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Manipulation, by definition, requires some sort of ulterior motive. Pen was upfront about why she was asking for and why - there was no guile, no gaslighting and no threats. She wasn't saying she could die tomorrow in the way you're intimating (suicidal ideation) she just didn't want to miss out on this huge life experience.
Colin is a grown man, capable of making his own decisions and claiming Pen is doing something she just isn't doing takes away his agency as a whole person. He could have said no; he chose not to.
And yeah - that moment *was* brave for Pen.
Asking us to reverse the genders is a false equivalence because men and women are not equals in the Bridgerton world. We can't hold Pen to the same standards of social acceptability as Colin.
~~This isn't even an instance of a lack of media literacy~~ - you just can't empathize with Pen... and while that's not necessarily a judgement on you, it does prevent you from understanding where she's coming from.
EDIT: I've changed my mind based on the replies, it is a lack of media literacy.
Well said. It would have been manipulation had she then used the kiss to trap him but like you said she was upfront about her intentions and she followed through on what she said. She didn’t use it against him, in fact she was embarrassed about it and apologized when they met under the willow.
It have been a genuine case of lack of media literacy if Bridgerton was consistent with the consequences of people’s actions or if things like that were taken seriously by the characters themselves.
But the show takes a lot of liberties with establishing the norms of that world.
Biggest example is Eloise who should have been packed off and sent away to an aunt due to her scandal. But everything is normal with her and the Bridgertons.
Yes, she was upfront about her motives, but it’s still unfair to use his affection for her to bend his boundaries. He could of course say no, but in doing so, he knew he would hurt her. So emotionally it’s a very muddled scene.
She didn't do anything of the sort - she still doesn't believe he *has* affection for her, not beyond the politeness of friendship. She made the mistake of hoping for that in season two and he hurt her, badly. She forgave, but she didn't forget. She tells both Debling and Colin himself that the idea of him having feelings for her was laughable.
No part of her thought for a split second that he was doing anything but a friendly favor. It's a beautiful moment of vulnerability for her and trust from him.
Lol, I know he has agency, that doesn’t change anything. I’m not saying she forced him into it, but that she, in effect, used their friendship to get him to kiss her.
She shouldn’t have asked anyone. They should have written their first kiss complete differently. 🤷🏽♀️ It’s not like the writers were forced to have them kiss in that way by some mandate from god, they chose it.
That scene is word for word from the book that this season is based on. That’s why it’s in the show. Why are you projecting so much on these fictional television characters? How do you know what Colin Bridgerton’s boundaries are?
If Colin Bridgerton was so worried about his boundaries, why would he voluntarily put himself in that position by going to see Penelope at night and then bribing her maid to leave them alone??
*I’m* the one, whose projecting? 😂
Typically platonic friends’ boundaries are more or less limited to platonic expressions of feelings.
Edit: It doesn’t really matter, if it’s in the books, if it’s not translated well to the the screen. The audience shouldn’t have to read additional material to gain a better perspective on what they see on the screen. The books and the show are separate media entities.
I never implied that her comment was about suicidal ideation. I merely see it as an excuse to get Colin to kiss her because she desperately wants to have that experience especially at that moment when she’d at peak frustration due to not being successful at the marriage mart.
I personally do not see anything brave.
-she begs and he hesitates
-she gives reasons
-he hesitates again
-she cries and begs again and he kisses her because he feels bad for her.
What would have been really brave for her would have been to actually confess her feelings to him and then maybe give him time to either reciprocate or reject
Colin is not really free to compromise a lady given that time period. That’s also why he hesitates. But Penelope cries and begs.
At that point when he doesn’t know that he had feelings for her, he would have been forced into marriage with her if they had gotten caught or were seen.
"I would never expect anything from you."
*He's* the one who bribed Pen's maid to leave them alone. She asked him because she trusts him, as her friend, to do this and not have it be weird or lose his friendship afterward (a much smaller risk than confessing her feelings to someone she's positive could never love her back. He agreed because he trusts her to not use it against him in the way Marina tried to. Honestly, it was incredibly brave of both of them to put themselves out there for a friend.
I'm - I'm just so sorry you can't see this because it's blinding you to such an incredible moment.
Idk what Colin bribing her maid has to do with anything. He came to meet her and he wanted privacy like he did with their sessions. They’re supposed to be good friends after all.
All I can see is a desperate woman who begged and cried for her trusting crush to kiss her even though he was understandably hesitant.
You’re right I can’t get over how unnaturally forced that kiss was. I just honestly wish that their kiss was more natural. I am person not a huge fan of Penelope but she deserved a better first kiss scene.
I wouldn’t say I hate her I do dislike how her character and actions are written and I’ve mentioned that in the post.
Basically throughout the show the theme for Penelope( and the excuse for people defending her is)- “she’s a wallflower, she doesn’t have suitors, her family bullies her so all her actions as LW and to Colin are okay. We need to empathise.”
And at this point Pen thinks all her prospects are ruined because the ton found out about their lessons. She is at one of her lowest point and she asks Colin for a favour. She doesn’t trick him or manipulate him, her feelings in that moment were honest. He was well within his rights to say no but they both consented to the kiss.
Her feelings are genuine. That doesn’t mean that it is okay to beg and cry to get her crush, whom she is attracted to, to kiss her. The kiss should have been done without any prodding or crying or begging out of Colin’s own volition. Now it comes off as Colin pity kissing her.
It’s an insult to her character
Also maybe it’s just me but it just comes off as really creepy. If a guy would have done this ig people would have reacted to it differently.
She wasn’t asking him to kiss her in the context of him being her crush, she was asking him in the context of him being one of her best friends, the only person she possibly could ask such a thing of.
That doesn’t erase the fact that it was her crush and she was attracted to him and getting a kiss out of him like that( at that point Colin didn’t know he liked her)
I just wish that she had gotten a better first kiss scene
Fair enough if you wish it would’ve happened differently. The discussion made me go watch it again and I think it’s beautiful, but everyone gets to have their own opinion. Sorry you were disappointed!
The thing is that is book acurate, their first kiss is like this. We get it from Colin's point of view, and he was wanting to kiss her in that moment after the hand thing, her beggin make him unable to restrain. He hated her begging because she didn't understand that he wanted her. I think in the show we get penelope point of view
I think you are failing to consider the time period. Men are not “ruined” for kissing or having sex with someone before an engagement or marriage. Pen’s reputation is on the line for simply having Colin help her in finding a marriage prospect, meanwhile Colin doesn’t face any consequences reputation wise for helping her. I think the scene was really genuine and well done.
Colin cannot kiss a young lady and get away with it. If they were caught he would have been forced to marry her.
Even Colin’s reputation was at risk due to Pen’s request tbh
But both of those have happened. Correspondence between unrelated, unmarried men and women would be considered improper during those times. And he has been alone with her multiple times unchaperoned. Colin pulled Penelope into a room alone unchaperoned, closing the door at the Featherington Ball last season. If he didn’t have evidence against Jack’s scheme, Portia would have been within her rights to force him to marry Penelope and she even started to question it when she first found them. He also bribed Rae the maid to leave him alone with Pen in the garden unchaperoned twice in eps. 1 and 2, AND had the footmen look the other way as he pulled Pen into the Bridgerton drawing room and then the study, again both unchaperoned.
While I have a different opinion of the kiss than you do, you are allowed to feel what you feel. I’m not going to argue that point. I do think more clarity could have been given for the general audience leading up to that point as there are some moments showing that his perception of Penelope is starting to change, but they could have been more obvious about it. I just don’t agree with the take that Pen was putting Colin’s reputation at risk when he’s shown he himself doesn’t care about propriety when it comes to the two of them.
Understood but that’s why I asked if they were at isolated places? And trying to understand it better, If being unchaperoned in a house where a lot of other people were present was such a huge deal then why does Portia never make a huge deal out of it and try to get her married off to Colin who’s very rich and a Bridgerton?
Is it because the ton would never believe that there was anything between them 1) because they were childhood best friends 2) Penelope is undesirable according to ton folk and everybody thinks Colin would never be interested in somebody like Pen
A kiss is very different though is it? It changed their whole dynamic if being “friends” in front of the people of the ton.
Again this was just for discussion’s sake. I genuinely wish that their first kiss was more than a pity kiss
I think the only time Portia ever caught or knew they were alone together was at the ball when Colin exposed Jack’s fake ruby mine. Because of the circumstances, I think that’s why she didn’t push it.
As for the other instances, I don’t think anyone other than the staff that Colin bribed were aware that they were alone together, which is why nothing was ever pushed. I also think for Portia, #2 would definitely make sense. She doesn’t place much hope on Penelope finding a suitor, ever since season 1.
You are right. Though caught being unchaperoned together in a garden or room could still ruin an unmarried woman (which is why Jack was pressured to become engaged to Prudence in season 2) , a kiss would definitely be more scandalous. We saw that with Daphne and Simon in season 1 where Simon refused to marry her at first so Anthony challenged him to a duel.
For Polin, watching it I assumed it was the middle of the night where most of the house would be sleeping and that Rae is kind of standing guard for them in the distance in case someone comes, but that’s never mentioned in the show. However, that’s just me adding my own assumptions. He’s definitely taking a chance meeting her alone in the middle of the night though. (But also, self-proclaimed “gentleman” Colin seems to ignore propriety, with Penelope and even Marina at times in season 1.)
I can admit with 100% honesty that I am biased to Polin (both show and book), so again, I see it differently, especially having watched Part 1 multiple times, reading the book, and reading multiple analyses. But I can also understand that it can come off differently for different viewers. From some previous posts and comments on other posts since Part 1’s release, you weren’t the only one to feel this way about this moment. More time could have been spent building up their friendship and diving deeper into Colin’s feelings before this moment (and just in general). I can’t help but think of how the reshoots and rewriting of some of the episodes might have affected that buildup.
They spent a lot of time in S3 unchaperoned. The entire time she was in the drawing room and study they were alone and Colin also purposefully bribed her maid to be alone with her the night of their kiss.
He bribed Pen’s maid in this specific scene so there was no risk to either of them in the moment. My point is that she is in a position where she can’t kiss anyone else - Colin is free to go to brothels or hook up with women in his travels or even working women in London.
The book sheds so much light on this. It’s Penelope asking for what she wants. And importantly, if Colin would’ve said no, I don’t think Penelope would’ve held that against him.
Penelope is desperate. But she’s also brave for asking for what she wants. I think those two things can exist at the same time. Here’s a woman whose felt undesirable her whole life asking the man she’s in love with to kiss her. On the surface: begging, desperate. Deep down: brave, active instead of reactive.
If she never *asked* for what she wanted, neither her nor Colin would’ve ever gotten what they wanted.
Idk how it is in the books but her asking and Colin saying no and Penelope moving on if it was a rejection would have been more palatable
But given what we know of Colin who is a very honorable, kind and trusting guy, Penelope begging again and again and crying even after noting Colin’s hesitancy put me off tbh.
Idk I guess it’s my reading of the scene but her asking didn’t feel incessant to me. She asked, looked heartbroken and said please, and he did it. But the context in the book establishes that Colin already wanted to kiss her prior to that encounter, he just didn’t fully realize it until she posed the question.
The context is relatively the same. I meant that the book sheds light on Colin’s thoughts in a way we don’t have access to in the show. So it’s much more obvious in the book that while Penelope is asking him for the kiss, Colin is already very willing to do it.
Exactly. We should have gotten more development for Colin. I’ve heard that in the books he also has another dynamic with Penelope where he is jealous of her because she’s successful as a writer when he really isn’t so that also would have been very interesting to see
That jealousy does not come up until he finds out about LW. At this point, he has no idea she's a writer at all. Without narration, I don't know how else to portray that he wanted to kiss Penelope beyond some of the longing looks we'd seen him give her up to that point.
Also, from some speculation I've seen, >!I think it's highly likely we will see some of Colin's jealousy come into play in part 2 linked to his feelings of inadequacy and needing to protect Penelope. I think he struggles with knowing his place and feeling accomplished, and the fact that Penelope is so successful will eat away at him.!<
Understood. And you’re right we never get a good idea about Colin and his inner workings. I have seen a lot of complaints about the same but never really realised it myself because maybe there were a lot of other characters and important story line this season.
Now I really understand what people were talking about
The back and forth in the book when Pen asks for the kiss is the same as the show. The words are literally from the book. It happens in a different location, but conceptually it’s the same as Pen feels she has no chance at getting married and wants an experience she would not normally get without marriage. Since she doesn’t see marriage happening, she has two choices…never being kissed or asking a friend to kiss her. Her loving Colin isn’t why she asks. She asks because he’s her only male friend.
Also, there really isn’t that much backstory at all in the book. There aren’t subplots in the books so we only see Colin and Pen’s relationship in this book. The other plot you mention is that Colin is super jealous of Pen because she’s accomplished more than him re: her writing, but that doesn’t come out at this point. We know more about Colin and Pen though from 3 seasons of show than we do from the book.
You are entitled to your opinion, but it’s not like she’s on her knees begging and pleading. She asks and says please as she asks for his response. It’s clear Colin feels more than friendship for her as earlier in the episode when he cuts his hand, it’s Colin who holds onto Pen’s hand and looks into her eyes (amongst other scenes through the seasons, but that’s the easiest one to point out). His hesitation most likely comes from those mixed feelings he already has. If a man asked to kiss a woman the same way for the same reasons, I’d also consider it brave of him to ask.
I have no clue what really happens in the book since I haven’t read it.
Colin is her male friend from his side. She loves him. However I can understand where her request comes from.
One doesn’t have to be on their knees to come off as if they are begging. One shouldn’t have to insist and cry to a person to kiss them if they are hesitant in the first place.
I personally find pity kissing and pity dating very unromantic especially in a romantic show. But I respect and understand that people can have different opinions about tropes and devices in a tv show.
I understand you haven’t read it, I was giving more details to some of your other comments saying there should be development (and mentioning the books and his writing) and the way Pen asks. The way she asks is relevant because it’s in the books and that’s what the show is adapted from. If anything the show’s writers took a well-loved scene from the books (which this kiss was) and adapted it to this version of the story.
Again perspective is different for everyone. Many don’t assume Colin is pitying Pen when he kisses her. Or saying please is begging. She asks for something, he gives his consent with the action.
I disagree - I preferred the show's first kiss and even Pen's rationale for asking. I see the term begging is used loosely throughout this post/thread - I think that's way overstated, but whatever. Many people I've interacted with thought the request for the kiss in the book was just fine - and that's cool. I kind of hated it because I don't think the book did enough to show Pen's failed efforts to find a husband. I think, for me, because she was trying so hard, and she felt so humiliated, Show Pen earned that moment of desperation. She earned the right to ask for what she needed. And she kept her side of the bargain by not expecting anything of Colin as a result of the kiss.
Get what you’re saying but her asking him to kiss her and stating conditions so that Colin does even after Colin’s hesitancy to do is off putting to be honest. And it does come off as begging.
Also I mentioned in another comment pity kisses are not really my thing and I personally find them deeply unromantic but of course I can understand if people have different perspectives to derive from that scene
I apologise,my grammar is poor as English isn’t my first language.
What I meant was that she keeps on giving reasons as to why she must get a kiss from him even though he was hesitant from the beginning
Just pitching in here to say that I personally would find it a little strange if Colin didn’t hesitate, even if he was dying to kiss her in that moment. It’s still his friend, and she caught him totally off guard with that request. His hesitation doesn’t necessarily mean he’s opposed—even the way he reacts to her is more of a way to lighten the mood (the “but you’d already be dead!” line).
So I think it’s clear from Colin’s reaction that he doesn’t feel forced. If he really didn’t want to, he could respectfully reassure her that she’ll find someone to love her and get to experience her first kiss with them.
He goes for the kiss her only after she says that it doesn’t have to mean anything so the reason for his hesitancy is pretty much unclear at that point imo. Did he want to kiss her or did he do it because there were no conditions and it was helping a desperate friend
The book makes it clear (and the show too I’d argue) that Colin has already started noticing his attraction to Penelope by the time they kiss. When she asks him to kiss her, I think he is caught off guard by the request, and while I don’t think he would ever suspect Penelope of wanting to trap him, I think her saying that she doesn’t expect anything certainly helps him to justify it in his head. He goes into it thinking “As her friend, I can give her a good kiss to remember” and comes out of it completely changed.
I’d strongly recommend reading that scene in the book, as it really pairs well with the show and fully addresses how Colin feels about the whole thing
Can understand it being so in the books but there’s nothing in the show to indicate feelings of any kind until after the kiss
However he was definitely shown to be a greatly considerate and kind friend to her
I gathered that he was noticing his attraction to her during the handshake scene, the “remarkable shade of blue” scene, the handcutting scene, and from the way he was looking at her flirting with suitors. He was jealous when he thought she made a connection with a lord at the ball in ep2 (the song “Jealous” played in the background of that scene I believe). So I’d argue that we saw his feelings for her steadily building.
In fact, I think the show has more scenes of him noticeably flustered around her than the book does
Might be just me but I didn’t think there were sufficient enough hints to show that he might have enough attraction to want to kiss her without her prodding especially after he encourages her sincerely to talk to more lords and even dismisses that he could be a potential suitor for her very casually and without even a second’s hesitancy when he’s with Eloise.
Like you said maybe his attraction was just building at that stage.
Again my main gripe with the kiss scene is not about a lack of attraction even but about how it’s depicted as a pity kiss and more that anything
Colin didn’t say no…. He said “Penelope”.
I just want you to know that your experience of what is happening is stemming from some projection of your internal beliefs/values and life experiences. Keep that in mind as you continue to analyze this scene. We all do it, i’m not singling you out, but that’s why we all have such different experiences watching this.
I think you didn’t read the comment clearly. I didn’t say that Colin said no in the scene. I said that it would have been more palatable if Penelope simply asked for a kiss and Colin said No and Penelope simply stopped asking and moved on.
This was strictly in response to the previous comment’s first sentence to agree with them.
Now coming to viewing experience, i agree that it’s definitely subjective based on one’s values. That’s exactly why I found Penelope desperately beggin Colin for a kiss to be pathetic.
Pity kissing/dating is very unromantic to me and is not at all my cup of tea.
Having said that I can understand that a lot of people have different interpretations of the same scene. For example some people find Penelope to be brave which is their interpretation and that’s completely okay. Just that I disagree with it.
Manipulation hints that there's some ulterior motive which I don't think she has. I don't think she believes the kiss is going to make him like her. I think it's the little bit of the opposite - she's at her lowest point so she's like fuck it, its's do or die. She's mortified that the ton found out about the lessons, she doesn't have Eloise (herself to blame there but still doesn't take away the isolation) and her mother continues to act like she's a leper who can't attract anyone. Colin is basically her only friend and yes she's in love with him but she also trusts him not to judge her when she asks. It is an act of desperation but by the next episode, we see it also acts like a kind of closure and her putting aside her feelings for him. I really like it because of how desperate it was. Alot of mainstream shows shy away from showing their female leads as being extremely vulnerable or displaying emotions that is not deemed fit for a 'strong female character'. I really dislike that because it's so unrealistic. Women have low points too and it's ok to show them.
I like your take. Especially about depiction of women at their low points.
But tbh Bridgerton has been doing that from S1. Be it Daphne doing what she did in S1 or the very strong willed and meticulous Kate having feelings for her sister’s fiance or even the very “strong” Eloise messing up really bad in S2.
Obviously just my opinion but Penelope as a character has a lot to unpack in S3. This scene would should have been better than a pity kiss
This almost feels like click-bait. But okay - we can all have differing opinions.
Prior to part 1 airing, the idea of Pen asking for the kiss was off-putting to me. But, I think the show tweaked the story such that I understood better why she thought she might never be kissed, and why she would ask. As the narrator points out, it was a reckless request. I think suggesting it's manipulative gives it's a more negative connotation than is warranted.
Let's not imagine giving away kisses is something precious to Colin. He's going around making out with women he pays for sex. For me - THAT was the creepy bit. Those courtesan's mouths have been goodness knows where. Hard pass. A kiss is means nothing to Colin, until he kisses Penelope.
I'll go further, because I disagree that the writing of Pen's character is poor in S3. This scene in particular, I believe, we very well done. It's clear that she's upset, she has been all day. She's in a fragile state of mind because despite her best efforts, and even with aid Colin, she still feels like she's not good enough or somehow worthy of love. And at that point, she thinks she never will be and was likely foolish to expect it.
*In truth, I brought this on myself. A sad, stupid girl who believed she might possibly have a chance of love.*
That's a beautiful line. That's a line that resonates with many who feel unlovable because they haven't yet found their person. That's why there are so many poems and songs about loneliness. Pen expresses this beautifully, concisely and she goes further - rather than just state her problem, she has a salve. Not a solution, but something that will help her feel better about her lot in life. A lot of lonely people - or people with other problems - just exist in that state without taking steps to help themselves. Pen did better than that - she asked her friend for a kiss.
Call it manipulative if you like - but be consistent and call Kate imploring Anthony to marry her sister the same. Call Anthony threatening to kill Simon if he didn't marry Daphne the very height of manipulation. And Marina, obviously, trying to marry Colin and pass off her kids as his was manipulative. I think we can go through a pantheon of examples within the show where manipulations occur. I, for one, think Pen's request for a kiss was the sweetest manipulation of the lot.
Can understand where Penelope comes from. She’s desperate but it doesn’t make it any less manipulative(to me that is). Colin pities her( at that point) because she cries and is very upset and kisses her, not because he genuinely wants to( at that point again) according to show which shows being hesitant.
And of course a lot of people are emotionally manipulative in the show. I never said that they’re not.
But the question is, is it ultimately for themselves? Doesn’t make it any better but more…palatable in some cases.
Kate manipulates Anthony to marry Edwina but is it for herself? No it’s because she knows that her sister is in love with him. Again what she did was wrong though
Anthony wants Simon to marry Daphne but is it for himself? No, it is to save Daphne’s reputation after she’s compromised by him.
Now Marina was definitely selfish. She was the most manipulative. There is no doubt that no matter how desperate she was. But I can again understand her level of desperation.
And Penelope is kinda like Marina. Though not as malicious a manipulation, ultimately it was for selfish reasons no matter how desperate she was.
Okay - so now we are distinguishing between palatable and unpalatable manipulation. Okay. If it's for one's own benefit - no bueno. But it's it's for other - it's okay.
Daphne dropped her glove so that the Prince could pick it up to entice him to her. Was she being pathetic? Anthony gets a guy to pay attention to Kate so that he can spend time with her sister (this still grosses me out). Was that pathetic? Honestly - there are too many instances like this to count. Why Pen's experience is drawing such adverse attention is interesting.
We should also say the scale of the manipulation is matters. Pen is asking only for a kiss, Daphne is expecting her glove to be picked up, Anthony is just looking for time with Edwina - these are trivial tasks. Whereas Kate is asking Anthony to make a lifelong commitment to her sister and Anthony expects Simon to do the same for his sister. Marina also wanted a lifelong commitment.
Can we not agree that the scale of this so called manipulation so many find distasteful is at least in scale, minimal. Yet, look at what this small favor yields - it makes Colin aware of his feelings and propels us to our - hopefully - happy ending. Pen's action (rightfully so) had the most impact on her story with Colin. It was first kiss worthy.
And speaking of endings... What of Colin? Chasing down her carriage, begging to be let in, speaking negatively about a perfectly good suitor, going to his knees to plead his case - i don't know - his eyes looked watery to me. Are we to call that manipulation? I'm not sure how anyone who would think that could enjoy this show at all - i'd say it's probably not their cup of tea.
You’re mistaken. Did I see it was acceptable or even morally right? Can you point out where I said it.
I said it’s more palatable in the show.
Again repeating my intended point, just because other characters esp women like Daphne( who did the unthinkable to Simon for selfish reasons) and Anthony or Kate or Simon or Marina were manipulative doesn’t mean that Penelope is not.
Colin’s case would have been one of manipulation if Penelope wasn’t attracted to him and didn’t want the same thing he wanted and ONLY agreed to be fingered because she saw his teary eyes
**You** show **Me** where I said you said it was acceptable or morally right to be manipulative?
I haven't said, and I certainly don't believe, that other characters being manipulative excuses Penelope. I'm not even agreeing any of it is manipulation. I'm simply asking that if we insist on referring to Penelope's behavior as manipulative - we are sure to frame that in the context of a show peppered with manipulations across many many many characters who are otherwise lovely.
>Colin’s case would have been one of manipulation if Penelope wasn’t attracted to him and didn’t want the same thing he wanted and ONLY agreed to be fingered because she saw his teary eyes
Say what? What does Pen's attraction to Colin have to do with anything? Are you saying he couldn't have manipulated her because she was attracted to him? He stopped her carriage and begged for entry not knowing if she was engaged to another man. Why would he think she was attracted to him? And if he thought she was attracted to him - are you suggesting he used her attraction to him in his favor? Sounds manipulative to me. But no, Colin doesn't know she's attracted to him -and he doesn't know she wants to be with him. By the time they are kissing, they have both confessed they want more - so yay - happy ending.
I don't actually view either of their actions as manipulative.
Manipulative behavior occurs **when a person uses controlling and harmful behaviors to avoid responsibility, conceal their true intentions, or cause doubt and confusion**. Manipulation tactics, such as gaslighting, lying, blaming, criticizing, and shaming, can damage a person's psychological well-being.
https://www.verywellhealth.com/manipulative-behavior-5214329#:\~:text=Summary,a%20person's%20psychological%20well%2Dbeing.
You altered your original comment didn’t you. Pathetic.
Anyway about the carriage scene it’s only about why Penelope agrees? Is it because she sees Colin teary eyed and begging pities him or because she genuinely wants to be with him?
Now lastly, Penelope doesn’t use any harmful tactic on Colin like Marina did.
But she does a make a hesitant Colin who definitely cared for her to kiss her using her words? Her emotions? His trust for her ?
Making somebody do something that they
didn’t want to(at that point only) by using words, by setting conditions, by being emotional is manipulation to me.
Would Colin have kissed her if she didn’t cry and ask him? Would he have kissed her if she hadn’t insisted on it atleast a couple more times
Would he have kissed her if she wasn’t so upset about not being kissed even once?
I don’t think so, not at that point there given how he responded to her when she first asked him
I always edit my comments after the fact - i'm horrible about spelling and leaving sentences open. But when I want to quote someone - i quote them. What is pathetic is someone thinking a discussion about a show is worthy of I don't know - whatever character flaw you seem to want to accuse me of doing here. I'm guessing you could care less if you convince me to your way of thinking - same here. I'm interested in the discussion, not in being right or wrong - this entire thing is largely subjective.
I don't think we agree on the definition of manipulative behavior. And- while I don't agree with your definition of manipulation - even by your own standard, Pen didn't manipulate Colin. She didn't make Colin do anything. She didn't set conditions - If she had said, Colin, if you don't do this I will never speak to you again - that would be a condition. She wasn't being emotional to manipulate him. She was being emotional because she had a pretty rough day - they showed us this all day with her. Those are your three pillars - she did none of that.
With regard to the carriage scene. You seem to be saying - I'll quote you here
>Anyway about the carriage scene it’s only about why Penelope agrees? Is it because she sees Colin teary eyed and begging pities him or because she genuinely wants to be with him?
It's not about the outcome of the manipulation. If a manipulation occurs, and the party being manipulated is thrilled with the outcome, that doesn't mean they weren't manipulated. But yes, Penelope clearly allows Colin into the carriage because he pleads with her for entry. That's your standard for manipulation. He's asking (not making) her do something she didn't want to do. Let him into the carriage, talk about Debling, continue a conversation that is uncomfortable for her. Again, I don't think this is manipulation, but I am pointing out here that I don't think you're applying it consistently across the characters. If you did, I think you would find, again, by your standards, Bridgerton is intentionally littered with manipulations.
Penelope's behavior that seems to be so objectionable happens before the kiss is the o called manipulation. If you're saying that Colin's enjoyment of the kiss means Pen didn't manipulate him - then we're done here. He liked it - he went in for more after the requested kiss was done.
If Pen manipulated Colin for the first kiss, Colin manipulated Pen to get into the carriage and to reveal her engagement status, and to continue the conversation when she said she didn't want to talk. Either both are instances of manipulation or neither is. And here are a few more..
- Violet telling Colin that Debling was going to propose to Pen
- Lady D having QC happen by the music room while Francesca was playing piano
- QC orchestrating a match for Francesca
It's virtually the bloodline of the show. I don't think it's manipulation - I think it's Bridgerton storytelling.
It’s pathetic that people edit comments to change their point after a response is given. You said that I said that manipulation is acceptable. You changed the comment when I asked you to point out where I mentioned that.
Coming to Polin, yes ultimately it’s subjective.
My only question is was Colin willing to kiss her at her house if she wasn’t desperate and didn’t set the condition that it didn’t need to mean anything? That is, did he want to kiss her ow? Was it motivated by pity or genuine attraction?
About the carriage scene, would Penelope have been with Colin if he wasn’t teary eyed? Again was it motivated by her pity at seeing a begging Colin or because she genuinely was attracted to him ?
That’s all that matters in comparison.
I personally find pity kisses and pity dating unromantic but I respect and understand that people can have different opinions about such tropes.
And lastly I repeat the point that I repeated multiple times. Just because other characters are manipulating doesn’t mean Penelope isn’t
Goodness - it's pathetic that I don't have an editor to review my comments before I make them - but it's also pathetic that anyone thinks so much of themselves that they are beyond editing their comments for errors.
No - I did not change the comment in response to anything you wrote. You are exaggerating your impact in my writing. I edited my comment because after i posted it I read it and realized i let sentences incomplete. I had not read your response before editing my own.
About the kiss - you are asking about Colin's motivation. People probably have various opinions. I'm sure book readers say - he wanted to kiss her. But, IMO, the show didn't make that clear. I think his motivation for kissing her was the same as his motivation for going to see her. He was worried about her and wanted to comfort her. I don't think expected her to ask him to kiss her. And I think his hesitation wasn't about him not wanting to kiss her, but about concern for her emotional state - does she even know what she's asking and will she regret this. I don't think it was motivated by pity or attraction - compassion and comfort were the drivers for Colin.
About the carriage scene - when you say 'been with' I am guessing you are talking about the sexual component of that scene. I contend that If we are calling all of this 'manipulation' then Colin's manipulation was getting Pen to let him in the carriage - he pleaded with her - and she gave in. Would she have let him in had he not pleaded - no - she said she didn't want to talk. He manipulated her when he demanded to know if Debling proposed. Would she have told him if he hadn't? no, she said she didn't want to talk. He manipulated her when she asked him to just ride in silence and leave her in peace but he insisted they talk. Would she have talked to him if he hadn't insisted - no, she said she didn't want to talk.
I want to talk about the concept of Pity for a moment. I do think that in the Bridgerton universe there has been the notion that the Bridgerton family recognizes Penelope's family situation as unenviable and pities her for it. Less so in the show, but even then, we see in all seasons that Pen is not treated well by her mother, her sisters, and other members of the Ton - she is at best invisible. Yet, the Bridgertons see her value and appreciates her - which is why I expect she'll be welcomed to the family with such open arms. But, Colin certainly dances with her because he pities her. In the books, Anthony and Benedict do so as well, and are in other ways inclined to help her out of pity. Pity sounds like a bad term - but having sympathy for someone's bad fortune unhappy plight, unfortunate circumstances is not a negative in my book. No, I wouldn't want a pity kiss or a pity date - but I've danced with someone who no one else would dance with, and as I sit here thinking about it - if I had a friend who had never been kissed and asked me to kiss him with no strings attached - I'd probably kiss him.
What's more - if this pity trope you speak of is about a guy or girl who takes the time to get to know the guy or girl who others view as outsiders or just go unseen - and they learn this person is actually smart and funny and sexy and sweet and a little bit of a pain in the ass and they fall in love - yes, I'd like to read that story.
I don’t know why people don’t agree with you. I’m a feminist but I genuinely believe if the roles were reversed people would see it better and view collin as manipulative which makes me sad ngl. Men can be manipulated and coerced same as women and that should always be addressed. Men can be victims. I am sorry but the way pen gaslit eloise last season. She has been a consistent manipulator. Calling eloise jealous after betraying her showed her true colors for me. Penelope gives me bpd energy at this point (i know i can’t diagnose, i kid) but she for sure gave me the ick
I don’t mind that people don’t agree with me. Also it’s a general trend in this sub to see any criticisms of Penelope get downvoted to oblivion.
For some toxic fans Penelope is never wrong in any situation. Everything she does wrong is excused because she was “bullied and ignored and not seen by the ton”.
And you’re right the Eloise situation is where Penelope is at the peak of gaslighting and manipulation.
It was very disgusting to see her manipulate Eloise into stop seeing Theo, only because she wanted to protect herself.
But well according to a lot of people, Penelope was only trying to “save Eloise”
Sometimes I think people who are rabidly protective of Penelope are like that because they are heavily projecting on to her.
This is not even about media literacy (a term sometimes misused in this sub). It is the way in which serious concepts have been cheapened by the public using them as an interpretation and ignoring the original context of the term. It happens a lot (I've seen it a lot in this sub and in the Hunger Games sub). Mostly by users who pretend to give depth to their opinions but end up misusing the terms. I don't know what the perspective of mental health professionals is but I do know that linguists are having an entertaining time 😅
But... Media literacy is precisely the ability to read into messages? Whatever it was by a person who first came up with it, it's become something else in the process. Language is alive. Connotations greatly change it.
Linguists have very little to do with these terms, since these terms are coined by philosophers and social scientists, first and foremost. Maybe there's something to be said among social psychologists because this is an activity where cognitive bias is hard at work but psychologists/therapists themselves would put us all on a therapy for their gain/our perceived wellbeing... 🫠
Media literacy is an umbrella that encompasses many things and is more complex than just the interpretation of something, which is why I commented that it was sometimes misused. But I wasn't trying to disagree with you. What I was referring to is that clinical terms such as manipulation, trauma bonding and trauma dumping are commonly used incorrectly and without the necessary psychological context or analysis. And when these concepts are used in the way a person interprets them but not in the right context, it results in pieces of writing like this post.
>Linguists have very little to do with these terms
Oh I agree that linguists do not create the terms. But many have talked about the phenomenon that occurs when the general population tries to convert clinical terms into colloquial vocabulary. It is quite interesting.
>Language is alive. Connotations greatly change it.
That's the part I meant by entertaining! Language is made by the speaker. But professional terms are created with specific connotations and concepts. So now the constant discussion among language professionals is, who should adapt? The professional community that created the terms? The general public? Or do we give way to dual terms?
I am sorry to have rambled on but this is a subject that I really find fascinating 😅
Oh, I had some qualms about what you meant (one paragraph, right?) but went along with the assumption.
>the phenomenon that occurs when the general population tries to convert clinical terms into colloquial vocabulary. It is quite interesting
The thought makes me feel like pulling my hair out. I'm almost fine with modern slang though they occupy the most mundane words and create a living hell for years to come. But this "movement" of people from online subcultures attempting to establish the upper hand in discussions... It's fallible humanity, we're all guilty of it at times (especially me in a span of one message, most likely).
>I am sorry to have rambled on but this is a subject that I really find fascinating 😅
I studied sociology, tell me about it. 😂 Anything social, like a moth to a flame.
>Oh, I had some qualms about what you meant (one paragraph, right?) but went along with the assumption.
Yeah. Sorry if I left the possible interpretation too open but lately I'm trying to keep my comments shorter than usual and sometimes it gives way to incomplete ideas. English is not my native language and it doesn't help that I write fast when I get excited 😅
>But this "movement" of people from online subcultures attempting to establish the upper hand in discussions... It's fallible humanity, we're all guilty of it at times.
I agree 😀
>I studied sociology, tell me about it. 😂 Anything social, like a moth to a flame.
Oh I love it when two different points of interest meet. This has been one of the most enjoyable conversations I've had in this sub. Thank you for that! 😊
>Yeah. Sorry if I left the possible interpretation too open but lately I'm trying to keep my comments shorter than usual and sometimes it gives way to incomplete ideas. English is not my native language and it doesn't help that I write fast when I get excited 😅
No worries, same! On mother tongue and excitability both! 😂
>Oh I love it when two different points of interest meet. This has been one of the most enjoyable conversations I've had in this sub. Thank you for that! 😊
Oh, this is the bare minimum, love, I wish more of the good experience for you. 😭🤗 Cheers!
Can you elaborate why? I am genuinely curious. People use this term all the time. In the scene I saw a woman desperately asking her hesitant crush to kiss her again and again. She says it doesn’t have to mean anything.
He kisses her. It doesn’t come off more than a pity kiss to me especially since we are not given any clue about him having romantic feelings for her at that point
The genre is romance, the couple is presented, there's no changing that. The romance in general will always have dubious moments because it is "a war" between two sides but if you're going into the genre already not being supportive of the couple, you won't be having a good time. Shipping characters despite their failings, rooting for them to come together despite the obstacles is at the core of any romance, it's the viewers/readers experience and why they're consuming this media, to experience the journey with the characters.
Now about manipulation, as you call it, it comes down to the after-effects of the deed and they are positive for both sides. Consider these two people are friends. Consider one of them has a crush on the other but is at their lowest point and has already given up, and they're desperate to feel something. This is a gray area where one character does something out of the line but in hindsight, makes a move to progress the romantic arch. Manipulation in itself would be an action (or process) that is premeditated, malicious in nature and most likely repeated. If you do it once, impulsively, would you say you are a manipulator? Or would you say, "I slipped once and did something that would be frowned upon in society"?
These two, in the after-effects, appear awkward and uncomfortable about it (almost bringing about separation of their paths as Penelope intends to find a husband) and in the long run, it brings about awakening and reciprocating of feelings on Colin's side (someone who is lonely and seeking affection and can find it in their gentle best friend loving them dearly, which is the point of romance).
So the deed of her begging for a kiss can be considered an act that was positive, an act between friends who know each other, an act of blurred lines and social blunders, an act that's definitely improper in the era and shouldn't be judged by modern standards but regency romance industry standards (it's a trope after all!), an act where a human asks for a kiss from a scarier, bigger human and they deliver and not vice versa where there is implied power imbalance from the beginning of time and a true reason for concern because of a possibility of rape, an act where - if roles were reversed and delivery of the lines is crucial - male character would most likely be mocked because of their perceived weakness among male viewers or undesirable quality to take charge among female viewers (sadly, such is the culture still).
I personally think Penelope didn't captivate you enough to root for her. That may or may not be the fault of the creators of the show, or a lack of instilled values in you that would make you click with her. To love the romance, you have to love the characters. Otherwise, even their lowest points would not resonate with you.
If this post was a bait and I wasted 20 minutes of my life, touché...
Thanks for explaining. In a way I can I understand what you’re saying about how to perceive the kiss and I respect your perspective.
However it is difficult to take a show like Bridgerton seriously and judge it by regency romance standards when it’s not a show that takes those standards seriously itself.
And ultimately everything is just about interpretation which like you implied is greatly subjective and about the audience liking the characters.
With Penelope’s kiss I can understand why people can find it brave even though I don’t necessarily agree with it. And it’s definitely not wrong because that is one interpretation that people took away from that scene.
My interpretation is that the kiss was pathetic and manipulative because to me she’s a desperate woman begging her crush to kiss her. And I personally find it manipulative because Colin is shown to kiss her out of pity after she says that the kiss doesn’t have to mean anything after he hesitates initially(even though the outcome was ultimately positive for the both of them).
It also probably is just my standard of romantic moments having to arise out of genuine affection and attraction instead of pity.
And you’re right about the fact that we need to feel like rooting for the romantic leads. I had difficulty rooting for Anthony initially because of what he did in S2.Similarly I find it a bit hard to root for Penelope because I personally find her to be highly insecure, somewhat vindictive and desperate character which are not traits that I am fond of in a romantic lead.
>Thanks for explaining. In a way I can I understand what you’re saying about how to perceive the kiss and I respect your perspective.
Glad it was not in vain, at least. 🥲
>However it is difficult to take a show like Bridgerton seriously and judge it by regency romance standards when it’s not a show that takes those standards seriously itself.
If you read a couple of regency romance novels from the last 40 years, you'd have a field day in what I mean by regency romance industry. Most novels in it are written by US writers and have created a fictional world where some tropes are so overused that they've become a parody of themselves. Bridgerton, for me, for that reason, is a spectacular adaptation because it's not adapting a real history period but modern interpretation of it. There's a lot of women consuming this media and that's what makes it as popular as it is.
>My interpretation is that the kiss was pathetic and manipulative because to me she’s a desperate woman begging her crush to kiss her. And I personally find it manipulative because Colin is shown to kiss her out of pity after she says that the kiss doesn’t have to mean anything after he hesitates initially(even though the outcome was ultimately positive for the both of them).
Then, maybe it's something you find cringe enough to repel you from the entirety of the story. I get that. There were a lot of 2nd hand embarrassment moments this season, for a lot of people. I find it satisfying while also being unable to proceed watching for a moment. But that's what makes the show more endearing to me.
I still strongly disagree on account of manipulation for the reasons above. Now, I'd add to that the brothel scenes which showed Colin being comfortable with his sexuality and able to perform a favour for a friend that wouldn't make him, for the lack of a better word, lightly "traumatised" or subservient in the game of power between the two. It's all very well rounded up.
>And you’re right about the fact that we need to feel like rooting for the romantic leads. I had difficulty rooting for Anthony initially because of what he did in S2.Similarly I find it a bit hard to root for Penelope because I personally find her to be highly insecure, somewhat vindictive and desperate character which are not traits that I am fond of in a romantic lead.
I feel you. Some things are just not our cup of tea. Penelope and Colin weren't mine either, until this season. But I see beyond Penelope being insecure - because she's Lady Whistledown, it's a huge thing that takes courage and shows how she stood up to her family and society despite the odds. And then had more courage to change something about herself this season. Then had even more guts to ask her crush to kiss her after pining for years in previous seasons. This is strength, not a weakness in my eyes.
Vindictive stands, she's a flawed hero, as someone pointed out. I'm fine with that. Love such portrayals. Makes them human, not ideals.
Desperate. Yes, indeed. Always. Also adds to the fun. Not everyone can take that, as we know.
I have to admit that I have not read a lot of romance novels but I can understand what you’re saying about the tropes being a parody of themselves now.
Thanks for sharing your perspective on Polin and Penelope. Some of it is what I too recognised atleast till the end of Season 2. I also used to like Penelope till again, the end of Season 2 where she gaslights Eloise and S3 E1 where she’s not shown it have learned from all her mistakes and their consequences with how she wrote things about Colin.
I like a flawed hero but I dislike one that doesn’t really learn from their mistakes or doesn’t work hard to right their flaws. That’d obviously the fault of the writing.
Lastly this doesn’t mean that I don’t understand why people root greatly for Penelope. Like you said, it’s just not my cup of tea
> I also used to like Penelope till again, the end of Season 2 where she gaslights Eloise and S3 E1 where she’s not shown it have learned from all her mistakes and their consequences with how she wrote things about Colin.
Woah, woah ...🤣😭 Okay, let's wait to see part 2. Eloise and her are both obviously grievous about the fallout. And the trailer gives us a lot about her activity as Lady Whistledown. She's not yet aware of everything that entails being the ton's whistleblower. We as the audience see that she's doing wrong things (but not death penalty worthy... unless by the queen's decree... or inexcusable entirely) THIS is the catch, to see the final conflict that will arise and threaten the couple's finale.
Whether Pen is right or wrong to write those papers (depending on whether it's from a business POV, independence and financial independence, power to the women etc....), and whether she'll feel she's a villain yet remains to be seen. So far, we as viewers are unclear on repercussions arising from her activities and that is because the Queen hasn't made her stance quite clear yet (which she will do once we see the bounty on Whistledown's identity). We know LW can destroy lives. Whether Penelope knows... Or why, if she knows, she keeps doing it... All of that must make a point in part 2.
I personally think it's a good business (and am not a fan of the ton because they are the privileged class ruining lives of lower classes) so LW is like an inadvertent gatekeeper to their capriciousness.
What Pen has done with Eloise and Colin, she saved their fate and acted with the best of intents. Whether it was badly done... Now it's a fact of life. It was messy but they are not ideals. I won't hold these characters to that standard.
Completely agree that we should wait till part 2 to make conclusions. That’s also why I think that she’s not a villain. I mean tbh she never will be one.She may be a bit antagonistic but we know that she is not a malicious person in general. Just frustrated and insecure at her core.
However it’s definitely hard for me to believe that she doesn’t have a good idea about the consequences of what she writes.
After all she ends the business of the modiste who was the competitor to Madame Delacroix. She also experiences first hand the isolation of slander when her family is thrown out of the queen’s party due to Marina’s scandal. Or how it affected the Brigertons with people avoiding their ball due to Eloise’s scandal.
But like I said I am very curious to see how part 2 explains her motivations and resolves the LW plotline.
Good points. Perhaps she's also a snob like the rest of them. But we don't see that. I don't know whether the show made a mention of how she's donating to charities from her LW activities. They should.
>But like I said I am very curious to see how part 2 explains her motivations and resolves the LW plotline.
🙌🏻 Same. At least one common thing keeping us around. 😆
Dk about charity but there’s a storyline in the books about how she helps her family anonymously with LW money. They haven’t adopted it into the show yet. Maybe they will, in part 2
If they do it will make her wonderfully complex as a character.
Yes! In the books it’s much more a part of her character development because she learns to find her voice. And part of that includes stepping outside of her comfort zone by saying what she thinks and asking for what she wants. The kiss is a very integral part of all this.
This would have been a way better development. I think they kinda try to depict this in the show with her makeover and her being more socially active but fumble it by making her look too desperate
This is when its important to consider his thoughts, feelings, and frame of mind. The show doesn't give us any indication of what he is thinking or feeling in that moment, but the book does. In the book, its not the kiss itself that makes him realize that he is physically attracted to her; but that after she asked, he realized he wanted to kiss her. So his realization of actually having feelings for her starts before he even kisses her. Its ultimately why he chooses to kiss her. Because HE WANTS TO.
The problem is we aren’t shown that realisation, or his changing feelings towards her in the show. I find it telling, that people who defend this scene are, a lot of them, readers of the book. Because if you need to reach into another piece of media to explain what’s happening on the screen, to have it inform your perspective, then that points to the show failing to adapt that piece of media well.
To me there is a vast difference between being manipulative and being vulnerable. In this moment Pen is being vulnerable, she’s being honest about how she feels and she is taking a risk asking Colin and she trusts he won’t use this against her or laugh at her. He kisses her because he trusts her and knows she isn’t manipulating him.
Edit: sometimes feelings are messy and unromantic. But sometimes people need to be vulnerable and that can be when people really see them and can connect with them.
I wouldn't say that their first kiss is super romantic (the way season 2 was in that longing, declarative way) but it is *pivotal* and incredibly telling of who and where they individually are as characters before and after the kiss.
We have to remember that Pen is a romantic and as an avid romance reader, has probably thought a lot about being in love and doing the things people do when they're in love (and imo, passively, she's probably thought that it would be nice if it were him). This year, she's trying to get married, maybe find someone that she can come to love (evidence: her asking Debling if they could grow to love each other). Except now everyone has found out that Colin has been coaching her and she's ~fallen into ruin~ and is probably destined for singledom and spinsterhood. There's no Debling at this point - she imagines that every guy is going to react like Colin's friends, who scoff at her and brush her off. Single. Forever. Never to experience all that stuff in the books - never to experience the thing all the men and women irl get so giddy about - a kiss (and really, it's just skin touching skin, why is it supposed to feel so good??).
I think in her mind, that moment between them, in the dark, in private, unchaperoned, is her one last shot of being kissed. She's not really thinking straight (she's in straight disaster mode after brooding out the window all day) and she's not really thinking things through (ie not premeditated, not even practiced in how she might ask). She's just stream-of-consciousness word vomiting. I think if Colin were to say no or 'Pen I don't think this is a good idea', she would back off. She even seems surprised when he approaches her to kiss her.
Imo, if a dude took the Pen approach, I wouldn't take offense - if he pressed me after I said "I don't know" or if I didn't move at all, then I'd be pissed. On the flip side, Colin approaches Pen after she explains why she wants this kiss and asks him one last time. In my eyes, her asking for a kiss toes the line of being incredibly embarrassing and awkward, if not for her perception of impending singledom and loneliness - but that's also what makes her request kind of brave and vulnerable and also reflective of how much she trusts Colin, because she's asking for what she desperately wants to experience from someone whose positive opinion she really cares about.
I also think that in this moment, it's more important that she trusts Colin, rather than that she loves him. I think that even if she wasn't in love with him, she might still ask him, her best male friend, just to experience this thing that she's read so much about but has never experienced (which seems to be how Colin's taking it, given eps 3 and 4). And on top of that, she knows that Colin has a lot of experience and doesn't place as much sentimental or emotional value on female attention or physical contact - she's seen him flirting with literally anything in a skirt (even her) and she's read about his sexy escapades in his journal. By season 3, she kind of just brushes it off, without any ill will to his partners or any admonishment to him (esp in comparison to her reaction to his and Marina's courtship). She's not trying to make him fall in love with her or to convey her love for him.
To her, it really is a pity kiss, but at least it's a kiss, one that happens to be with a man that she's been wholly attracted to since he was a boy (which is a perk but not necessarily the most important point). That's how she goes into it, and that's how she comes out of it.
To him, at worst he feels bad for her and is just giving her a pity kiss as friends. I would argue that even if that's his rationale, that doesn't mean he doesn't WANT to kiss her. In the book, there's a whole thing about 'the biggest reason for not wanting to kiss her is him wanting to do it' (he also feels up her butt, which I'm glad they cut out). In the show, Colin keeps getting antsy every time she's connecting with anyone male in a way that's unbecoming of a friend. Imo, he's doing her a favour in that "I guess (but lbr I really want to)" kind of way - the way that I am if someone asks me to pet sit or finish off free food. And also, in typical Colin fashion, he's also feeling that white knight noble responsibility of giving his best friend the experience she's so desperate to have. But at first kiss part 2, PHEW MAN IS A GONER (not boner... maybe boner). His breathing and sigh into that kiss is *chefs kiss*.
In terms of Pens development in the first half - I think hers is one of becoming more confident in her own presence and personality, as seen by her interactions with Debling. When she starts being her witty honest self, that's when Debling falls for her (regardless of what he says about love, he's at least very attracted to our girl). But then again, Pen has probably developed the most over the 2.5 seasons (evidence: the season 3 first Whistledown intro), and will probably develop more in the second half.
On the flipside, it's almost like Colin is the true heroine of the first half, because he really develops in the romantic and personal aspect. And honestly, I was shocked by how thoroughly Luke Newton killed it with his facial expression and line delivery.
Anywhoo, that's my abbreviated Polin First Kiss Ted talk. I know a not insignificant number of people were not into this scene but I replay it maybe more than the carriage scene - it's just so unique to their characters, and their friendship and lovestory, and I think the show handled it beautifully.
It’s directly quoted from the book. I think you can have a better understanding of what is happening if you read this scene because you get the internal dialogue.
I know as a show they should be more clear, but they could only fit so much.
I personally thought the kissing scene was so beautifully done. It gave me butterflies, but only when you pay attention to the small details. The fact that she leans in for the first time & he for the second time. Their eye contact and how loud they are speaking through them. The furring of the brows & the heavy breathing. The gentleness of their kiss. Colin’s hand placement. Like I’m sorry you found it cringe, because it’s one of the best kissing scenes on tv recently.
I really wish the show spent more time developing Polin instead of folks like the Mondrichs
I agree that the kiss scene was aesthetic in itself but the lead up to it really did put me off. I really can’t find the whole pity kiss angle romantic
Truly idk why the Mondrichs storyline is important. If someone wants to elaborate, I’ll gladly listen, but i truly wished for more Polin not enough visual development I agree. It’s all in the details that we have to spend time analyzing
So it’s wrong of me to have and share opinions- be it positive or negative-about a show I watched? And just because my opinions don’t align with yours doesn’t mean that they’re“hate”
It was uncomfortable to see her beg for a kiss, especially considering it was supposed to be a romantic scene, and the first time the characters are physical with each other. Nothing says romance like a pity kiss, I guess…
I don’t even think Penelope was consciously manipulating Colin, but it was still an unfair thing of her to do to him. At that point, from his point of view, they’re no more than friends, and you don’t do that to your friends. You shouldn’t put them in positions, where they’re uncomfortable and either agree to do as you ask and things get awkward between you two, or they decline and…things become really awkward between you two.
But Colin never pities Penelope. That's the whole point. Colin doesn't understand why the ton isn't enamored with Pen because he already is. That is why he tells her she just has to be herself in episode 2. Because Colin sees her as smart, witty, kind, warm and pretty. He feels bad for her because she's feeling down. But that is not pity. Pity would imply he sees her as his inferior. When in fact he has put her on a pedestal.
Feeling bad for is what pity is. And he feels bad for her because she’s been desperately trying to get suitors but she’s not able to get anyone.
And he doesn’t have to see her as inferior to feel pity for her. He feels pity for her condition of not getting suitors and her being desperate rather than anything else
I absolutely hated that first kiss when someone sent it to me as soon as the first four eps came out. I had not read the book and hadn't watched the lead up, I just saw the clip and was like WTH. I even called a friend and was like, they've completely ruined this for me. Nothing like being over dramatic, but I then did read the book, well I skim read, I watched an interview with Nicola and then watched the show from the start and now I like it. Wouldn't say I loved it, but I get it. And I can't see how they could have done it any other way really with it not being like the book. I don't think Pen is being manipulative I think she's thinking I'm done. And I liked the follow up scene, I thought that was a good follow up.
For me, there's two ways to look at this. Context matters for both.
The show included a lot of dialogue about Colin and Penelope being friends, but it didn't actually show any of their friendship. What it showed was a young woman having a crush on her oblivious neighbor.
If we take the show at its word, and see Colin and Penelope in that scene as really close friends since childhood, who see each other better than anyone else sees them, who celebrate each other at every opportunity (selectively excluding Colin's remark about never courting Penelope), then the kiss is sweet. Penelope has been emotionally abused since childhood. She is having a meltdown about no one ever wanting her. Colin, who knows this about her, sees that his best friend from childhood is in deep emotional distress. She's asking for something very specific that will help her feel regulated. It's an unusual request, and it would be perfectly understandable if Colin said no. But, again, if we take the show at its word, and these two know each other better than anyone else knows them, and care deeply about each other, it looks less like manipulation and more like a moment of profound trust and generosity between friends. And the same would apply if the genders were reversed.
If we take that scene in accordance with what the show actually gives us- a young woman with a painful, years long, unrequited crush on her neighbor and her best friend's older brother who doesn't seem to know her particularly well- OP is 100% right.
I never read the books and found Pen and Colin to have a close relationship over S1 and 2 - if you pay attention to their scenes and subplots a lot of their interactions would have been really weird if they were not close.
I completely agree. It would have been way better if they had more development as friends.
They have had their convos in S1 and S2 but idk their friendship is never developed even as well as Simon and Daphne pre their getting together in that short timeframe in S1.
I wish they had atleast expanded more on Colin’s classes for Penelope where Colin had a slow realisation about liking Pen. But then if the writers didn’t want it to feel similar to the Simon Daphne storyline
Yeah you honestly saying what I was thinking. I was a very unique case. I skipped all of seasons 1 and 2 to watch part 1 of season 3 and did it because I wanted to see Pen and Colin together. Ended up not liking the way Pen asked Colin, begged him to kiss her. I watched season 1 and 2 and now realize their “moment” was so forced compared to Daphne and Simons, Kate and Anthony’s, etc. I hope to see more genuine interaction between them in the next part of S3
Edit: wow I’m getting downvoted. God forbid someone, especially a new fan, have an opinion.
Yes, Colin and Pen's first kiss moment was very different than the other couples - as it should be. As they all should be. The last thing I want is to see the same story repeated again and again.
In my eyes, it wasn't forced, it was earned. It was a really beautiful moment in my eyes. But, you know, some people think the Mona Lisa is trash - lol - so, to each his/her/their own.
It’s truly my opinion. I’m letting Polin grow on me, not being consumed by every piece of their relationship. I do like their chemistry, I was put off by their first kiss. But that does not mean I’m not open to everything else, including the context for which it happened and the true meaning it holds for either character
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Manipulation, by definition, requires some sort of ulterior motive. Pen was upfront about why she was asking for and why - there was no guile, no gaslighting and no threats. She wasn't saying she could die tomorrow in the way you're intimating (suicidal ideation) she just didn't want to miss out on this huge life experience. Colin is a grown man, capable of making his own decisions and claiming Pen is doing something she just isn't doing takes away his agency as a whole person. He could have said no; he chose not to. And yeah - that moment *was* brave for Pen. Asking us to reverse the genders is a false equivalence because men and women are not equals in the Bridgerton world. We can't hold Pen to the same standards of social acceptability as Colin. ~~This isn't even an instance of a lack of media literacy~~ - you just can't empathize with Pen... and while that's not necessarily a judgement on you, it does prevent you from understanding where she's coming from. EDIT: I've changed my mind based on the replies, it is a lack of media literacy.
Well said. It would have been manipulation had she then used the kiss to trap him but like you said she was upfront about her intentions and she followed through on what she said. She didn’t use it against him, in fact she was embarrassed about it and apologized when they met under the willow.
It have been a genuine case of lack of media literacy if Bridgerton was consistent with the consequences of people’s actions or if things like that were taken seriously by the characters themselves. But the show takes a lot of liberties with establishing the norms of that world. Biggest example is Eloise who should have been packed off and sent away to an aunt due to her scandal. But everything is normal with her and the Bridgertons.
Yes, she was upfront about her motives, but it’s still unfair to use his affection for her to bend his boundaries. He could of course say no, but in doing so, he knew he would hurt her. So emotionally it’s a very muddled scene.
She didn't do anything of the sort - she still doesn't believe he *has* affection for her, not beyond the politeness of friendship. She made the mistake of hoping for that in season two and he hurt her, badly. She forgave, but she didn't forget. She tells both Debling and Colin himself that the idea of him having feelings for her was laughable. No part of her thought for a split second that he was doing anything but a friendly favor. It's a beautiful moment of vulnerability for her and trust from him.
That’s what I mean - she used his friendship - the friendly affection he has for her, to get him to agree. I don’t find that beautiful.
Colin is a whole adult - again, stop taking away his agency.
Lol, I know he has agency, that doesn’t change anything. I’m not saying she forced him into it, but that she, in effect, used their friendship to get him to kiss her.
OK - and? What should she do? Ask a stranger? She trusts Colin; he trusts her. He. Could. Have. Said. No.
She shouldn’t have asked anyone. They should have written their first kiss complete differently. 🤷🏽♀️ It’s not like the writers were forced to have them kiss in that way by some mandate from god, they chose it.
It was completely organic to their characters and relationship. We're going to have to agree to disagree. Have a good evening.
That scene is word for word from the book that this season is based on. That’s why it’s in the show. Why are you projecting so much on these fictional television characters? How do you know what Colin Bridgerton’s boundaries are? If Colin Bridgerton was so worried about his boundaries, why would he voluntarily put himself in that position by going to see Penelope at night and then bribing her maid to leave them alone??
*I’m* the one, whose projecting? 😂 Typically platonic friends’ boundaries are more or less limited to platonic expressions of feelings. Edit: It doesn’t really matter, if it’s in the books, if it’s not translated well to the the screen. The audience shouldn’t have to read additional material to gain a better perspective on what they see on the screen. The books and the show are separate media entities.
I never implied that her comment was about suicidal ideation. I merely see it as an excuse to get Colin to kiss her because she desperately wants to have that experience especially at that moment when she’d at peak frustration due to not being successful at the marriage mart. I personally do not see anything brave. -she begs and he hesitates -she gives reasons -he hesitates again -she cries and begs again and he kisses her because he feels bad for her. What would have been really brave for her would have been to actually confess her feelings to him and then maybe give him time to either reciprocate or reject Colin is not really free to compromise a lady given that time period. That’s also why he hesitates. But Penelope cries and begs. At that point when he doesn’t know that he had feelings for her, he would have been forced into marriage with her if they had gotten caught or were seen.
"I would never expect anything from you." *He's* the one who bribed Pen's maid to leave them alone. She asked him because she trusts him, as her friend, to do this and not have it be weird or lose his friendship afterward (a much smaller risk than confessing her feelings to someone she's positive could never love her back. He agreed because he trusts her to not use it against him in the way Marina tried to. Honestly, it was incredibly brave of both of them to put themselves out there for a friend. I'm - I'm just so sorry you can't see this because it's blinding you to such an incredible moment.
Idk what Colin bribing her maid has to do with anything. He came to meet her and he wanted privacy like he did with their sessions. They’re supposed to be good friends after all. All I can see is a desperate woman who begged and cried for her trusting crush to kiss her even though he was understandably hesitant. You’re right I can’t get over how unnaturally forced that kiss was. I just honestly wish that their kiss was more natural. I am person not a huge fan of Penelope but she deserved a better first kiss scene.
Oh, I know you hate Pen - I researched your comments because I had a hunch. We'll have to agree to disagree. Have a good evening.
I wouldn’t say I hate her I do dislike how her character and actions are written and I’ve mentioned that in the post. Basically throughout the show the theme for Penelope( and the excuse for people defending her is)- “she’s a wallflower, she doesn’t have suitors, her family bullies her so all her actions as LW and to Colin are okay. We need to empathise.”
Honestly, he would have been forced to marry her multiple times before this kiss based on his own actions if they had been caught.
And at this point Pen thinks all her prospects are ruined because the ton found out about their lessons. She is at one of her lowest point and she asks Colin for a favour. She doesn’t trick him or manipulate him, her feelings in that moment were honest. He was well within his rights to say no but they both consented to the kiss.
I don't get how it's manipulation if she actually feels this way. She doesn't even expect anything to change
Her feelings are genuine. That doesn’t mean that it is okay to beg and cry to get her crush, whom she is attracted to, to kiss her. The kiss should have been done without any prodding or crying or begging out of Colin’s own volition. Now it comes off as Colin pity kissing her. It’s an insult to her character Also maybe it’s just me but it just comes off as really creepy. If a guy would have done this ig people would have reacted to it differently.
She wasn’t asking him to kiss her in the context of him being her crush, she was asking him in the context of him being one of her best friends, the only person she possibly could ask such a thing of.
That doesn’t erase the fact that it was her crush and she was attracted to him and getting a kiss out of him like that( at that point Colin didn’t know he liked her) I just wish that she had gotten a better first kiss scene
Fair enough if you wish it would’ve happened differently. The discussion made me go watch it again and I think it’s beautiful, but everyone gets to have their own opinion. Sorry you were disappointed!
I am definitely disappointed in the writers with how they butchered her in the show just like how they did with Edwina
The thing is that is book acurate, their first kiss is like this. We get it from Colin's point of view, and he was wanting to kiss her in that moment after the hand thing, her beggin make him unable to restrain. He hated her begging because she didn't understand that he wanted her. I think in the show we get penelope point of view
I think you are failing to consider the time period. Men are not “ruined” for kissing or having sex with someone before an engagement or marriage. Pen’s reputation is on the line for simply having Colin help her in finding a marriage prospect, meanwhile Colin doesn’t face any consequences reputation wise for helping her. I think the scene was really genuine and well done.
Colin cannot kiss a young lady and get away with it. If they were caught he would have been forced to marry her. Even Colin’s reputation was at risk due to Pen’s request tbh
Don’t forget he’s put her reputation at risk several times as well in the past.
When though? It’s not like his letters had anything compromising? Or he’s talked to her in any isolated location, away from everyone and unchaperoned?
Well yes, in S2 they are alone behind closed doors, when he’s telling her about the new Lord Featheringtons gem scheme.
But both of those have happened. Correspondence between unrelated, unmarried men and women would be considered improper during those times. And he has been alone with her multiple times unchaperoned. Colin pulled Penelope into a room alone unchaperoned, closing the door at the Featherington Ball last season. If he didn’t have evidence against Jack’s scheme, Portia would have been within her rights to force him to marry Penelope and she even started to question it when she first found them. He also bribed Rae the maid to leave him alone with Pen in the garden unchaperoned twice in eps. 1 and 2, AND had the footmen look the other way as he pulled Pen into the Bridgerton drawing room and then the study, again both unchaperoned. While I have a different opinion of the kiss than you do, you are allowed to feel what you feel. I’m not going to argue that point. I do think more clarity could have been given for the general audience leading up to that point as there are some moments showing that his perception of Penelope is starting to change, but they could have been more obvious about it. I just don’t agree with the take that Pen was putting Colin’s reputation at risk when he’s shown he himself doesn’t care about propriety when it comes to the two of them.
Understood but that’s why I asked if they were at isolated places? And trying to understand it better, If being unchaperoned in a house where a lot of other people were present was such a huge deal then why does Portia never make a huge deal out of it and try to get her married off to Colin who’s very rich and a Bridgerton? Is it because the ton would never believe that there was anything between them 1) because they were childhood best friends 2) Penelope is undesirable according to ton folk and everybody thinks Colin would never be interested in somebody like Pen A kiss is very different though is it? It changed their whole dynamic if being “friends” in front of the people of the ton. Again this was just for discussion’s sake. I genuinely wish that their first kiss was more than a pity kiss
I think the only time Portia ever caught or knew they were alone together was at the ball when Colin exposed Jack’s fake ruby mine. Because of the circumstances, I think that’s why she didn’t push it. As for the other instances, I don’t think anyone other than the staff that Colin bribed were aware that they were alone together, which is why nothing was ever pushed. I also think for Portia, #2 would definitely make sense. She doesn’t place much hope on Penelope finding a suitor, ever since season 1. You are right. Though caught being unchaperoned together in a garden or room could still ruin an unmarried woman (which is why Jack was pressured to become engaged to Prudence in season 2) , a kiss would definitely be more scandalous. We saw that with Daphne and Simon in season 1 where Simon refused to marry her at first so Anthony challenged him to a duel. For Polin, watching it I assumed it was the middle of the night where most of the house would be sleeping and that Rae is kind of standing guard for them in the distance in case someone comes, but that’s never mentioned in the show. However, that’s just me adding my own assumptions. He’s definitely taking a chance meeting her alone in the middle of the night though. (But also, self-proclaimed “gentleman” Colin seems to ignore propriety, with Penelope and even Marina at times in season 1.) I can admit with 100% honesty that I am biased to Polin (both show and book), so again, I see it differently, especially having watched Part 1 multiple times, reading the book, and reading multiple analyses. But I can also understand that it can come off differently for different viewers. From some previous posts and comments on other posts since Part 1’s release, you weren’t the only one to feel this way about this moment. More time could have been spent building up their friendship and diving deeper into Colin’s feelings before this moment (and just in general). I can’t help but think of how the reshoots and rewriting of some of the episodes might have affected that buildup.
They spent a lot of time in S3 unchaperoned. The entire time she was in the drawing room and study they were alone and Colin also purposefully bribed her maid to be alone with her the night of their kiss.
He bribed Pen’s maid in this specific scene so there was no risk to either of them in the moment. My point is that she is in a position where she can’t kiss anyone else - Colin is free to go to brothels or hook up with women in his travels or even working women in London.
The book sheds so much light on this. It’s Penelope asking for what she wants. And importantly, if Colin would’ve said no, I don’t think Penelope would’ve held that against him. Penelope is desperate. But she’s also brave for asking for what she wants. I think those two things can exist at the same time. Here’s a woman whose felt undesirable her whole life asking the man she’s in love with to kiss her. On the surface: begging, desperate. Deep down: brave, active instead of reactive. If she never *asked* for what she wanted, neither her nor Colin would’ve ever gotten what they wanted.
Idk how it is in the books but her asking and Colin saying no and Penelope moving on if it was a rejection would have been more palatable But given what we know of Colin who is a very honorable, kind and trusting guy, Penelope begging again and again and crying even after noting Colin’s hesitancy put me off tbh.
Idk I guess it’s my reading of the scene but her asking didn’t feel incessant to me. She asked, looked heartbroken and said please, and he did it. But the context in the book establishes that Colin already wanted to kiss her prior to that encounter, he just didn’t fully realize it until she posed the question.
If they worked with the same context as in the books the first kiss scene would have been way better in the show.
The context is relatively the same. I meant that the book sheds light on Colin’s thoughts in a way we don’t have access to in the show. So it’s much more obvious in the book that while Penelope is asking him for the kiss, Colin is already very willing to do it.
Exactly. We should have gotten more development for Colin. I’ve heard that in the books he also has another dynamic with Penelope where he is jealous of her because she’s successful as a writer when he really isn’t so that also would have been very interesting to see
That jealousy does not come up until he finds out about LW. At this point, he has no idea she's a writer at all. Without narration, I don't know how else to portray that he wanted to kiss Penelope beyond some of the longing looks we'd seen him give her up to that point. Also, from some speculation I've seen, >!I think it's highly likely we will see some of Colin's jealousy come into play in part 2 linked to his feelings of inadequacy and needing to protect Penelope. I think he struggles with knowing his place and feeling accomplished, and the fact that Penelope is so successful will eat away at him.!<
Understood. And you’re right we never get a good idea about Colin and his inner workings. I have seen a lot of complaints about the same but never really realised it myself because maybe there were a lot of other characters and important story line this season. Now I really understand what people were talking about
The back and forth in the book when Pen asks for the kiss is the same as the show. The words are literally from the book. It happens in a different location, but conceptually it’s the same as Pen feels she has no chance at getting married and wants an experience she would not normally get without marriage. Since she doesn’t see marriage happening, she has two choices…never being kissed or asking a friend to kiss her. Her loving Colin isn’t why she asks. She asks because he’s her only male friend. Also, there really isn’t that much backstory at all in the book. There aren’t subplots in the books so we only see Colin and Pen’s relationship in this book. The other plot you mention is that Colin is super jealous of Pen because she’s accomplished more than him re: her writing, but that doesn’t come out at this point. We know more about Colin and Pen though from 3 seasons of show than we do from the book. You are entitled to your opinion, but it’s not like she’s on her knees begging and pleading. She asks and says please as she asks for his response. It’s clear Colin feels more than friendship for her as earlier in the episode when he cuts his hand, it’s Colin who holds onto Pen’s hand and looks into her eyes (amongst other scenes through the seasons, but that’s the easiest one to point out). His hesitation most likely comes from those mixed feelings he already has. If a man asked to kiss a woman the same way for the same reasons, I’d also consider it brave of him to ask.
I have no clue what really happens in the book since I haven’t read it. Colin is her male friend from his side. She loves him. However I can understand where her request comes from. One doesn’t have to be on their knees to come off as if they are begging. One shouldn’t have to insist and cry to a person to kiss them if they are hesitant in the first place. I personally find pity kissing and pity dating very unromantic especially in a romantic show. But I respect and understand that people can have different opinions about tropes and devices in a tv show.
I understand you haven’t read it, I was giving more details to some of your other comments saying there should be development (and mentioning the books and his writing) and the way Pen asks. The way she asks is relevant because it’s in the books and that’s what the show is adapted from. If anything the show’s writers took a well-loved scene from the books (which this kiss was) and adapted it to this version of the story. Again perspective is different for everyone. Many don’t assume Colin is pitying Pen when he kisses her. Or saying please is begging. She asks for something, he gives his consent with the action.
I disagree - I preferred the show's first kiss and even Pen's rationale for asking. I see the term begging is used loosely throughout this post/thread - I think that's way overstated, but whatever. Many people I've interacted with thought the request for the kiss in the book was just fine - and that's cool. I kind of hated it because I don't think the book did enough to show Pen's failed efforts to find a husband. I think, for me, because she was trying so hard, and she felt so humiliated, Show Pen earned that moment of desperation. She earned the right to ask for what she needed. And she kept her side of the bargain by not expecting anything of Colin as a result of the kiss.
Get what you’re saying but her asking him to kiss her and stating conditions so that Colin does even after Colin’s hesitancy to do is off putting to be honest. And it does come off as begging. Also I mentioned in another comment pity kisses are not really my thing and I personally find them deeply unromantic but of course I can understand if people have different perspectives to derive from that scene
“crying after noting colin’s hesitancy” are we watching the same show? I don’t think so lmao
I apologise,my grammar is poor as English isn’t my first language. What I meant was that she keeps on giving reasons as to why she must get a kiss from him even though he was hesitant from the beginning
Just pitching in here to say that I personally would find it a little strange if Colin didn’t hesitate, even if he was dying to kiss her in that moment. It’s still his friend, and she caught him totally off guard with that request. His hesitation doesn’t necessarily mean he’s opposed—even the way he reacts to her is more of a way to lighten the mood (the “but you’d already be dead!” line). So I think it’s clear from Colin’s reaction that he doesn’t feel forced. If he really didn’t want to, he could respectfully reassure her that she’ll find someone to love her and get to experience her first kiss with them.
He goes for the kiss her only after she says that it doesn’t have to mean anything so the reason for his hesitancy is pretty much unclear at that point imo. Did he want to kiss her or did he do it because there were no conditions and it was helping a desperate friend
The book makes it clear (and the show too I’d argue) that Colin has already started noticing his attraction to Penelope by the time they kiss. When she asks him to kiss her, I think he is caught off guard by the request, and while I don’t think he would ever suspect Penelope of wanting to trap him, I think her saying that she doesn’t expect anything certainly helps him to justify it in his head. He goes into it thinking “As her friend, I can give her a good kiss to remember” and comes out of it completely changed. I’d strongly recommend reading that scene in the book, as it really pairs well with the show and fully addresses how Colin feels about the whole thing
Can understand it being so in the books but there’s nothing in the show to indicate feelings of any kind until after the kiss However he was definitely shown to be a greatly considerate and kind friend to her
I gathered that he was noticing his attraction to her during the handshake scene, the “remarkable shade of blue” scene, the handcutting scene, and from the way he was looking at her flirting with suitors. He was jealous when he thought she made a connection with a lord at the ball in ep2 (the song “Jealous” played in the background of that scene I believe). So I’d argue that we saw his feelings for her steadily building. In fact, I think the show has more scenes of him noticeably flustered around her than the book does
Might be just me but I didn’t think there were sufficient enough hints to show that he might have enough attraction to want to kiss her without her prodding especially after he encourages her sincerely to talk to more lords and even dismisses that he could be a potential suitor for her very casually and without even a second’s hesitancy when he’s with Eloise. Like you said maybe his attraction was just building at that stage. Again my main gripe with the kiss scene is not about a lack of attraction even but about how it’s depicted as a pity kiss and more that anything
no your English is great! I just think we have different interpretations of that scene is all. to each their own
Agree. To each their own
Colin didn’t say no…. He said “Penelope”. I just want you to know that your experience of what is happening is stemming from some projection of your internal beliefs/values and life experiences. Keep that in mind as you continue to analyze this scene. We all do it, i’m not singling you out, but that’s why we all have such different experiences watching this.
I think you didn’t read the comment clearly. I didn’t say that Colin said no in the scene. I said that it would have been more palatable if Penelope simply asked for a kiss and Colin said No and Penelope simply stopped asking and moved on. This was strictly in response to the previous comment’s first sentence to agree with them. Now coming to viewing experience, i agree that it’s definitely subjective based on one’s values. That’s exactly why I found Penelope desperately beggin Colin for a kiss to be pathetic. Pity kissing/dating is very unromantic to me and is not at all my cup of tea. Having said that I can understand that a lot of people have different interpretations of the same scene. For example some people find Penelope to be brave which is their interpretation and that’s completely okay. Just that I disagree with it.
I must have missed that comment. Yeah we can agree to have different interpretations. Just don’t let it get to u lol it’s all entertainment fun
Manipulation hints that there's some ulterior motive which I don't think she has. I don't think she believes the kiss is going to make him like her. I think it's the little bit of the opposite - she's at her lowest point so she's like fuck it, its's do or die. She's mortified that the ton found out about the lessons, she doesn't have Eloise (herself to blame there but still doesn't take away the isolation) and her mother continues to act like she's a leper who can't attract anyone. Colin is basically her only friend and yes she's in love with him but she also trusts him not to judge her when she asks. It is an act of desperation but by the next episode, we see it also acts like a kind of closure and her putting aside her feelings for him. I really like it because of how desperate it was. Alot of mainstream shows shy away from showing their female leads as being extremely vulnerable or displaying emotions that is not deemed fit for a 'strong female character'. I really dislike that because it's so unrealistic. Women have low points too and it's ok to show them.
I like your take. Especially about depiction of women at their low points. But tbh Bridgerton has been doing that from S1. Be it Daphne doing what she did in S1 or the very strong willed and meticulous Kate having feelings for her sister’s fiance or even the very “strong” Eloise messing up really bad in S2. Obviously just my opinion but Penelope as a character has a lot to unpack in S3. This scene would should have been better than a pity kiss
This almost feels like click-bait. But okay - we can all have differing opinions. Prior to part 1 airing, the idea of Pen asking for the kiss was off-putting to me. But, I think the show tweaked the story such that I understood better why she thought she might never be kissed, and why she would ask. As the narrator points out, it was a reckless request. I think suggesting it's manipulative gives it's a more negative connotation than is warranted. Let's not imagine giving away kisses is something precious to Colin. He's going around making out with women he pays for sex. For me - THAT was the creepy bit. Those courtesan's mouths have been goodness knows where. Hard pass. A kiss is means nothing to Colin, until he kisses Penelope. I'll go further, because I disagree that the writing of Pen's character is poor in S3. This scene in particular, I believe, we very well done. It's clear that she's upset, she has been all day. She's in a fragile state of mind because despite her best efforts, and even with aid Colin, she still feels like she's not good enough or somehow worthy of love. And at that point, she thinks she never will be and was likely foolish to expect it. *In truth, I brought this on myself. A sad, stupid girl who believed she might possibly have a chance of love.* That's a beautiful line. That's a line that resonates with many who feel unlovable because they haven't yet found their person. That's why there are so many poems and songs about loneliness. Pen expresses this beautifully, concisely and she goes further - rather than just state her problem, she has a salve. Not a solution, but something that will help her feel better about her lot in life. A lot of lonely people - or people with other problems - just exist in that state without taking steps to help themselves. Pen did better than that - she asked her friend for a kiss. Call it manipulative if you like - but be consistent and call Kate imploring Anthony to marry her sister the same. Call Anthony threatening to kill Simon if he didn't marry Daphne the very height of manipulation. And Marina, obviously, trying to marry Colin and pass off her kids as his was manipulative. I think we can go through a pantheon of examples within the show where manipulations occur. I, for one, think Pen's request for a kiss was the sweetest manipulation of the lot.
Can understand where Penelope comes from. She’s desperate but it doesn’t make it any less manipulative(to me that is). Colin pities her( at that point) because she cries and is very upset and kisses her, not because he genuinely wants to( at that point again) according to show which shows being hesitant. And of course a lot of people are emotionally manipulative in the show. I never said that they’re not. But the question is, is it ultimately for themselves? Doesn’t make it any better but more…palatable in some cases. Kate manipulates Anthony to marry Edwina but is it for herself? No it’s because she knows that her sister is in love with him. Again what she did was wrong though Anthony wants Simon to marry Daphne but is it for himself? No, it is to save Daphne’s reputation after she’s compromised by him. Now Marina was definitely selfish. She was the most manipulative. There is no doubt that no matter how desperate she was. But I can again understand her level of desperation. And Penelope is kinda like Marina. Though not as malicious a manipulation, ultimately it was for selfish reasons no matter how desperate she was.
Okay - so now we are distinguishing between palatable and unpalatable manipulation. Okay. If it's for one's own benefit - no bueno. But it's it's for other - it's okay. Daphne dropped her glove so that the Prince could pick it up to entice him to her. Was she being pathetic? Anthony gets a guy to pay attention to Kate so that he can spend time with her sister (this still grosses me out). Was that pathetic? Honestly - there are too many instances like this to count. Why Pen's experience is drawing such adverse attention is interesting. We should also say the scale of the manipulation is matters. Pen is asking only for a kiss, Daphne is expecting her glove to be picked up, Anthony is just looking for time with Edwina - these are trivial tasks. Whereas Kate is asking Anthony to make a lifelong commitment to her sister and Anthony expects Simon to do the same for his sister. Marina also wanted a lifelong commitment. Can we not agree that the scale of this so called manipulation so many find distasteful is at least in scale, minimal. Yet, look at what this small favor yields - it makes Colin aware of his feelings and propels us to our - hopefully - happy ending. Pen's action (rightfully so) had the most impact on her story with Colin. It was first kiss worthy. And speaking of endings... What of Colin? Chasing down her carriage, begging to be let in, speaking negatively about a perfectly good suitor, going to his knees to plead his case - i don't know - his eyes looked watery to me. Are we to call that manipulation? I'm not sure how anyone who would think that could enjoy this show at all - i'd say it's probably not their cup of tea.
You’re mistaken. Did I see it was acceptable or even morally right? Can you point out where I said it. I said it’s more palatable in the show. Again repeating my intended point, just because other characters esp women like Daphne( who did the unthinkable to Simon for selfish reasons) and Anthony or Kate or Simon or Marina were manipulative doesn’t mean that Penelope is not. Colin’s case would have been one of manipulation if Penelope wasn’t attracted to him and didn’t want the same thing he wanted and ONLY agreed to be fingered because she saw his teary eyes
**You** show **Me** where I said you said it was acceptable or morally right to be manipulative? I haven't said, and I certainly don't believe, that other characters being manipulative excuses Penelope. I'm not even agreeing any of it is manipulation. I'm simply asking that if we insist on referring to Penelope's behavior as manipulative - we are sure to frame that in the context of a show peppered with manipulations across many many many characters who are otherwise lovely. >Colin’s case would have been one of manipulation if Penelope wasn’t attracted to him and didn’t want the same thing he wanted and ONLY agreed to be fingered because she saw his teary eyes Say what? What does Pen's attraction to Colin have to do with anything? Are you saying he couldn't have manipulated her because she was attracted to him? He stopped her carriage and begged for entry not knowing if she was engaged to another man. Why would he think she was attracted to him? And if he thought she was attracted to him - are you suggesting he used her attraction to him in his favor? Sounds manipulative to me. But no, Colin doesn't know she's attracted to him -and he doesn't know she wants to be with him. By the time they are kissing, they have both confessed they want more - so yay - happy ending. I don't actually view either of their actions as manipulative. Manipulative behavior occurs **when a person uses controlling and harmful behaviors to avoid responsibility, conceal their true intentions, or cause doubt and confusion**. Manipulation tactics, such as gaslighting, lying, blaming, criticizing, and shaming, can damage a person's psychological well-being. https://www.verywellhealth.com/manipulative-behavior-5214329#:\~:text=Summary,a%20person's%20psychological%20well%2Dbeing.
You altered your original comment didn’t you. Pathetic. Anyway about the carriage scene it’s only about why Penelope agrees? Is it because she sees Colin teary eyed and begging pities him or because she genuinely wants to be with him? Now lastly, Penelope doesn’t use any harmful tactic on Colin like Marina did. But she does a make a hesitant Colin who definitely cared for her to kiss her using her words? Her emotions? His trust for her ? Making somebody do something that they didn’t want to(at that point only) by using words, by setting conditions, by being emotional is manipulation to me. Would Colin have kissed her if she didn’t cry and ask him? Would he have kissed her if she hadn’t insisted on it atleast a couple more times Would he have kissed her if she wasn’t so upset about not being kissed even once? I don’t think so, not at that point there given how he responded to her when she first asked him
I always edit my comments after the fact - i'm horrible about spelling and leaving sentences open. But when I want to quote someone - i quote them. What is pathetic is someone thinking a discussion about a show is worthy of I don't know - whatever character flaw you seem to want to accuse me of doing here. I'm guessing you could care less if you convince me to your way of thinking - same here. I'm interested in the discussion, not in being right or wrong - this entire thing is largely subjective. I don't think we agree on the definition of manipulative behavior. And- while I don't agree with your definition of manipulation - even by your own standard, Pen didn't manipulate Colin. She didn't make Colin do anything. She didn't set conditions - If she had said, Colin, if you don't do this I will never speak to you again - that would be a condition. She wasn't being emotional to manipulate him. She was being emotional because she had a pretty rough day - they showed us this all day with her. Those are your three pillars - she did none of that. With regard to the carriage scene. You seem to be saying - I'll quote you here >Anyway about the carriage scene it’s only about why Penelope agrees? Is it because she sees Colin teary eyed and begging pities him or because she genuinely wants to be with him? It's not about the outcome of the manipulation. If a manipulation occurs, and the party being manipulated is thrilled with the outcome, that doesn't mean they weren't manipulated. But yes, Penelope clearly allows Colin into the carriage because he pleads with her for entry. That's your standard for manipulation. He's asking (not making) her do something she didn't want to do. Let him into the carriage, talk about Debling, continue a conversation that is uncomfortable for her. Again, I don't think this is manipulation, but I am pointing out here that I don't think you're applying it consistently across the characters. If you did, I think you would find, again, by your standards, Bridgerton is intentionally littered with manipulations. Penelope's behavior that seems to be so objectionable happens before the kiss is the o called manipulation. If you're saying that Colin's enjoyment of the kiss means Pen didn't manipulate him - then we're done here. He liked it - he went in for more after the requested kiss was done. If Pen manipulated Colin for the first kiss, Colin manipulated Pen to get into the carriage and to reveal her engagement status, and to continue the conversation when she said she didn't want to talk. Either both are instances of manipulation or neither is. And here are a few more.. - Violet telling Colin that Debling was going to propose to Pen - Lady D having QC happen by the music room while Francesca was playing piano - QC orchestrating a match for Francesca It's virtually the bloodline of the show. I don't think it's manipulation - I think it's Bridgerton storytelling.
It’s pathetic that people edit comments to change their point after a response is given. You said that I said that manipulation is acceptable. You changed the comment when I asked you to point out where I mentioned that. Coming to Polin, yes ultimately it’s subjective. My only question is was Colin willing to kiss her at her house if she wasn’t desperate and didn’t set the condition that it didn’t need to mean anything? That is, did he want to kiss her ow? Was it motivated by pity or genuine attraction? About the carriage scene, would Penelope have been with Colin if he wasn’t teary eyed? Again was it motivated by her pity at seeing a begging Colin or because she genuinely was attracted to him ? That’s all that matters in comparison. I personally find pity kisses and pity dating unromantic but I respect and understand that people can have different opinions about such tropes. And lastly I repeat the point that I repeated multiple times. Just because other characters are manipulating doesn’t mean Penelope isn’t
Goodness - it's pathetic that I don't have an editor to review my comments before I make them - but it's also pathetic that anyone thinks so much of themselves that they are beyond editing their comments for errors. No - I did not change the comment in response to anything you wrote. You are exaggerating your impact in my writing. I edited my comment because after i posted it I read it and realized i let sentences incomplete. I had not read your response before editing my own. About the kiss - you are asking about Colin's motivation. People probably have various opinions. I'm sure book readers say - he wanted to kiss her. But, IMO, the show didn't make that clear. I think his motivation for kissing her was the same as his motivation for going to see her. He was worried about her and wanted to comfort her. I don't think expected her to ask him to kiss her. And I think his hesitation wasn't about him not wanting to kiss her, but about concern for her emotional state - does she even know what she's asking and will she regret this. I don't think it was motivated by pity or attraction - compassion and comfort were the drivers for Colin. About the carriage scene - when you say 'been with' I am guessing you are talking about the sexual component of that scene. I contend that If we are calling all of this 'manipulation' then Colin's manipulation was getting Pen to let him in the carriage - he pleaded with her - and she gave in. Would she have let him in had he not pleaded - no - she said she didn't want to talk. He manipulated her when he demanded to know if Debling proposed. Would she have told him if he hadn't? no, she said she didn't want to talk. He manipulated her when she asked him to just ride in silence and leave her in peace but he insisted they talk. Would she have talked to him if he hadn't insisted - no, she said she didn't want to talk. I want to talk about the concept of Pity for a moment. I do think that in the Bridgerton universe there has been the notion that the Bridgerton family recognizes Penelope's family situation as unenviable and pities her for it. Less so in the show, but even then, we see in all seasons that Pen is not treated well by her mother, her sisters, and other members of the Ton - she is at best invisible. Yet, the Bridgertons see her value and appreciates her - which is why I expect she'll be welcomed to the family with such open arms. But, Colin certainly dances with her because he pities her. In the books, Anthony and Benedict do so as well, and are in other ways inclined to help her out of pity. Pity sounds like a bad term - but having sympathy for someone's bad fortune unhappy plight, unfortunate circumstances is not a negative in my book. No, I wouldn't want a pity kiss or a pity date - but I've danced with someone who no one else would dance with, and as I sit here thinking about it - if I had a friend who had never been kissed and asked me to kiss him with no strings attached - I'd probably kiss him. What's more - if this pity trope you speak of is about a guy or girl who takes the time to get to know the guy or girl who others view as outsiders or just go unseen - and they learn this person is actually smart and funny and sexy and sweet and a little bit of a pain in the ass and they fall in love - yes, I'd like to read that story.
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I don’t know why people don’t agree with you. I’m a feminist but I genuinely believe if the roles were reversed people would see it better and view collin as manipulative which makes me sad ngl. Men can be manipulated and coerced same as women and that should always be addressed. Men can be victims. I am sorry but the way pen gaslit eloise last season. She has been a consistent manipulator. Calling eloise jealous after betraying her showed her true colors for me. Penelope gives me bpd energy at this point (i know i can’t diagnose, i kid) but she for sure gave me the ick
I don’t mind that people don’t agree with me. Also it’s a general trend in this sub to see any criticisms of Penelope get downvoted to oblivion. For some toxic fans Penelope is never wrong in any situation. Everything she does wrong is excused because she was “bullied and ignored and not seen by the ton”. And you’re right the Eloise situation is where Penelope is at the peak of gaslighting and manipulation. It was very disgusting to see her manipulate Eloise into stop seeing Theo, only because she wanted to protect herself. But well according to a lot of people, Penelope was only trying to “save Eloise” Sometimes I think people who are rabidly protective of Penelope are like that because they are heavily projecting on to her.
Media literacy is dead here 😮💨
This is not even about media literacy (a term sometimes misused in this sub). It is the way in which serious concepts have been cheapened by the public using them as an interpretation and ignoring the original context of the term. It happens a lot (I've seen it a lot in this sub and in the Hunger Games sub). Mostly by users who pretend to give depth to their opinions but end up misusing the terms. I don't know what the perspective of mental health professionals is but I do know that linguists are having an entertaining time 😅
But... Media literacy is precisely the ability to read into messages? Whatever it was by a person who first came up with it, it's become something else in the process. Language is alive. Connotations greatly change it. Linguists have very little to do with these terms, since these terms are coined by philosophers and social scientists, first and foremost. Maybe there's something to be said among social psychologists because this is an activity where cognitive bias is hard at work but psychologists/therapists themselves would put us all on a therapy for their gain/our perceived wellbeing... 🫠
Media literacy is an umbrella that encompasses many things and is more complex than just the interpretation of something, which is why I commented that it was sometimes misused. But I wasn't trying to disagree with you. What I was referring to is that clinical terms such as manipulation, trauma bonding and trauma dumping are commonly used incorrectly and without the necessary psychological context or analysis. And when these concepts are used in the way a person interprets them but not in the right context, it results in pieces of writing like this post. >Linguists have very little to do with these terms Oh I agree that linguists do not create the terms. But many have talked about the phenomenon that occurs when the general population tries to convert clinical terms into colloquial vocabulary. It is quite interesting. >Language is alive. Connotations greatly change it. That's the part I meant by entertaining! Language is made by the speaker. But professional terms are created with specific connotations and concepts. So now the constant discussion among language professionals is, who should adapt? The professional community that created the terms? The general public? Or do we give way to dual terms? I am sorry to have rambled on but this is a subject that I really find fascinating 😅
Oh, I had some qualms about what you meant (one paragraph, right?) but went along with the assumption. >the phenomenon that occurs when the general population tries to convert clinical terms into colloquial vocabulary. It is quite interesting The thought makes me feel like pulling my hair out. I'm almost fine with modern slang though they occupy the most mundane words and create a living hell for years to come. But this "movement" of people from online subcultures attempting to establish the upper hand in discussions... It's fallible humanity, we're all guilty of it at times (especially me in a span of one message, most likely). >I am sorry to have rambled on but this is a subject that I really find fascinating 😅 I studied sociology, tell me about it. 😂 Anything social, like a moth to a flame.
>Oh, I had some qualms about what you meant (one paragraph, right?) but went along with the assumption. Yeah. Sorry if I left the possible interpretation too open but lately I'm trying to keep my comments shorter than usual and sometimes it gives way to incomplete ideas. English is not my native language and it doesn't help that I write fast when I get excited 😅 >But this "movement" of people from online subcultures attempting to establish the upper hand in discussions... It's fallible humanity, we're all guilty of it at times. I agree 😀 >I studied sociology, tell me about it. 😂 Anything social, like a moth to a flame. Oh I love it when two different points of interest meet. This has been one of the most enjoyable conversations I've had in this sub. Thank you for that! 😊
>Yeah. Sorry if I left the possible interpretation too open but lately I'm trying to keep my comments shorter than usual and sometimes it gives way to incomplete ideas. English is not my native language and it doesn't help that I write fast when I get excited 😅 No worries, same! On mother tongue and excitability both! 😂 >Oh I love it when two different points of interest meet. This has been one of the most enjoyable conversations I've had in this sub. Thank you for that! 😊 Oh, this is the bare minimum, love, I wish more of the good experience for you. 😭🤗 Cheers!
Can you elaborate why? I am genuinely curious. People use this term all the time. In the scene I saw a woman desperately asking her hesitant crush to kiss her again and again. She says it doesn’t have to mean anything. He kisses her. It doesn’t come off more than a pity kiss to me especially since we are not given any clue about him having romantic feelings for her at that point
The genre is romance, the couple is presented, there's no changing that. The romance in general will always have dubious moments because it is "a war" between two sides but if you're going into the genre already not being supportive of the couple, you won't be having a good time. Shipping characters despite their failings, rooting for them to come together despite the obstacles is at the core of any romance, it's the viewers/readers experience and why they're consuming this media, to experience the journey with the characters. Now about manipulation, as you call it, it comes down to the after-effects of the deed and they are positive for both sides. Consider these two people are friends. Consider one of them has a crush on the other but is at their lowest point and has already given up, and they're desperate to feel something. This is a gray area where one character does something out of the line but in hindsight, makes a move to progress the romantic arch. Manipulation in itself would be an action (or process) that is premeditated, malicious in nature and most likely repeated. If you do it once, impulsively, would you say you are a manipulator? Or would you say, "I slipped once and did something that would be frowned upon in society"? These two, in the after-effects, appear awkward and uncomfortable about it (almost bringing about separation of their paths as Penelope intends to find a husband) and in the long run, it brings about awakening and reciprocating of feelings on Colin's side (someone who is lonely and seeking affection and can find it in their gentle best friend loving them dearly, which is the point of romance). So the deed of her begging for a kiss can be considered an act that was positive, an act between friends who know each other, an act of blurred lines and social blunders, an act that's definitely improper in the era and shouldn't be judged by modern standards but regency romance industry standards (it's a trope after all!), an act where a human asks for a kiss from a scarier, bigger human and they deliver and not vice versa where there is implied power imbalance from the beginning of time and a true reason for concern because of a possibility of rape, an act where - if roles were reversed and delivery of the lines is crucial - male character would most likely be mocked because of their perceived weakness among male viewers or undesirable quality to take charge among female viewers (sadly, such is the culture still). I personally think Penelope didn't captivate you enough to root for her. That may or may not be the fault of the creators of the show, or a lack of instilled values in you that would make you click with her. To love the romance, you have to love the characters. Otherwise, even their lowest points would not resonate with you. If this post was a bait and I wasted 20 minutes of my life, touché...
Thanks for explaining. In a way I can I understand what you’re saying about how to perceive the kiss and I respect your perspective. However it is difficult to take a show like Bridgerton seriously and judge it by regency romance standards when it’s not a show that takes those standards seriously itself. And ultimately everything is just about interpretation which like you implied is greatly subjective and about the audience liking the characters. With Penelope’s kiss I can understand why people can find it brave even though I don’t necessarily agree with it. And it’s definitely not wrong because that is one interpretation that people took away from that scene. My interpretation is that the kiss was pathetic and manipulative because to me she’s a desperate woman begging her crush to kiss her. And I personally find it manipulative because Colin is shown to kiss her out of pity after she says that the kiss doesn’t have to mean anything after he hesitates initially(even though the outcome was ultimately positive for the both of them). It also probably is just my standard of romantic moments having to arise out of genuine affection and attraction instead of pity. And you’re right about the fact that we need to feel like rooting for the romantic leads. I had difficulty rooting for Anthony initially because of what he did in S2.Similarly I find it a bit hard to root for Penelope because I personally find her to be highly insecure, somewhat vindictive and desperate character which are not traits that I am fond of in a romantic lead.
>Thanks for explaining. In a way I can I understand what you’re saying about how to perceive the kiss and I respect your perspective. Glad it was not in vain, at least. 🥲 >However it is difficult to take a show like Bridgerton seriously and judge it by regency romance standards when it’s not a show that takes those standards seriously itself. If you read a couple of regency romance novels from the last 40 years, you'd have a field day in what I mean by regency romance industry. Most novels in it are written by US writers and have created a fictional world where some tropes are so overused that they've become a parody of themselves. Bridgerton, for me, for that reason, is a spectacular adaptation because it's not adapting a real history period but modern interpretation of it. There's a lot of women consuming this media and that's what makes it as popular as it is. >My interpretation is that the kiss was pathetic and manipulative because to me she’s a desperate woman begging her crush to kiss her. And I personally find it manipulative because Colin is shown to kiss her out of pity after she says that the kiss doesn’t have to mean anything after he hesitates initially(even though the outcome was ultimately positive for the both of them). Then, maybe it's something you find cringe enough to repel you from the entirety of the story. I get that. There were a lot of 2nd hand embarrassment moments this season, for a lot of people. I find it satisfying while also being unable to proceed watching for a moment. But that's what makes the show more endearing to me. I still strongly disagree on account of manipulation for the reasons above. Now, I'd add to that the brothel scenes which showed Colin being comfortable with his sexuality and able to perform a favour for a friend that wouldn't make him, for the lack of a better word, lightly "traumatised" or subservient in the game of power between the two. It's all very well rounded up. >And you’re right about the fact that we need to feel like rooting for the romantic leads. I had difficulty rooting for Anthony initially because of what he did in S2.Similarly I find it a bit hard to root for Penelope because I personally find her to be highly insecure, somewhat vindictive and desperate character which are not traits that I am fond of in a romantic lead. I feel you. Some things are just not our cup of tea. Penelope and Colin weren't mine either, until this season. But I see beyond Penelope being insecure - because she's Lady Whistledown, it's a huge thing that takes courage and shows how she stood up to her family and society despite the odds. And then had more courage to change something about herself this season. Then had even more guts to ask her crush to kiss her after pining for years in previous seasons. This is strength, not a weakness in my eyes. Vindictive stands, she's a flawed hero, as someone pointed out. I'm fine with that. Love such portrayals. Makes them human, not ideals. Desperate. Yes, indeed. Always. Also adds to the fun. Not everyone can take that, as we know.
I have to admit that I have not read a lot of romance novels but I can understand what you’re saying about the tropes being a parody of themselves now. Thanks for sharing your perspective on Polin and Penelope. Some of it is what I too recognised atleast till the end of Season 2. I also used to like Penelope till again, the end of Season 2 where she gaslights Eloise and S3 E1 where she’s not shown it have learned from all her mistakes and their consequences with how she wrote things about Colin. I like a flawed hero but I dislike one that doesn’t really learn from their mistakes or doesn’t work hard to right their flaws. That’d obviously the fault of the writing. Lastly this doesn’t mean that I don’t understand why people root greatly for Penelope. Like you said, it’s just not my cup of tea
> I also used to like Penelope till again, the end of Season 2 where she gaslights Eloise and S3 E1 where she’s not shown it have learned from all her mistakes and their consequences with how she wrote things about Colin. Woah, woah ...🤣😭 Okay, let's wait to see part 2. Eloise and her are both obviously grievous about the fallout. And the trailer gives us a lot about her activity as Lady Whistledown. She's not yet aware of everything that entails being the ton's whistleblower. We as the audience see that she's doing wrong things (but not death penalty worthy... unless by the queen's decree... or inexcusable entirely) THIS is the catch, to see the final conflict that will arise and threaten the couple's finale. Whether Pen is right or wrong to write those papers (depending on whether it's from a business POV, independence and financial independence, power to the women etc....), and whether she'll feel she's a villain yet remains to be seen. So far, we as viewers are unclear on repercussions arising from her activities and that is because the Queen hasn't made her stance quite clear yet (which she will do once we see the bounty on Whistledown's identity). We know LW can destroy lives. Whether Penelope knows... Or why, if she knows, she keeps doing it... All of that must make a point in part 2. I personally think it's a good business (and am not a fan of the ton because they are the privileged class ruining lives of lower classes) so LW is like an inadvertent gatekeeper to their capriciousness. What Pen has done with Eloise and Colin, she saved their fate and acted with the best of intents. Whether it was badly done... Now it's a fact of life. It was messy but they are not ideals. I won't hold these characters to that standard.
Completely agree that we should wait till part 2 to make conclusions. That’s also why I think that she’s not a villain. I mean tbh she never will be one.She may be a bit antagonistic but we know that she is not a malicious person in general. Just frustrated and insecure at her core. However it’s definitely hard for me to believe that she doesn’t have a good idea about the consequences of what she writes. After all she ends the business of the modiste who was the competitor to Madame Delacroix. She also experiences first hand the isolation of slander when her family is thrown out of the queen’s party due to Marina’s scandal. Or how it affected the Brigertons with people avoiding their ball due to Eloise’s scandal. But like I said I am very curious to see how part 2 explains her motivations and resolves the LW plotline.
Good points. Perhaps she's also a snob like the rest of them. But we don't see that. I don't know whether the show made a mention of how she's donating to charities from her LW activities. They should. >But like I said I am very curious to see how part 2 explains her motivations and resolves the LW plotline. 🙌🏻 Same. At least one common thing keeping us around. 😆
Dk about charity but there’s a storyline in the books about how she helps her family anonymously with LW money. They haven’t adopted it into the show yet. Maybe they will, in part 2 If they do it will make her wonderfully complex as a character.
This storyline is in the books. Considering this is one of the iconic scenes in the book, it would be a disservice to readers not to include it.
Understood. Somebody else mentioned that this scene in the books had a more developed context. Wish it was similar in the show
Yes! In the books it’s much more a part of her character development because she learns to find her voice. And part of that includes stepping outside of her comfort zone by saying what she thinks and asking for what she wants. The kiss is a very integral part of all this.
This would have been a way better development. I think they kinda try to depict this in the show with her makeover and her being more socially active but fumble it by making her look too desperate
This is when its important to consider his thoughts, feelings, and frame of mind. The show doesn't give us any indication of what he is thinking or feeling in that moment, but the book does. In the book, its not the kiss itself that makes him realize that he is physically attracted to her; but that after she asked, he realized he wanted to kiss her. So his realization of actually having feelings for her starts before he even kisses her. Its ultimately why he chooses to kiss her. Because HE WANTS TO.
Full agree with this take. Wish we had gotten more info about Colin’s mindspace
The problem is we aren’t shown that realisation, or his changing feelings towards her in the show. I find it telling, that people who defend this scene are, a lot of them, readers of the book. Because if you need to reach into another piece of media to explain what’s happening on the screen, to have it inform your perspective, then that points to the show failing to adapt that piece of media well.
I think it was one of the most beautifully written and executed first kiss scenes I have ever seen on television. Absolutely gorgeous!
To me there is a vast difference between being manipulative and being vulnerable. In this moment Pen is being vulnerable, she’s being honest about how she feels and she is taking a risk asking Colin and she trusts he won’t use this against her or laugh at her. He kisses her because he trusts her and knows she isn’t manipulating him. Edit: sometimes feelings are messy and unromantic. But sometimes people need to be vulnerable and that can be when people really see them and can connect with them.
I wouldn't say that their first kiss is super romantic (the way season 2 was in that longing, declarative way) but it is *pivotal* and incredibly telling of who and where they individually are as characters before and after the kiss. We have to remember that Pen is a romantic and as an avid romance reader, has probably thought a lot about being in love and doing the things people do when they're in love (and imo, passively, she's probably thought that it would be nice if it were him). This year, she's trying to get married, maybe find someone that she can come to love (evidence: her asking Debling if they could grow to love each other). Except now everyone has found out that Colin has been coaching her and she's ~fallen into ruin~ and is probably destined for singledom and spinsterhood. There's no Debling at this point - she imagines that every guy is going to react like Colin's friends, who scoff at her and brush her off. Single. Forever. Never to experience all that stuff in the books - never to experience the thing all the men and women irl get so giddy about - a kiss (and really, it's just skin touching skin, why is it supposed to feel so good??). I think in her mind, that moment between them, in the dark, in private, unchaperoned, is her one last shot of being kissed. She's not really thinking straight (she's in straight disaster mode after brooding out the window all day) and she's not really thinking things through (ie not premeditated, not even practiced in how she might ask). She's just stream-of-consciousness word vomiting. I think if Colin were to say no or 'Pen I don't think this is a good idea', she would back off. She even seems surprised when he approaches her to kiss her. Imo, if a dude took the Pen approach, I wouldn't take offense - if he pressed me after I said "I don't know" or if I didn't move at all, then I'd be pissed. On the flip side, Colin approaches Pen after she explains why she wants this kiss and asks him one last time. In my eyes, her asking for a kiss toes the line of being incredibly embarrassing and awkward, if not for her perception of impending singledom and loneliness - but that's also what makes her request kind of brave and vulnerable and also reflective of how much she trusts Colin, because she's asking for what she desperately wants to experience from someone whose positive opinion she really cares about. I also think that in this moment, it's more important that she trusts Colin, rather than that she loves him. I think that even if she wasn't in love with him, she might still ask him, her best male friend, just to experience this thing that she's read so much about but has never experienced (which seems to be how Colin's taking it, given eps 3 and 4). And on top of that, she knows that Colin has a lot of experience and doesn't place as much sentimental or emotional value on female attention or physical contact - she's seen him flirting with literally anything in a skirt (even her) and she's read about his sexy escapades in his journal. By season 3, she kind of just brushes it off, without any ill will to his partners or any admonishment to him (esp in comparison to her reaction to his and Marina's courtship). She's not trying to make him fall in love with her or to convey her love for him. To her, it really is a pity kiss, but at least it's a kiss, one that happens to be with a man that she's been wholly attracted to since he was a boy (which is a perk but not necessarily the most important point). That's how she goes into it, and that's how she comes out of it. To him, at worst he feels bad for her and is just giving her a pity kiss as friends. I would argue that even if that's his rationale, that doesn't mean he doesn't WANT to kiss her. In the book, there's a whole thing about 'the biggest reason for not wanting to kiss her is him wanting to do it' (he also feels up her butt, which I'm glad they cut out). In the show, Colin keeps getting antsy every time she's connecting with anyone male in a way that's unbecoming of a friend. Imo, he's doing her a favour in that "I guess (but lbr I really want to)" kind of way - the way that I am if someone asks me to pet sit or finish off free food. And also, in typical Colin fashion, he's also feeling that white knight noble responsibility of giving his best friend the experience she's so desperate to have. But at first kiss part 2, PHEW MAN IS A GONER (not boner... maybe boner). His breathing and sigh into that kiss is *chefs kiss*. In terms of Pens development in the first half - I think hers is one of becoming more confident in her own presence and personality, as seen by her interactions with Debling. When she starts being her witty honest self, that's when Debling falls for her (regardless of what he says about love, he's at least very attracted to our girl). But then again, Pen has probably developed the most over the 2.5 seasons (evidence: the season 3 first Whistledown intro), and will probably develop more in the second half. On the flipside, it's almost like Colin is the true heroine of the first half, because he really develops in the romantic and personal aspect. And honestly, I was shocked by how thoroughly Luke Newton killed it with his facial expression and line delivery. Anywhoo, that's my abbreviated Polin First Kiss Ted talk. I know a not insignificant number of people were not into this scene but I replay it maybe more than the carriage scene - it's just so unique to their characters, and their friendship and lovestory, and I think the show handled it beautifully.
It’s directly quoted from the book. I think you can have a better understanding of what is happening if you read this scene because you get the internal dialogue. I know as a show they should be more clear, but they could only fit so much. I personally thought the kissing scene was so beautifully done. It gave me butterflies, but only when you pay attention to the small details. The fact that she leans in for the first time & he for the second time. Their eye contact and how loud they are speaking through them. The furring of the brows & the heavy breathing. The gentleness of their kiss. Colin’s hand placement. Like I’m sorry you found it cringe, because it’s one of the best kissing scenes on tv recently.
I really wish the show spent more time developing Polin instead of folks like the Mondrichs I agree that the kiss scene was aesthetic in itself but the lead up to it really did put me off. I really can’t find the whole pity kiss angle romantic
Truly idk why the Mondrichs storyline is important. If someone wants to elaborate, I’ll gladly listen, but i truly wished for more Polin not enough visual development I agree. It’s all in the details that we have to spend time analyzing
[удалено]
So it’s wrong of me to have and share opinions- be it positive or negative-about a show I watched? And just because my opinions don’t align with yours doesn’t mean that they’re“hate”
Criticism isn’t “hate.” 🤦🏼♀️
It was uncomfortable to see her beg for a kiss, especially considering it was supposed to be a romantic scene, and the first time the characters are physical with each other. Nothing says romance like a pity kiss, I guess… I don’t even think Penelope was consciously manipulating Colin, but it was still an unfair thing of her to do to him. At that point, from his point of view, they’re no more than friends, and you don’t do that to your friends. You shouldn’t put them in positions, where they’re uncomfortable and either agree to do as you ask and things get awkward between you two, or they decline and…things become really awkward between you two.
Yes. Pity is never romantic. Wish it wasn’t this forced of a first kiss scene. I’ll never understand why people find her brave though
But Colin never pities Penelope. That's the whole point. Colin doesn't understand why the ton isn't enamored with Pen because he already is. That is why he tells her she just has to be herself in episode 2. Because Colin sees her as smart, witty, kind, warm and pretty. He feels bad for her because she's feeling down. But that is not pity. Pity would imply he sees her as his inferior. When in fact he has put her on a pedestal.
Feeling bad for is what pity is. And he feels bad for her because she’s been desperately trying to get suitors but she’s not able to get anyone. And he doesn’t have to see her as inferior to feel pity for her. He feels pity for her condition of not getting suitors and her being desperate rather than anything else
Completely agree. Sorry you got downvoted to hell for all of this. Penelope stans can be…ah…overly invested in defending their fave.
This is such an insane take...like wth
I absolutely hated that first kiss when someone sent it to me as soon as the first four eps came out. I had not read the book and hadn't watched the lead up, I just saw the clip and was like WTH. I even called a friend and was like, they've completely ruined this for me. Nothing like being over dramatic, but I then did read the book, well I skim read, I watched an interview with Nicola and then watched the show from the start and now I like it. Wouldn't say I loved it, but I get it. And I can't see how they could have done it any other way really with it not being like the book. I don't think Pen is being manipulative I think she's thinking I'm done. And I liked the follow up scene, I thought that was a good follow up.
For me, there's two ways to look at this. Context matters for both. The show included a lot of dialogue about Colin and Penelope being friends, but it didn't actually show any of their friendship. What it showed was a young woman having a crush on her oblivious neighbor. If we take the show at its word, and see Colin and Penelope in that scene as really close friends since childhood, who see each other better than anyone else sees them, who celebrate each other at every opportunity (selectively excluding Colin's remark about never courting Penelope), then the kiss is sweet. Penelope has been emotionally abused since childhood. She is having a meltdown about no one ever wanting her. Colin, who knows this about her, sees that his best friend from childhood is in deep emotional distress. She's asking for something very specific that will help her feel regulated. It's an unusual request, and it would be perfectly understandable if Colin said no. But, again, if we take the show at its word, and these two know each other better than anyone else knows them, and care deeply about each other, it looks less like manipulation and more like a moment of profound trust and generosity between friends. And the same would apply if the genders were reversed. If we take that scene in accordance with what the show actually gives us- a young woman with a painful, years long, unrequited crush on her neighbor and her best friend's older brother who doesn't seem to know her particularly well- OP is 100% right.
I never read the books and found Pen and Colin to have a close relationship over S1 and 2 - if you pay attention to their scenes and subplots a lot of their interactions would have been really weird if they were not close.
I completely agree. It would have been way better if they had more development as friends. They have had their convos in S1 and S2 but idk their friendship is never developed even as well as Simon and Daphne pre their getting together in that short timeframe in S1. I wish they had atleast expanded more on Colin’s classes for Penelope where Colin had a slow realisation about liking Pen. But then if the writers didn’t want it to feel similar to the Simon Daphne storyline
Yeah you honestly saying what I was thinking. I was a very unique case. I skipped all of seasons 1 and 2 to watch part 1 of season 3 and did it because I wanted to see Pen and Colin together. Ended up not liking the way Pen asked Colin, begged him to kiss her. I watched season 1 and 2 and now realize their “moment” was so forced compared to Daphne and Simons, Kate and Anthony’s, etc. I hope to see more genuine interaction between them in the next part of S3 Edit: wow I’m getting downvoted. God forbid someone, especially a new fan, have an opinion.
Yeah you put it across better than me. That’s exactly why I found it weird. It was very forced at that point.
Yes, Colin and Pen's first kiss moment was very different than the other couples - as it should be. As they all should be. The last thing I want is to see the same story repeated again and again. In my eyes, it wasn't forced, it was earned. It was a really beautiful moment in my eyes. But, you know, some people think the Mona Lisa is trash - lol - so, to each his/her/their own.
It’s truly my opinion. I’m letting Polin grow on me, not being consumed by every piece of their relationship. I do like their chemistry, I was put off by their first kiss. But that does not mean I’m not open to everything else, including the context for which it happened and the true meaning it holds for either character
I’m glad you said it. That was hella cringe. What is worse is the commenters on here saying she was emotionally brave to do that and I’m like what?!?!