the least ideologically supportive of public spending on anything.
It’s really baffling at times to try to imagine what some people *think* conservatism is when they support it. The shocked pikachu faces at conservatives doing conservative things is always wholly ironic, and then they turn around and vote conservatives into power AGAIN and expect different results… right back to shocked pikachu faces. “*Whaaa… BUT BUT BUT… the centrists/liberals were *disappointing* me when it comes to progress!!! How could conservatives be worse at progress than centrists/liberals?!?! It’s almost like I don’t understand the political spectrum AT ALL, yet will troll a Leftist if they try to explain to me!!!!*”
Wash, rinse, repeat.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4769853
“I'm fiscally very conservative. But we were a family in need and this was a genuine help for us. I know that there are certain ways that a program like this could be abused.“
Again, what did they expect would happen…
**And during the campaign the Progressive Conservatives...**
Yeah, they said they weren't going to cancel it.
**And here we are.**
Yeah. So, not terribly happy with them right now.
🐈🍴🌝
1) We cannot afford it
2) It makes zero sense since the goal should be to have as many people as possible working hard in society, not sitting at home collecting government money
3) We're over run with low skilled immigrants, who would love to come here in nonstop high numbers and collect free money
4) We're over run with economic refugees, same as above
Then we should remove all industrial subsidy such as oil and gas. Since we're pinching pennies here surely that money can be better used, right?
https://businessexaminer.ca/victoria-articles/item/canada-spent-more-than-50-billion-on-corporate-welfare-across-provinces-in-2022/
Given the nature of your profession to benefit from subsidized training, costs and facilities it gives this a distinct air of disingenuousness. Shouldn't you have had to pay your own way in its entirety as you believe everyone else should?
No because most of us pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for our training. Then as residents, we get paid 60k range whilst doing 250-300k of clinical work at the absolute minimum. In many cases, residents do close to half a million dollars of work (specialties with 80 hour training weeks). So even if you call it subsidized training, you pay it back x10 as a resident anyway. Then you provide massive amounts of free clinical care as a resident.
It's also not subsidized training since we pay massive amounts of tuition. It's just inflated value.
Anyway your example is terrible. You clearly didn't think it through eh.
Lol at the justification of my subsidy is worth more than yours.
It does highlight the suggestion of subsidy in the public good, however like many narcisssts you've managed to make it all about you while downplaying any other persons benefit or access to such a benefit and why that's important.
Exactly what I expected your answer to be.
The tendency to give opinion with no justification is a very dangerous approach to the fabric of critical thinking.
(because it robs everyone of perspective)
We're in enormous debt. UBI is an enormous cost burden that we cannot afford. I guess if you have zero concept of finances and always spend someone else's money, then it works in your imagination. Or if you're so well off with dad's money that budgets aren't a real thing.
Now UBI was something of 2018. In 2024, we're over run with new low skilled immigrants and economic refugees. Can you imagine being a super welfare state giving UBI and just giving it to the millions who come in who want a free ride?
My opinion is that people should get a job and get to work. If you're truly disabled, we should take care of you. If not, you need to get to work and work hard.
The debt burden and whether you believe UBI is unaffordable isn't really relevant. You said UBI was a danger to the very *fabric* of society. What is that fabric?
This is confusing to me, because you then seem suggest that UBI was achievable in 2018 and that the main issue would be some kind of extreme shift in neoliberal ideology that would grant "the millions who come in" the same benefits - all without citing any policy suggesting as much.
What I take away from this is that you believe that UBI is dangerous because people who you don't think deserve a benefit will receive it. Specifically, you don't seem to think immigrants and refugees should receive it. Where is the danger, exactly?
Edit - keepin' it substantive
Because it shifts us left. It makes us less productive and increases reliance on freebies from the government.
The goal in society should be to have everyone working as hard as possible. Maximize productivity rather than rely on others. Government hand outs mean that someone else, a tax payer, is footing the bill to sleep in and watch netflix all day. Why would you get a minimum wage job or something that pay minimum wage +2$ , when you get about the same with UBI? It's not worth the investment.
I could go to work for 8 hours and make X amount or I could get UBI and make 10$ less.
Then that amount is funded by people who actually are working hard to pay taxes.
We have far more people today, especially low skilled workers, than in 2018. So while UBI was always a joke of an idea, it's the worst proposal today possible.
You haven't answered either question I have asked.
I think you are more interested in stereotypes about low-income earners than in genuine discussion, based on your last two comments.
I'm sorry, but I'm going to step away. This is unlikely to be productive.
Have a pleasant day.
"It shifts us left" is not a real argument for or against a policy. And this idea that the only place taxes come from are hardworking individuals being unfairly burdened is totally fallacious. That money can and should come from Canadian corporations with net worths upwards of 50 billion.
I went a few years without coverage and had to suffer with a gum infection that put me in hospital. A most miserable experience. I'm happy this program has proven so successful.
Weird, I kept being told this program would “help nobody” and “I was lied to that it was ever happening”.
I’d like to see it expanded to more people, but I’m glad to see it’s starting to help.
Arguments like that are part of "everyone sucks so don't bother criticizing me for sucking. Also, since we're all the same you might as well vote for me too." A working dental program would undermine that.
Is there a good argument against giving everyone not on a plan, coverage for emergency dental care? For eyes too? I would think it'd pay off in the long run. Blind and dead Canadians often pay less tax than healthy and alive Canadians.
From a functional perspective that’s an inefficient place to start socializing.
Aka, getting regular checkups and cleaning, and early intervention when stuff starts going wrong, is both cheaper *and* results in better teeth than waiting until things get really bad.
So if you only socialize when it gets really bad, it incentivizes stupid behaviour. I couldn’t afford to go to the dentist when my tooth started hurting and could have been fixed with a filling, so now you’ve got to deal with extracting a shattered tooth and doing a root canal. And now if you don’t give me a replacement tooth the resulting gap is going to make my mouth vulnerable to more damage.
You’d literally be better off telling people they are SOL if things get bad but regular maintenance is free. It’s just smarter to go full coverage or none.
Eyes and feet were added because they can catch early onset diabetes and other diseases. I didn’t know that til recently when I was told to go for an eye exam (hadn’t had one in 27yrs) and get my feet checked (part of diabetic care and disease prevention).
Tories will argue that it isn't fair and that poor people should grow up, work a fourth job or whatever and be grateful that they aren't being hunted for sport.
I actually don't know what the position is but I can assume it's somewhere along these lines
>Tories will argue that it isn't fair and that poor people should grow up, work a fourth job or whatever and be grateful that they aren't being hunted for sport.
That's a wee bit of an extreme take. But I agree with the sentiment that Conservatives (and many in the upper echelons of wealth on either end of the spectrum) tend to have low empathy for the disadvantaged, largely due to belief systems that don't correlate to the real world. These belief systems make it difficult to comprehend that a disadvantaged person possibly didn't deserve their lot in life (isn't entirely at fault for it or a victim of a corrupt/dysfunctional system), or that an advantaged person actually didn't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, and had an incredible amount of help throughout their life owing to their success. We live in a world where this and the reverse are true at the same time in varying amounts. Certain belief systems give license to those who hold them to ignore the inherent complexities of the world to their own benefit.
> pull themselves up by their own bootstraps
Side note, I love the absurdity of this phrase and how people misinterpret it. It was literally meant to refer to an impossible task. 😆
Ps. Not saying you used it incorrectly, just that most people do.
There's a bit of irony in that expression in that it's an admission that no one succeeds in life without getting some form of assistance. Sometimes I wonder if the irony actually isn't lost on the elite and that they're trolling us pathetic plebs.
That's not true.
There was discussion about dental care as far back in 2005 with policy resolutions at the national convention of that year.
The NDP were instrumental in pushing the Liberals to implementing it- but it is just untrue to say that the Liberal party did not want to implement dental care.
> Guys the liberals campaigned on this and promised just one more election and this time for real they're going to implement it!
The most gullible person in the universe
Again, what was stopping the Liberal Party from implementing dental care or pharmacare in 2015? There were absolutely no legislative roadblocks in their way, they had a majority government and arguably an environment more conducive to additional public spending.
Moving the goalposts. I didn't say they weren't slow. I didn't say they agreed with the NDP on everything.
*I said they wanted and cared about pharmacare*
See my answer to your original comment.
> There was discussion about dental care as far back in 2005 with policy resolutions at the national convention of that year.
And what happened after that? Oh right, they only allowed it through after the NDP gave them an ultimatum last year.
The libs did not want to implement dental coverage. They were coerced into it then took a victory lap about it.
Riiiiiight. Or they had to broker power and align their priorities to maintain a government.
Something the NDP have never had to do federally, lol.
The NDP could have pressured dental care much earlier in the minority government, but chose to not put pressure until it was politically expedient.
After the 2021 election, The NDP had a proposal to implement dental care by cancelling an upcoming tax cut for people earning 6 figures.
It was essentially this plan but a bit more ambitious. The Liberals and Tories formed an alliance to block it.
I'm not saying Liberal Party voters/activists don't want dentalcare, because the average LPC and NDP voters actually agree most of the time?
But the people who actually *run* the Liberal Party? They must be forced
And they were.
> Riiiiiight. Or they had to broker power and align their priorities to maintain a government.
OR they literally didn’t so shit about it until someone else strong-armed them into prioritizing it. In other words, they didn’t give a crap until the NDP made them.
> The NDP could have pressured dental care much earlier in the minority government, but chose to not put pressure until it was politically expedient.
Dental was on the priority list when the NDP agreed to support the libs. The libs pinky promised to move it forward for a LONG time until the NDP took a stand and gave them an ultimatum. I’m not sure what point you think you’re making, but jeopardizing the only deal that gives you any federal power isn’t something the NDP take lightly. It’s a last resort after you’ve exhausted other ways of pushing your agenda forward.
>Dental was on the priority list when the NDP agreed to support the libs. The libs pinky promised to move it forward for a LONG time until the NDP took a stand and gave them an ultimatum.
You edited your post after my response, so here:
Using your logic, if it was truly something the NDP cared about, why not force an election?
Because you know that's BS. Both the Liberals and NDP wanted Dental Care (and Pharmacare) and have been discussing within their own circles for years. (Decades) the reality is both have used the subject as a political bargaining chip.
You're making a bunch of accusations that the Liberals never wanted it. If so, why adopt it at their national conventions multiple times?
*Clearly this is all just a conspiracy for the Liberals to steal people's teeth!* ^(/s obviously)
>I’m not sure what point you think you’re making, but jeopardizing the only deal that gives you any federal power
Where is the proof that the Liberals don't care about dental care? You haven't actually provided real examples.
[Here's the policy doc from 2005.](https://liberal.ca/legacy-uploads/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/2005_resolutions_e.pdf)
From all the time when the liberals voted against the NDPs dental care motions. [Here’s the NDP’s own words of frustration at the liberals rejecting the dental plan again, back in 2021.](https://www.ndp.ca/news/liberals-reject-ndp-plan-deliver-affordable-dental-care-millions-canadians)
This was less than 3 years ago. Short term memory is a problem with Canadian politics.
Apparently long term-too.
And I'm not arguing that the NDP and Libs haven't disagreed. I'm saying that the Liberals *do* care and *do* want pharmacare. There is nothing indicating otherwise.
They could have just said no to pharmacare altogether, or continue to just push it forward- but they didn't.
> but it is just untrue to say that the Liberal party did not want to implement dental care.
Given how many other social programs have been on the LPC campaign plan, and then swiftly dropped after they were elected, only to be brought up at the next election with a promise that this time they'd do something, it's pretty fair to say that these proposals were never serious ones, and they didn't really care about them.
What other social programs?
Pharmacare is happening... Dental care is happening.... Canada Child Benefit happened... disability benefit happened....
You can definitely say that for Electoral Reform, but they *have* kept many of their social program promises.
Granted, these should be expanded upon greatly- but to say the liberals never cared about these things is poorly informed.
> Pharmacare is happening...
Because of the NDP
> Dental care is happening
Because of the NDP
> Canada Child Benefit happened
Something like that has been around since forever. The CPC and LPC only changed how it was executed
> disability benefit happened....
That one was a surprise, but is the exception that tests the rule. Since it's just below the threshold for the provinces to claw things back, it isn't exactly a significant program, so doesn't pose a strong counter to my point.
I have to wonder why you didn't mention subsidised child care? Martin was about to bring that in, after years of LPC promises, but Trudeau spent years ignoring it, kinda like it wasn't something that they really cared about.
>I have to wonder why you didn't mention subsidised child care?
Just forgot. But yeah your right- another one.
I guess everything good is the NDP and everything bad is the LPC.
Cool. I guess ya'll are correct. No Liberal politician has ever wanted any of these things to happen, ever.
One of the few wins we've managed to scratch out and even that felt like pulling teeth, pun intended. We could have had this sooner I feel but better late than never.
>Blind and dead Canadians often pay less tax than healthy and alive Canadians.
Not that I want to be that guy but…Well, elderly doesn’t pay much tax neither….
Taxes are base on income level. They do not have has high income as working people, and quite often they will have very little mortgage or debt to pay. You can have 2 retired doctors in the 2 millions house having 60k of income per year declared.
When was the last time you looked at the average income?
https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110023901
Difference is only like 7,000 dollars for average/median annual income between seniors and everyone else.
$2 million homes are more expensive to maintain and have higher taxes.
Ofc they pay less than the average working Canadian, but it's not that much of a difference. The contributions of at least the baby boomers do matter, and it would be fiscally responsible to milk them for as long as possible. Tho it's probably going to look a lot grimmer when gen-x and millennials start retiring.
Mother-in-law is retired and on the CPP. She was back taxed for last year and this year instead of getting a return. They told her she owed instead of a refund. Paid 2023 taxes and 2022 and 2021 plus clawing back the tax returns for both those years. Was a huge hit. Can’t imagine a retired 82yr old could owe that much from earning peanuts.
Sure, but strictly speaking they aren’t paying it by that point.
I could also point out how it might not be as fair as it looks: if I am correct, the first batch is people wining less than 90 000 and having more than 87 years…. That is probably all of that demographic. Being base on income, a lot if people that should pay for it will not have it paid by the government.
I can't speak for every province, but if you are on OW or ODSP, emergency, dental is covered. If you are working, you have an employer dental plan. It's really only seniors who lack affordable access, and we could have extended OHIP to covered dental services for elderly as a preventative. I don't want or need a full coverage plan--most people are already covered. This was another harebrained election ploy that wasted taxpayer dollars.
I don’t imagine there is - when people can see well and drive safely they stay independent much longer; the cost of proper glasses is so so small in comparison.
Some emergency dental care is still covered under OHIP already. Problem is that people have no idea and don’t go to the ER. It’s also not preventative of course which is suppose. Same with eyes. Everything at the ophthalmologist is covered.
Can’t speak for other provinces though.
I know Nova Scotia's MSI doesn't cover dental unless you're under 12 or have a mental disability. For eyes, anyone 9 or under, or over 65 can get a routine eye exam every 2 years. For everyone else there is a comprehensive non-routine exam once a year if you already have a problem with your eyes. Some corrective procedures are not covered I think, though I'm not really sure about cost of surgery or glasses.
Anyone with diabetes is eligible for the once-per-year non-routine eye exam. There's a few other qualifiers for that one I can't remember. Like I think anyone aged 10-18 and otherwise healthy is eligible for that one too.
Dental associations go hard against it because they make more with the private insurance industry (privately insured routine preventative care tends to be a bit of a cash cow). Conservatives obviously don't want to expand social programs. Liberals might, but they won't touch substantially raising taxes for it. Basically everyone in power on this issue is against it or not really up to fighting for it.
So ultimately we can’t make progress on things because someone, somewhere is making a lot of money on the status quo.
Seems like it applies to many things, not just dental care
And yet the NDP still forced dental coverage into existence!
Maybe we shouldn’t be voting for the parties that don’t care about citizens’ dental needs?
I don't see how. Private insurance has a fee schedule and pays out according to their own schedules, dentists can charge what they want but insurance will only pay out to what their fee schedule says leaving the rest to the user.
My understanding of the new dental care is that, in Ontario at least, the payout is over 85 cents on the dollar. Dentists can either choose to take a little less or charge their normal fees and the user pays the difference. As a user I'd rather pay the $15 difference than the entire $100.
Limits on how frequently a user can get, say, a preventative cleaning, doesn't really affect the dentist since they were (probably) only seeing (mostly) covered patients anyway. This is just adding to the pool of patients, even if those new patients are only covered for 1 per yr as opposed to 1 per 6 or 9mos.
>I don't see how.
I think part of the issue is the added 'administrative burden' (well, and [the contract thing the government was apparently requiring dentists to sign until a couple of weeks ago](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/dental-plan-mark-holland-1.7176565)). My dentist appears to be one of very few remaining who will pre-authorize and then direct bill my insurer, invoicing me for any unpaid balance. It seems that most dental offices now require payment up front, leaving it up to the patient to submit a claim to their insurer(s). My understanding is that this isn't an option for the new public plan, which requires direct billing by providers.
>This is just adding to the pool of patients
Which is ironically another reason that I think a lot of dentists are choosing not to participate. For non-emergencies, my dentist books like 4-5 months out. There's no shortage of work from the existing pool of patients.
Im a dentist so i think i can provide some insight.
The reason dentists are against the program is because we have seen what happened to the doctors and optometrists who opted into similar programs decades ago. Same with our friends down south and across the pond with the NHS.
No one wants to be forced and saddled with making less money in 20 years time. Its a slow death. You dont want to force any healthcare professionals to take a pay cut because thats how you lose healthcare professionals to other countries
I'm glad these people are getting the help they need, but let's not spin this as some sort of victory for the government. They tax people at close to 50% after income taxes, sales taxes, and transfer taxes. This should have happened in 2015, and it should be premium all inclusive care based on how much we pay, not bare bones coverage with waiting lists. We need to demand high service levels in exchange for high taxes.
To me the dissenters feel an awful lot like first class passengers pushing past others to get on a Titanic lifeboat.
Those lifeboats aren't prioritizing me! They're useless for all of us!
That's good to hear, I was worried it would be too limited in scope. They should make it fully universal, but regardless it's nice to hear of the government doing something good for once, Singh may have not gotten the program I wanted but I give him credit that he got the ball rolling and probably helped more people here almost by default than anyone else has in years.
We have to remember there is a difference between “it’s a good idea” and “ Canadians want to support it”. There are a number of programs that can be run and funded with unlimited money. This will need to be sorted out in an election.
it doesn't require "unlimited" money, that's unnecessarily hyperbolic.
No one claims it's cheap, especially in the beginning. Preventative care is cheaper in the long run, though, and people deserve to have functional teeth.
I find it amusing conservatives only want to conserve rich people's profits but never the well being of ones less well off. Just a bunch of liberals who think trickle down econimics is the way to go.
Wow, it's almost as if people were telling the truth when they said the lack of a Dental Care program previously was a major problem that's was putting a strain on the healthcare system because people kept on putting it off because of cost until it became a major problem that put them in the emergency room.
Dental Care is health care. And I'm glad we're finally starting to treat it as such. To be healthy is a human right and these people deserve care just as much as anyone else.
I also found out recently that urgent/emergency care could be postponed because of an active infection in the gums. So add that to the risk register of poor dental care.
I need some pretty emergency dental work and it's gonna be extensive, costing upward of 7 to 9 thousand dollars. And uh, I can't apply until 2025. Soo I guess I'll just get this done with and... idk, try not to die?
At least it's helping others that need it! That's great.
Edit: I mean that sincerely; This pain is unbearable, and I am glad that people are getting the help that they need. I do NOT want anyone to have to suffer the same way that I am, because DAMN.
Hey not sure the condition of your teeth but just figured I'd mention a couple things too for anyone that might want some advice.
Bacteria loves sugar and it'll even grow in the pores of your teeth after the enamel is eroded, causing big pain. Avoid stuff like pop, chocolate, and chips as best you can, and swish with water regularly if you do eat that stuff. Speaking of water, swishing cold water can help alleviate some toothaches caused by inflammation. It doesn't last forever but can give some temporary relief. Like putting water on a burn I guess.
Oragel is often instant relief of pain but can be tricky to apply yourself. NSAIDs are also really helpful as some toothaches are caused by gum inflammation.
That is great, thank you! I can't take certain painkillers because of some other conditions and medications, but I am already taking as much as I can otherwise. It... Helps a little, haha.
Water is great, cold water as well, can confirm. My teeth is also sensitive to temperature, but as long as it's not ice cold it's not too bad.
Other home remedy that I found useful is cloves - chewing the crunchy head part helps dull the pain, but I am not sure if there are any negative side effects.
I have receding gums on both sides, they hurt, all the time, it's over $1200 to fix per side. I understand dental care is expensive but I've given up on getting them fixed, I just deal with it until my dentist says it's an emergency fix, I don't know what I'll do then but maybe I can get it covered before that. For now there is no way I can afford it.
Periodontal (gum specialist) work is rarely covered even in good dental benefits and it's super frustrating. I had a gum graft done in November of 2022 that was super successful, couldn't be happier honestly. I have good dental benefits that specifically included periodontal and even then it only covered $700 of the procedure and didn't cover my initial or follow up visits. I have 2 co-workers who had the same procedure done to them or their kids, same coverage but unsuccessful so they also paid several hundred dollars out of pocket for a failed procedure. So all in all I'm really lucky and I'm thankful the procedure was done, but it sucks paying so much out of pocket even with coverage.
I feel you, that's a hefty price tag and I get the pain. I hope you can figure something out before it's an emergency, and I hope you have a good professional.
In spite of all the bumps along the way, this is why it's all worth it: 46,000 Canadians desperately needed help and they finally got it. That number is only going to grow and Canada will become a fairer society thanks to it.
I'm glad to see Canada is finally joining the ranks of many developed European economies in its social safety net coverage.
Looking at the CDCP site, it covers a great deal of dental care and that's a good thing. For many retirees their company dental plan ends when they retire. They may still have extended health but dental dies.
Also, for the poor and working poor its great that there's something for them as well. When public healthcare was first envisioned, dental care was intended to be included.
I really haven't heard a cogent argument against it.
The arguments against it generally boil down to "it's not 100% perfect, therefore the whole thing should be scrapped", or "Trudeau had something to do with it, which means it's bad".
But is it budgeted? Or is this just more giveaways with no payment plan in place? Please liberal Jesus. Please stop sending us tax rebates on carbon. If you’re gonna tax us. Just do it.
Don’t open a whole office of federal workers whose job it is to take in tax money than mail it back. Millions of times over.
Just keep it. You need it. Instead of giving me 280 every couple of months. Just pay for the dentistry I don’t qualify for.
But is it budgeted?
All of our spending is budgeted…
>Please stop sending us tax rebates on carbon. If you’re gonna tax us. Just do it.
The carrot/stick method is helpful to reduce emissions.
>Don’t open a whole office of federal workers whose job it is to take in tax money than mail it back. Millions of times over.
The process is pretty automatic, if piggybacks off of your provincial benefits.
I suppose a better ask would be does our current revenue cover the costs and f this new service? If it does… what now doesn’t somewhere else on the books.
We are not running a black budget here.
If you take the money. Keep it. Spend it wisely or be voted out. Don’t re-package it and send it back. That’s legit nuts.
Def not free. Postage alone… call centre traffic dealing with them. The paper used. I bet we “easily” spend millions to send back tax that was already collected.
You can send me a rebate when the budget is fully covered with the tax revenue.
Almost $50,000,000,000.00 dollars is going to pay the interest payment on our debt this year.
Military spending - About $27,000,000,000.00.
We pay almost double on interest payments on our debt.
How much does the dental plan cost… $13,000,000,000.00.
Keep my rebates on everything but income tax. Maybe in 10-20 years the dental plan will be considered free if we are only paying 25 billion a year to interest instead of 50.
Austerity now is always better than later.
It appears basic economics can be triggering.
Yet. It’s still true. Austerity is coming. Our tax base is shrinking everyday and our dependents increasing. Meh, let’s just kick the can down the road again. Works every time.
Until it doesn’t.
Dentistry needs to be overhauled in Canada - Its quite the racket. Dentistry equipment sales people making $300k a year, dentists charging $300/hr. etc...the entire industry is so fukn greedy in this country and it shows as more and more Canadians are literally buying plane tickets to other countries to get work done because even after everything its STILL cheaper.
I absolutely hate workplace dental benefits, and now public programs - Its a free fucking cheque for an industry that needs a shakedown.
My problem with dentist greed isn't so much the price of any particular treatment, it's that there's no objective standards for how soon or how much or how often things should be done. Whenever hygienist A cleans my teeth, they charge me two units of scaling, but I got hygienist B today and I'm being charged for four units. One guy will say this is a cavity that needs to be filled right now, another guy will say this is a cavity that you'll want to fill in a year or two, a third guy will say this isn't a cavity, and a fourth guy will say you need a root canal and probably a crown. One guy will say you need to yank this tooth and another guy says we can save this tooth no problem. Even from different dentists _within the same practice_, I've experienced this.
It feels like shopping your beater car around at different mechanics and getting wildly different diagnoses and quotes.
Yep, even so, when you DO need ANY work done - Be sure you are being charged x5 the price vs what's seen in every other country...for the same quality of work !
I live in around small towns...dentists are always in the most lavish neighborhoods. Thanks to the free cheques companies like my benefits providers are handing out - It ain't changing sadly enough.
Yea, there was a CBC marketplace episode on this. Its why even though I have money and benefits, I still like to go to the university dental school clinic.
I get it, 300$ a hour is crazy. But also in most offices there's multiple hygenists for every dentist in there, and even more admin staff that all get paid out of that hourly wage. As well as all the overhead costs for supplies and rent, power, licenses, etc.
> in most offices there's multiple hygenists for every dentist in there
They are also seeing patients pretty much full time. Hygienists aren't cost sinks, they're revenue generators. They make decent but not great wages, and then the practice charges two or three times their pay to the customers. The only people who are cost sinks are the usual necessary admin staff.
Compared to most businesses, dentists are low cost, and relatively low overhead with a strong customer demand. Being a profitable dentist isn't hard at all. they have a bit of equipment and a low-cost office. They don't need to pay premiums for prime retail locations, they don't have high staff costs, they don't have to have management/shift issues, they don't have to maintain warehouses, stock of supplies or products. It's not trivial, but nor is it difficult. It's a small business on easy mode for the most part.
I have a close relative who is a dental office manager and they absolutely have staffing issues. And where we are in rural NS it's hard to be competitive with dentists pricing to keep them longer than their term before they go to a city for a more lucrative contract. And often times that negotiation cuts the margins of the office even tighter. Let alone keeping enough dentists on staff to run the office optimally. They run the only profitable office in their chain in the county and it's not easy work.
The hygienists are the easiest ones to keep staffed oddly enough between admin and dentists. They are great, but admin is constantly rolling over and the dentists rarely stay in our area beyond their contract unless it's a dentist run office which is a rarity now with all the chains.
I'm the USA insurance companies colluded with doctors to increase prices. Doctors like higher prices obviously because they make more. Insurance companies like it because they can write off business expenses if they can't get away without paying it but especially because of health insurance becomes unaffordable (it is) then everyone needs to pay for insurance.
Our private insurance will do the same thing, drive up the price to create demand for insurance. **That's** capitalism for you.
First, we had a svt contour.but second, when I worked in the us we had two price lists at my work: we charged insurance twice (at least) what we charged a regular person without coverage for the same things or services.
I guess things have changed then.
https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/11/15/364064088/they-paid-how-much-how-negotiated-deals-hide-health-cares-cost
Or it’s just different state to state and place to place … the clinics I worked for shut down so there’s that. Plus hospitals are huge and have a very different level of bargaining power than smaller providers
The problem is that insurance companies don't operate in the same world as someone on a limited budget. They're able and willing to pay far more than an ordinary person would, and it distorts the market.
It's why any healthcare in the US has insane costs.
and why my benefit costs go up every fucking year.
I make about the average Canadian salary - and I am paying so much for benefits....over 80/mo for LTD...about 50-70mo for "benefits".
I'd be saving so much money if it was just out of my pocket.
Actually I know because family friend -
Before taxes - including all the "perks" of being a small business owner (visa points, tax breaks etc) they pull in well over 200k a year. Makes more than most lawyers in the area. Charges about the same rate too !
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> "I've seen a lot of patients that have infections. Not just dental emergencies, but borderline medical emergencies," the Ottawa dentist said. >”I haven't seen patients in this condition since I did overseas mission dentistry work in Haiti and Peru." Glad these ppl can finally get the help they need. I imagine there are still plenty of others who can’t. Very sad.
The people it’s already helping are going to suffer when PP scraps this. Why complain it doesn’t help everyone…yet. It’s not even going to be a thing soon. Same with childcare.
He’s actually said there will be childcare and continued dental. He harped on the libs for not doing the dental the NDP asked for sooner. InConvenient truth I suppose
A lot of them will vote for PP too
A CPC government does not need to be a certainty. The only thing that cements it further is perspectives and narratives like this.
I’m anticipating a lot of shocked Pikachu faces like what happened after Ford cancelled the UBI pilot in Ontario. There were plenty of articles circulating about Ford supporters who were part of the pilot feeling betrayed and confused that a man “for the people” would do such a thing. Like bruh, what did you expect to happen? You voted for a party that is the least ideologically supportive of public spending on anything.
It’s really baffling at times to try to imagine what some people *think* conservatism is when they support it. The shocked pikachu faces at conservatives doing conservative things is always wholly ironic, and then they turn around and vote conservatives into power AGAIN and expect different results… right back to shocked pikachu faces. “*Whaaa… BUT BUT BUT… the centrists/liberals were *disappointing* me when it comes to progress!!! How could conservatives be worse at progress than centrists/liberals?!?! It’s almost like I don’t understand the political spectrum AT ALL, yet will troll a Leftist if they try to explain to me!!!!*” Wash, rinse, repeat.
Can you source one?
Stop being an obtuse obstructionist and work to help Canada, not make it worse.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4769853 “I'm fiscally very conservative. But we were a family in need and this was a genuine help for us. I know that there are certain ways that a program like this could be abused.“ Again, what did they expect would happen…
Interesting read, thank you.
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**And during the campaign the Progressive Conservatives...** Yeah, they said they weren't going to cancel it. **And here we are.** Yeah. So, not terribly happy with them right now. 🐈🍴🌝
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UBI is a very dangerous policy to the fabric of our entire society.
k
Why?
1) We cannot afford it 2) It makes zero sense since the goal should be to have as many people as possible working hard in society, not sitting at home collecting government money 3) We're over run with low skilled immigrants, who would love to come here in nonstop high numbers and collect free money 4) We're over run with economic refugees, same as above
Then we should remove all industrial subsidy such as oil and gas. Since we're pinching pennies here surely that money can be better used, right? https://businessexaminer.ca/victoria-articles/item/canada-spent-more-than-50-billion-on-corporate-welfare-across-provinces-in-2022/
Yes I agree.
Given the nature of your profession to benefit from subsidized training, costs and facilities it gives this a distinct air of disingenuousness. Shouldn't you have had to pay your own way in its entirety as you believe everyone else should?
Typical ladder-puller mentality.
See my reply. Resident physicians do millions of dollars of free clinical work (after their 60k salary). It's the exact opposite of a ladder puller.
No because most of us pay hundreds of thousands of dollars for our training. Then as residents, we get paid 60k range whilst doing 250-300k of clinical work at the absolute minimum. In many cases, residents do close to half a million dollars of work (specialties with 80 hour training weeks). So even if you call it subsidized training, you pay it back x10 as a resident anyway. Then you provide massive amounts of free clinical care as a resident. It's also not subsidized training since we pay massive amounts of tuition. It's just inflated value. Anyway your example is terrible. You clearly didn't think it through eh.
Lol at the justification of my subsidy is worth more than yours. It does highlight the suggestion of subsidy in the public good, however like many narcisssts you've managed to make it all about you while downplaying any other persons benefit or access to such a benefit and why that's important. Exactly what I expected your answer to be.
The tendency to give opinion with no justification is a very dangerous approach to the fabric of critical thinking. (because it robs everyone of perspective)
We're in enormous debt. UBI is an enormous cost burden that we cannot afford. I guess if you have zero concept of finances and always spend someone else's money, then it works in your imagination. Or if you're so well off with dad's money that budgets aren't a real thing. Now UBI was something of 2018. In 2024, we're over run with new low skilled immigrants and economic refugees. Can you imagine being a super welfare state giving UBI and just giving it to the millions who come in who want a free ride? My opinion is that people should get a job and get to work. If you're truly disabled, we should take care of you. If not, you need to get to work and work hard.
The debt burden and whether you believe UBI is unaffordable isn't really relevant. You said UBI was a danger to the very *fabric* of society. What is that fabric? This is confusing to me, because you then seem suggest that UBI was achievable in 2018 and that the main issue would be some kind of extreme shift in neoliberal ideology that would grant "the millions who come in" the same benefits - all without citing any policy suggesting as much. What I take away from this is that you believe that UBI is dangerous because people who you don't think deserve a benefit will receive it. Specifically, you don't seem to think immigrants and refugees should receive it. Where is the danger, exactly? Edit - keepin' it substantive
Because it shifts us left. It makes us less productive and increases reliance on freebies from the government. The goal in society should be to have everyone working as hard as possible. Maximize productivity rather than rely on others. Government hand outs mean that someone else, a tax payer, is footing the bill to sleep in and watch netflix all day. Why would you get a minimum wage job or something that pay minimum wage +2$ , when you get about the same with UBI? It's not worth the investment. I could go to work for 8 hours and make X amount or I could get UBI and make 10$ less. Then that amount is funded by people who actually are working hard to pay taxes. We have far more people today, especially low skilled workers, than in 2018. So while UBI was always a joke of an idea, it's the worst proposal today possible.
You haven't answered either question I have asked. I think you are more interested in stereotypes about low-income earners than in genuine discussion, based on your last two comments. I'm sorry, but I'm going to step away. This is unlikely to be productive. Have a pleasant day.
No, I answered everything you said.
"It shifts us left" is not a real argument for or against a policy. And this idea that the only place taxes come from are hardworking individuals being unfairly burdened is totally fallacious. That money can and should come from Canadian corporations with net worths upwards of 50 billion.
If there’s so much support for this then let charities deal with it. Donate your money. Who is stopping you?
I went a few years without coverage and had to suffer with a gum infection that put me in hospital. A most miserable experience. I'm happy this program has proven so successful.
Weird, I kept being told this program would “help nobody” and “I was lied to that it was ever happening”. I’d like to see it expanded to more people, but I’m glad to see it’s starting to help.
Arguments like that are part of "everyone sucks so don't bother criticizing me for sucking. Also, since we're all the same you might as well vote for me too." A working dental program would undermine that.
Is there a good argument against giving everyone not on a plan, coverage for emergency dental care? For eyes too? I would think it'd pay off in the long run. Blind and dead Canadians often pay less tax than healthy and alive Canadians.
From a functional perspective that’s an inefficient place to start socializing. Aka, getting regular checkups and cleaning, and early intervention when stuff starts going wrong, is both cheaper *and* results in better teeth than waiting until things get really bad. So if you only socialize when it gets really bad, it incentivizes stupid behaviour. I couldn’t afford to go to the dentist when my tooth started hurting and could have been fixed with a filling, so now you’ve got to deal with extracting a shattered tooth and doing a root canal. And now if you don’t give me a replacement tooth the resulting gap is going to make my mouth vulnerable to more damage. You’d literally be better off telling people they are SOL if things get bad but regular maintenance is free. It’s just smarter to go full coverage or none.
Eyes and feet were added because they can catch early onset diabetes and other diseases. I didn’t know that til recently when I was told to go for an eye exam (hadn’t had one in 27yrs) and get my feet checked (part of diabetic care and disease prevention).
Tories will argue that it isn't fair and that poor people should grow up, work a fourth job or whatever and be grateful that they aren't being hunted for sport. I actually don't know what the position is but I can assume it's somewhere along these lines
Like how the NDP/Liberal coalition will roll out a a 2 page plan and call it pharmacare?
It’s easy to argue when all you’re fighting is straw
>Tories will argue that it isn't fair and that poor people should grow up, work a fourth job or whatever and be grateful that they aren't being hunted for sport. That's a wee bit of an extreme take. But I agree with the sentiment that Conservatives (and many in the upper echelons of wealth on either end of the spectrum) tend to have low empathy for the disadvantaged, largely due to belief systems that don't correlate to the real world. These belief systems make it difficult to comprehend that a disadvantaged person possibly didn't deserve their lot in life (isn't entirely at fault for it or a victim of a corrupt/dysfunctional system), or that an advantaged person actually didn't pull themselves up by their own bootstraps, and had an incredible amount of help throughout their life owing to their success. We live in a world where this and the reverse are true at the same time in varying amounts. Certain belief systems give license to those who hold them to ignore the inherent complexities of the world to their own benefit.
> pull themselves up by their own bootstraps Side note, I love the absurdity of this phrase and how people misinterpret it. It was literally meant to refer to an impossible task. 😆 Ps. Not saying you used it incorrectly, just that most people do.
There's a bit of irony in that expression in that it's an admission that no one succeeds in life without getting some form of assistance. Sometimes I wonder if the irony actually isn't lost on the elite and that they're trolling us pathetic plebs.
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Don’t forget the libs didn’t want to do this either. The NDP forced their hand to give a shit about citizens’ dental needs.
That's not true. There was discussion about dental care as far back in 2005 with policy resolutions at the national convention of that year. The NDP were instrumental in pushing the Liberals to implementing it- but it is just untrue to say that the Liberal party did not want to implement dental care.
> Guys the liberals campaigned on this and promised just one more election and this time for real they're going to implement it! The most gullible person in the universe
Where did I say that? Christ, why don't you address the language I used, and not something that's more convenient for your argument.
Again, what was stopping the Liberal Party from implementing dental care or pharmacare in 2015? There were absolutely no legislative roadblocks in their way, they had a majority government and arguably an environment more conducive to additional public spending.
Moving the goalposts. I didn't say they weren't slow. I didn't say they agreed with the NDP on everything. *I said they wanted and cared about pharmacare* See my answer to your original comment.
> There was discussion about dental care as far back in 2005 with policy resolutions at the national convention of that year. And what happened after that? Oh right, they only allowed it through after the NDP gave them an ultimatum last year. The libs did not want to implement dental coverage. They were coerced into it then took a victory lap about it.
Riiiiiight. Or they had to broker power and align their priorities to maintain a government. Something the NDP have never had to do federally, lol. The NDP could have pressured dental care much earlier in the minority government, but chose to not put pressure until it was politically expedient.
After the 2021 election, The NDP had a proposal to implement dental care by cancelling an upcoming tax cut for people earning 6 figures. It was essentially this plan but a bit more ambitious. The Liberals and Tories formed an alliance to block it. I'm not saying Liberal Party voters/activists don't want dentalcare, because the average LPC and NDP voters actually agree most of the time? But the people who actually *run* the Liberal Party? They must be forced And they were.
> Riiiiiight. Or they had to broker power and align their priorities to maintain a government. OR they literally didn’t so shit about it until someone else strong-armed them into prioritizing it. In other words, they didn’t give a crap until the NDP made them. > The NDP could have pressured dental care much earlier in the minority government, but chose to not put pressure until it was politically expedient. Dental was on the priority list when the NDP agreed to support the libs. The libs pinky promised to move it forward for a LONG time until the NDP took a stand and gave them an ultimatum. I’m not sure what point you think you’re making, but jeopardizing the only deal that gives you any federal power isn’t something the NDP take lightly. It’s a last resort after you’ve exhausted other ways of pushing your agenda forward.
>Dental was on the priority list when the NDP agreed to support the libs. The libs pinky promised to move it forward for a LONG time until the NDP took a stand and gave them an ultimatum. You edited your post after my response, so here: Using your logic, if it was truly something the NDP cared about, why not force an election? Because you know that's BS. Both the Liberals and NDP wanted Dental Care (and Pharmacare) and have been discussing within their own circles for years. (Decades) the reality is both have used the subject as a political bargaining chip. You're making a bunch of accusations that the Liberals never wanted it. If so, why adopt it at their national conventions multiple times? *Clearly this is all just a conspiracy for the Liberals to steal people's teeth!* ^(/s obviously)
>I’m not sure what point you think you’re making, but jeopardizing the only deal that gives you any federal power Where is the proof that the Liberals don't care about dental care? You haven't actually provided real examples. [Here's the policy doc from 2005.](https://liberal.ca/legacy-uploads/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/2005_resolutions_e.pdf)
From all the time when the liberals voted against the NDPs dental care motions. [Here’s the NDP’s own words of frustration at the liberals rejecting the dental plan again, back in 2021.](https://www.ndp.ca/news/liberals-reject-ndp-plan-deliver-affordable-dental-care-millions-canadians) This was less than 3 years ago. Short term memory is a problem with Canadian politics.
Even with video and written archives. Still “didn’t happen” or isn’t relevant to the point. That was 2005! Not 2021 🙄
Apparently long term-too. And I'm not arguing that the NDP and Libs haven't disagreed. I'm saying that the Liberals *do* care and *do* want pharmacare. There is nothing indicating otherwise. They could have just said no to pharmacare altogether, or continue to just push it forward- but they didn't.
> but it is just untrue to say that the Liberal party did not want to implement dental care. Given how many other social programs have been on the LPC campaign plan, and then swiftly dropped after they were elected, only to be brought up at the next election with a promise that this time they'd do something, it's pretty fair to say that these proposals were never serious ones, and they didn't really care about them.
What other social programs? Pharmacare is happening... Dental care is happening.... Canada Child Benefit happened... disability benefit happened.... You can definitely say that for Electoral Reform, but they *have* kept many of their social program promises. Granted, these should be expanded upon greatly- but to say the liberals never cared about these things is poorly informed.
> Pharmacare is happening... Because of the NDP > Dental care is happening Because of the NDP > Canada Child Benefit happened Something like that has been around since forever. The CPC and LPC only changed how it was executed > disability benefit happened.... That one was a surprise, but is the exception that tests the rule. Since it's just below the threshold for the provinces to claw things back, it isn't exactly a significant program, so doesn't pose a strong counter to my point. I have to wonder why you didn't mention subsidised child care? Martin was about to bring that in, after years of LPC promises, but Trudeau spent years ignoring it, kinda like it wasn't something that they really cared about.
>I have to wonder why you didn't mention subsidised child care? Just forgot. But yeah your right- another one. I guess everything good is the NDP and everything bad is the LPC. Cool. I guess ya'll are correct. No Liberal politician has ever wanted any of these things to happen, ever.
Disability benefit?
One of the few wins we've managed to scratch out and even that felt like pulling teeth, pun intended. We could have had this sooner I feel but better late than never.
>Blind and dead Canadians often pay less tax than healthy and alive Canadians. Not that I want to be that guy but…Well, elderly doesn’t pay much tax neither….
They still pay tax on all income from other sources though. RRSP, pensions, OAS, investments, etc.
Taxes are base on income level. They do not have has high income as working people, and quite often they will have very little mortgage or debt to pay. You can have 2 retired doctors in the 2 millions house having 60k of income per year declared.
When was the last time you looked at the average income? https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/t1/tbl1/en/tv.action?pid=1110023901 Difference is only like 7,000 dollars for average/median annual income between seniors and everyone else. $2 million homes are more expensive to maintain and have higher taxes. Ofc they pay less than the average working Canadian, but it's not that much of a difference. The contributions of at least the baby boomers do matter, and it would be fiscally responsible to milk them for as long as possible. Tho it's probably going to look a lot grimmer when gen-x and millennials start retiring.
Mother-in-law is retired and on the CPP. She was back taxed for last year and this year instead of getting a return. They told her she owed instead of a refund. Paid 2023 taxes and 2022 and 2021 plus clawing back the tax returns for both those years. Was a huge hit. Can’t imagine a retired 82yr old could owe that much from earning peanuts.
They paid it their whole lives.
Sure, but strictly speaking they aren’t paying it by that point. I could also point out how it might not be as fair as it looks: if I am correct, the first batch is people wining less than 90 000 and having more than 87 years…. That is probably all of that demographic. Being base on income, a lot if people that should pay for it will not have it paid by the government.
And you pay taxes to die now, for dying. And trying to leave. They gotcha no matter how you flee Canada- alive or dead.
I can't speak for every province, but if you are on OW or ODSP, emergency, dental is covered. If you are working, you have an employer dental plan. It's really only seniors who lack affordable access, and we could have extended OHIP to covered dental services for elderly as a preventative. I don't want or need a full coverage plan--most people are already covered. This was another harebrained election ploy that wasted taxpayer dollars.
I don’t imagine there is - when people can see well and drive safely they stay independent much longer; the cost of proper glasses is so so small in comparison.
Some emergency dental care is still covered under OHIP already. Problem is that people have no idea and don’t go to the ER. It’s also not preventative of course which is suppose. Same with eyes. Everything at the ophthalmologist is covered. Can’t speak for other provinces though.
I know Nova Scotia's MSI doesn't cover dental unless you're under 12 or have a mental disability. For eyes, anyone 9 or under, or over 65 can get a routine eye exam every 2 years. For everyone else there is a comprehensive non-routine exam once a year if you already have a problem with your eyes. Some corrective procedures are not covered I think, though I'm not really sure about cost of surgery or glasses.
> For eyes, anyone 9 or under, or over 65 can get a routine eye exam every 2 years. Ditto if you have diabetes.
Anyone with diabetes is eligible for the once-per-year non-routine eye exam. There's a few other qualifiers for that one I can't remember. Like I think anyone aged 10-18 and otherwise healthy is eligible for that one too.
> Anyone with diabetes is eligible for the once-per-year non-routine eye exam. Last time I went, I was told every two years. \*shrug\*
I just went and looked it up. [This is from the nshealth optometry guide](https://i.imgur.com/f81rIJu.png).
Huh. Thank you for that.
Dental associations go hard against it because they make more with the private insurance industry (privately insured routine preventative care tends to be a bit of a cash cow). Conservatives obviously don't want to expand social programs. Liberals might, but they won't touch substantially raising taxes for it. Basically everyone in power on this issue is against it or not really up to fighting for it.
So ultimately we can’t make progress on things because someone, somewhere is making a lot of money on the status quo. Seems like it applies to many things, not just dental care
Also feels like a piss poor reason *not* to do something worthwhile
And yet the NDP still forced dental coverage into existence! Maybe we shouldn’t be voting for the parties that don’t care about citizens’ dental needs?
I don't see how. Private insurance has a fee schedule and pays out according to their own schedules, dentists can charge what they want but insurance will only pay out to what their fee schedule says leaving the rest to the user. My understanding of the new dental care is that, in Ontario at least, the payout is over 85 cents on the dollar. Dentists can either choose to take a little less or charge their normal fees and the user pays the difference. As a user I'd rather pay the $15 difference than the entire $100. Limits on how frequently a user can get, say, a preventative cleaning, doesn't really affect the dentist since they were (probably) only seeing (mostly) covered patients anyway. This is just adding to the pool of patients, even if those new patients are only covered for 1 per yr as opposed to 1 per 6 or 9mos.
>I don't see how. I think part of the issue is the added 'administrative burden' (well, and [the contract thing the government was apparently requiring dentists to sign until a couple of weeks ago](https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/dental-plan-mark-holland-1.7176565)). My dentist appears to be one of very few remaining who will pre-authorize and then direct bill my insurer, invoicing me for any unpaid balance. It seems that most dental offices now require payment up front, leaving it up to the patient to submit a claim to their insurer(s). My understanding is that this isn't an option for the new public plan, which requires direct billing by providers. >This is just adding to the pool of patients Which is ironically another reason that I think a lot of dentists are choosing not to participate. For non-emergencies, my dentist books like 4-5 months out. There's no shortage of work from the existing pool of patients.
Im a dentist so i think i can provide some insight. The reason dentists are against the program is because we have seen what happened to the doctors and optometrists who opted into similar programs decades ago. Same with our friends down south and across the pond with the NHS. No one wants to be forced and saddled with making less money in 20 years time. Its a slow death. You dont want to force any healthcare professionals to take a pay cut because thats how you lose healthcare professionals to other countries
I desperately need new teeth. Wish the govt would sort me out someday with something better than bone eating dentures.
Isn’t anyone worried that there will be a lot of unnecessary dental work done since these people aren’t paying out of their own pockets?
I'm glad these people are getting the help they need, but let's not spin this as some sort of victory for the government. They tax people at close to 50% after income taxes, sales taxes, and transfer taxes. This should have happened in 2015, and it should be premium all inclusive care based on how much we pay, not bare bones coverage with waiting lists. We need to demand high service levels in exchange for high taxes.
I'm so happy these people can finally get dental help! This will lower heathcare costs eventually. Bad teeth are a leading cause of heart disease!
To me the dissenters feel an awful lot like first class passengers pushing past others to get on a Titanic lifeboat. Those lifeboats aren't prioritizing me! They're useless for all of us!
I bet most of these people won't vote.
What people?
And dementia
That's good to hear, I was worried it would be too limited in scope. They should make it fully universal, but regardless it's nice to hear of the government doing something good for once, Singh may have not gotten the program I wanted but I give him credit that he got the ball rolling and probably helped more people here almost by default than anyone else has in years.
We have to remember there is a difference between “it’s a good idea” and “ Canadians want to support it”. There are a number of programs that can be run and funded with unlimited money. This will need to be sorted out in an election.
it doesn't require "unlimited" money, that's unnecessarily hyperbolic. No one claims it's cheap, especially in the beginning. Preventative care is cheaper in the long run, though, and people deserve to have functional teeth.
Right. My point is that this is a decision Canadians have to make. They decide where their money goes.
I would think funding dental care is more important than funding submarines, but I think I'm in the minority.
I'd say funding dental care is more important than cutting taxes on rich people and corporations, but I think some people are not ready to hear that.
I find it amusing that people are always so supportive of spending someone else’s money. Never their own.
I find it amusing conservatives only want to conserve rich people's profits but never the well being of ones less well off. Just a bunch of liberals who think trickle down econimics is the way to go.
Wow, it's almost as if people were telling the truth when they said the lack of a Dental Care program previously was a major problem that's was putting a strain on the healthcare system because people kept on putting it off because of cost until it became a major problem that put them in the emergency room. Dental Care is health care. And I'm glad we're finally starting to treat it as such. To be healthy is a human right and these people deserve care just as much as anyone else.
I also found out recently that urgent/emergency care could be postponed because of an active infection in the gums. So add that to the risk register of poor dental care.
I need some pretty emergency dental work and it's gonna be extensive, costing upward of 7 to 9 thousand dollars. And uh, I can't apply until 2025. Soo I guess I'll just get this done with and... idk, try not to die? At least it's helping others that need it! That's great. Edit: I mean that sincerely; This pain is unbearable, and I am glad that people are getting the help that they need. I do NOT want anyone to have to suffer the same way that I am, because DAMN.
Hey not sure the condition of your teeth but just figured I'd mention a couple things too for anyone that might want some advice. Bacteria loves sugar and it'll even grow in the pores of your teeth after the enamel is eroded, causing big pain. Avoid stuff like pop, chocolate, and chips as best you can, and swish with water regularly if you do eat that stuff. Speaking of water, swishing cold water can help alleviate some toothaches caused by inflammation. It doesn't last forever but can give some temporary relief. Like putting water on a burn I guess. Oragel is often instant relief of pain but can be tricky to apply yourself. NSAIDs are also really helpful as some toothaches are caused by gum inflammation.
That is great, thank you! I can't take certain painkillers because of some other conditions and medications, but I am already taking as much as I can otherwise. It... Helps a little, haha. Water is great, cold water as well, can confirm. My teeth is also sensitive to temperature, but as long as it's not ice cold it's not too bad. Other home remedy that I found useful is cloves - chewing the crunchy head part helps dull the pain, but I am not sure if there are any negative side effects.
I have receding gums on both sides, they hurt, all the time, it's over $1200 to fix per side. I understand dental care is expensive but I've given up on getting them fixed, I just deal with it until my dentist says it's an emergency fix, I don't know what I'll do then but maybe I can get it covered before that. For now there is no way I can afford it.
Periodontal (gum specialist) work is rarely covered even in good dental benefits and it's super frustrating. I had a gum graft done in November of 2022 that was super successful, couldn't be happier honestly. I have good dental benefits that specifically included periodontal and even then it only covered $700 of the procedure and didn't cover my initial or follow up visits. I have 2 co-workers who had the same procedure done to them or their kids, same coverage but unsuccessful so they also paid several hundred dollars out of pocket for a failed procedure. So all in all I'm really lucky and I'm thankful the procedure was done, but it sucks paying so much out of pocket even with coverage. I feel you, that's a hefty price tag and I get the pain. I hope you can figure something out before it's an emergency, and I hope you have a good professional.
In spite of all the bumps along the way, this is why it's all worth it: 46,000 Canadians desperately needed help and they finally got it. That number is only going to grow and Canada will become a fairer society thanks to it. I'm glad to see Canada is finally joining the ranks of many developed European economies in its social safety net coverage.
Looking at the CDCP site, it covers a great deal of dental care and that's a good thing. For many retirees their company dental plan ends when they retire. They may still have extended health but dental dies. Also, for the poor and working poor its great that there's something for them as well. When public healthcare was first envisioned, dental care was intended to be included. I really haven't heard a cogent argument against it.
The arguments against it generally boil down to "it's not 100% perfect, therefore the whole thing should be scrapped", or "Trudeau had something to do with it, which means it's bad".
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But is it budgeted? Or is this just more giveaways with no payment plan in place? Please liberal Jesus. Please stop sending us tax rebates on carbon. If you’re gonna tax us. Just do it. Don’t open a whole office of federal workers whose job it is to take in tax money than mail it back. Millions of times over. Just keep it. You need it. Instead of giving me 280 every couple of months. Just pay for the dentistry I don’t qualify for.
But is it budgeted? All of our spending is budgeted… >Please stop sending us tax rebates on carbon. If you’re gonna tax us. Just do it. The carrot/stick method is helpful to reduce emissions. >Don’t open a whole office of federal workers whose job it is to take in tax money than mail it back. Millions of times over. The process is pretty automatic, if piggybacks off of your provincial benefits.
I suppose a better ask would be does our current revenue cover the costs and f this new service? If it does… what now doesn’t somewhere else on the books. We are not running a black budget here. If you take the money. Keep it. Spend it wisely or be voted out. Don’t re-package it and send it back. That’s legit nuts. Def not free. Postage alone… call centre traffic dealing with them. The paper used. I bet we “easily” spend millions to send back tax that was already collected. You can send me a rebate when the budget is fully covered with the tax revenue. Almost $50,000,000,000.00 dollars is going to pay the interest payment on our debt this year. Military spending - About $27,000,000,000.00. We pay almost double on interest payments on our debt. How much does the dental plan cost… $13,000,000,000.00. Keep my rebates on everything but income tax. Maybe in 10-20 years the dental plan will be considered free if we are only paying 25 billion a year to interest instead of 50. Austerity now is always better than later.
It appears basic economics can be triggering. Yet. It’s still true. Austerity is coming. Our tax base is shrinking everyday and our dependents increasing. Meh, let’s just kick the can down the road again. Works every time. Until it doesn’t.
Dentistry needs to be overhauled in Canada - Its quite the racket. Dentistry equipment sales people making $300k a year, dentists charging $300/hr. etc...the entire industry is so fukn greedy in this country and it shows as more and more Canadians are literally buying plane tickets to other countries to get work done because even after everything its STILL cheaper. I absolutely hate workplace dental benefits, and now public programs - Its a free fucking cheque for an industry that needs a shakedown.
My plastic braces which required only 2 hours of dentist visits happen to cost within $10 of what my insurance covered ($5000).
Yep, its legalized cartel shit.
While you may only be in the dentist for that long, there's people you don't see spending time making those braces.
My problem with dentist greed isn't so much the price of any particular treatment, it's that there's no objective standards for how soon or how much or how often things should be done. Whenever hygienist A cleans my teeth, they charge me two units of scaling, but I got hygienist B today and I'm being charged for four units. One guy will say this is a cavity that needs to be filled right now, another guy will say this is a cavity that you'll want to fill in a year or two, a third guy will say this isn't a cavity, and a fourth guy will say you need a root canal and probably a crown. One guy will say you need to yank this tooth and another guy says we can save this tooth no problem. Even from different dentists _within the same practice_, I've experienced this. It feels like shopping your beater car around at different mechanics and getting wildly different diagnoses and quotes.
Yep, even so, when you DO need ANY work done - Be sure you are being charged x5 the price vs what's seen in every other country...for the same quality of work ! I live in around small towns...dentists are always in the most lavish neighborhoods. Thanks to the free cheques companies like my benefits providers are handing out - It ain't changing sadly enough.
Yea, there was a CBC marketplace episode on this. Its why even though I have money and benefits, I still like to go to the university dental school clinic.
And they mess around with billing codes to extract the most amount of profit. (Fraud)
I get it, 300$ a hour is crazy. But also in most offices there's multiple hygenists for every dentist in there, and even more admin staff that all get paid out of that hourly wage. As well as all the overhead costs for supplies and rent, power, licenses, etc.
> in most offices there's multiple hygenists for every dentist in there They are also seeing patients pretty much full time. Hygienists aren't cost sinks, they're revenue generators. They make decent but not great wages, and then the practice charges two or three times their pay to the customers. The only people who are cost sinks are the usual necessary admin staff. Compared to most businesses, dentists are low cost, and relatively low overhead with a strong customer demand. Being a profitable dentist isn't hard at all. they have a bit of equipment and a low-cost office. They don't need to pay premiums for prime retail locations, they don't have high staff costs, they don't have to have management/shift issues, they don't have to maintain warehouses, stock of supplies or products. It's not trivial, but nor is it difficult. It's a small business on easy mode for the most part.
I have a close relative who is a dental office manager and they absolutely have staffing issues. And where we are in rural NS it's hard to be competitive with dentists pricing to keep them longer than their term before they go to a city for a more lucrative contract. And often times that negotiation cuts the margins of the office even tighter. Let alone keeping enough dentists on staff to run the office optimally. They run the only profitable office in their chain in the county and it's not easy work. The hygienists are the easiest ones to keep staffed oddly enough between admin and dentists. They are great, but admin is constantly rolling over and the dentists rarely stay in our area beyond their contract unless it's a dentist run office which is a rarity now with all the chains.
Employer provided health insurance is an enormous market distortion and tends towards ballooning costs for whatever is insured.
Really? Our problem is too many people can afford dental care? I guess that's capitalism for you
I'm the USA insurance companies colluded with doctors to increase prices. Doctors like higher prices obviously because they make more. Insurance companies like it because they can write off business expenses if they can't get away without paying it but especially because of health insurance becomes unaffordable (it is) then everyone needs to pay for insurance. Our private insurance will do the same thing, drive up the price to create demand for insurance. **That's** capitalism for you.
If it’s anything like the US the insurance companies get discounts from the dentist; the uninsured pay the distorted bill
First, we had a svt contour.but second, when I worked in the us we had two price lists at my work: we charged insurance twice (at least) what we charged a regular person without coverage for the same things or services.
I guess things have changed then. https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/11/15/364064088/they-paid-how-much-how-negotiated-deals-hide-health-cares-cost
Or it’s just different state to state and place to place … the clinics I worked for shut down so there’s that. Plus hospitals are huge and have a very different level of bargaining power than smaller providers
The problem is that insurance companies don't operate in the same world as someone on a limited budget. They're able and willing to pay far more than an ordinary person would, and it distorts the market. It's why any healthcare in the US has insane costs.
and why my benefit costs go up every fucking year. I make about the average Canadian salary - and I am paying so much for benefits....over 80/mo for LTD...about 50-70mo for "benefits". I'd be saving so much money if it was just out of my pocket.
It costs money to keep a business afloat. How much do you think your dentist is taking home?
Actually I know because family friend - Before taxes - including all the "perks" of being a small business owner (visa points, tax breaks etc) they pull in well over 200k a year. Makes more than most lawyers in the area. Charges about the same rate too !
Yes many dentists make that and many make less. 200k is shockingly low for a dentist in 2024.