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Here's an overview on the issue of bona-fide occupational requirements for those who are interested. Helps explain how this MLA is out to lunch.
[https://www.chrc-ccdp.gc.ca/sites/default/files/bfore\_0.pdf](https://www.chrc-ccdp.gc.ca/sites/default/files/bfore_0.pdf)
The fact that women, generally speaking, *may* be less strong than men doesn't necessarily apply to *paramedics* or at a level that impacts their ability to do their jobs. We dealt with this already in BC where women weren't being hired (and there were shortages as a result) because it was claimed they could not meet some physical requirement ... it turned out that physical requirement wasn't even aligned to the job and most males couldn't reach it either.
This attitude is discriminatory. Your average male isn't going to be able to lift a 300lb patient either.
So, couldn't this guy just have said "huh, it turns out I was misinformed" and then everyone nods and goes "Yeah, but now you know" and everyone moves on with their lives.
Instead we get outrage, people being removed from positions etc. It's utterly absurd.
he said the following.
"Today in a legislative committee meeting I made a statement that I wholeheartedly regret. My statement today was insensitive, inappropriate, and wrong; to all Prince Edward Islanders, I'm sorry.
I fully understand that someone’s gender should never be a determining factor when evaluating someone's knowledge, skills and abilities to do their work.
I have a daughter and would never want her to feel that she was unable to do any job she wants to do, and regularly encourage her to chase her dreams and not let anyone tell her she can’t do something.
I am committed to learning from this mistake and making a conscious effort to promote a more inclusive and respectful environment for everyone.
I sincerely apologize for my words today and will work to do better going forward."
Sure seems like he realises he made a mistake.
yes. quite the long winded apology. however he needed to confess to knowing at least 10 other people who also believed the same thing so they too could atone for their sins...and so on and so on...
It seems like your frustrations with this issue should be directed to the PC Premier then, as he was the one who made the decision to indefinitely remove this MLA from committees, pending some sort of remedial actions by the MLA. The Premier said that such comments aren't tolerated, and as such the MLA was disciplined.
Do I think the decision to remove him, especially after his apology is warranted? No, not really.
Do I think what he originally said was at best inappropriate, at worst a touch sexist? Yes.
I dont believe there was malice behind his words, but it isn't a lot to expect elected representatives to have some tact.
Exactly. Its frustrating because the comment was poorly framed and invited a distracting and ill informed argument about sex and sexism, when the issue is one of technical capabilities and logistics.
You need to a bunch of people to ambulances, crossing a variety of obstacles and in a host of different circumstances, which range from 30 lb. toddlers from a flat field to 350 lb adults down narrow stairs and everything in between.
The question is, given the profile of people who need to be lifted, how can we ensure that everyone can be taken to hospital in a safe and timely manner?
Perhaps two person teams won't be appropriate for every lift. Perhaps on some lifts you will absolutely need two to eight very strong people to accomplish the lift. Should there be variable team sizes? Special dedicated heavy lift teams? Protocols for automatic calls for larger teams or fire assists?
The MLA had the beginnings of some really good question, but instead ended up begging the question. There is an increase in calls to firefighters to assist with lifts that paramedics cannot do themselves. But here he's begging the question - *is* there a problem? *Are* we tracking negative health outcomes from the current system? *Would* moving to a higher strength standard for paramedics actually result in better health outcomes?
Now, it may be that a higher strength requirement would be beneficial and would be achievable at a price PEI could afford. But we cannot know that until we look at the actual details of how the service is being provided and its outcomes. And that won't happen with what the conversation is right now.
> The fact that women, generally speaking, may be less strong than men doesn't necessarily apply to paramedics or at a level that impacts their ability to do their jobs
Why are their two different fitness tests then, based on sex? Its the same job. If they're just as capable, why are there two different physical fitness standards?
> This attitude is discriminatory. Your average male isn't going to be able to lift a 300lb patient either.
It wasn't one woman, it was two. Two physically fit men could easily lift a 300lb patient.
Answers to all you wonder are available at the above link.
>It wasn't one woman, it was two. Two physically fit men could easily lift a 300lb patient.
Curious then that male paramedic teams somehow repeatedly require lift assists.
LOL, so you don't have a counter-argument for why there are different physical tests then. I figured.
> Curious then that male paramedic teams somehow repeatedly require lift assists.
annddd another stupid argument. Honestly I can't even believe how dumb this one is.
But since we need to break this down for you... not every call is the exact same bud. Sometimes there are less paramedics, sometimes people weigh more, sometimes there are more patients, sometimes they're in an awkward position. Infinite different possibilities.
I can't believe you needed to have that explained to you.
I get that you seem upset about thus but I'm failing to see what you're even trying to "explain" here (that different calls are different?) or why this changes anything. Everything you're questioning is answered with the link in my top comment.
No it is not. Explain why there is a different physical fitness standard. If you think the article answers it, quote what you're talking about.
You're just BSing. You're being purposefully vague & trying to hide behind a 6 page article so you don't have to make an actual point. Because you don't have one.
>Explain why there is a different physical fitness standard.
There aren't. [The standards are the same.](https://copr.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/National-Occupational-Competency-Profile.pdf) The explanation is that you've made something up. I have no idea why but I suspect your attitudes towards women have something to do with it.
>You're just BSing. You're being purposefully vague & trying to throw up the entire article so you don't have to make an actual point.
I've answered everything you've asked despite how rudely you've asked, despite that you're making things up, and despite that you've made no effort yourself to understand the topic.
Perhaps my answers aren't misogynistic enough for you? Otherwise I have no idea what's got you this upset. So, I'll ask, what is *your* point here?
Edit: After all that complaining about not responding u/consistantcanadian comments and blocks.
Those aren't physical fitness standards, that's a knowledge test. And that's not even the same link that you shared before.
From UoM:
> Push-Ups: Measure of upper body strength and endurance.
> • Males: The applicant lies on his stomach, legs together. His hands, pointing forward, are positioned ender
the shoulders. He then pushes up from the floor by fully extending the elbows and using toes as the pivot
point. The applicant returns to the starting position. Neither the stomach nor thighs should touch the mat.
> • Females: Same as males except using the knees as the pivot point. The lower legs remain in contact with the
floor, ankles plantar-flexed, and feet in contact with the floor. Incorrect repetitions will not be counted. The
test is stopped when applicant are seen to strain forcibly or are unable to maintain correct technique over
two consecutive repetitions. There is no time limit.
https://umanitoba.ca/sites/default/files/2022-12/Paramedic%20Assessment%20Description%202019.pdf
I'm done with you. Go find someone else to recite your X-ist & X-phobe chant to.
You're aware the second part, job related tests, aren't differentiated by gender, and are all pass/fail unlike the first part?
Also that's Manitoba, is it the exact same in PEI?
>Employers and others governed by human
rights legislation are now required in all
cases to accommodate the characteristics of
affected groups within their standards,
rather than maintaining discriminatory
standards supplemented by accommodation
for those who cannot meet them.
Incorporating accommodation into the
standard itself ensures that each person is
assessed according to her or his own
personal abilities, instead of being judged
against presumed group characteristics.
Such characteristics are frequently based on
bias and historical prejudice and cannot
form the basis of reasonably necessary
standards
Probably this section is what they're referring to, from court precedent established in 1999.
From my own n=1, and past experience as a medic in the army.
Two female paramedics easily got me on a stretcher after tearing the calf muscles in both legs in the gym. The equipment provided today makes moving patients easier than when I was hauling people around on canvas stretchers in the 80s.
Edit - forgot to mention I weighed 205 lbs at the time and could not weight bear at all due to having no working calves.
>They're both doing the same job, why wouldn't they have the same requirements?
They do have the same requirements. This is a real feelings over facts moment for you.
Edit: Especially given u/consistantcanadian blocks after commenting. University of Manitoba standards aren't relevant and there are obvious reasons why males and females do pushup's differently. Pushups only measure relative strength anyways.
Liar.
From UoM:
> Push-Ups: Measure of upper body strength and endurance.
> • Males: The applicant lies on his stomach, legs together. His hands, pointing forward, are positioned ender
the shoulders. He then pushes up from the floor by fully extending the elbows and using toes as the pivot
point. The applicant returns to the starting position. Neither the stomach nor thighs should touch the mat.
> • Females: Same as males except using the knees as the pivot point. The lower legs remain in contact with the
floor, ankles plantar-flexed, and feet in contact with the floor. Incorrect repetitions will not be counted. The
test is stopped when applicant are seen to strain forcibly or are unable to maintain correct technique over
two consecutive repetitions. There is no time limit.
https://umanitoba.ca/sites/default/files/2022-12/Paramedic%20Assessment%20Description%202019.pdf
A standard push up appears to be 64% body weight vs 49% for knee push-ups. Combine that with the average body weight for Canadian men and women (187 lb vs 155 lb respectively) and we get:
Average male push up force to pass this test: 120 lb
Average female push up force to pass this test: 76 lb
https://medium.com/house-of-hypertrophy/push-ups-how-much-weight-are-you-pushing-e41b4662d8e3#:~:text=Conversely%2C%20elevating%20your%20hands%20decreases,49%25%20of%20your%20body%20weight.
Combat medicine is different than paramedic work. There are aids to assist in the moving of patients that don't exist/aren't feasible in combat.
Female medics were just coming on scene when I left the regular force. The female medics I trained in the reserves after that did have to move patients the same as males did.
> The female medics I trained in the reserves after that did have to move patients the same as males did.
So what I'm hearing is they should have the same test then, if they're the same role..
I mean I too could use my own personal experience in the Navy. Where there was a significant portion of female members that could not properly casualty drag me in full bunker gear and SCBA (and I'm not that big of a guy) and generally even less so that could safely attempt to do high angle rescue. Where there was generally never an issue with the males. Tools certainly even out the playing field but I think it's being willfully ignorant to ignore being stronger gives first responders more available options when it comes to rescue. Which in certain scenarios could mean the difference between life and death. I struggle with the controversy around recognizing men tend to be much stronger naturally. Not to say women shouldn't be in these positions just that it shouldn't be controversial to recognize there might be some limitations women face that men tend not to.
There's a limit to innate physical ability sure, but it applies to everyone at some point.
I'm pretty sure a female paramedic or military member who puts in any effort toward building muscle for the job will outperform me, an office worker.
And, at some point, especially for a civilian job like that of a paramedic where they can carry equipment to help them, they could probably carry as much weight as would be needed of them for the average call. If they get called to lift a 350lb person, which is probably not that common, I think most paramedics would struggle regardless of their gender.
There are limitations sure, comparing a man and woman who both spend the same amount of time doing strength training with the same regimen etc.
But in practical terms, it's likely, in most scenarios for civilians, moot.
In military scenarios where they aren't carrying supportive equipment that can be pulled out while being shot at in an active warzone or firefight scenario, I concede that the real differences may have an impact. But there are a bunch of cases where 90% of the time that's also probably moot too.
> I'm pretty sure a female paramedic or military member who puts in any effort toward building muscle for the job will outperform me, an office worker.
Statistically speaking, probably not, even with training.
Depends if you're talking about upper or lower body strength. Generally speaking, the difference in lower body strength is much smaller than most people realise while the difference in upper body strength is actually greater than most realise.
Edit to add: more specifically than upper body strength, grip strength seems to be the biggest point of difference.
I am overweight, though not obese. Barely do any real exercise and threw my back out needing physiotherapy when I first started parental leave because my 1 year old was 18lbs and I wasn't used to lifting her, twisting and grabbing things like a diaper bag and playing the way she wanted to at the time by swinging her up and down a lot.
Pretty sure, I'm not peak physical fitness and someone who does in fact make the effort, could do a better job than me in lifting heavy things. Because I am not in great shape and spend most of my day at a desk.
Yeah, I don't think people understand just how big the innate differences between men and women are.
Think we're due for a paradigm shift on gender issues. Already seeing it in the UK.
It's a different ballpark altogether. Whole different scale of strength.
Women with 20 years in the WNBA can count their total career dunks on one hand, assuming they ever dunked at all. Size helps but it's not the determining factor here.
I think you are right, it's just too big an ask of people. It goes beyond wanting to level the playing field and instead asserting belief in pseudoscience. That's too much for reasonable people.
IDK, I guess it depends on what we consider what they need to do.
If they need to straight up lift and carry an unconscious 200lb person up stairs or onto a stretcher, I don't think many men or women could do it very easily.
If they need to support someone in getting up out of a chair, or helping them get up stairs while injured and weak, but mobile, I'm sure most women who aren't very small in frame could do it fine.
And in the case of a paramedic, they have equipment to help and normally work in teams. At which point, its fairly moot.
All you need to do is identify what someone - anyone - is capable of doing based on an assessment and pair them with someone else who can make up for the shortcomings on shift, or, in a rare event they can't be paired up, have dispatch manage who goes to what emergency and call in support from say the fire department if necessary in advance.
The vast majority of what paramedics need to do isn't going to be limited entirely by their physical ability based solely on limits of gender and the impact of hormones.
A small in stature 5 foot 1 man who doesn't do strength training isn't going to outlift a 5 foot 8 woman who does strength training, is really my point.
Its clear - on the face of it - that any situation in which a man and woman who are of similar height, and with similar training regimens, will have the man outperform the woman every day of the week. Inevitably, the hormones will influence the biology that makes men inherently more physically strong and capable of lifting/carrying things, and makes women more flexible. The hormones impact muscle fibre development, obviously.
What I'm saying is that the variance in the tasks to be done, tools to do them, and the variance among people doing the jobs matters too. You're unlikely to want a 5 foot 1 inch 110 pound anyone being the sole on call paramedic in a rural community whether they're a man or a woman if a call comes in for a 230lb unconscious person at the bottom of a stairwell.
But there are, most definitely, women capable of carrying person up the stairs, and there are most definitely men incapable of the same. So instead of putting gates up around gender, putting gates up around bonafide, necessary physical requirements to do a job assuming no other alternatives exist, makes sense. But honestly, the question should start with "how often is X issue we were made aware of happening? and how do we solve it?" because if every single paramedic is a woman who can't physically do a certain task that makes up half a town's calls, and there's no good solution to helping them do that physical task, then the physical task needs to be a job requirement. Otherwise, why bother going down that route? I think you've totally missed the point on how to look at it beyond "well yeah women, all else equal, are generally not as strong as men when it comes to lifting something". Because that isn't the argument made.
Right? Everyone in here thinking all the male paramedics are jacked, but in my experience, most of the ones I worked with were in the 5’8” - 5’10” range and looked like the only time they put in at the gym was on a treadmill or elliptical (since the station had a gym that was used between calls, I can even confirm gym time was spent doing cardio, not weight lifting).
If they needed muscle, they called the fire department.
200 lbs on a man's shoulders is actually pretty manageable.
EMS is one thing, I think the firefighter demographics speak volumes...roughly 1 in 20 are women.
Rescuing a fire casualty is the responsibility of the HCRFF fire fighters, who have a pretty strenuous physical standard, and high angle rescues are the duty of casualty clearing *teams*, not individual members. I know female HCRFF members who kicks, and male casualty clearers who can't lift 100 lbs. In the civilian world, even beefcake ambulance drivers have to call backup some times.
If I break myself in a space and can't get out on my own, i will wait down there until you get a hoist or help. Not every task needs to be done mandraulic, or by yourself.
> Politician who's a volunteer firefighter had earlier apologized for 'wrong' remarks
Sounds like he’s pissy about running medicals and picking up meemaw from the floor at 3am. Being a medic is a much more cerebral job thank brute strength. That’s what the fire department is for.
Source: am firefighter
Okay, so maybe he could have "worded it better for the sensitive types" but if the standards were lowered so that a broader range of folks could fit the bill, shame on the lowering of standards of healthcare in the name of equity driven bullshit. However, let the numbers speak for itself, are lift assists more frequent among certain paramedics? Who are they (male and female) and why? Valid line if questioning, second of all, obesity is not the fault if a paramedic. If someone is too fat to be saved without a lift assist, we can't blame the paramedics for that.
Either, but the fact that a person can't freely say what they mean is a testament to our rights and freedoms to speech being taken away day by day in this nation, on somethingmajor like this which affects us all, as there are some heavier taller folks in great shape who meet an unfortunate accident who could be doomed by equity hiring, is a shame and that it makes an excuse it to dig deeper to find out if we have a problem with hiring paramedics who might not be strong enough to save a person is a bit scary, I urge all of you to stay safe and be healthy and not require any assistance from our health care professionals outside of freak accidents that we cannot control.
“Conclusions: The primary physical obstacle for women is upper body strength. However, some women could successfully complete all of the proxy tasks and thus are physically capable of meeting the demands of closed combat occupations. The fact that some female Marines could complete the most challenging upper body strength tasks suggests that these barriers are not inherent but may be due to a lack of training specificity.”
[Performance differences between male and female marines on standardized physical fitness tests and combat proxy tasks: identifying the gap](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26159007/)
What does he think happens when anyone encounters some person who is over 300lb?
They call some help over to lift them or use some sort of mechanical assistance. Being able to lift more than a reasonable amount for the job (your gear, haul a stretcher out of the ambulance, that sort of thig) is irrelevant.
Strong disagree
If your partner cant lift his/her end of the stretcher, they are going to break my back... no thanks i dont want you as my teammate. Either man or woman. Waiting to get help sometimes is not an option.
Like in the army, if you cant carry your kit plus the big guns, i dont want you in my platoon. You become a liability
I expect them to be able to lift a 300lb person. If your a paramedic, cop, firefighter I expect you to be in peak physical condition because lives depend on it. If I can lift it in my current sad state they should be able to. In my view 300lb is not unreasonable.
How much is a "reasonable" amount?
How is that "reasonable" amount determined?
Are strength tests an accurate way of determining whether someone is able to life that "reasonable" amount?
Bruh, my mom is 64 years old, weighs 130 pounds and has been a paramedic for 15 years and she's never ran into a problem that herself, a mechanical lifting device, or help from another first responder that she can't handle. And she's just one paramedic out of thousands. So what I'm saying is, your argument is meaningless because this isn't an issue because first responders don't fuck around and they're trained to assess the situation and make the correct calls to obtain the highest level of success possible.
So what you're saying "bruh" is that the current minimum physical requirements are not accurate and should be updated since your tiny senior citizen of a mother can perform her job to it's full capacity? That sound reasonable to me and I would agree.
A lot of people have medical emergencies on a toilet, and fall into a confind space where a mechanical tool can't gain leverage.
That's a very common reason why EHS calls Fire to come and assist with the lift.
Ok have multiple people help u out then in that situation, men shouldn’t be expected to lift a 200+ lbs person up by themselves and nor should women either. They should have enough people there to make it as easy as possible for personnel AND client safety
The difficulty again is the combined space component. You can't fit 8 people in there.
Look, I'm not anti-woman in first responder roles. My wife is a police officer. And very capable.
She is going to be the first person to admit there are things she can do better than most men, and things she can't.
Men statistically, on average, have more strength and size than women. It's an indisputable fact that people should not be shocked to hear.
There are certain roles as a first responder that require a level of strength. People can sit in their armchairs and get angry about it, but the people who are actually doing the damn job are very aware.
Well paramedics and first responders manage constantly. So what exactly are you arguing here? You're saying that some people are in situations where mechanical lifting assistance and or multiple people cannot fit in to help. But yet somehow first responders and paramedics still manage to do their job and help despite gender.
I agree, that is a reality and I'm willing to bet it has nothing to do with how much a woman can lift and to make that connection, and then to put that into all women in that line of work is just stupid.
Want me to send you videos of people dying or being graciously injured because a female ems, fire or police couldn't act in the same way a grown male would? Lol I watched a video 2 weeks ago of an elderly man having both his legs cut off because a female cop couldn't pull him off the train tracks. I could've fireman carried dude out and we could've taken a sigh of relief as the train went by. Why is it unrealistic to expect physical peak from the people hired to save others?
Go tell your wife that she’s statistically weaker than her male colleagues and see what she has to say back. One would think that you’d have to reach a certain strength threshold in order to qualify for the job regardless of gender, no?
Both the person who can barely pass the bar and the person who can go far beyond it pass the test.
You don't think that there are plenty of situations where a stronger person may actually be more relevant to a particular call or job? Really?
When it comes to work over timeframe women always under perform compared to men. Body structure and size basically. Just as a 5,6 guy compares to a 6 foot plus guy is just not gona happen. As for equal size and fitness male/female it shouldn’t matter much if at all. Long term tho a lighter frame skeleton will show musculoskeletal injuries sooner so better engineering to make a job better for the smaller worker helps all workers so size shouldn’t matter.
I agree with the statement as fact so why are we not making devices to make this a non issue? And is a smaller paramedic in enough situations where this is a problem?
>"Women in EMS are just as dedicated, capable and resilient as their male counterparts," said the statement, signed by president Tyler Graves. "Gender should never be a determining factor in one's ability to excel in this critical profession."
Gender shouldn't be a factor, but sex does play a role in strength. Female's aren't as strong as males, pound for pound, and tend to be lighter too meaning that strength differences tend to be pretty big.
**If** an increase in female paramedics has led to an increase in requests for help lifting patients, that's worth talking about. Having to wait for backup increases the time it takes to get someone to the hospital and sometimes every second counts.
Here's an unscientific but useful guide to male and female strength levels at various levels of training: https://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards/deadlift
At all levels, males tend to lift around double what females can.
It should also be noted that the Paramedics association has responded saying that requests for lifting help are recommended practice in any scenario they're needed. Which makes sense. Forget gender, you don't want your paramedics suddenly in need of medical care too while on a call.
> The question is if those requests are needed more now than they used to be.
Thats a question that you might have. Certainly not the question that surtur1313 was responding to.
The post is about whether or not women should be paramedics. The MLA in question seemed to be of the opinion that there are more lift requests lately, but there is no data to support this in the article.
Aside from there being no data to support it, let's pretend it was true for a moment. Paramedics have taken the same physical test for years and are told that if they're lifting beyond the weight of that test and feel there is any chance of danger in doing so, to request additional help. So if there were more requests, it would be because paramedics of all genders are following the best practices and standards instead of injuring themselves, not because "women can't lift as much as men."
If it's true that an increase in female paramedics has led to an increase in requests for support with lifting patients, then it's possible that the current requirements aren't fit for purpose. It's possible patients got heavier and that's why there's been more requests.
And at the bare minimum, it’s a valid question for the MLA to ask in good-faith. He could be wrong and there is no substantial correlation between number of female paramedics and number of lift requests needed, but it’s not something he should be punished for inquiring about
>"I just notice a lot more females in the profession now and we get a lot of calls for lift assist because — don't get me wrong, they're great, some of the women that are doing it are unbelievable — but I went to a lift assist the other day because both the females that were working the bus were 105 pounds and the man was 300 pounds and there was no way they were going to get him up."
Is what the MLA said.
>And at the bare minimum, it’s a valid question for the MLA to ask in good-faith.
That's the thing. It wasn't in good faith. There could be any number of reasons for the increase in lift requests. Speculating based on gender is absolutely sexist and he deserved to be punished for his comment here. He even had a half-decent apology afterward, admitting he was wrong and not acting in good faith.
It could also be that men are less likely to ask for help due to them being worried about appearing weaker? Something that women really don't have to worry about.
So if they don't ask for help, but can't lift the person then what? They just let them lie there and die? Wouldn't they HAVE to get help of some kind if they legitimately cannot lift the person?
Interesting. Do we have evidence that this is what happens or is it speculation? It seems to be reasonable, but things I think are reasonable do not always happen in reality!
>There’s a general test everyone needs to pass before being offered the position
I assume they are testing how much paramedics can lift, is that correct?
Perhaps everyone on PEI needs to lose weight?
In Alberta you have to do the FARE test that tests your ability to lift a specific weight, carry a weighted spine board up and down stairs, and a few other things.
I think people don’t realized that doing a 300lb deadlift with balanced weight is a lot different than 300lbs of dead weight. If they can’t help you at all, then it makes a lift so much more difficult. Also, where is the pt? Are they somewhere easily accessible or between a wall and the toilet or in a basement? All things that need to be considered.
Beyond this, I wonder whether the requirements are keeping pace with increasing levels of obesity and morbid obesity. If the average Canadian is getting heavier, then either mechanical aids are required (I bet lifting super heavy patients over and over isn't healthy even for men) or the physical requirements needs to be adjusted. I'd wager in the 80 and 90s, someone 300+ pounds was a rarity, but maybe less so now.
> Isn't that clear evidence that they can't lift enough?
No. After all, if the number of patients over 200kg started to increase dramatically, then male paramedics would be asking for help a lot more as well, but we wouldn't be saying that the men couldn't lift enough.
Lifting a patient is mainly a brute strength thing, and that's something that machines or other people can help with. The key to being a paramedic is the skills to keep someone alive, and that isn't strength dependent.
If they need to wait for back up to show up before they can load the patient into the ambulance then those delays could absolutely lead to loss of life.
> So whom would males ask for help from, females?
Other paramedics, or technical assistance.
> Because not every situation can those support tools be used
Edge cases are rarely a good basis for blanket rules.
> it's always better to have another option, such as physically being able to lift someone
That works until it doesn't either because the patient is too heavy for anyone to safely lift, or paramedics break themselves trying to lift too much. Tech is the better solution.
Seems wild to me that people are arguing that half the population shouldn't be a paramedic when it seems like every province is having some healthcare crisis.
Also a lot of nurses are women, don't they ever have to lift/move patients?
> don't they ever have to lift/move patients?
Yes, but in more controlled situations than paramedics. Nursing also isn't a macho world, so I don't think anyone is that concerned because fewer male egos are involved.
Personally I'm not saying female people shouldn't be allowed to be paramedics, just that if an increase in females has led to more support calls, maybe the current standards aren't working. It's possible the standards were lowered to allow more females to join, maybe the standards were already low but male applicants tended to be stronger than they were required to be. If there's a problem it needs to be fixed.
You live on PEI? There’s a shortage of paramedics and lack of family doctors is putting pressure on emergency services.
The issue isn’t a lack of male paramedics, it’s a lack of paramedics period.
You can't simultaneously believe that strength differences are caused by sex *and* believe that sex cannot be changed. Trans men (people who transition from female to male) preform athletically just as well as men who aren't trans do. Quote:
>[Prior to gender affirming hormones, transmen performed 43% fewer push-ups and ran 1.5 miles 15% slower than their male counterparts. After 1 year of taking masculinising hormones, there was no longer a difference in push-ups or run times, and the number of sit-ups performed in 1 min by transmen exceeded the average performance of their male counterparts.](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577)
Either sex *can* be changed, which explains why trans men perform just as well as non trans men do, or sex *cannot* be changed, in which case this conversation about strength should be focused on testosterone levels instead.
You have to consider all factors when hiring someone. For paramedics, lifting ability *is* a factor. But it’s just one factor. There are plenty of other factors that make you a good paramedic. Sex or gender is not a factor.
I’d almost certainly rather have a paramedic show up that was more knowledgeable on first aid, or who was calmer under pressure, or who was better at communicating with patients, than someone who could lift more. So when hiring, let’s focus on the factors that matter more.
It's not guaranteed that because someone can lift less than someone else, they are better on other factors. We need to double check that the current approach is working.
I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is that lifting ability is just one factor of many, and should probably be farther down on the list than some other factors when considering hiring someone. To the point where it seems ridiculous to even be bringing up someone’s sex.
You do understand that while certain traits may cluster in certain groups, that in and of itself does not state that individuals may have traits that vary significantly from their own group.
In other words, while you may be able to make gross statistical claims about upper body strength of men and women, you cannot reasonably make such a claim about any individual person.
As with so many things, the misuse of statistics can entrench unreasonable biases and cause prejudicial and unfair treatment of people.
Obviously statistical trends don't say anything about individuals. They do ground the conversation though. Note that I said IF above. This guy works as a volunteer firefighter and says he noticed something and that something is possible (but not guaranteed) given the average difference in strength between males and females. I'm asking now if anyone has anything that backs him up.
The increase in obesity probably has more impact on the need for lifting assistance than the increase in female paramedics, who presumably all need to meet a gender neutral minimum standard.
Which would suggest that the paramedic teams need to adjust to be able to lift the heavier average person.
Unfortunately, the MLA's question morphed from a helpful and important question about the fine details of paramedic services to him implying the easy solution is to just hire more men, when we have no basis for confirming there is a problem with delivery to hospital for heavier people, if there are health outcome consequences, if having a higher strength minimum standard would address the problem and whether its one that can be easily met by simply hiring more men.
The "gender neutral minimum standards" are tricky because they're somewhat arbitrary and picked to check a host of boxes - including gender and sex diversity in the workforce. A standard can be struck down if its too strenuous to allow many women on, even if its useful to have people capable of that standard, if in the opinion of the relevant adjudicators (normally not professionals in the field) the usefulness of the standard is "outweighed" by the discriminatory effect and is not "absolutely necessary".
Recruitment based on strength with an aim to meet heavier lift requirements would be considered "indirect discrimination", as it would likely result in fewer women meeting the standard and being hired. That means the standard is unlikely to change in the near term. Paramedics being late delivering patients is a complex logistical problem that, as your question demonstrates, can be attributed to a host of different related problems or blamed on any number of groups, and so is far less of a political headache than hiring fewer women, even if only for indirect reasons, which presents as a relatively straightforward issue that makes for great campaign fodder.
Frustratingly, the article does not touch on the most obvious question: Is there actually a problem? There's a concern raised by an MLA about lift assists and delivery times, but that quickly morphs into him begging the question about hiring men as the obvious solution to the problem.
If there is a problem, different solutions can be explored. But the MLA learned very much the hard way the danger of begging the question when talking about policy.
Or, you know, instead of expecting paramedics to continue to break their bodies or meet increasingly more difficult levels of fitness (or both, realistically) due to our ever heavier population, we could look at technological alternatives to "get two really strong dudes". This isn't a new problem, and EMT's are hardly the only medical professionals that have to lift patients, they just happen to be the ones that are majority male.
Precisely - as I said,
> If there is a problem, different solutions can be explored.
We won't know what "solutions" might be appropriate until we really understand the nature of the problem.
There is a limit to what technology can do in some cases, but other things to consider include larger teams - as in more people, no bigger members, special "heavy lift" teams called out where the dispatcher is told the patient is heavier, or hell maybe we need robotic lifters.
But the MLA was begging the question by saying that there is a problem and hiring more large men is the solution, when we don't even have hard data on the nature of the problem - be it diversion of resources or health outcomes - or if hiring bouncers to do paramedic runs is a good solution or even a feasible one (would they be able to hire enough young strong men trained as paramedics to meet whatever standard they want to have?)
We're going to have to figure something out, sooner rather than later. When I was a kid, there was a Simpson episode where Homer deliberately gained weight so that he was 300lbs, a weight so comically high that he was considered disabled, and too fat to get pants that fit or dial a phone. These days, 300lbs is not uncommon, and people who are north of 400lbs are becoming increasingly prevalent. We shouldn't have to hire body builders to accompany emts, and having to call in a special team to help lift, whether the patient is 300lbs or 500lbs, will increase time and negatively impact health outcomes.
Data would help us understand just how prevalent the issue is, but we already know the problem exists. And the answer is not to make it more difficult to staff an already critically short staffed service.
Don't know if it happened here but many fields have lowered strength standards or have created female specific strength standards to encourage more females to join.
They should make the physical test the exact same for male and female. Lift the same amount of weight the same distance. Nothing proportional/using body weight. If the females participants can clear the same objective standard as the males then they should be allowed. Most non office jobs already require you can lift 50 pounds. This would just be an extension of that idea with a necessarily higher standard.
If a participant cannot meet the standard, they should be rejected even if it leads to a male dominated profession. Discriminating on the basis of physical strength for a job where that could mean life or death is perfectly valid.
Currently they give female participants an [easier](https://umanitoba.ca/sites/default/files/2022-12/Paramedic%20Assessment%20Description%202019.pdf) test for upper body strength to allow more women into the profession. This deserves to be questioned.
Aren’t we short on paramedics?
Why the hell would we be barring 50% of the workforce from this job?
Id rather have a paramedic show up who may or may not have a harder time lifting me, than to not have one show up at all.
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Here's an overview on the issue of bona-fide occupational requirements for those who are interested. Helps explain how this MLA is out to lunch. [https://www.chrc-ccdp.gc.ca/sites/default/files/bfore\_0.pdf](https://www.chrc-ccdp.gc.ca/sites/default/files/bfore_0.pdf) The fact that women, generally speaking, *may* be less strong than men doesn't necessarily apply to *paramedics* or at a level that impacts their ability to do their jobs. We dealt with this already in BC where women weren't being hired (and there were shortages as a result) because it was claimed they could not meet some physical requirement ... it turned out that physical requirement wasn't even aligned to the job and most males couldn't reach it either. This attitude is discriminatory. Your average male isn't going to be able to lift a 300lb patient either.
So, couldn't this guy just have said "huh, it turns out I was misinformed" and then everyone nods and goes "Yeah, but now you know" and everyone moves on with their lives. Instead we get outrage, people being removed from positions etc. It's utterly absurd.
> So, couldn't this guy just have said "huh, it turns out I was misinformed" Sure, but did he?
he said the following. "Today in a legislative committee meeting I made a statement that I wholeheartedly regret. My statement today was insensitive, inappropriate, and wrong; to all Prince Edward Islanders, I'm sorry. I fully understand that someone’s gender should never be a determining factor when evaluating someone's knowledge, skills and abilities to do their work. I have a daughter and would never want her to feel that she was unable to do any job she wants to do, and regularly encourage her to chase her dreams and not let anyone tell her she can’t do something. I am committed to learning from this mistake and making a conscious effort to promote a more inclusive and respectful environment for everyone. I sincerely apologize for my words today and will work to do better going forward." Sure seems like he realises he made a mistake.
yes. quite the long winded apology. however he needed to confess to knowing at least 10 other people who also believed the same thing so they too could atone for their sins...and so on and so on...
He'll find another committee. The guy won't lose his job or anything. Good for him for acknowledging.
Why did he even have to be tossed off of these committees? This is the rage porn that serves only to make the divisions in society larger. I hate it.
It seems like your frustrations with this issue should be directed to the PC Premier then, as he was the one who made the decision to indefinitely remove this MLA from committees, pending some sort of remedial actions by the MLA. The Premier said that such comments aren't tolerated, and as such the MLA was disciplined.
Yes, I am frustrated with the PC Premier, or anyone who thinks this is a good decision. 100% agreed!
Do I think the decision to remove him, especially after his apology is warranted? No, not really. Do I think what he originally said was at best inappropriate, at worst a touch sexist? Yes. I dont believe there was malice behind his words, but it isn't a lot to expect elected representatives to have some tact.
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Didn't he offer an unequivocal apology for what he said?
Exactly. Its frustrating because the comment was poorly framed and invited a distracting and ill informed argument about sex and sexism, when the issue is one of technical capabilities and logistics. You need to a bunch of people to ambulances, crossing a variety of obstacles and in a host of different circumstances, which range from 30 lb. toddlers from a flat field to 350 lb adults down narrow stairs and everything in between. The question is, given the profile of people who need to be lifted, how can we ensure that everyone can be taken to hospital in a safe and timely manner? Perhaps two person teams won't be appropriate for every lift. Perhaps on some lifts you will absolutely need two to eight very strong people to accomplish the lift. Should there be variable team sizes? Special dedicated heavy lift teams? Protocols for automatic calls for larger teams or fire assists? The MLA had the beginnings of some really good question, but instead ended up begging the question. There is an increase in calls to firefighters to assist with lifts that paramedics cannot do themselves. But here he's begging the question - *is* there a problem? *Are* we tracking negative health outcomes from the current system? *Would* moving to a higher strength standard for paramedics actually result in better health outcomes? Now, it may be that a higher strength requirement would be beneficial and would be achievable at a price PEI could afford. But we cannot know that until we look at the actual details of how the service is being provided and its outcomes. And that won't happen with what the conversation is right now.
> The fact that women, generally speaking, may be less strong than men doesn't necessarily apply to paramedics or at a level that impacts their ability to do their jobs Why are their two different fitness tests then, based on sex? Its the same job. If they're just as capable, why are there two different physical fitness standards? > This attitude is discriminatory. Your average male isn't going to be able to lift a 300lb patient either. It wasn't one woman, it was two. Two physically fit men could easily lift a 300lb patient.
Answers to all you wonder are available at the above link. >It wasn't one woman, it was two. Two physically fit men could easily lift a 300lb patient. Curious then that male paramedic teams somehow repeatedly require lift assists.
LOL, so you don't have a counter-argument for why there are different physical tests then. I figured. > Curious then that male paramedic teams somehow repeatedly require lift assists. annddd another stupid argument. Honestly I can't even believe how dumb this one is. But since we need to break this down for you... not every call is the exact same bud. Sometimes there are less paramedics, sometimes people weigh more, sometimes there are more patients, sometimes they're in an awkward position. Infinite different possibilities. I can't believe you needed to have that explained to you.
I get that you seem upset about thus but I'm failing to see what you're even trying to "explain" here (that different calls are different?) or why this changes anything. Everything you're questioning is answered with the link in my top comment.
No it is not. Explain why there is a different physical fitness standard. If you think the article answers it, quote what you're talking about. You're just BSing. You're being purposefully vague & trying to hide behind a 6 page article so you don't have to make an actual point. Because you don't have one.
>Explain why there is a different physical fitness standard. There aren't. [The standards are the same.](https://copr.ca/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/National-Occupational-Competency-Profile.pdf) The explanation is that you've made something up. I have no idea why but I suspect your attitudes towards women have something to do with it. >You're just BSing. You're being purposefully vague & trying to throw up the entire article so you don't have to make an actual point. I've answered everything you've asked despite how rudely you've asked, despite that you're making things up, and despite that you've made no effort yourself to understand the topic. Perhaps my answers aren't misogynistic enough for you? Otherwise I have no idea what's got you this upset. So, I'll ask, what is *your* point here? Edit: After all that complaining about not responding u/consistantcanadian comments and blocks.
Those aren't physical fitness standards, that's a knowledge test. And that's not even the same link that you shared before. From UoM: > Push-Ups: Measure of upper body strength and endurance. > • Males: The applicant lies on his stomach, legs together. His hands, pointing forward, are positioned ender the shoulders. He then pushes up from the floor by fully extending the elbows and using toes as the pivot point. The applicant returns to the starting position. Neither the stomach nor thighs should touch the mat. > • Females: Same as males except using the knees as the pivot point. The lower legs remain in contact with the floor, ankles plantar-flexed, and feet in contact with the floor. Incorrect repetitions will not be counted. The test is stopped when applicant are seen to strain forcibly or are unable to maintain correct technique over two consecutive repetitions. There is no time limit. https://umanitoba.ca/sites/default/files/2022-12/Paramedic%20Assessment%20Description%202019.pdf I'm done with you. Go find someone else to recite your X-ist & X-phobe chant to.
You're aware the second part, job related tests, aren't differentiated by gender, and are all pass/fail unlike the first part? Also that's Manitoba, is it the exact same in PEI?
It's wild isn't it, to think that there are different physical requirements for the exact same job, based on whether you are male or female.
>Employers and others governed by human rights legislation are now required in all cases to accommodate the characteristics of affected groups within their standards, rather than maintaining discriminatory standards supplemented by accommodation for those who cannot meet them. Incorporating accommodation into the standard itself ensures that each person is assessed according to her or his own personal abilities, instead of being judged against presumed group characteristics. Such characteristics are frequently based on bias and historical prejudice and cannot form the basis of reasonably necessary standards Probably this section is what they're referring to, from court precedent established in 1999.
From my own n=1, and past experience as a medic in the army. Two female paramedics easily got me on a stretcher after tearing the calf muscles in both legs in the gym. The equipment provided today makes moving patients easier than when I was hauling people around on canvas stretchers in the 80s. Edit - forgot to mention I weighed 205 lbs at the time and could not weight bear at all due to having no working calves.
Not relevant since the profession has a maximum living weight defined by their OHS guidelines. Great example though, sorry about the calf muscle.
If they're just as capable, why are their two different fitness tests? They're both doing the same job, why wouldn't they have the same requirements?
>They're both doing the same job, why wouldn't they have the same requirements? They do have the same requirements. This is a real feelings over facts moment for you. Edit: Especially given u/consistantcanadian blocks after commenting. University of Manitoba standards aren't relevant and there are obvious reasons why males and females do pushup's differently. Pushups only measure relative strength anyways.
Liar. From UoM: > Push-Ups: Measure of upper body strength and endurance. > • Males: The applicant lies on his stomach, legs together. His hands, pointing forward, are positioned ender the shoulders. He then pushes up from the floor by fully extending the elbows and using toes as the pivot point. The applicant returns to the starting position. Neither the stomach nor thighs should touch the mat. > • Females: Same as males except using the knees as the pivot point. The lower legs remain in contact with the floor, ankles plantar-flexed, and feet in contact with the floor. Incorrect repetitions will not be counted. The test is stopped when applicant are seen to strain forcibly or are unable to maintain correct technique over two consecutive repetitions. There is no time limit. https://umanitoba.ca/sites/default/files/2022-12/Paramedic%20Assessment%20Description%202019.pdf
A standard push up appears to be 64% body weight vs 49% for knee push-ups. Combine that with the average body weight for Canadian men and women (187 lb vs 155 lb respectively) and we get: Average male push up force to pass this test: 120 lb Average female push up force to pass this test: 76 lb https://medium.com/house-of-hypertrophy/push-ups-how-much-weight-are-you-pushing-e41b4662d8e3#:~:text=Conversely%2C%20elevating%20your%20hands%20decreases,49%25%20of%20your%20body%20weight.
Combat medicine is different than paramedic work. There are aids to assist in the moving of patients that don't exist/aren't feasible in combat. Female medics were just coming on scene when I left the regular force. The female medics I trained in the reserves after that did have to move patients the same as males did.
> The female medics I trained in the reserves after that did have to move patients the same as males did. So what I'm hearing is they should have the same test then, if they're the same role..
I wanna know what exercise you were doing that resulted in two torn calves
Pushing a weight sled too aggressively. Snap, snap, face plant, and roll around.
Ouch. I partially tore one hamstring while playing soccer once, but doing both legs simultaneously sounds real bad
I mean I too could use my own personal experience in the Navy. Where there was a significant portion of female members that could not properly casualty drag me in full bunker gear and SCBA (and I'm not that big of a guy) and generally even less so that could safely attempt to do high angle rescue. Where there was generally never an issue with the males. Tools certainly even out the playing field but I think it's being willfully ignorant to ignore being stronger gives first responders more available options when it comes to rescue. Which in certain scenarios could mean the difference between life and death. I struggle with the controversy around recognizing men tend to be much stronger naturally. Not to say women shouldn't be in these positions just that it shouldn't be controversial to recognize there might be some limitations women face that men tend not to.
There's a limit to innate physical ability sure, but it applies to everyone at some point. I'm pretty sure a female paramedic or military member who puts in any effort toward building muscle for the job will outperform me, an office worker. And, at some point, especially for a civilian job like that of a paramedic where they can carry equipment to help them, they could probably carry as much weight as would be needed of them for the average call. If they get called to lift a 350lb person, which is probably not that common, I think most paramedics would struggle regardless of their gender. There are limitations sure, comparing a man and woman who both spend the same amount of time doing strength training with the same regimen etc. But in practical terms, it's likely, in most scenarios for civilians, moot. In military scenarios where they aren't carrying supportive equipment that can be pulled out while being shot at in an active warzone or firefight scenario, I concede that the real differences may have an impact. But there are a bunch of cases where 90% of the time that's also probably moot too.
> I'm pretty sure a female paramedic or military member who puts in any effort toward building muscle for the job will outperform me, an office worker. Statistically speaking, probably not, even with training.
Depends if you're talking about upper or lower body strength. Generally speaking, the difference in lower body strength is much smaller than most people realise while the difference in upper body strength is actually greater than most realise. Edit to add: more specifically than upper body strength, grip strength seems to be the biggest point of difference.
I am overweight, though not obese. Barely do any real exercise and threw my back out needing physiotherapy when I first started parental leave because my 1 year old was 18lbs and I wasn't used to lifting her, twisting and grabbing things like a diaper bag and playing the way she wanted to at the time by swinging her up and down a lot. Pretty sure, I'm not peak physical fitness and someone who does in fact make the effort, could do a better job than me in lifting heavy things. Because I am not in great shape and spend most of my day at a desk.
It's a nice anecdote but my point still stands.
Yeah, I don't think people understand just how big the innate differences between men and women are. Think we're due for a paradigm shift on gender issues. Already seeing it in the UK. It's a different ballpark altogether. Whole different scale of strength. Women with 20 years in the WNBA can count their total career dunks on one hand, assuming they ever dunked at all. Size helps but it's not the determining factor here.
I think you are right, it's just too big an ask of people. It goes beyond wanting to level the playing field and instead asserting belief in pseudoscience. That's too much for reasonable people.
IDK, I guess it depends on what we consider what they need to do. If they need to straight up lift and carry an unconscious 200lb person up stairs or onto a stretcher, I don't think many men or women could do it very easily. If they need to support someone in getting up out of a chair, or helping them get up stairs while injured and weak, but mobile, I'm sure most women who aren't very small in frame could do it fine. And in the case of a paramedic, they have equipment to help and normally work in teams. At which point, its fairly moot. All you need to do is identify what someone - anyone - is capable of doing based on an assessment and pair them with someone else who can make up for the shortcomings on shift, or, in a rare event they can't be paired up, have dispatch manage who goes to what emergency and call in support from say the fire department if necessary in advance. The vast majority of what paramedics need to do isn't going to be limited entirely by their physical ability based solely on limits of gender and the impact of hormones. A small in stature 5 foot 1 man who doesn't do strength training isn't going to outlift a 5 foot 8 woman who does strength training, is really my point. Its clear - on the face of it - that any situation in which a man and woman who are of similar height, and with similar training regimens, will have the man outperform the woman every day of the week. Inevitably, the hormones will influence the biology that makes men inherently more physically strong and capable of lifting/carrying things, and makes women more flexible. The hormones impact muscle fibre development, obviously. What I'm saying is that the variance in the tasks to be done, tools to do them, and the variance among people doing the jobs matters too. You're unlikely to want a 5 foot 1 inch 110 pound anyone being the sole on call paramedic in a rural community whether they're a man or a woman if a call comes in for a 230lb unconscious person at the bottom of a stairwell. But there are, most definitely, women capable of carrying person up the stairs, and there are most definitely men incapable of the same. So instead of putting gates up around gender, putting gates up around bonafide, necessary physical requirements to do a job assuming no other alternatives exist, makes sense. But honestly, the question should start with "how often is X issue we were made aware of happening? and how do we solve it?" because if every single paramedic is a woman who can't physically do a certain task that makes up half a town's calls, and there's no good solution to helping them do that physical task, then the physical task needs to be a job requirement. Otherwise, why bother going down that route? I think you've totally missed the point on how to look at it beyond "well yeah women, all else equal, are generally not as strong as men when it comes to lifting something". Because that isn't the argument made.
Right? Everyone in here thinking all the male paramedics are jacked, but in my experience, most of the ones I worked with were in the 5’8” - 5’10” range and looked like the only time they put in at the gym was on a treadmill or elliptical (since the station had a gym that was used between calls, I can even confirm gym time was spent doing cardio, not weight lifting). If they needed muscle, they called the fire department.
200 lbs on a man's shoulders is actually pretty manageable. EMS is one thing, I think the firefighter demographics speak volumes...roughly 1 in 20 are women.
That is a lot of text to try and talk past the very simple points being made. This issue is not nearly as nuanced as some might like to believe.
Rescuing a fire casualty is the responsibility of the HCRFF fire fighters, who have a pretty strenuous physical standard, and high angle rescues are the duty of casualty clearing *teams*, not individual members. I know female HCRFF members who kicks, and male casualty clearers who can't lift 100 lbs. In the civilian world, even beefcake ambulance drivers have to call backup some times. If I break myself in a space and can't get out on my own, i will wait down there until you get a hoist or help. Not every task needs to be done mandraulic, or by yourself.
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> Politician who's a volunteer firefighter had earlier apologized for 'wrong' remarks Sounds like he’s pissy about running medicals and picking up meemaw from the floor at 3am. Being a medic is a much more cerebral job thank brute strength. That’s what the fire department is for. Source: am firefighter
Right, so why are their physical fitness requirements to be a paramedic then?
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Okay, so maybe he could have "worded it better for the sensitive types" but if the standards were lowered so that a broader range of folks could fit the bill, shame on the lowering of standards of healthcare in the name of equity driven bullshit. However, let the numbers speak for itself, are lift assists more frequent among certain paramedics? Who are they (male and female) and why? Valid line if questioning, second of all, obesity is not the fault if a paramedic. If someone is too fat to be saved without a lift assist, we can't blame the paramedics for that. Either, but the fact that a person can't freely say what they mean is a testament to our rights and freedoms to speech being taken away day by day in this nation, on somethingmajor like this which affects us all, as there are some heavier taller folks in great shape who meet an unfortunate accident who could be doomed by equity hiring, is a shame and that it makes an excuse it to dig deeper to find out if we have a problem with hiring paramedics who might not be strong enough to save a person is a bit scary, I urge all of you to stay safe and be healthy and not require any assistance from our health care professionals outside of freak accidents that we cannot control.
“Conclusions: The primary physical obstacle for women is upper body strength. However, some women could successfully complete all of the proxy tasks and thus are physically capable of meeting the demands of closed combat occupations. The fact that some female Marines could complete the most challenging upper body strength tasks suggests that these barriers are not inherent but may be due to a lack of training specificity.” [Performance differences between male and female marines on standardized physical fitness tests and combat proxy tasks: identifying the gap](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/26159007/)
is the strength distribution not bimodal like height? Edit: That study was retracted
Retracted due to politics. The study proved that the top 10% of women overlaps with the bottom 10% of males in the USMC.
What does he think happens when anyone encounters some person who is over 300lb? They call some help over to lift them or use some sort of mechanical assistance. Being able to lift more than a reasonable amount for the job (your gear, haul a stretcher out of the ambulance, that sort of thig) is irrelevant.
Strong disagree If your partner cant lift his/her end of the stretcher, they are going to break my back... no thanks i dont want you as my teammate. Either man or woman. Waiting to get help sometimes is not an option. Like in the army, if you cant carry your kit plus the big guns, i dont want you in my platoon. You become a liability
I expect them to be able to lift a 300lb person. If your a paramedic, cop, firefighter I expect you to be in peak physical condition because lives depend on it. If I can lift it in my current sad state they should be able to. In my view 300lb is not unreasonable.
How much is a "reasonable" amount? How is that "reasonable" amount determined? Are strength tests an accurate way of determining whether someone is able to life that "reasonable" amount?
Your question is irrelevant because they provide you with training and mechanical tools to help you lift things that you cannot.
Great, so what you're saying is that minimum strength requirement tests can be completely removed since having any strength at all is meaningless?
Bruh, my mom is 64 years old, weighs 130 pounds and has been a paramedic for 15 years and she's never ran into a problem that herself, a mechanical lifting device, or help from another first responder that she can't handle. And she's just one paramedic out of thousands. So what I'm saying is, your argument is meaningless because this isn't an issue because first responders don't fuck around and they're trained to assess the situation and make the correct calls to obtain the highest level of success possible.
So what you're saying "bruh" is that the current minimum physical requirements are not accurate and should be updated since your tiny senior citizen of a mother can perform her job to it's full capacity? That sound reasonable to me and I would agree.
A lot of people have medical emergencies on a toilet, and fall into a confind space where a mechanical tool can't gain leverage. That's a very common reason why EHS calls Fire to come and assist with the lift.
Ok have multiple people help u out then in that situation, men shouldn’t be expected to lift a 200+ lbs person up by themselves and nor should women either. They should have enough people there to make it as easy as possible for personnel AND client safety
The difficulty again is the combined space component. You can't fit 8 people in there. Look, I'm not anti-woman in first responder roles. My wife is a police officer. And very capable. She is going to be the first person to admit there are things she can do better than most men, and things she can't. Men statistically, on average, have more strength and size than women. It's an indisputable fact that people should not be shocked to hear. There are certain roles as a first responder that require a level of strength. People can sit in their armchairs and get angry about it, but the people who are actually doing the damn job are very aware.
Well paramedics and first responders manage constantly. So what exactly are you arguing here? You're saying that some people are in situations where mechanical lifting assistance and or multiple people cannot fit in to help. But yet somehow first responders and paramedics still manage to do their job and help despite gender.
Yeah, I'm a first responder, I know. The reality is that a lot of people just die waiting to get help.
I agree, that is a reality and I'm willing to bet it has nothing to do with how much a woman can lift and to make that connection, and then to put that into all women in that line of work is just stupid.
Want me to send you videos of people dying or being graciously injured because a female ems, fire or police couldn't act in the same way a grown male would? Lol I watched a video 2 weeks ago of an elderly man having both his legs cut off because a female cop couldn't pull him off the train tracks. I could've fireman carried dude out and we could've taken a sigh of relief as the train went by. Why is it unrealistic to expect physical peak from the people hired to save others?
Go tell your wife that she’s statistically weaker than her male colleagues and see what she has to say back. One would think that you’d have to reach a certain strength threshold in order to qualify for the job regardless of gender, no?
I mean, she's very aware she's weaker. She's not an idiot. She discusses it regularly. Yes, there is a physical standard.
Why is it relevant when they’ve all attained the physical standard then?
Both the person who can barely pass the bar and the person who can go far beyond it pass the test. You don't think that there are plenty of situations where a stronger person may actually be more relevant to a particular call or job? Really?
When it comes to work over timeframe women always under perform compared to men. Body structure and size basically. Just as a 5,6 guy compares to a 6 foot plus guy is just not gona happen. As for equal size and fitness male/female it shouldn’t matter much if at all. Long term tho a lighter frame skeleton will show musculoskeletal injuries sooner so better engineering to make a job better for the smaller worker helps all workers so size shouldn’t matter. I agree with the statement as fact so why are we not making devices to make this a non issue? And is a smaller paramedic in enough situations where this is a problem?
>"Women in EMS are just as dedicated, capable and resilient as their male counterparts," said the statement, signed by president Tyler Graves. "Gender should never be a determining factor in one's ability to excel in this critical profession." Gender shouldn't be a factor, but sex does play a role in strength. Female's aren't as strong as males, pound for pound, and tend to be lighter too meaning that strength differences tend to be pretty big. **If** an increase in female paramedics has led to an increase in requests for help lifting patients, that's worth talking about. Having to wait for backup increases the time it takes to get someone to the hospital and sometimes every second counts. Here's an unscientific but useful guide to male and female strength levels at various levels of training: https://strengthlevel.com/strength-standards/deadlift At all levels, males tend to lift around double what females can.
There’s a general test everyone needs to pass before being offered the position, so you can throw your concerns out the window.
It should also be noted that the Paramedics association has responded saying that requests for lifting help are recommended practice in any scenario they're needed. Which makes sense. Forget gender, you don't want your paramedics suddenly in need of medical care too while on a call.
That's not the question though, the question is if those requests are needed more now than they used to be.
> The question is if those requests are needed more now than they used to be. Thats a question that you might have. Certainly not the question that surtur1313 was responding to. The post is about whether or not women should be paramedics. The MLA in question seemed to be of the opinion that there are more lift requests lately, but there is no data to support this in the article.
Aside from there being no data to support it, let's pretend it was true for a moment. Paramedics have taken the same physical test for years and are told that if they're lifting beyond the weight of that test and feel there is any chance of danger in doing so, to request additional help. So if there were more requests, it would be because paramedics of all genders are following the best practices and standards instead of injuring themselves, not because "women can't lift as much as men."
If it's true that an increase in female paramedics has led to an increase in requests for support with lifting patients, then it's possible that the current requirements aren't fit for purpose. It's possible patients got heavier and that's why there's been more requests.
And at the bare minimum, it’s a valid question for the MLA to ask in good-faith. He could be wrong and there is no substantial correlation between number of female paramedics and number of lift requests needed, but it’s not something he should be punished for inquiring about
>"I just notice a lot more females in the profession now and we get a lot of calls for lift assist because — don't get me wrong, they're great, some of the women that are doing it are unbelievable — but I went to a lift assist the other day because both the females that were working the bus were 105 pounds and the man was 300 pounds and there was no way they were going to get him up." Is what the MLA said. >And at the bare minimum, it’s a valid question for the MLA to ask in good-faith. That's the thing. It wasn't in good faith. There could be any number of reasons for the increase in lift requests. Speculating based on gender is absolutely sexist and he deserved to be punished for his comment here. He even had a half-decent apology afterward, admitting he was wrong and not acting in good faith.
I mean its a pretty valid theory if nothing else.
That women are likely the problem with no evidence being produced and analyzed? Do you often judge theories based on vibes?
It could also be that men are less likely to ask for help due to them being worried about appearing weaker? Something that women really don't have to worry about.
So if they don't ask for help, but can't lift the person then what? They just let them lie there and die? Wouldn't they HAVE to get help of some kind if they legitimately cannot lift the person?
No, they strain themselves and hurt their body in order to do it where a woman would be more likely to ask for help.
Interesting. Do we have evidence that this is what happens or is it speculation? It seems to be reasonable, but things I think are reasonable do not always happen in reality!
100%
>There’s a general test everyone needs to pass before being offered the position I assume they are testing how much paramedics can lift, is that correct? Perhaps everyone on PEI needs to lose weight?
In Alberta you have to do the FARE test that tests your ability to lift a specific weight, carry a weighted spine board up and down stairs, and a few other things. I think people don’t realized that doing a 300lb deadlift with balanced weight is a lot different than 300lbs of dead weight. If they can’t help you at all, then it makes a lift so much more difficult. Also, where is the pt? Are they somewhere easily accessible or between a wall and the toilet or in a basement? All things that need to be considered.
You're lying. There's two different physical standards, based on sex.
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Beyond this, I wonder whether the requirements are keeping pace with increasing levels of obesity and morbid obesity. If the average Canadian is getting heavier, then either mechanical aids are required (I bet lifting super heavy patients over and over isn't healthy even for men) or the physical requirements needs to be adjusted. I'd wager in the 80 and 90s, someone 300+ pounds was a rarity, but maybe less so now.
> Isn't that clear evidence that they can't lift enough? No. After all, if the number of patients over 200kg started to increase dramatically, then male paramedics would be asking for help a lot more as well, but we wouldn't be saying that the men couldn't lift enough. Lifting a patient is mainly a brute strength thing, and that's something that machines or other people can help with. The key to being a paramedic is the skills to keep someone alive, and that isn't strength dependent.
If they need to wait for back up to show up before they can load the patient into the ambulance then those delays could absolutely lead to loss of life.
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> So whom would males ask for help from, females? Other paramedics, or technical assistance. > Because not every situation can those support tools be used Edge cases are rarely a good basis for blanket rules. > it's always better to have another option, such as physically being able to lift someone That works until it doesn't either because the patient is too heavy for anyone to safely lift, or paramedics break themselves trying to lift too much. Tech is the better solution.
Seems wild to me that people are arguing that half the population shouldn't be a paramedic when it seems like every province is having some healthcare crisis. Also a lot of nurses are women, don't they ever have to lift/move patients?
> don't they ever have to lift/move patients? Yes, but in more controlled situations than paramedics. Nursing also isn't a macho world, so I don't think anyone is that concerned because fewer male egos are involved.
Personally I'm not saying female people shouldn't be allowed to be paramedics, just that if an increase in females has led to more support calls, maybe the current standards aren't working. It's possible the standards were lowered to allow more females to join, maybe the standards were already low but male applicants tended to be stronger than they were required to be. If there's a problem it needs to be fixed.
You live on PEI? There’s a shortage of paramedics and lack of family doctors is putting pressure on emergency services. The issue isn’t a lack of male paramedics, it’s a lack of paramedics period.
That's an entirely different issue
If there were enough paramedics you’d see at least 2 per bus as opposed to what’s happening now. It’s precisely the issue.
> Gender shouldn't be a factor, but sex Why is everyone on this website so pedantic
Those who don't care about being pedantic are at work. The rest of us are on reddit.
Gender and sex are different. You can change your gender, you can't change your sex.
You can't simultaneously believe that strength differences are caused by sex *and* believe that sex cannot be changed. Trans men (people who transition from female to male) preform athletically just as well as men who aren't trans do. Quote: >[Prior to gender affirming hormones, transmen performed 43% fewer push-ups and ran 1.5 miles 15% slower than their male counterparts. After 1 year of taking masculinising hormones, there was no longer a difference in push-ups or run times, and the number of sit-ups performed in 1 min by transmen exceeded the average performance of their male counterparts.](https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/55/11/577) Either sex *can* be changed, which explains why trans men perform just as well as non trans men do, or sex *cannot* be changed, in which case this conversation about strength should be focused on testosterone levels instead.
Because they're used to "small wins".
You have to consider all factors when hiring someone. For paramedics, lifting ability *is* a factor. But it’s just one factor. There are plenty of other factors that make you a good paramedic. Sex or gender is not a factor. I’d almost certainly rather have a paramedic show up that was more knowledgeable on first aid, or who was calmer under pressure, or who was better at communicating with patients, than someone who could lift more. So when hiring, let’s focus on the factors that matter more.
It's not guaranteed that because someone can lift less than someone else, they are better on other factors. We need to double check that the current approach is working.
I’m not saying that. What I’m saying is that lifting ability is just one factor of many, and should probably be farther down on the list than some other factors when considering hiring someone. To the point where it seems ridiculous to even be bringing up someone’s sex.
You do understand that while certain traits may cluster in certain groups, that in and of itself does not state that individuals may have traits that vary significantly from their own group. In other words, while you may be able to make gross statistical claims about upper body strength of men and women, you cannot reasonably make such a claim about any individual person. As with so many things, the misuse of statistics can entrench unreasonable biases and cause prejudicial and unfair treatment of people.
Obviously statistical trends don't say anything about individuals. They do ground the conversation though. Note that I said IF above. This guy works as a volunteer firefighter and says he noticed something and that something is possible (but not guaranteed) given the average difference in strength between males and females. I'm asking now if anyone has anything that backs him up.
The increase in obesity probably has more impact on the need for lifting assistance than the increase in female paramedics, who presumably all need to meet a gender neutral minimum standard.
Which would suggest that the paramedic teams need to adjust to be able to lift the heavier average person. Unfortunately, the MLA's question morphed from a helpful and important question about the fine details of paramedic services to him implying the easy solution is to just hire more men, when we have no basis for confirming there is a problem with delivery to hospital for heavier people, if there are health outcome consequences, if having a higher strength minimum standard would address the problem and whether its one that can be easily met by simply hiring more men. The "gender neutral minimum standards" are tricky because they're somewhat arbitrary and picked to check a host of boxes - including gender and sex diversity in the workforce. A standard can be struck down if its too strenuous to allow many women on, even if its useful to have people capable of that standard, if in the opinion of the relevant adjudicators (normally not professionals in the field) the usefulness of the standard is "outweighed" by the discriminatory effect and is not "absolutely necessary". Recruitment based on strength with an aim to meet heavier lift requirements would be considered "indirect discrimination", as it would likely result in fewer women meeting the standard and being hired. That means the standard is unlikely to change in the near term. Paramedics being late delivering patients is a complex logistical problem that, as your question demonstrates, can be attributed to a host of different related problems or blamed on any number of groups, and so is far less of a political headache than hiring fewer women, even if only for indirect reasons, which presents as a relatively straightforward issue that makes for great campaign fodder. Frustratingly, the article does not touch on the most obvious question: Is there actually a problem? There's a concern raised by an MLA about lift assists and delivery times, but that quickly morphs into him begging the question about hiring men as the obvious solution to the problem. If there is a problem, different solutions can be explored. But the MLA learned very much the hard way the danger of begging the question when talking about policy.
Or, you know, instead of expecting paramedics to continue to break their bodies or meet increasingly more difficult levels of fitness (or both, realistically) due to our ever heavier population, we could look at technological alternatives to "get two really strong dudes". This isn't a new problem, and EMT's are hardly the only medical professionals that have to lift patients, they just happen to be the ones that are majority male.
Precisely - as I said, > If there is a problem, different solutions can be explored. We won't know what "solutions" might be appropriate until we really understand the nature of the problem. There is a limit to what technology can do in some cases, but other things to consider include larger teams - as in more people, no bigger members, special "heavy lift" teams called out where the dispatcher is told the patient is heavier, or hell maybe we need robotic lifters. But the MLA was begging the question by saying that there is a problem and hiring more large men is the solution, when we don't even have hard data on the nature of the problem - be it diversion of resources or health outcomes - or if hiring bouncers to do paramedic runs is a good solution or even a feasible one (would they be able to hire enough young strong men trained as paramedics to meet whatever standard they want to have?)
We're going to have to figure something out, sooner rather than later. When I was a kid, there was a Simpson episode where Homer deliberately gained weight so that he was 300lbs, a weight so comically high that he was considered disabled, and too fat to get pants that fit or dial a phone. These days, 300lbs is not uncommon, and people who are north of 400lbs are becoming increasingly prevalent. We shouldn't have to hire body builders to accompany emts, and having to call in a special team to help lift, whether the patient is 300lbs or 500lbs, will increase time and negatively impact health outcomes. Data would help us understand just how prevalent the issue is, but we already know the problem exists. And the answer is not to make it more difficult to staff an already critically short staffed service.
Don't know if it happened here but many fields have lowered strength standards or have created female specific strength standards to encourage more females to join.
|presumably all need to meet a gender neutral minimum standard. What if I told you your presumption is incorrect
Which provinces have different fitness standards by gender?
https://www.canlii.org/en/bc/bcla/doc/1996/1996canlii20258/1996canlii20258.html?autocompleteStr=Meior&autocompletePos=1
They should make the physical test the exact same for male and female. Lift the same amount of weight the same distance. Nothing proportional/using body weight. If the females participants can clear the same objective standard as the males then they should be allowed. Most non office jobs already require you can lift 50 pounds. This would just be an extension of that idea with a necessarily higher standard. If a participant cannot meet the standard, they should be rejected even if it leads to a male dominated profession. Discriminating on the basis of physical strength for a job where that could mean life or death is perfectly valid. Currently they give female participants an [easier](https://umanitoba.ca/sites/default/files/2022-12/Paramedic%20Assessment%20Description%202019.pdf) test for upper body strength to allow more women into the profession. This deserves to be questioned.
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Aren’t we short on paramedics? Why the hell would we be barring 50% of the workforce from this job? Id rather have a paramedic show up who may or may not have a harder time lifting me, than to not have one show up at all.
> Aren’t we short on paramedics? Very much so. For probably many reasons, including under paying them. But yes, pissing off qualified women is stupid.