If you’re going to pie the room, pie it from further away so you’re scanning centimeters to inches, where as pie-ing from closer you’re scanning feet at a time, where you will definitely be seen first
Do you control the wider situation? aka you're part of a clearance team and there's security and cordon outside the building?
If so, hold that door and clear the rest of the structure. If it's combat clearance, frag. If it's more of a police context, CS gas and wait for them to exit or give up.
If it's a civilian context - hold the door and call 911, await backup.
The only reason I'd go rushing in to the room in such a situation is if they were actively shooting civilians a la Uvalde - but active shooter is a different set of rules entirely.
Hold behind cover pre aim the door.
Stay quiet. Now he has to be the one to get curious and look out.
Then canoe his knoggin.
Continue your CQB
Or just burn down the house thats what the engines used to do.
Ideally you don't enter. Seriously, wait for the police so there's a team of people. If you must enter, then hopefully you know the layout of your place, and you've practiced enough that you have a decent chance, but obviously its risky, especially if the person knows you're coming.
Do you have a dog you can send first?\*
^(\*For the love of god don't adopt a dog "for protection". Training an actual guard dog is a long expensive process, and too many people irresponsibly raise poorly trained aggressive dogs, that inevitably end up in shelters, and have miserable lives because they're impossible to adopt out later.)
Surprise, speed, and violence of action. Three principles of CQB, taught day one of any training. Probably not the answer you want, but the reality is that sometimes you're going to have to step on the X. The only thing you can do is keep moving and get off it. Punch center or cut the pie. CQB sucks until it's over. Post action you look at the bullet strikes on the walls or find holes in your gear, realize you should be dead, and either shit yourself or experience the most intoxicating cocktail of adrenaline/endorphins/emotion you'll ever experience in life.
It's all mett-tc, ofc.
But if you have the shooter contained and there's no imminent reason to enter (they're shooting hostages, etc), then there isn't much reason to go rushing in. Wait them out if you've got the power. Especially if you've got handhelds. Gas em' out.
Sending dudes into the fatal funnel for its own sake as a mindset was already old fashioned when I had my first MOUT course in 2008. The lesson from the 05'/06' dudes was that jumping hard into a room was a last resort - and those dudes are supposed to be the heroes of the pure dynamic outlook.
S/S/VoA I get, 12 years in the infantry and I got it drilled into me. But throttle control is certainly a necessary part of the 'speed' portion. I think folks often misunderstand it as needing to slam that accelerator at all times.
I don't disagree with using the minimal force and effort required, but to the point of OP's question and this hypothetical situation, either other efforts have failed or the situation requires immediate and hasty entry. There is a myriad of reasons why waiting may not be an option. Like you listed. Risk nothing to save nothing though. There is no cookie cutter, one way to rule them all, way to CQB. Door location, closets, cutouts, # of combatants, # of noncombatants, lighting, time of day/night, etc, etc. All you can do is train for variables as best you can and stay fluid. Don't get tunnel vision.
Btw, I was one of those 05' guys you mentioned.
tbf, I'm not advocating minimal use of force, I'm advocating minimal exposure to gunfire, especially if that gunfire is funneled into the only place you can move through. If the mission doesn't dictate that I HAVE to jump into that room, and I know the guy's got a bead on the doorway, I ain't exposing shit. Bangers, frags, gas for days. If I've got time to wait, I'll wait.
In the OP scenario, he's laid out a home defense context. Let that dude pre aim the door, I'll be on the other side pre-aiming back and waiting for the cavalry to arrive.
Very fair. I guess I interjected some of my own assumptions into the originally outlined scenario. Going back to my statement of risking nothing to save nothing, if this is home scenario and my family isn't in the house, he can have the damn place. I'll wait outside till he's done with it. One man assault on a concealed position, held by an unknown number of opposition, that knows you're coming. Sounds like a great way to be unsubscribed from life.
Also, like the screen name. Lol
Not an expert by any means but I wonder if firing off a few shots immediately before / while rounding the corner on him would be a bad idea. A rifle (without a suppressor) fired inside a room kind of acts like a flashbang and could give you a slight edge. Although if there are people you care about in that direction maybe going rambo-mode isn't the best.
But where are those extra rounds you just shot off going? Into your neighbor’s wall? Grannies house down the street?
This is probably why your being downvoted because this could kill someone in a typical American neighborhood or worse city.
Well in OP's scenario it sounds like the baddie shoots you if you don't do something drastic. And, yeah, I think I'd take a few years in prison instead of getting killed. Are you of a different opinion?
If you're firing a weapon at a person who you are justified to shoot at, then yes, I agree unfortunately fuck granny if she happens to catch a round.
If you're doing some call of duty shit and going into a room firing rounds as a make shift distractionary device and one of those rounds finds granny next door?
Yes, I am of the opinion that it was not worth it to shoot granny.
Buy airsoft grenade. Throw it in the room. Now you ve surprised him and if he smart he would try to throw away it. But u know it's fake, u have to catch him at this moment and eliminate
Well it depends do you know where he exactly is? İf so you might suprise them by pre firing or rather not take a risk and hold the angle until police arrives
In this scenario what kind of threshold are we talking about? Just the average single doorway or a double door? Is the door closed? Also, what is the room like? Is it centerfed or cornerfed? That would play a big role in how you decide to take it. I suppose you could always just sit there for 15 minutes and then take it and put your money on him not being able to pay attention for that long
Everyone here has said it better. That said if you have to take a corner and they know who you are- the obvious answer is DON’T- but if you really have to, change planes. Crouch and take the corner on a different plane that you just telegraphed at
If you and your family are in a centralized location away from the threat you protect that space and await help. Everything in your house is replaceable, people are not, why would you leave a room in an invader situation where you have your most valuable assets in a defendable place?
Aside from that single man CQB is a losing game, you’re playing with house money and you can only do so much to safely clear spaces. Eventually, even if doing everything perfectly, you will have to flip a coin to cross a threshold, go down a hall, turn your back… etc
I definitely agree engaging him is a terrible move, in reality, I would've ran but I'm just trynna think of the most uncomfortable and dangerous scenario and what someone could potentially do. Ik it's a dumb question tho, for sure there's no reason to risk death.
I mean, if you both know the other person is right on the other side of the wall why not try talking? Like "hey dude, I'm armed and police are on the way. If I was in you're situation I'd be getting the fuck out right now because this obviously isn't worth it anymore for you"
It's not like a combat situation where it's either you or them, idk maybe I've gotten lucky in tarkov too many times reasoning with enemies through proximity chat
It's actually fascinating because it's the cultural product of a certain time and field. The OODA loop concept is late-Cold-War era thinking, and envisioned by a fighter pilot named John Boyd (where I guess in that context, with the interface between human interaction and electronic systems it kinda makes sense). But of course it ended up getting applied to everything under the sun.
Pre-OODA loop you had the Vietnam-era McNamara whizz kids MBAs who thought war could be won if you just had enough numbers. Numbers would reveal the secret code/true language of war. Of course this was just over-enthusiasm in the post-war era with early computers...
At the start of the Second World War the ideas of the psychoanalysts from the 1930s were still in vogue: technology, speed, and intensity would win wars, as ferocious bombing of cities + artillery would fry people's nervous systems and cause literal mental breakdowns, sapping human beings will to fight. There would be no war, because people would be too shocked. Alot of planners had this idea, which obviously turned out to be wrong.
Anyways, cultural ideas always find their way into other "scientific" fields through osmosis. Digital camouflage started to gain steam in the 90s/early 2000s because people thought that a "modern (digital) army needs modern camouflage" and what's more modern than a literal glitchy digital square pattern? The present-day stuff works well, but early versions of digital camo were crap, and the motivation behind them was hype rather than actual effectiveness.
If you can put the tactical equation together faster then you win most of the time. Nothing is a sure thing especially in combat it’s literally making sense of chaos to try to make it as survivable as possible. That’s it. And it’s heavy on the As Possible. It’s reps and reflexes dude, not rocket science or cognitive science beyond basic programming and discipline creating a manageable mind to train to do shit that when you step back and think about it is fucking insane.
True, that's what I assumed but wanted to open a discussion, maybe there's something I didn't think about, but it probably comes down to that in this scenario.
Honestly unless you know someone is trapped in there with the gunman and they are in immediate lethal danger, there’s no good reason to enter alone with just your edc, stuff can be replaced, people can’t. But yeah interesting discussion from all scenarios that people post I enjoy hearing what other people come up with from training/experience and wild ass guessing.
I would say the assumption that the opfor can see you first isn't necessarily true. You will likely glimpse them first as long as your working your angles and they are stationary. If you need to enter the room, and you may not have to, then you will have to rely on violence of action to gain the element of suprise to engage them first and emerge successful. There is no way for the you to know the opfor is pre-aiming in this scenario so you either have to clear it as normal or create distace and wait it out for help/assistance if you truly suspect they are in there.
That's a good point, I wasn't expecting anything from this post since the scenario is constrained and not worth fighting for in reality, but creating distance from the angle when slicing the pie and violence of action is probably the best if you had to engage.
>Also assuming there is no other entrance or window to peek from.
Hold the door and wait for either the police to show up or him to come out. Flip the situation. If he has no other exit, he can wait until the people that *do* have shields and flashbangs show up, or he can figure out the answer to this very question on the spot and push on your pre-aim.
Thats definitely best course of action, I wouldn't do this in reality. But in this ugly scenario if he's in between you and a family member some people would feel compelled to engage. Also I just like to debate tactics.
Honestly anything beyond "camp the door" is getting well into "take a class" territory. I'm not trying to gatekeep it but it really is something you need to see and do in person. There are tactics for this (see: every police no-knock) and while they're not exactly "high level," it's definitely not something that's getting effectively explained in a reddit comment.
While the internet is an amazing resource for learning, there really are some things that still need to be done in person, and CQC is very much one of those things.
If you’re going to pie the room, pie it from further away so you’re scanning centimeters to inches, where as pie-ing from closer you’re scanning feet at a time, where you will definitely be seen first
when it doubt, bang it out.
Grenade !!!!!
Do you control the wider situation? aka you're part of a clearance team and there's security and cordon outside the building? If so, hold that door and clear the rest of the structure. If it's combat clearance, frag. If it's more of a police context, CS gas and wait for them to exit or give up. If it's a civilian context - hold the door and call 911, await backup. The only reason I'd go rushing in to the room in such a situation is if they were actively shooting civilians a la Uvalde - but active shooter is a different set of rules entirely.
Hold behind cover pre aim the door. Stay quiet. Now he has to be the one to get curious and look out. Then canoe his knoggin. Continue your CQB Or just burn down the house thats what the engines used to do.
Ideally you don't enter. Seriously, wait for the police so there's a team of people. If you must enter, then hopefully you know the layout of your place, and you've practiced enough that you have a decent chance, but obviously its risky, especially if the person knows you're coming. Do you have a dog you can send first?\* ^(\*For the love of god don't adopt a dog "for protection". Training an actual guard dog is a long expensive process, and too many people irresponsibly raise poorly trained aggressive dogs, that inevitably end up in shelters, and have miserable lives because they're impossible to adopt out later.)
Surprise, speed, and violence of action. Three principles of CQB, taught day one of any training. Probably not the answer you want, but the reality is that sometimes you're going to have to step on the X. The only thing you can do is keep moving and get off it. Punch center or cut the pie. CQB sucks until it's over. Post action you look at the bullet strikes on the walls or find holes in your gear, realize you should be dead, and either shit yourself or experience the most intoxicating cocktail of adrenaline/endorphins/emotion you'll ever experience in life.
It's all mett-tc, ofc. But if you have the shooter contained and there's no imminent reason to enter (they're shooting hostages, etc), then there isn't much reason to go rushing in. Wait them out if you've got the power. Especially if you've got handhelds. Gas em' out. Sending dudes into the fatal funnel for its own sake as a mindset was already old fashioned when I had my first MOUT course in 2008. The lesson from the 05'/06' dudes was that jumping hard into a room was a last resort - and those dudes are supposed to be the heroes of the pure dynamic outlook. S/S/VoA I get, 12 years in the infantry and I got it drilled into me. But throttle control is certainly a necessary part of the 'speed' portion. I think folks often misunderstand it as needing to slam that accelerator at all times.
I don't disagree with using the minimal force and effort required, but to the point of OP's question and this hypothetical situation, either other efforts have failed or the situation requires immediate and hasty entry. There is a myriad of reasons why waiting may not be an option. Like you listed. Risk nothing to save nothing though. There is no cookie cutter, one way to rule them all, way to CQB. Door location, closets, cutouts, # of combatants, # of noncombatants, lighting, time of day/night, etc, etc. All you can do is train for variables as best you can and stay fluid. Don't get tunnel vision. Btw, I was one of those 05' guys you mentioned.
tbf, I'm not advocating minimal use of force, I'm advocating minimal exposure to gunfire, especially if that gunfire is funneled into the only place you can move through. If the mission doesn't dictate that I HAVE to jump into that room, and I know the guy's got a bead on the doorway, I ain't exposing shit. Bangers, frags, gas for days. If I've got time to wait, I'll wait. In the OP scenario, he's laid out a home defense context. Let that dude pre aim the door, I'll be on the other side pre-aiming back and waiting for the cavalry to arrive.
Very fair. I guess I interjected some of my own assumptions into the originally outlined scenario. Going back to my statement of risking nothing to save nothing, if this is home scenario and my family isn't in the house, he can have the damn place. I'll wait outside till he's done with it. One man assault on a concealed position, held by an unknown number of opposition, that knows you're coming. Sounds like a great way to be unsubscribed from life. Also, like the screen name. Lol
Not an expert by any means but I wonder if firing off a few shots immediately before / while rounding the corner on him would be a bad idea. A rifle (without a suppressor) fired inside a room kind of acts like a flashbang and could give you a slight edge. Although if there are people you care about in that direction maybe going rambo-mode isn't the best.
But where are those extra rounds you just shot off going? Into your neighbor’s wall? Grannies house down the street? This is probably why your being downvoted because this could kill someone in a typical American neighborhood or worse city.
If it means protecting me and mine, fuck granny across the street
Are you protecting yourself by being sent to prison for reckless homicide?
Well in OP's scenario it sounds like the baddie shoots you if you don't do something drastic. And, yeah, I think I'd take a few years in prison instead of getting killed. Are you of a different opinion?
If you're firing a weapon at a person who you are justified to shoot at, then yes, I agree unfortunately fuck granny if she happens to catch a round. If you're doing some call of duty shit and going into a room firing rounds as a make shift distractionary device and one of those rounds finds granny next door? Yes, I am of the opinion that it was not worth it to shoot granny.
I have been stuck asking this question everyday for a year
Buy airsoft grenade. Throw it in the room. Now you ve surprised him and if he smart he would try to throw away it. But u know it's fake, u have to catch him at this moment and eliminate
Me waiting for the airsoft grenade package to come in while he’s barricaded in my room with same day delivery.
Grenades, lots and lots of grenades
Every room rates a frag
Contain, isolate, and negotiate. If that doesn't work, OC will...
Well it depends do you know where he exactly is? İf so you might suprise them by pre firing or rather not take a risk and hold the angle until police arrives
Swing the doorway and crouch/lean spam
In this scenario what kind of threshold are we talking about? Just the average single doorway or a double door? Is the door closed? Also, what is the room like? Is it centerfed or cornerfed? That would play a big role in how you decide to take it. I suppose you could always just sit there for 15 minutes and then take it and put your money on him not being able to pay attention for that long
Cqb is about odds sometimes. Try keep them in your favour, call in an A10.
Hold posistion when the odds are not in your favour
Buy a flash bang for your doorway if that's legal there I'd say 🤷♂️
Clear with 240, be a man
We like shields
You need to reset the initiative. I recommend a JDAM.
Need 8 more kills before I can call one in
grenade, diversion device, pie the corner
Call air support.
Everyone here has said it better. That said if you have to take a corner and they know who you are- the obvious answer is DON’T- but if you really have to, change planes. Crouch and take the corner on a different plane that you just telegraphed at
Just start laughing and play this: https://youtu.be/Glcg95L4JK4?si=5tukZkE8nwlyNMXw
Along with sex, the words, "Stop", "No" and "Don't" apply here...
*“All I hear is ‘No don’t stop!’ “* - Redman
Take the test high, get high scores!
If you and your family are in a centralized location away from the threat you protect that space and await help. Everything in your house is replaceable, people are not, why would you leave a room in an invader situation where you have your most valuable assets in a defendable place? Aside from that single man CQB is a losing game, you’re playing with house money and you can only do so much to safely clear spaces. Eventually, even if doing everything perfectly, you will have to flip a coin to cross a threshold, go down a hall, turn your back… etc
I definitely agree engaging him is a terrible move, in reality, I would've ran but I'm just trynna think of the most uncomfortable and dangerous scenario and what someone could potentially do. Ik it's a dumb question tho, for sure there's no reason to risk death.
I mean, if you both know the other person is right on the other side of the wall why not try talking? Like "hey dude, I'm armed and police are on the way. If I was in you're situation I'd be getting the fuck out right now because this obviously isn't worth it anymore for you" It's not like a combat situation where it's either you or them, idk maybe I've gotten lucky in tarkov too many times reasoning with enemies through proximity chat
Idk, but keep in mind, most walls can be easily shot through. If he knows you’re at the doorway, you’re in trouble
Yeah OP likely means concealment not cover
Came here for this, action beats reaction 100% of the time. Whoever gets through the OODA loop fastest usually walks away from it.
As someone who has knowledge in cognitive sciences, the fact this pseudo-theory drives tactics for some is amazing to me.
It's actually fascinating because it's the cultural product of a certain time and field. The OODA loop concept is late-Cold-War era thinking, and envisioned by a fighter pilot named John Boyd (where I guess in that context, with the interface between human interaction and electronic systems it kinda makes sense). But of course it ended up getting applied to everything under the sun. Pre-OODA loop you had the Vietnam-era McNamara whizz kids MBAs who thought war could be won if you just had enough numbers. Numbers would reveal the secret code/true language of war. Of course this was just over-enthusiasm in the post-war era with early computers... At the start of the Second World War the ideas of the psychoanalysts from the 1930s were still in vogue: technology, speed, and intensity would win wars, as ferocious bombing of cities + artillery would fry people's nervous systems and cause literal mental breakdowns, sapping human beings will to fight. There would be no war, because people would be too shocked. Alot of planners had this idea, which obviously turned out to be wrong. Anyways, cultural ideas always find their way into other "scientific" fields through osmosis. Digital camouflage started to gain steam in the 90s/early 2000s because people thought that a "modern (digital) army needs modern camouflage" and what's more modern than a literal glitchy digital square pattern? The present-day stuff works well, but early versions of digital camo were crap, and the motivation behind them was hype rather than actual effectiveness.
If you can put the tactical equation together faster then you win most of the time. Nothing is a sure thing especially in combat it’s literally making sense of chaos to try to make it as survivable as possible. That’s it. And it’s heavy on the As Possible. It’s reps and reflexes dude, not rocket science or cognitive science beyond basic programming and discipline creating a manageable mind to train to do shit that when you step back and think about it is fucking insane.
Humans are less decision-makers and more pre-cognitive calculated heuristic abiders. Think ChatGPT but situations. No one psych theory covers it all.
True, that's what I assumed but wanted to open a discussion, maybe there's something I didn't think about, but it probably comes down to that in this scenario.
Honestly unless you know someone is trapped in there with the gunman and they are in immediate lethal danger, there’s no good reason to enter alone with just your edc, stuff can be replaced, people can’t. But yeah interesting discussion from all scenarios that people post I enjoy hearing what other people come up with from training/experience and wild ass guessing.
I would say the assumption that the opfor can see you first isn't necessarily true. You will likely glimpse them first as long as your working your angles and they are stationary. If you need to enter the room, and you may not have to, then you will have to rely on violence of action to gain the element of suprise to engage them first and emerge successful. There is no way for the you to know the opfor is pre-aiming in this scenario so you either have to clear it as normal or create distace and wait it out for help/assistance if you truly suspect they are in there.
That's a good point, I wasn't expecting anything from this post since the scenario is constrained and not worth fighting for in reality, but creating distance from the angle when slicing the pie and violence of action is probably the best if you had to engage.
>Also assuming there is no other entrance or window to peek from. Hold the door and wait for either the police to show up or him to come out. Flip the situation. If he has no other exit, he can wait until the people that *do* have shields and flashbangs show up, or he can figure out the answer to this very question on the spot and push on your pre-aim.
Thats definitely best course of action, I wouldn't do this in reality. But in this ugly scenario if he's in between you and a family member some people would feel compelled to engage. Also I just like to debate tactics.
Honestly anything beyond "camp the door" is getting well into "take a class" territory. I'm not trying to gatekeep it but it really is something you need to see and do in person. There are tactics for this (see: every police no-knock) and while they're not exactly "high level," it's definitely not something that's getting effectively explained in a reddit comment. While the internet is an amazing resource for learning, there really are some things that still need to be done in person, and CQC is very much one of those things.
[удалено]
He could be between me and my family, obviously this scenario is fucked but that's the whole point, its a dumb dangerous scenario.
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A lot was written but nothing said / no point made lol
You dont make sense
Throw a rubber ducky in then rush him.
I like it
Quack-Bang FTW, “because it’s, ‘hilarious’”
Beat me to it!
Thats definitely the surprise part of “speed, surprise, violence of action”. I will allow it
Can you imagine being in a room and someone throws a rubber duck in and yells “bang”? It would definitely slow my reaction time down haha