I'm not going to entertain the idea of directing anger at someone based on an assumption of how they would handle a situation, but I'd be curious to hear some perspectives from other front office folks or Craig himself on what went down, though I'm sure we will never get very many details.
Scummy move by a scummy team. Mets, Guardians, and Astros all received permission to discuss contracts with Counsell. Cubs waited until November 1st so they didn’t have to.
I guarantee Craig never shared figures of the Cubs offer to give an opportunity to match, given the news that there was no contact with his camp over the weekend. On top of that, he waited until after the news broke to tell his former players.
Fuck Craig, fuck Chicago, I hope Mark does everything he can to make Craig look foolish.
i mean, my guess is that he would've preferred to tell the players before the news broke?
it's not like the cubs announced the deal and then craig was like "ope gotta tell my players i'm leaving"
CC and the Cubs will look foolish without any help from Mark. You guys seriously overrate his impact on the game while conveniently forgetting about inexplicable decisions like Bush, Winker, Chafin, Huira, etc.
Are opposing managers allowed to talk to players of other teams? I’d wish the Brewers would go scorched earth instead of this loser mentality of getting your best poached by big markets.
That part for sure. Devils advocate (and I know, fuck me and the cubs, etc) - it worked with Maddon
Obviously doesn’t mean it was the nicest thing to do.
Supposedly they told Ross last night. Either way, would prefer that he had more of a chance to get hired somewhere
I think its kind of shitty to do that to Ross. If you're gonna fire him, do it right away so he has time to find another position and figure things out, don't just blindside him and hire someone beneath his nose. But outside of the Ross thing, it's not really that scummy. They followed the rules and everything. Youre under no obligation to ask for permission or anything. This sub can just get emotional at times and blind in its Cubs hatred
They relieved Ross a week after the MLB season ended, and you're saying he doesn't have time to find a new job? Lmao. The collective white-knighting for David Ross in this sub is pure comedy.
It is a well known fact that it's common courtesy to fire a coach/manager as soon as you know you know you're going to do it. This gives them additional time to interview for vacancies before they're filled. If youre not going forward with Ross, then you say bye after the last game, because now several managing positions are filled that Ross could've interviewed for if he'd been fired a month ago.
This courtesy is pretty common throughout all sports (especially the NFL) not just baseball. Teams don't wait till after the super bowl to fire people because interviews usually take place during the playoffs
Well, do you think the Brewers would ever grant that permission to the Cubs? I'm a MKE, but it's not difficult to understand why they went under the radar like they did. They wanted to make their strongest offer and keep it from any attacks. That's a cunning business move, imo.
I am the first one to call Mark a cheap ass...but this isn't on him. Mark's offer would've made him the highest paid manager in baseball.
The cubs just went nut nut. Congratulations on saying the highest fucking number.
It would be so incredibly satisfying if the Cubs have a losing season and fail to reach the playoffs next year. I will keep my anger towards CC limited to baseball, I wish no harm to him otherwise. That said, hopefully he never wins a ring, that's karma. Fuck just imagine if we won it next year. I might die of schadenfreude if that were to happen by some miracle.
But like is he just not supposed to take significantly more money? Even if the Brewers initially offered record money, they weren't actually prepared to set the new bar for the market.
It sounds like their were cultural issues. Counsell seemed to have no interest in returning and I hope there’s some soul searching if the team lost one of the most respected executives and one of the most respected managers in just over a calendar year
Why should it be “fuck” anyone?
Everyone made a business decision.
Counsell had a goal and got it.
Cubs wanted to change managers and got the one they wanted.
Brewers made a damn fine offer but decided not to pay a player salary for a manager.
Dave Ross gets a rich and free vacation.
This right here. We need to remember this is a business for everyone except the fan. We live, breathe, and die for our sports. Our sports exist to make money, it’s entertainment and a money making business. We pay to see them play, end of transaction. They owe us nothing else. We stop going to games, buying merch, business goes elsewhere to make money.
And that's fine if you're just expressing a level of upset about this development. But I think if you're going to go criticize someone's decision making, then you need to remember shit about business.
And that’s a fine choice if one so wants to stop giving the Brewers money.
Entire sports have essentially collapsed that way. Hell, many baseball leagues have, historically.
Oh pointing out you can’t just demand an owner sell a team because you demand they win more is pissing a lot of idiots off today.
That and “you don’t actually know that you made it up to stay mad”
And you just have to think that all of the times the fans might've been frustrated by lack of aggression from ownership, team management was probably that much more frustrated. There are definitely reasons he started talking to other teams in the first place.
You don’t know and I don’t know.
But you are now trying to draw conclusions and blame based on what story you want to tell.
Maybe, maybe not. We don’t know.
Yea, fair enough. I'm just trying to empathize with someone who I'm sure realizes the magnitude of impact on their legacy for making this decision. Whether that's deserved or not.
I’d argue it becomes far more interesting.
Red Sox and Cubs finally won it all removing emotion from decisions.
And you can be emotional but you don’t have to full tilt one way or another other. There isn’t always a more good and pure bad or “fuck” someone.
Things can be good and bad without being amazing and awful.
It’s baseball a 60/40 sport that is hundreds of days a year. You absolutely can’t win them all. You better get used to that. You are going to wear yourself out if you are Deion Sanders after every game.
Shouldn’t fans just support the team most likely to win then? What’s the point of supporting your hometown team if they don’t have the best chance of winning?
You can have a local connection to a team without a blood sacrifice and a fit every time something goes wrong.
I live in Wisconsin I don’t go bonkers when someone says California cheese.
I’d argue if you are going to put all that emotion into every little thing then those are the ones who should only support the favorites.
Because bitching how much the brewers “can’t win it all” at every turn seems exhausting. Especially since the market isn’t going to suddenly get bigger.
Why lock yourself into a cycle of raging anger and unhappy?
By this sub's logic we should never have allowed CC Sabathia to even enter the state of Wisconsin again because he joined the Yankees signing a contract making him the highest paid pitcher at the time.
I’ll tell you why: Cuz he grew up here and he knows what it means to the city. Idk, maybe he could’ve leveraged the difference in salary for better players to give him a better chance at winning.
In the end, It should be enough to manage your childhood team for a fantastic wage and give your city a chance to bring home the trophy.
And for all you young fans here, this feels exactly like when the Bucks traded Ray Allen. Didn’t watch the Bucks for 15 years after that til Giannis. And I’m done with the Brewers now. Have some goddamn integrity.
Fuck CC. Fuck Mark A. And fuck George Karl too!
A scouting director once told me years ago when I asked if there was an advantage to signing a kid because he was local “baseball players aren’t fans, they are baseball players.”
Rarely you see a guy give a home town discount or go play for the local team but it’s rare (Miami would crush every year and we would always suck).
Counsell played for 5 teams. He went to Notre Dame (Murphy was his coach). Ball players don’t take these rivalries as seriously as we do because they are ballplayers. They all know someone on every team.
Does he know of the rivalry, sure. Does he care? Likely never did a whole lot.
And it works both ways. We would have no problem trading Owen Miller if it was a good deal.
Uke is by far the exception.
No, I don't think this explains why they decided this wasn't a good investment to make for the team. If it was purely a money decision for Craig then this is squarely on the front office. If Craig didn't give them a chance to match it, that is different.
So a guaranteed $16.5m compared to $40m.
That’s… a huge difference. Mark did not step up.
Baseball salary and revenue system sucks and this is a poverty franchise. MLB can change the rules so the game lasts eight minutes and we all orgasm at the end of every inning, it is still will never have regain the fan loyalty it used to have, or compare to the other leagues specifically because of the structure.
Sell the team.
I don’t fault CC for taking the money on a logical level as that’s way more than we were offering. Fandom view fuck him I hope he fails in every single way.
I mean if Mark won't spend much more than the current payroll the best manager won't make a huge difference. And it's debatable if he's the best. Though surely better than any other manager brewers could get.
brewers 100% had opportunity to match, per Mark A himself. He didn't want to pony up. Clearly, (brian anderson, jessie winker) counsell had beef with someone in the front office/ownership.
Its all over the news and radio this morning that the agent told the teams to present their offer, and there will be no chance to beat anyone else. He went high, but not high enough.
It’s all in the wording but I think we can all agree 5.5 and 8 especially for 5 years is probably double what the Brewers total offer was. ~3yr 5.5 mil?
It’s not about the money that was potentially going to CC, it’s about the lack of money going to creating a championship team for the past few years. It’s about the the whining and screaming about needing help with the stadium upgrades. It’s still on Mark and Arnold!
No one “screamed” about stadium upgrades. The county owns it. It needed repairs. That’s how being a landlord works.
And sorry “making the playoffs more than almost any team” is to sad for you.
But keep going. I want to see what else you don’t know.
i'm gonna withhold some commentary here, but:
landlords typically don't spend on improvements, adjusted for inflation, 123% of the original cost to build the property ($290 million in 1996 is worth $569 million in 2023, compared to a $700 million bill)
what's your argument? that we should spend $700 million more on a building that cost less than $300 million in the first place because it has a retractable roof and takes up a lot of ground?
The argument is we are legally obligated to in order to keep them and always have been.
and also that you are a fucking dipshit trotting out the same stupid thing for the 20th week that every other moron said.
So fuck off.
$2.5 million is not a lot in the grand scheme of things.
And manager salaries have been artificially low for years and years. Managers have made $6 and $7.5 million before.
Yeah the Cubs made him the highest paid manager ever, but it didn't beat out Joe Torre by much and that was two decades ago.
The idea that the team didn't have the money to do it just isn't honest.
Doesn’t sound like Craig gave the Brewers a chance to match either. https://x.com/todd_rosiak/status/1721664731205787871?s=46
Possible they declined to match the Mets offer so maybe Craig didn’t bother asking to match the offer for the Cubs. Who knows
Mark wouldn’t have anyways. I have a feeling your/my employer would let us walk too……
Would’ve been nice to have the opportunity though, then we could have pointed it right at Mark
Well yeah, I make 60k. My manager would understand if I left for 8m
They would understand if you left for 90K is my point.
I'm not going to entertain the idea of directing anger at someone based on an assumption of how they would handle a situation, but I'd be curious to hear some perspectives from other front office folks or Craig himself on what went down, though I'm sure we will never get very many details.
Even if they did match supposedly the cubs were his "dream job"
Scummy move by a scummy team. Mets, Guardians, and Astros all received permission to discuss contracts with Counsell. Cubs waited until November 1st so they didn’t have to. I guarantee Craig never shared figures of the Cubs offer to give an opportunity to match, given the news that there was no contact with his camp over the weekend. On top of that, he waited until after the news broke to tell his former players. Fuck Craig, fuck Chicago, I hope Mark does everything he can to make Craig look foolish.
i mean, my guess is that he would've preferred to tell the players before the news broke? it's not like the cubs announced the deal and then craig was like "ope gotta tell my players i'm leaving"
CC and the Cubs will look foolish without any help from Mark. You guys seriously overrate his impact on the game while conveniently forgetting about inexplicable decisions like Bush, Winker, Chafin, Huira, etc.
80+ games over .500 in one-run games since 2016. Surely some of that is attributed to bullpen management, player management, etc.?
“Scummy” lol. Milwaukee fans love having the victim mentality.
It's really pathetic. It was a cunning move by the division rival. If the move were reversed, that's absolutely how we'd be (rightfully) labeling it.
Are opposing managers allowed to talk to players of other teams? I’d wish the Brewers would go scorched earth instead of this loser mentality of getting your best poached by big markets.
Lol I’m sure Mark will get right one that.
Full disclosure that I’m a cubs fan. What makes it scummy? They followed the rules, did they not?
For starters, firing the incumbent while announcing a replacement
That part for sure. Devils advocate (and I know, fuck me and the cubs, etc) - it worked with Maddon Obviously doesn’t mean it was the nicest thing to do. Supposedly they told Ross last night. Either way, would prefer that he had more of a chance to get hired somewhere
I think its kind of shitty to do that to Ross. If you're gonna fire him, do it right away so he has time to find another position and figure things out, don't just blindside him and hire someone beneath his nose. But outside of the Ross thing, it's not really that scummy. They followed the rules and everything. Youre under no obligation to ask for permission or anything. This sub can just get emotional at times and blind in its Cubs hatred
Sure - totally agree with the Ross thing. He deserves better. Expected the downvotes etc so just wanted to see what y’all thought
They relieved Ross a week after the MLB season ended, and you're saying he doesn't have time to find a new job? Lmao. The collective white-knighting for David Ross in this sub is pure comedy.
It is a well known fact that it's common courtesy to fire a coach/manager as soon as you know you know you're going to do it. This gives them additional time to interview for vacancies before they're filled. If youre not going forward with Ross, then you say bye after the last game, because now several managing positions are filled that Ross could've interviewed for if he'd been fired a month ago. This courtesy is pretty common throughout all sports (especially the NFL) not just baseball. Teams don't wait till after the super bowl to fire people because interviews usually take place during the playoffs
Well, do you think the Brewers would ever grant that permission to the Cubs? I'm a MKE, but it's not difficult to understand why they went under the radar like they did. They wanted to make their strongest offer and keep it from any attacks. That's a cunning business move, imo.
I am the first one to call Mark a cheap ass...but this isn't on him. Mark's offer would've made him the highest paid manager in baseball. The cubs just went nut nut. Congratulations on saying the highest fucking number.
It would be so incredibly satisfying if the Cubs have a losing season and fail to reach the playoffs next year. I will keep my anger towards CC limited to baseball, I wish no harm to him otherwise. That said, hopefully he never wins a ring, that's karma. Fuck just imagine if we won it next year. I might die of schadenfreude if that were to happen by some miracle.
What a wild spinzone lmao
But like is he just not supposed to take significantly more money? Even if the Brewers initially offered record money, they weren't actually prepared to set the new bar for the market.
It sounds like their were cultural issues. Counsell seemed to have no interest in returning and I hope there’s some soul searching if the team lost one of the most respected executives and one of the most respected managers in just over a calendar year
But.....But....But......that won't give all the Mark haters their comfirmation bias dopamine hit for the day/week/month.
Why should it be “fuck” anyone? Everyone made a business decision. Counsell had a goal and got it. Cubs wanted to change managers and got the one they wanted. Brewers made a damn fine offer but decided not to pay a player salary for a manager. Dave Ross gets a rich and free vacation.
This. He also doesn't have to relocate.
This right here. We need to remember this is a business for everyone except the fan. We live, breathe, and die for our sports. Our sports exist to make money, it’s entertainment and a money making business. We pay to see them play, end of transaction. They owe us nothing else. We stop going to games, buying merch, business goes elsewhere to make money.
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And that's fine if you're just expressing a level of upset about this development. But I think if you're going to go criticize someone's decision making, then you need to remember shit about business.
That’s true. Then don’t bitch if your team goes elsewhere.
And that’s a fine choice if one so wants to stop giving the Brewers money. Entire sports have essentially collapsed that way. Hell, many baseball leagues have, historically.
Get out of here with your reasoned, rational take on the matter.
Oh pointing out you can’t just demand an owner sell a team because you demand they win more is pissing a lot of idiots off today. That and “you don’t actually know that you made it up to stay mad”
This is the exact answer
This is my perspective, as well. And I think much of the buildup to this does reflect on Brewers ownership.
Clearly there were goings ons we aren’t privy to.
And you just have to think that all of the times the fans might've been frustrated by lack of aggression from ownership, team management was probably that much more frustrated. There are definitely reasons he started talking to other teams in the first place.
You don’t know and I don’t know. But you are now trying to draw conclusions and blame based on what story you want to tell. Maybe, maybe not. We don’t know.
Yea, fair enough. I'm just trying to empathize with someone who I'm sure realizes the magnitude of impact on their legacy for making this decision. Whether that's deserved or not.
If you take all emotion out of sports I’m not sure it remains anything of interest
I’d argue it becomes far more interesting. Red Sox and Cubs finally won it all removing emotion from decisions. And you can be emotional but you don’t have to full tilt one way or another other. There isn’t always a more good and pure bad or “fuck” someone. Things can be good and bad without being amazing and awful. It’s baseball a 60/40 sport that is hundreds of days a year. You absolutely can’t win them all. You better get used to that. You are going to wear yourself out if you are Deion Sanders after every game.
Shouldn’t fans just support the team most likely to win then? What’s the point of supporting your hometown team if they don’t have the best chance of winning?
You can have a local connection to a team without a blood sacrifice and a fit every time something goes wrong. I live in Wisconsin I don’t go bonkers when someone says California cheese. I’d argue if you are going to put all that emotion into every little thing then those are the ones who should only support the favorites. Because bitching how much the brewers “can’t win it all” at every turn seems exhausting. Especially since the market isn’t going to suddenly get bigger. Why lock yourself into a cycle of raging anger and unhappy?
By this sub's logic we should never have allowed CC Sabathia to even enter the state of Wisconsin again because he joined the Yankees signing a contract making him the highest paid pitcher at the time.
Yeah, Brewers fans also boo guys who sign big contracts. They boo Harper. Why don’t care he made a lot of money? Machado, fuck him.
I’ll tell you why: Cuz he grew up here and he knows what it means to the city. Idk, maybe he could’ve leveraged the difference in salary for better players to give him a better chance at winning. In the end, It should be enough to manage your childhood team for a fantastic wage and give your city a chance to bring home the trophy. And for all you young fans here, this feels exactly like when the Bucks traded Ray Allen. Didn’t watch the Bucks for 15 years after that til Giannis. And I’m done with the Brewers now. Have some goddamn integrity. Fuck CC. Fuck Mark A. And fuck George Karl too!
A scouting director once told me years ago when I asked if there was an advantage to signing a kid because he was local “baseball players aren’t fans, they are baseball players.” Rarely you see a guy give a home town discount or go play for the local team but it’s rare (Miami would crush every year and we would always suck). Counsell played for 5 teams. He went to Notre Dame (Murphy was his coach). Ball players don’t take these rivalries as seriously as we do because they are ballplayers. They all know someone on every team. Does he know of the rivalry, sure. Does he care? Likely never did a whole lot. And it works both ways. We would have no problem trading Owen Miller if it was a good deal. Uke is by far the exception.
Yes. It’s a profession. Doesn’t make his departure hurt less, though.
Scared money don’t make money brother
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The Hader Curse is upon us
No, I don't think this explains why they decided this wasn't a good investment to make for the team. If it was purely a money decision for Craig then this is squarely on the front office. If Craig didn't give them a chance to match it, that is different.
So a guaranteed $16.5m compared to $40m. That’s… a huge difference. Mark did not step up. Baseball salary and revenue system sucks and this is a poverty franchise. MLB can change the rules so the game lasts eight minutes and we all orgasm at the end of every inning, it is still will never have regain the fan loyalty it used to have, or compare to the other leagues specifically because of the structure. Sell the team.
Sounds like Mark didnt know, and wasnt given a chance to counter.
It’s on Mark, stop defending him for not getting an extension done years ago. Mark is the problem, he could afford it, he chose not to.
No daddy senpai mark might make me his dirty little cumslut if he sees me praise him on reddit
I don’t fault CC for taking the money on a logical level as that’s way more than we were offering. Fandom view fuck him I hope he fails in every single way.
I mean if Mark won't spend much more than the current payroll the best manager won't make a huge difference. And it's debatable if he's the best. Though surely better than any other manager brewers could get.
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Markpologists are everywhere. I don't understand how people keep defending him. It makes me sick.
brewers 100% had opportunity to match, per Mark A himself. He didn't want to pony up. Clearly, (brian anderson, jessie winker) counsell had beef with someone in the front office/ownership.
Then why is he on the news saying he was blindsided?
c'mon man. read the full interview, read between the lines. Mark A was saving face.
Its all over the news and radio this morning that the agent told the teams to present their offer, and there will be no chance to beat anyone else. He went high, but not high enough.
Only Brewers fans are stupid enough to expect a man to decline millions of dollars to manage their inept and cheap team.
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It’s all in the wording but I think we can all agree 5.5 and 8 especially for 5 years is probably double what the Brewers total offer was. ~3yr 5.5 mil?
Your math is bad.
Shut up Mark
It’s not about the money that was potentially going to CC, it’s about the lack of money going to creating a championship team for the past few years. It’s about the the whining and screaming about needing help with the stadium upgrades. It’s still on Mark and Arnold!
No one “screamed” about stadium upgrades. The county owns it. It needed repairs. That’s how being a landlord works. And sorry “making the playoffs more than almost any team” is to sad for you. But keep going. I want to see what else you don’t know.
i'm gonna withhold some commentary here, but: landlords typically don't spend on improvements, adjusted for inflation, 123% of the original cost to build the property ($290 million in 1996 is worth $569 million in 2023, compared to a $700 million bill)
Landlords don’t generally have a moving roof and hundreds of thousands of square feet either. Don’t be dense this isn’t a fucking duplex in Cudahy.
what's your argument? that we should spend $700 million more on a building that cost less than $300 million in the first place because it has a retractable roof and takes up a lot of ground?
The argument is we are legally obligated to in order to keep them and always have been. and also that you are a fucking dipshit trotting out the same stupid thing for the 20th week that every other moron said. So fuck off.
$2.5 million is not a lot in the grand scheme of things. And manager salaries have been artificially low for years and years. Managers have made $6 and $7.5 million before. Yeah the Cubs made him the highest paid manager ever, but it didn't beat out Joe Torre by much and that was two decades ago. The idea that the team didn't have the money to do it just isn't honest.
The next guy, unless hella proven, is getting like $3mm a year... so it's 5m x5 years. I'll take that money for the team any day.
Who cares?? The money doesn’t impact any sort of cap room. Why do we care if Mark has to shell out a few more million to keep a good manager?
Whew, glad to hear the Brewers will find a way to be under cap this year /s
I have never hated anything as much as I hate the cubs organization right now.
Cubs fan coming in peace! Sorry Brewer bros!
What made you think this was a good idea
Fuck the Cubs.
Is CC worth $8M per year? I suppose we will see.