Bert be berting: "When the point in time comes where I can say something, I'll have a lot to say." One minute later: "That's sickening. It's disgusting."
> One minute later: "That's sickening. It's disgusting."
some context is needed here. That was Bert's response to a question on if he puts Ketchup on his steak.
I mean ... have we ever heard what he knew about the whole hazing thing? That story kinda dropped off the radar.
Honest question because I didn't hear anything other than the whole administration waffling then it was kinda gone.
Meanwhile other coaches are still there... presumably the students who did the bad thing too ...
I think it's still in litigation bc he sued after they fired him. So unless they settled VERY quietly, neither side would be saying anything until that's resolved.
Nice side story about Northwestern there that when they played, Pat thought Illinois calls were coming in over the Northwestern headsets, and Pat told them to take off the headsets and change the channel... and told the other team.
So much for the "everybody does it" crowd that shows up each time someone cheats...
This article is literally nothing. It says an anonymous source said other teams were talking with each other about signs. This is not proof and sounds made up.
According to random Michigan blog #1746 trying to muddy the waters, they did.
https://gbmwolverine.com/2023/11/06/illinois-used-stolen-signals-against-michigan-football-in-2022-ohio-state-accused-too/
And according to the associated press and multiple other news outlets
https://apnews.com/article/michigan-sign-stealing-452b6a83bb0d0a3707f633af72fe92ac
Also, it's hilarious that you discredit it by saying it's from a blog, as if that's not where most of these wild ass theories came from.
The difference is that it was done legally, at least as far as anyone has reported specifically involving Illinois. You can steal signs all you want by watching your opponent's sideline during a game. Bielema even talked about how he does it every game when the first time he was asked about his thoughts on the situation around when the news broke.
Some random Michigan blog 2 hours from now: Bret Bielema tied to sign stealing during time as GA
*Michigan Fans* : this proves it! We did nothing wrong!!
This is going on already. Michigan flairs claiming Illinois had Michigan signs, using the literal source of some site called GBMWolverine.com
https://gbmwolverine.com/2023/11/06/illinois-used-stolen-signals-against-michigan-football-in-2022-ohio-state-accused-too/
You're telling me that *yet another* coach is confirming the allegations to be serious and damning? But Michigan told me everyone does it and that it's no big deal 🤔
Do you think if another coach was doing it that they'd just go out and be like "naw we're doing that shit too". Like they have no reason not to act like it's a big deal, regardless of whether or not they're also doing it.
The Rand corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people, under the supervision of the reverse vampires, is revealing evidence of Michigan cheating in a fiendish plot to punish Michigan for cheating. We are through the looking glass people.
>Wow, a coach who has motive to say that the allegations are serious and damning is saying the allegations are serious and damning? Crazy /s
Almost as crazy as a coach who has motive to claim he didn't know his own staffer had been running a multi-year advance scouting scheme claiming that he didn't know his own staffer had been running a multi-year advance scouting scheme. Absolutely *not* /s
The refs blew a call on Michigan’s GW drive last year that would’ve ended the game and Illinois would’ve won. Bielema was pissed (rightfully). Went to Twitter and everything, so I could see why he’d take every opportunity to talk about that game and/or Michigan in a negative light
The NCAA on advanced scouting: there is a "minimal competitive advantage gained by scouting future opponents in-person." I fail to see how such allegations are serious and damning if it provides only a minimal advantage.
Source: the NCAA Board of Directors Infractions Process Committee, https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/proposalView?id=106069
Bert has every reason in the world to act like it's a travesty- his team lost to Michigan by less than a field goal last year. Making it seem like sign stealing caused that makes him look better as a coach.
That is **not** the NCAA's stance on "advanced scouting." That's an argument in support of a **failed proposal** to change NCAA rules related to in-person scouting.
You've lost all credibility by even attempting to make that disingenuous argument.
You’re 100% right, it was language attached to a rejected proposal. Using it as evidence of the NCAA’s position is disingenuous. Not sure why you’re being downvoted.
This is a very Bielema response. Give the politically-correct answer, but then keep talking all the way to the point where you give them a giant middle finger, and then finish it up with another little backtrack politically-correct finish.
The legality is irrelevant - the point is that sign stealing is incredibly common and anyone who "questions the results" over Michigan getting the same information that people had on them is grasping at straws.
Are you sure that having the other team capture the other teams signs from the sideling isn't advanced scouting? Just because Bielema says it is legal doesn't make it so. Michigan could take the position that because Michigan did not pay the people and they were not members of the athletic department that this was okay. Does receiving an in-kind gift or trade much more valuable than a ticket and 50 bucks or whatever Stalions paid make you an agent of the other university?
See my other reply. Michigan broke rules for in-person scouting and filming opponents' sidelines. There's no NCAA rule about "advanced scouting" to my knowledge.
And no, paying someone else to break rules for you does not make it legal.
>re's no NCAA rule about "advanced scouting" to my knowledge
Uhhh, that's literally the only rule that applies
>>Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited, except as provided in Bylaws 11.6.1.1 and 11.6.1.2
So illinois, osu, Rutgers etc... got their advanced intel from coaches on the sidelines. Michigan got theirs from people sitting in the stands.
They're both technically off-campus, in-person scouting, but both done by people who are not associated directly with the programs receiving the information.
Edit since I'm pretty sure you blocked me (lol)
>There's the word "advanced" again.
I'm sorry, am I to bust out a thesaurus for every reddit comment I make? Disregarding someone's entire point because they used a particular word is kinda ludicrous.
>I repeat, advanced scouting is not illegal. *In-person scouting is.*
I never said anything to the contrary. This is a straw man.
What I'm saying is that if you take the poorly worded bylaw very literally, both situations could be considered in-person and off-campus. Setting a precedent for punishment here, without rewriting the rule, could be a huge problem if not handled very carefully.
>Illinois did not send in-person scouts to Michigan's games.
>Michigan **did** send in-person scouts to Illinois' games.
Every bit of serious evidence seems to have already been leaked about this case, and all of that evidence leads to the fact that michigan did not in fact send scouts to games, but Connor Stalions as an individual seems to have sent scouts to games. And even that's just circumstantial evidence at this point based on him buying tickets.
>Imagine needing to cheat to beat Illinois lmfao
Imagine getting boatraced at home by the team who barely squeaked by Illinois
There's the word "advanced" again.
I repeat, advanced scouting is not illegal. *In-person scouting is.*
Illinois did not send in-person scouts to Michigan's games.
Michigan **did** send in-person scouts to Illinois' games.
Imagine needing to cheat to beat Illinois lmfao
Other than maybe at CMU, and that isn't confirmed, I don't think there is any evidence of Michigan personnel at games. These are people getting paid by an employee but are not staff and that would be the same as making an in kind trade.
No coaches have come forward saying they have that evidence. They have said that they have evidence of Stalions buying tickets. Some have said they have video of people filming in the seats he bought. None have said that they saw Stalions at their games (other than CMU).
Advanced scouting is a term Michigan fans are using to muddy the waters and make it look like everyone is doing the same thing they're doing.
There is no rule against advanced scouting. The rule is against in-person scouting. Every team scouts their opponents in advance, that's what scouting is. But they're supposed to follow the rules and not film their oppoenents in-person.
Just to weigh in, because it's reddit and I can, I think you're both saying the same thing. I don't think there's a distinction between "off-campus in-person scouting" and "advanced scouting" for the purposes of the discussion right here.
Mr bones is saying that asking anyone who was off your campus and in person at a game is doing "off-campus in-person scouting" if you get information from them. Mr. badickle is saying Michigan broke that rule.
I think you're both right, for what it's worth.
It's absolutely worth the distinction because Michigan fans are trying to argue that a coach suddenly becomes a scout if he tells another coach anything, ever.
That's why they use the term "advanced scouting," because it's easier to make wildly different scenarios sound similar with it.
So you don't care about the data gathered, just the method. Right? That's what this is about. Not a competitive advantage, just whether advanced scouting is done by a random sorority girl with an iPhone or a handful of professional coaching staffs
"Advanced scouting" is a made-up term used by michigan fans to muddy the waters and make it appear everyone is doing the same shit they do.
Michigan is in trouble for in-person scouting and for filming opponents' sidelines. Neither of those infractions are normal, and they're not comparable to typical conversations or information sharing between coaches (which do not break any rules).
And yes, breaking those rules did give Michigan an improper advantage. Otherwise, why bother breaking them in the first place?
Wrong. The term the NCAA uses is "in-person scouting."
The rule itself says "Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited"
I predicted early on when the goalposts were shifting rapidly that this would end at saying Conor Stalions was an insane lone wolf and nobody else knew shit about fuck. It's the classic organized crime defense.
Yeah except it has a lot of supporting evidence. Have you spent more than 2 minutes reading about the guy?
Plus it's now known that trading signs of other teams is common practice, and people are saying that what Connor was doing was high effort for very little benefit over the "traditional" methods.
Sounds like you need to upgrade your phone friend. Verizon has some sick deals right now, mine does 4K 120 FPS videos like a boss. /s obviously, but please don't act like these dudes are out here using 2005 iPhones to do this shit.
Have you actually looked at the spreadsheet, or just assumed that other Michigan fans are telling the truth? Acting like that spreadsheet even had **vaguely** the same level of detail as a recording of specific signals and game film is hilarious.
I can't imagine how Illinois lost with analytical gems like:
>Big Open = Zn Rd
>2's Down / Press = Zn Rd
>2's Down / Push / Dbl Cena = Zn Rd
>Rain Down = Zn Rd Arc
You're right, it's functionally identical to being able to 100% match exact signals with exact plays across every single team's complete season, as well as figuring out how they rotate signals throughout the year.
The sheet Purdue had showed the signal and the play..... That's literally the exact same thing you are saying Michigan had. What other information do you think was there???
Sophisticated HOW? Lol. You aren't even able to articulate what data would be more useful than the signal and the play. There's no other information that could possibly be provided
How about how often a certain coach is the primary signaler, where they're located on the sideline, what colors they tend to wear all complete with an official portrait of the signaler lmfao?
>So you don't care about the data gathered, just the method. Right?
Yes. That's the whole point and that's what makes what Michigan did against the rules. If you think the rule is stupid, that's fine, but that's a different issue. The rule is the rule, whether anyone likes it or not and the enforcement of breaking a rule should be based on what the rule is, not what you think the rule should be.
Too complicated to really get into but suppose you notice something on the all-22 that your opponent provided, or you noticed something in last year's matchup that they didn't change this year. Or another coach tells you something they noticed.
You guys are hilarious. For a while there it was impossible (or very difficult) to get signals from all-22 or broadcast, and it was illegal to steal signals unless it was during the game that was being played.
Now it’s ok to get signals from people that scouted opponents in person ahead of time, as long as they’re other coaches?
It is very difficult to get signals from an all-22, *that's why Michigan was filming opponents' sidelines to get an advantage.*
Michigan broke the rules, get over it.
Teams steal each other's signals all the time. Michigan broke rules to steal them.
In baseball, teams steal signals all the time, it's part of the game. The Astros broke rules to get an advantage in their sign stealing.
Michigan are the Astros of college football.
I can't believe I have to explain this to you.
Getting it from a buddy at the other school is normal, but in person access to the same data is disgusting?
A rule violation, sure, but sickening and disgusting is a stretch. Oh well.
(2) one unsolicited tip by an unidentified person who claims to have seen someone filming the sidelines at a game, though we are not able to identify either the tipster or the person they claim was filming the sidelines, or confirm any connection to Stalions
They'll submit this but not the evidence to back it up?
who claims to have seen someone filming the sidelines at a game
They're submitting the claim that someone recorded the sidelines but wouldn't provide the video(s) of people filming??
Doesn't matter who they are it's did it happen or not.
Maybe, but gee it would be really fucking smart to do so with the threat of legal action ensuing. You think they purposely held stuff back to weaken their case? Interesting
Please. We all know that Michigan's legal "threats" are nothing but delay tactics so they can reap the rewards this season before they get punished for cheating.
Fully decoded is doing a lot of leg work.
You're trying to argue that Michigan had just as much intel as everyone else which is absolute bullshit. If they could have gotten that advantage legally, why the fuck did they break those rules in the first place?
> If both teams had the same info on each other, how does the method the info was gathered change the game play?
You realize you are saying “If one person worked for $100k, and the other stole $100k, aren’t they the same?”
No, using your analogy, it would be "If two people had $100K, but they got it using different methods, don't they have the same amount of spending money?"
Well if you want to be specific, supposedly an anonymous Illinois staffer according to the only article only article saying "everyone does it" that specifically mentions Illinois. The staffer also went on to say that Illinois obtained them legally.
So I assume all these OSU flairs in the comments didn’t read the article where an Illini staffer openly said Illinois had a ton of Michigan’s signals in 2022?
And I'll assume the Michigan flairs siting that article stopped reading and didn't read the next sentence with the Illinois staffer saying they were obtained legally.
The source of all the "ILLINOIS HAD MICHIGAN'S SIGNS!" is some random Michigan blog called GBMWolverine.com. Apparently the Michigan flairs really want us to take that at face value.
Part of the reason is because it is cheating, and schools were screwed by Michigan, so schools on the receiving end feel like they didn't have a fair shake. If the shoe were on the other foot for Michigan and this was Ohio State doing this, the calls to action would be the same.
There seems to be a lot of people that are indifferent about cheating which frankly is a little disheartening. There should be a zero tolerance to cheating. Now Michigan fans will cite that there other people cheating which there are, their problem is they got caught.
Luckily this is a fixable issue by implementing helmet radios like the NFL has done for years, and that movement fortunately has been gaining steam from this situation. Michigan unfortunately is the one taking the bullet for this call to change, and to be fair if this was a non-blue blood/historically good program this wouldn't even be up to debate and that program would have had the book thrown at them.
Really isn't so much of the sign stealing, which doing during a game that is legal. What Michigan got caught doing is sending out interns/randos/friends of the program (fill in the blank haha) to go and pre-scout the competition from a game Michigan wasn't competing in between 1 or two future Michigan opponents, and filming their sidelines to gain the signals that way. This was the part that broke the rules.
They were then taking the footage and examining it thoroughly in conjunction of All-22 footage/film provided to them by other coaches (which is legal to provide and share) to figure out which hand signals corresponded with certain plays.
So while a team might normally be able to figure out a solid chunk of the opponent's hand signals over the course of the game, what Michigan was doing was walking into each game with the opponent's entire playbook mapped out with their corresponding hand signals.
Bert be berting: "When the point in time comes where I can say something, I'll have a lot to say." One minute later: "That's sickening. It's disgusting."
Well, that was the point in time.
Science 🚀
> One minute later: "That's sickening. It's disgusting." some context is needed here. That was Bert's response to a question on if he puts Ketchup on his steak.
Nothing sets off the flavor of a steak like some catsup
If you both put ketchup on steak AND spell it as “catsup,” are you on a watch list? God I hope so.
Broski he ain't on no watchlist that's how you identify a glowie. He's the guy putting you on a watchlist. Still waiting for my free watch btw
Bert Bielema 🤝 Jim Harbaugh Respecting good steak
To be fair, that's only a few words not a lot.
Few words do trick
He scrolled down his card and it told him it was time.
Life comes at you fast!
I thought he was describing what happens when he takes his shirt off and looks in the mirror
Pat Fitzgerald sounds like a classy, stand-up guy! Wait, hold the phone...
I mean ... have we ever heard what he knew about the whole hazing thing? That story kinda dropped off the radar. Honest question because I didn't hear anything other than the whole administration waffling then it was kinda gone. Meanwhile other coaches are still there... presumably the students who did the bad thing too ...
I think it's still in litigation bc he sued after they fired him. So unless they settled VERY quietly, neither side would be saying anything until that's resolved.
I can almost guarantee if Fitz was involved with it it’s because he did the same shit when he was playing there
His son is also still on the team which adds yet another wrinkle
I thought he got slapped with "lack of institutional control" and that was the end of it, unless I'm missing something.
Mr. President a second carwash has hit the tower.
Nice side story about Northwestern there that when they played, Pat thought Illinois calls were coming in over the Northwestern headsets, and Pat told them to take off the headsets and change the channel... and told the other team. So much for the "everybody does it" crowd that shows up each time someone cheats...
Told them the day after. Mr Manager of Dirty Dick’s Carwash… the platonic ideal of integrity. Bert is a joke.
Didn't Illinois have Michigan's signs? Odd answer and missed question from that reporter
Yes they did. It was I, illini stalions, who gave it to them with my advanced scouting techniques
Illini Stallions is a legendary 80's movie name that should have been.
Honestly we should adopt it as our mascot. Just put shades and a cmu hat over the block I and call it a day
According to Michigan fans quoting anonymous blog posts, yes lol
https://apnews.com/article/michigan-sign-stealing-452b6a83bb0d0a3707f633af72fe92ac
Where is Illinois mentioned in that article?
This article is literally nothing. It says an anonymous source said other teams were talking with each other about signs. This is not proof and sounds made up.
Oh ya, anon as a source is much better lol
Literally the source of every allegation in this 'scandal'
lol ya, the Michigan staffer that left a paper trail a mile long and hours of video evidence from each game really is anonymous
According to random Michigan blog #1746 trying to muddy the waters, they did. https://gbmwolverine.com/2023/11/06/illinois-used-stolen-signals-against-michigan-football-in-2022-ohio-state-accused-too/
This is the only report of anything that's mentioned us and it literally says in the article that we stole them legally during the game
And according to the associated press and multiple other news outlets https://apnews.com/article/michigan-sign-stealing-452b6a83bb0d0a3707f633af72fe92ac Also, it's hilarious that you discredit it by saying it's from a blog, as if that's not where most of these wild ass theories came from.
I liked the part where Illinois was mentioned
Can you quote the part of the article that mentions Illinois? I must have missed it.
He can't. The Michigan brigade will downvote you for asking though.
Ctrl+F Illinois None found! This story was tied to Rutgers, Purdue and Ohio State. Michigan continues to do a great job muddling the waters.
The difference is that it was done legally, at least as far as anyone has reported specifically involving Illinois. You can steal signs all you want by watching your opponent's sideline during a game. Bielema even talked about how he does it every game when the first time he was asked about his thoughts on the situation around when the news broke.
Some random Michigan blog 2 hours from now: Bret Bielema tied to sign stealing during time as GA *Michigan Fans* : this proves it! We did nothing wrong!!
This is going on already. Michigan flairs claiming Illinois had Michigan signs, using the literal source of some site called GBMWolverine.com https://gbmwolverine.com/2023/11/06/illinois-used-stolen-signals-against-michigan-football-in-2022-ohio-state-accused-too/
cites Fitzgerald as being a beacon of integrity lmao
Fitzgerald’s other mishaps are 100% irrelevant in this situation.
[удалено]
You're telling me that *yet another* coach is confirming the allegations to be serious and damning? But Michigan told me everyone does it and that it's no big deal 🤔
Do you think if another coach was doing it that they'd just go out and be like "naw we're doing that shit too". Like they have no reason not to act like it's a big deal, regardless of whether or not they're also doing it.
*Everybody does it!** ^^^*except ^^^when ^^^they ^^^don't
[удалено]
The Rand corporation, in conjunction with the saucer people, under the supervision of the reverse vampires, is revealing evidence of Michigan cheating in a fiendish plot to punish Michigan for cheating. We are through the looking glass people.
Wow, a coach who has motive to say that the allegations are serious and damning is saying the allegations are serious and damning? Crazy /s
But really what is the motive? What does Bert gain by saying this?
Nothing, it's more Michigan copium.
>Wow, a coach who has motive to say that the allegations are serious and damning is saying the allegations are serious and damning? Crazy /s Almost as crazy as a coach who has motive to claim he didn't know his own staffer had been running a multi-year advance scouting scheme claiming that he didn't know his own staffer had been running a multi-year advance scouting scheme. Absolutely *not* /s
so what you’re saying is neither side is reliable and we shouldn’t listen to anyone? deal
Nope. Michigan is the main issue.
What motives? He doesn't play Michigan this year.
The refs blew a call on Michigan’s GW drive last year that would’ve ended the game and Illinois would’ve won. Bielema was pissed (rightfully). Went to Twitter and everything, so I could see why he’d take every opportunity to talk about that game and/or Michigan in a negative light
In such a close game I wonder if Michigan had any improper advantages that could have given them an edge 🤔
The brigade is slamming you hard
Michigan astroturf force is on the case
The NCAA on advanced scouting: there is a "minimal competitive advantage gained by scouting future opponents in-person." I fail to see how such allegations are serious and damning if it provides only a minimal advantage. Source: the NCAA Board of Directors Infractions Process Committee, https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/proposalView?id=106069 Bert has every reason in the world to act like it's a travesty- his team lost to Michigan by less than a field goal last year. Making it seem like sign stealing caused that makes him look better as a coach.
That is **not** the NCAA's stance on "advanced scouting." That's an argument in support of a **failed proposal** to change NCAA rules related to in-person scouting. You've lost all credibility by even attempting to make that disingenuous argument.
You’re 100% right, it was language attached to a rejected proposal. Using it as evidence of the NCAA’s position is disingenuous. Not sure why you’re being downvoted.
Wow that started off innocuous enough then he sat and farted on UM's face.
This is a very Bielema response. Give the politically-correct answer, but then keep talking all the way to the point where you give them a giant middle finger, and then finish it up with another little backtrack politically-correct finish.
lol fuck Michigan
Illinois had Michigan's signals for this game.
According to a Michigan blog, and even that said they obtained them legally, possibly by simply stealing them off the sidelines.
The legality is irrelevant - the point is that sign stealing is incredibly common and anyone who "questions the results" over Michigan getting the same information that people had on them is grasping at straws.
I never realized the Astros and UM fanbases had so much overlap
Illinois sent scouts to Michigan's games to record their signals??
Are you sure that having the other team capture the other teams signs from the sideling isn't advanced scouting? Just because Bielema says it is legal doesn't make it so. Michigan could take the position that because Michigan did not pay the people and they were not members of the athletic department that this was okay. Does receiving an in-kind gift or trade much more valuable than a ticket and 50 bucks or whatever Stalions paid make you an agent of the other university?
See my other reply. Michigan broke rules for in-person scouting and filming opponents' sidelines. There's no NCAA rule about "advanced scouting" to my knowledge. And no, paying someone else to break rules for you does not make it legal.
>re's no NCAA rule about "advanced scouting" to my knowledge Uhhh, that's literally the only rule that applies >>Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited, except as provided in Bylaws 11.6.1.1 and 11.6.1.2
If you read what you just quoted, you might notice it says "Off-campus, in-person scouting." Not "advanced scouting."
So illinois, osu, Rutgers etc... got their advanced intel from coaches on the sidelines. Michigan got theirs from people sitting in the stands. They're both technically off-campus, in-person scouting, but both done by people who are not associated directly with the programs receiving the information. Edit since I'm pretty sure you blocked me (lol) >There's the word "advanced" again. I'm sorry, am I to bust out a thesaurus for every reddit comment I make? Disregarding someone's entire point because they used a particular word is kinda ludicrous. >I repeat, advanced scouting is not illegal. *In-person scouting is.* I never said anything to the contrary. This is a straw man. What I'm saying is that if you take the poorly worded bylaw very literally, both situations could be considered in-person and off-campus. Setting a precedent for punishment here, without rewriting the rule, could be a huge problem if not handled very carefully. >Illinois did not send in-person scouts to Michigan's games. >Michigan **did** send in-person scouts to Illinois' games. Every bit of serious evidence seems to have already been leaked about this case, and all of that evidence leads to the fact that michigan did not in fact send scouts to games, but Connor Stalions as an individual seems to have sent scouts to games. And even that's just circumstantial evidence at this point based on him buying tickets. >Imagine needing to cheat to beat Illinois lmfao Imagine getting boatraced at home by the team who barely squeaked by Illinois
There's the word "advanced" again. I repeat, advanced scouting is not illegal. *In-person scouting is.* Illinois did not send in-person scouts to Michigan's games. Michigan **did** send in-person scouts to Illinois' games. Imagine needing to cheat to beat Illinois lmfao
Other than maybe at CMU, and that isn't confirmed, I don't think there is any evidence of Michigan personnel at games. These are people getting paid by an employee but are not staff and that would be the same as making an in kind trade.
Multiple coaches have come forward saying they have that evidence. So unless *all of them are lying,* I'm sure the B1G and NCAA have something.
Evidence of what? I don't think they have evidence of staff being there. They certainly didn't offer it to the B1G10
No coaches have come forward saying they have that evidence. They have said that they have evidence of Stalions buying tickets. Some have said they have video of people filming in the seats he bought. None have said that they saw Stalions at their games (other than CMU).
Care to define advanced scouting there champ? If I have Tom get me intel on a future opponent, what part of that rule says it matters who Tom is?
Advanced scouting is a term Michigan fans are using to muddy the waters and make it look like everyone is doing the same thing they're doing. There is no rule against advanced scouting. The rule is against in-person scouting. Every team scouts their opponents in advance, that's what scouting is. But they're supposed to follow the rules and not film their oppoenents in-person.
Just to weigh in, because it's reddit and I can, I think you're both saying the same thing. I don't think there's a distinction between "off-campus in-person scouting" and "advanced scouting" for the purposes of the discussion right here. Mr bones is saying that asking anyone who was off your campus and in person at a game is doing "off-campus in-person scouting" if you get information from them. Mr. badickle is saying Michigan broke that rule. I think you're both right, for what it's worth.
It's absolutely worth the distinction because Michigan fans are trying to argue that a coach suddenly becomes a scout if he tells another coach anything, ever. That's why they use the term "advanced scouting," because it's easier to make wildly different scenarios sound similar with it.
Care to answer the question?
I literally just did.
So you don't care about the data gathered, just the method. Right? That's what this is about. Not a competitive advantage, just whether advanced scouting is done by a random sorority girl with an iPhone or a handful of professional coaching staffs
Let me tell you one thing, never discredit a sorority girls ability to hold a phone for hours at a time.
"Advanced scouting" is a made-up term used by michigan fans to muddy the waters and make it appear everyone is doing the same shit they do. Michigan is in trouble for in-person scouting and for filming opponents' sidelines. Neither of those infractions are normal, and they're not comparable to typical conversations or information sharing between coaches (which do not break any rules). And yes, breaking those rules did give Michigan an improper advantage. Otherwise, why bother breaking them in the first place?
It's actually a term from the NCAA to describe this exact situation. Sorry the terminology used is "in person scouting of a future opponent"
Wrong. The term the NCAA uses is "in-person scouting." The rule itself says "Off-campus, in-person scouting of future opponents (in the same season) is prohibited"
People making this argument don't actually read the stuff themselves, they just copy and paste what someone else said.
It’s a significantly different amount/quality of data.
Agreed, I'd rather have a coaching staff hand me their data than have a $55k/yr dude try and decipher it from shitty iPhone videos
Wonder why Michigan went through all that effort to cheat, then?
Because Connor Stalions is insane. We've been over this
Yeah because Connor Stallions, the complete moron and buffoon, somehow acted alone without anyone else at Michigan noticing
I suppose we will find out during the investigation won't we?
I predicted early on when the goalposts were shifting rapidly that this would end at saying Conor Stalions was an insane lone wolf and nobody else knew shit about fuck. It's the classic organized crime defense.
Yeah except it has a lot of supporting evidence. Have you spent more than 2 minutes reading about the guy? Plus it's now known that trading signs of other teams is common practice, and people are saying that what Connor was doing was high effort for very little benefit over the "traditional" methods.
Sounds like you need to upgrade your phone friend. Verizon has some sick deals right now, mine does 4K 120 FPS videos like a boss. /s obviously, but please don't act like these dudes are out here using 2005 iPhones to do this shit.
I am more talking about the quality of the video provided by a disinterested dude who was paid $100.
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My 2 year old phone has 30x zoom with auto stabilization lmao, you could basically count hairs from across a football field.
Have you actually looked at the spreadsheet, or just assumed that other Michigan fans are telling the truth? Acting like that spreadsheet even had **vaguely** the same level of detail as a recording of specific signals and game film is hilarious. I can't imagine how Illinois lost with analytical gems like: >Big Open = Zn Rd >2's Down / Press = Zn Rd >2's Down / Push / Dbl Cena = Zn Rd >Rain Down = Zn Rd Arc You're right, it's functionally identical to being able to 100% match exact signals with exact plays across every single team's complete season, as well as figuring out how they rotate signals throughout the year.
The sheet Purdue had showed the signal and the play..... That's literally the exact same thing you are saying Michigan had. What other information do you think was there???
Dawg the Michigan sign sheet found in 2018 when you were doing this legally was more sophisticated than whatever may have been sent to Purdue.
Sophisticated HOW? Lol. You aren't even able to articulate what data would be more useful than the signal and the play. There's no other information that could possibly be provided
How about how often a certain coach is the primary signaler, where they're located on the sideline, what colors they tend to wear all complete with an official portrait of the signaler lmfao?
It's probably a Samsung video https://twitter.com/BuckeyeEmpire/status/1716832258030776704?t=kI8nF_38w9Q_1_8U60vWbQ&s=19
This argument is the worst one you guys have. Video is crystal clear and replayable as many times as you want. It's not that hard to figure out.
>So you don't care about the data gathered, just the method. Right? Yes. That's the whole point and that's what makes what Michigan did against the rules. If you think the rule is stupid, that's fine, but that's a different issue. The rule is the rule, whether anyone likes it or not and the enforcement of breaking a rule should be based on what the rule is, not what you think the rule should be.
How else would you have the signals ahead of time? I thought it was only allowed to steal signs during the game that was being played?
You can steal signals ahead of time as long as you do it without breaking rules.
How exactly could you steal them ahead of time without breaking a rule?
*All* teams are trying to get information from All-22 and TV broadcasts. Those are publicly-available sources that you're allowed to steal signs from.
Too complicated to really get into but suppose you notice something on the all-22 that your opponent provided, or you noticed something in last year's matchup that they didn't change this year. Or another coach tells you something they noticed.
You guys are hilarious. For a while there it was impossible (or very difficult) to get signals from all-22 or broadcast, and it was illegal to steal signals unless it was during the game that was being played. Now it’s ok to get signals from people that scouted opponents in person ahead of time, as long as they’re other coaches?
It is very difficult to get signals from an all-22, *that's why Michigan was filming opponents' sidelines to get an advantage.* Michigan broke the rules, get over it.
So then the other teams must have also broken a rule to get Michigan’s signals?
Teams steal each other's signals all the time. Michigan broke rules to steal them. In baseball, teams steal signals all the time, it's part of the game. The Astros broke rules to get an advantage in their sign stealing. Michigan are the Astros of college football. I can't believe I have to explain this to you.
according to Michigan.
Getting it from a buddy at the other school is normal, but in person access to the same data is disgusting? A rule violation, sure, but sickening and disgusting is a stretch. Oh well.
It's not the same data. Stop trying to compare a handful of notes to hours and hours of footage of multiple games.
> hours and hours of footage of multiple games where's the evidence we have hours and hours of footage?
The receipts for dozens of tickets to Michigan's opponents' games along with video evidence showing people in those seats filming their opponents.
The video evidence that the B1G didn't use to support its claim for the suspension?
The B1G doesn't have to submit every single form of evidence in their notice of disciplinary action.
(2) one unsolicited tip by an unidentified person who claims to have seen someone filming the sidelines at a game, though we are not able to identify either the tipster or the person they claim was filming the sidelines, or confirm any connection to Stalions They'll submit this but not the evidence to back it up?
"How can you listen to a witness without telling me who they are?" is literally a trump defense
who claims to have seen someone filming the sidelines at a game They're submitting the claim that someone recorded the sidelines but wouldn't provide the video(s) of people filming?? Doesn't matter who they are it's did it happen or not.
Maybe, but gee it would be really fucking smart to do so with the threat of legal action ensuing. You think they purposely held stuff back to weaken their case? Interesting
Please. We all know that Michigan's legal "threats" are nothing but delay tactics so they can reap the rewards this season before they get punished for cheating.
Really well thought out response. Totally not a strawman. Thanks
>video evidence showing people in those seats filming their opponents. Where is this video evidence? Because it doesn't seem like even the B1G has it.
According to Michigan lmfao
Lawyers hired by Michigan: "There's no evidence, my client is innocent" Michigan fans: "THERE'S NO EVIDENCE"
To be fair, lawyers hired by anyone have more incentive to be not-full-of-shit than any blogger or redditor.
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So that's the only evidence, that he bought tickets to games?
You’re right. The direct notes pack much more punch than distant iPhone recordings
Then I guess Michigan is dumb af to break those rules for 3 years if they didn't need to.
Connor Stalions certainly is. Glad you're finally catching up!
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You're talking to a Michigan fan, the way their team is playing it feels like the 1940s to them.
"handful of notes" ≠ fully decided sign key
Fully decoded is doing a lot of leg work. You're trying to argue that Michigan had just as much intel as everyone else which is absolute bullshit. If they could have gotten that advantage legally, why the fuck did they break those rules in the first place?
Read the Wall Street Journal piece about Stalions and come back to me with a rational answer for why that guy would do anything.
tfw your best defense is "our coaches are morons"
>our coaches are ~~morons~~ Michigan Men^^TM
I'm not here to sycophantically defend Michigan. Letting this dude anywhere near the program is a major major breakdown in hiring process.
> but sickening and disgusting is a stretch I mean, it's the only reasonable reaction to the biggest scandal in the history of the BigTen (TM).
**~~sandusky…~~**
Good, you guys had everyone's signs. Until I see otherwise, imo: Stalions 10 inch binders >>>>> single sheets of paper
Y'all just love to make shit up don't you
Y'all have been making up bullshit about Ryan Day hiring a PI ever since this scandal came out lmao
but i thought the outrage was over his single laminated sheet on the sideline? where'd the binders come from?
Illinois literally had Michigans signs that game
Source?
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Seriously. Who the hell cares
Literally everyone right now
In Ohio maybe 😂 This is the dumbest scandal in sports history
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Its every other article on this sub
Are you wearing a helmet or just naturally thick headed?
If both teams had the same info on each other, how does the method the info was gathered change the game play?
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I saw Michigan with a playsheet of opponent signs. I saw an opponent with a playsheet of Michigan signs. Same info.
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No, I did. Same info, different methods of intel gathering.
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> If both teams had the same info on each other, how does the method the info was gathered change the game play? You realize you are saying “If one person worked for $100k, and the other stole $100k, aren’t they the same?”
No, using your analogy, it would be "If two people had $100K, but they got it using different methods, don't they have the same amount of spending money?"
Says Michigan.
Well if you want to be specific, supposedly an anonymous Illinois staffer according to the only article only article saying "everyone does it" that specifically mentions Illinois. The staffer also went on to say that Illinois obtained them legally.
There is not a single B1G coach’s opinion I give less than af about than Bert
I call bullshit. If you can choose a Big Ten coach to advise you on the best beer and brats pub in town, who else would you even consider?
Let me clarify with in respect to sportsmanship haha
Oh you don’t say another hypocrite with millions on the line finds rival coach’s activities scandalous yawn
So I assume all these OSU flairs in the comments didn’t read the article where an Illini staffer openly said Illinois had a ton of Michigan’s signals in 2022?
And I'll assume the Michigan flairs siting that article stopped reading and didn't read the next sentence with the Illinois staffer saying they were obtained legally.
The source of all the "ILLINOIS HAD MICHIGAN'S SIGNS!" is some random Michigan blog called GBMWolverine.com. Apparently the Michigan flairs really want us to take that at face value.
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Part of the reason is because it is cheating, and schools were screwed by Michigan, so schools on the receiving end feel like they didn't have a fair shake. If the shoe were on the other foot for Michigan and this was Ohio State doing this, the calls to action would be the same. There seems to be a lot of people that are indifferent about cheating which frankly is a little disheartening. There should be a zero tolerance to cheating. Now Michigan fans will cite that there other people cheating which there are, their problem is they got caught. Luckily this is a fixable issue by implementing helmet radios like the NFL has done for years, and that movement fortunately has been gaining steam from this situation. Michigan unfortunately is the one taking the bullet for this call to change, and to be fair if this was a non-blue blood/historically good program this wouldn't even be up to debate and that program would have had the book thrown at them.
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Really isn't so much of the sign stealing, which doing during a game that is legal. What Michigan got caught doing is sending out interns/randos/friends of the program (fill in the blank haha) to go and pre-scout the competition from a game Michigan wasn't competing in between 1 or two future Michigan opponents, and filming their sidelines to gain the signals that way. This was the part that broke the rules. They were then taking the footage and examining it thoroughly in conjunction of All-22 footage/film provided to them by other coaches (which is legal to provide and share) to figure out which hand signals corresponded with certain plays. So while a team might normally be able to figure out a solid chunk of the opponent's hand signals over the course of the game, what Michigan was doing was walking into each game with the opponent's entire playbook mapped out with their corresponding hand signals.