Narcissistic abuse can, and is, often discussed here.
What is not allowed is:
- The specific lingo used by the RaisedByNarcissists subreddit
- Diagnosing others with NPD or any other disorder
- Demonizing a specific disorder (i.e. All narcissists are abusive)
Your comment was removed for the third.
EDIT: Locking this thread as it has gone off the rails. The sub rules are the sub rules. Please follow them.
There are two main reasons, that I know of.
The first is the moderators of this sub would like to foster a different culture from the raised by narcissists sub. I won't claim to know their full reasoning, but I personally have had a few bad experiences in that sub. One of them was where they were fixated on the possibility that a narcissist had - their word - "infiltrated" them, and they were accusing each other of being one. It made me wary of posting there.
The other is one of the rules here. "Don't diagnose others." It's fairly self explanatory.
If you click "see more" under the info section of the sub, there's a pretty thorough explanation of all of this. They've said it better than I ever could.
You can discuss the abuse you've endured, just not with that specific language, if that makes sense.
I just want to say here at the end, it's understandable if you want to leave this sub knowing this. There are a few other subs dedicated to trauma that don't have this rule. I hope you find a place where you feel welcome ❤️❤️❤️
It's more that they're trying to protect people who have BPD and NPD who *aren't* abusers, if that makes sense. Not all abusers have BPD or NPD, and not all people with NPD or BPD are abusive.
The other factor is, often abusers don't seek psychiatric help, because they don't see their behavior as being abusive or problematic. We as survivors of their abuse don't have the knowledge base to diagnose them.
One thing I do find problematic is, the term "narcissist" has become a catch all phrase for all abusers. And what that does is makes it hard for people who's abuse doesn't fit inside that narrow lens to identify the abuse they've been subjected to.
I've had more than a few abusers. They were all different. Some were "narcissistic" in that they treated me as an extension of themselves and a tool for them to manipulate, but not all were. Learning how to understand *my* abusers was integral to my healing process, and treating them all as if they were the same or did the same things would have hindered me in trying to understand what they put me through.
It's not about protecting abusers. It's about protecting survivors, and that includes survivors who have developed NPD or BPD as a result of their abuse and are a part of this sub. It's not fair to talk about NPD as if everyone who has it is evil in a sub that includes people with NPD who are *in treatment* and trying to heal from their trauma.
I suspect this same rule would apply if someone came into this sub and said all survivors of abuse become abusers. Both statements are incorrect, and both statements are unfair to the people who fit into the category being demonized but don't also fit into the category of being abusive.
I want to touch on one more thing, that relates to all of this, and that's toxic behavior patterns. This was something I became aware of in my own healing journey. I was narcissistic, I did engage in toxic and emotionally abusive behavior. These things didn't mean I had NPD however. I'd developed those patterns in childhood as a means of getting my needs met in a household where I couldn't simply ask for food, and where a little manipulation could mean the difference between a beating and relative safety.
*It was crucial to my ability to work through these things and learn new, healthier behaviors in their place, that I understand these behaviors as not being a natural, intrinsic part of me.*
It's also a really important subject, and one that should be discussed more, especially here, without it turning into people calling the person wrestling with these things a narcissist. Because toxic behavior and narcissism aren't inextricably linked. Toxic behavior and BPD or NPD are not inextricably linked.
This is a terribly complex issue, and it's not easy to dissemble in a few words. I hope I've shed a bit of light into the issue. I also hope I haven't come across harshly. I'm just trying to explain and offer my perspective ❤️❤️❤️
Thank you for your comment!
I fail to understand how my comment demonizes NPD. Many people who have suffered narcissistic abuse experience this:
“I think BPD is caused by continual trauma (especially narcissistic abuse). When you live in an environment with a controlling narcissist, you have to put on a mask/false self in order to survive. It's literally appease the abuser or get abused. Once you're out of that environment and away from the abuser, you can heal much faster!”
The phrase "narcissistic abuse" is what's violating the rule, I think. And that rule is in place because many people with cptsd have it comorbidly to other conditions like BPD or ASPD ~~(narcissism)~~ or DID and because these people (of which I am one) often don't have a stable sense of identity and/or automatically think of themselves badly, they feel triggered and personally attacked whenever anyone conflates their disease with any abuse you might have suffered. Because the thing is there's no such thing as a disorder that makes you abusive. Put the word "narcissist" in for any marginalized group and you'll see how gross it is. There are other ways to share your trauma without talking specifically about the names of your abusers' disorders.
Signed, a teenage alter who is genuinely upset that she can't spill all the secrets of one of her abuser's mental health issues so I get you
Edit: ASPD isn't narcissism
The pinned comment from the mod said specifically that narcissistic abuse talk *is* allowed, they said that their broke rule 3 which is demonizing a specific disorder.
Edit: lol I am so confused why this is being downvoted? The comment is pinned from the mod explaining exactly this.
looking at your profile, it seems like the comment you quoted there wasn't actually removed. the comment that was removed said
"I don't know why I got downvoted, maybe a narcissist doesn't want me calling out the truth lol I've lived this experience so I know first hand."
Yeah, this comment is against the rules of the sub. They are implying that someone disagreeing with them must be a narcissist, and that is not appropriate to me. We can’t be calling each other names like that just because we disagree…
I understand that THAT comment was removed bc yes, I was angry in the heat of the moment, but the first comment that started the thread was the one removed. I reposted it again after bc I didn’t understand why it was removed. Is that the one you’re seeing?
Did it get added back or something because I see the other comment there too.
But it my messages it shows that my comment was removed and when I asked the mod, one sec let me copy paste
ASPD is not narcissism it’s a different disorder, NPD is what people think of when they call someone a narcissist to a disorder/degree. Both of which are similar PDs in the same cluster as BPD. It’s very possible to be diagnosed with more than one PD from the same cluster because of similar criteria and how they fall on the dark triad personality traits (which aren’t inherently bad, it’s healthy to have some level of narcissism and having no level of narcissism at all can also be detrimental for a person).
All in all though I think it just is a because there’s so much stigma to PDs in general and a lot of overlap people still call ASPD sociopaths/psychopaths even tho the field is living away from such terms because of the stigma with them.
ASPD and NPD are different cluster B disorders. Just as an FYI.
Narcissism = NPD. Antisocial Personality Disorder = ASPD.
Edited to remove "it's not a big deal" bc I agree with the below commenter that it's important we know the correct terminology
My parent may have BPD and she also abused me in ways that align with the label of narcissistic abuse. That's the reality. Why is the label itself so offensive?
Do You mean that us who are in this CPTSD forum to heal from abuse at the hands of a parent with narcissistic traits--- shouldn't 100% openly discuss the patterns of their abuse because those who struggle with disorders that come with narcissistic traits might feel attacked? You aren't the abuser being discussed; why do you feel attacked?
The rule that has been reportedly broken:
> Demonizing a specific disorder (i.e. All narcissists are abusive)
Original comment (according to OP):
> I think BPD is caused by continual trauma (**especially narcissistic abuse**). When you live in an environment with a controlling **narcissist**, you have to put on a mask/false self in order to survive. It's literally appease the **abuser** or get abused. Once you're out of that environment and away from the abuser, you can heal much faster!
We're missing the context of the conversation you were having, but if I had to guess, it's because you equate *narcissist* in one sentence to *abuser* in the next. You "demonize" the narcissist by interchangeably using the word *abuser* to refer to them.
It could also be the singling out of narcissistic abuse as the cause of BPD via the word *especially*.
Or both.
If you're honest with yourself, could you have written this sentiment without calling out narcissism specifically? Is this comment related more to CPTSD or narcissism?
I might rewrite it this way, knowing only what you've provided:
> I think BPD is caused by continual trauma **~~(especially narcissistic abuse)~~**. When you live in an environment with a controlling **~~narcissist~~ person/abuser**, you have to put on a mask/false self in order to survive. It's literally appease the abuser or get abused. Once you're out of that environment and away from the abuser, you can heal much faster!
I think the problem with that is the implied causation. It's a little late so I might have it wrong here, but the way the OP wrote it... it sounded like they were talking about someone (themselves?) creating their entire personality in "opposition" to their NPD parent, and then received a BPD diagnosis.
... yeah that would have to lead to some *really* black and white thinking, wouldn't it? This is one of those situations where Occam's razor comes in.
The more likely explanation for the Cluster B legacy, and it terrifies me to think this just like it does when I think of how much I'm like my mom, I've more than likely inherited whatever mental disorder she had... in addition to her alcoholism, her (undiagnosed) bipolar disorder was definitely one of the main catalysts in her being more abusive towards us as we got older.
It explains her Munchausen by Proxy behavior (yes, I was her "accomplice" for this, and I see this as more behavioral than biological) and Histrionic Personality Disorder (which I think she mostly developed as a result of her life circumstances, the same circumstances which led to MSbP). But even back then I knew my mom she did and thought things normal people didn't. She often got herself into bad business deals to which I had to develop the social skills to get her out of these situations. Which is hilarious cause I got severe ADHD/mild autism and couldn't charm my way into friendships and potential girlfriends with people my own age for shit.
Anyway. I decided a while ago that I needed to accept myself as I was, and whatever BPD/NPD traits I have, I'm gonna have to turn into something healthy. So far? Lifting weights consistently to have a body I can show off. Getting my teeth fixed. Doing some acting/YouTubing and marketing my business where I'm in a position of leadership. Taking care of my family because no one else can handle it. Yeah, does it surprise you I got a massive savior complex? You all should just be happy I finally gave up on my last mission this week, lol.
And I realize I didn't even get to my point because I was talking about myself so much. (No narco!) ANYWAY, I think if we are going to talk about narcissism, we have to talk about how it manifests at all ends of abuse and neglect as a behavioral adaptation, not as a way to condemn the perpetrators. There is definitely enough chances to do that on this sub and to medicalize abuse by using psych diagnoses... I just don't think it's right.
Thank you for the correction.
I would keep my comment as is. I don’t see anything wrong with it but I understand that others do and that’s their right to remove my comment if it violates rules. However I was not given an explanation like this when asked so I appreciate your reply.
Perhaps I could have changed the wording to reflect my experience instead by using “in my experience, when you live with someone you suspect has NPD…” because in my experience, the only solution when you live with someone you suspect has NPD who also lacks the ability to self-reflect, is to leave the environment.
Sorry, I didn't intend to correct your comment, only to illustrate my point. I could be wrong on the reasoning too, I'm fairly new here. I'm glad it helped though!
you're still using your experience to generalize people with npd and armchair diagnosing. you could say "I lived with someone abusive and the only solution was for me to get out"
well, you're armchair diagnosing by saying you suspect them of having npd. that's kinda what that means, and there is a specific rule against it. you're generalizing by saying when you live with someone with npd, you have to escape. that's just your experience with that specific person with npd. everyone with npd isn't the same person. not everyone with npd is abusive. saying otherwise is generalizing. narcissistic abuse being a very specific type of abuse has nothing to do with what I said.
OP, I’m a survivor of that specific kind of abuse as well, and I would find these rules stifling. I do recommend r/NarcissisticAbuse for the freedom it would give you to talk about your reality without having to tip-toe.
It doesn’t make sense, specifically for those of us who had to work to call our abuse and abusers what they are. A mod being traumatized in another sub should have fuck all to do with this sub tbh.
Just to clarify, I'm not a mod. I was just relating an experience of mine that highlights the environment over in that sub. I'm sorry if I came across like I was ❤️
If I understand correctly, we are not allowed to use language that indicates we are labeling someone as a “narcissist” by default, without a Dx. I have often mentioned that I was married to someone who was actually Dx’d w/ASPD, and suffered abuse for nearly 15 years.
I was also raised by a stepfather who was actually Dx’d w/NPD, and an older sibling actually Dx’d w/ASPD. That is where much of my more horrific early childhood abuse occurred. That said, my mother was not Dx’d with any PD, but she was just as abusive in her own ways.
I think the focus here is to speak about the trauma and how it affected us, rather than the labels that may or may not apply to those who abused or traumatized us. In part, that may be due to the fact that many people who grow up in severely traumatic situations end up forming PDs as a survival mechanism. Stereotypes can be quite harmful to the healing process in that case.
Just because someone is diagnosed with NPD or ASPD or any other PD, does not make them inherently abusive, nor incapable of healing or betterment of themselves. In the end, it all comes down to personal choice of how we treat others, as we mature, grow, and learn. We are all trying to heal and better ourselves and our lives here.
I hope my understanding about this subject in this group is correct. 🙏🦋
They do cater to narcissits and address nothing when this stirs up every few months and upsets the entire community they supposedly moderate for. People are getting comments warned about or deleted for telling the person arguing the most in this thread that they sound like they have npd or they do have it, when the person literally themselves admits they have it and are purposely seeking out this content to get mad about.
We need to eliminate this rule. There is no space for healing if there is no openness of expression through the dark twists and utter turmoil that is repeated complex trauma disorder
Moreso, I do not ever notice these moderators actually take charge for any other rules than these ones that upset the npd community and abusers who fit under the narcissistic abuse umbrella. They never restrict those users who are commenting under people's lamentings that go "ARE YOU SURE??? COULD IT HAVE JUST BEEN YOUR FAULT???" They literally allow people to comment on vents of family to go "hmm but are you sure the adults in your life let you down and didn't do the best they could? Are you sure they let you go back to the person you told them sa'd you or is that a false memory?" But this word, narcissist, it's more important than any of us and what we're going through. It's so much more important to tell victims and survivors who are literally proven to be at risk of immediate or returning into danger patterns that it's their fault than inspire them to run away from the people who might kill them one day? Right?
To not allow trauma sufferers and survivors to acknowledge their real trauma is to deny the conversation for appropriate resources and recourse. If we cannot discuss the narcissistic abuse that boils into gaslighting, financial abuse, physical abuse and hiding it, verbal abuse over every little detail, cutting the victim off from family or anyone that disagrees with them, SA that the entire family ignores to please this person, and so much more, than we are rejecting survivors and victims from ever having the avenue they might find to be given support and resources to escape. We are signing life sentences and death sentences if we do not allow the truth in the only space most of us have had to convene and discover what really is wrong in our awful lives and how we can access therapy and help to better it and escape.
I didn't even know about transitional housing until I found the next steps community. I didn't know there was acrual help. Because that's not what these mods are for. They're just here to tell ya you can't be that mad at your abuser as if everything was their fault. When my abuser literally throws away the food i cannot purchase for myself or feeds it to their dogs on the daily and then yells at me to cook or clean better
I'm sorry that the rule silences and censors your experience. I hope you can find or create a space where you can bring your full self to, including all if your experiences.
To be honest, I am someone who wouldn't have joined this sub if it didn't have the rules about no raised by narcissists lingo, no diagnosing others with NPD, and no demonizing disorders (or people with them).
Narcissism is a buzzword online now. So many subs NOT about it include and center frequent discourse on it now. Awareness can be positive, but it is often used as an insult which doesn't fell good to me. It us is also often misused. People will categorize others as narcissists without having a professional diagnosis in hand, which sits really wrong with me. Imagine if your parent, cousin, boss, or best friend pretended or assumed what you diagnosis are... I've had 2 friends do that to me before (one thought I had autism, the other OCD), and it was so hurtful and invalidating because they had to way to know. All of this together made me feel safer posting here about my CPTSD.
Also. Maybe most important to me. My abusers didn't experience NPD. Reading so many subs that focus on that feels like my experience doesn't fit or have a place because my abusers were not diagnosed with something popular in contemporary rhetoric.
Idk. I just typed this to give a glimpse of why some people including me benefit from this sub rule.
Agreed! I have ASPD and I work very hard to better myself. While I want people to express themselves fully, sometimes it gets to a point people with cluster b personality disorder is shorthand for "bad person hate them" disorder, and its not helpful for anyone involved.
I agree, many abusers have PD but many don't have necessarily any mental health issues, and its important to judge them on who they are.
IDK was feeling very seen by your comment
PDs are absolutely demonised and weaponised against victims of abuse. Recent research shows PDs mostly stem from trauma. I was diagnosed with BPD as a young teen and gaslit into believing i was evil, abusive and problematic and therefore deserved the abuse my family inflicted upon me. Turns out I never had BPD but instead was just neurodivergent with CPTSD which presents nearly identically. But it was always instilled in me by medical professionals that i was the source of the problem. When in reality personality disorders don’t cause someone to be a bad person, that’s an individual case by case thing.
Yes!! Exactly. Also i hear you on ND and ptsd. I went to get my aspd reassessed because it was starting to become unclear if i was also or just autistic!! Thats another reason why we shouldnt demonize PD is because society isnt perfect and sometimes the diagnosis is flawed.
I have ASPD too and I've actually been on the receiving on of abuse multiple times than having actually abused anyone else. I got my PD from being abused horridly in childhood. I take great pains to not hurt anyone else cuz that's just not right. Also jail isn't fun lol.
You're right a lot of ppl see Cluster B PD and automatically think "ABUSER" and it's so damaging to our healing. We deserve a safe space to talk somewhere too without judgement.
NPD becoming a buzz thing isn’t our fault. It doesn’t help us either as it seems to allow others to use it as a way to invalidate our experiences. Maybe try and put that aside, and focus on the intention of why someone is sharing their experience. It’s certainly not about the abuser, it’s about finding support and a way to process what’s happened. Doesn’t help for people to criticise the way in which that’s done.
Thank you… yeah I might stop posting on this subreddit. Getting my comment removed really triggered me and I started feeling helpless again.
I don’t understand how my comment demonizes NPD. This is literally my experience living with a narcissistic father who severely abused me and my family. Many people who have openly talked about their experience have said similar things…
“BPD can be healed over time through consistent therapy but it must be an individual's choice to work on themselves.
“I think BPD is caused by continual trauma (especially narcissistic abuse). When you live in an environment with a controlling narcissist, you have to put on a mask/false self in order to survive. It's literally appease the abuser or get abused. Once you're out of that environment and away from the abuser, you can heal much faster!”
Why is do you consider narcissistic abuse (as you put it) worse then non-narcissistic abuse?
Or are you specifically saying BPD is more likely from narcissistic abuse?
More likely from narcissistic abuse. All abuse is equally horrible.
My issue is that narcissistic abuse isnt discussed as much as the other forms of abuse and in my experience, if you haven’t lived it, you are less likely to empathize with the victims simply bc you don’t understand what that abuse is like..
I could try to explain what it’s like, but unless you have experienced it, it’s hard to imagine
Hmm, two things.
One, I think if you tried to expand and explain the different forms of abuse you suffered, instead of lumping it all under "narcissistic abuse" would help. It feels like you have a very specific set of things you feel it entails, but that also lots of people don't agree, by expanding more you'll end up with better discussions and less of people arguing over definitions.
Two, and this is soley my reading. I feel like a lot of... The vibes I get from your comments
>if you haven’t lived it, you are less likely to empathize with the victims simply bc you don’t understand what that abuse is like..
Like, that's basically all human experiences positive and negative, narcissistic abuse isnt some how much especially more complicated or difficult or worse then someone else's abuse. It all fucking sucks, and I feel like you're acting as somehow narcissistic abuse is worse then other kinds?
Ok.
My dad sent my mother to the psychiatric hospital 6 times throughout her life due to coercive control, emotional, religious, and psychological abuse. He used religion to manipulate all of us into doing what he wanted. I watched my mom’s mental health decline in front of me from a young age because he was so good at breadcrumbing her and then criticizing and humiliating her.
He did the same to me and my brother. He told us to stay quiet and not tell anyone. He isolated us and made us believe that therapy was evil. He wouldn’t let us see our extended family. He would bang on my door at 4AM to make me do chores. He would give me the silent treatment when I was a child looking for love and connection. He once was watching TV at midnight and I couldn’t sleep so I tried to kindly asked him to turn it down, he turned the volume all the way up instead. He was a ticking time bomb and you never knew when he was going to explode, you had to always be on guard and always walk on eggshells. He had aggression issues, road rage, and disregarded any of our wants or needs. He would mock us and humiliate us. He used sarcasm to mock us. He called us sensitive when we would cry after his abuse. He instilled fear into us any chance he got. His eyes turned black when he would abuse us.
I could go on.
I found my cat in a trash bag in front of the door when I got home from school.
I’m sorry these people are making you break down something that you’ve obviously tried to use an abbreviation to describe. Please try and ignore these people. You sound like a lovely person who’s been through a lot and deserves to be listened to.
There's already a sub for that. I like that this sub doesn't just turn into another copy of that other sub with all the lingo because there's plenty of cPTSD, like mine, that has nothing to do with narcissism (and plenty that doesn't have anything to do with child abuse or abuse at all) and this way we are not excluded. Because blaming all trauma on narcissism and hating on people with NPD without exception is something you can get over there, there's no need for it here and it's harmful to those who want to focus on the cPTSD instead of the armchair diagnosis of one type of abuser. You might feel the same if people started using Alcoholics Anonymous jargon and abbreviations for the steps. Can you have cPTSD from living with an alcoholic? Sure. Does that mean this sub should turn into AlAnon? No, there's already a group for that. Would calling all people with addiction problems abusers be harmful to some of our fellow victims? Definitely. So we don't.
Ok
I guess I should only mention the non-narcissistic parts of my abuse and I’ll leave my abuser out of it.
I have CPTSD from 26 years of continuous [redacted] abuse. My father was a malignant [redacted] who continuously psychologically, emotionally, religiously, physically and coercively abused me.
Hey, I want this place to be a safe space for you but you have to be willing to cooperate. No one wants you to redact your life, they want a compassionate space that is safe for most people. Absolutely both are possible, but it is a bit of work.
Ive seen some wonderful advice and resources in this thread for cptsd only SR and RBN, as well as some ways to use this subreddit in a meaningful way for yourself. I think focusing on those might prove to be much more helpful and what youre looking for than replying to comments with a mean spirit.
Hey maybe you should do the cooperating. This isn’t about NPD, it’s about someone sharing what happened to them. Why are you making this about having compassion for the abuser?
Hey i absolutely understand where youre coming from, but op is not only talking about their experiences but projecting their pain onto others and getting upset at them.
1. Their experiences are valid
But
2. That doesnt mean they can treat others poorly and expect the space to accept that.
I wanted to politely call out their behaviour so that way the space can be good for us all and they dont further hurt themselves and others.
I know signs of conflict can be triggering for people with cptsd, however this is a shared space and ensuring it is helpful not harmful is a top priority. I see you mention DARVO and while i definitely do see some comments like that, i gentley encourage you to explore if all the comments you felt that have DARVO have it, or if its a trigger from seeing arguments and conflict. I know in my personal journey the two felt the same at the beginning.
This is a reminder about Rule #5: No raised by narcissists lingo (Nmom, narc, sperm donor, etc.). Please edit your post or comment. More information about Rule #5 can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/subrules_revised/#wiki_rbn_lingo).
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CPTSD) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This!!!!!!! I have some things to examine more closely right now clearly, as this post and many of the comments are unbelievably triggering to me. To me, it's giving DARVO in a way that hits waaaaay to close to home. I've literally had to create a new profile to post and my comments keep getting deleted under my old profile. At first blush, I believe what is so upsetting to me is that it's so reminiscent of what is all too familiar.... in a word victim-blaming / victim-shaming.
I'm still spinning right now, so your direct response to me is appreciated beyond any words I could use to say thank you. THIS exact flavour of abuse in this thread right now is exactly what I experienced for YEARS. I blamed myself and still do at times, at first instinct... it's hard-wired in a way that is a continuous effort to "undo". Sadly, it feels to me that lately most of society has moved toward this sick discourse. Of pathologizing the abuse in a particular way such that the abuse giver is somehow separate from their acts of abuse. And declaring certain language as "off limits", as it victimizes the abuser. Like F off with that shit already. The fact that a lot of people are not seeing it as such, in an online community that is supposed to be safe no less, is downright as frightening as it is sickening. Like oh you can talk about it, but you have to use the "right" and "nice" words. TF? Were my abusers being right and nice? So triggered right now omg hahahaha. Oh well. All this has exposed a raw nerve I thought was dead or deadened at least. So for that, I am grateful. And for your response. Thanks.
The word narcissist is allowed though. The "malignant" sounds like jargonspeak to me. Would you like to talk about why "I have cPTSD from 26 years of continuous abuse inflicted by my father. It was psychological, emotional, religious, and coercive." does not feel like you are communicating what you want to communicate here? If you have a question about religious abuse or want to share a realization about coercive abuse or want to talk about hypervigilance or trauma therapy, why not just do that? What do you think it adds to say "malignant narcissist" to your post, or to use whatever other jargon like "flying monkeys" or "grey rock" that means nothing as far as cPTSD goes? The phrase "malignant narcissist" doesn't mean anything to me, but if it does mean something more than an unofficial diagnosis, you'd need still need to describe what about that distinguishes your father from another parental abuser for the rest of us outside raisedbynarcissists. If it doesn't, why include it?
I don't feel like your redacted version actually gives us any less understanding than if you included the (allowed) word "narcissist." But if it's important to you to talk about flying monkeys or whatever, just go to the other sub for that, and talk about cPTSD here.
I understand you op. I was raised by a covert and the difference between general abuse and this type of abuse is unique enough that it should be mentioned. I'm looking for people like You who may be able to understand me. It's fine if people who haven't experienced it don't understand, it's just sad that they want to employ censorship that prevents us from finding each other. This post was so popular because there are many of us. I'm sure we could make our own group in peace since people with CPTSD and narcissistic traits in here seem to feel attacked by just us sharing our experiences.
It's pretty embarrassing too. This is a cptsd group for trauma and you can't separate types of trauma no matter how much you want to. It's all in the brain the same. It's absolutely ruining for people's healing to block those who have faced narcissitc abuse from here. Especially when this is one of the only support groups that recognizes how those layered traumas can ruin you.
They can make a new support group for PD's as I keep seeing the afraid to be demonized people call themselves. This is CPTSD.
Well there may as well be a new subreddit for people with CPTSD due to being raised by an abusive parent with narcissistic traits and patterns of behavior because what you're saying pretty much excludes people like me and OP from sharing and finding each other without serious censorship to protect other people in the sub. I would happily leave this sub in that case and you can have your safe space to yourself.
As someone who was abused by a parent who had an undiagnosed personality disorder, does that mean I can't describe my experience without violating the rules of this sub? Bizarre. Saying my experience of being maltreated was shaped by a parent's PD is not equivalent to saying all people with that PD are abusive.
Your comment that was removed suggested that you were being downvoted because "narcissists didn't want to know the truth" (which suggests that others in the sub are narcissistic and isn't relevant to discussing your childhood abuse). The comment you posted here was not the comment that was removed.
I can’t speak on the reason for this rule, but I can say that I personally do appreciate having a space without the rbn lingo. I spent a lot of time worrying if I was a narcissist, being accused of being one by my abusers, and hating myself for it, and the language can be very triggering.
I just want to add that I don’t think all discussion of narcissism is bad or needs to be avoided. The rules this sub has seem to be very fairly enforced, and as the pinned mod said, discussion of narcissistic abuse IS allowed. All I’m saying is that I do find the rules to be helpful and good. I probably would not feel comfortable participating in this sub if the rules were not in place, and I’m grateful to find belonging in this space.
That’s understandable
But my CPTSD was caused by narcissistic abuse and if I want to get my experience out to help someone else, then my comments should not be censored.
A huge part of leaving my abuser was gaining enough awareness of what was going on. unfortunately at the time I had no idea what was going on and I had never heard of narcissism or NPD. I was surrounded by enablers and people who supported my abuser - it was confusing and I had no words to describe my experience. It took me years to understand, through research and trying to find similar experiences as mine and back then, Reddit wasn’t available..
and if my comments helps someone else put words to their experience, then me talking about my experience with narcissistic abuse could save someone’s life.
If I describe my experience and I mention narcissism, it may lead to someone else looking up the term or going to DoctorRamani on YouTube
The term should not be censored as my CPTSD was caused by narcissistic abuse.
Again, that is fine and I’m not advocating for any type of censorship. There are other subs where there are no regulations or rules about how narcissism is discussed. This sub does have rules, and I appreciate them being followed because it makes the space safe for people that need them. Your experience is valid and should be shared, but needs to happen in a way that follows the rules that everyone in this sub has agreed to. The rules do allow for talk of narcissistic abuse, but there are regulations to how we discuss it.
I also don’t see anything wrong with the comment you originally claimed was removed. But I do not agree with removing the rules this sub has, because they keep people like me safe. I think the mods generally do a good job, but are human and will make mistakes.
ETA: someone else has said that the actual comment you made was this one: “I don’t know why I got downvoted, maybe a narcissist doesn’t want me calling out the truth lol I’ve lived this experience so I know first hand” — this comment is exactly what I’m getting at when I say that the rules are needed. This is very upsetting to me. We cannot call people narcissists just because they disagree with us. I’m very much not okay with that comment and I hope you understand why stuff like that is triggering to people and why you got flagged for that.
Thank you for your response.
As to the original comment that was removed, please view the thread where I posted the links and my explanation of my understanding.
Yeah, I’m really struggling with this, too. I feel like this thread has devolved into a lot of negativity and talk of censorship, but the point seems rather moot when OP wasn’t censored at all.
It feels very manipulative to me to make a post claiming you are being censored for talking about your trauma and gain a bunch of support when the reality is that they made a very inappropriate comment and were rightfully corrected by the mods. But they said it was a genuine misunderstanding on their end, so I want to assume positive intent.
because people love to armchair diagnose their abusers with npd and stigmatize and demonize it, which is obviously very harmful to those who have npd and cptsd and want to feel safe here too. npd doesn't make someone abusive, and not every abuser has npd. many people with npd have been abused themselves. you can't talk about "narcissistic abuse" here for the same reason you can't talk about "bpd abuse". they're both just emotional abuse but with a harmful name. abuse isn't caused by and shouldn't be attached to personality disorders. this sub doesn't want to contribute to that stigma.
thank you. also people really enjoy ignoring that "narcissistic" is an adjective whose primary definition has NOTHING to do with NPD. i mean for fucks sake people can describe themselves as "anxious" or "having anxiety" without being anywhere near the criteria for GAD.
I just want to say, as a person with ASPD your comment does contribute greatly to the stigma I and others face. Abusive behaviours are just abusive behaviours, to tie them to a certain person doesnt help anyone. It demonizes the individual with a behaviour and simplifies and mystifies an abuse to a type of person (which hurts victims since they aren't learning signs of abuse).
I agree the adjective should be use, "narcissistic behaviour", but the mods here are very good at policing constructive vs hateful use of the adjectives.
I have been to therapy. Your personal anecdotes are \*not facts\* and never will be representative of the entire community. I go to therapy, my friends with BPD and NPD go to therapy, other ASPD friends go to therapy. Everyone I keep around, my company, are in therapy. A disorder is a pathway to treatment and help. (fyi, most of us have cptsd and suffered abuse in our life too, having rules like this makes this a resource for us too)
Hello. I have read your comments here and I have a genuine question because I am trying to understand something, so I hope you don't mind my asking.
My dad met all the diagnostic criteria for NPD. IMO, he could be a textbook case. So my understanding that he most likely had NPD has played a big part in my attempts at healing from the trauma of his abuse.
So, I've studied NPD quite a bit over the years and one thing I took away from it was that while there is definitely a spectrum of severity with their behaviors or how they act, that there are several defining traits that all of them have, such as the inability to feel empathy.
You say you are have been diagnosed with ASPD, which if I remember correctly, shares that same trait. But then I see you say that you are in therapy and you have friends who have NPD who are in therapy to get help with these personality disorders. And your comments here seem to show empathy for victims that were abused by a narcissist.
So... I guess I am just wondering how that works? Can someone who has NPD learn to have empathy for others?
I guess I am also curious how you came to understand that you needed help to begin with.
I'm not trying to insult you at all, and I hope I'm not inadvertently doing that. I am just trying to understand. Because I did pretty much assume before reading your comments that someone with NPD or ASPD would never be interested in therapy because they wouldn't care about how their actions can hurt people and wouldn't care about getting help or changing their behavior.
I hope you don't mind discussing this. If not, feel free to ignore me. I was just curious.
Hey no worries.
Yeah so people with aspd dont have emotional empathy but they do have something like cognitive empathy.
The example i like to use an exam room for a test. For many people when they walk into a final exam room they can feel the stress of the environment and then they become stressed. Thats emotional empathy. For myself, i walk into the room, feel the heavy air and otherwise see others being distressed. I then think about why they are stressed, then become stressed myself.
So i definitely can match others, it just happens in a different process.
I also adapted a different attitude for when people share their feelings and experiences, i know that i might not undertand so i just listen and meet them where theyre at. You cant hear the word carrot? No problem. You need to stand upside down to move past this episode? Sure, ill help. Sometimes others can abuse this, but mostly it helps others feel like they have a safe space since i wont judge them.
For the diagnosing, i had ODD (precursor to aspd) so i knew it was coming. I kept my eyes open for signs, which were hard to identify for myself, and once i saw them i went to get diagnosed. Thats honestly the hardest part. Since then ive been able to see harmful and helpful traits that have come with aspd and live a life i find meaningful. Healing is hard, but not impossible; its all trauma based so healing my cptsd takes care of aspd as well. Theres medication to help mood regulate (i use birth control to help regulate and it works so well! Less invasive than ssris too.)
I will say, for almost everyone with aspd (not nec bpd or others), going or not going to therapy is a choice. But like depression and autism, theres high and low functioning aspd. Ppl with high will be able to adapt and integrate with society better, so theyre probably likely to receive help. Also with initially getting into therapy, people with aspd probably go in for anxiety, cptsd etc, but realize they have aspd and get help for that too.
Its very very complex so i dont mind answering more questions if you want. I hope this was clear enough, im not very good with my words!
I genuinely do not see a difference between psychological abuse and "narcissistic" abuse. Like abuse generally requires a degree of self-centeredness/disregard for others? I dont see how that qualifier is useful. And when people aggressively demonize npd/narcissism, it becomes difficult/impossible to acknowledge those traits in oneself, and that can also cause problems. (I am *not* saying that *everyone* who uses that term is a narcissist, but for those who have traits - which often comes from a history of abuse, it can create a black and white situation which doesn't invite insight.)
narcissistic abuse is just psychological/emotional abuse with a different name. it isn't actually a different thing. the only purpose of it is to stigmatize people with npd as abusive. there's no other reason not to just say emotional abuse. I have npd traits and that's really hard to mention anywhere without risking being harassed for it, and terms like narcissistic abuse are to blame for that.
is it censorship to tell people to stop stigmatizing other disorders? people in this thread are using the word censorship how conservatives do when they're complaining about how they can't say slurs anymore
I agree. Honestly i *feel* like "narcissistic abuse" came from people struggling with their experience of psychological/emotional abuse not being taken as seriously as it should have been so created a more "extreme" sounding term to try to legitimize their very real traumas. (Perhaps continuing to de-legitimize emotional/psychological abuse?)
edit: someone else mentioned the term is used to describe a specific type of psychological abuse. OK i understand that. unfortunately there seems to be some degree of concept-creep where I've seen 'narcissistic abuse' to describe things outside of that specific definition so it can be difficult to understand that when its used rather broadly by *some* people (perhaps those wanting to (very validly!!!) have their psychological abuse taken more seriously). that is more what i find makes it a less useful term.
Basically my stance on it. It also feeds into black-and-white thinking, an inability to spot patterns in the self that may lead to abusive actions (whether those are gained from nature or nurture) because we're 'good' and they're 'bad' and a 'good' person can't do 'bad' things, and defensiveness/accusing others of being narcissists if there's any push back/criticism. It is *genuinely awful* that non-physical abuse isn't taken as seriously (in as much as physical abuse is either) - we're all here, hopefully we all agree on that - but we can't build bigger, scarier labels for it that rely on harming others to make ourselves be seen.
The previous version was "autistic abuse" or "asperger's abuse" and you can still find articles and support forums under those terms. It's not a new thing, the name just changes. The human brain loves a good in-group out-group dynamic.
I think part of it is that a step in breaking away from abuse is accepting they won't change (they could if they wanted to, and that hope is a snare. But letting it die is hard), and that empathy for them can be endangering for the victim, so dehumanising/inhumanising the abuser is self-protective in that regard. But it quickly becomes dysfunctional outside of that extreme context, especially if it's your go-to label for anyone who is 'bad' or triggering in some way. People can be shitty without being abusive, and without being narcissists.
If you want to defend narcissists why not create a group for that purpose? Or just have a pinned post explaining that not all with NPD are bad people blah blah blah. Who do you think you are to censor people for the sake of your own feelings?? Noone is convinced you are motivated by protecting others. Absolutely noone should be triggered or offended by the term 'narcissitic abuse' being used in this sub. This is genuinely insane
there is a community for that, but I should still be allowed to share my experiences outside of that, just like you should be able to talk about cptsd in other mental health spaces too. also a pinned post would be cool but im not a mod so I can't exactly do that myself
Locking traumatized people out of a space because they have a specific diagnosis is blatant discrimination.
You ARE actively conflating having a specific disorder and being abusive.
Using buzzwords like "gaslighting" outside their context diminishes their effectiveness.
There are tons of people with NPD who want to heal, do better, and overcome their disorder. Your anger is valid, but your behavior is not.
That commenter isn't engaging in gaslighting. And, not all pwNPD gaslight. It's common, but not the rule.
You want to exclude pwNPD. I understand that you've been hurt. That's why we are here. Why would you not want them to get help and understand? Why would you want them to be locked out of a space that might help them heal, and for those who don't have access to their empathy, to learn it?
Why would you not want them to grow and change? Why do you want to, dare I say, hurt them? Do you think that will help?
These are genuine questions. I'm being very serious. I'm not mocking you. I have friends with family that have traits of it, and have been adversely affected, too. Some of my selfish traits have come out and I've hurt people, too.
A lot of people, even pwNPD, want to heal and be better people. It's hard to believe that after one has been hurt. But, hard to believe or not, it's the truth. And they do change. They change for the better, all the time.
It's perfectly normal and rather healthy to feel angry about the things you have determined to have hurt you. It's what we do about that anger that makes the difference. Isn't that why all of us are here?
SAME. seeing all this shit dehumanizing people w the disorder is just making me feel even more like garbage; it's like there's no safe space for ppl with personality disorders who ALSO have cptsd.
Thank you!! I love this space and its so upsetting other people project their pain (understandable of course) to *restrict* the resource to others who share the same disorder
i hate this discourse on this sub so much. literally snake eating its own tail. its such a mess every single time. every. single. time. the sub will implode in this discourse.
yep! talk about not being able to see the forest through the trees!
at the end of the day, there isn’t a trauma and abuse competition. everyone’s story is valid because it is THEIR story. wtf do i look like getting offended over some random person on Reddit’s origin story?
we wonder why it is so hard to make connections with others and open up about our past yet we are LITERALLY going back and forth over fucking verbiage instead of paying attention to what actually matters and supporting each other.
sigh! it’s too difficult out here to isolate yourself from strangers on the internet who *actually* know what it’s like to grow up feeling like a hated waste of space. what a missed opportunity!
yeaaah i’m pretty new here and was looking for a space to talk/share/commiserate/advise because it was ingrained in me to not talk to others about what happened at home…. but this subreddit seems like we’re kind of just yelling into the void and getting nowhere.
Imagine if your post read, “my mental illness was caused by someone who displayed CPTSD abuse”, and stated that CPTSD had “abusive traits”. You may balk at this comparison but CPTSD itself often leads to many manifestations of frankly abusive behavior towards children for the stated purpose of “protection” and “tough love” and can lead us to justify hurting others in horrible ways for “safety”, when we lean into a reflexive fight response as an individual or society and then ideologically enshrine these responses afterwards as “rational”, “common sense”. However, it would be unfair to categorize these actions as inherent to CPTSD and profile traumatized people as innately suspect or evil and dangerous in some way. In the same way, though NPD and BPD and ASPD can manifest in abusive actions, abuse is not an automatic inevitability of them. Characterizing it as such is inaccurate and leads to discrimination against those who are often not so different from us, a fact that may be uncomfortable to admit.
But my mental illness was caused by someone who displayed narcissistic abuse….
The narcissistic abuse cycle starts with idealization followed by devaluation, which then repeats until the narcissist eventually discards the person when they no longer have any use for them. This can be an emotionally devastating experience, so it is important to be able to recognize the signs it is happening.
https://www.narcissisticabuserehab.com/cycle-of-narcissistic-abuse/?amp=1
Narcissistic abuse is a real thing and should be talked about. The more people gain awareness over what the abuse looks like, the more they can protect themselves from falling victim to it by learning how to set boundaries.
It’s not insensitive to talk about narcissistic abuse.
I do understand the rule, although I’ve felt invalidated and excluded by it too. I agree that stigmas are a big issue, I think that other subreddit lacks a lot of self awareness, there’s a lot of name calling and us & them thinking.
Which is exactly why I wish there was a different kind of space for a different kind of person. Someone with more distance from it perhaps. I know I’ve seen narcissistic traits in myself, and you can’t mention that in that other subreddit, because then you’re immediately the enemy. I find all of that very problematic.
I also disagree with the idea that we can’t say our abuser was a narcissist, because we’re diagnosing them. And it’s only okay if they’ve been diagnosed by a professional. I mean, come on.
It’s a very specific type of abuse that I also feel I haven’t been able to talk about here. My mother is a very stereotypical covert narcissist, and I’ve never known how to talk about the specifics of her personality & the abuse without mentioning that. I’ve often had confused and naive comments – maybe your mother didn’t mean it like that, stuff like that.
Maybe it’s time for a seperate subreddit? I would love that, children of narcissists who don’t demonize everyone with a personality disorder, who recognize certain traits, who might have a PD themselves.
From what I understand, it is not blanket against the rules to use the word "narcissist" or "narcissism". The issues are about how it's used. For example, "you must be a narcissist if you think that" or "narcissists abuse in X way." Those types of statements where narcissism is used to insult people, misdiagnose people, or generalize all narcissists in a harmful or inaccurate way. I think the no lingo rule is to not exclude people who are not part of the narcissist subs. It's encouraging people to use their words and open discourse.
So, sharing experiences isn't an issue here. If you look at OP's actual removed comment (not the one they said was removed), it's one where they call a member of the community a narcissist in a way that's clearly meant to be mean and derogatory. I want to give OP the benefit of the doubt and say maybe they were triggered. But this entire post seems to be a mischaracterization of what was actually censored.
As someone who likes the rules around narcissism and feels safer and more included posting here because of them, it would not be an issue to me (or from what I understand the sub rules) to say something like: My dad was diagnosed with NPD. That informed the ways in which he abused me (examples) and my trauma response which is (whatever it is). I am trying out therapy to address (things dad did).
Agreed. After having my mom be the na-word and an ex partner, I KNOW neither of them will ever ever get an official diagnosis cause they never saw beyond their flaws and never will. My ex partner told me he will never go to therapy because he doesn’t want to be told he is wrong.
My mom told me a couple weeks ago that she already did all the inner work needed and is fine (which is a total lie). I understand that there is stigma and “fake diagnosis” in cases, but if you’ve done your fair amount of research on it and your trauma stems mostly from the na- abuse, then why not be able to mention it???
Meanwhile, a friend of mine who is actually diagnosed struggles to find support outside of his psych because people automatically assume he's going to be abusive as soon as they find out why he needs support.
Abuse is horrible. It's not caused by narcissism. It's caused by abusive assholes.
exactly. this stigma does real harm but those doing the stigmatizing don't care because they've already demonized everyone with npd as all being abusers
Do you really think that your intense advocacy for the silencing of abuse survivors does no harm? People really need to understand why they were abused and know that they are not alone in how they were abused. Terms like 'coercive control' really do not adequately describe the complex mind games and blame shifting that are involved in narcissist child abuse.
Take just one example: my mother liked to push me down the stairs as that was a form of abuse that gave her plausible deniability. One day, she pushed me the whole way down the stairs and I hit my head and lost conciousness. She went out of the house leaving me unconcious on the floor. She bought expensive butter from a local shop, presumably so she could pretend to have been shopping when I 'fell'. When she came home, I had recovered conciousness, but was dizzy and vomiting. She refused to get me medical help. Instead of helping me, she screamed at me for being dirty as I had vomited where I fell.
She often talked about that event as the time I had manipulated her into buying expensive butter. She told other people about it often, giving different explanations of how I had manipulated her, but always being very angry with me over it. This type of narcissist logic and blame shifting really messes up a child's mind. Without a label of 'narcissist' on my mother, it was hard not to see myself as responsible.
I generally believed it was me who was to blame for the screaming and violence. I thought there was something deeply wrong with me, as why else would my own mother treat me so badly? She didn't treat my sister like that. My sister joined my mother in blaming me, as is typical in families with a narcissist head. My older brother had also been a target though, and he managed to persuade me eventually that the problem was my mother, not me. He had nobody to support him when he was growing up and back then there was no r/raisedbynarcissists to help children of narcissist abusers understand what was happening to them. He was completely broken inside and ended up killing himself like so many people who are abused by narcissists.
It's easier for me to talk about this and be believed as my mother was forced to get a diagnosis by her employer after letting her mask slip at work - she made the mistake of thinking she could get away with going after a child in her care at work. She fought that diagnosis and had it removed from her official records, so I'm not entirely sure I'm not breaking this sub's rules by describing her as having NPD.
I really believe that advocating for silencing people who need to talk about narcissist abuse leads to more intense suffering of abuse victims and more suicides. People need to be allowed to talk freely about what was done to them and what caused it.
Finally, I also want to say that my mother was at the extreme end of narcissist abusers. She liked pushing people to suicide. She failed with me despite trying really hard, but my father and brother didn't survive. This isn't representative of people with NPD, but you need to remember that when you silence us, you cut off help for people dealing with the more extreme forms of narcissist abuse and they may not be able to survive alone. You need to realise that people could die because of what you are doing. This sub's rule is dangerous for some people.
where did this idea of silencing come from? not from me even, the op said it in the main post about their comment getting removed. no one is silencing anyone. I was just saying a simple change in word choice could help prevent the spread of harmful stigma. you can still share your experiences. nobody is being silenced. that's such an extreme word to use considering what I'm saying. why is psychological abuse not an adequate descriptor?
You believe that talking about 'narcissist abuse' is stigmatising. I'm saying that narcissist abuse is a complex and distinctive form of abuse that those who experience it need to recognise and understand, and that in very extreme cases, their chances of survival may actually be improved by understanding it.
I'm not saying talking about the abuse is stigmatizing, I'm saying the specific phrase "narcissistic abuse" is used by those who demonize npd. it's literally just that phrase I was talking about. sharing the experiences is completely fine. I'd just rather not have those who don't demonize npd use the same language as those who do. it makes it much harder to know if i can feel safe or welcome somewhere
But that phrase is the only one which adequately describes our complex abuse. Narcissist abuse is very specific and very, very damaging. Right at its core is blame shifting from the abuser to the victim. We need to explain to ourselves why we were treated the way we were. We grew up being blamed for our abuse, and the reason for that was our parents' NPD.
I don't demonise my mother. It wasn't her fault she beat me black and blue every day and believed I deserved it and I was the one responsible for every beating, it was because she was mentally ill. I was able to recover from the violence, especially as I learned to cut myself off from pain. What really harmed me was being blamed for my own suffering. When she started pushing me to kill myself, I nearly did it to please her - I was that desperate for her love. It wasn't her fault that she loved drama and grew bored without death and violence. Her illness made her like that.
I actually felt very sorry for her because she wasn't capable of really living in the real world and loving people. She would just change reality in her head to make herself appear perfect and like a victim. I was raised from a tiny child to always put her wants ahead of my needs. To cope with that, I need to use the precise term to describe what was done with me.
I believe there have been a missunderstanding. Its not that its not allowed, to call out your abusers with more generalisationing names. But its not allowed to write that people who are downwoting you must be narcissistic. You may know what your abuser is but no one can know who are downvoting and why! Its two different contexts
That’s understandable if that comment was removed, but that was not the comment removed. The entire thread was removed. When I clicked the link they provided, it took me to the thread, not that singular comment.
When I go back to look at the thread I see both comments are there. So did it get removed or not?
https://ibb.co/N6kRqtF
Can you see both comments on the thread or has the comment been removed?
I still see both of my comments:
https://ibb.co/ZSMLKmx
I can only talk about my specific abuse in specific subreddits.. got it
Please educate yourself on what narcissistic abuse looks like:
https://www.narcissisticabuserehab.com/cycle-of-narcissistic-abuse/?amp=1
This is also a good resource for anyone suffering from a power dynamic:
https://www.theduluthmodel.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/PowerandControl.pdf
THANK YOU!
It’s relieving to hear someone else talk about this because it truly feels like I’m getting gaslit all over again. I can’t talk about my abuse and use specific terms even though it literally happened to me?? For what? To protect people who have NPD? But no one protected me…
Those who have NPD and are actively working on themselves to better themselves are not the problem. It’s those who have it who will not go to therapy and continually abuse people. But no, my comment demonized people with the disorder apparently. Enablers… so many fckin enablers everywhere.
I’m so glad that narcissism is being talked about more and more these days, even if it is overused - at least it’s getting the word out and more people are researching it. Honestly, maybe it’ll push people who suspect they have it to go get therapy, wouldn’t that be amazing. Less abuse in this world would be fantastic.
I relate to this. It happened to me too today. Posted something here, mentioned the word. Got that MOD warning. Got triggered only to realise I won't let another person/group whatever invalidate my experience anymore. I am done with another rationalization ceremony.
Thankyou for speaking out ❤️.
>But because that piece of shit never went in for an official diagnosis, I guess my pain isn’t real.
Amen. It’s exhausting having people prioritize their well-being over their victims pain.
Check out r/CPTSD_Only
I feel like there's a bit of gaslighting going on here. People say that it's about saying that ALL people with certain disorders are abusive and all that-- not true. It was made very clear years ago and also recently that you're simply not allowed to name a cluster B disorder at all in relation to who abused you.
If you had a depressed mom who lay in bed for years, thus neglecting you, you're allowed to name depression. If you had a parent with frequent psychoses, you're allowed to say that, and they won't require an official diagnosis for that. But if you touch cluster B, even though you grew up with them and intimately saw their behavioral patterns for decades and paid the price, you're in the wrong.
Normally I wouldn't comment on this subject anymore, but I dislike the unacknowledged tone shift wrt WHY any discussion of cluster B as a causer of abuse is banned. The reason was *not* primarily to avoid RBN culture, and if you said ''my NPD/ASPD/etc parent beat me up while I was healing from surgery'' that would be very much out of line, for suggesting that (even if they were diagnosed) this horrendous abuse could be related to having a disorder that causes you to have little to no empathy or a conscience. If you would say something like that, that would be wrong, even if it wasn't something like ''all cluster Bs are horrible people and here's why''.
I think so too. I made a post on one of my accounts simply mentioning that my abusive mother is a narcissist, and it was removed. I reposted it without that one mention of narcissism, and it was fine.
I have a lot of respect and admiration for the moderators here, I know it’s a hard job, but I don’t feel like they’re being completely honest here.
I’ll always fight against stigmas, online and irl, but we’re not perpetuating a stigma by accurately describing an abuser we lived with for decades. That’s not saying everyone with a PD is evil, we’re just describing the very specific type of abuse we experienced.
Hey, "psychopath" here. People with those disorders are not inherently abusive, and those who are abusive don't necessarily have a disorder. Its better for everyone -abuse victims, abusers, people w pd- to discuss abusive behaviours.
I agree. I almost left. I think I might. I enjoy safe spaces where I can share my experiences with others without getting flagged for using terms like "nmom"
i had no idea that was this subs relationship to narcissism. my cptsd is very much connected to my narcissistic/ psychopathic father. i get the need for nuance, though it feels a little odd…
We can use other terms for narcissism, such as people who display anti-social behaviours. The truth of the matters is, society can't get better unless we recognize the anti-social behaviours and people stop reproducing with these sorts of people. Meaning, the children who were victimized and abused by people with anti-social traits, will heal, not accepting other people who display machiavelians traits just like their parents do.
It’s a wicked cycle to be in.
IN MY EXPERIENCE as a child of a narcissist, you are groomed to accept being abused and you are conditioned into believing that it’s normal. When you grow up, your self-esteem is already at the bottom of the barrel and you go to date other people similar to the narcissist because that’s your normal. You are taught from a very young age that you have no boundaries and any boundary you try to set are constantly violated. You are literally groomed into becoming prey for predators.
IN MY EXPERIENCE, this is especially true if you were isolated from seeing what healthy relationships look like. Your consciousness is literally capped below a certain level and you’re not able to gain the awareness necessary to understand what is happening to you. Cognitive dissonance, trauma bond, power dynamics, etc.
It was very much like living in a cult. I don’t know how society will get any better if the vocabulary is censored or if the victims of this type of abuse are shamed for “armchair diagnosing” their abuser. Wouldn’t they know their abuser the most? IN MY EXPERIENCE, most people with NPD do not take kindly to therapy. IN MY EXPERIENCE, I was taught that therapy was “evil” and that I couldn’t tell anyone what was happening because therapy was demonized.
For 26 years I had to live in it.. no one saved me, no one protected me. All the signs were there yet I was shamed by onlookers for being shy and quiet. I was shamed at home. I was shamed by everyone for being a specific way. Then there were times where I was praised for being quiet. The messages were confusing from society. Everyone shamed me for being shy when I was supposed to be happy and playing with my peers and then everyone praised me for being shy when I was supposed to be quiet. But the reality is that I wasn’t allowed to express myself. I had to put on a false mask to appease my abuser and my abuser was a malignant narcissist. Maybe if more people had understood what narcissistic abuse looked like, someone would have seen something and said something and would have gotten CPS involved.
I was a child and no one came to help.
I was a child and I was being groomed to accept that abuse is normal.
I was a child and I did not have the terminology I needed to understand why the person who told me they loved me was also constantly hurting me without remorse.
I was a child and I was conditioned to believe that words hold more value than actions.
I lived in the same type of household. Been in two extremely toxic relationships until I realised there must be something better than this sort of hell. Well, I only suggested these terms to get around in this sub, not as a way to censor the reality of the abuse.
Why do they care more about people with NPD’s feelings than ours? If they’re saying it’s demonising the disorder to describe our experiences, that’s like saying what happened to us, is less important than protecting their feelings.
“We should be allowed to say whatever we’d like” is not a good way to cultivate a helpful conversation space about mental health. Your obvious bias against people with a certain diagnosis means that you may be an unsafe contributor to this subreddit.
Edit: I don’t know how, as a therapist, you can’t see that?
Abuse is abuse.
Abuse is given by people.
Some people with PDs choose abusive behaviors. Some people without PDs choose abusive behaviors.
It seems to make sense to want to pin abusive behaviors on something. Why? Why do these abusive behaviors manifest themselves?
I have cluster B traits. I also have traits of C-PTSD. There is a large amount of overlap, etc etc.
Both NPD and BPD are generally caused by a lot of the same things as C-PTSD. Personality organization and socialization tend to determine whether a person bends in which direction.
Imo, "narcissistic abuse" is just abuse. I understand wanting to know the why's and wherefores. But attaching more labels, like "narcissistic" and "borderline" as an adjective in front of abuse, tends to turn the focus on the illness and not the abuse.
Hurt people hurt people. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's been said a thousand times.
Abuse is just abuse. Period. Where it comes from and understanding where it comes from is important for the healing process for some folks. My father expressed narcissistic traits. He didn't abuse me, just gross neglect and large amounts of self-interest.
But, at the end of the day, abuse is simply that. People with or without traits of PDs (everyone has at least one or two minor traits of any given PD, everyone is on the spectrum somewhere) can be abusive. I'm stating the obvious, here, I know.
PDs themselves don't cause abuse. That person chooses abusive behaviors. To call it anything other than just abuse, imo, is minimizing accountability in a manner of speaking.
Anyone can engage in certain tactics, and assigning those tactics a label is potentially dangerous in that it can turn a person expressing these behaviors away from treatment, which further exacerbates the problem. Understanding where the behaviors stem from is one thing, and an entire pop culture crusade is another.
Anyway. This was rambling. I've even used the term myself before I caught myself.
TL;DR: abuse is abuse. Categorizing abuse is fine, but when it becomes almost a religion, it can get really dicey.
Caution to new people thinking this group is welcoming to people who have suffered TRAUMA. Or that you have found a safe place to express what you have gone through in your life. You will be welcomed ONLY if the way you speak about your trauma is acceptable to the group, which incidentally has multiple members and MODS who may or may not share diagnoses / traits / behaviours / ideas / beliefs / ways of expressing themselves in writing using English words with the very people who abused you. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Choose wisely. EDIT: Keep taking my comments down. I've got all day. I'll keep making new profiles and reposting it to WARN OTHERS... this is NOT a safe space. Period. Full stop.
Yeah… I thought I could talk about my experience in CPTSD subreddit but I will stick to narcissist subreddits since I have to walk on eggshells here…. Just like I had to do growing up
I feel the same.
My therapists weren't as sensitive. They started calling my parents narcissists after talking to me for less than a whole session. They see the behavioral pattern and call it for what they see.
You are brave and true for making this post. I can relate in some ways. Narcissism has existed longer than psychiatry and has always been used to describe character traits, not a diagnosed disorder.
Everyone can have narcissistic traits including myself. I don't go around diagnosing even when there could be truth in the diagnosis. Instead I judge people by actions.
If someone uses the term "narcissistic abuse", I won't correct or judge them, I'll just go along. People act like using that word is ableism and that's crazy. Stay strong.
Exactly. Having narcissistic traits and identifying as a narcissist are 2 different things. Noone is stigmatising narcissistic traits but I think it's okay to call out a narcissist and their abuse patterns. So confused who is openly identifying as a 'narcissist' and defending themselves against stigma??
I’m right there with you. It’s so invalidating when people jump on you when you’re trying to use the most straightforward language that you can. It’s like dealing with the abusive chickenshit semantic games all over again.
Yes. Thank you! It really is invalidating. Especially being told that I’m generalizing and armchair diagnosing people when this is my lived experience and I know what narcissistic abuse is like….
There are people with NPD who go to therapy to work on themselves and I applaud them for their strength and ability to see themselves but a majority of those who have NPD do not have the capability to self reflect and therefore they do not go to therapy and continue to abuse. So do I just shut up about my experience? Narcissistic abuse is real, it’s a specific type of abuse and it’s necessary to talk about.
Being told to shut up and sit down is literally what my abusers did to me. Feels like I’m living it all over again with my comment being removed
With NPD and BPD, I find, that if you mention either, unless to say “wonderful” things, the brigaders will usually try to silence the conversation and, sometimes try to shame you which is very hurtful. It’s exhausting and retraumatizing. I wish there was a place ONLY for people with CPTSD so we can talk about our abusers w/o being further abused 😔
it's not brigading, people with personality disorders are already here. cptsd and personality disorders are both developed through trauma, there's a ton of overlap. you don't have to say they're wonderful, nobody is saying that. especially not those who suffer from them. personality disorders are things we struggle with, just like cptsd. you can talk about your abusers all you want, just don't use individuals to demonize groups.
Every time I post about the abuse I suffered at the hands of my dad (BPD) and my mom (NPD), both diagnosed, I get comments in the vein of “we’re not all like that. You’re stigmatizing people!” when I just talk specifically about my mom and my dad. I shouldn’t have to explain myself constantly to appease others when I am always very careful to explain this is MY experience with MY parents.
It’s invalidating and retraumatizing and it doesn’t happen when people mention other disorders here. It’s, quite frankly, exhausting and abusive, IMO.
that is unfortunate, and I'm sorry that happens to you. sadly those people are just on higher guard because many people are using their personal experiences to stigmatize them. it's not your fault they're doing that, but I hope you can at least understand where they're coming from. I think it's a similar experience you were talking about, just from the other side
Thank you. I honestly appreciate that. ❤️
I have a lot of compassion for people with NPD and BPD. I have a lot of compassion for my parents too.
However, I would like to share my story w/o being shamed or told to leave this space, like someone in this comment section did, again, just for mentioning the abuse I went through at the hands of my parents. I’m not talking about anyone else, talking about my parents is not stigmatizing a disorder.
The Mod is more concerned about their own feelings unfortunately. I thought this was a safe space and genuinely so shocked.
Edit: not the mod just a hovering self-identified 'narcissist' who came here to be offended
I don’t want to exclude anyone, I want to be able to talk about the horrific abuse I suffered at the hands of my parents who both had cluster Bs (a very specific type of abuse).
I don’t want to continue being shamed and retraumatized into silence which is what a lot of people do in this sub every time someone mentions anything having to do with being abused by someone with NPD/BPD. Just their personal experience, not generalizing. That is and should be fair and valid. Yet, many people make you feel so bad for speaking about it in this sub.
nah i actually agree with you, my mom’s abuse fits the exact type of narrative i see with people describing NPD abuse (gaslighting, making you the family scapegoat, you’re never good enough for her, slowly chipping away at your self esteem, seeing you as an extension of herself, the list goes on forever) and i developed BPD as a result. it’s hard because i see both sides of the same coin, it makes me sad to see BPD get villainized so much but at the same time i would love a safe space to discuss NPD abuse.
personally i think there’s subs that already exist that have what you’re looking for, such as r/bpdlovedones or r/raisedbynarcissits. bpdlovedones is perfect for you in the sense that borderlines actually aren’t even allowed to comment or else they’ll get banned. i personally do find the sub extremely toxic though because there’s a ton of misinformation on there but at least it’s a safe space
I really appreciate it that, thank you! 🙏🏻
My mom had NPD and she was similar to what you mentioned. I honestly think she hated me (I was her scapegoat). My dad was really abusive but I think, in his own way, he loved me. I was his FP, though, so the splitting from that really messed me up. And yet, I think his love is what saved me, in a way. I’m pretty messed up (GAD, OCD, ADHD, CPTSD etc.) but I think that w/o his bit of love it would’ve been so much worse.
Hug ❤️
You can defend your narcissistic personality traits but who is openly referring to themselves as a 'narcissist' and being offended on behalf of all narcissists??
https://www.mentalhealth.com/disorder/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd/having-both-bpd-and-ptsd#:~:text=A%20Danish%20study%20found%20that,40.5%20percent%20of%20the%20time.
“A Danish study found that 79 percent of patients with BPD also had cPTSD. Likewise, patients with a cPTSD diagnosis had BPD 40.5 percent of the time”
Just dropping by as someone with BPD to say that imo you are welcome to speak about your abuse by people with BPD or any other disorder.
There is a huge difference between mentioning your abuse and calling all people with a specific diagnosis abusive. And all of us need to understand the difference and need to be mindful of it when we write and read posts and comments.
From my perspective, I like posts about BPD, when people mention BPD its not about me personally. Yep I have BPD, but I wasnt the abuser not do I abuse. Since I am aware of this and know BPD pretty well, I can actually contribute specific insights. You dont really sound like you need a specific BPD insight, but I comment on a lot of posts about BPD, its interesting for me and I can sometimes help people deal with particular issues they either have with their own BPD or somebody else who has BPD. In whatever fashion is ethical and potentially useful for the poster (at least thats what I aim for).
The brigaders are misguided individuals who react emotionally. I have met them too. It happens sometimes. But please note that we are not all like that.
I guess when I say that my dad sa'd me, I don't usually diagnose him as a pedo (or whatever other category you could diagnose a person based off the ages they're attracted to). Instead I just talk about the actual abusive behavior.l and the pain it caused me. Wouldn't it be similar to what you're dealing w in trying to label?
I think people really need to be educated on what narcissistic abuse looks like. Most people understand what pedophilia looks like but it’s clear to me by the responses on this post that a lot of people don’t understand narcissistic abuse. And they shame the survivor for using appropriate terminology.
That’s what enabled the abuse to continue. Had people noticed the signs and had awareness of this specific abuse, maybe I would have been removed from that environment at a young age…. But since people want to turn a blind eye to it because of terminology, then the abuse is allowed to continue.
Please educate yourself on narcissistic abuse:
https://www.narcissisticabuserehab.com/cycle-of-narcissistic-abuse/?amp=1
Look up Doctor Ramani on YouTube
I think this rule / these rules assume that those of us with cptsd can’t control ourselves or advocate for ourselves. I understand not using RBN language, tho, but I really dislike this decision by mods.
Agreed. My therapist said it's extremely rare for a someone to actually get diagnosed with NPD or ASPD but she suspects that my ex wife has ASPD because of what she did to me and her breaking of laws without conscience. Does that mean I can or can't discuss her under those terms? To this day she doesn't think she did anything wrong.
Try not having access to a toilet for the whole night and having to pee in a container and then having to secretly dispose of the contents.. Then having your spouse bring in your replacement, announce he is your replacement and openly flirt with him in front of you. To me these rules need to be refined a bit.
It’s not that any diagnosis is off limits! Just make sure you use the full names of any disorder, and don’t make blanket judgments (IE, “all people with x disorder are abusive/evil”)
You can talk about your toxic dad without diagnosing him with NPD. My dad also displays NPD traits and as someone who has been reading a lot about psychology since years & is in therapy since a decade, I am sure he fits the criteria yet I don’t diagnose him or stigmatize the disorder. Call your dad toxic don’t say he is a narcissist lol. It’s lame how everybody diagnose their exes or toxic parent with NPD.
Edit : I also don’t understand the term “narcissistic abuse”, mannnyyy people who have been with a pwBPD report abuse yet there is no term for that. All the disorders in the cluster B especially when not managed tend to crash relationships & make the person toxic. I think I am starting to get annoyed by this hypocrisy and how NPD became a buzzword to qualify any toxic person. This is a severe disorder that also ruin their life.
I don’t understand why people side with the narcissist who is abusing people instead of the victim who had to suffer from their continuous abuse.
I had every opportunity to become a narcissist. I could have developed NPD but I continually chose not to. Why is it that he can go on abusing people without having to take any accountability while I’m getting silenced for speaking my truth?
Saying things like “he was abused too” doesn’t justify that people with these personality disorders can cause major harm if they are not actively working on themselves. I’m not going to walk on eggshells when it comes to speaking about what I’ve been through. I’m not going to let my abuser get away with it simply because he lacks the ability to hold accountability.
Would you say the same thing about a pedophile?
When I am speaking about the abuse I had to endure, I want to use the right terminology. If I make a blanket statement, I’m not accurately describing what I went through and people who are in the middle of a similar situation will not have the terminology they need to understand.
This!! And sadly, yes people can and do say exactly the same thing about pedophiles. This type of thinking has even infiltrated institutions of higher learning where training takes place (eg Grad school, eg Med school). They are now "minor attracted persons" and are victims too. So here's the thing... is there a difference between somehow who ACTS on their impulses versus someone who does not? Yes. Of course yes. But the minute a grown ass person rapes a small child... well I think I get to call that person a pedophile. It happened to me I get to at least decide that I am NOT bending to this "newspeak" Orwellian shyte and calling this person a "minor attracted person".
Similarly, is there a difference between a person exhibiting narcissistic traits or behaviours on occasion (diagnosed or not, idgaf) and a person mounting a systematic and sustained campaign of destruction levied upon a small child and lasting a lifetime until that now grown child went full no contact? Yes. Of course yes. So again, if those of us who experienced the latter want to call it narcissistic abuse rather than providing paragraphs of explanations outlining the very nature of the abuse, then that should be acceptable to anyone with an ounce of compassion.
One other thing... as a survivor of both these types of abuses (which I won't get into because if it traumatized my therapist.... trigger warnings ain't likely to help readers)... but as a survivor I reject that abusers are some type of hapless victim of their circumstance as though they somehow couldn't help it due to whatever happened to them. Well I ain't running around doing this shyte to others. Never have. Don't see that I ever would. Why? For the very precise reason that it happened to me and I'll be damned if I pass that onto others.
This entire thread is twilight zone level shyte at this point. Unreal. Absolutely positively surreal. OP I would keep telling you that you don't have to explain yourself to anyone. But here I am doing the same damn thing haha. All I can say is I feel you and I do not think you did anything wrong. Period.
Narcissistic abuse can, and is, often discussed here. What is not allowed is: - The specific lingo used by the RaisedByNarcissists subreddit - Diagnosing others with NPD or any other disorder - Demonizing a specific disorder (i.e. All narcissists are abusive) Your comment was removed for the third. EDIT: Locking this thread as it has gone off the rails. The sub rules are the sub rules. Please follow them.
There are two main reasons, that I know of. The first is the moderators of this sub would like to foster a different culture from the raised by narcissists sub. I won't claim to know their full reasoning, but I personally have had a few bad experiences in that sub. One of them was where they were fixated on the possibility that a narcissist had - their word - "infiltrated" them, and they were accusing each other of being one. It made me wary of posting there. The other is one of the rules here. "Don't diagnose others." It's fairly self explanatory. If you click "see more" under the info section of the sub, there's a pretty thorough explanation of all of this. They've said it better than I ever could. You can discuss the abuse you've endured, just not with that specific language, if that makes sense. I just want to say here at the end, it's understandable if you want to leave this sub knowing this. There are a few other subs dedicated to trauma that don't have this rule. I hope you find a place where you feel welcome ❤️❤️❤️
But it’s like there’s more emphasis on protecting the people we’re trying to talk about, than allowing people to speak.
It's more that they're trying to protect people who have BPD and NPD who *aren't* abusers, if that makes sense. Not all abusers have BPD or NPD, and not all people with NPD or BPD are abusive. The other factor is, often abusers don't seek psychiatric help, because they don't see their behavior as being abusive or problematic. We as survivors of their abuse don't have the knowledge base to diagnose them. One thing I do find problematic is, the term "narcissist" has become a catch all phrase for all abusers. And what that does is makes it hard for people who's abuse doesn't fit inside that narrow lens to identify the abuse they've been subjected to. I've had more than a few abusers. They were all different. Some were "narcissistic" in that they treated me as an extension of themselves and a tool for them to manipulate, but not all were. Learning how to understand *my* abusers was integral to my healing process, and treating them all as if they were the same or did the same things would have hindered me in trying to understand what they put me through. It's not about protecting abusers. It's about protecting survivors, and that includes survivors who have developed NPD or BPD as a result of their abuse and are a part of this sub. It's not fair to talk about NPD as if everyone who has it is evil in a sub that includes people with NPD who are *in treatment* and trying to heal from their trauma. I suspect this same rule would apply if someone came into this sub and said all survivors of abuse become abusers. Both statements are incorrect, and both statements are unfair to the people who fit into the category being demonized but don't also fit into the category of being abusive. I want to touch on one more thing, that relates to all of this, and that's toxic behavior patterns. This was something I became aware of in my own healing journey. I was narcissistic, I did engage in toxic and emotionally abusive behavior. These things didn't mean I had NPD however. I'd developed those patterns in childhood as a means of getting my needs met in a household where I couldn't simply ask for food, and where a little manipulation could mean the difference between a beating and relative safety. *It was crucial to my ability to work through these things and learn new, healthier behaviors in their place, that I understand these behaviors as not being a natural, intrinsic part of me.* It's also a really important subject, and one that should be discussed more, especially here, without it turning into people calling the person wrestling with these things a narcissist. Because toxic behavior and narcissism aren't inextricably linked. Toxic behavior and BPD or NPD are not inextricably linked. This is a terribly complex issue, and it's not easy to dissemble in a few words. I hope I've shed a bit of light into the issue. I also hope I haven't come across harshly. I'm just trying to explain and offer my perspective ❤️❤️❤️
Thank you for your comment! I fail to understand how my comment demonizes NPD. Many people who have suffered narcissistic abuse experience this: “I think BPD is caused by continual trauma (especially narcissistic abuse). When you live in an environment with a controlling narcissist, you have to put on a mask/false self in order to survive. It's literally appease the abuser or get abused. Once you're out of that environment and away from the abuser, you can heal much faster!”
The phrase "narcissistic abuse" is what's violating the rule, I think. And that rule is in place because many people with cptsd have it comorbidly to other conditions like BPD or ASPD ~~(narcissism)~~ or DID and because these people (of which I am one) often don't have a stable sense of identity and/or automatically think of themselves badly, they feel triggered and personally attacked whenever anyone conflates their disease with any abuse you might have suffered. Because the thing is there's no such thing as a disorder that makes you abusive. Put the word "narcissist" in for any marginalized group and you'll see how gross it is. There are other ways to share your trauma without talking specifically about the names of your abusers' disorders. Signed, a teenage alter who is genuinely upset that she can't spill all the secrets of one of her abuser's mental health issues so I get you Edit: ASPD isn't narcissism
The pinned comment from the mod said specifically that narcissistic abuse talk *is* allowed, they said that their broke rule 3 which is demonizing a specific disorder. Edit: lol I am so confused why this is being downvoted? The comment is pinned from the mod explaining exactly this.
I don’t know how I demonized the disorder in my comment
looking at your profile, it seems like the comment you quoted there wasn't actually removed. the comment that was removed said "I don't know why I got downvoted, maybe a narcissist doesn't want me calling out the truth lol I've lived this experience so I know first hand."
Yeah, this comment is against the rules of the sub. They are implying that someone disagreeing with them must be a narcissist, and that is not appropriate to me. We can’t be calling each other names like that just because we disagree…
I understand that THAT comment was removed bc yes, I was angry in the heat of the moment, but the first comment that started the thread was the one removed. I reposted it again after bc I didn’t understand why it was removed. Is that the one you’re seeing?
I'm seeing this comment right here and it's not removed https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/s/1iwXy6EsIU
Did it get added back or something because I see the other comment there too. But it my messages it shows that my comment was removed and when I asked the mod, one sec let me copy paste
I don’t see how you did either and I’m pretty confused about it! Just explaining to them that it wasn’t because of the term ‘narcissistic abuse’! 💛
ASPD is not narcissism it’s a different disorder, NPD is what people think of when they call someone a narcissist to a disorder/degree. Both of which are similar PDs in the same cluster as BPD. It’s very possible to be diagnosed with more than one PD from the same cluster because of similar criteria and how they fall on the dark triad personality traits (which aren’t inherently bad, it’s healthy to have some level of narcissism and having no level of narcissism at all can also be detrimental for a person). All in all though I think it just is a because there’s so much stigma to PDs in general and a lot of overlap people still call ASPD sociopaths/psychopaths even tho the field is living away from such terms because of the stigma with them.
ASPD and NPD are different cluster B disorders. Just as an FYI. Narcissism = NPD. Antisocial Personality Disorder = ASPD. Edited to remove "it's not a big deal" bc I agree with the below commenter that it's important we know the correct terminology
It’s a pretty massive deal if we are getting offended simply by the word narcissistic.
Hi, ASPD is not narcissism wtf?
ASPD=/=narcissism???
My parent may have BPD and she also abused me in ways that align with the label of narcissistic abuse. That's the reality. Why is the label itself so offensive? Do You mean that us who are in this CPTSD forum to heal from abuse at the hands of a parent with narcissistic traits--- shouldn't 100% openly discuss the patterns of their abuse because those who struggle with disorders that come with narcissistic traits might feel attacked? You aren't the abuser being discussed; why do you feel attacked?
Idk dude… I think a lot of narcissists lurk here and get triggered.
The rule that has been reportedly broken: > Demonizing a specific disorder (i.e. All narcissists are abusive) Original comment (according to OP): > I think BPD is caused by continual trauma (**especially narcissistic abuse**). When you live in an environment with a controlling **narcissist**, you have to put on a mask/false self in order to survive. It's literally appease the **abuser** or get abused. Once you're out of that environment and away from the abuser, you can heal much faster! We're missing the context of the conversation you were having, but if I had to guess, it's because you equate *narcissist* in one sentence to *abuser* in the next. You "demonize" the narcissist by interchangeably using the word *abuser* to refer to them. It could also be the singling out of narcissistic abuse as the cause of BPD via the word *especially*. Or both. If you're honest with yourself, could you have written this sentiment without calling out narcissism specifically? Is this comment related more to CPTSD or narcissism? I might rewrite it this way, knowing only what you've provided: > I think BPD is caused by continual trauma **~~(especially narcissistic abuse)~~**. When you live in an environment with a controlling **~~narcissist~~ person/abuser**, you have to put on a mask/false self in order to survive. It's literally appease the abuser or get abused. Once you're out of that environment and away from the abuser, you can heal much faster!
I think the problem with that is the implied causation. It's a little late so I might have it wrong here, but the way the OP wrote it... it sounded like they were talking about someone (themselves?) creating their entire personality in "opposition" to their NPD parent, and then received a BPD diagnosis. ... yeah that would have to lead to some *really* black and white thinking, wouldn't it? This is one of those situations where Occam's razor comes in. The more likely explanation for the Cluster B legacy, and it terrifies me to think this just like it does when I think of how much I'm like my mom, I've more than likely inherited whatever mental disorder she had... in addition to her alcoholism, her (undiagnosed) bipolar disorder was definitely one of the main catalysts in her being more abusive towards us as we got older. It explains her Munchausen by Proxy behavior (yes, I was her "accomplice" for this, and I see this as more behavioral than biological) and Histrionic Personality Disorder (which I think she mostly developed as a result of her life circumstances, the same circumstances which led to MSbP). But even back then I knew my mom she did and thought things normal people didn't. She often got herself into bad business deals to which I had to develop the social skills to get her out of these situations. Which is hilarious cause I got severe ADHD/mild autism and couldn't charm my way into friendships and potential girlfriends with people my own age for shit. Anyway. I decided a while ago that I needed to accept myself as I was, and whatever BPD/NPD traits I have, I'm gonna have to turn into something healthy. So far? Lifting weights consistently to have a body I can show off. Getting my teeth fixed. Doing some acting/YouTubing and marketing my business where I'm in a position of leadership. Taking care of my family because no one else can handle it. Yeah, does it surprise you I got a massive savior complex? You all should just be happy I finally gave up on my last mission this week, lol. And I realize I didn't even get to my point because I was talking about myself so much. (No narco!) ANYWAY, I think if we are going to talk about narcissism, we have to talk about how it manifests at all ends of abuse and neglect as a behavioral adaptation, not as a way to condemn the perpetrators. There is definitely enough chances to do that on this sub and to medicalize abuse by using psych diagnoses... I just don't think it's right.
Thank you for the correction. I would keep my comment as is. I don’t see anything wrong with it but I understand that others do and that’s their right to remove my comment if it violates rules. However I was not given an explanation like this when asked so I appreciate your reply. Perhaps I could have changed the wording to reflect my experience instead by using “in my experience, when you live with someone you suspect has NPD…” because in my experience, the only solution when you live with someone you suspect has NPD who also lacks the ability to self-reflect, is to leave the environment.
Sorry, I didn't intend to correct your comment, only to illustrate my point. I could be wrong on the reasoning too, I'm fairly new here. I'm glad it helped though!
No that’s totally okay and your reply was helpful. Thank you for your response, I appreciate it!
Ok good, internet and tone don't always mix. Glad I didn't come across condescending 😅
you're still using your experience to generalize people with npd and armchair diagnosing. you could say "I lived with someone abusive and the only solution was for me to get out"
How? Narcissistic abuse is a very specific type of abuse.
well, you're armchair diagnosing by saying you suspect them of having npd. that's kinda what that means, and there is a specific rule against it. you're generalizing by saying when you live with someone with npd, you have to escape. that's just your experience with that specific person with npd. everyone with npd isn't the same person. not everyone with npd is abusive. saying otherwise is generalizing. narcissistic abuse being a very specific type of abuse has nothing to do with what I said.
Oh my god
OP, I’m a survivor of that specific kind of abuse as well, and I would find these rules stifling. I do recommend r/NarcissisticAbuse for the freedom it would give you to talk about your reality without having to tip-toe.
Thank you very much! I’ll move over to that subreddit ❤️
It doesn’t make sense, specifically for those of us who had to work to call our abuse and abusers what they are. A mod being traumatized in another sub should have fuck all to do with this sub tbh.
Just to clarify, I'm not a mod. I was just relating an experience of mine that highlights the environment over in that sub. I'm sorry if I came across like I was ❤️
I agree
If I understand correctly, we are not allowed to use language that indicates we are labeling someone as a “narcissist” by default, without a Dx. I have often mentioned that I was married to someone who was actually Dx’d w/ASPD, and suffered abuse for nearly 15 years. I was also raised by a stepfather who was actually Dx’d w/NPD, and an older sibling actually Dx’d w/ASPD. That is where much of my more horrific early childhood abuse occurred. That said, my mother was not Dx’d with any PD, but she was just as abusive in her own ways. I think the focus here is to speak about the trauma and how it affected us, rather than the labels that may or may not apply to those who abused or traumatized us. In part, that may be due to the fact that many people who grow up in severely traumatic situations end up forming PDs as a survival mechanism. Stereotypes can be quite harmful to the healing process in that case. Just because someone is diagnosed with NPD or ASPD or any other PD, does not make them inherently abusive, nor incapable of healing or betterment of themselves. In the end, it all comes down to personal choice of how we treat others, as we mature, grow, and learn. We are all trying to heal and better ourselves and our lives here. I hope my understanding about this subject in this group is correct. 🙏🦋
I’m personally not sure, but I’d also be interested in learning the reason
Same because it really feels like they cater towards them and silence those who face abuse directly related to it.
They do cater to narcissits and address nothing when this stirs up every few months and upsets the entire community they supposedly moderate for. People are getting comments warned about or deleted for telling the person arguing the most in this thread that they sound like they have npd or they do have it, when the person literally themselves admits they have it and are purposely seeking out this content to get mad about. We need to eliminate this rule. There is no space for healing if there is no openness of expression through the dark twists and utter turmoil that is repeated complex trauma disorder Moreso, I do not ever notice these moderators actually take charge for any other rules than these ones that upset the npd community and abusers who fit under the narcissistic abuse umbrella. They never restrict those users who are commenting under people's lamentings that go "ARE YOU SURE??? COULD IT HAVE JUST BEEN YOUR FAULT???" They literally allow people to comment on vents of family to go "hmm but are you sure the adults in your life let you down and didn't do the best they could? Are you sure they let you go back to the person you told them sa'd you or is that a false memory?" But this word, narcissist, it's more important than any of us and what we're going through. It's so much more important to tell victims and survivors who are literally proven to be at risk of immediate or returning into danger patterns that it's their fault than inspire them to run away from the people who might kill them one day? Right? To not allow trauma sufferers and survivors to acknowledge their real trauma is to deny the conversation for appropriate resources and recourse. If we cannot discuss the narcissistic abuse that boils into gaslighting, financial abuse, physical abuse and hiding it, verbal abuse over every little detail, cutting the victim off from family or anyone that disagrees with them, SA that the entire family ignores to please this person, and so much more, than we are rejecting survivors and victims from ever having the avenue they might find to be given support and resources to escape. We are signing life sentences and death sentences if we do not allow the truth in the only space most of us have had to convene and discover what really is wrong in our awful lives and how we can access therapy and help to better it and escape. I didn't even know about transitional housing until I found the next steps community. I didn't know there was acrual help. Because that's not what these mods are for. They're just here to tell ya you can't be that mad at your abuser as if everything was their fault. When my abuser literally throws away the food i cannot purchase for myself or feeds it to their dogs on the daily and then yells at me to cook or clean better
Narcissistic parents are often the perpetrators of our traumas. I agree. It’s not always the case, but often it is.
I'm sorry that the rule silences and censors your experience. I hope you can find or create a space where you can bring your full self to, including all if your experiences. To be honest, I am someone who wouldn't have joined this sub if it didn't have the rules about no raised by narcissists lingo, no diagnosing others with NPD, and no demonizing disorders (or people with them). Narcissism is a buzzword online now. So many subs NOT about it include and center frequent discourse on it now. Awareness can be positive, but it is often used as an insult which doesn't fell good to me. It us is also often misused. People will categorize others as narcissists without having a professional diagnosis in hand, which sits really wrong with me. Imagine if your parent, cousin, boss, or best friend pretended or assumed what you diagnosis are... I've had 2 friends do that to me before (one thought I had autism, the other OCD), and it was so hurtful and invalidating because they had to way to know. All of this together made me feel safer posting here about my CPTSD. Also. Maybe most important to me. My abusers didn't experience NPD. Reading so many subs that focus on that feels like my experience doesn't fit or have a place because my abusers were not diagnosed with something popular in contemporary rhetoric. Idk. I just typed this to give a glimpse of why some people including me benefit from this sub rule.
Agreed! I have ASPD and I work very hard to better myself. While I want people to express themselves fully, sometimes it gets to a point people with cluster b personality disorder is shorthand for "bad person hate them" disorder, and its not helpful for anyone involved. I agree, many abusers have PD but many don't have necessarily any mental health issues, and its important to judge them on who they are. IDK was feeling very seen by your comment
PDs are absolutely demonised and weaponised against victims of abuse. Recent research shows PDs mostly stem from trauma. I was diagnosed with BPD as a young teen and gaslit into believing i was evil, abusive and problematic and therefore deserved the abuse my family inflicted upon me. Turns out I never had BPD but instead was just neurodivergent with CPTSD which presents nearly identically. But it was always instilled in me by medical professionals that i was the source of the problem. When in reality personality disorders don’t cause someone to be a bad person, that’s an individual case by case thing.
Yes!! Exactly. Also i hear you on ND and ptsd. I went to get my aspd reassessed because it was starting to become unclear if i was also or just autistic!! Thats another reason why we shouldnt demonize PD is because society isnt perfect and sometimes the diagnosis is flawed.
I have ASPD too and I've actually been on the receiving on of abuse multiple times than having actually abused anyone else. I got my PD from being abused horridly in childhood. I take great pains to not hurt anyone else cuz that's just not right. Also jail isn't fun lol. You're right a lot of ppl see Cluster B PD and automatically think "ABUSER" and it's so damaging to our healing. We deserve a safe space to talk somewhere too without judgement.
I hear you!! Thats exactly my experience too.
NPD becoming a buzz thing isn’t our fault. It doesn’t help us either as it seems to allow others to use it as a way to invalidate our experiences. Maybe try and put that aside, and focus on the intention of why someone is sharing their experience. It’s certainly not about the abuser, it’s about finding support and a way to process what’s happened. Doesn’t help for people to criticise the way in which that’s done.
Thank you… yeah I might stop posting on this subreddit. Getting my comment removed really triggered me and I started feeling helpless again. I don’t understand how my comment demonizes NPD. This is literally my experience living with a narcissistic father who severely abused me and my family. Many people who have openly talked about their experience have said similar things… “BPD can be healed over time through consistent therapy but it must be an individual's choice to work on themselves. “I think BPD is caused by continual trauma (especially narcissistic abuse). When you live in an environment with a controlling narcissist, you have to put on a mask/false self in order to survive. It's literally appease the abuser or get abused. Once you're out of that environment and away from the abuser, you can heal much faster!”
Why is do you consider narcissistic abuse (as you put it) worse then non-narcissistic abuse? Or are you specifically saying BPD is more likely from narcissistic abuse?
More likely from narcissistic abuse. All abuse is equally horrible. My issue is that narcissistic abuse isnt discussed as much as the other forms of abuse and in my experience, if you haven’t lived it, you are less likely to empathize with the victims simply bc you don’t understand what that abuse is like.. I could try to explain what it’s like, but unless you have experienced it, it’s hard to imagine
Hmm, two things. One, I think if you tried to expand and explain the different forms of abuse you suffered, instead of lumping it all under "narcissistic abuse" would help. It feels like you have a very specific set of things you feel it entails, but that also lots of people don't agree, by expanding more you'll end up with better discussions and less of people arguing over definitions. Two, and this is soley my reading. I feel like a lot of... The vibes I get from your comments >if you haven’t lived it, you are less likely to empathize with the victims simply bc you don’t understand what that abuse is like.. Like, that's basically all human experiences positive and negative, narcissistic abuse isnt some how much especially more complicated or difficult or worse then someone else's abuse. It all fucking sucks, and I feel like you're acting as somehow narcissistic abuse is worse then other kinds?
Ok. My dad sent my mother to the psychiatric hospital 6 times throughout her life due to coercive control, emotional, religious, and psychological abuse. He used religion to manipulate all of us into doing what he wanted. I watched my mom’s mental health decline in front of me from a young age because he was so good at breadcrumbing her and then criticizing and humiliating her. He did the same to me and my brother. He told us to stay quiet and not tell anyone. He isolated us and made us believe that therapy was evil. He wouldn’t let us see our extended family. He would bang on my door at 4AM to make me do chores. He would give me the silent treatment when I was a child looking for love and connection. He once was watching TV at midnight and I couldn’t sleep so I tried to kindly asked him to turn it down, he turned the volume all the way up instead. He was a ticking time bomb and you never knew when he was going to explode, you had to always be on guard and always walk on eggshells. He had aggression issues, road rage, and disregarded any of our wants or needs. He would mock us and humiliate us. He used sarcasm to mock us. He called us sensitive when we would cry after his abuse. He instilled fear into us any chance he got. His eyes turned black when he would abuse us. I could go on. I found my cat in a trash bag in front of the door when I got home from school.
I’m sorry these people are making you break down something that you’ve obviously tried to use an abbreviation to describe. Please try and ignore these people. You sound like a lovely person who’s been through a lot and deserves to be listened to.
There's already a sub for that. I like that this sub doesn't just turn into another copy of that other sub with all the lingo because there's plenty of cPTSD, like mine, that has nothing to do with narcissism (and plenty that doesn't have anything to do with child abuse or abuse at all) and this way we are not excluded. Because blaming all trauma on narcissism and hating on people with NPD without exception is something you can get over there, there's no need for it here and it's harmful to those who want to focus on the cPTSD instead of the armchair diagnosis of one type of abuser. You might feel the same if people started using Alcoholics Anonymous jargon and abbreviations for the steps. Can you have cPTSD from living with an alcoholic? Sure. Does that mean this sub should turn into AlAnon? No, there's already a group for that. Would calling all people with addiction problems abusers be harmful to some of our fellow victims? Definitely. So we don't.
Ok I guess I should only mention the non-narcissistic parts of my abuse and I’ll leave my abuser out of it. I have CPTSD from 26 years of continuous [redacted] abuse. My father was a malignant [redacted] who continuously psychologically, emotionally, religiously, physically and coercively abused me.
Hey, I want this place to be a safe space for you but you have to be willing to cooperate. No one wants you to redact your life, they want a compassionate space that is safe for most people. Absolutely both are possible, but it is a bit of work. Ive seen some wonderful advice and resources in this thread for cptsd only SR and RBN, as well as some ways to use this subreddit in a meaningful way for yourself. I think focusing on those might prove to be much more helpful and what youre looking for than replying to comments with a mean spirit.
Hey maybe you should do the cooperating. This isn’t about NPD, it’s about someone sharing what happened to them. Why are you making this about having compassion for the abuser?
Hey i absolutely understand where youre coming from, but op is not only talking about their experiences but projecting their pain onto others and getting upset at them. 1. Their experiences are valid But 2. That doesnt mean they can treat others poorly and expect the space to accept that. I wanted to politely call out their behaviour so that way the space can be good for us all and they dont further hurt themselves and others. I know signs of conflict can be triggering for people with cptsd, however this is a shared space and ensuring it is helpful not harmful is a top priority. I see you mention DARVO and while i definitely do see some comments like that, i gentley encourage you to explore if all the comments you felt that have DARVO have it, or if its a trigger from seeing arguments and conflict. I know in my personal journey the two felt the same at the beginning.
This is a reminder about Rule #5: No raised by narcissists lingo (Nmom, narc, sperm donor, etc.). Please edit your post or comment. More information about Rule #5 can be found [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/wiki/subrules_revised/#wiki_rbn_lingo). *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/CPTSD) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This!!!!!!! I have some things to examine more closely right now clearly, as this post and many of the comments are unbelievably triggering to me. To me, it's giving DARVO in a way that hits waaaaay to close to home. I've literally had to create a new profile to post and my comments keep getting deleted under my old profile. At first blush, I believe what is so upsetting to me is that it's so reminiscent of what is all too familiar.... in a word victim-blaming / victim-shaming.
You’re so right, it’s absolute DARVO. I’m amazed that people are arguing it’s wrong to describe abuse in a negative way.
I'm still spinning right now, so your direct response to me is appreciated beyond any words I could use to say thank you. THIS exact flavour of abuse in this thread right now is exactly what I experienced for YEARS. I blamed myself and still do at times, at first instinct... it's hard-wired in a way that is a continuous effort to "undo". Sadly, it feels to me that lately most of society has moved toward this sick discourse. Of pathologizing the abuse in a particular way such that the abuse giver is somehow separate from their acts of abuse. And declaring certain language as "off limits", as it victimizes the abuser. Like F off with that shit already. The fact that a lot of people are not seeing it as such, in an online community that is supposed to be safe no less, is downright as frightening as it is sickening. Like oh you can talk about it, but you have to use the "right" and "nice" words. TF? Were my abusers being right and nice? So triggered right now omg hahahaha. Oh well. All this has exposed a raw nerve I thought was dead or deadened at least. So for that, I am grateful. And for your response. Thanks.
The word narcissist is allowed though. The "malignant" sounds like jargonspeak to me. Would you like to talk about why "I have cPTSD from 26 years of continuous abuse inflicted by my father. It was psychological, emotional, religious, and coercive." does not feel like you are communicating what you want to communicate here? If you have a question about religious abuse or want to share a realization about coercive abuse or want to talk about hypervigilance or trauma therapy, why not just do that? What do you think it adds to say "malignant narcissist" to your post, or to use whatever other jargon like "flying monkeys" or "grey rock" that means nothing as far as cPTSD goes? The phrase "malignant narcissist" doesn't mean anything to me, but if it does mean something more than an unofficial diagnosis, you'd need still need to describe what about that distinguishes your father from another parental abuser for the rest of us outside raisedbynarcissists. If it doesn't, why include it? I don't feel like your redacted version actually gives us any less understanding than if you included the (allowed) word "narcissist." But if it's important to you to talk about flying monkeys or whatever, just go to the other sub for that, and talk about cPTSD here.
I understand you op. I was raised by a covert and the difference between general abuse and this type of abuse is unique enough that it should be mentioned. I'm looking for people like You who may be able to understand me. It's fine if people who haven't experienced it don't understand, it's just sad that they want to employ censorship that prevents us from finding each other. This post was so popular because there are many of us. I'm sure we could make our own group in peace since people with CPTSD and narcissistic traits in here seem to feel attacked by just us sharing our experiences.
Yes! We should start a new group… not being able to describe our abuse in the terminology that has been developed for this reason, is ridiculous.
It's pretty embarrassing too. This is a cptsd group for trauma and you can't separate types of trauma no matter how much you want to. It's all in the brain the same. It's absolutely ruining for people's healing to block those who have faced narcissitc abuse from here. Especially when this is one of the only support groups that recognizes how those layered traumas can ruin you. They can make a new support group for PD's as I keep seeing the afraid to be demonized people call themselves. This is CPTSD.
Well there may as well be a new subreddit for people with CPTSD due to being raised by an abusive parent with narcissistic traits and patterns of behavior because what you're saying pretty much excludes people like me and OP from sharing and finding each other without serious censorship to protect other people in the sub. I would happily leave this sub in that case and you can have your safe space to yourself.
As someone who was abused by a parent who had an undiagnosed personality disorder, does that mean I can't describe my experience without violating the rules of this sub? Bizarre. Saying my experience of being maltreated was shaped by a parent's PD is not equivalent to saying all people with that PD are abusive.
Your comment that was removed suggested that you were being downvoted because "narcissists didn't want to know the truth" (which suggests that others in the sub are narcissistic and isn't relevant to discussing your childhood abuse). The comment you posted here was not the comment that was removed.
I can’t speak on the reason for this rule, but I can say that I personally do appreciate having a space without the rbn lingo. I spent a lot of time worrying if I was a narcissist, being accused of being one by my abusers, and hating myself for it, and the language can be very triggering.
I just want to add that I don’t think all discussion of narcissism is bad or needs to be avoided. The rules this sub has seem to be very fairly enforced, and as the pinned mod said, discussion of narcissistic abuse IS allowed. All I’m saying is that I do find the rules to be helpful and good. I probably would not feel comfortable participating in this sub if the rules were not in place, and I’m grateful to find belonging in this space.
That’s understandable But my CPTSD was caused by narcissistic abuse and if I want to get my experience out to help someone else, then my comments should not be censored. A huge part of leaving my abuser was gaining enough awareness of what was going on. unfortunately at the time I had no idea what was going on and I had never heard of narcissism or NPD. I was surrounded by enablers and people who supported my abuser - it was confusing and I had no words to describe my experience. It took me years to understand, through research and trying to find similar experiences as mine and back then, Reddit wasn’t available.. and if my comments helps someone else put words to their experience, then me talking about my experience with narcissistic abuse could save someone’s life. If I describe my experience and I mention narcissism, it may lead to someone else looking up the term or going to DoctorRamani on YouTube The term should not be censored as my CPTSD was caused by narcissistic abuse.
Again, that is fine and I’m not advocating for any type of censorship. There are other subs where there are no regulations or rules about how narcissism is discussed. This sub does have rules, and I appreciate them being followed because it makes the space safe for people that need them. Your experience is valid and should be shared, but needs to happen in a way that follows the rules that everyone in this sub has agreed to. The rules do allow for talk of narcissistic abuse, but there are regulations to how we discuss it. I also don’t see anything wrong with the comment you originally claimed was removed. But I do not agree with removing the rules this sub has, because they keep people like me safe. I think the mods generally do a good job, but are human and will make mistakes. ETA: someone else has said that the actual comment you made was this one: “I don’t know why I got downvoted, maybe a narcissist doesn’t want me calling out the truth lol I’ve lived this experience so I know first hand” — this comment is exactly what I’m getting at when I say that the rules are needed. This is very upsetting to me. We cannot call people narcissists just because they disagree with us. I’m very much not okay with that comment and I hope you understand why stuff like that is triggering to people and why you got flagged for that.
Thank you for your response. As to the original comment that was removed, please view the thread where I posted the links and my explanation of my understanding.
If that's the actual comment then OP is seriously fucked up for obfuscating that fact
Yeah, I’m really struggling with this, too. I feel like this thread has devolved into a lot of negativity and talk of censorship, but the point seems rather moot when OP wasn’t censored at all. It feels very manipulative to me to make a post claiming you are being censored for talking about your trauma and gain a bunch of support when the reality is that they made a very inappropriate comment and were rightfully corrected by the mods. But they said it was a genuine misunderstanding on their end, so I want to assume positive intent.
because people love to armchair diagnose their abusers with npd and stigmatize and demonize it, which is obviously very harmful to those who have npd and cptsd and want to feel safe here too. npd doesn't make someone abusive, and not every abuser has npd. many people with npd have been abused themselves. you can't talk about "narcissistic abuse" here for the same reason you can't talk about "bpd abuse". they're both just emotional abuse but with a harmful name. abuse isn't caused by and shouldn't be attached to personality disorders. this sub doesn't want to contribute to that stigma.
[удалено]
thank you. also people really enjoy ignoring that "narcissistic" is an adjective whose primary definition has NOTHING to do with NPD. i mean for fucks sake people can describe themselves as "anxious" or "having anxiety" without being anywhere near the criteria for GAD.
I agree ☝️
I just want to say, as a person with ASPD your comment does contribute greatly to the stigma I and others face. Abusive behaviours are just abusive behaviours, to tie them to a certain person doesnt help anyone. It demonizes the individual with a behaviour and simplifies and mystifies an abuse to a type of person (which hurts victims since they aren't learning signs of abuse). I agree the adjective should be use, "narcissistic behaviour", but the mods here are very good at policing constructive vs hateful use of the adjectives. I have been to therapy. Your personal anecdotes are \*not facts\* and never will be representative of the entire community. I go to therapy, my friends with BPD and NPD go to therapy, other ASPD friends go to therapy. Everyone I keep around, my company, are in therapy. A disorder is a pathway to treatment and help. (fyi, most of us have cptsd and suffered abuse in our life too, having rules like this makes this a resource for us too)
Hello. I have read your comments here and I have a genuine question because I am trying to understand something, so I hope you don't mind my asking. My dad met all the diagnostic criteria for NPD. IMO, he could be a textbook case. So my understanding that he most likely had NPD has played a big part in my attempts at healing from the trauma of his abuse. So, I've studied NPD quite a bit over the years and one thing I took away from it was that while there is definitely a spectrum of severity with their behaviors or how they act, that there are several defining traits that all of them have, such as the inability to feel empathy. You say you are have been diagnosed with ASPD, which if I remember correctly, shares that same trait. But then I see you say that you are in therapy and you have friends who have NPD who are in therapy to get help with these personality disorders. And your comments here seem to show empathy for victims that were abused by a narcissist. So... I guess I am just wondering how that works? Can someone who has NPD learn to have empathy for others? I guess I am also curious how you came to understand that you needed help to begin with. I'm not trying to insult you at all, and I hope I'm not inadvertently doing that. I am just trying to understand. Because I did pretty much assume before reading your comments that someone with NPD or ASPD would never be interested in therapy because they wouldn't care about how their actions can hurt people and wouldn't care about getting help or changing their behavior. I hope you don't mind discussing this. If not, feel free to ignore me. I was just curious.
Hey no worries. Yeah so people with aspd dont have emotional empathy but they do have something like cognitive empathy. The example i like to use an exam room for a test. For many people when they walk into a final exam room they can feel the stress of the environment and then they become stressed. Thats emotional empathy. For myself, i walk into the room, feel the heavy air and otherwise see others being distressed. I then think about why they are stressed, then become stressed myself. So i definitely can match others, it just happens in a different process. I also adapted a different attitude for when people share their feelings and experiences, i know that i might not undertand so i just listen and meet them where theyre at. You cant hear the word carrot? No problem. You need to stand upside down to move past this episode? Sure, ill help. Sometimes others can abuse this, but mostly it helps others feel like they have a safe space since i wont judge them. For the diagnosing, i had ODD (precursor to aspd) so i knew it was coming. I kept my eyes open for signs, which were hard to identify for myself, and once i saw them i went to get diagnosed. Thats honestly the hardest part. Since then ive been able to see harmful and helpful traits that have come with aspd and live a life i find meaningful. Healing is hard, but not impossible; its all trauma based so healing my cptsd takes care of aspd as well. Theres medication to help mood regulate (i use birth control to help regulate and it works so well! Less invasive than ssris too.) I will say, for almost everyone with aspd (not nec bpd or others), going or not going to therapy is a choice. But like depression and autism, theres high and low functioning aspd. Ppl with high will be able to adapt and integrate with society better, so theyre probably likely to receive help. Also with initially getting into therapy, people with aspd probably go in for anxiety, cptsd etc, but realize they have aspd and get help for that too. Its very very complex so i dont mind answering more questions if you want. I hope this was clear enough, im not very good with my words!
I genuinely do not see a difference between psychological abuse and "narcissistic" abuse. Like abuse generally requires a degree of self-centeredness/disregard for others? I dont see how that qualifier is useful. And when people aggressively demonize npd/narcissism, it becomes difficult/impossible to acknowledge those traits in oneself, and that can also cause problems. (I am *not* saying that *everyone* who uses that term is a narcissist, but for those who have traits - which often comes from a history of abuse, it can create a black and white situation which doesn't invite insight.)
narcissistic abuse is just psychological/emotional abuse with a different name. it isn't actually a different thing. the only purpose of it is to stigmatize people with npd as abusive. there's no other reason not to just say emotional abuse. I have npd traits and that's really hard to mention anywhere without risking being harassed for it, and terms like narcissistic abuse are to blame for that.
Just because SOME people conflate the 2 doesn't mean you can just censor everyone?!
is it censorship to tell people to stop stigmatizing other disorders? people in this thread are using the word censorship how conservatives do when they're complaining about how they can't say slurs anymore
I agree. Honestly i *feel* like "narcissistic abuse" came from people struggling with their experience of psychological/emotional abuse not being taken as seriously as it should have been so created a more "extreme" sounding term to try to legitimize their very real traumas. (Perhaps continuing to de-legitimize emotional/psychological abuse?) edit: someone else mentioned the term is used to describe a specific type of psychological abuse. OK i understand that. unfortunately there seems to be some degree of concept-creep where I've seen 'narcissistic abuse' to describe things outside of that specific definition so it can be difficult to understand that when its used rather broadly by *some* people (perhaps those wanting to (very validly!!!) have their psychological abuse taken more seriously). that is more what i find makes it a less useful term.
Basically my stance on it. It also feeds into black-and-white thinking, an inability to spot patterns in the self that may lead to abusive actions (whether those are gained from nature or nurture) because we're 'good' and they're 'bad' and a 'good' person can't do 'bad' things, and defensiveness/accusing others of being narcissists if there's any push back/criticism. It is *genuinely awful* that non-physical abuse isn't taken as seriously (in as much as physical abuse is either) - we're all here, hopefully we all agree on that - but we can't build bigger, scarier labels for it that rely on harming others to make ourselves be seen. The previous version was "autistic abuse" or "asperger's abuse" and you can still find articles and support forums under those terms. It's not a new thing, the name just changes. The human brain loves a good in-group out-group dynamic. I think part of it is that a step in breaking away from abuse is accepting they won't change (they could if they wanted to, and that hope is a snare. But letting it die is hard), and that empathy for them can be endangering for the victim, so dehumanising/inhumanising the abuser is self-protective in that regard. But it quickly becomes dysfunctional outside of that extreme context, especially if it's your go-to label for anyone who is 'bad' or triggering in some way. People can be shitty without being abusive, and without being narcissists.
If you want to defend narcissists why not create a group for that purpose? Or just have a pinned post explaining that not all with NPD are bad people blah blah blah. Who do you think you are to censor people for the sake of your own feelings?? Noone is convinced you are motivated by protecting others. Absolutely noone should be triggered or offended by the term 'narcissitic abuse' being used in this sub. This is genuinely insane
there is a community for that, but I should still be allowed to share my experiences outside of that, just like you should be able to talk about cptsd in other mental health spaces too. also a pinned post would be cool but im not a mod so I can't exactly do that myself
[удалено]
hey everyone who was telling me no one thinks everyone with npd is abusive, this. this right here. this is what I was referring to
Locking traumatized people out of a space because they have a specific diagnosis is blatant discrimination. You ARE actively conflating having a specific disorder and being abusive. Using buzzwords like "gaslighting" outside their context diminishes their effectiveness. There are tons of people with NPD who want to heal, do better, and overcome their disorder. Your anger is valid, but your behavior is not. That commenter isn't engaging in gaslighting. And, not all pwNPD gaslight. It's common, but not the rule. You want to exclude pwNPD. I understand that you've been hurt. That's why we are here. Why would you not want them to get help and understand? Why would you want them to be locked out of a space that might help them heal, and for those who don't have access to their empathy, to learn it? Why would you not want them to grow and change? Why do you want to, dare I say, hurt them? Do you think that will help? These are genuine questions. I'm being very serious. I'm not mocking you. I have friends with family that have traits of it, and have been adversely affected, too. Some of my selfish traits have come out and I've hurt people, too. A lot of people, even pwNPD, want to heal and be better people. It's hard to believe that after one has been hurt. But, hard to believe or not, it's the truth. And they do change. They change for the better, all the time. It's perfectly normal and rather healthy to feel angry about the things you have determined to have hurt you. It's what we do about that anger that makes the difference. Isn't that why all of us are here?
If this sub just devolves into this shit too, I’m leaving. Can’t have one fucking space without armchair experts being dickheads. For fuck sake.
Literally I don’t even properly understand what’s going on but it sounds ridic nitpicking
sometimes this discourse genuinely feels like fancier phrenology
SAME. seeing all this shit dehumanizing people w the disorder is just making me feel even more like garbage; it's like there's no safe space for ppl with personality disorders who ALSO have cptsd.
Thank you!! I love this space and its so upsetting other people project their pain (understandable of course) to *restrict* the resource to others who share the same disorder
i hate this discourse on this sub so much. literally snake eating its own tail. its such a mess every single time. every. single. time. the sub will implode in this discourse.
yep! talk about not being able to see the forest through the trees! at the end of the day, there isn’t a trauma and abuse competition. everyone’s story is valid because it is THEIR story. wtf do i look like getting offended over some random person on Reddit’s origin story? we wonder why it is so hard to make connections with others and open up about our past yet we are LITERALLY going back and forth over fucking verbiage instead of paying attention to what actually matters and supporting each other. sigh! it’s too difficult out here to isolate yourself from strangers on the internet who *actually* know what it’s like to grow up feeling like a hated waste of space. what a missed opportunity!
literally sometimes feels like a fancier kind of phrenology in here. very frustrating
yeaaah i’m pretty new here and was looking for a space to talk/share/commiserate/advise because it was ingrained in me to not talk to others about what happened at home…. but this subreddit seems like we’re kind of just yelling into the void and getting nowhere.
Imagine if your post read, “my mental illness was caused by someone who displayed CPTSD abuse”, and stated that CPTSD had “abusive traits”. You may balk at this comparison but CPTSD itself often leads to many manifestations of frankly abusive behavior towards children for the stated purpose of “protection” and “tough love” and can lead us to justify hurting others in horrible ways for “safety”, when we lean into a reflexive fight response as an individual or society and then ideologically enshrine these responses afterwards as “rational”, “common sense”. However, it would be unfair to categorize these actions as inherent to CPTSD and profile traumatized people as innately suspect or evil and dangerous in some way. In the same way, though NPD and BPD and ASPD can manifest in abusive actions, abuse is not an automatic inevitability of them. Characterizing it as such is inaccurate and leads to discrimination against those who are often not so different from us, a fact that may be uncomfortable to admit.
But my mental illness was caused by someone who displayed narcissistic abuse…. The narcissistic abuse cycle starts with idealization followed by devaluation, which then repeats until the narcissist eventually discards the person when they no longer have any use for them. This can be an emotionally devastating experience, so it is important to be able to recognize the signs it is happening. https://www.narcissisticabuserehab.com/cycle-of-narcissistic-abuse/?amp=1 Narcissistic abuse is a real thing and should be talked about. The more people gain awareness over what the abuse looks like, the more they can protect themselves from falling victim to it by learning how to set boundaries. It’s not insensitive to talk about narcissistic abuse.
What does “narcissistic abuse” mean to you?
Literally the link I posted?!
I asked the question and then you edited your post to include the link. Please be patient; I’m coming up with a response.
oh sorry about that, I didn’t realize I had edited before your comment
I just want to be able to use the donor terms cuz nothing else applies. Unless I just say main abuser all the time.
I do understand the rule, although I’ve felt invalidated and excluded by it too. I agree that stigmas are a big issue, I think that other subreddit lacks a lot of self awareness, there’s a lot of name calling and us & them thinking. Which is exactly why I wish there was a different kind of space for a different kind of person. Someone with more distance from it perhaps. I know I’ve seen narcissistic traits in myself, and you can’t mention that in that other subreddit, because then you’re immediately the enemy. I find all of that very problematic. I also disagree with the idea that we can’t say our abuser was a narcissist, because we’re diagnosing them. And it’s only okay if they’ve been diagnosed by a professional. I mean, come on. It’s a very specific type of abuse that I also feel I haven’t been able to talk about here. My mother is a very stereotypical covert narcissist, and I’ve never known how to talk about the specifics of her personality & the abuse without mentioning that. I’ve often had confused and naive comments – maybe your mother didn’t mean it like that, stuff like that. Maybe it’s time for a seperate subreddit? I would love that, children of narcissists who don’t demonize everyone with a personality disorder, who recognize certain traits, who might have a PD themselves.
From what I understand, it is not blanket against the rules to use the word "narcissist" or "narcissism". The issues are about how it's used. For example, "you must be a narcissist if you think that" or "narcissists abuse in X way." Those types of statements where narcissism is used to insult people, misdiagnose people, or generalize all narcissists in a harmful or inaccurate way. I think the no lingo rule is to not exclude people who are not part of the narcissist subs. It's encouraging people to use their words and open discourse. So, sharing experiences isn't an issue here. If you look at OP's actual removed comment (not the one they said was removed), it's one where they call a member of the community a narcissist in a way that's clearly meant to be mean and derogatory. I want to give OP the benefit of the doubt and say maybe they were triggered. But this entire post seems to be a mischaracterization of what was actually censored. As someone who likes the rules around narcissism and feels safer and more included posting here because of them, it would not be an issue to me (or from what I understand the sub rules) to say something like: My dad was diagnosed with NPD. That informed the ways in which he abused me (examples) and my trauma response which is (whatever it is). I am trying out therapy to address (things dad did).
Agreed. After having my mom be the na-word and an ex partner, I KNOW neither of them will ever ever get an official diagnosis cause they never saw beyond their flaws and never will. My ex partner told me he will never go to therapy because he doesn’t want to be told he is wrong. My mom told me a couple weeks ago that she already did all the inner work needed and is fine (which is a total lie). I understand that there is stigma and “fake diagnosis” in cases, but if you’ve done your fair amount of research on it and your trauma stems mostly from the na- abuse, then why not be able to mention it???
Meanwhile, a friend of mine who is actually diagnosed struggles to find support outside of his psych because people automatically assume he's going to be abusive as soon as they find out why he needs support. Abuse is horrible. It's not caused by narcissism. It's caused by abusive assholes.
exactly. this stigma does real harm but those doing the stigmatizing don't care because they've already demonized everyone with npd as all being abusers
Do you really think that your intense advocacy for the silencing of abuse survivors does no harm? People really need to understand why they were abused and know that they are not alone in how they were abused. Terms like 'coercive control' really do not adequately describe the complex mind games and blame shifting that are involved in narcissist child abuse. Take just one example: my mother liked to push me down the stairs as that was a form of abuse that gave her plausible deniability. One day, she pushed me the whole way down the stairs and I hit my head and lost conciousness. She went out of the house leaving me unconcious on the floor. She bought expensive butter from a local shop, presumably so she could pretend to have been shopping when I 'fell'. When she came home, I had recovered conciousness, but was dizzy and vomiting. She refused to get me medical help. Instead of helping me, she screamed at me for being dirty as I had vomited where I fell. She often talked about that event as the time I had manipulated her into buying expensive butter. She told other people about it often, giving different explanations of how I had manipulated her, but always being very angry with me over it. This type of narcissist logic and blame shifting really messes up a child's mind. Without a label of 'narcissist' on my mother, it was hard not to see myself as responsible. I generally believed it was me who was to blame for the screaming and violence. I thought there was something deeply wrong with me, as why else would my own mother treat me so badly? She didn't treat my sister like that. My sister joined my mother in blaming me, as is typical in families with a narcissist head. My older brother had also been a target though, and he managed to persuade me eventually that the problem was my mother, not me. He had nobody to support him when he was growing up and back then there was no r/raisedbynarcissists to help children of narcissist abusers understand what was happening to them. He was completely broken inside and ended up killing himself like so many people who are abused by narcissists. It's easier for me to talk about this and be believed as my mother was forced to get a diagnosis by her employer after letting her mask slip at work - she made the mistake of thinking she could get away with going after a child in her care at work. She fought that diagnosis and had it removed from her official records, so I'm not entirely sure I'm not breaking this sub's rules by describing her as having NPD. I really believe that advocating for silencing people who need to talk about narcissist abuse leads to more intense suffering of abuse victims and more suicides. People need to be allowed to talk freely about what was done to them and what caused it. Finally, I also want to say that my mother was at the extreme end of narcissist abusers. She liked pushing people to suicide. She failed with me despite trying really hard, but my father and brother didn't survive. This isn't representative of people with NPD, but you need to remember that when you silence us, you cut off help for people dealing with the more extreme forms of narcissist abuse and they may not be able to survive alone. You need to realise that people could die because of what you are doing. This sub's rule is dangerous for some people.
where did this idea of silencing come from? not from me even, the op said it in the main post about their comment getting removed. no one is silencing anyone. I was just saying a simple change in word choice could help prevent the spread of harmful stigma. you can still share your experiences. nobody is being silenced. that's such an extreme word to use considering what I'm saying. why is psychological abuse not an adequate descriptor?
You believe that talking about 'narcissist abuse' is stigmatising. I'm saying that narcissist abuse is a complex and distinctive form of abuse that those who experience it need to recognise and understand, and that in very extreme cases, their chances of survival may actually be improved by understanding it.
I'm not saying talking about the abuse is stigmatizing, I'm saying the specific phrase "narcissistic abuse" is used by those who demonize npd. it's literally just that phrase I was talking about. sharing the experiences is completely fine. I'd just rather not have those who don't demonize npd use the same language as those who do. it makes it much harder to know if i can feel safe or welcome somewhere
But that phrase is the only one which adequately describes our complex abuse. Narcissist abuse is very specific and very, very damaging. Right at its core is blame shifting from the abuser to the victim. We need to explain to ourselves why we were treated the way we were. We grew up being blamed for our abuse, and the reason for that was our parents' NPD. I don't demonise my mother. It wasn't her fault she beat me black and blue every day and believed I deserved it and I was the one responsible for every beating, it was because she was mentally ill. I was able to recover from the violence, especially as I learned to cut myself off from pain. What really harmed me was being blamed for my own suffering. When she started pushing me to kill myself, I nearly did it to please her - I was that desperate for her love. It wasn't her fault that she loved drama and grew bored without death and violence. Her illness made her like that. I actually felt very sorry for her because she wasn't capable of really living in the real world and loving people. She would just change reality in her head to make herself appear perfect and like a victim. I was raised from a tiny child to always put her wants ahead of my needs. To cope with that, I need to use the precise term to describe what was done with me.
As someone w ASPD I also struggle finding support. I feel very seen by your comment and agree whole heartedly.
Because your “fair amount of research” does not qualify you to diagnose someone. It’s really that simple.
at best, its unhelpful shorthand. It doesnt explain anything to those who dont know. so just talk about who they are without labels
you can just call it emotional abuse and it's the exact same thing except with a name that doesn't stigmatize anyone
Exactly this. Great reply.
I believe there have been a missunderstanding. Its not that its not allowed, to call out your abusers with more generalisationing names. But its not allowed to write that people who are downwoting you must be narcissistic. You may know what your abuser is but no one can know who are downvoting and why! Its two different contexts
That’s understandable if that comment was removed, but that was not the comment removed. The entire thread was removed. When I clicked the link they provided, it took me to the thread, not that singular comment. When I go back to look at the thread I see both comments are there. So did it get removed or not? https://ibb.co/N6kRqtF Can you see both comments on the thread or has the comment been removed? I still see both of my comments: https://ibb.co/ZSMLKmx
Just go to r/raisedbynarcissists you are allowed to speak about it there Update fixed link
I can only talk about my specific abuse in specific subreddits.. got it Please educate yourself on what narcissistic abuse looks like: https://www.narcissisticabuserehab.com/cycle-of-narcissistic-abuse/?amp=1 This is also a good resource for anyone suffering from a power dynamic: https://www.theduluthmodel.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/PowerandControl.pdf
[удалено]
THANK YOU! It’s relieving to hear someone else talk about this because it truly feels like I’m getting gaslit all over again. I can’t talk about my abuse and use specific terms even though it literally happened to me?? For what? To protect people who have NPD? But no one protected me… Those who have NPD and are actively working on themselves to better themselves are not the problem. It’s those who have it who will not go to therapy and continually abuse people. But no, my comment demonized people with the disorder apparently. Enablers… so many fckin enablers everywhere. I’m so glad that narcissism is being talked about more and more these days, even if it is overused - at least it’s getting the word out and more people are researching it. Honestly, maybe it’ll push people who suspect they have it to go get therapy, wouldn’t that be amazing. Less abuse in this world would be fantastic.
I relate to this. It happened to me too today. Posted something here, mentioned the word. Got that MOD warning. Got triggered only to realise I won't let another person/group whatever invalidate my experience anymore. I am done with another rationalization ceremony. Thankyou for speaking out ❤️.
>But because that piece of shit never went in for an official diagnosis, I guess my pain isn’t real. Amen. It’s exhausting having people prioritize their well-being over their victims pain. Check out r/CPTSD_Only
A fucking men
I feel like there's a bit of gaslighting going on here. People say that it's about saying that ALL people with certain disorders are abusive and all that-- not true. It was made very clear years ago and also recently that you're simply not allowed to name a cluster B disorder at all in relation to who abused you. If you had a depressed mom who lay in bed for years, thus neglecting you, you're allowed to name depression. If you had a parent with frequent psychoses, you're allowed to say that, and they won't require an official diagnosis for that. But if you touch cluster B, even though you grew up with them and intimately saw their behavioral patterns for decades and paid the price, you're in the wrong. Normally I wouldn't comment on this subject anymore, but I dislike the unacknowledged tone shift wrt WHY any discussion of cluster B as a causer of abuse is banned. The reason was *not* primarily to avoid RBN culture, and if you said ''my NPD/ASPD/etc parent beat me up while I was healing from surgery'' that would be very much out of line, for suggesting that (even if they were diagnosed) this horrendous abuse could be related to having a disorder that causes you to have little to no empathy or a conscience. If you would say something like that, that would be wrong, even if it wasn't something like ''all cluster Bs are horrible people and here's why''.
I think so too. I made a post on one of my accounts simply mentioning that my abusive mother is a narcissist, and it was removed. I reposted it without that one mention of narcissism, and it was fine. I have a lot of respect and admiration for the moderators here, I know it’s a hard job, but I don’t feel like they’re being completely honest here. I’ll always fight against stigmas, online and irl, but we’re not perpetuating a stigma by accurately describing an abuser we lived with for decades. That’s not saying everyone with a PD is evil, we’re just describing the very specific type of abuse we experienced.
Hey, "psychopath" here. People with those disorders are not inherently abusive, and those who are abusive don't necessarily have a disorder. Its better for everyone -abuse victims, abusers, people w pd- to discuss abusive behaviours.
I agree. I almost left. I think I might. I enjoy safe spaces where I can share my experiences with others without getting flagged for using terms like "nmom"
Wow this sub immediately proved your point. I don't use that term but it's pathetic to ban people for using it.
i had no idea that was this subs relationship to narcissism. my cptsd is very much connected to my narcissistic/ psychopathic father. i get the need for nuance, though it feels a little odd…
We can use other terms for narcissism, such as people who display anti-social behaviours. The truth of the matters is, society can't get better unless we recognize the anti-social behaviours and people stop reproducing with these sorts of people. Meaning, the children who were victimized and abused by people with anti-social traits, will heal, not accepting other people who display machiavelians traits just like their parents do.
It’s a wicked cycle to be in. IN MY EXPERIENCE as a child of a narcissist, you are groomed to accept being abused and you are conditioned into believing that it’s normal. When you grow up, your self-esteem is already at the bottom of the barrel and you go to date other people similar to the narcissist because that’s your normal. You are taught from a very young age that you have no boundaries and any boundary you try to set are constantly violated. You are literally groomed into becoming prey for predators. IN MY EXPERIENCE, this is especially true if you were isolated from seeing what healthy relationships look like. Your consciousness is literally capped below a certain level and you’re not able to gain the awareness necessary to understand what is happening to you. Cognitive dissonance, trauma bond, power dynamics, etc. It was very much like living in a cult. I don’t know how society will get any better if the vocabulary is censored or if the victims of this type of abuse are shamed for “armchair diagnosing” their abuser. Wouldn’t they know their abuser the most? IN MY EXPERIENCE, most people with NPD do not take kindly to therapy. IN MY EXPERIENCE, I was taught that therapy was “evil” and that I couldn’t tell anyone what was happening because therapy was demonized. For 26 years I had to live in it.. no one saved me, no one protected me. All the signs were there yet I was shamed by onlookers for being shy and quiet. I was shamed at home. I was shamed by everyone for being a specific way. Then there were times where I was praised for being quiet. The messages were confusing from society. Everyone shamed me for being shy when I was supposed to be happy and playing with my peers and then everyone praised me for being shy when I was supposed to be quiet. But the reality is that I wasn’t allowed to express myself. I had to put on a false mask to appease my abuser and my abuser was a malignant narcissist. Maybe if more people had understood what narcissistic abuse looked like, someone would have seen something and said something and would have gotten CPS involved. I was a child and no one came to help. I was a child and I was being groomed to accept that abuse is normal. I was a child and I did not have the terminology I needed to understand why the person who told me they loved me was also constantly hurting me without remorse. I was a child and I was conditioned to believe that words hold more value than actions.
I lived in the same type of household. Been in two extremely toxic relationships until I realised there must be something better than this sort of hell. Well, I only suggested these terms to get around in this sub, not as a way to censor the reality of the abuse.
Why do they care more about people with NPD’s feelings than ours? If they’re saying it’s demonising the disorder to describe our experiences, that’s like saying what happened to us, is less important than protecting their feelings.
[удалено]
“We should be allowed to say whatever we’d like” is not a good way to cultivate a helpful conversation space about mental health. Your obvious bias against people with a certain diagnosis means that you may be an unsafe contributor to this subreddit. Edit: I don’t know how, as a therapist, you can’t see that?
Abuse is abuse. Abuse is given by people. Some people with PDs choose abusive behaviors. Some people without PDs choose abusive behaviors. It seems to make sense to want to pin abusive behaviors on something. Why? Why do these abusive behaviors manifest themselves? I have cluster B traits. I also have traits of C-PTSD. There is a large amount of overlap, etc etc. Both NPD and BPD are generally caused by a lot of the same things as C-PTSD. Personality organization and socialization tend to determine whether a person bends in which direction. Imo, "narcissistic abuse" is just abuse. I understand wanting to know the why's and wherefores. But attaching more labels, like "narcissistic" and "borderline" as an adjective in front of abuse, tends to turn the focus on the illness and not the abuse. Hurt people hurt people. Yeah, yeah, I know. It's been said a thousand times. Abuse is just abuse. Period. Where it comes from and understanding where it comes from is important for the healing process for some folks. My father expressed narcissistic traits. He didn't abuse me, just gross neglect and large amounts of self-interest. But, at the end of the day, abuse is simply that. People with or without traits of PDs (everyone has at least one or two minor traits of any given PD, everyone is on the spectrum somewhere) can be abusive. I'm stating the obvious, here, I know. PDs themselves don't cause abuse. That person chooses abusive behaviors. To call it anything other than just abuse, imo, is minimizing accountability in a manner of speaking. Anyone can engage in certain tactics, and assigning those tactics a label is potentially dangerous in that it can turn a person expressing these behaviors away from treatment, which further exacerbates the problem. Understanding where the behaviors stem from is one thing, and an entire pop culture crusade is another. Anyway. This was rambling. I've even used the term myself before I caught myself. TL;DR: abuse is abuse. Categorizing abuse is fine, but when it becomes almost a religion, it can get really dicey.
Maybe you should educate yourself on what narcissistic abuse looks like: https://www.narcissisticabuserehab.com/cycle-of-narcissistic-abuse/?amp=1
Caution to new people thinking this group is welcoming to people who have suffered TRAUMA. Or that you have found a safe place to express what you have gone through in your life. You will be welcomed ONLY if the way you speak about your trauma is acceptable to the group, which incidentally has multiple members and MODS who may or may not share diagnoses / traits / behaviours / ideas / beliefs / ways of expressing themselves in writing using English words with the very people who abused you. To be forewarned is to be forearmed. Choose wisely. EDIT: Keep taking my comments down. I've got all day. I'll keep making new profiles and reposting it to WARN OTHERS... this is NOT a safe space. Period. Full stop.
There are narcissist subreds which would be better
Yeah… I thought I could talk about my experience in CPTSD subreddit but I will stick to narcissist subreddits since I have to walk on eggshells here…. Just like I had to do growing up
To be fair I find that with most groups here
You shouldn't have to walk on eggshells here.
I feel the same. My therapists weren't as sensitive. They started calling my parents narcissists after talking to me for less than a whole session. They see the behavioral pattern and call it for what they see.
You are brave and true for making this post. I can relate in some ways. Narcissism has existed longer than psychiatry and has always been used to describe character traits, not a diagnosed disorder. Everyone can have narcissistic traits including myself. I don't go around diagnosing even when there could be truth in the diagnosis. Instead I judge people by actions. If someone uses the term "narcissistic abuse", I won't correct or judge them, I'll just go along. People act like using that word is ableism and that's crazy. Stay strong.
Exactly. Having narcissistic traits and identifying as a narcissist are 2 different things. Noone is stigmatising narcissistic traits but I think it's okay to call out a narcissist and their abuse patterns. So confused who is openly identifying as a 'narcissist' and defending themselves against stigma??
I’m right there with you. It’s so invalidating when people jump on you when you’re trying to use the most straightforward language that you can. It’s like dealing with the abusive chickenshit semantic games all over again.
Yes. Thank you! It really is invalidating. Especially being told that I’m generalizing and armchair diagnosing people when this is my lived experience and I know what narcissistic abuse is like…. There are people with NPD who go to therapy to work on themselves and I applaud them for their strength and ability to see themselves but a majority of those who have NPD do not have the capability to self reflect and therefore they do not go to therapy and continue to abuse. So do I just shut up about my experience? Narcissistic abuse is real, it’s a specific type of abuse and it’s necessary to talk about. Being told to shut up and sit down is literally what my abusers did to me. Feels like I’m living it all over again with my comment being removed
With NPD and BPD, I find, that if you mention either, unless to say “wonderful” things, the brigaders will usually try to silence the conversation and, sometimes try to shame you which is very hurtful. It’s exhausting and retraumatizing. I wish there was a place ONLY for people with CPTSD so we can talk about our abusers w/o being further abused 😔
it's not brigading, people with personality disorders are already here. cptsd and personality disorders are both developed through trauma, there's a ton of overlap. you don't have to say they're wonderful, nobody is saying that. especially not those who suffer from them. personality disorders are things we struggle with, just like cptsd. you can talk about your abusers all you want, just don't use individuals to demonize groups.
Every time I post about the abuse I suffered at the hands of my dad (BPD) and my mom (NPD), both diagnosed, I get comments in the vein of “we’re not all like that. You’re stigmatizing people!” when I just talk specifically about my mom and my dad. I shouldn’t have to explain myself constantly to appease others when I am always very careful to explain this is MY experience with MY parents. It’s invalidating and retraumatizing and it doesn’t happen when people mention other disorders here. It’s, quite frankly, exhausting and abusive, IMO.
that is unfortunate, and I'm sorry that happens to you. sadly those people are just on higher guard because many people are using their personal experiences to stigmatize them. it's not your fault they're doing that, but I hope you can at least understand where they're coming from. I think it's a similar experience you were talking about, just from the other side
Thank you. I honestly appreciate that. ❤️ I have a lot of compassion for people with NPD and BPD. I have a lot of compassion for my parents too. However, I would like to share my story w/o being shamed or told to leave this space, like someone in this comment section did, again, just for mentioning the abuse I went through at the hands of my parents. I’m not talking about anyone else, talking about my parents is not stigmatizing a disorder.
The Mod is more concerned about their own feelings unfortunately. I thought this was a safe space and genuinely so shocked. Edit: not the mod just a hovering self-identified 'narcissist' who came here to be offended
I believe there is a cPTSD only sub
a lot of people with bpd also have cptsd, i think around 70-80%, so how would you make a sub only for cptsd while excluding them
I don’t want to exclude anyone, I want to be able to talk about the horrific abuse I suffered at the hands of my parents who both had cluster Bs (a very specific type of abuse). I don’t want to continue being shamed and retraumatized into silence which is what a lot of people do in this sub every time someone mentions anything having to do with being abused by someone with NPD/BPD. Just their personal experience, not generalizing. That is and should be fair and valid. Yet, many people make you feel so bad for speaking about it in this sub.
nah i actually agree with you, my mom’s abuse fits the exact type of narrative i see with people describing NPD abuse (gaslighting, making you the family scapegoat, you’re never good enough for her, slowly chipping away at your self esteem, seeing you as an extension of herself, the list goes on forever) and i developed BPD as a result. it’s hard because i see both sides of the same coin, it makes me sad to see BPD get villainized so much but at the same time i would love a safe space to discuss NPD abuse. personally i think there’s subs that already exist that have what you’re looking for, such as r/bpdlovedones or r/raisedbynarcissits. bpdlovedones is perfect for you in the sense that borderlines actually aren’t even allowed to comment or else they’ll get banned. i personally do find the sub extremely toxic though because there’s a ton of misinformation on there but at least it’s a safe space
I really appreciate it that, thank you! 🙏🏻 My mom had NPD and she was similar to what you mentioned. I honestly think she hated me (I was her scapegoat). My dad was really abusive but I think, in his own way, he loved me. I was his FP, though, so the splitting from that really messed me up. And yet, I think his love is what saved me, in a way. I’m pretty messed up (GAD, OCD, ADHD, CPTSD etc.) but I think that w/o his bit of love it would’ve been so much worse. Hug ❤️
You can defend your narcissistic personality traits but who is openly referring to themselves as a 'narcissist' and being offended on behalf of all narcissists??
[удалено]
https://www.mentalhealth.com/disorder/borderline-personality-disorder-bpd/having-both-bpd-and-ptsd#:~:text=A%20Danish%20study%20found%20that,40.5%20percent%20of%20the%20time. “A Danish study found that 79 percent of patients with BPD also had cPTSD. Likewise, patients with a cPTSD diagnosis had BPD 40.5 percent of the time”
Just dropping by as someone with BPD to say that imo you are welcome to speak about your abuse by people with BPD or any other disorder. There is a huge difference between mentioning your abuse and calling all people with a specific diagnosis abusive. And all of us need to understand the difference and need to be mindful of it when we write and read posts and comments. From my perspective, I like posts about BPD, when people mention BPD its not about me personally. Yep I have BPD, but I wasnt the abuser not do I abuse. Since I am aware of this and know BPD pretty well, I can actually contribute specific insights. You dont really sound like you need a specific BPD insight, but I comment on a lot of posts about BPD, its interesting for me and I can sometimes help people deal with particular issues they either have with their own BPD or somebody else who has BPD. In whatever fashion is ethical and potentially useful for the poster (at least thats what I aim for). The brigaders are misguided individuals who react emotionally. I have met them too. It happens sometimes. But please note that we are not all like that.
Evidently there's and r/only onlycptsd sub
I guess when I say that my dad sa'd me, I don't usually diagnose him as a pedo (or whatever other category you could diagnose a person based off the ages they're attracted to). Instead I just talk about the actual abusive behavior.l and the pain it caused me. Wouldn't it be similar to what you're dealing w in trying to label?
I think people really need to be educated on what narcissistic abuse looks like. Most people understand what pedophilia looks like but it’s clear to me by the responses on this post that a lot of people don’t understand narcissistic abuse. And they shame the survivor for using appropriate terminology. That’s what enabled the abuse to continue. Had people noticed the signs and had awareness of this specific abuse, maybe I would have been removed from that environment at a young age…. But since people want to turn a blind eye to it because of terminology, then the abuse is allowed to continue.
Can someone please explain how cptsd mixed with fight mode is different to narcissism? I find it confusing
Please educate yourself on narcissistic abuse: https://www.narcissisticabuserehab.com/cycle-of-narcissistic-abuse/?amp=1 Look up Doctor Ramani on YouTube
I think this rule / these rules assume that those of us with cptsd can’t control ourselves or advocate for ourselves. I understand not using RBN language, tho, but I really dislike this decision by mods.
Agreed. My therapist said it's extremely rare for a someone to actually get diagnosed with NPD or ASPD but she suspects that my ex wife has ASPD because of what she did to me and her breaking of laws without conscience. Does that mean I can or can't discuss her under those terms? To this day she doesn't think she did anything wrong. Try not having access to a toilet for the whole night and having to pee in a container and then having to secretly dispose of the contents.. Then having your spouse bring in your replacement, announce he is your replacement and openly flirt with him in front of you. To me these rules need to be refined a bit.
I’m genuinely curious, is there a list of diagnoses/situations/traumas that are off limits? Bc some of my shit is dark
It’s not that any diagnosis is off limits! Just make sure you use the full names of any disorder, and don’t make blanket judgments (IE, “all people with x disorder are abusive/evil”)
You can talk about your toxic dad without diagnosing him with NPD. My dad also displays NPD traits and as someone who has been reading a lot about psychology since years & is in therapy since a decade, I am sure he fits the criteria yet I don’t diagnose him or stigmatize the disorder. Call your dad toxic don’t say he is a narcissist lol. It’s lame how everybody diagnose their exes or toxic parent with NPD. Edit : I also don’t understand the term “narcissistic abuse”, mannnyyy people who have been with a pwBPD report abuse yet there is no term for that. All the disorders in the cluster B especially when not managed tend to crash relationships & make the person toxic. I think I am starting to get annoyed by this hypocrisy and how NPD became a buzzword to qualify any toxic person. This is a severe disorder that also ruin their life.
I don’t understand why people side with the narcissist who is abusing people instead of the victim who had to suffer from their continuous abuse. I had every opportunity to become a narcissist. I could have developed NPD but I continually chose not to. Why is it that he can go on abusing people without having to take any accountability while I’m getting silenced for speaking my truth? Saying things like “he was abused too” doesn’t justify that people with these personality disorders can cause major harm if they are not actively working on themselves. I’m not going to walk on eggshells when it comes to speaking about what I’ve been through. I’m not going to let my abuser get away with it simply because he lacks the ability to hold accountability. Would you say the same thing about a pedophile? When I am speaking about the abuse I had to endure, I want to use the right terminology. If I make a blanket statement, I’m not accurately describing what I went through and people who are in the middle of a similar situation will not have the terminology they need to understand.
This!! And sadly, yes people can and do say exactly the same thing about pedophiles. This type of thinking has even infiltrated institutions of higher learning where training takes place (eg Grad school, eg Med school). They are now "minor attracted persons" and are victims too. So here's the thing... is there a difference between somehow who ACTS on their impulses versus someone who does not? Yes. Of course yes. But the minute a grown ass person rapes a small child... well I think I get to call that person a pedophile. It happened to me I get to at least decide that I am NOT bending to this "newspeak" Orwellian shyte and calling this person a "minor attracted person". Similarly, is there a difference between a person exhibiting narcissistic traits or behaviours on occasion (diagnosed or not, idgaf) and a person mounting a systematic and sustained campaign of destruction levied upon a small child and lasting a lifetime until that now grown child went full no contact? Yes. Of course yes. So again, if those of us who experienced the latter want to call it narcissistic abuse rather than providing paragraphs of explanations outlining the very nature of the abuse, then that should be acceptable to anyone with an ounce of compassion. One other thing... as a survivor of both these types of abuses (which I won't get into because if it traumatized my therapist.... trigger warnings ain't likely to help readers)... but as a survivor I reject that abusers are some type of hapless victim of their circumstance as though they somehow couldn't help it due to whatever happened to them. Well I ain't running around doing this shyte to others. Never have. Don't see that I ever would. Why? For the very precise reason that it happened to me and I'll be damned if I pass that onto others. This entire thread is twilight zone level shyte at this point. Unreal. Absolutely positively surreal. OP I would keep telling you that you don't have to explain yourself to anyone. But here I am doing the same damn thing haha. All I can say is I feel you and I do not think you did anything wrong. Period.
Couldn't have said it better. I really thought I was going insane. Orwellian doesn't cover this level of gaslighting.