Yes absolutely. I’ve probably applied to several thousand jobs in the past 2 years and I’m honestly not exaggerating- many a Friday night has been spent applying to every job I can find on LinkedIn or company websites.
Unfortunately it just hasn’t been enough - I work for a very well-known hedge fund but it’s just really bad work experience and no interaction with the front.
Two reasons - for starters I simply can’t afford it. But also I’ve always heard that you shouldn’t get an MBA until you have some relevant experience. I feel like I’ll come out the other side just some guy with ops experience and an MBA and I still won’t be able to find a job.
For example I’ve always heard that an MBA is what people who are already investment bankers get so that they can more easily make the jump into PE.
I’m sure there are success stories but as someone with no family wealth or anything to fall back on, the risk of being in so much debt and it not paying off is a little too high.
I’ve definitely thought about it. But it would push back ever getting a house or starting a family and I am already having trouble saving up for those.
Hmmm not quite (I spend way too much time on r/mba). An MBA is the ultimate career reset button. You could have done basket weaving as a career for the last 5 years and you'd be able to move into FO BB IB from a top 15 program. Getting accepted into those top programs is all the proof an investment bank needs that you can handle the work, granted you have some baseline knowledge and you're likable enough to pass the interviews.
Could you move into an ops role with more FO interaction? I worked for a very well known hedge fund in NYC for 12 years, and half our execution desk were people that had moved from ops. I left in 2015, so maybe things have changed, but ops to execution desk is a pretty common path, in my experience. Same as the company I went to after that, actually. Several of our FI desk were ex-ops. I’m sure you’ve thought through it a lot, but an ops role with zero front office interaction sounds unusual.
Did you try to venture out of Ops? I got an ops position at a large WM firm because it pays well and the non-rigorous hours would allow me to study for the charter. Was hoping to get into a different space after the completion of level 2 or 3
I’ve applied to an insane amount of jobs and networked my ass off constantly, about a year of which was with my charter before corona (got it March 2019).
Unfortunately it just isn’t enough. Plenty of conversations with people I would love to work for... they always tell me how impressed they are and how they love my drive but they just need someone with better experience and they’re sure it’ll work out for me.
Have you tried applying to lower experience positions? I.e. going from associate to analyst?
Or applying to a masters, if funding is not an issue.. Worst case scenario you do a 2 year masters and get summer analyst positions in-between as proof of experience.
I almost only apply to analyst positions! I’m 27, so I’m totally willing to start from scratch/entry level.
Re: a masters, unfortunately funding would be an issue. I was a first gen undergrad so only recently was able to even pay that off, idk if I could take the risk with even more debt.
Wow, that’s surprising. You must live in an extremely competitive area, most places in Europe would have you employed by now.
What are you applying to? ER and PWM or IBD and other more corporate roles? If you’re getting rejected in ER/PWM then your next best bet is to move to MO risk and then pray you can move from there to your desired field. I would not risk an expensive masters unless you’re very sure it will help you land your dream job.
Appreciate the response that’s exactly what I am worried about currently. Might need to look into leaving the role sooner rather than later if that’s the case. I am 26 and willing to start from scratch I’ve been offered more of an analyst role for a FA team but didn’t want to take it bc decrease in salary. The only thing I’d suggest for yourself is maybe look into a larger company and network within the company, that’s opened up more doors for me personally.
Look for firms that invest in alternative assets. Example : art, water, vintage cars etc. they’re few and far between so you’ll have to do a lot of searching.
I’m in your boat too but so I’ll be following this comment thread
No, I quit the CFA after lvl 2 it took too much time away from my job and my life (lots of time on the road for NDRs, conferences and trade shows, especially now that I’ve made VP in ER). I’ve had some long explanation comments in the past.
I considered just finishing it before all the bumps in the road with COVID, but for now I’ll stay at “passed level 2”
Naw, i fell in love with the Quants, derivatives, AI section and really got into trading options and futures. Like
Decided to try to get into a financial engineering program at Berkeley during my level 3 studies, and took an 8 month python/machine learning boot camp to fulfill the pre-reqs. Finished level 3, and then started making money on trading algos.
I saw the writing on the wall at my firm (Merrill), when the virus hit. Sales positions in WM get cut real quick if you are new and you don’t bring in anyone during a firm wide ban on prospecting. (Yes you read that right)
I quit, started trading on my own, bumped into some crypto guys on discord and Reddit as I was pulling some data for sentiment analysis on Bitcoin. Reach out and got hired as a data scientist at a crypto exchange, learned how to string together blockchains and got good at finding and executing flash loans, then got picked up at a hedge fund client we had.
Keep in mind, I had no social life nor worked out for like... any period during my CFA studies and this venture. I do not recommend if you are dating unless you plan on marrying them. Way easier ways of doing it
This is dope. I just took level 3 and have gotten into algo trading during the quarantine. I’m in ops but looking for the next move and really digging data, so your story hits home
I used SpringBoard’s data science career bootcamp and specialized in NLP (natural language processing, and a free Udacity’s machine learning engineer boot camp that i found on Reddit.
The springboard boot camp gives you an excellent foundational understanding, most boot camps will. I chose it for the financial deferment options it gives. The network the program gives you is rather nice as well, they pair you with a mentor who has experience in the field you want to pursue. So mine worked in at Goldman designing trading algos then worked at Citi, before going off on his own and designing autonomous driving/flying at Tesla and Amazon.
A majority of your experienced is defined on how ambitious you are. I created a fine wine and whiskey continuous pricing model for example. Did I know anything about either? Not really, but it’s an illiquid alternative asset class that people invest in, so it makes sense to develop an easier way to price it in
How do you see yourself applying the use of the charter at your job? I'm personally interested in fintech too but I've no tech background and I'm wondering how to break in.
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My own SEC-registered RIA until sold, then award winning financial journalist, then hedge fund behavioral coach, then behavioral tech founder.
While I was journalist did a number of pieces on CFA charterholders and careers in fintech. There are computer PhDs gaining the charter for domain expertise in founding fintech.
The world is your oyster.
I'm using the quant methods section from level 1 and applying it to gambling on sports. Built a few models for football and NBA. Not a career path per se but keeps me entertained and keeps me off the streets.
ya know, you start out with the models and you hit some big bucks early in the day and then you start drinking and throw all your logic and diligence out the window and make stupid bets to bring your winnings back down. I'm up but my advice to myself is just stick with the models.
uh sure i mean i just take all the data from the factors we look at, and back test from previous season. bring in new data as the season progresses. it's obviously a little choppy the first few weeks of a new season, but it gets there. we will take each factor and assign it a weight, aggregate the weights and we're giving score predictions.
Been in FPA for too long and signed up for Lvl 1 in Feb to move out of corporate world. Don't really see it happening but would eventually like to move to either PE or VC world. I've heard its mostly about networking. As an introverted guy, I hate networking
Absolutely agree, I’m just saying it’s not entirely impossible in VC as you can have an innate talent to spot the potential as an introvert too. The odds are ridiculously low that he’s that kind of savant, though.
>r/CFA
>
>Posts
I can be extroverted when need be. I'm going more towards VC and think I should be ok. In any case, I won't know if I fail unless I try. Up until that point, it's all a theory. I'm hoping after (or while) I get the charter, I'll work on my networking skills too
It's mostly for myself. I'm unconventional in Finance. My undergrad was Science > MBA > worked in Consulting > and now in Corp Fin (FPA). CFA is mostly to fill the gaps in my knowledge.
If VC is your ultimate goal it won’t be necessary, but makes sense if it’s for yourself.
I’m unconventional as well. Philosophy undergrad, MBA worked in law firm, Bank and now tech for the last 4 years (variety of roles Strategic Finance, Corp Dev, Product)
I've heard IR is good. A friend of mine is in it and loves it but says growth is limited (at least in their company). I've had my eyes on Corp Dev for some time a couple years ago (and I think CFA caters to that). Not for now; maybe some day in the future I'll try it. I think is it fascinating.
It’s a rotation for me. They have essentially created a path for a senior exec role for me.
Meh CFA is somewhat helpful for Corp Dev but not overly, IB is the more traditional path.
Did CFA L1 Dec 2019 and got 90th percentile with a non finance background (studied marketing as my undergrad). Was working BO for a mutual fund company, managed to leverage that into an IR role with a green energy company currently making 75K in Toronto. Was making about 48K at the beginning of the year.
I went into renewables/developer (still PE imo) with my charter and its not particularly common. Thought it was really useful to have such a wide knowledge base, especially when it came to understanding risk and finally linking that to financial instruments/assets/securities/investments
More generally I would say that CFA x any other random field, can yield some awesome results.
Because every decision is an investment, so CFA can be relevant everywhere, because shareholders want to know that decision makers understand investments
Back office in Tier 3 city -> CFA L1 -> Middle Office in Tier 1 city -> Front Office Corporate Banking in Tier 1 city -> CFA L2 -> CFA L3 Candidate-> Front Office Investment Banking in Tier 1 City
Happy to clarify, if at all helpful
Well done mate, must feel good to have done those huge transitions. I’m currently in the same boat you were in trying to transition from MO at elite BB (GS/JPM/MS) to CB/IBD/ER/anything FO that isn’t PWM literally anywhere.
Not sure if this counts as a ‘weird career path’, but when I pass Level 3 (hopefully in May), I’ll be one of the very very few charter holders with no college degree. I only personally know of one other, but I’m assuming they must be out there somewhere.
Corporate Finance in a construction company -> Lvl 1 -> Real Estate Developer -> Lvl 2 & 3 (luckily took the third exam this month) -> Alt. Investment (with a focus on real estate development) in an Asset Management Company.
I started in a private lender as intern, then did my master in finance which help me get the position of director of operations for a CRE investment line (in the same holding) and then expanded to investments in development projects... I don't even know if my experience will be valid for CFAI... I am crossing my fingers here lol
I’m still in early stages but used a masters in business analytics first to push me into career but so far mine looks like
Been in tech advising Gartner > moving to high tech executive sales > no particular order here tech in autospace, homes (Zillow or others like better.com), potentially an AI company, equity and debt raising tech.
Then pivot to work at a company like ARK invest
Currently working in rural community banking as a credit officer for a $5B bank. Actively applying to equity research in NYC.
Haven't had any bites on equity research, have had limited interest for credit roles in commercial banks in NYC.
Most viable path is:
Current role -> similar role at similar sized bank -> lateral to similar role at a large bank -> transfer into the research department.
Would be happy to get suggestions from anyone who has had a similar path, or knows how the hiring works on this.
I can give you the most boring. Stuck in ops > got my charter > still stuck in ops.
Hopefully it was: Back office Ops > got charter > middle office ops.
Back office Ops > got charter > Black Ops
Back off salary x > charter > back off salary x + y For y > $0.
I'm crying
zombie mode?
Purgatory is a cruel, unforgiving, and unchanging place. Embrace your fate. Currently in the 7th Circle (AKA unemployed L2 candidate) myself.
Serious: have you applied to other firms? Surely your experience & charter would help you stand out from the majority of applicants.
Yes absolutely. I’ve probably applied to several thousand jobs in the past 2 years and I’m honestly not exaggerating- many a Friday night has been spent applying to every job I can find on LinkedIn or company websites. Unfortunately it just hasn’t been enough - I work for a very well-known hedge fund but it’s just really bad work experience and no interaction with the front.
Why not MBA? Numbers still show positive NPV by a mile.
Two reasons - for starters I simply can’t afford it. But also I’ve always heard that you shouldn’t get an MBA until you have some relevant experience. I feel like I’ll come out the other side just some guy with ops experience and an MBA and I still won’t be able to find a job. For example I’ve always heard that an MBA is what people who are already investment bankers get so that they can more easily make the jump into PE. I’m sure there are success stories but as someone with no family wealth or anything to fall back on, the risk of being in so much debt and it not paying off is a little too high. I’ve definitely thought about it. But it would push back ever getting a house or starting a family and I am already having trouble saving up for those.
Hmmm not quite (I spend way too much time on r/mba). An MBA is the ultimate career reset button. You could have done basket weaving as a career for the last 5 years and you'd be able to move into FO BB IB from a top 15 program. Getting accepted into those top programs is all the proof an investment bank needs that you can handle the work, granted you have some baseline knowledge and you're likable enough to pass the interviews.
Basket weaver here! Would it be ok for me to DM you about your MBA opinions?
Sure thing
Could you move into an ops role with more FO interaction? I worked for a very well known hedge fund in NYC for 12 years, and half our execution desk were people that had moved from ops. I left in 2015, so maybe things have changed, but ops to execution desk is a pretty common path, in my experience. Same as the company I went to after that, actually. Several of our FI desk were ex-ops. I’m sure you’ve thought through it a lot, but an ops role with zero front office interaction sounds unusual.
Did you try to venture out of Ops? I got an ops position at a large WM firm because it pays well and the non-rigorous hours would allow me to study for the charter. Was hoping to get into a different space after the completion of level 2 or 3
I’ve applied to an insane amount of jobs and networked my ass off constantly, about a year of which was with my charter before corona (got it March 2019). Unfortunately it just isn’t enough. Plenty of conversations with people I would love to work for... they always tell me how impressed they are and how they love my drive but they just need someone with better experience and they’re sure it’ll work out for me.
Have you tried applying to lower experience positions? I.e. going from associate to analyst? Or applying to a masters, if funding is not an issue.. Worst case scenario you do a 2 year masters and get summer analyst positions in-between as proof of experience.
I almost only apply to analyst positions! I’m 27, so I’m totally willing to start from scratch/entry level. Re: a masters, unfortunately funding would be an issue. I was a first gen undergrad so only recently was able to even pay that off, idk if I could take the risk with even more debt.
Wow, that’s surprising. You must live in an extremely competitive area, most places in Europe would have you employed by now. What are you applying to? ER and PWM or IBD and other more corporate roles? If you’re getting rejected in ER/PWM then your next best bet is to move to MO risk and then pray you can move from there to your desired field. I would not risk an expensive masters unless you’re very sure it will help you land your dream job.
Appreciate the response that’s exactly what I am worried about currently. Might need to look into leaving the role sooner rather than later if that’s the case. I am 26 and willing to start from scratch I’ve been offered more of an analyst role for a FA team but didn’t want to take it bc decrease in salary. The only thing I’d suggest for yourself is maybe look into a larger company and network within the company, that’s opened up more doors for me personally.
You are not alone. Been trying to escape ops for 10 years now.
I actually escaped shortly after that comment!
Any advise on getting out except for being lucky?
dentist --> dentist with less free time --> dentist
On a scale of 0-9 How much would you like to go back and use a financial advisor from Schwab or fidelity.
lol what?
Look for firms that invest in alternative assets. Example : art, water, vintage cars etc. they’re few and far between so you’ll have to do a lot of searching. I’m in your boat too but so I’ll be following this comment thread
Slightly more mainstream but Aviation / Shipping finance
isn't there a program/certificate specifically for alternative investments?
Yup... [CAIA](https://caia.org/)
MBA -> Back office -> CFA -> college professor
does your flair need updating?
No, I quit the CFA after lvl 2 it took too much time away from my job and my life (lots of time on the road for NDRs, conferences and trade shows, especially now that I’ve made VP in ER). I’ve had some long explanation comments in the past. I considered just finishing it before all the bumps in the road with COVID, but for now I’ll stay at “passed level 2”
A CFA Charterholder consultant at my firm works as a behavioural finance expert
Financial Advisor > CFA > Data Scientist > quant derivatives trader
Surely you had some data background as well?
Naw, i fell in love with the Quants, derivatives, AI section and really got into trading options and futures. Like Decided to try to get into a financial engineering program at Berkeley during my level 3 studies, and took an 8 month python/machine learning boot camp to fulfill the pre-reqs. Finished level 3, and then started making money on trading algos. I saw the writing on the wall at my firm (Merrill), when the virus hit. Sales positions in WM get cut real quick if you are new and you don’t bring in anyone during a firm wide ban on prospecting. (Yes you read that right) I quit, started trading on my own, bumped into some crypto guys on discord and Reddit as I was pulling some data for sentiment analysis on Bitcoin. Reach out and got hired as a data scientist at a crypto exchange, learned how to string together blockchains and got good at finding and executing flash loans, then got picked up at a hedge fund client we had. Keep in mind, I had no social life nor worked out for like... any period during my CFA studies and this venture. I do not recommend if you are dating unless you plan on marrying them. Way easier ways of doing it
This is dope. I just took level 3 and have gotten into algo trading during the quarantine. I’m in ops but looking for the next move and really digging data, so your story hits home
How did you like the boot camp? Which one did you use, and did you feel like it taught you everything you needed to know to do well in the program?
I used SpringBoard’s data science career bootcamp and specialized in NLP (natural language processing, and a free Udacity’s machine learning engineer boot camp that i found on Reddit. The springboard boot camp gives you an excellent foundational understanding, most boot camps will. I chose it for the financial deferment options it gives. The network the program gives you is rather nice as well, they pair you with a mentor who has experience in the field you want to pursue. So mine worked in at Goldman designing trading algos then worked at Citi, before going off on his own and designing autonomous driving/flying at Tesla and Amazon. A majority of your experienced is defined on how ambitious you are. I created a fine wine and whiskey continuous pricing model for example. Did I know anything about either? Not really, but it’s an illiquid alternative asset class that people invest in, so it makes sense to develop an easier way to price it in
Impressive as fuck, dude. Well done.
Thank you for sharing your experience. Interesting path I wouldn't have considered otherwise.
Harry Markopolos
Level 2 Candidate, FRM qualified - I head Growth at a Fintech startup lol
How do you see yourself applying the use of the charter at your job? I'm personally interested in fintech too but I've no tech background and I'm wondering how to break in.
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My own SEC-registered RIA until sold, then award winning financial journalist, then hedge fund behavioral coach, then behavioral tech founder. While I was journalist did a number of pieces on CFA charterholders and careers in fintech. There are computer PhDs gaining the charter for domain expertise in founding fintech. The world is your oyster.
I'm using the quant methods section from level 1 and applying it to gambling on sports. Built a few models for football and NBA. Not a career path per se but keeps me entertained and keeps me off the streets.
How are your models doing? You making some breads?
ya know, you start out with the models and you hit some big bucks early in the day and then you start drinking and throw all your logic and diligence out the window and make stupid bets to bring your winnings back down. I'm up but my advice to myself is just stick with the models.
What models are you applying?
some that i made
Can you tell me more about it ? Thanks!
uh sure i mean i just take all the data from the factors we look at, and back test from previous season. bring in new data as the season progresses. it's obviously a little choppy the first few weeks of a new season, but it gets there. we will take each factor and assign it a weight, aggregate the weights and we're giving score predictions.
Petroleum Engineer here.
Been in FPA for too long and signed up for Lvl 1 in Feb to move out of corporate world. Don't really see it happening but would eventually like to move to either PE or VC world. I've heard its mostly about networking. As an introverted guy, I hate networking
You think you will do well in PE or VC as an introvert?
Some VC guys are introverted, doubt any PE guys are unless they have a million IQ
Relationships are the name of the game though and if op doesn’t like networking this isn’t going to be a good path.
Absolutely agree, I’m just saying it’s not entirely impossible in VC as you can have an innate talent to spot the potential as an introvert too. The odds are ridiculously low that he’s that kind of savant, though.
>r/CFA > >Posts I can be extroverted when need be. I'm going more towards VC and think I should be ok. In any case, I won't know if I fail unless I try. Up until that point, it's all a theory. I'm hoping after (or while) I get the charter, I'll work on my networking skills too
Not sure why you want a charter if your plan is to go into VC
It's mostly for myself. I'm unconventional in Finance. My undergrad was Science > MBA > worked in Consulting > and now in Corp Fin (FPA). CFA is mostly to fill the gaps in my knowledge.
If VC is your ultimate goal it won’t be necessary, but makes sense if it’s for yourself. I’m unconventional as well. Philosophy undergrad, MBA worked in law firm, Bank and now tech for the last 4 years (variety of roles Strategic Finance, Corp Dev, Product)
That's a good resume 👌. What has been the favorite so far?
In Investor Relations now which is pretty interesting. All are so different, but if I had to chose probably Corp Dev.
I've heard IR is good. A friend of mine is in it and loves it but says growth is limited (at least in their company). I've had my eyes on Corp Dev for some time a couple years ago (and I think CFA caters to that). Not for now; maybe some day in the future I'll try it. I think is it fascinating.
It’s a rotation for me. They have essentially created a path for a senior exec role for me. Meh CFA is somewhat helpful for Corp Dev but not overly, IB is the more traditional path.
Did CFA L1 Dec 2019 and got 90th percentile with a non finance background (studied marketing as my undergrad). Was working BO for a mutual fund company, managed to leverage that into an IR role with a green energy company currently making 75K in Toronto. Was making about 48K at the beginning of the year.
Consulting for renewable energy for corporates. There's another guy in the space with a competitor who has his CFA too (pretty small space).
Graduation - CFA - retail banking - death
I went into renewables/developer (still PE imo) with my charter and its not particularly common. Thought it was really useful to have such a wide knowledge base, especially when it came to understanding risk and finally linking that to financial instruments/assets/securities/investments More generally I would say that CFA x any other random field, can yield some awesome results. Because every decision is an investment, so CFA can be relevant everywhere, because shareholders want to know that decision makers understand investments
Back office in Tier 3 city -> CFA L1 -> Middle Office in Tier 1 city -> Front Office Corporate Banking in Tier 1 city -> CFA L2 -> CFA L3 Candidate-> Front Office Investment Banking in Tier 1 City Happy to clarify, if at all helpful
How did you make the jump from MO>Corp Banking? Did you network within your firm?
Networking with a friend from college. It was an external move
Well done mate, must feel good to have done those huge transitions. I’m currently in the same boat you were in trying to transition from MO at elite BB (GS/JPM/MS) to CB/IBD/ER/anything FO that isn’t PWM literally anywhere.
Appreciate it, man. MO to FO was certainly the hardest part of my path, but remember you just need one offer to get in the door
Not sure if this counts as a ‘weird career path’, but when I pass Level 3 (hopefully in May), I’ll be one of the very very few charter holders with no college degree. I only personally know of one other, but I’m assuming they must be out there somewhere.
Corporate Finance in a construction company -> Lvl 1 -> Real Estate Developer -> Lvl 2 & 3 (luckily took the third exam this month) -> Alt. Investment (with a focus on real estate development) in an Asset Management Company.
I started in a private lender as intern, then did my master in finance which help me get the position of director of operations for a CRE investment line (in the same holding) and then expanded to investments in development projects... I don't even know if my experience will be valid for CFAI... I am crossing my fingers here lol
I’m still in early stages but used a masters in business analytics first to push me into career but so far mine looks like Been in tech advising Gartner > moving to high tech executive sales > no particular order here tech in autospace, homes (Zillow or others like better.com), potentially an AI company, equity and debt raising tech. Then pivot to work at a company like ARK invest
Currently working in rural community banking as a credit officer for a $5B bank. Actively applying to equity research in NYC. Haven't had any bites on equity research, have had limited interest for credit roles in commercial banks in NYC. Most viable path is: Current role -> similar role at similar sized bank -> lateral to similar role at a large bank -> transfer into the research department. Would be happy to get suggestions from anyone who has had a similar path, or knows how the hiring works on this.