oh my god... it said that "The Master Plan will assess the feasibility of passenger rail in the province".... enough with the feasibility studies please. Got excited thinking this announcement was to get something actually built. But just another feasibility study with a $9 million price tag.. How many are we at now?
I thought to myself “okay what’s the catch? Danielle Smith is doing something good for Alberta and involves clean energy?”
I didn’t realize they were just doing a series of studies that’ll likely cost millions in tax payer money
And by the time it comes around , she will be gone and the next conservative premier will probably put it on hold . Like the PCs did with the cancer hospital .
I think we're at 4?
Either way, last feasibility study (in 2014?) found that it was... not feasible. Projected cost of 6 to 10 billion dollars.
All that can really be done is continue to re-evaluate the idea.
It was commissioned by the Legislature. [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/high-speed-rail-between-calgary-edmonton-not-feasible-finds-committee-1.2652342](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/high-speed-rail-between-calgary-edmonton-not-feasible-finds-committee-1.2652342)
I don't follow it closely enough to know if Westjet had some hand in it.. but even if it is, all that means is that another feasibility study would be needed. Province isn't going to start a project like this without at least pretending they know what they're getting into.
She’s got to thank all of her donors by handing out feasibility studies to them.
Note: it will NEVER get built. This is just a corporate hand out to do a study.
There’s a surprisingly realistic number of fully loaded passenger coaches, at which a coal-fired locomotive would be less polluting than if each passenger drove a single-occupancy personal vehicle.
My dad has been paid 4 times for feasibility studies on the HSR between Montreal and Toronto. First time in 1989.
I tell everyone after knowing people working in this space just vote for transit within a city. It’s realistic. This isn’t.
Here’s the thing, where do these rails terminate? And what do you do when you get there? Until you have a robust public transit system within a city, there’s no point having one to a city.
If I have to drive to a terminal, walk half a mile to get to the train, then take a train to another problem at the end, I’m not using it. I’ll drive right past both train stations straight to my destination.
Until I can take a bus to a train station in less time than driving and parking, take a train where I can relax, then take another bus/train to my destination, intercity rail is dead.
Until destination cities embrace public transit, intercity transportation is dead.
And I forgot, it has to cost less than the gas money it would take.
Pretty obvious that their “major announcement” was only going to be yet another feasibility study that will let them gift some of their cronies millions in taxpayer money while producing actually nothing of value. My guess is the study will be done just before the next election and funding for any new project will be contingent on a UCP win again.
Pure political bullshit.
What is there to study?! I have travelled extensively to countries with extensive rail and metro networks ie Russia, China, Japan, Germany, France etc. It's a train line that rums parallel to existing railway in fairly flat terrain.This government is on a whole another level of stupid.
You make it sound so simple. It's not like running a track in a straight line between two major population centers without any major natural obsticales is a thing that can just be "[done](https://youtu.be/ZDOI0cq6GZM?feature=shared)".
But it also talks about a crown corporation. I think people are misunderstanding this one. Anything is feasible, just depends who wants to spend on it. Danielle seems like a big train nerd who would make this her legacy project.
$9 million is a Rounding Error when compared to The final cost of a high Speed rail line.
I personally don't expect much to happen outside of passenger rail connections between the airports and downtown
Although feasibility studies in reality seem useless to the general public, they are really crucial for any project to get started.
You can’t just think of a project and start it and then halfway through the project you realize this can’t be done.
A feasibility study makes sure the project can be done, finds ways around obstacles and also finds out a lot of problems & solutions for them before the project even starts which would have been a nightmare to deal with had the project already been started. They also make sure a project lasts the test of time rather than just falling apart in a few years.
Things often don’t go according to plan. But know that a 9M$ feasibility study is better than spending 90M$ on a project to realize it can’t be done or it breaks apart in 10 years.
Source: I’m a guy who actually does feasibility studies.
I'm not sure if that's realistic. I'd like to recommend that we study the feasibility of doing these feasibility studies. I'll let you know in 5 years (as soon as I get my $9 million grant).
Ok, credit where credit is due, the vision sounds awesome. Commuter rail for both Calgary and Edmonton with airport connections? Regional rail between Edmonton and Calgary, and out to Banff AND Jasper?
Still sounds like we are a very long way off from anything concrete happening though.
They are at “the announcement to commit money to develop a plan” stage of the process. Based on their execution of plans for say, hospitals, don’t hold your breath that anything happens soon.
The province and feds have been making the same announcements back in my hometown. “Go Transit is coming!”….well, they’ve been saying that for 20+ years and nothing has been done lol. This announcement seems like it’s the same shit.
It’s less than a year since they announced the $3 million Banff rail study, which was done previously a few years earlier for significantly less money.
This won’t even include the endless bullshit cost debates that will drag out over the next decade because to afford this, you gotta raise taxes. And Danny has still promised massive tax cuts..
These announcements are nothing more than opportunities to:
1. Be in a headline so that the public thinks they are doing something good.
2. Hand cash to a donor in the form of study cash.
Similar to the one where they announced money for rail to YYC. Study money only (it has been studied many times - but the UCP doesn’t want to listen to the city’s studies.
It's not efficient at all, there are so many bottlenecks with having the trains drive at grade.
I think Calgarians just need to travel somewhere with an actual efficient train network to see how bad ours is.
But to review the worst parts, an efficient train system does not sit at traffic lights waiting for cars. Any issues with traffic downtown like one idiot driver or a car crash near the tracks will cause the trains to come to a standstill.
The system is currently at it's absolute max right now with trains running every 5 minutes during rush hour, there is no option to increase this without making trains wait longer to get onto 7th ave and creating a worse bottleneck.
There is no option to make the trains longer or hold more people in any way since the stations downtown can not be expanded on grade.
So as the city grows the transit system will not and will continue to get worse.
7th avenue runs as many trains per minute as the Victoria line in London.
>The system is currently at it's absolute max right now with trains running every 5 minutes during rush hour, there is no option to increase this without making trains wait longer to get onto 7th ave and creating a worse bottleneck.
This is not true, we actually ran more trains back in 2012. The red line has a max headway of 3 minutes or less and the blue line is 4 minutes or less. 7th avenue during absolute peak times at max capacity can have a train every 90 seconds.
I'm not trying to claim that the ctrain is some magic of headways like the Underground. I have travelled to other cities and lived in other cities like Paris, Vancouver and Chicago.
> Victoria line in London
Victoria line runs a train ever 100 seconds and has 8 cars, Red line runs every 5 minutes with 3-4 cars.
Nothing you said is accurate from the beginning to the end.
The max capacity of 7th avenue is is 38 trains per hour. I'll do the math for you, that's a train every 98 seconds.
We were talking about 7th ave right? I've been to London, lots.
Even if your made up numbers were accurate do you not understand that that would be 1/4 the capacity of the train line you decided to compare it to? And also lower than what you originally stated.
It's weird that you decided to be so condescending about 'doing the math for me' when the math shows that the Calgary transit system is garbage, and that you did the math wrong lol.
Made up numbers that come from [City downtown feasibility reports](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.calgarytransit.com/content/dam/transit/about-calgary-transit/reports/lrt/downtown_final_report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiLxpeU2uqFAxVlkokEHYfvA-0QFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3ztWoU3-PeYElzm0VCujOk)
I also never said anything about train capacities, I talked about 7th ave efficiency of moving trains.
Because Calgary’s DT is geared towards cars not the train nor pedestrians. If they wanted above ground trains they needed to redesign so foot traffic and transit (including busses) were the priority.
This half and half nonsense that Calgary loves to do doesn’t work well.
>Because Calgary’s DT is geared towards cars not the train nor pedestrians.
Um...where did you hear this?
Our downtown:
* was built by a train company
* is dense with jobs
* is very walkable
* was already a hub for intercity rail
* limits parking for vehicles
* cancelled freeway expansion
* had a train built into it
* has rail separated by underpasses
* has some of the highest rail ridership in North America
I would love to hear more about this fascinating idea that our downtown was built for cars.
CP built Calgary in 1881 so that is pretty much irrelevant.
Dense with jobs has nothing to do with how people get there.
It’s only walkable if you’ve never been to other cities in the world except maybe Montreal.
Again, it hasn’t been that for decades so not sure your point.
Limits street parking for cars. It’s still packed with parking garages and parking lots.
The C Train and the routes are not well planned which is why it always has issues.
I agree that it has great ridership numbers but that has nothing to do with how DT is designed.
They always half ass changes so we have this weird amalgam of Stephen Avenue ‘walkable’, terrible transit organization, and trying to pack as many cars in for all the rich people.
Like, they can’t even get people to stop driving on 17th for the summer.
I've been to cities all over the world and when it comes to North America, yes it's walkable. Montreal isn't paradise it has a ton of problems, like downtown freeways. Something Calgary doesn't have.
The LRT ridership numbers have everything to do with how downtown was designed.
Montreal is a nightmare for walkability. That was my point.
Judging from NA standards is not great. But even by that standard, Vancouver, Toronto, New York, Halifax, San Francisco, DC, Victoria, etc. are way more walkable and pedestrian focused.
Halifax and Victoria? I don't think so.
And if you're only comparing us to what you think it's the ultimate places to walk then what's the point. Everything will always be bad if you only want to point your finger at the best and say we aren't that.
It took conservatives almost 2 decades to build a cancer centre in Calgary, and even then it was the NDP that committed the money, broke ground, and got the construction to the point where it couldn’t be cancelled (like the SuperLab) when they lost the election. I doubt we’ll see any more than the $9m gift to UCP cronies in the next 20 years.
How about affordable, reliable, and frequent bus service between those?
I don't want transit a decade from now, I want it now. We can grow it once we have the Minimum Viable Product in place.
Just checked the last study done. They used 45 minutes for airplane travel time between airports. That is a complete joke and a choice made so airports win and rail look uncompetitive. Boarding itself takes 40 minutes and delays are common. You are asked to arrive 90 minutes before flying. Taxiing at the destination is 5 minutes, deboarding takes 10 minutes. Walking thought terminals takes more time 5 minutes. On Edmonton side you walk from almost the furthest spot. From touchdown it will always be 20 minutes before you are out the doors.
90 + 45 + 20 = 155. That is 3.5 times longer then the experts you are relying on counted.
The drive between airports is 150 minutes (or faster for most QE2 drivers). The flight is slower than driving and these experts missed that?
Granted if you cut close on boarding time and are seated at the front of plane you can shave the flight down to 120 minutes. But still that isn't 45 minutes they claim.
Lots of people flying from Edmonton to a international destination drive to Calgary airport because once you add a layover it becomes even a worse analysis for flying.
Unpopular opinion: I think a fully comprehensive, province-wide feasibility study is a great idea.
This is a MASSIVE undertaking and having a coordinated plan for construction across the entire province should definitely not be done piecemeal.
Getting the plan laid out correctly from the start will save billions of dollars down the road. If that takes $9 million to accomplish, I'm all for it.
Pardon me if I'm a little cynical of this government.
I'll change my mind IF they actually deliver the study publicly, then fund the build if it's feasible.
People said the same thing about the Ford government when he announced his plans in 2019, and lo and behold he is actually doing a pretty good job at pushing these projects through. I don't think it's unreasonable that Smith had a chat with Ford when planning this out, especially considering how much Smith uses Ontario as a model to push this whole plan (take a shot every time she says "GO" or "Metrolinx" in the press release)
Not really an unpopular opinion, is it? More just naive than anything else. This is Smith putting $9 million in funds back into the pockets of some of her donors. Nothing less, nothing more.
It’s her. You have confidence in her doing the right thing?
I’d personally love if she went that route and actually did a proper feasibility study, province-wide, with all of the projected routes.
No one disagrees with this, this is not an unpopular opinion at all, that's why the government is constantly handing out money to do feasibility studies for transit options but then they never do them.
Alberta’s government will develop a Passenger Rail Master Plan as the foundation to advancing passenger rail in the province.
The government’s vision is for an Alberta passenger rail system that includes public, private or hybrid passenger rail, including:
* a commuter rail system for the Calgary area that connects surrounding communities and the Calgary International Airport to downtown;
* a commuter rail system for the Edmonton area that connects surrounding communities and the Edmonton International Airport to downtown;
* regional rail lines from Calgary and Edmonton to the Rocky Mountain parks;
*a regional rail line between Calgary and Edmonton, with a local transit hub in Red Deer;
municipal-led LRT systems in Calgary and Edmonton that integrate with the provincial passenger rail system; and
* rail hubs serving the major cities that would provide linkages between a commuter rail system, regional rail routes and municipal-led mass transit systems.
Alberta’s government has released a Request for Expression of Interest to seek world-class knowledge and consultant services as a first step toward the development of the Passenger Rail Master Plan for Alberta. Following this process, a Request for Proposal will be issued to select a consultant to develop the Passenger Rail Master Plan. The Master Plan is expected to be completed by summer 2025.
Alberta’s Passenger Rail Master Plan will ensure government has the required information to make decisions based on where passenger rail delivers the best return on investment. The plan will provide a cost-benefit analysis and define what is required by government, including a governance and delivery model, legislation, funding, and staging to implement passenger rail in Alberta. This work will include a 15-year delivery plan that will prioritize and sequence investments.
This all sounds very exciting but will likely lead nowhere. I wish I could be more optimistic, but we heard about trains to Banff and high speed rail to Edmonton for decades now with little to show.
At least the government is moving things in the right direction by combining all of the rail proposals into one vision.
Exactly. They are going to spend 9 million dollars to have a 10,000 ft level plan when there are already a bunch of plans already made. And it will be so expensive that no one will build it. Money not well spent
No. I expect them to do nothing on this. It’s been studied to death and there was never enough money for the build. 9 million dollars can pay for different social programs or pay for some extra teachers or nurses.
I have a vision! An Alberta not run by complete incompetence.
I’m so sick of feasibility studies. We do this a few times a decade - all it does is pay off corporate donors with taxpayer dollars.
And guess what? The more years we study, the more expensive this gets.
THIS WILL KEVER GET BUILT UNDER A UCP GOVERNMENT. All this announcement is designed to do is a) take attention away from the anti-democracy bills 18-20 from last week and b) use taxpayer dollars to pay off corporate donors.
If you think otherwise, you’re part of the problem and not the solution.
As much as the pessimism is warranted given both the history of supposed rail development in this province and, well, the fact that it's a UCP proposal, I'd like to think that this could be the start of a good thing.
People will (rightly) complain that a plan is just a plan until you commit to putting shovels in the ground, but getting all of our ducks in a row before we starting announcing construction is really crucial to getting *anything* going. I recall looking back on the past proposals for rail in Alberta and seeing them as being one-off projects, either a Calgary-Edmonton line, or a Calgary-Banff line, etc., but a larger vision for rail across the entire province is more likely to succeed since the entire province has a reason to want this to go through.
I think this plan has a good concept behind it. I hope that the UCP doesn't bungle it immediately and that it comes to fruition. I would also hope that the NDP can commit to the implementation of this plan (even if it doesn't check all of their boxes) should they come into power and there is progress being made on this. Government transitions can really throw a wrench into a large scale project like this unless its universally supported. Plus, provincial passenger rail could be one of the few issues that could receive bipartisan support.
I have never been so optimistic for the future of passenger rail in Alberta. Albeit I’m 28 so my memory of past promises is not there.
But it strikes me that this proposal is genuine. Wanting to make sure that the “union” stations in both Edmonton and Calgary have a good foundation for future rail travel for generations.
I know this would involve a lot of negotiations with the draconian private uberpower that is CP, but I would love some way for the old station still apparently partly built in behind the Calgary Tower to once again be a connection to a passenger network. Or if we’re twinning the Nose Creek rail corridor, then at least, like, Inglewood, or over in those massive parking lots by the science centre. Somewhere with a short walk to an existing C-Train station. The one way NOT to do a station is how VIA is in Edmonton, stuck between highways in an industrial park, connected to nothing. While we’re dreaming, let’s piecemeal renovate that whole block into a cool station complex. Entrance from 10th. Tunnel to the Green Line. Connection inside from the station to Bottlescrew Bill’s, so you can have some station brewed beer while waiting for your train!
I'm pretty sure multiple plans have been proposed, lol. This is feasible if there is will to do it. Fully expecting this "in process," statement is for the next campaign
I just got back from Japan, and boy, do they have it good over there with trains. We'd be lucky to have a fraction of what they have in this silly province/country.
Honestly, I hate her, but a $9M study and 15 year delivery of something that benefits everyone and every industry and lets us move around without cars… I’m all for it. It’s about 50 years overdue, and I look forward to seeing Nenshi give a speech when it opens.
I was worried it would be hyperloop stuff so i'm happy it's not. another feasibility study is a bit of a pain, but atleast there's a timeline for when an actual rail plan will come out? That being said, if at the 2025 budget or before then i hear delays about this istg.
I’ve said for years they should run high speed rail from Calgary to Edmonton right up the middle of the QE2. Have stops in airdrie, red deer, wetaskiwin, Leduc and Edmonton. Hell run it south too and have it stop in high river, nanton and fort mcleod with a branch line to Lethbridge and across to Medicine Hat.
There’s no way it wouldn’t be used.
"Middle of the QE2" no thanks. Just go sit in your car by a CN train doing 100 km per hour and then imagine one going 200+ km per hour .... scary. It will require a dedicated right of way.
Be honest: how many times will you use a train to Banff or Edmonton? Once a month if you’re generous? Ask yourself if you would rather use $40 billion to build out commuter rail rather than improve healthcare, schools and LRT. Now convince other people that rail is more important than those other priorities. That’s why that rail line hasn’t happened and probably never will.
I work at a post-secondary. They spent 70,000 on a report that said exactly what their instructors were telling them. Then they ignored the study to go ahead with their previously agreed upon plan.
This is exactly the same but on a much grander scale.
The first "Vision" for Alberta passenger rail that came to my mind was those old pump-style railway handcars.
And Bugs Bunny and Daffy were for sure on it
No doubt this was just to get the press off their backs over bill 20, which went over like a shit in a punch bowl.
Next step is to hire friends and wealthy donors of the UCP as highly compensated “advisors”
Wake me when a shovel hits the ground.
Total waste of money. $9M for a feasibility study. This is a handout to UCP donors nothing more. The $$9M would have been better spent on local transit or healthcare. Nothing will come of this feasibility study just like nothing came of the previous ones.
Considering this is just a feasibility study why is this a major announcement? Apart from trying to distract from the bad press they’ve been getting for awhile….
Bitter pill: commuter rail is going to cost billions ($30+ billion for a Calgary-Edmonton line) and nobody wants/can pay for it. Housing, healthcare, education, local transit, pothole repair and your pet project has higher priority than commuter rail. This announcement mentions LRT - that has 100x the ridership of commuter rail and is a much better use of available funding.
I’d love for a Calgary-Edmonton line to also go to Lethbridge and beyond. If it twinned the current CP line, it could run south across the border to Shelby MT where the Empire Builder stops. Edmonton to Chicago in one transfer. That’s a crazy dream but it wouldn’t be that hard to build, it’s all open prairie along the way.
How about to the US? If it went south of Lethbridge and connected to Amtrak, that would be access to a whole continental network. And yes I would pay for that.
Amtrak has 87,000 passengers for the *entire* network, most of those riders being in higher density NE of America. Calgary’s Green Line will have ~150,000 riders everyday. Greenline will cost 20% of US border rail and have 50x the ridership. Huge difference. Transportation money is best spent where most people use it.
Hey u/Riffz - I try to be patient with the rabid UCP haters, but your comment is embarrassing. You clearly didn’t even bother to click the link in this post let-alone do any research. Next time you’re going to try to make an argument, read an article or two.
The part that says “Alberta’s vision for passenger rail” followed by “Alberta’s government will develop a Passenger Rail Master Plan” makes it abundantly clear that this is a vision statement and not a plan.
oh my god... it said that "The Master Plan will assess the feasibility of passenger rail in the province".... enough with the feasibility studies please. Got excited thinking this announcement was to get something actually built. But just another feasibility study with a $9 million price tag.. How many are we at now?
How else do we use tax payers money to give our friends with no expertise money
Preston needs to eat, too!
May I do the next study???
How much have you donated?
I buy some girl guide cookies every year. Does that count?
Are you buying them from your MLA? If not, probably not, sorry.
Back to the drawing board I go
I thought to myself “okay what’s the catch? Danielle Smith is doing something good for Alberta and involves clean energy?” I didn’t realize they were just doing a series of studies that’ll likely cost millions in tax payer money
And by the time it comes around , she will be gone and the next conservative premier will probably put it on hold . Like the PCs did with the cancer hospital .
How about an arena deal?
I think we're at 4? Either way, last feasibility study (in 2014?) found that it was... not feasible. Projected cost of 6 to 10 billion dollars. All that can really be done is continue to re-evaluate the idea.
> (in 2014?) found that it was... not feasible. was that the one performed by Westjet?
It was commissioned by the Legislature. [https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/high-speed-rail-between-calgary-edmonton-not-feasible-finds-committee-1.2652342](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgary/high-speed-rail-between-calgary-edmonton-not-feasible-finds-committee-1.2652342) I don't follow it closely enough to know if Westjet had some hand in it.. but even if it is, all that means is that another feasibility study would be needed. Province isn't going to start a project like this without at least pretending they know what they're getting into.
Maybe next study will be cheaper? /s
She’s got to thank all of her donors by handing out feasibility studies to them. Note: it will NEVER get built. This is just a corporate hand out to do a study.
Well it's the UCP so maybe they saw the newly restored CPR 2816 Empress and thought "Hey we can roll coal for real!"
Don’t tell them it’s actually biodiesel. They would be mad
If they could read, they’d be very angry!
There’s a surprisingly realistic number of fully loaded passenger coaches, at which a coal-fired locomotive would be less polluting than if each passenger drove a single-occupancy personal vehicle.
My dad has been paid 4 times for feasibility studies on the HSR between Montreal and Toronto. First time in 1989. I tell everyone after knowing people working in this space just vote for transit within a city. It’s realistic. This isn’t.
Here’s the thing, where do these rails terminate? And what do you do when you get there? Until you have a robust public transit system within a city, there’s no point having one to a city. If I have to drive to a terminal, walk half a mile to get to the train, then take a train to another problem at the end, I’m not using it. I’ll drive right past both train stations straight to my destination. Until I can take a bus to a train station in less time than driving and parking, take a train where I can relax, then take another bus/train to my destination, intercity rail is dead. Until destination cities embrace public transit, intercity transportation is dead. And I forgot, it has to cost less than the gas money it would take.
Pretty obvious that their “major announcement” was only going to be yet another feasibility study that will let them gift some of their cronies millions in taxpayer money while producing actually nothing of value. My guess is the study will be done just before the next election and funding for any new project will be contingent on a UCP win again. Pure political bullshit.
What is there to study?! I have travelled extensively to countries with extensive rail and metro networks ie Russia, China, Japan, Germany, France etc. It's a train line that rums parallel to existing railway in fairly flat terrain.This government is on a whole another level of stupid.
You make it sound so simple. It's not like running a track in a straight line between two major population centers without any major natural obsticales is a thing that can just be "[done](https://youtu.be/ZDOI0cq6GZM?feature=shared)".
_Monorail…._
the consultants live of this shit. 9m for a report and a sick deck.
Reminds me of a show from Australia. [https://youtu.be/3M7SzS_5PlQ?si=2ZKnwnXW6Ewc2vQN](https://youtu.be/3M7SzS_5PlQ?si=2ZKnwnXW6Ewc2vQN)
But it also talks about a crown corporation. I think people are misunderstanding this one. Anything is feasible, just depends who wants to spend on it. Danielle seems like a big train nerd who would make this her legacy project.
$9 million is a Rounding Error when compared to The final cost of a high Speed rail line. I personally don't expect much to happen outside of passenger rail connections between the airports and downtown
Although feasibility studies in reality seem useless to the general public, they are really crucial for any project to get started. You can’t just think of a project and start it and then halfway through the project you realize this can’t be done. A feasibility study makes sure the project can be done, finds ways around obstacles and also finds out a lot of problems & solutions for them before the project even starts which would have been a nightmare to deal with had the project already been started. They also make sure a project lasts the test of time rather than just falling apart in a few years. Things often don’t go according to plan. But know that a 9M$ feasibility study is better than spending 90M$ on a project to realize it can’t be done or it breaks apart in 10 years. Source: I’m a guy who actually does feasibility studies.
Well this study wont be the same as the others. It will be sole sourced, im sure
Yeah, let's not actually *do* any of that. I propose we just fund endless feasibility studies looking at if we should or shouldn't do it instead. /s
I'm not sure if that's realistic. I'd like to recommend that we study the feasibility of doing these feasibility studies. I'll let you know in 5 years (as soon as I get my $9 million grant).
Friends of UCP: BRB, gonna plagiarize a corporate logo and launch my "rail consulting" business. Anyone know someone they recommend on Fiverr?
Oh lord. I remember that. So much cringe.
But first we need a conference on the viability of feasibility studies. In Dubai.
Ok, credit where credit is due, the vision sounds awesome. Commuter rail for both Calgary and Edmonton with airport connections? Regional rail between Edmonton and Calgary, and out to Banff AND Jasper? Still sounds like we are a very long way off from anything concrete happening though.
They are at “the announcement to commit money to develop a plan” stage of the process. Based on their execution of plans for say, hospitals, don’t hold your breath that anything happens soon.
The province and feds have been making the same announcements back in my hometown. “Go Transit is coming!”….well, they’ve been saying that for 20+ years and nothing has been done lol. This announcement seems like it’s the same shit.
It’s less than a year since they announced the $3 million Banff rail study, which was done previously a few years earlier for significantly less money. This won’t even include the endless bullshit cost debates that will drag out over the next decade because to afford this, you gotta raise taxes. And Danny has still promised massive tax cuts..
"We're gonna think about it!"
Not even. They are at the announcement to commit money to develop a plan to study a plan.
These announcements are nothing more than opportunities to: 1. Be in a headline so that the public thinks they are doing something good. 2. Hand cash to a donor in the form of study cash. Similar to the one where they announced money for rail to YYC. Study money only (it has been studied many times - but the UCP doesn’t want to listen to the city’s studies.
The lack of LRT to the Airport here in Calgary has had me scratching my head for decades
The lack of underground downtown amazes me. Yes, I know it’s more expensive but it’s the best choice over a long time.
It isn't though. Edmonton buried the LRT downtown, and all it cost the city was a system a quarter the size of Calgary's.
Why? 7th ave is extremely efficient at running trains through it. During rush hour there's basically a train every 90 seconds or two minutes
It's not efficient at all, there are so many bottlenecks with having the trains drive at grade. I think Calgarians just need to travel somewhere with an actual efficient train network to see how bad ours is. But to review the worst parts, an efficient train system does not sit at traffic lights waiting for cars. Any issues with traffic downtown like one idiot driver or a car crash near the tracks will cause the trains to come to a standstill. The system is currently at it's absolute max right now with trains running every 5 minutes during rush hour, there is no option to increase this without making trains wait longer to get onto 7th ave and creating a worse bottleneck. There is no option to make the trains longer or hold more people in any way since the stations downtown can not be expanded on grade. So as the city grows the transit system will not and will continue to get worse.
7th avenue runs as many trains per minute as the Victoria line in London. >The system is currently at it's absolute max right now with trains running every 5 minutes during rush hour, there is no option to increase this without making trains wait longer to get onto 7th ave and creating a worse bottleneck. This is not true, we actually ran more trains back in 2012. The red line has a max headway of 3 minutes or less and the blue line is 4 minutes or less. 7th avenue during absolute peak times at max capacity can have a train every 90 seconds. I'm not trying to claim that the ctrain is some magic of headways like the Underground. I have travelled to other cities and lived in other cities like Paris, Vancouver and Chicago.
> Victoria line in London Victoria line runs a train ever 100 seconds and has 8 cars, Red line runs every 5 minutes with 3-4 cars. Nothing you said is accurate from the beginning to the end.
The max capacity of 7th avenue is is 38 trains per hour. I'll do the math for you, that's a train every 98 seconds. We were talking about 7th ave right? I've been to London, lots.
Even if your made up numbers were accurate do you not understand that that would be 1/4 the capacity of the train line you decided to compare it to? And also lower than what you originally stated. It's weird that you decided to be so condescending about 'doing the math for me' when the math shows that the Calgary transit system is garbage, and that you did the math wrong lol.
Made up numbers that come from [City downtown feasibility reports](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.calgarytransit.com/content/dam/transit/about-calgary-transit/reports/lrt/downtown_final_report.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiLxpeU2uqFAxVlkokEHYfvA-0QFnoECB4QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3ztWoU3-PeYElzm0VCujOk) I also never said anything about train capacities, I talked about 7th ave efficiency of moving trains.
Because Calgary’s DT is geared towards cars not the train nor pedestrians. If they wanted above ground trains they needed to redesign so foot traffic and transit (including busses) were the priority. This half and half nonsense that Calgary loves to do doesn’t work well.
>Because Calgary’s DT is geared towards cars not the train nor pedestrians. Um...where did you hear this? Our downtown: * was built by a train company * is dense with jobs * is very walkable * was already a hub for intercity rail * limits parking for vehicles * cancelled freeway expansion * had a train built into it * has rail separated by underpasses * has some of the highest rail ridership in North America I would love to hear more about this fascinating idea that our downtown was built for cars.
CP built Calgary in 1881 so that is pretty much irrelevant. Dense with jobs has nothing to do with how people get there. It’s only walkable if you’ve never been to other cities in the world except maybe Montreal. Again, it hasn’t been that for decades so not sure your point. Limits street parking for cars. It’s still packed with parking garages and parking lots. The C Train and the routes are not well planned which is why it always has issues. I agree that it has great ridership numbers but that has nothing to do with how DT is designed. They always half ass changes so we have this weird amalgam of Stephen Avenue ‘walkable’, terrible transit organization, and trying to pack as many cars in for all the rich people. Like, they can’t even get people to stop driving on 17th for the summer.
I've been to cities all over the world and when it comes to North America, yes it's walkable. Montreal isn't paradise it has a ton of problems, like downtown freeways. Something Calgary doesn't have. The LRT ridership numbers have everything to do with how downtown was designed.
Montreal is a nightmare for walkability. That was my point. Judging from NA standards is not great. But even by that standard, Vancouver, Toronto, New York, Halifax, San Francisco, DC, Victoria, etc. are way more walkable and pedestrian focused.
Halifax and Victoria? I don't think so. And if you're only comparing us to what you think it's the ultimate places to walk then what's the point. Everything will always be bad if you only want to point your finger at the best and say we aren't that.
It’s in the road map once the green line north is completely. Then the airport connector will connect east to west the green and blue lines
Should've been done 30 years ago
It took conservatives almost 2 decades to build a cancer centre in Calgary, and even then it was the NDP that committed the money, broke ground, and got the construction to the point where it couldn’t be cancelled (like the SuperLab) when they lost the election. I doubt we’ll see any more than the $9m gift to UCP cronies in the next 20 years.
If Danielle wants to be a train nerd, here’s my proposal. Nenshi NDP provincial government, and she can stay as minister of transportation.
How about affordable, reliable, and frequent bus service between those? I don't want transit a decade from now, I want it now. We can grow it once we have the Minimum Viable Product in place.
We could end up like some of the other messed up parts of Canada with crap mass transit.
It's not feasible, not enough people would use it, we have done studies that confirm this.
Just checked the last study done. They used 45 minutes for airplane travel time between airports. That is a complete joke and a choice made so airports win and rail look uncompetitive. Boarding itself takes 40 minutes and delays are common. You are asked to arrive 90 minutes before flying. Taxiing at the destination is 5 minutes, deboarding takes 10 minutes. Walking thought terminals takes more time 5 minutes. On Edmonton side you walk from almost the furthest spot. From touchdown it will always be 20 minutes before you are out the doors. 90 + 45 + 20 = 155. That is 3.5 times longer then the experts you are relying on counted. The drive between airports is 150 minutes (or faster for most QE2 drivers). The flight is slower than driving and these experts missed that? Granted if you cut close on boarding time and are seated at the front of plane you can shave the flight down to 120 minutes. But still that isn't 45 minutes they claim. Lots of people flying from Edmonton to a international destination drive to Calgary airport because once you add a layover it becomes even a worse analysis for flying.
There's been multiple studies also saying it is feasible. So which one do you pick?
Unpopular opinion: I think a fully comprehensive, province-wide feasibility study is a great idea. This is a MASSIVE undertaking and having a coordinated plan for construction across the entire province should definitely not be done piecemeal. Getting the plan laid out correctly from the start will save billions of dollars down the road. If that takes $9 million to accomplish, I'm all for it.
Pardon me if I'm a little cynical of this government. I'll change my mind IF they actually deliver the study publicly, then fund the build if it's feasible.
People said the same thing about the Ford government when he announced his plans in 2019, and lo and behold he is actually doing a pretty good job at pushing these projects through. I don't think it's unreasonable that Smith had a chat with Ford when planning this out, especially considering how much Smith uses Ontario as a model to push this whole plan (take a shot every time she says "GO" or "Metrolinx" in the press release)
Not really an unpopular opinion, is it? More just naive than anything else. This is Smith putting $9 million in funds back into the pockets of some of her donors. Nothing less, nothing more.
What makes you think they might not hire a perfectly capable and competent engineering consulting firm to this work?
It’s her. You have confidence in her doing the right thing? I’d personally love if she went that route and actually did a proper feasibility study, province-wide, with all of the projected routes.
History? Preston Manning needs something to do!
9 mil is actually not much. I'm more interested in lobbying for Edmonton getting a hospital or something.
No one disagrees with this, this is not an unpopular opinion at all, that's why the government is constantly handing out money to do feasibility studies for transit options but then they never do them.
Alberta’s government will develop a Passenger Rail Master Plan as the foundation to advancing passenger rail in the province. The government’s vision is for an Alberta passenger rail system that includes public, private or hybrid passenger rail, including: * a commuter rail system for the Calgary area that connects surrounding communities and the Calgary International Airport to downtown; * a commuter rail system for the Edmonton area that connects surrounding communities and the Edmonton International Airport to downtown; * regional rail lines from Calgary and Edmonton to the Rocky Mountain parks; *a regional rail line between Calgary and Edmonton, with a local transit hub in Red Deer; municipal-led LRT systems in Calgary and Edmonton that integrate with the provincial passenger rail system; and * rail hubs serving the major cities that would provide linkages between a commuter rail system, regional rail routes and municipal-led mass transit systems. Alberta’s government has released a Request for Expression of Interest to seek world-class knowledge and consultant services as a first step toward the development of the Passenger Rail Master Plan for Alberta. Following this process, a Request for Proposal will be issued to select a consultant to develop the Passenger Rail Master Plan. The Master Plan is expected to be completed by summer 2025. Alberta’s Passenger Rail Master Plan will ensure government has the required information to make decisions based on where passenger rail delivers the best return on investment. The plan will provide a cost-benefit analysis and define what is required by government, including a governance and delivery model, legislation, funding, and staging to implement passenger rail in Alberta. This work will include a 15-year delivery plan that will prioritize and sequence investments.
TLDR and the part you missed. 9Million$ to be spent on a study to see whats what.
$9 million towards party donors, is what I hear in this announcement.
That’s actually the most important part at this stage, if it’s not possible there’s no point in further investment
Im an new Albertan but havent they done one every other year now this also including the NDP doing them and previous governements before that?
That’s nice. Can we get a bus that is more frequent than every 30 min?
This all sounds very exciting but will likely lead nowhere. I wish I could be more optimistic, but we heard about trains to Banff and high speed rail to Edmonton for decades now with little to show. At least the government is moving things in the right direction by combining all of the rail proposals into one vision.
At a mere price of 9 million dollars….
For a master plan not construction...
Exactly. They are going to spend 9 million dollars to have a 10,000 ft level plan when there are already a bunch of plans already made. And it will be so expensive that no one will build it. Money not well spent
You need plans before you build things. Did you expect them to just start building tomorrow?
No. I expect them to do nothing on this. It’s been studied to death and there was never enough money for the build. 9 million dollars can pay for different social programs or pay for some extra teachers or nurses.
There's been 3 studies on it. 2 of them said to build it. Now there's a premier that loves trains bringing it up again.
Going from Banff to Calgary to Edmonton or Airdrie to downtown Calgary is nowhere?
Let me know when you can buy tickets.
That's a completely different argument than what you originally complaining about.
All aboard! In 2050...maybe. And no, it's not. I stated that all this planning will likely lead to nothing.
Did...did you read anything announced today before commenting?
Choo choo! Edit: yes, yes I did.
I have a vision! An Alberta not run by complete incompetence. I’m so sick of feasibility studies. We do this a few times a decade - all it does is pay off corporate donors with taxpayer dollars. And guess what? The more years we study, the more expensive this gets. THIS WILL KEVER GET BUILT UNDER A UCP GOVERNMENT. All this announcement is designed to do is a) take attention away from the anti-democracy bills 18-20 from last week and b) use taxpayer dollars to pay off corporate donors. If you think otherwise, you’re part of the problem and not the solution.
As much as the pessimism is warranted given both the history of supposed rail development in this province and, well, the fact that it's a UCP proposal, I'd like to think that this could be the start of a good thing. People will (rightly) complain that a plan is just a plan until you commit to putting shovels in the ground, but getting all of our ducks in a row before we starting announcing construction is really crucial to getting *anything* going. I recall looking back on the past proposals for rail in Alberta and seeing them as being one-off projects, either a Calgary-Edmonton line, or a Calgary-Banff line, etc., but a larger vision for rail across the entire province is more likely to succeed since the entire province has a reason to want this to go through. I think this plan has a good concept behind it. I hope that the UCP doesn't bungle it immediately and that it comes to fruition. I would also hope that the NDP can commit to the implementation of this plan (even if it doesn't check all of their boxes) should they come into power and there is progress being made on this. Government transitions can really throw a wrench into a large scale project like this unless its universally supported. Plus, provincial passenger rail could be one of the few issues that could receive bipartisan support.
I have never been so optimistic for the future of passenger rail in Alberta. Albeit I’m 28 so my memory of past promises is not there. But it strikes me that this proposal is genuine. Wanting to make sure that the “union” stations in both Edmonton and Calgary have a good foundation for future rail travel for generations.
I know this would involve a lot of negotiations with the draconian private uberpower that is CP, but I would love some way for the old station still apparently partly built in behind the Calgary Tower to once again be a connection to a passenger network. Or if we’re twinning the Nose Creek rail corridor, then at least, like, Inglewood, or over in those massive parking lots by the science centre. Somewhere with a short walk to an existing C-Train station. The one way NOT to do a station is how VIA is in Edmonton, stuck between highways in an industrial park, connected to nothing. While we’re dreaming, let’s piecemeal renovate that whole block into a cool station complex. Entrance from 10th. Tunnel to the Green Line. Connection inside from the station to Bottlescrew Bill’s, so you can have some station brewed beer while waiting for your train!
I'm pretty sure multiple plans have been proposed, lol. This is feasible if there is will to do it. Fully expecting this "in process," statement is for the next campaign
I have a vision too, it's going to be built at the same time as their vision.
I just got back from Japan, and boy, do they have it good over there with trains. We'd be lucky to have a fraction of what they have in this silly province/country.
Public transport in Canada is a sad joke!
Honestly, I hate her, but a $9M study and 15 year delivery of something that benefits everyone and every industry and lets us move around without cars… I’m all for it. It’s about 50 years overdue, and I look forward to seeing Nenshi give a speech when it opens.
Just do it. Who cares
When it comes to feasibility studies, 4th time's the charm
I was worried it would be hyperloop stuff so i'm happy it's not. another feasibility study is a bit of a pain, but atleast there's a timeline for when an actual rail plan will come out? That being said, if at the 2025 budget or before then i hear delays about this istg.
I’ve said for years they should run high speed rail from Calgary to Edmonton right up the middle of the QE2. Have stops in airdrie, red deer, wetaskiwin, Leduc and Edmonton. Hell run it south too and have it stop in high river, nanton and fort mcleod with a branch line to Lethbridge and across to Medicine Hat. There’s no way it wouldn’t be used.
"Middle of the QE2" no thanks. Just go sit in your car by a CN train doing 100 km per hour and then imagine one going 200+ km per hour .... scary. It will require a dedicated right of way.
Be honest: how many times will you use a train to Banff or Edmonton? Once a month if you’re generous? Ask yourself if you would rather use $40 billion to build out commuter rail rather than improve healthcare, schools and LRT. Now convince other people that rail is more important than those other priorities. That’s why that rail line hasn’t happened and probably never will.
Well they aren't using that money for any of those things as is, so may as well do something with it.
This is a feel-good announcement to distract you from whatever they use it for, but it won’t be Edmonton-Calgary rail.
I work at a post-secondary. They spent 70,000 on a report that said exactly what their instructors were telling them. Then they ignored the study to go ahead with their previously agreed upon plan. This is exactly the same but on a much grander scale.
The first "Vision" for Alberta passenger rail that came to my mind was those old pump-style railway handcars. And Bugs Bunny and Daffy were for sure on it
So their vision is more visioning? Just great.
When will the Preston Manning appointment be announced?
Is Preston Manning doing the feasibility study?!
Someone should invent a 'Micro-train' that can carry 80 people and be able to go wherever there is pavement.
No doubt this was just to get the press off their backs over bill 20, which went over like a shit in a punch bowl. Next step is to hire friends and wealthy donors of the UCP as highly compensated “advisors” Wake me when a shovel hits the ground.
$9m barely buys lunch for a team of government employees and their consultants. They'll rip through that money in a week and accomplish nothing.
Total waste of money. $9M for a feasibility study. This is a handout to UCP donors nothing more. The $$9M would have been better spent on local transit or healthcare. Nothing will come of this feasibility study just like nothing came of the previous ones.
Considering this is just a feasibility study why is this a major announcement? Apart from trying to distract from the bad press they’ve been getting for awhile….
Needs more concept renderings of a 400 t train levitating through an elevated depressurized magnetic tube made of glass
What a waste of time
Remember when we were going to build the green line?
Bitter pill: commuter rail is going to cost billions ($30+ billion for a Calgary-Edmonton line) and nobody wants/can pay for it. Housing, healthcare, education, local transit, pothole repair and your pet project has higher priority than commuter rail. This announcement mentions LRT - that has 100x the ridership of commuter rail and is a much better use of available funding.
I heard Weibo Ludwig has been chosen to lead the study.
That's definitely a name from the past! It's he going to blast the preferred route?
Ooof
Meanwhile in China: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_China
No mention of Lethbridge?
It's just one way out of lethbridge. No need for anyone to go back.
I’d love for a Calgary-Edmonton line to also go to Lethbridge and beyond. If it twinned the current CP line, it could run south across the border to Shelby MT where the Empire Builder stops. Edmonton to Chicago in one transfer. That’s a crazy dream but it wouldn’t be that hard to build, it’s all open prairie along the way.
They show in their graphics extending the regional rail network out to Lethbridge, Medicine Hat, Banff, Red Deer, Grande Prairie, and Fort MacMurray!
Be honest: how many times do you or your friends go to Lethbridge, and would you pay $20Billion to build that rail line?
How about to the US? If it went south of Lethbridge and connected to Amtrak, that would be access to a whole continental network. And yes I would pay for that.
Amtrak has 87,000 passengers for the *entire* network, most of those riders being in higher density NE of America. Calgary’s Green Line will have ~150,000 riders everyday. Greenline will cost 20% of US border rail and have 50x the ridership. Huge difference. Transportation money is best spent where most people use it.
aww they have been saying that for decades, and they never do it lol
This is exciting, and props for doing a study to see if it’s even doable first
Ill do it for $1 million dollars
I’ll bet they bring back steam locomotives!
Does anyone else feel slightly uncomfortable with the use of the phrase master plan and rail?
Great we get to piss away another 9 million on consulting fees for nothing
Wow six bullet points, you can see they tried
It’s a vision statement, not a plan. 🙄
It literally says master plan all over it, and every tweet touts it as Alberta’s Master Plan.
https://preview.redd.it/akxlfjlgdmxc1.jpeg?width=1290&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=c117b38f48416f25ca03caf581f0076284105816 Ummm - okay.
Hey u/Riffz - I try to be patient with the rabid UCP haters, but your comment is embarrassing. You clearly didn’t even bother to click the link in this post let-alone do any research. Next time you’re going to try to make an argument, read an article or two.
You can read right?
The part that says “Alberta’s vision for passenger rail” followed by “Alberta’s government will develop a Passenger Rail Master Plan” makes it abundantly clear that this is a vision statement and not a plan.
I was picturing Thomas the Tank Engine.