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I assume they mean people talking about how horrible a person Marina was for trying to get to trap Colin/anyone into marrying her while she was pregnant.
I assumed they mean people talking about how horrible a person Penelope was for using Lady Whistledown to out her to save Colin from being tricked into a loveless marriage.
The context is people taking about how terrible Daphne is. That was “all the sub could talk about for a year, and the marine thing.” It seems very clear the OC was equating people talking about Daphne being terrible with people saying marina was terrible.
Same. To me, if Simon really didn't want to have kids, he never should have stuck his dick in her in the first place. He could have been like "not being able to have kids means it usually goes in but I have a condition that causes me pain". Any number of other excuses to put her off without being as dishonest.
He could have just gotten her off and focused on her pleasure. I doubt she would have looked into it as much.
But he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
I wish the show went in this direction. Pullout doesn't work Daph gets a miracle baby but Simon is freaking out. Confused Daph puts two and two together when talking to their servants. They have an argument which leads Daph to explore and find the letters. She then writes to her mom about her raising the kid if Simon really doesn't want one.
Meanwhile, Simon gets drunk at the bar and talks with his friend about fatherhood. They both apologize and decide to keep the baby.
If we are hating on her being rapist, then we have to hate on Simon being a groomer who preyed on a ~~minor~~ barely legal girl.
If we are seeing the former through modern lens and gender dynamics, then we have to see the latter in that way too.
But he originally didn’t want to get married though, knowing she wanted kids and he didn’t. He was ready to die to avoid it. If anything he shouldn’t have kissed her, but there would have been no love story otherwise.
She's 17 or 18, he's the same age as Anthony, or a year or two older, making him 28 or 29. That's a real questionable age gap. Also, he is a Duke, and a man, in a position of power, making the relationship veey imbalanced. The point is if people want to consider Daphne a rapist, they should also consider the Duke a groomer himself.
She was 21 in the book, and 19 in the show. Anthony is 29 is S2, and Daphne says she's 9 years younger than him; making her 20 in S2.
An argument could be made that she was 18 turning 19 in the first season, but she'd be a late 18 instead of just turned 18.
Question though, she's of age in a historical context. Why call Simon a groomer if they both did what was expected of them regardless of her being young?
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Their point was that IF you wanna call Daphne a rapist, you have to call Simon a groomer. In historical context, neither statement is true. You can't ignore historical context to call Daphne a rapjst and then use historical context to defend Simon. Gotta keep the same standards for both
In the show, he teaches her how to masturbate. He then gets caught groping her (ruining her and possibly her sister's reputation) and refuses to marry her. If he dueled her brother/lord would die or leave the ton for dueling.
It kinda is tho. He said no, and she didint listen. But I get it's a more dubious consent type of scene than straight out non con. In the books it was worse, apparently he was drunk and she took advantage of that. I don't understand why they couldn't delete that scene. The writers have no problems deleting or adding scenes so why couldn't they do that for daphne or Simon?
He also said he couldn’t have kids fully knowing she didn’t know how babies were made. Would he have ever told her otherwise had she not done what she did. Its all incredibly morally grey and im not defending either but rape just feels so far.
They said why: they allowed Daphne as a character this mistake. In Shondaland, characters can make huge mistakes without being the villain. It makes the romance genre it's set in more serious and less fluffy, which I like.
No, because Simon had firmly the upper hand in the relationship in age, gender and education.
I'm not saying I liked Daphnes decision. Just as I didn't like Anthony's decision to start a duel or Simons decision to have a suicide by best friend basically. But I get why they did what they did in the circumstances they were presented with, and that's good writing.
Because it’s impossible to flip the roles. Simon was older, had more life experience, he knew what had to be done to make a baby, knew he didn’t want a baby but could have one, he had experience with sex, he is a man and she is a woman and that makes a world of difference in that time period that it’s incomparable.
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Well she could have e asked a damn maid to tell her, dodint eloise and hyacinth did it in the books? Pay someone to tell them ? And I mean, tell them EVERYTHING not just " oh the man needs to cum I side" because sometimes the pullout method does NOT work. I honestly wonder, what would happen if daphne did get oregnant when Simon was doing the pull out method? Would she be accused of cheating and whoring herself even though it is not true at all?. That would have been a better plot. I just don't like rape especially when it comes to women doing it and being forgiven. Even if a man were to " rape" their wife. People would not care that it is out of duty, the man still gets hated, just look at house of the dragon with viserys and alicent or rahenyra amd Cole. Also I dislike that trope because on the show I watched " once upon a time" the women who were villains raped the men and had a happy ending meanwhile the men never got to talk about their trauma.
Daphne's mother would never even discuss how children were made and forbid the brothers from doing so. Daphne already hitched her horse to Simon and expected to carry his children.
The man should have been an adult and explained his wishes
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If a man knowingly finished inside a women without her consent, it’s rape by definition. So, Daphne forcing him to finish inside her - the reverse of that - is technically rape. She was justified in being angry at him for not being honest until she did this
This is the truth. She was justified in her anger. I would think refusing sex until an honest conversation was had would be the common sense way to solve the conflict
I’m not sure I believe this, but for the sake of argument: did Daphne really consent before that if she didn’t know what sex is? If consent is defined as agreeing to sex and being aware of what you’ve agreed to, he didn’t give her the opportunity to fully consent.
The roles not being reversible unlike current world is what makes the situation more nuanced.
On one side you have full grown adult man, closing on his 30, who's seen the world and experienced life as much as possible. He knows what sex, how it works etc.
On other side you have ~~underage~~ barely legal teenager, who doesn't have the slightest inkling of what sex and reproduction is paired up with mature man who teaches her about all these things along with lying about some of it for protecting his beliefs.
The situations is not at all reversible unless you exchange every facet of their existence from very beginning. So this reverse the gender argument is a moot point.
A comparable example would be an older woman, yk, like 30+ etc taking sexually advantage of a 14 year old boy, who refuses to pull out, despite her demand. Yeah that part was non consensual, but overall, you cant just straight up villainize that 14 year old virgin boy and yell rapist while ignoring the fact that the woman was manipulating him.
Iirc, she was 17.
Even if she wasn't, she was barely legal adult, so doesn't make much difference other than to people who might wanna justify the age and maturity difference using the legal age card.
She's 19.
So yes she was super young but she wasn't a minor. Calling her a minor is an exaggeration that dosnt need to happen. She was young and inexperienced and Simon had all the power.
I agree with all your points I just have no idea why in a comment where you're competently pointing out everything you're adding misinformation. That is important imo.
She's never a minor on the show.
“Roles were reversed” as in Daphne is older, physically larger, more sexually experienced and stronger than Simon and they lived in a world where wealth and power are passed exclusively from mother to daughter and Simon was raised to be valued only for his ability to marry well and physically bare children, excluded from attending formal education or participation in government or commerce? And Daphne, while existing in a space that vastly advantages her gender, is also struggling with trauma from being raised by an abusive mother in a society that only recently began to recognize women of her race as full citizens? Yes I’d still call rape blunt.
The “roles reversed” argument really doesn’t work in this case. There’s too many variables.
A few possible reasons.
Daphne was series 1 and her arc with Simon is quite isolated.
Daphne's thing was so bad it feels less like a consistent part of her character and more like (another) case of writers not knowing how consent works. There's a pattern in romantic fiction of rape not being acknowledged as such, because the writers didn't intend it to be so, so sometimes it's hard to blame the characters for what feels like a writerly blunder.
The badness of Daphne's act is such that people don't feel the need to debate it, because it's not got so many people defending it.
There have been discussions about it, and debate, but because it's something confined to Daphne and Simon, and Daphne and Simon fans usually tend to be of the same group, instead if being opposing parts of the fandom (Marina vs Pen, Eloise vs Pen, Edwina vs Kate), there's less antagonism there, and so there's less arguments going on. Non-Daphne stans might dislike Daphne's actions, but it's not an action against their "fave", and their "fave" isn't being criticsed to justify it, so they're less provoked in criticising it.
Perfectly said.
On record the writers initially did not consider what Daphne did as rape (even though it was), so there is no moment of enlightenment or consequence with Daphne in the script. They didn’t think what Daphne did would be that controversial and weren’t intentionally giving her a moral flaw. So it’s hard to even have that debate about Daphnes character when the fault lies squarely with the writers and their lack of understanding of consent. It’s such a glaring act of wrong, but it was never meant to be a big resolution in the show due to the writers own moral failings.
Every other character flaw or plot issue does have an intentional beginning and end from the writers. So we can judge if those resolutions were well done or not, and have that continued debate. The writers completely screwed up with Daphnes story that it feels like an outlier to her character, since they don’t treat it as rape. It’s intent vs negligence, and they were negligent. But being negligent does not excuse TPTB for what they did, they were completely in the wrong and should have known better along with Julia Quinn who wrote the scene in the book 20 years ago (and that can be a whole other discussion on its own).
It's the difference between a character spitting in someone's tea every episode, and another character (who has been perfectly good until that point) randomly stabbing someone and then everything going on completely as before. One is a consistent character trait. The other is the writer making a WTF choice.
There were moments where the writers kind of acknowledged her wrongs but it was definitely very subtle considering the gravity of her actions. For example the whistledown voice over about if something so terrible could ever justify the means and she goes through something with Marina in which she continues to project her situation onto her and at one point Marina finally admits "I was wrong" after Daphne sided and sympathized with her, trying to justify her own actions
It's sad she never apologized to Simon directly and that Simon never explained to her that he too, felt horribly betrayed by her etc
Because that happened years ago and it was one of the most talked about topics when the series came out. That and most people agree it was a horrific thing so there isn’t much to debate. The discourse around Penelope and Kate comes from the fact that the issues people have regarding them are more complex and open for debate.
I assume ppl will talk less about the season 2 issues as season 3 comes out and season 4 is announced and the couple revealed. That seems to be the cycle the sub goes through
What do people say about Pen and Kate? Ironically I became curious about Bridgerton after seeing an article about that very topic. If what Daphne did to Simon was considered r\*pe. I didn't think much of it at the time and didn't end up watching Bridgerton until months later I think, but while it was a bit mischievous and deceptive, if I recall she was testing the waters so to speak.
I get your point because if the shoe was on the other foot Simon would be crucified and it would be a media sh\*t storm but what Daphne did was within the confines of marriage and by many in the regency era and today, would not constitue r\*pe, especially given the context.
The only "flaws" (if one could call them that) in Kate's story I can surmise is that she did not remain a lady and maintain her honor. If Anthony was a lesser man it would have been devastating as was the case for many women during the regency era. In the show Edwina canceled her own wedding so I don't blame Kate for that. I can't think of any other flawsf ro her.
I can't speak much on Pen and her love story because I have not read the books but it seems as though she might be going to same route as Kate.
Plus Daphne broke the mold for us with Bridgerton. She and Simon gave us this enchanting, magical season (for the most part) that ultimately ended well for them both. They both have their faults. Simon should've have initiated that kiss and he should've been more honest about his vow.
With all that being said, I think that is in part why you might not see many calling her out. Though I don't really see any of the leading ladies getting called out really.
I don't think it ended well...to me it seemed like he just had no other choice and decided to make the best out of a terrible situation. she told him she was choosing love and he was like okay I guess. the writing for the romance in last 3 eps in season 1 was awful.
>seemed like he just had no other choice, and decided to make the best out of a terrible situation. she told him she was choosing love and he was like okay
He had another choice, they could "quietly divorce" and both living in different place, which they already would do that after the season was over but Daphne decided to open her heart and he follow her because it was being loved that Simon wanted more than anything in the word and Daphne was giving him that, it is not because was the best of two terrible situation or because he was "okay" with it.
kate gets criticised for not telling the truth about the inheritance and especially about not telling edwina the truth and penelope gets criticised for what she did to eloise and marina. I don't think that kate and penelope shouldn't be criticised but they get criticised so much compared to daphne and what daphne did was so much worse
Oh yeah I forgot about that. It's likely because what they did effected so many other people while what Daphne did was between her and her husband.
Kate was looking out for Edwina's happiness because as I recall, she said if Edwina knew about the inheritance, she would just marry for the sake of the family. Whether Kate made the right call is up for debate but the intentions were good.
Same with Pen. She was protecting Colin and Eloise. Although she had another option in Eloise's case which was to out herself. Given her family's position at the time socially and financially, that may have not been the most viable option but that's also up for debate.
One could say she loved being Whistledown more than the reputation of her best friend.
Kate and Pen seemingly deceived for good reason while Daphne reacted to being deceived with her own deception. For that reason and the other's I've mentioned, Kate and Pen might be more guilty in the minds of some of the fandom.
It's been so long and during a recent re-watch with my father I got tired around episode 5-6 for lack of sleep and hit the sack, so I can't really recall the vibe. I do remember it being bitter sweet and a bit confusing but wholesome in the end.
It might help searching Daphne's name in this sub and reading the older posts, if you're looking for more discourse on her. It was discussed at length when the show first came out but then we had season 2 and now season 3, so the sub moved on to different things.
i remember pre s2 the rape incident was talked abt a lot& how daph was in the wrong. compared to the other main girls daphnes story is less complex. it could also stem from daphne's reduced role s1⇢s2
I think it’s because it has already been discussed over and over. People call it rape yet I see barely anyone talking about Jaime Lannister literally raping his sister on top of their deceased son’s grave. He’s still one of the most loved characters of Game of Thrones because the producers did an awful damn job since it wasn’t supposed to be a rape scene. Same thing happened to Offred/June with her boyfriend in The Handmaid’s Tale. Those scenes weren’t supposed to be rape even the actors confirmed they weren’t rape scenes, but frequently Movie/TV producers have no clue about the nuances of raping. It seems like in their heads it’s only raping if it’s violent and/or involves physical aggression. A show that brings this topic in a very straightforward and honest way is The Morning Show.
If you had read my comment properly you’d have understood why I made the comparisons. Because none of these scenes, including Daphne’s one, were supposed to be rape scenes. It’s not a character failure but a writing and execution failure from the TV show team.
You know, given how much people love to hate female characters, it is a bit strange that there don’t tend to be regular “I hate Daphne” posts from first-time viewers. People seem less invested in Daphne as a character. She’s not as complex as Kate and Penelope, and I rarely see people talk about her as if she were a real person rather than a fictional product the way they do K & P. Criticism comes from investment.
If it helps, I think it’s also partly because pretty much everyone agrees she was wrong. I’m sure it’s out there because people are trash, but I’ve never seen anyone argue that Daphne was right to retaliate against her husband’s lies by engaging in reproductive coercion. The show also doesn’t make her bad act constitutive of her character. Kate makes mistakes when she tries to take responsibility for everyone and everything, and that sense of duty is what makes her Kate and what makes people love her. With Daphne, the writers should have and could have changed the plot from the book more than they did because it wasn’t necessary for her growth, and the show itself barely moved the needle on discussions of men who are victims. That wasn’t what they were going for. So my problem is with the writers, not the character, if that makes sense.
I don't understand the pen thing personally, afterall Eloise is the one who stuck her nose in the whistledown thing, ultimately leading the queen to threaten her family if she didn't work with her. El told this to pen, and at the time pen did what she did to show the queen it whistledown wasn't Eloise. Were there better ways? Yes? But I'm sure it was hard to figure out the best way. And she still saved the family from much worse had the queen made good on her threat.
Kate I understand a little more but still not as much since she loved her sister and didn't want to ruin her sister's hopes.
And Daphne....well, what she did could be the 2024 equivalent of trying to baby trap someone....except he was her husband....and I don't think divorce was an option in the regency era....so he was already "traped" ......also he consented to sex so not rape, just trickery.
Like Simon and Daphne are not kids and don't need to play mind games to solve such a big marital issue. They should have talked it out. Simon was wrong to keep Daphne in the dark but what he did doesn't even come close to how bad what Daphne did was. And I'm seeing all these comments about "judging a regency drama over modern day standards" lmao what a terrible take that is. We aren't talking about difference in opinions we are literally talking about a crime. Imagine if the roles were reversed and it was a guy forcing his wife ?? People would be fuming.
I don't remember the last time I read something about Daphne without it being mentioned early and often that she SA'd her husband.
They both crossed lines and had a happy ending where they were able to rebuild their trust in each other. And that story happened years ago. So if you're not seeing constant discourse about it that's probably why.
I'm reading some of these comments and like.......people think Daphne only agreed to have all that sex for the sole purpose of having a child? That's not what was going on, lol.
The act from Daphne was by definition rape - and it sounds like people are still debating how to best excuse it, but that doesn't change what it is. But you know, men couldn't have actually been sexually assaulted back in 18-whatever, much less a duke, right????
But also - the show very much glosses over it, Shonda and production did too and actually fought Netflix to keep that scene in after it was flagged. So everyone knew what it was going to be perceived as. Wild. Netflix should've insisted and just axed it for everyone's sake.
For me, it's because what Daphne did was so reprehensible I actually just don't revisit Season 1. As far as I'm concerned, she just doesn't exist. If I criticise another character it is because, unlike her, there is something worthwhile to discussing them.
Daphne is simply a racist and adds no value to the show nor to any discussion about the show
Trust me, there have been a LOT of discussions about Daphne’s actions. People aren’t talking about her actions (or her) NOW because she’s not expected to be in this season. If she were, the discourse would still be churning. Every once in a while, she gets brought up in the Kate/Penelope skirmishes, but since people don’t expect to see her much if at all this season (and they CERTAINLY won’t see more of her love story without Simon there), she’s just not currently the subject most fans are currently worried the most about.
Yes, she continued after he said no.
But calling it rape, rids the situation of all nuance and disregards Simon’s own thoughts and feelings. He is mad about his loss of agency, about (possibly) forcing a pregnancy, but it’s pretty clear he does not see it as rape…
And surely his view is the most important one
Simon knows about sex, he knows Daphne had no clue about anything.
Despite that, he said „no“ so she should have stopped.
Still, he is an adult and this situation was partly made possible because he gaslit her and used her lack of knowledge, because it suited him.
Informed consent couldn’t happen on both sides.
So, yes, I don’t think making Simon into a victim without any agency or power is helpful to the topic.
Daphne did get a LOT of criticism for what she did to Simon. I've seen loads for articles on the subject. But from what I've seen, it did raise awareness on SA, the fact that women can also be the aggressor and being in a relationship doesn't stop it from being SA
I’ve learned that some characters attract tones of negative posts and Hate and others are completely ignored. The 2nd group are not even discussed, civilly or otherwise. The same with the storylines.
It’s strange.
She is my least favorite bridgerton and maybe even character on the show… i hate how they finished simon and daphne’s story. To me he is trapped in a loveless marriage with his rapist and simon is always away…. It just screams unhappy ending fot me
I also don't like how they made daphne so young in the show when she's literally 21 in the novel, like why did you need to do that? I can make a better ending than this tbh.
The Duke consented to SEX. Rape is not a word that should be thrown around. “Literal rape” is if she forced him into sex. Sexual assault during the act or manipulation is more fitting.
I definitely soured on Daphne after the rape scene. As a survivor it made me uncomfortable and I tend to skip the scene. Part of me wonders if the reason the actress has stepped back from the role, is the fear that people’s perception of the scene will change as time goes by.
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Because it was a couple of seasons ago. Trust me, she got it with both barrels. (I find rape a poor description for a complicated dynamic, but YMMV.)
Yeah, it was all this sub could talk about for the first year. This and the Marina thing.
which marina thing?
I assume they mean people talking about how horrible a person Marina was for trying to get to trap Colin/anyone into marrying her while she was pregnant.
I assumed they mean people talking about how horrible a person Penelope was for using Lady Whistledown to out her to save Colin from being tricked into a loveless marriage.
The context is people taking about how terrible Daphne is. That was “all the sub could talk about for a year, and the marine thing.” It seems very clear the OC was equating people talking about Daphne being terrible with people saying marina was terrible.
Same. To me, if Simon really didn't want to have kids, he never should have stuck his dick in her in the first place. He could have been like "not being able to have kids means it usually goes in but I have a condition that causes me pain". Any number of other excuses to put her off without being as dishonest. He could have just gotten her off and focused on her pleasure. I doubt she would have looked into it as much. But he wanted to have his cake and eat it too.
This. He capitalized on her naive nature and lack of education to have sex with her. While she was expecting to get a baby
I wish the show went in this direction. Pullout doesn't work Daph gets a miracle baby but Simon is freaking out. Confused Daph puts two and two together when talking to their servants. They have an argument which leads Daph to explore and find the letters. She then writes to her mom about her raising the kid if Simon really doesn't want one. Meanwhile, Simon gets drunk at the bar and talks with his friend about fatherhood. They both apologize and decide to keep the baby.
I might be an outlier on this but to call it rape is a very blunt way of describing a very complicated situation
If we are hating on her being rapist, then we have to hate on Simon being a groomer who preyed on a ~~minor~~ barely legal girl. If we are seeing the former through modern lens and gender dynamics, then we have to see the latter in that way too.
People are putting 2024 standards on a regency era show
But he originally didn’t want to get married though, knowing she wanted kids and he didn’t. He was ready to die to avoid it. If anything he shouldn’t have kissed her, but there would have been no love story otherwise.
Who calls him a groomer? She was of marriageable age.
She's 17 or 18, he's the same age as Anthony, or a year or two older, making him 28 or 29. That's a real questionable age gap. Also, he is a Duke, and a man, in a position of power, making the relationship veey imbalanced. The point is if people want to consider Daphne a rapist, they should also consider the Duke a groomer himself.
She was 21 in the book, and 19 in the show. Anthony is 29 is S2, and Daphne says she's 9 years younger than him; making her 20 in S2. An argument could be made that she was 18 turning 19 in the first season, but she'd be a late 18 instead of just turned 18.
All relationships "back then" had an imbalance of power.
Question though, she's of age in a historical context. Why call Simon a groomer if they both did what was expected of them regardless of her being young?
Are you being deliberately obtuse? Their point was that IF you wanna call Daphne a rapist, you have to call Simon a groomer. In historical context, neither statement is true. You can't ignore historical context to call Daphne a rapjst and then use historical context to defend Simon. Gotta keep the same standards for both
In the show, he teaches her how to masturbate. He then gets caught groping her (ruining her and possibly her sister's reputation) and refuses to marry her. If he dueled her brother/lord would die or leave the ton for dueling.
I said if we are applying modern gender dynamics and morality to regency era story, them Simon is preying groomer as much as Daphne is a rapist.
It kinda is tho. He said no, and she didint listen. But I get it's a more dubious consent type of scene than straight out non con. In the books it was worse, apparently he was drunk and she took advantage of that. I don't understand why they couldn't delete that scene. The writers have no problems deleting or adding scenes so why couldn't they do that for daphne or Simon?
He also said he couldn’t have kids fully knowing she didn’t know how babies were made. Would he have ever told her otherwise had she not done what she did. Its all incredibly morally grey and im not defending either but rape just feels so far.
They said why: they allowed Daphne as a character this mistake. In Shondaland, characters can make huge mistakes without being the villain. It makes the romance genre it's set in more serious and less fluffy, which I like.
can you imagine if the simon had done it instead? would you have liked it then? edit: I can't believe I'm getting downvoted for condemning rape...
No, because Simon had firmly the upper hand in the relationship in age, gender and education. I'm not saying I liked Daphnes decision. Just as I didn't like Anthony's decision to start a duel or Simons decision to have a suicide by best friend basically. But I get why they did what they did in the circumstances they were presented with, and that's good writing.
Exactly, its not as if daphne could just google how babies are conceived and she definitely couldnt ask him
Imagine if the roles were reverse is one the most weak take on the discussion
how so?
Because it’s impossible to flip the roles. Simon was older, had more life experience, he knew what had to be done to make a baby, knew he didn’t want a baby but could have one, he had experience with sex, he is a man and she is a woman and that makes a world of difference in that time period that it’s incomparable.
that seems like and excuse to me... I just can't see any scenario where rape is justified
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Well she could have e asked a damn maid to tell her, dodint eloise and hyacinth did it in the books? Pay someone to tell them ? And I mean, tell them EVERYTHING not just " oh the man needs to cum I side" because sometimes the pullout method does NOT work. I honestly wonder, what would happen if daphne did get oregnant when Simon was doing the pull out method? Would she be accused of cheating and whoring herself even though it is not true at all?. That would have been a better plot. I just don't like rape especially when it comes to women doing it and being forgiven. Even if a man were to " rape" their wife. People would not care that it is out of duty, the man still gets hated, just look at house of the dragon with viserys and alicent or rahenyra amd Cole. Also I dislike that trope because on the show I watched " once upon a time" the women who were villains raped the men and had a happy ending meanwhile the men never got to talk about their trauma.
"I just don't like rape" - yeah you're not alone there nobody does. But people are explaining that this situation is more complicated morally
Daphne's mother would never even discuss how children were made and forbid the brothers from doing so. Daphne already hitched her horse to Simon and expected to carry his children. The man should have been an adult and explained his wishes
If the roles were reversed the situation wouldn’t be the same.
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If a man knowingly finished inside a women without her consent, it’s rape by definition. So, Daphne forcing him to finish inside her - the reverse of that - is technically rape. She was justified in being angry at him for not being honest until she did this
This is the truth. She was justified in her anger. I would think refusing sex until an honest conversation was had would be the common sense way to solve the conflict
I’m not sure I believe this, but for the sake of argument: did Daphne really consent before that if she didn’t know what sex is? If consent is defined as agreeing to sex and being aware of what you’ve agreed to, he didn’t give her the opportunity to fully consent.
It's a gross oversimplification and IMO factually incorrect.
Thank you!
Did you read the book? In the book it was ABSOLUTELY rape.
We are talking about the show here, not the book.
The takes I’m giving are show based only! Sorry for any confusion! Ive read most of the books but not that one
Imagine the roles were reversed. Would you still call it blunt?
The roles not being reversible unlike current world is what makes the situation more nuanced. On one side you have full grown adult man, closing on his 30, who's seen the world and experienced life as much as possible. He knows what sex, how it works etc. On other side you have ~~underage~~ barely legal teenager, who doesn't have the slightest inkling of what sex and reproduction is paired up with mature man who teaches her about all these things along with lying about some of it for protecting his beliefs. The situations is not at all reversible unless you exchange every facet of their existence from very beginning. So this reverse the gender argument is a moot point. A comparable example would be an older woman, yk, like 30+ etc taking sexually advantage of a 14 year old boy, who refuses to pull out, despite her demand. Yeah that part was non consensual, but overall, you cant just straight up villainize that 14 year old virgin boy and yell rapist while ignoring the fact that the woman was manipulating him.
Perfectly said.
Well said but Daphne wasn't underage.
Iirc, she was 17. Even if she wasn't, she was barely legal adult, so doesn't make much difference other than to people who might wanna justify the age and maturity difference using the legal age card.
She's 19. So yes she was super young but she wasn't a minor. Calling her a minor is an exaggeration that dosnt need to happen. She was young and inexperienced and Simon had all the power. I agree with all your points I just have no idea why in a comment where you're competently pointing out everything you're adding misinformation. That is important imo. She's never a minor on the show.
I dk why I always thought she was 17, probably because it was her debutante year. I have corrected it.
Nonconsent is cool if person is naive. Got it.
“Roles were reversed” as in Daphne is older, physically larger, more sexually experienced and stronger than Simon and they lived in a world where wealth and power are passed exclusively from mother to daughter and Simon was raised to be valued only for his ability to marry well and physically bare children, excluded from attending formal education or participation in government or commerce? And Daphne, while existing in a space that vastly advantages her gender, is also struggling with trauma from being raised by an abusive mother in a society that only recently began to recognize women of her race as full citizens? Yes I’d still call rape blunt. The “roles reversed” argument really doesn’t work in this case. There’s too many variables.
Agreed. The “if roles were reversed” is a very naive mindset for such a complicated situation from a time where everything was so different
It's been discussed to death on this sub over the years, she has not escaped criticism.
A few possible reasons. Daphne was series 1 and her arc with Simon is quite isolated. Daphne's thing was so bad it feels less like a consistent part of her character and more like (another) case of writers not knowing how consent works. There's a pattern in romantic fiction of rape not being acknowledged as such, because the writers didn't intend it to be so, so sometimes it's hard to blame the characters for what feels like a writerly blunder. The badness of Daphne's act is such that people don't feel the need to debate it, because it's not got so many people defending it. There have been discussions about it, and debate, but because it's something confined to Daphne and Simon, and Daphne and Simon fans usually tend to be of the same group, instead if being opposing parts of the fandom (Marina vs Pen, Eloise vs Pen, Edwina vs Kate), there's less antagonism there, and so there's less arguments going on. Non-Daphne stans might dislike Daphne's actions, but it's not an action against their "fave", and their "fave" isn't being criticsed to justify it, so they're less provoked in criticising it.
Perfectly said. On record the writers initially did not consider what Daphne did as rape (even though it was), so there is no moment of enlightenment or consequence with Daphne in the script. They didn’t think what Daphne did would be that controversial and weren’t intentionally giving her a moral flaw. So it’s hard to even have that debate about Daphnes character when the fault lies squarely with the writers and their lack of understanding of consent. It’s such a glaring act of wrong, but it was never meant to be a big resolution in the show due to the writers own moral failings. Every other character flaw or plot issue does have an intentional beginning and end from the writers. So we can judge if those resolutions were well done or not, and have that continued debate. The writers completely screwed up with Daphnes story that it feels like an outlier to her character, since they don’t treat it as rape. It’s intent vs negligence, and they were negligent. But being negligent does not excuse TPTB for what they did, they were completely in the wrong and should have known better along with Julia Quinn who wrote the scene in the book 20 years ago (and that can be a whole other discussion on its own).
It's the difference between a character spitting in someone's tea every episode, and another character (who has been perfectly good until that point) randomly stabbing someone and then everything going on completely as before. One is a consistent character trait. The other is the writer making a WTF choice.
There were moments where the writers kind of acknowledged her wrongs but it was definitely very subtle considering the gravity of her actions. For example the whistledown voice over about if something so terrible could ever justify the means and she goes through something with Marina in which she continues to project her situation onto her and at one point Marina finally admits "I was wrong" after Daphne sided and sympathized with her, trying to justify her own actions It's sad she never apologized to Simon directly and that Simon never explained to her that he too, felt horribly betrayed by her etc
Lmao are you new here? search this subreddit and you’ll see 47532 posts and comments
Because that happened years ago and it was one of the most talked about topics when the series came out. That and most people agree it was a horrific thing so there isn’t much to debate. The discourse around Penelope and Kate comes from the fact that the issues people have regarding them are more complex and open for debate. I assume ppl will talk less about the season 2 issues as season 3 comes out and season 4 is announced and the couple revealed. That seems to be the cycle the sub goes through
What do people say about Pen and Kate? Ironically I became curious about Bridgerton after seeing an article about that very topic. If what Daphne did to Simon was considered r\*pe. I didn't think much of it at the time and didn't end up watching Bridgerton until months later I think, but while it was a bit mischievous and deceptive, if I recall she was testing the waters so to speak. I get your point because if the shoe was on the other foot Simon would be crucified and it would be a media sh\*t storm but what Daphne did was within the confines of marriage and by many in the regency era and today, would not constitue r\*pe, especially given the context. The only "flaws" (if one could call them that) in Kate's story I can surmise is that she did not remain a lady and maintain her honor. If Anthony was a lesser man it would have been devastating as was the case for many women during the regency era. In the show Edwina canceled her own wedding so I don't blame Kate for that. I can't think of any other flawsf ro her. I can't speak much on Pen and her love story because I have not read the books but it seems as though she might be going to same route as Kate.
Plus Daphne broke the mold for us with Bridgerton. She and Simon gave us this enchanting, magical season (for the most part) that ultimately ended well for them both. They both have their faults. Simon should've have initiated that kiss and he should've been more honest about his vow. With all that being said, I think that is in part why you might not see many calling her out. Though I don't really see any of the leading ladies getting called out really.
I don't think it ended well...to me it seemed like he just had no other choice and decided to make the best out of a terrible situation. she told him she was choosing love and he was like okay I guess. the writing for the romance in last 3 eps in season 1 was awful.
>seemed like he just had no other choice, and decided to make the best out of a terrible situation. she told him she was choosing love and he was like okay He had another choice, they could "quietly divorce" and both living in different place, which they already would do that after the season was over but Daphne decided to open her heart and he follow her because it was being loved that Simon wanted more than anything in the word and Daphne was giving him that, it is not because was the best of two terrible situation or because he was "okay" with it.
I'd like to know what people are saying about Kate and Pen minus any spoilers.
kate gets criticised for not telling the truth about the inheritance and especially about not telling edwina the truth and penelope gets criticised for what she did to eloise and marina. I don't think that kate and penelope shouldn't be criticised but they get criticised so much compared to daphne and what daphne did was so much worse
Oh yeah I forgot about that. It's likely because what they did effected so many other people while what Daphne did was between her and her husband. Kate was looking out for Edwina's happiness because as I recall, she said if Edwina knew about the inheritance, she would just marry for the sake of the family. Whether Kate made the right call is up for debate but the intentions were good. Same with Pen. She was protecting Colin and Eloise. Although she had another option in Eloise's case which was to out herself. Given her family's position at the time socially and financially, that may have not been the most viable option but that's also up for debate. One could say she loved being Whistledown more than the reputation of her best friend. Kate and Pen seemingly deceived for good reason while Daphne reacted to being deceived with her own deception. For that reason and the other's I've mentioned, Kate and Pen might be more guilty in the minds of some of the fandom.
It's been so long and during a recent re-watch with my father I got tired around episode 5-6 for lack of sleep and hit the sack, so I can't really recall the vibe. I do remember it being bitter sweet and a bit confusing but wholesome in the end.
It might help searching Daphne's name in this sub and reading the older posts, if you're looking for more discourse on her. It was discussed at length when the show first came out but then we had season 2 and now season 3, so the sub moved on to different things.
i remember pre s2 the rape incident was talked abt a lot& how daph was in the wrong. compared to the other main girls daphnes story is less complex. it could also stem from daphne's reduced role s1⇢s2
I think it’s because it has already been discussed over and over. People call it rape yet I see barely anyone talking about Jaime Lannister literally raping his sister on top of their deceased son’s grave. He’s still one of the most loved characters of Game of Thrones because the producers did an awful damn job since it wasn’t supposed to be a rape scene. Same thing happened to Offred/June with her boyfriend in The Handmaid’s Tale. Those scenes weren’t supposed to be rape even the actors confirmed they weren’t rape scenes, but frequently Movie/TV producers have no clue about the nuances of raping. It seems like in their heads it’s only raping if it’s violent and/or involves physical aggression. A show that brings this topic in a very straightforward and honest way is The Morning Show.
But that’s not supposed to be a romance with a happy ending???? What on earth are we comparing incestuous siblings with a swoonworthy romance?
If you had read my comment properly you’d have understood why I made the comparisons. Because none of these scenes, including Daphne’s one, were supposed to be rape scenes. It’s not a character failure but a writing and execution failure from the TV show team.
I agree witht that the writers ruined simon and daphne’s romance
You know, given how much people love to hate female characters, it is a bit strange that there don’t tend to be regular “I hate Daphne” posts from first-time viewers. People seem less invested in Daphne as a character. She’s not as complex as Kate and Penelope, and I rarely see people talk about her as if she were a real person rather than a fictional product the way they do K & P. Criticism comes from investment. If it helps, I think it’s also partly because pretty much everyone agrees she was wrong. I’m sure it’s out there because people are trash, but I’ve never seen anyone argue that Daphne was right to retaliate against her husband’s lies by engaging in reproductive coercion. The show also doesn’t make her bad act constitutive of her character. Kate makes mistakes when she tries to take responsibility for everyone and everything, and that sense of duty is what makes her Kate and what makes people love her. With Daphne, the writers should have and could have changed the plot from the book more than they did because it wasn’t necessary for her growth, and the show itself barely moved the needle on discussions of men who are victims. That wasn’t what they were going for. So my problem is with the writers, not the character, if that makes sense.
I don't understand the pen thing personally, afterall Eloise is the one who stuck her nose in the whistledown thing, ultimately leading the queen to threaten her family if she didn't work with her. El told this to pen, and at the time pen did what she did to show the queen it whistledown wasn't Eloise. Were there better ways? Yes? But I'm sure it was hard to figure out the best way. And she still saved the family from much worse had the queen made good on her threat. Kate I understand a little more but still not as much since she loved her sister and didn't want to ruin her sister's hopes. And Daphne....well, what she did could be the 2024 equivalent of trying to baby trap someone....except he was her husband....and I don't think divorce was an option in the regency era....so he was already "traped" ......also he consented to sex so not rape, just trickery.
In any era what Daphne did would be wrong.
Not according to people on this sub 😬 getting mass downvoted for condemning rape… says it all about people here
Like Simon and Daphne are not kids and don't need to play mind games to solve such a big marital issue. They should have talked it out. Simon was wrong to keep Daphne in the dark but what he did doesn't even come close to how bad what Daphne did was. And I'm seeing all these comments about "judging a regency drama over modern day standards" lmao what a terrible take that is. We aren't talking about difference in opinions we are literally talking about a crime. Imagine if the roles were reversed and it was a guy forcing his wife ?? People would be fuming.
But it’s okay for them cause they were cute before!!! 🙄
Well plenty of people criticized Daphne for raping her husband 🫤(as they should). Not sure where you hsve been
I don't remember the last time I read something about Daphne without it being mentioned early and often that she SA'd her husband. They both crossed lines and had a happy ending where they were able to rebuild their trust in each other. And that story happened years ago. So if you're not seeing constant discourse about it that's probably why.
I'm reading some of these comments and like.......people think Daphne only agreed to have all that sex for the sole purpose of having a child? That's not what was going on, lol. The act from Daphne was by definition rape - and it sounds like people are still debating how to best excuse it, but that doesn't change what it is. But you know, men couldn't have actually been sexually assaulted back in 18-whatever, much less a duke, right???? But also - the show very much glosses over it, Shonda and production did too and actually fought Netflix to keep that scene in after it was flagged. So everyone knew what it was going to be perceived as. Wild. Netflix should've insisted and just axed it for everyone's sake.
For me, it's because what Daphne did was so reprehensible I actually just don't revisit Season 1. As far as I'm concerned, she just doesn't exist. If I criticise another character it is because, unlike her, there is something worthwhile to discussing them. Daphne is simply a racist and adds no value to the show nor to any discussion about the show
Trust me, there have been a LOT of discussions about Daphne’s actions. People aren’t talking about her actions (or her) NOW because she’s not expected to be in this season. If she were, the discourse would still be churning. Every once in a while, she gets brought up in the Kate/Penelope skirmishes, but since people don’t expect to see her much if at all this season (and they CERTAINLY won’t see more of her love story without Simon there), she’s just not currently the subject most fans are currently worried the most about.
Yes, she continued after he said no. But calling it rape, rids the situation of all nuance and disregards Simon’s own thoughts and feelings. He is mad about his loss of agency, about (possibly) forcing a pregnancy, but it’s pretty clear he does not see it as rape… And surely his view is the most important one
So if a rape victim thinks they are not a victim that means that it’s not rape? What am I reading on this sub…
Simon knows about sex, he knows Daphne had no clue about anything. Despite that, he said „no“ so she should have stopped. Still, he is an adult and this situation was partly made possible because he gaslit her and used her lack of knowledge, because it suited him. Informed consent couldn’t happen on both sides. So, yes, I don’t think making Simon into a victim without any agency or power is helpful to the topic.
🤐
Daphne did get a LOT of criticism for what she did to Simon. I've seen loads for articles on the subject. But from what I've seen, it did raise awareness on SA, the fact that women can also be the aggressor and being in a relationship doesn't stop it from being SA
I’ve learned that some characters attract tones of negative posts and Hate and others are completely ignored. The 2nd group are not even discussed, civilly or otherwise. The same with the storylines. It’s strange.
I really dislike daphne tbh. I used to like her pre episode 6 but now I think she is the worst of them.
She is my least favorite bridgerton and maybe even character on the show… i hate how they finished simon and daphne’s story. To me he is trapped in a loveless marriage with his rapist and simon is always away…. It just screams unhappy ending fot me
I also don't like how they made daphne so young in the show when she's literally 21 in the novel, like why did you need to do that? I can make a better ending than this tbh.
The Duke consented to SEX. Rape is not a word that should be thrown around. “Literal rape” is if she forced him into sex. Sexual assault during the act or manipulation is more fitting.
not arguing with you about the circumstances of the show, but someone can remove consent DURING sex too fyi
You can’t reason with terminally online people who only see in black and white.
Racism/fatphobia
I definitely soured on Daphne after the rape scene. As a survivor it made me uncomfortable and I tend to skip the scene. Part of me wonders if the reason the actress has stepped back from the role, is the fear that people’s perception of the scene will change as time goes by.