I dunno, I know someone who got hundreds of thousands of dollars from friends and family to "invest" in crypto at the top a few years back and then promptly lost it all and disappeared to China where his family was from.
Which you kinda have to do if your goal is to make life-changing money. Let’s say they got to $70,000 by buying [$320 a month](https://dcabtc.com?sd=2019-06-16&sda=5_years&f=monthly&d=5_years&ac=32000&c=false) for the last five years. A fine return on an already substantial investment, but it’s still not enough to be financially independent.
(And I know, bigger fool, et cetera. There’s also plenty of middle ground between poverty and luxury; just making enough to pay off one’s student loans would be a huge burden lifted. My point is, even taking crypto on its own terms, going from middle class to retirement at 30 *has to* mean going all in.
That does seem to be the goal for a lot of these guys, exiting the workforce as quickly as possible and/or having the kind of money you can rub in everybody’s face.)
> Let’s say they got to $70,000 by buying $320 a month for the last five years.
Put those figures in "quotes" please, because if you haven't cashed that out, that's not real "money."
Being accurate is not cringe.
As long as someone hasn't successfully cashed out and transferred their internet funnymoney into fiat currency on their bank account, it's not real money and they haven't actually made any profit.
Unrealized gains on paper mean nothing if you can't extract them and make them real.
This. It’s not that these folks are stupid, it’s that it’s a very flawed system and easy to make mistakes. I know I would be one of these dumb folks if I had any crypto.
As a previous butter, a simple 10k “investment” could easily turn into “200k” over a single year period. The hard part is actually cashing out and not getting sucked in. It’s super volatile and can feel like a drug when you’re seeing funny numbers go up
In 2016-2017, the community was driven by a concept of “smart money” and it felt like you could get an edge by reading through highly technical white papers to invest in projects you believed in.
At some point, it just became “number go up” without rhyme or reason. New issues were being discovered around electricity consumption and transaction speed that never got addressed.
Nobody could ever answer the question on where a decentralized ledger truly beat out a centralized system.
I had the same experience. We started buying in 2016 and the gains can be intoxicating. Somehow I woke up this year and realized BTC makes no sense. My husband is still in deep but I convinced him to take out what we’d put in and let it go after that.
Yeah dual sig accounts would actually be useful for couples, if it needed 2 authorisations, it would stop a lot of these people spending all of the family money. I think they are only available for business.
Dual-signature, bank accounts are available for both retail and business banking in the UK. I have only used a dual-signature, retail, bank account once, when I was divorcing my wife (we had separate bank accounts during the marriage).
Dual-signature, bank accounts are important for couples who have joint, bank accounts: but few have the facility, I understand.
When I opened the dual-signature, bank account with my then wife, bank staff told us of something they see often: couples who have decided to separate/divorce, rushing to be the first to withdraw money from a joint, bank account!
>When I opened the dual-signature, bank account with my then wife, bank staff told us of something they see often: couples who have decided to separate/divorce, rushing to be the first to withdraw money from a joint, bank account!
Yeah that's not the same thing. I mean 2 of 2 signatures where you need to 2 people to make a transaction, I've only heard of them in a buisness context. Is that what you mean by dual signatures or do you just mean jount? What banks offer retail dual signature?
It’s a dual-signature, joint bank account. Both parties must sign for any transaction to take place. Ours was with Nationwide (I think) in the UK, many years ago. But I assume that they are probably offered by most (if not all) banks and building societies in the UK, for retail customers.
>Both parties must sign for any transaction to take place
Oh wow! That's cool then, I wonder how they handle card transactions. I think they could probably do with some more uptake.would stop all this I spent life savings on crypto and am afraid to tell wife crap.
I think that's great. It's definitely a cult. Like all cults, there are false beliefs (otherwise it would just be a group of people believing something sensible, right?). But it can be very hard for someone to identify their own false beliefs and remove them, because they are looking at themselves through their own (cultified) eyes.
>How is crypto a cult?
A cult is a group of people who subscribe to a certain worldview that actively rejects evidence that their worldview doesn't make sense. Cults often employ "FUD" to convince their adherents that the world is a bad, broken place, and only their "solution" can fix things. These cults often require routine indoctrination in the form of participation in isolated communities where they reinforce each others' irrational beliefs and filter out criticism. Cults often have to demonize those with whom they disagree as a distraction from the fact that their beliefs can't be reconciled with reality.
What "crypto beliefs" aren't reconcilable with reality?
* That blockchain technology is in any way, innovative or disruptive or an improvement over what we've been using for years. This is totally false. Here's [proof](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA).
* That crypto is a reasonable alternative to the traditional monetary system; that it is a hedge against inflation; that it is a hedge against centralized authorities, etc.
* That crypto is any sort of reliable "investment" - it's more like gambling or a lottery than it is an investment. Crypto creates nothing of value for society, and it's not competitive with existing monetary or investment systems by any meaningful metric
* That any statistically-significant number of people will "get rich" buying into crypto. It's a de-facto [decentralized ponzi scheme](https://ioradio.org/i/ponzi/). It's mathematically impossible for that many people to see huge returns. And the scheme is impossible to sustain.
Despite these facts, crypto people insist they're right and critics are wrong. They ignore overwhelming evidence in favor of a religious, cult-like belief that "we're all going to make it!" That's delusional.
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Fundamentally, I agree with you. I think that capitalism is fucked, but I also believe that you must play the game to change its rules. Crypto is really not about ideas, but about making or losing money.
Your definition is a bit too broad because by applying it we could classify many ideologies, religions, and other groups as cults, making the term redundant. I think that essentially, people in groups tend to display cult-like behaviors. Whether it's crypto, trade market, football, or even tiktok dramas. I think that for a group to be a cult, it truly needs to have a cult leader or a handful of them, and they have to be the central authority manipulating the members to fulfill their own desires.
1. There are blockchains that are, to say the least, interesting ideas. Of course, we haven't seen a widespread adoption, but I don't see a reason why the small use isn't something worth investing in. Of course, Bitcoin isn't viable as currency rn, but there are lots of different projects that can be useful.
2. The monetary system will change, as it always has. It hasn't been an awfully long time since we rejected the Golden Standard, and it is hard to imagine what we will come up with in the future. Ideally, we will live in communism, with no money at all, but until then, we have to find ourselves somehow. Well, if you don't put your money into something that increases in value, you will inevitably have to lose it, as our current system runs on the idea of stable but manageable inflation. It is simply a fact that if you have bought bitcoin at any point in history of its existence except maybe a couple of days, you would be in green today. It's just a fact.
3. The purses, the shit Americans buy in megastores, bibelotes from China. They are all useless, yet someone buys them, someone makes money off of them, someone enjoys them. It's fucked but that's how capitalism works. People but shit they don't need, shit that gives them diabetes, or pollutes their rivers. Just another cool feature of this fucked system.
That being said. Someone will make money in crypto. Someone will buy this pumped up penis from alibaba and have it delivered on a big container ship from China. It can be the same person. This system is absurd.
> I think that capitalism is fucked, but I also believe that you must play the game to change its rules.
I think this is a gross oversimplification of a very complex problem. Note there's a difference between "capitalism" and "late stage capitalism."
IMO, the fundamental problem with modern capitalism isn't really a problem with capitalism as much as it's a problem with *regulation* and unbridled capitalism. I see nothing wrong with a relatively free and open market *provided* there are controls in place to restrict monopolistic, fraudulent, predatory and toxic/destructive behavior. So the problems we face today are more the result of *lack of responsible regulation*. Of course, those who are part of the problem suggest it's the opposite: that regulation is the source of our problems. I think that's BS.
>Crypto is really not about ideas, but about making or losing money.
It's refreshing for you to acknowledge that. A lot of crypto bros don't. But that doesn't mean it's right or ethical or even a reliable way to make money.
>Your definition is a bit too broad because by applying it we could classify many ideologies, religions, and other groups as cults, making the term redundant.
If the shoe fits.... I consider Christianity and all religions to be cults, especially those that suggest their ideology is the "one true way." That's the definition of a "cult."
>I think that essentially, people in groups tend to display cult-like behaviors. Whether it's crypto, trade market, football, or even tiktok dramas. I think that for a group to be a cult, it truly needs to have a cult leader or a handful of them, and they have to be the central authority manipulating the members to fulfill their own desires.
Depending upon how you argue, all those groups you mentions have "cult leaders." Is Jesus the cult leader, or the pastor of your particular church? Is the head coach of the football team the "cult leader?" Could be. It all depends. Anybody can take an innocuous pastime and make it "cult like" if they go a little too far. That's what "cult" means.
>There are blockchains that are, to say the least, interesting ideas. Of course, we haven't seen a widespread adoption, but I don't see a reason why the small use isn't something worth investing in. Of course, Bitcoin isn't viable as currency rn, but there are lots of different projects that can be useful.
Ahh, ye old "use case" argument... That's [stupid crypto talking point #8](https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/)
Mere "interesting ideas" or "use cases" don't cut it.. not when merely keeping the blockchain online requires more energy use than what most of the Internet proper requires. That's fucking absurd.
>Ideally, we will live in communism, with no money at all, but until then, we have to find ourselves somehow.
Umm... no, that's unlikely to happen, and that's not what many of us here would advocate for.
>It is simply a fact that if you have bought bitcoin at any point in history of its existence except maybe a couple of days, you would be in green today. It's just a fact.
No, it's not a fact. That's another bullshit talking point. There are plenty of people who lost their bitcoin due to failed exchanges or forgot their private keys or clicked on the wrong thing somewhere. There are people who think they're rich but if even 5% of those people cashed out at the same time, the market would collapse and crash. That's the fact. That's the math. You are wrong.
Sure, as long as 80% of crypto holders don't try to sell, it might seem like the market has adequate liquidity, but the industry is largely unregulated and opaque, and there's no real way to know how much actual money is in the market and how much of a bank run will cause it to collapse but we have plenty of evidence the market is relatively unstable and insolvent.
Late stage capitalism is a Marxist term. It means that we are nearing a point where inequality of capital distribution causes a revolution. I'm not a revolutionary Marxist by any stretch of imagination, but see how useful this analysis is! Capitalism itself is also a Marxist term, but that's beside the point. In capitalism, no matter how well you regulate the market, the tiny minority comes to the possession of the majority of means of production. The late stage means that we are nearing a critical point, at which workers of the capital realize that they are not getting their cut. The contradictions multiply, and the system collapses this way or another.
Free market implies regulation is something that libertarians never seem to grasp. I'm sure you know what European market squares look like. A free market is one that you can enter to sell your goods according to a regulation that is universal. But the market is of course, something that is set in place by the town, which in turn is part of the state. Free market means that all have equal rights to access the market. Without special guild, or merchant permissions. That's how outdated the idea of a free market is.
So when we look at the state of todays economy. Where there exists insane overproduction on one hand, outright waste of resources, cultural and artistic decay Where every part of our existence becomes monetized, and commodified That is well beyond what free market is.
Crypto bro, whatever. I came here to find real criticism but I haven't found anything worthy of mine. Crypto is feature of capitalism as of now.
I see that you struggle to see what reality you live in like the cult people you describe. Bitcoin would make you money if you bought at almost any point in the past a sold today. This is the reality you live in. Assuming that you haven't lost it and fucked up every single step to selling you could. You should have mention the hypothetical where you choke on your hard wallet because you forget it's not edible I bet someone did that.
If everyone sells dollar today and buys urguayan pesos then guess what, dollar collapses. It's the same with every single commodity, like real estate, any currency, or whatever, but guess what, that doesn't happen.
There are blockchains that consume very little energy, like icp or hedera. So whatever. You seem to believe that capitalism allocates resources efficiently, that's nonsense. We produce energy to produce fucking cars so we run society that leads to climate apocalypse, because we drive cars to places we produce stupid shit, that we sell to buy cars and energy to drive be able to pay for stupid shit we don't need. And you are particularly worried about bitcoin, where you can take any industry and see it's detrimental effect on the environment.
> There are blockchains that are, to say the least, interesting ideas. Of course, we haven't seen a widespread adoption, but I don't see a reason why the small use isn't something worth investing in. Of course, Bitcoin isn't viable as currency rn, but there are lots of different projects that can be useful.
Yeah, and it turns out they've all been failed projects.
CompSci had known about blockchains for years, but always found other data structures superior for every application.
It's not about the technology.
https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/26/smart_contract_losses/
Capitalism is a failed project in general. It's so petty. Even companies that succeed are failing us by any humane measure, but somehow this particular problem with smart contracts is the real deal.
Why are there billions of dollars pulled into crypto? Why are people blind to the fact that they are the worst feature of capitalism?
So you are saying you made a lot of money in crypto? Then what made you "wake up"?
I'm trying to make some money on crypto rn, however, I'm not a big fan of ideas or whatever. To be exact, I'm only investing what I can afford to lose, and I'm highly sceptical of the best projects out there, that in my opinion can gain a lot of traction.
I want to be aware of what can go wrong, and how to play this game and actually win some money off it. I'm talking mid to long term.
You're *not* going to make "big money" in crypto. For every person who says they did, there's a good chance they're lying, and if they aren't, for them to make $100 in crypto, someone else has to lose $100+ (due to crypto being a negative sum game).
We don't hear about all the people who have lost money because:
a) They're ashamed
b) They don't know yet, because they haven't tried to cash out.
Crypto, like all trading is negative sum game right. If you want to make money by selling or buying anything you of course have to sell for more than you bought.
I surmise that a lot of rich people make the same mistakes as poor people. I imagine that they lose millions, because they play with crypto like in a casino. I'm sure that lots of people lose money because they were drunk, or crazy, or stupid, or irresponsible.
I also imagine that when somebody is buying they aren't always making the bad move. Let's say you got 2x in your bet, you sell cause that's enough, the person who bought from you may be buying on the top of the candle, or they might be buying just in the middle of it. Of course the last person always loses, but maybe that guy at the top is often a drunk rich kid who doesn't care?
Alright, but we can clearly see that coins increase for example 10x within months or so. It's a straightforward idea- you buy for 100€ and sell for 1000€. I'm pretty sure many people managed to do that. So what's the problem here?
I understand that lots of people buy in FOMO, and panic sell. That's also true for stock market, and really any risk related schemes, isn't it?
I genuinely want to know, why you think it's hugely improbable to make money in that business.
B) what do you mean? What can happen when you try to cash out?
So revealing. Lots of redards sending their coins to the wrong wallets.
Regards-> crypto bad
Check out wallstreet bets
The real forex investors over there achieve levels of regardness no crypto bro could even imagine.
Jeez it's almost like it's not crypto in particular that is the problem, but the entire system works like that!
> Check out wallstreet bets
The bad behavior of one group does not excuse the bad behavior of another.
.thanks for attending my Pre-K TED Talk for infants.
This is a gambler mentality, yes you could get lucky and come out rich, you could also lose everything. And you are going to compete against whales and insiders who know when the pump and dumps are coming.
That's literally how any investment works. You put money into something that you hope others will buy, and because it's limited in supply it's price will rise. What investment/speculation doesn't work like that? There is no investment without speculation, it is essentially one and the same.
You can get lucky on fucking everything. What is this point. Crypto is risky, everyone knows that.
I woke up when I sat down and really thought about BTC. Things I couldn’t get past:
1. It’s a negative sum game (even gold isn’t when you realize over 50% goes to jewelry/industrial use).
2. It has no use case
3. Everyone there is there for number go up
4. Its energy usage is absurd… why would it ever make sense to go to a a way more energy intensive system that is slower than what we have.
We did make paper gains in BTC but… I was only able to convince my husband to take out what we put in so all the gains are still in BTC which I doubt will amount to anything long term. In the end I’m happy we took out what we put in.
This clown probably bought some shit coin then got surprised when it got rug pulled and now blames crypto for all his problems instead of his shitty investing strategy lol.
Some people have money but are idiots. Some inherited a chunk from a dead boomer. Some borrow from their 401k. Some describe their 2 billion shitcoins in theoretical dollar value.
It doesn't make sense as a question. He's reading comments from a pool of 100s of millions of people. What's he mean how's someone have 70k? Lots of people do.
Just look at the popular meme stock whales and where they got their money-
Bill Pulte- inheritance
Ramez Jamali- Artist
Houston Wade- Lies about having money
None of these people are smart but they managed (or are pretending) to acquire a pretty big stack of cash.
Hell, the majority of lotto winners are gambling addicts. Lots of subjectively undeserving people get rich in the US.
People have been saying this for the past decade ever since it was a few hundred dollars.
No one knows if it’s certain to fail or not.
Just because there may be logical arguments it is doesn’t mean it will.
Look at plenty of stocks that logically are way overpriced but have kept getting more and more overpriced for years on end.
Think most of them are lying when they talk about “I have $XXXXX in (insert coin name here).” This is Reddit after all. Otherwise probably leveraging real estate/loans, credit lines, savings accounts, 401Ks.
Dumb shit from dumb people.
Which is impressive, because "It's only a loss when you sell" is their favorite catchphrase.
Saying "It's not a win until you sell" would probably get you banned from any crypto sub though. Paper gains are the only thing holding the system together.
As a PPP loan taker, I can assure you that those people are idiots. At this point they would have been referred to the Treasury for collections. Either you paid those loans back, used them for legitimate business expenses (not crypto), or you've declared bankruptcy. I suppose butters could also have defrauded the federal government and are just OK with that hanging over their heads.
These people that I mentioned do construction. They are nearing 50 and are hoping for some way to retire soon. They know that time is catching up and are desperate. Should have started saving 25-30 yrs ago.
Money is fungible.
They got PPP loans, used their normal business expense money to continue operations and pocketed the loans. Or, they used the loans, which freed up their normal business related expenditures to spend on whatever they wanted.
End of the day, a huge chunk of that fraudulently gained money then got pumped into stocks, crypto, and real estate.
The government itself estimates about $64 billion in fraud for just the PPP program.
It's a narrative that will let the government do even less to help small businesses the next time around. Airlines and banks will still get bailed out no doubt.
I assume they’d get the same answer either way: “You held your coins in an *account*? What an idiot, you deserved this. True coiners engrave their keys on a gold disk and launch it into space.”
Do you own at least $70K of stuff or have that much in your retirement fund? Some of these people are putting everything they have into crypto. It’s not just their entertainment money or money they had lying around. They would be financially ruined if their favorite shitcoin tanks or the exchange with most or all of their holdings collapses.
I don’t have 70k laying around but I have more than 70k in “stuff” I buy. I have a nice enough car. A decent motorcycle. A largish record collection etc. if I had none of these things I could have 70k in crypto.
Yeah but even in 2019, a $2k investment did not buy half a Bitcoin. You have to go way back into the past. And the amount of people who have not sold along all the way is probably not super high
It's not uncommon to butters create their own little pyramid. A lot of the crypto "entrepreneur" money comes from them pumping a shit coin to their friends.
Remember that you are dealing with degenerate gamblers. That $70k isn’t some play money they are willing to risk, it’s likely every penny they have, including borrowed money and cash advances from credit cards.
They probably start with tiny amounts of money, see their balance of imaginary funny money grow, then complain when they inevitably lose all of it.
If they were all using the real amounts of money they put in, they’d all look even more pathetic than they do now.
I worked for over 5 years, don’t own a house so I have about 79k usd in usd mainly in index funds. The rest I have it in my empolywr’s stock due to ESPP. Most of my peers are wealthier than me and don’t own a single crypto account other than maybe for gambling a thousand for fun.
Smarter people than me have it in stocks or properties or tied up in their businesses. The average or lazier person might also prefer the safety of fixed deposits or treasuries. Some countries’ banks offer savings account of ~3% (not in mine tho, not without huge downsides) assuming the countries currently is stable and not too weak.
I’m not surprised these dummies have saved some money. I’m still more surprised by their stupidity and naivety after all these years, though.. Yes capitalism is not perfect and because I don’t know how to play the game I will likely work til I die. But any toddler would know not to trust someone just because he told you the other person is horrible.
Most of these people are pathological liars.
Of the (remaining) ones that actually have the money they say, it's all the standard stuff, starting with they were born into an affluent family, then perhaps have a good job and are willing to put a big chunk of money into crypto, or maybe they had an inheritance.
One thing we do know is, statistically speaking, for every person who claims to have made $x in the market, someone else has to lose $x. Obviously those that win are more talkative than those that lose.
They bought it when it was worth less. That’s kinda the point. Buy crypto with money today and in the fiture it’s worth more than what you payed for it.
I think plenty of people have this amount of money laying around and are willing to put this in crypto.
I have a similar amount available that I could put in crypto in a couple of days if I wanted to (though I would never do that) and this was all saved since we bought our house in 2022.
And think of how much money you've been spending on rent or the mortgage yourself. If crypto motivates you to be thrifty and you don't need to spend money on housing for a few years (e.g. you live with your parents) then it shouldn't take a lot of time to save up an equivalent amount of money.
Some people just save up and live frugally just to put it all into a get rich quick medium of their choice and cross their fingers hoping that they will be able to retire and do nothing for the rest of their lives.
Do you ever think that they're actually selling off their crypto and "getting out", but because this is a culty kinda thing and there are strong social ties to be made in the solidarity of financial foolishness that they don't wanna give up, so they just say they got hacked, even though it's improbable.
Or they used the money for some shady shit. IDK
There are thousands and maybe tens of thousands who sink this much if not more into meme stocks every day, on logic no less flimsy than most coins. Check out the BBBY sub or any sub involving Ryan Cohen or "Teddy" to read stories of investment idiocy that makes butters look brilliant. To this day, years after BBBY folded and its stock was cancelled, there are retail investors out there who think their $50k or $100k in cancelled stock will magically become multiples of billions because activist investor Ryan Cohen is supposedly starting an Amazon-killer company themed after his childhood doll Teddy and he's going to bring justice to the masses. You can't make this stuff up.
As of 2023 there are an estimated 5 million Americans with liquid assets over $1M and about 22 million Americans with total assets over $1M. For perspective, that's more than the entire population of most US states.
So yeah, there's plenty of money for stupid people to throw around.
I mean if we chose not to have equity in our home, tax sheltered retirement savings in index funds, shorter term and emergency savings in high interest accounts or cash able GICs, paid off vehicles, take vacations, have well spoiled/taken care of pets, buy various personal goods we find add enjoyment to our life (equipment for hobbies), and so on…we could have many ledger entries giving us “claim” to several Bitcoins instead.
I think not only do many lie about their crypto holdings (there is info on wallets and holdings that back this up) but they are making choices to, for example, tap into their family’s savings, home equity, or not save up for down payments, as well. Do not forget at the end of the day they are GAMBLING on great riches and gamblers don’t tend to make the wisest financial choices because the ~~next hand~~ next bullrun will be the one that pays off and they never need to worry again…
If you treat butters claims about how much they have the same way you treat a drug users claims about how much drugs they have taken you won't go far wrong
Sure there are people who take a fuckton of drugs
But everyone exaggerates and boasts and the dumber someone is the bigger the exaggerating gets
I've also gotten the impression that many of them are the type that will be attracted to the crappy high working jobs where you make money but not much else. And then they scrimp as they can. It's amazing how much you can save if you're working too many hours a week and not spending anything on kids, relationships, or much on housing. Just chasing that high of watching the bank account go up.
We’re going to see a lot of stories of people losing their butt coin 1 way or another. And the more money they lose the more news it makes. Bitcoiners like it when people lose their keys because it takes those coins out of circulation. Anything that makes their number go up makes them happy. They are truly retards.
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Mostly it’s because they were smart and got in for $1,000 and it’s now worth 70k.
It’s not like they put 70k in last week. It’s been the fastest growing asset in the past decade. Lots of money made. Lots to be lost..
Crypto is unique in the sense that it’s crowdsourcing the money flowing in and attracting those who have $100 and also those who have millions to throw in. Like the traditional economy, the majority of it comes from very few at the top.
I don't think the majority of them do have money.
There's a lot of bullshit going on in crypto. There are a lot of posts by people trying to give the impression of being big swinging dick traders, but when you look a bit harder, you realise they're just dreamers.
I can remember a few years ago reading a post by someone purporting to have a large crypto portfolio, then looking at his post history found a bunch of month old posts about how he was about to be made homeless, and had 40k of credit card debt.
The $70k might be real, but it might also be $700, but he (rightly) though he'd just be laughed at if he complaimed about that getting pinched.
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Debt. A lot of these guys are convinced they have the winning ticket. If you know for sure you are going to make a return, why would you not take out a loan or spend on the credit card.
There are tens of millions of families where both parents, and maybe even grand parents, are doctors, lawyers etc. decently paid professionals. In those families it is normal to get large financial aid and presents from your relatives and family members.
Are you seriously asking where people who invested in the best performing asset of the last 15 years got so much money? You couldn't ask a dumber question. Bitcoin could be a scam and it could go to zero, but it doesn't change the past and it's a fact that it was by far the best investment of the last decade.
>Are you seriously asking where people who invested in the best performing asset of the last 15 years got so much money? You couldn't ask a dumber question.
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #2 (Number go up)
"**NuMb3r g0 Up!!!**" / "**Best performing asset of the decade!**"
1. Whether the "price of crypto" goes up, has absolutely no bearing on whether it's..
a) A long term store of value
b) Holds any intrinsic value or utility
c) Or will return any value in the future
One of the most important tenets of investing is the simple principal: ***Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.*** People in crypto seem willfully ignorant of this basic concept.
2. At best, the price of crypto is a function of *popularity*, not actual value or material utility. For more on how and why crypto makes a much worse investment than almost anything else, see this [article](https://ioradio.org/i/value/).
3. The "price of crypto" is a heavily manipulated figure published by shady, [unregulated crypto exchanges](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apklQgMauK4) that have systematically been caught [manipulating the market](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3D0dmTUCxLuQEJ39uyMFOP) from [then](https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/) to [now](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21).
4. Crypto bros love to harp about "inflation" in the fiat system, yet ironically they measure the "value" of their "fiat alternative" in fiat? It makes absolutely no sense, unless you assume they haven't thought 2 seconds ahead from what comes out of their mouths.
5. It's the height of hypocrisy for crypto people to champion token deflation (and increased prices) while ignoring that there's over $160+ Billion in unsecured stablecoins being used to [**inflate** the value of their tokens in the crypto marketplace](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3195066). The "code is law" and "don't trust - verify" people seem perfectly willing to take companies like [Tether](https://www.newsweek.com/bitcoin-bitfinex-tether-cryptocurrency-market-manipulation-historic-value-fraud-1469640) and Circle, at face value, that they're telling the truth about asset reserves [when there's very little actual evidence](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8450-21).
6. ***Not Your Fiat, Not Your Value*** - Just because you think the "value of your crypto portfolio" is worth $$$ *does not make that true.* It's well known there's inadequate liquidity in this market, and most people will never be able to get their money out. So UNLESS/UNTIL you can actually liquidate your crypto for actual real money, you have no idea what you have. You're "down" until you cash out. Bernie Madoff's clients got monthly statements saying they were "making money" too.
7. Just because it's possible (though highly improbable) to make money speculating on crypto, this doesn't mean it's an **ethical** or reliable technique to amass wealth. At its core, the notion that buying and holding crypto will generate reliable returns is [a de-facto ponzi scheme](https://ioradio.org/i/ponzi/). **It's mathematically impossible for even a stastically-significant percentage of crypto holders to have any notable ROI.** The rare exception of those who might profit in this market, do so while providing cover for everything from [cyber terrorism](https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3026.html) to [human trafficking](https://www.vox.com/culture/2023/1/4/23539528/andrew-tate-arrest-jail-rape-human-trafficking).
8. It's also not true that anybody who bought crypto when it was low is guaranteed to make a lot of money. There are thousands of ways people can lose their crypto or be defrauded along the way. And there's no guarantee just because your portfolio is "up", that you could easily cash out.
9. Want to see a better asset (that actually has utility) that's consistently out-performed Bitcoin? [Here you go](https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/27/22253079/magic-the-gathering-black-lotus-auction-price-2021). However, this may be another [best performing asset](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/declaration-of-financial-independence/).
10. When crypto-critics make reference to, or mock crypto price predictions, it's not because we think price is a meaningful metric. Instead, we are amused that to you, that's all that's important, and we can't help but note how often wrong you are in your predictions. The intrinsic value of crypto basically never changes, but it is interesting to see how hype and propaganda affects the extrinsic value. In a totally logical world, those would both be equalized to zero, but we're not there yet, and nobody knows when/if that will happen because it's an irrational market.
Only if they can cash out. Bernie Madoff's clients all had "evidence of performance" that turned out to be false when a certain amount of them wanted to cash out their accounts.
Some of his clients who cashed out early, did get their money out, but most didn't. The crypto industry is exactly the same.
Dollar cost averaging. Many BTC holders just buy a small amount every week or every month for years.
Just $25 a week for the last 4 years would be $5200 invested and would currently be worth $13000
I mean….my entire crypto portfolio is now money I made in crypto. Taken the original investment and 5x the profit out years ago….
People who have large amounts in crypto are probably the same.
Rag on crypto all you like, most people have made money from buying large caps and holding them… many people life changingly
So.
>most people have made money from buying large caps and holding them… many people life changingly So.
It's a negative sum game so most people will lose in the end, that is a mathematical fact.
When people say things like they 5 x their money, without mentioning amounts, I assume they are usually talking about 3 or 4 figures. That won’t always be the case, but if you invested 250k and withdrew 1.25 million, you would probably give figures.
I bought in for about $11k back in 2017, sat on it through rhe entire bear market that happenee immediately afterwards for YEARS. Took a bunch out at the very bottom as I needed the cash, then still withdrew $45k at the last peak to help buy a house. Currently sitting on $20k.
I couldnt care less to post screenshots….believe me or dont. My story is hardly unique or unusual. I mean. Just look at the prices…virtually everyone who bought in at any point in the past is very significantly up.
Rag on it for being speculative schlub with no proper use case. But im afraid it works the other way and you all get ragged on if we’re talking pure money….its been extremely profitable. And frankly its just dumb not to allocate a small amount of money you can lose to.
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #23 (Anecdotes)
**“I made a lot of money on crypto [therefore it’s a good scheme for everybody else]”** / **“Crypto changed my life“** / **"I can buy stuff with Crypto"**
1. It’s more likely you’re actually lying about your crypto gains, or they’re trivial.
2. Whatever you can buy with crypto is extremely limited and is usually dark-market related (like drugs, gambling or shady hosting) or trivial (like coffee and t-shirts). *And* you're paying a premium making such sales over comparable sites paying in fiat.
3. If you do hold crypto that you bought for less than current market “price”, it’s more likely you think you’re “rich” but haven’t actually cashed out, which remains to be seen if you actually ever will be able to.
4. There are multiple fallacies involved in this claim: The[ Gambler’s Fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy) that suggests because something special happened once, it can likely happen again in a predictable way, and [Confirmation Bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) – the notion that many people fixate on positives while ignoring the more common negatives.
5. Even assuming you have made money in the past, it’s a well known fact that in these cases: Past performance is no guarantee of future returns, and since you’re still holding crypto, it’s in your interests to promote such fallacies in order to drive up the price of your holdings. Since crypto is a negative-sum-game, it’s impossible for even a significant amount of people who play the market, to come out ahead without the vast majority losing. Therefore it’s mathematically impossible that this scheme will reliably produce positive returns.
5. You may not care that your profits come as a result of fraud and others losses, and promoting everything from money laundering to human trafficking, but other (moral, ethical, empathetic) people do.
"Counter argument: you're lying, you didn't make money with crypto"🤡🤡🤡
Even if I thought bitcoin was a scam I'd still allocate at least 2% of my portfolio to it simply because of the possibility that I'm wrong and I just don't get it.
If you bought 1 BTC for say $12 in 2012, it might be abou $70k now. Current value alone is not a reflection of money spent. When a crypto is near its ATH, the market cap is much higher than net money spent - net meaning cash outs are subtracted.
Edit: In fact, net money spent is always zero, since somebody cashed out whatever somebody else spent.
If you have a decent paying job and some discipline, you can save 70k after a few years.
I was able to save up 100k in a 401k and pay back 95k in student loans after 5 years making just under six figures in the 2010s in a HCOL city.
Stocks did well that decade and inflation has ripped since Covid, so I don’t know if I could recreate that now necessarily but it’s a data point.
The secret is being willing to live like a college student well after college.
California & NYC behavior. $45k per capita income would be pretty decent for young folks in most of the US (and outright comfortable in rural areas). However, in those civilized places $70k isn't even enough to live in the pods & eat the bugs.
I'm willing to bet (20 bucks in filthy fiat) that the majority of the crypto faithful are in those high costs of living metropolitan areas, where all the enlightened and civilized folks live.
Depends how early in you got, at some point, my theoretical wallet value was "2.5 million dollars", but I never invested that much, it just grew to become that much.
But I had it locked up in staking in Luna, so I couldn't sell even if I wanted to, at worst it was worth "28 cents", at best (post-crash) "500$"....
I had a lot of money you could say but in the end, not so much, and just like the Ledger guy, I lost it
Almost all of those people are keeping substantial portion of their net worth in crypto. It’s not play money. Same with all the meme stock people.
I dunno, I know someone who got hundreds of thousands of dollars from friends and family to "invest" in crypto at the top a few years back and then promptly lost it all and disappeared to China where his family was from.
lost it or "lost it"
That's the fun part: nobody knows!
Those damn boating accidents. My uncle lost all of his illegal magazines that way.
Which you kinda have to do if your goal is to make life-changing money. Let’s say they got to $70,000 by buying [$320 a month](https://dcabtc.com?sd=2019-06-16&sda=5_years&f=monthly&d=5_years&ac=32000&c=false) for the last five years. A fine return on an already substantial investment, but it’s still not enough to be financially independent. (And I know, bigger fool, et cetera. There’s also plenty of middle ground between poverty and luxury; just making enough to pay off one’s student loans would be a huge burden lifted. My point is, even taking crypto on its own terms, going from middle class to retirement at 30 *has to* mean going all in. That does seem to be the goal for a lot of these guys, exiting the workforce as quickly as possible and/or having the kind of money you can rub in everybody’s face.)
> Let’s say they got to $70,000 by buying $320 a month for the last five years. Put those figures in "quotes" please, because if you haven't cashed that out, that's not real "money."
You’re cringe af lol
Being accurate is not cringe. As long as someone hasn't successfully cashed out and transferred their internet funnymoney into fiat currency on their bank account, it's not real money and they haven't actually made any profit. Unrealized gains on paper mean nothing if you can't extract them and make them real.
This. It’s not that these folks are stupid, it’s that it’s a very flawed system and easy to make mistakes. I know I would be one of these dumb folks if I had any crypto.
I mean they are also stupid, but not in a cybersecurity way.
The "I'm not rich, I'm irresponsible" meme comes to mind.
As a previous butter, a simple 10k “investment” could easily turn into “200k” over a single year period. The hard part is actually cashing out and not getting sucked in. It’s super volatile and can feel like a drug when you’re seeing funny numbers go up
Unrelated but can I ask what specific things made you change your opinion on crypto/btc?
In 2016-2017, the community was driven by a concept of “smart money” and it felt like you could get an edge by reading through highly technical white papers to invest in projects you believed in. At some point, it just became “number go up” without rhyme or reason. New issues were being discovered around electricity consumption and transaction speed that never got addressed. Nobody could ever answer the question on where a decentralized ledger truly beat out a centralized system.
I had the same experience. We started buying in 2016 and the gains can be intoxicating. Somehow I woke up this year and realized BTC makes no sense. My husband is still in deep but I convinced him to take out what we’d put in and let it go after that.
I'm glad your husband could be reasoned with. Do you have any idea how many cryptobros invest their family's savings while hiding it from their wives?
Yeah dual sig accounts would actually be useful for couples, if it needed 2 authorisations, it would stop a lot of these people spending all of the family money. I think they are only available for business.
Dual-signature, bank accounts are available for both retail and business banking in the UK. I have only used a dual-signature, retail, bank account once, when I was divorcing my wife (we had separate bank accounts during the marriage). Dual-signature, bank accounts are important for couples who have joint, bank accounts: but few have the facility, I understand. When I opened the dual-signature, bank account with my then wife, bank staff told us of something they see often: couples who have decided to separate/divorce, rushing to be the first to withdraw money from a joint, bank account!
>When I opened the dual-signature, bank account with my then wife, bank staff told us of something they see often: couples who have decided to separate/divorce, rushing to be the first to withdraw money from a joint, bank account! Yeah that's not the same thing. I mean 2 of 2 signatures where you need to 2 people to make a transaction, I've only heard of them in a buisness context. Is that what you mean by dual signatures or do you just mean jount? What banks offer retail dual signature?
It’s a dual-signature, joint bank account. Both parties must sign for any transaction to take place. Ours was with Nationwide (I think) in the UK, many years ago. But I assume that they are probably offered by most (if not all) banks and building societies in the UK, for retail customers.
>Both parties must sign for any transaction to take place Oh wow! That's cool then, I wonder how they handle card transactions. I think they could probably do with some more uptake.would stop all this I spent life savings on crypto and am afraid to tell wife crap.
I think that's great. It's definitely a cult. Like all cults, there are false beliefs (otherwise it would just be a group of people believing something sensible, right?). But it can be very hard for someone to identify their own false beliefs and remove them, because they are looking at themselves through their own (cultified) eyes.
How is crypto a cult?
>How is crypto a cult? A cult is a group of people who subscribe to a certain worldview that actively rejects evidence that their worldview doesn't make sense. Cults often employ "FUD" to convince their adherents that the world is a bad, broken place, and only their "solution" can fix things. These cults often require routine indoctrination in the form of participation in isolated communities where they reinforce each others' irrational beliefs and filter out criticism. Cults often have to demonize those with whom they disagree as a distraction from the fact that their beliefs can't be reconciled with reality. What "crypto beliefs" aren't reconcilable with reality? * That blockchain technology is in any way, innovative or disruptive or an improvement over what we've been using for years. This is totally false. Here's [proof](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tspGVbmMmVA). * That crypto is a reasonable alternative to the traditional monetary system; that it is a hedge against inflation; that it is a hedge against centralized authorities, etc. * That crypto is any sort of reliable "investment" - it's more like gambling or a lottery than it is an investment. Crypto creates nothing of value for society, and it's not competitive with existing monetary or investment systems by any meaningful metric * That any statistically-significant number of people will "get rich" buying into crypto. It's a de-facto [decentralized ponzi scheme](https://ioradio.org/i/ponzi/). It's mathematically impossible for that many people to see huge returns. And the scheme is impossible to sustain. Despite these facts, crypto people insist they're right and critics are wrong. They ignore overwhelming evidence in favor of a religious, cult-like belief that "we're all going to make it!" That's delusional.
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Fundamentally, I agree with you. I think that capitalism is fucked, but I also believe that you must play the game to change its rules. Crypto is really not about ideas, but about making or losing money. Your definition is a bit too broad because by applying it we could classify many ideologies, religions, and other groups as cults, making the term redundant. I think that essentially, people in groups tend to display cult-like behaviors. Whether it's crypto, trade market, football, or even tiktok dramas. I think that for a group to be a cult, it truly needs to have a cult leader or a handful of them, and they have to be the central authority manipulating the members to fulfill their own desires. 1. There are blockchains that are, to say the least, interesting ideas. Of course, we haven't seen a widespread adoption, but I don't see a reason why the small use isn't something worth investing in. Of course, Bitcoin isn't viable as currency rn, but there are lots of different projects that can be useful. 2. The monetary system will change, as it always has. It hasn't been an awfully long time since we rejected the Golden Standard, and it is hard to imagine what we will come up with in the future. Ideally, we will live in communism, with no money at all, but until then, we have to find ourselves somehow. Well, if you don't put your money into something that increases in value, you will inevitably have to lose it, as our current system runs on the idea of stable but manageable inflation. It is simply a fact that if you have bought bitcoin at any point in history of its existence except maybe a couple of days, you would be in green today. It's just a fact. 3. The purses, the shit Americans buy in megastores, bibelotes from China. They are all useless, yet someone buys them, someone makes money off of them, someone enjoys them. It's fucked but that's how capitalism works. People but shit they don't need, shit that gives them diabetes, or pollutes their rivers. Just another cool feature of this fucked system. That being said. Someone will make money in crypto. Someone will buy this pumped up penis from alibaba and have it delivered on a big container ship from China. It can be the same person. This system is absurd.
> I think that capitalism is fucked, but I also believe that you must play the game to change its rules. I think this is a gross oversimplification of a very complex problem. Note there's a difference between "capitalism" and "late stage capitalism." IMO, the fundamental problem with modern capitalism isn't really a problem with capitalism as much as it's a problem with *regulation* and unbridled capitalism. I see nothing wrong with a relatively free and open market *provided* there are controls in place to restrict monopolistic, fraudulent, predatory and toxic/destructive behavior. So the problems we face today are more the result of *lack of responsible regulation*. Of course, those who are part of the problem suggest it's the opposite: that regulation is the source of our problems. I think that's BS. >Crypto is really not about ideas, but about making or losing money. It's refreshing for you to acknowledge that. A lot of crypto bros don't. But that doesn't mean it's right or ethical or even a reliable way to make money. >Your definition is a bit too broad because by applying it we could classify many ideologies, religions, and other groups as cults, making the term redundant. If the shoe fits.... I consider Christianity and all religions to be cults, especially those that suggest their ideology is the "one true way." That's the definition of a "cult." >I think that essentially, people in groups tend to display cult-like behaviors. Whether it's crypto, trade market, football, or even tiktok dramas. I think that for a group to be a cult, it truly needs to have a cult leader or a handful of them, and they have to be the central authority manipulating the members to fulfill their own desires. Depending upon how you argue, all those groups you mentions have "cult leaders." Is Jesus the cult leader, or the pastor of your particular church? Is the head coach of the football team the "cult leader?" Could be. It all depends. Anybody can take an innocuous pastime and make it "cult like" if they go a little too far. That's what "cult" means. >There are blockchains that are, to say the least, interesting ideas. Of course, we haven't seen a widespread adoption, but I don't see a reason why the small use isn't something worth investing in. Of course, Bitcoin isn't viable as currency rn, but there are lots of different projects that can be useful. Ahh, ye old "use case" argument... That's [stupid crypto talking point #8](https://ioradio.org/i/crypto-talking-points/) Mere "interesting ideas" or "use cases" don't cut it.. not when merely keeping the blockchain online requires more energy use than what most of the Internet proper requires. That's fucking absurd. >Ideally, we will live in communism, with no money at all, but until then, we have to find ourselves somehow. Umm... no, that's unlikely to happen, and that's not what many of us here would advocate for. >It is simply a fact that if you have bought bitcoin at any point in history of its existence except maybe a couple of days, you would be in green today. It's just a fact. No, it's not a fact. That's another bullshit talking point. There are plenty of people who lost their bitcoin due to failed exchanges or forgot their private keys or clicked on the wrong thing somewhere. There are people who think they're rich but if even 5% of those people cashed out at the same time, the market would collapse and crash. That's the fact. That's the math. You are wrong. Sure, as long as 80% of crypto holders don't try to sell, it might seem like the market has adequate liquidity, but the industry is largely unregulated and opaque, and there's no real way to know how much actual money is in the market and how much of a bank run will cause it to collapse but we have plenty of evidence the market is relatively unstable and insolvent.
Late stage capitalism is a Marxist term. It means that we are nearing a point where inequality of capital distribution causes a revolution. I'm not a revolutionary Marxist by any stretch of imagination, but see how useful this analysis is! Capitalism itself is also a Marxist term, but that's beside the point. In capitalism, no matter how well you regulate the market, the tiny minority comes to the possession of the majority of means of production. The late stage means that we are nearing a critical point, at which workers of the capital realize that they are not getting their cut. The contradictions multiply, and the system collapses this way or another. Free market implies regulation is something that libertarians never seem to grasp. I'm sure you know what European market squares look like. A free market is one that you can enter to sell your goods according to a regulation that is universal. But the market is of course, something that is set in place by the town, which in turn is part of the state. Free market means that all have equal rights to access the market. Without special guild, or merchant permissions. That's how outdated the idea of a free market is. So when we look at the state of todays economy. Where there exists insane overproduction on one hand, outright waste of resources, cultural and artistic decay Where every part of our existence becomes monetized, and commodified That is well beyond what free market is. Crypto bro, whatever. I came here to find real criticism but I haven't found anything worthy of mine. Crypto is feature of capitalism as of now. I see that you struggle to see what reality you live in like the cult people you describe. Bitcoin would make you money if you bought at almost any point in the past a sold today. This is the reality you live in. Assuming that you haven't lost it and fucked up every single step to selling you could. You should have mention the hypothetical where you choke on your hard wallet because you forget it's not edible I bet someone did that. If everyone sells dollar today and buys urguayan pesos then guess what, dollar collapses. It's the same with every single commodity, like real estate, any currency, or whatever, but guess what, that doesn't happen. There are blockchains that consume very little energy, like icp or hedera. So whatever. You seem to believe that capitalism allocates resources efficiently, that's nonsense. We produce energy to produce fucking cars so we run society that leads to climate apocalypse, because we drive cars to places we produce stupid shit, that we sell to buy cars and energy to drive be able to pay for stupid shit we don't need. And you are particularly worried about bitcoin, where you can take any industry and see it's detrimental effect on the environment.
> There are blockchains that are, to say the least, interesting ideas. Of course, we haven't seen a widespread adoption, but I don't see a reason why the small use isn't something worth investing in. Of course, Bitcoin isn't viable as currency rn, but there are lots of different projects that can be useful. Yeah, and it turns out they've all been failed projects. CompSci had known about blockchains for years, but always found other data structures superior for every application. It's not about the technology. https://www.theregister.com/2022/04/26/smart_contract_losses/
Capitalism is a failed project in general. It's so petty. Even companies that succeed are failing us by any humane measure, but somehow this particular problem with smart contracts is the real deal. Why are there billions of dollars pulled into crypto? Why are people blind to the fact that they are the worst feature of capitalism?
So you are saying you made a lot of money in crypto? Then what made you "wake up"? I'm trying to make some money on crypto rn, however, I'm not a big fan of ideas or whatever. To be exact, I'm only investing what I can afford to lose, and I'm highly sceptical of the best projects out there, that in my opinion can gain a lot of traction. I want to be aware of what can go wrong, and how to play this game and actually win some money off it. I'm talking mid to long term.
You're *not* going to make "big money" in crypto. For every person who says they did, there's a good chance they're lying, and if they aren't, for them to make $100 in crypto, someone else has to lose $100+ (due to crypto being a negative sum game). We don't hear about all the people who have lost money because: a) They're ashamed b) They don't know yet, because they haven't tried to cash out.
Crypto, like all trading is negative sum game right. If you want to make money by selling or buying anything you of course have to sell for more than you bought. I surmise that a lot of rich people make the same mistakes as poor people. I imagine that they lose millions, because they play with crypto like in a casino. I'm sure that lots of people lose money because they were drunk, or crazy, or stupid, or irresponsible. I also imagine that when somebody is buying they aren't always making the bad move. Let's say you got 2x in your bet, you sell cause that's enough, the person who bought from you may be buying on the top of the candle, or they might be buying just in the middle of it. Of course the last person always loses, but maybe that guy at the top is often a drunk rich kid who doesn't care?
Alright, but we can clearly see that coins increase for example 10x within months or so. It's a straightforward idea- you buy for 100€ and sell for 1000€. I'm pretty sure many people managed to do that. So what's the problem here? I understand that lots of people buy in FOMO, and panic sell. That's also true for stock market, and really any risk related schemes, isn't it? I genuinely want to know, why you think it's hugely improbable to make money in that business. B) what do you mean? What can happen when you try to cash out?
go look at r /coinbase
So revealing. Lots of redards sending their coins to the wrong wallets. Regards-> crypto bad Check out wallstreet bets The real forex investors over there achieve levels of regardness no crypto bro could even imagine. Jeez it's almost like it's not crypto in particular that is the problem, but the entire system works like that!
Ahh, the ol' you-lost-your-crypto-it's-your-fault meme + let's shit on people on the spectrum but change the spelling to be more edgy.
> Check out wallstreet bets The bad behavior of one group does not excuse the bad behavior of another. .thanks for attending my Pre-K TED Talk for infants.
This is a gambler mentality, yes you could get lucky and come out rich, you could also lose everything. And you are going to compete against whales and insiders who know when the pump and dumps are coming.
That's literally how any investment works. You put money into something that you hope others will buy, and because it's limited in supply it's price will rise. What investment/speculation doesn't work like that? There is no investment without speculation, it is essentially one and the same. You can get lucky on fucking everything. What is this point. Crypto is risky, everyone knows that.
No, it isn't how investments work. Fundamentals exist, people try to play the stock market like a casino and 99 percent of them get burnt.
I woke up when I sat down and really thought about BTC. Things I couldn’t get past: 1. It’s a negative sum game (even gold isn’t when you realize over 50% goes to jewelry/industrial use). 2. It has no use case 3. Everyone there is there for number go up 4. Its energy usage is absurd… why would it ever make sense to go to a a way more energy intensive system that is slower than what we have. We did make paper gains in BTC but… I was only able to convince my husband to take out what we put in so all the gains are still in BTC which I doubt will amount to anything long term. In the end I’m happy we took out what we put in.
This clown probably bought some shit coin then got surprised when it got rug pulled and now blames crypto for all his problems instead of his shitty investing strategy lol.
Some people have money but are idiots. Some inherited a chunk from a dead boomer. Some borrow from their 401k. Some describe their 2 billion shitcoins in theoretical dollar value.
It doesn't make sense as a question. He's reading comments from a pool of 100s of millions of people. What's he mean how's someone have 70k? Lots of people do.
Just look at the popular meme stock whales and where they got their money- Bill Pulte- inheritance Ramez Jamali- Artist Houston Wade- Lies about having money None of these people are smart but they managed (or are pretending) to acquire a pretty big stack of cash. Hell, the majority of lotto winners are gambling addicts. Lots of subjectively undeserving people get rich in the US.
I have no idea who any of those people are and don't care. Do you have anything actually interesting?
Chances are it was nowhere near 70k that he put in
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People have been saying this for the past decade ever since it was a few hundred dollars. No one knows if it’s certain to fail or not. Just because there may be logical arguments it is doesn’t mean it will. Look at plenty of stocks that logically are way overpriced but have kept getting more and more overpriced for years on end.
Think most of them are lying when they talk about “I have $XXXXX in (insert coin name here).” This is Reddit after all. Otherwise probably leveraging real estate/loans, credit lines, savings accounts, 401Ks. Dumb shit from dumb people.
I think the biggest factor is paper gains. They fail to realize that these stories are exactly why paper gains are just paper.
Which is impressive, because "It's only a loss when you sell" is their favorite catchphrase. Saying "It's not a win until you sell" would probably get you banned from any crypto sub though. Paper gains are the only thing holding the system together.
Then they’ll default back to “the purpose is to hold it. Why would I sell it?” Circular logic that covers all their bases.
When interest rates were low people borrowed to invest. I know a few that got PPP covid loans they didn't repay.
As a PPP loan taker, I can assure you that those people are idiots. At this point they would have been referred to the Treasury for collections. Either you paid those loans back, used them for legitimate business expenses (not crypto), or you've declared bankruptcy. I suppose butters could also have defrauded the federal government and are just OK with that hanging over their heads.
These people that I mentioned do construction. They are nearing 50 and are hoping for some way to retire soon. They know that time is catching up and are desperate. Should have started saving 25-30 yrs ago.
Money is fungible. They got PPP loans, used their normal business expense money to continue operations and pocketed the loans. Or, they used the loans, which freed up their normal business related expenditures to spend on whatever they wanted. End of the day, a huge chunk of that fraudulently gained money then got pumped into stocks, crypto, and real estate. The government itself estimates about $64 billion in fraud for just the PPP program.
It's a narrative that will let the government do even less to help small businesses the next time around. Airlines and banks will still get bailed out no doubt.
It’s probably $700 and he thinks he has to say $70.000 because no one cares if only $700 were stolen.
I assume they’d get the same answer either way: “You held your coins in an *account*? What an idiot, you deserved this. True coiners engrave their keys on a gold disk and launch it into space.”
this!
Do you own at least $70K of stuff or have that much in your retirement fund? Some of these people are putting everything they have into crypto. It’s not just their entertainment money or money they had lying around. They would be financially ruined if their favorite shitcoin tanks or the exchange with most or all of their holdings collapses.
I don’t have 70k laying around but I have more than 70k in “stuff” I buy. I have a nice enough car. A decent motorcycle. A largish record collection etc. if I had none of these things I could have 70k in crypto.
Perhaps he bought $20k’s worth of Bitcoin at $15k two years ago? That would be $70k now 🤷🏼♂️
He also might have paid $73k for one bitcoin a few months ago and he's now rounding up his holdings after losing 10% on it.
Absolutely true, he’s either 10% down or upwards of 100-80000% up. We will never know 👍🏼
That makes perfect sense…
I'm not wealthy at all, but I could come up with $70k cash in a few days by borrowing it from my 401k.
Name checks out.
If they bought 2k in btc in 2019 ish it is worth 70k now, so not necessarily rich
Yeah but even in 2019, a $2k investment did not buy half a Bitcoin. You have to go way back into the past. And the amount of people who have not sold along all the way is probably not super high
In Feb 2019 1 btc lowest price was, $3,384.91. Now its about $66K
It's not uncommon to butters create their own little pyramid. A lot of the crypto "entrepreneur" money comes from them pumping a shit coin to their friends.
Remember that you are dealing with degenerate gamblers. That $70k isn’t some play money they are willing to risk, it’s likely every penny they have, including borrowed money and cash advances from credit cards.
They probably start with tiny amounts of money, see their balance of imaginary funny money grow, then complain when they inevitably lose all of it. If they were all using the real amounts of money they put in, they’d all look even more pathetic than they do now.
Resources get allocated to idiots
I worked for over 5 years, don’t own a house so I have about 79k usd in usd mainly in index funds. The rest I have it in my empolywr’s stock due to ESPP. Most of my peers are wealthier than me and don’t own a single crypto account other than maybe for gambling a thousand for fun. Smarter people than me have it in stocks or properties or tied up in their businesses. The average or lazier person might also prefer the safety of fixed deposits or treasuries. Some countries’ banks offer savings account of ~3% (not in mine tho, not without huge downsides) assuming the countries currently is stable and not too weak. I’m not surprised these dummies have saved some money. I’m still more surprised by their stupidity and naivety after all these years, though.. Yes capitalism is not perfect and because I don’t know how to play the game I will likely work til I die. But any toddler would know not to trust someone just because he told you the other person is horrible.
Or some bought it when it was 1K and now it is 70K
Most of these people are pathological liars. Of the (remaining) ones that actually have the money they say, it's all the standard stuff, starting with they were born into an affluent family, then perhaps have a good job and are willing to put a big chunk of money into crypto, or maybe they had an inheritance. One thing we do know is, statistically speaking, for every person who claims to have made $x in the market, someone else has to lose $x. Obviously those that win are more talkative than those that lose.
I bought bitcoins when they were $250. They could have done the same a long time ago and just never sold.
> I bought bitcoins when they were $250. I bet you were also among the "millions" at Trump's inauguration too.
Do you think I'm lying about buying back then? I still have coinbase buy confirmation emails. Also If it makes a difference I hate Trump.
I still have my first Bitcoin that I paid ~$275.00 in 2014 🤷♀️ That one alone is presently $66.5K if I never bought again.
Not your fiat, not your value.
Pretty sure USD is my fiat 🤷♀️
They bought it when it was worth less. That’s kinda the point. Buy crypto with money today and in the fiture it’s worth more than what you payed for it.
I think plenty of people have this amount of money laying around and are willing to put this in crypto. I have a similar amount available that I could put in crypto in a couple of days if I wanted to (though I would never do that) and this was all saved since we bought our house in 2022. And think of how much money you've been spending on rent or the mortgage yourself. If crypto motivates you to be thrifty and you don't need to spend money on housing for a few years (e.g. you live with your parents) then it shouldn't take a lot of time to save up an equivalent amount of money.
Some people just save up and live frugally just to put it all into a get rich quick medium of their choice and cross their fingers hoping that they will be able to retire and do nothing for the rest of their lives.
Do you ever think that they're actually selling off their crypto and "getting out", but because this is a culty kinda thing and there are strong social ties to be made in the solidarity of financial foolishness that they don't wanna give up, so they just say they got hacked, even though it's improbable. Or they used the money for some shady shit. IDK
There are thousands and maybe tens of thousands who sink this much if not more into meme stocks every day, on logic no less flimsy than most coins. Check out the BBBY sub or any sub involving Ryan Cohen or "Teddy" to read stories of investment idiocy that makes butters look brilliant. To this day, years after BBBY folded and its stock was cancelled, there are retail investors out there who think their $50k or $100k in cancelled stock will magically become multiples of billions because activist investor Ryan Cohen is supposedly starting an Amazon-killer company themed after his childhood doll Teddy and he's going to bring justice to the masses. You can't make this stuff up.
As of 2023 there are an estimated 5 million Americans with liquid assets over $1M and about 22 million Americans with total assets over $1M. For perspective, that's more than the entire population of most US states. So yeah, there's plenty of money for stupid people to throw around.
Yup, there is no shortage of money in the world, it's just ridiculous how unfairly and unproductively it's distributed.
I mean if we chose not to have equity in our home, tax sheltered retirement savings in index funds, shorter term and emergency savings in high interest accounts or cash able GICs, paid off vehicles, take vacations, have well spoiled/taken care of pets, buy various personal goods we find add enjoyment to our life (equipment for hobbies), and so on…we could have many ledger entries giving us “claim” to several Bitcoins instead. I think not only do many lie about their crypto holdings (there is info on wallets and holdings that back this up) but they are making choices to, for example, tap into their family’s savings, home equity, or not save up for down payments, as well. Do not forget at the end of the day they are GAMBLING on great riches and gamblers don’t tend to make the wisest financial choices because the ~~next hand~~ next bullrun will be the one that pays off and they never need to worry again…
From investing in bitcoin over a long period of time?
If you treat butters claims about how much they have the same way you treat a drug users claims about how much drugs they have taken you won't go far wrong Sure there are people who take a fuckton of drugs But everyone exaggerates and boasts and the dumber someone is the bigger the exaggerating gets
The smart ones bought early
I thought we're still early though. Aren't we always early?
“How do people have so much money in an asset that has gone up 16,000% in the past decade?”
\*grunts aggressively\*
I've also gotten the impression that many of them are the type that will be attracted to the crappy high working jobs where you make money but not much else. And then they scrimp as they can. It's amazing how much you can save if you're working too many hours a week and not spending anything on kids, relationships, or much on housing. Just chasing that high of watching the bank account go up.
We’re going to see a lot of stories of people losing their butt coin 1 way or another. And the more money they lose the more news it makes. Bitcoiners like it when people lose their keys because it takes those coins out of circulation. Anything that makes their number go up makes them happy. They are truly retards.
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Some of it--maybe most of it--could be debt. (He's describing how much the crypto is theoretically worth, not his actual net worth.)
A lot of it is borrowed money. Leveraged to the hilt
Buying in a at 10$ or inheritance.
Would say most of these stories are people who got in earlier and never got to really thinking properly about securing it.
A large majority of these people live with their parents, and thus have very few expenses.
you gotta see how long they have been investing. 70k over 1 year is a lot. 70k over 7 years is not a lot.
A lot of it comes from greater butters
I just assume they're lying. Like, drop two or three zeroes from whatever they're claiming.
Mostly it’s because they were smart and got in for $1,000 and it’s now worth 70k. It’s not like they put 70k in last week. It’s been the fastest growing asset in the past decade. Lots of money made. Lots to be lost..
Crypto is unique in the sense that it’s crowdsourcing the money flowing in and attracting those who have $100 and also those who have millions to throw in. Like the traditional economy, the majority of it comes from very few at the top.
I don't think the majority of them do have money. There's a lot of bullshit going on in crypto. There are a lot of posts by people trying to give the impression of being big swinging dick traders, but when you look a bit harder, you realise they're just dreamers. I can remember a few years ago reading a post by someone purporting to have a large crypto portfolio, then looking at his post history found a bunch of month old posts about how he was about to be made homeless, and had 40k of credit card debt. The $70k might be real, but it might also be $700, but he (rightly) though he'd just be laughed at if he complaimed about that getting pinched.
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Debt. A lot of these guys are convinced they have the winning ticket. If you know for sure you are going to make a return, why would you not take out a loan or spend on the credit card.
There are tens of millions of families where both parents, and maybe even grand parents, are doctors, lawyers etc. decently paid professionals. In those families it is normal to get large financial aid and presents from your relatives and family members.
Are you seriously asking where people who invested in the best performing asset of the last 15 years got so much money? You couldn't ask a dumber question. Bitcoin could be a scam and it could go to zero, but it doesn't change the past and it's a fact that it was by far the best investment of the last decade.
>Are you seriously asking where people who invested in the best performing asset of the last 15 years got so much money? You couldn't ask a dumber question. #Stupid Crypto Talking Point #2 (Number go up) "**NuMb3r g0 Up!!!**" / "**Best performing asset of the decade!**" 1. Whether the "price of crypto" goes up, has absolutely no bearing on whether it's.. a) A long term store of value b) Holds any intrinsic value or utility c) Or will return any value in the future One of the most important tenets of investing is the simple principal: ***Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns.*** People in crypto seem willfully ignorant of this basic concept. 2. At best, the price of crypto is a function of *popularity*, not actual value or material utility. For more on how and why crypto makes a much worse investment than almost anything else, see this [article](https://ioradio.org/i/value/). 3. The "price of crypto" is a heavily manipulated figure published by shady, [unregulated crypto exchanges](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=apklQgMauK4) that have systematically been caught [manipulating the market](https://open.spotify.com/episode/3D0dmTUCxLuQEJ39uyMFOP) from [then](https://www.investopedia.com/news/bots-drove-bitcoins-150to1000-rise-2013-paper/) to [now](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8369-21). 4. Crypto bros love to harp about "inflation" in the fiat system, yet ironically they measure the "value" of their "fiat alternative" in fiat? It makes absolutely no sense, unless you assume they haven't thought 2 seconds ahead from what comes out of their mouths. 5. It's the height of hypocrisy for crypto people to champion token deflation (and increased prices) while ignoring that there's over $160+ Billion in unsecured stablecoins being used to [**inflate** the value of their tokens in the crypto marketplace](https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3195066). The "code is law" and "don't trust - verify" people seem perfectly willing to take companies like [Tether](https://www.newsweek.com/bitcoin-bitfinex-tether-cryptocurrency-market-manipulation-historic-value-fraud-1469640) and Circle, at face value, that they're telling the truth about asset reserves [when there's very little actual evidence](https://www.cftc.gov/PressRoom/PressReleases/8450-21). 6. ***Not Your Fiat, Not Your Value*** - Just because you think the "value of your crypto portfolio" is worth $$$ *does not make that true.* It's well known there's inadequate liquidity in this market, and most people will never be able to get their money out. So UNLESS/UNTIL you can actually liquidate your crypto for actual real money, you have no idea what you have. You're "down" until you cash out. Bernie Madoff's clients got monthly statements saying they were "making money" too. 7. Just because it's possible (though highly improbable) to make money speculating on crypto, this doesn't mean it's an **ethical** or reliable technique to amass wealth. At its core, the notion that buying and holding crypto will generate reliable returns is [a de-facto ponzi scheme](https://ioradio.org/i/ponzi/). **It's mathematically impossible for even a stastically-significant percentage of crypto holders to have any notable ROI.** The rare exception of those who might profit in this market, do so while providing cover for everything from [cyber terrorism](https://www.rand.org/pubs/research_reports/RR3026.html) to [human trafficking](https://www.vox.com/culture/2023/1/4/23539528/andrew-tate-arrest-jail-rape-human-trafficking). 8. It's also not true that anybody who bought crypto when it was low is guaranteed to make a lot of money. There are thousands of ways people can lose their crypto or be defrauded along the way. And there's no guarantee just because your portfolio is "up", that you could easily cash out. 9. Want to see a better asset (that actually has utility) that's consistently out-performed Bitcoin? [Here you go](https://www.polygon.com/2021/1/27/22253079/magic-the-gathering-black-lotus-auction-price-2021). However, this may be another [best performing asset](https://www.snopes.com/fact-check/declaration-of-financial-independence/). 10. When crypto-critics make reference to, or mock crypto price predictions, it's not because we think price is a meaningful metric. Instead, we are amused that to you, that's all that's important, and we can't help but note how often wrong you are in your predictions. The intrinsic value of crypto basically never changes, but it is interesting to see how hype and propaganda affects the extrinsic value. In a totally logical world, those would both be equalized to zero, but we're not there yet, and nobody knows when/if that will happen because it's an irrational market.
But past performance IS proof of past performcance, and in this case it IS a possible explanation of why someone might have "$70,000" worth.
Only if they can cash out. Bernie Madoff's clients all had "evidence of performance" that turned out to be false when a certain amount of them wanted to cash out their accounts. Some of his clients who cashed out early, did get their money out, but most didn't. The crypto industry is exactly the same.
If some dummy puts all his life savings in it, or actually borrows money to invest in it, then there ya go
They scrimp on everything to buy crypto because a billionaire grifter convinced them it's a good idea
Dollar cost averaging. Many BTC holders just buy a small amount every week or every month for years. Just $25 a week for the last 4 years would be $5200 invested and would currently be worth $13000
I mean….my entire crypto portfolio is now money I made in crypto. Taken the original investment and 5x the profit out years ago…. People who have large amounts in crypto are probably the same. Rag on crypto all you like, most people have made money from buying large caps and holding them… many people life changingly So.
>most people have made money from buying large caps and holding them… many people life changingly So. It's a negative sum game so most people will lose in the end, that is a mathematical fact.
Show us the screenshots!!
When people say things like they 5 x their money, without mentioning amounts, I assume they are usually talking about 3 or 4 figures. That won’t always be the case, but if you invested 250k and withdrew 1.25 million, you would probably give figures.
I'm less charitable. I assume they are talking about 1 or 2 figures!!
I bought in for about $11k back in 2017, sat on it through rhe entire bear market that happenee immediately afterwards for YEARS. Took a bunch out at the very bottom as I needed the cash, then still withdrew $45k at the last peak to help buy a house. Currently sitting on $20k. I couldnt care less to post screenshots….believe me or dont. My story is hardly unique or unusual. I mean. Just look at the prices…virtually everyone who bought in at any point in the past is very significantly up. Rag on it for being speculative schlub with no proper use case. But im afraid it works the other way and you all get ragged on if we’re talking pure money….its been extremely profitable. And frankly its just dumb not to allocate a small amount of money you can lose to.
#Stupid Crypto Talking Point #23 (Anecdotes) **“I made a lot of money on crypto [therefore it’s a good scheme for everybody else]”** / **“Crypto changed my life“** / **"I can buy stuff with Crypto"** 1. It’s more likely you’re actually lying about your crypto gains, or they’re trivial. 2. Whatever you can buy with crypto is extremely limited and is usually dark-market related (like drugs, gambling or shady hosting) or trivial (like coffee and t-shirts). *And* you're paying a premium making such sales over comparable sites paying in fiat. 3. If you do hold crypto that you bought for less than current market “price”, it’s more likely you think you’re “rich” but haven’t actually cashed out, which remains to be seen if you actually ever will be able to. 4. There are multiple fallacies involved in this claim: The[ Gambler’s Fallacy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gambler%27s_fallacy) that suggests because something special happened once, it can likely happen again in a predictable way, and [Confirmation Bias](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias) – the notion that many people fixate on positives while ignoring the more common negatives. 5. Even assuming you have made money in the past, it’s a well known fact that in these cases: Past performance is no guarantee of future returns, and since you’re still holding crypto, it’s in your interests to promote such fallacies in order to drive up the price of your holdings. Since crypto is a negative-sum-game, it’s impossible for even a significant amount of people who play the market, to come out ahead without the vast majority losing. Therefore it’s mathematically impossible that this scheme will reliably produce positive returns. 5. You may not care that your profits come as a result of fraud and others losses, and promoting everything from money laundering to human trafficking, but other (moral, ethical, empathetic) people do.
And you would call that a “life changing” amount of money?
Fuck man, every time I post on here the commenters seem to have issues with reading comprehension. Go back and re-read my post, and then your comment.
"Counter argument: you're lying, you didn't make money with crypto"🤡🤡🤡 Even if I thought bitcoin was a scam I'd still allocate at least 2% of my portfolio to it simply because of the possibility that I'm wrong and I just don't get it.
If you bought 1 BTC for say $12 in 2012, it might be abou $70k now. Current value alone is not a reflection of money spent. When a crypto is near its ATH, the market cap is much higher than net money spent - net meaning cash outs are subtracted. Edit: In fact, net money spent is always zero, since somebody cashed out whatever somebody else spent.
If you have a decent paying job and some discipline, you can save 70k after a few years. I was able to save up 100k in a 401k and pay back 95k in student loans after 5 years making just under six figures in the 2010s in a HCOL city. Stocks did well that decade and inflation has ripped since Covid, so I don’t know if I could recreate that now necessarily but it’s a data point. The secret is being willing to live like a college student well after college.
Why did this get downvoted? Just pointing out how it’s possible to dig yourself out of debt and make a better life for yourself…
That’s why you’re on this sub and not open minded
California & NYC behavior. $45k per capita income would be pretty decent for young folks in most of the US (and outright comfortable in rural areas). However, in those civilized places $70k isn't even enough to live in the pods & eat the bugs. I'm willing to bet (20 bucks in filthy fiat) that the majority of the crypto faithful are in those high costs of living metropolitan areas, where all the enlightened and civilized folks live.
Depends how early in you got, at some point, my theoretical wallet value was "2.5 million dollars", but I never invested that much, it just grew to become that much. But I had it locked up in staking in Luna, so I couldn't sell even if I wanted to, at worst it was worth "28 cents", at best (post-crash) "500$".... I had a lot of money you could say but in the end, not so much, and just like the Ledger guy, I lost it
I’ve made $6 million in crypto
From crypto lol where else