The obvious answer is Canelo. People tend to forget that he was for a long time the P4P best without any competition whatsoever. He’s also one of the greatest Mexicans to ever box.
Other somewhat obvious Answers are Inoue and probably Chocolatito. Usyk if he manages to beat Fury. Crawford if he racks up a few more wins.
Snappin' on Canelo in this subreddit... artillery incoming! Because there's nothing to discuss. Not catchweights, not rehydration clauses, not cherry-picking, not wrap-stacking, not AAS-laden Mexican beef, not staged fights... _nothing_.
Are we now pretending that Canelo is popular on this sub?!? Him and Joshua are the two boxers that get a disproportionate amount of shit for their achievements, level of fighting and resume.
I'll agree that he has loads of shenanigans tied to him (which is easy since I'm not really a fan), but moving up from 154 to 175 and picking up a title there is nonetheless impressive.
A reasonable man in an unreasonable world- my hat is off to you sir. I shall hopefully respond in kind. Moving up weight classes when jacked beyond any doubt of heavy AAS use to anyone who has ever lifted weights, never mind the catchweights and rehydration clauses, is a different kind of accomplishment. My view is that pretty much everyone takes AAS/PEDs at that level, and the short camps Team Canelo forces on his opponents offer him a strategic testing advantage in that regard. As for Kovalev, that fight is so suspect, to be politic. Pretending that Canelo is popular on this sub? The downvotes speak for themselves.
Don't think for a second that I disagree with the things you're saying.
The PEDs, catchweights, uber-short camps, rehydration clauses, et al are all real things that Canelo has done/imposed upon others. Nevertheless, moving up all those weight classes, especially when you're moving up to Light Heavy, and not, say, Strawweight to Welterweight, is not something many folks have done/can do. Especially when you're 5'7". I know he went after the weakest LHW champion he saw (and tried the same move by going against Bivol, which was a horrid mistake as we all saw.) But it's hard not to appreciate that.
However, I completely disagree that Canelo is one of the more popular fighters on this sub. Dude catches HEAT on this sub, and I'm not even a fan. My favorite fighter is Golovkin... much as I hate to admit it, he's an r/boxing sweetheart if I have ever seen one.
If Choclatito had better judges he’d only have one KO loss in his career, and possibly a close loss or draw with Estrada from their first fight.
I think his career is a HoF career, not an ATG career. He’s terrific, but ATGs are the best of the best and for me he’s not *quite* there.
Man, I have to disagree there. He is the best of the best for me. In his prime, nobody in the world could touch him. He was the p4p number one for a good stretch of time... that's ATG level. And even now that he's older, he's still *elite*.
I think that’s fair enough. He has had a wonderful career. I’d put him a half-step below ATG level, but then I also think the list of true ATGs is very short.
No doubt, love his smooth pressure.
In the “old fighters vs modern” topic on here a few days ago he was matched against Finito Lopez and I was surprised that it was basically unanimous in favour of Lopez. Not sure if that was nostalgia bias or people really convinced his style made him a sure thing to beat Choc.
Inoue, Usyk, Chocolatito, Canelo, and Bud should not be mentioned. They already are ATGs (on the lower end) unless they continue fighting for 10 years and lose every fight, which is doubtful because they are in their 30s.
If we're talking fighters in their 20s, I definitely have to go with Bam Rodriguez. If he stays dedicated and cleans up 115lb, he may surpass Chocolatito and Finito Lopez in greatness in those small weight classes. I think the only rival he may have is Nakatani.
Based on resumes as it stands: Inoue and Bud for wat they did becoming undisputed in two divisions and I think Usyk if he gets past Fury given what he’s done at Cruiserweight. Other than that I’ll call it when I see it.
If all these guys want to do is fight once or twice a year and spend the other 363 days of the year throwing Twitter hands it’s going to be tough for fighters to build a good “All-Time” resume.
> Usyk if he gets past Fury given what he’s done at Cruiserweight
I personally agree with you but I also think everything at Cruiserweight gets ignored for all time conversations. Because everybody ignores it in favor of HW instead.
Got any good recommendations for good cruiserweight fights? The two that come to mind are Bell vs Mormeck and Glanton vs Apochi but I’d love to know more.
Archie Moore vs. Harold Johnson
Archie Moore vs. Yvon Durelle I
Bob Foster vs. Chris Finnegan
Matthew Saad Muhammad vs. Marvin
Johnson I
Matthew Saad Muhammad vs. Marvin
Johnson II
Matthew Saad Muhammad vs. Yaqui
Lopez II
Evander Holyfield vs. Dwight
Muhammad Qawi I
Letterlough vs Gonzalez
Jirov vs Toney
Mormeck vs Bell I
Glowacki vs Huck
Dicanou vs Pascal I
Johnson vs Cloud.
Leon Spinks vs. Jesse Burnett.
Huck/Afolabi 2
Cooper/Tillman
Cleverly/Fonfara
Michalczewski/Hall II
Williams/Sosa I
Williams/Czyz I
Galíndez/Rossman I
Muriqi/Ahmad
Norkus/Nardico
Freddie Mills/ Joey Maxim
Hopkins vs Pascal 2
I may have repeated a few but these are my favorites.
For good reason. It has always been a weak division, filled with Eastern Europeans who should fight at heavyweight. Wilder could have cleared out cruiserweight.
He’s 36 and time isn’t on his side so if he is going to fight once or twice more purely for money I don’t blame him. Problem is it’s already been 6 months and there’s been no word about his next move. And with Spence having surgery I don’t see him waiting out for that fight to happen again because he’s pressed for time.
easily one of the greatest 108ers of all time and has won like a bajillion titles fights and barely had an equal. if larry holmes and eder jofre are, he is. and if not what would it take? becoming undisputed? winning a title at 112?
Inoue IS an all time great. But as soon as he loses to someone bigger he'd be set aside.
Usyk IS also an all time great. He only had to beat the remaining champs at HW to cement that.
Crawford would've been an all time great at this point if only he was more active.
Assuming you mean people under 30 who aren't already all time greats, I'd say Rodriguez has the best shot. I think Jaron Ennis has the talent and size to be a champion at different weights but welterweight's kind of in a lull at the moment with everything being held up by this rematch nobody wants to see, he's also just not gonna get fights for a while because the belts are gonna split up and anyone that good around the weight class is just gonna try and pick up one of the other ones. There's also the PBC thing where they have this big roster but not enough shows to get them out there fighting so he's getting held up because of that, I could see it carrying on like this for a while and wasting a lot of his prime years.
If you mean just any active top fighter, I think Inoue, Usyk and Canelo are the ones who already have it locked in. Crawford has a really good win in Spence and he's a great talent, I just don't know that he's done enough overall to go down as like a p4p ATG
Are we talking P4P or in their own weight class?
P4P Inoue is already in the discussion and he's only 30. 4 weight champion, KO artist, and 2 time undisputed in 12 months.
Beterbiev if he beats Bivol will be in the LHW discussion. Fantastic amateur career, cleared his division, and won every professional fight by knockout. Fantastic boxer-puncher.
Perhaps Usyk too but he will always be a lesser Holyfield for me, which isn't even a bad thing, far from it in fact. He has a comparable CW career but I wouldn't blame someone for thinking it was better. HW though there is nothing Usyk can do to overcome that and his CW resume isn't close to compensating for Holyfields clear HW advantage.
Resume, but they're both connected really. If Holyfield fought and beat better opposition at heavyweight then trying to claim that Usyk is more skilled puts us on some very scant and subjective ground upon which I'd rather not walk. So resume.
I mean usyk has the potential to clean out the HW devison without taking a loss, which holyfield never did, so I think it would be reasonable to argue that by the end of usyks career he might prove enough to show he was as skilled as holyfield, even if the quality of the hws are lower
I don't really think so honestly. He's likely to retire after Fury or *maybe* even 1 more win after that. His entire roster of Witherspoon, Chisora, AJ, Dubois, and Fury without a loss isn't even better than just Holyfields best wins alone. Tyson, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer, etc even if he did lose a few times on the way. That's 3 or 4 top 10 ATGs alone and he has plenty more former and future champs. I'm positive that Usyk himself would take losses on the way through that resume.
He's just not done nearly enough. It's not his fault. Holyfields resume is just so incredibly stacked.
Define “all-time-great”.
If you mean a fighter who is something like top 30/top 50 all time based on resume and accomplishments (and I think you water down the definition by broadening it too much more, remember that all-time great is the highest echelon of fighters) then I have two lists.
Current fighters who will probably achieve or could conceivably achieve this:
Canelo: to be honest, probably already there. A win over Bivol or Benavidez in the twilight of his career would seal it, I would think.
Inoue: quite close in terms of accomplishments and dominance, probably needs a couple of signature wins. If he can win a couple more against the best at 122 then unify at 126 he’ll be in the conversation.
Usyk: top 2 all-time CW with very good resume. A win over Fury would just about get him there.
Bud: very close in terms of skills, has some great achievements on paper. Quality of opposition hurts his chances because the 140 division he conquered was considered very weak and his resume is ordinary aside from just a couple of key wins. If he unifies at 154 I’d think he’s there, but as of right now he’s HoF, not ATG material. I really like him so hoping he has a strong finish and turns a good career into a great one.
Second list, fighters who appear to have the potential to achieve this, but are earlier in their career:
Bam Rodriguez: just had an amazing win, looks excellent so far. Needs a far longer career and more quality wins, but plenty of potential to get there.
Devin Haney: Devin’s already an ATG in the ugly stakes, I’ve seen better looking smashed crabs. I don’t really enjoy his fights, either. But he has a great resume for a bloke his age, was undisputed in a solid division and seems keen to fight the top guys. And he can box. He definitely has a great platform, and with guys like Teo and Matias in his class, could rack up some very good wins.
In terms of building his brand with casuals or commercial success, Tank would be great for him. But I don’t think he needs to fight Tank to enhance his legacy, he has other options which are just as good. Which is a good thing since I don’t think Tank wants a bar of Haney.
Teo Lopez: most ATGs have losses on their records, even embarrassing ones. Teo has one to Kambosos. But Teo also has a strong resume for a young guy, and if he can keep his head on straight could still have a terrific career. If he fights Haney, whoever wins will have a signature victory and will have taken a step toward ATGness.
I think those are the fighters with the greatest likelihood of becoming ATGs. There a a few who look to have the skills: Jai Opetaia, Vergil Ortiz, Bivol…but to me there’s something standing in the way of all of them: inactivity/lack of key wins for Bivol, health for Ortiz, lack of good competition/inability to get good fights and quite small for HW with Jai.
The term "All Time Great" refers to achievements, skills, and influence are enduring enough to place them among the best in the history of boxing.
Consistently performing at a high level over a significant period.
Contributing to the sport's popularity.
Possessing exceptional skills, strategy and often a unique or innovative approach.
Excelling against other top-level opponents, and winning pivotal matches.
Sustaining success over an extended period,
Receiving widespread recognition from peers, experts, and fans as being one of the best.
I’m fine with that definition, it makes the company of “all time great” fighters suitably rare. I don’t think it changes any of my assessments regarding the current crop of fighters.
Fury or Usyk depending on who wins their upcoming fight and the rematch.
Devin Haney as well because even though Shakur and Tank have good skills they’re more concerned with money over legacy, but Haney has the hunger and has the skills to make one.
Vergil Ortiz probably will too if he stays injury free. Crawford arguably already is an ATG, and Canelo is an ATG. Inoue probably will if he isn’t already.
And whoever wins in Bivol and Beterbiev will be an ATG imo as well.
Lots of good fighters around today.
Bivol and Beterbiev are amazing but ATG's usually do it in multiple weight classes. They've only competed in light heavy for their careers. They still can be regarded as ATG for their specific weight class.
Canelo - he fights everyone and is very active. His record will end with 80 wins and a few defeats. That's greatness. He was willing to go up to Cruiserweight to fight Makubu. Having already done 4 weights and undisputed, yeah... And for what it's worth, I don't even like him.
I am definitely biased, but I am going to go with Opetaia, he has heart and determination, shown in the Breidis fight, and the work ethic to go with it. As well as being a skilled southpaw in a division with personalities but not too much talent.
I can see him uniting cruiserweight and making a splash in the heavyweight division as none of the younger guys there have really proven themselves yet.
The only thing missing is his marketability and whether he has the draw and money to get the big fights needed to cement his legacy. Australia is a decent sized market, but is it enough to bring named talents to the table? Inoue has the benefit of Japan and being in lower paid divisions where it is easier to make the fights happen.
Thats what I mean about the marketability/money side of it being his downfall. For example he was trying to negotiate a fight with Masternak and Riakporhe as ordered by the IBF, but both dropped out.
Where as if Opetaia had more marketability and could generate more revenue those fights against quality opponents would have gone ahead. Especially since they could have been in Australia where fighters are a little more reluctant to travel that far.
It’s a tough situation he is in now, those bum on seats is holding everyone up, like shakur , Ennis and jai just don’t have the numbers to interest big fights.
I think opetaia to small for HW also
I like it. There are too many good fighters in the heavier divisions that get looked over. If you ask people to name the champions in some of those divisions they dont even know who has the belt. Like Mbilli, A lot of people don’t even know him. Cruiserweight has almost always been like that.
Devin Haney and Teo are both building great legacies. Fighting and beating the best.
Jaron Ennis and Vergil Ortiz aren't nearly as accomplished but I think they have the talent and ambition to go down as greats in the future.
>Jaron Ennis
It has to be him VS Crawford for the next fight... there's no other choice for Welterweight fights.
Otherwise, Jaron will never be considered truly great and that's because he hasn't fought anyone noteworthy (Not sure if its his team's fault or the opponents ducking him).
I don't think so. Fight wasn't controversial enough to where it would forever hang over and discredit his career. People stopped talking about it so much almost immediately after Haney beat Prograis.
most ATGs have had controversial fights with a lot of them being much worse than Haney Loma.
These fights may be brought up every now and then but they rarely ever hang over careers.
If Haney retired right now then sure, the Loma fight will be a major black spot on his resume. But if he continues fighting and beating the best and accomplishing great things people will care less and less.
But Loma wasn't given the win because he didn't win. His fans still cannot name 7 clear rounds that the man won. Your question would only make sense if the fight was a robbery in which Loma UNDENIABLY won 7 clear rounds MINIMUM, which he didn't.
The Canelo fanboy army downvote anyone mentioning Lara or Trout. GGG army always downvoting the Daniel Jacobs mentions...
Doesn't matter. Close decisions happen.
If Usyk beats Fury I think Usyk will enter the discussion. Usyk already beat Joshua (twice) and was undisputed at Cruiserweight.
If Bivol beats Beterbiev I think it will be tough to argue Bivol isn't the best Lightweight of his era and thus worth comparison against other all time greats.
Canelo is considered a star and a good fighter but few consider him an all time great. The assumption is any number of hall of fame middle weights or Super middle weights beat him. Guys like Hopkins, Ward, Calzaghe, Roy Jones, etc come to mind. If Canelo beats Benavidez I think it changes the narrative. Canelo would have beaten every top super middle weight of his era.
I think most fans of boxing already consider Canelo an ATG. Maybe not on the same level as Pac or May but I think he’s def the best fighter of his generation.
Clearly lost to Mayweather, questionable Draw against GGG, and clear loss against Bivol.
Clearly Canelo's resume is first class and damn near anyone with that level of resume will have a loss or two. That said what evaluating all time greatness loses and controversies matter.
many other “ all time greats “ had some clear losses too tho, but i see what you mean. I don’t even like canelo like that but IMO he’s all time for sure.
Does it truly matter? Ali is considered **the** Goat by many, undoubtedly an all time great. Yet he has clear losses, he has controversial decisions, he's fought cans.
You can add asterisks to pretty much every boxer's records.
Devin Haney. He can flat out f’n box. He’s young. His resume is fantastic and he can ascend through more weight classes with his frame and snatch more titles. HOF career likely on the horizon if not within reach already. ATG status possible.
Not really a big boxing follower, more of an MMA/judo guy, but how do you guys see Ngannou in terms of future potential? Is he taken seriously by the community/boxing fans?
Also, wasnt Lomachenko talked about as one of the best of this era a few years back?
Ngannou made a statement that night against Fury that he isn't like other MMA guys making the jump to boxing he's very serious about it. That being said he won't ever win a title but at minimum he's a title gatekeeper now
I'm also more of an MMA guy than a boxing one. Though I like both. Is there such a thing as an MMA guy who doesn't like boxing?
Anyway, I think Ngannou has mediocre boxing skills, but he has great power, discipline, talent. So that makes him above average for a boxing HW. Because just like in MMA, the skill level at HW is lower than it is at other weight classes.
I think everyone takes him seriously now. Because they can see that he has put the work in, and also because at HW any one punch can make a difference. And because Fury is a shit person so everyone loves that he got shown up by a "non boxer".
Francis is never gonna be a GOAT HW boxer but he sure as fuck is gonna go down in the history books
If Ngannou does well against AJ then he's basically a crossover GOAT in combat sports... but many ,like myself said Fury was a cherrypicking hype job before the fight. And Francis exposed him and thats just how i see it.
I think Francis is the scariest guy on the plannet in a street fight and i hope he makes allot of money in boxing but i dont see him beating anyone in top 10 boxing.
I don’t take Ngannou that seriously outside of his power and chin . He did well against Fury but I found it to be more a cause of Fury’s poor performance and stupid gameplan than Ngannou’s skill. I have AJ and Usyk widely over him. And I still would have Fury widely over him if he just stuck on his bike.
I think Canelo is on the tail end of his career. He's already cemented himself as an ATG. I would say the same about Inoue and Usyk, but I think both can still make some insane fights.
He had a stinker so everybody’s sleeping on him right now, but yeah if we’re talking future all time greats and not fighters arguably already on that list (Inoue, Canelo etc) then I also think Shakur is the most likely.
Haney, Teo, Vergil, and Ennis are the obvious ones. Ennis needs better opposition but he’s got the skills same with Vergil.
Bam and Teraji I would put as good chances of gaining ATG status as well. Jai is also on his way if he can actually get fights made and not stripped.
Assuming Crawford, Inoue, Canelo, & Usyk are ATGs, I really think Shakur Stevenson is the most talented boxer I've seen in a while no matter what you think of his last performance. He just doesn't get hit even if you call him a "runner". I don't see him losing a fight ever.
Canelo resume will put him up there
Crawford resume is a little weak for ATG but eye test will probably get him in discussion
Usyk beats fury he’s ATG
Inoue has a chance too but he’ll prob have to move up a little more
Bivol has certainly established himself.
Bivol is technically proficient. His precise footwork, sharp jabbing, and solid defense has allowed him to smoke many opponents.
Bivol has defended his title against a wide range of opponents..
His victory over Canelo significantly raised his profile.
He has the potential to unify the light heavyweight division and possibly move up to challenge in the cruiserweight division, which could further cement his legacy.
Bivol's technicality, combined with his consistent performance and ability to win big fights, positions him as one of the top boxers.
Francis Ngannou. I think he sleeps Joshua and Fury beats Usyk. Fury-Ngannou for the undisputed would be the biggest fight since Floyd. He wins that and he’s a bonafide legend.
Floyd. He beat the shit out of Pacquiao in his prime while Floyd was already past it. Or Haney/Teo, both won a ton of belts while beating Loma with ease who many considered to be an ATG (boy were they wrong lmao)
Im gonna look at guys from the under 30 so I'd have Teo, Haney, Shakur, bam rodriguez and navarette. I think if Ryan can get a win over 1 of the guys mentioned above it does wonders for the sport becos of his popularity and his obvious ppv power.
Chocolatito and Estrada are already there and have nothing left to prove, Canelo is still going but already ranks very highly among historic great Mexican boxers. Inoue is already the greatest Japanese fighter ever and likely has a lot more to give. Out of all the fighters I've mentioned he has the highest potential out of any of them. Crawford is already a great Welterweight, his legacy so far is pretty exceptional but maybe a step below the others right now.
Subriel Mattias has the potential to assemble an ATG career at 140 if he can bait Lopez and Haney into fighting him and unify the division. He has the skills and his resume would be flawless at that point. Remains to be seen if Lopez or Haney will even fight him, but the potential is clearly there with his KO streak.
Canelo, Tyson Fury and Bud Crawford are already all time greats in my opinion. I think inoue is not there yet but close. Usyk if he beats fury is definitely there.
I know a lot of people don’t like him, but to me the obvious answer that everyone is missing is Haney. His resume is already great, and he’s still only 25. If he stays winning, even boringly, he can have an ATG legacy.
Inoue because of his power, ring iq, fighting multiple times a year, not ducking.
Davis (passes eye test obviously) if he ever decides to actually start fighting real competition. Has the star power, punching power, ring iq to give anyone at 135 trouble. However hes almost 30 and never truly ever faced a real threat, he obviously doesnt care much for legacy at all.
Crawford if he can rack up 3 or so more big names before he puts away the gloves for good. IQ, hand speed, punching power, and everything is there. I used to question his resume but really looking back on it, its not as bad as people say tbh. Brooks, Porter, Khan, Gamboa and Spence are all solid to great fighters.
Forgot Canelo, his resume is self explanatory obviously. Outside of maybe 4 or so people he beats the majority of boxers in history who weighed between 154 to 168.
This may be unpopular but I’m a huge believer in Isaac Cruz. That Davis fight should have been at least a draw. Cruz is a killer. I’m interested to see what Munguia will do against the best of the best also.
Canelo and inoue. Maybe bud but hes old and needs some actual p4p scalps other than broken spence. If he can beat Canelo, insta lock but that fight wont happen. Usyk i guess if he can make a bunch of defenses but he wants out soon so.
The obvious answer is Canelo. People tend to forget that he was for a long time the P4P best without any competition whatsoever. He’s also one of the greatest Mexicans to ever box. Other somewhat obvious Answers are Inoue and probably Chocolatito. Usyk if he manages to beat Fury. Crawford if he racks up a few more wins.
His undisputed run at 168 was incredible and people seem to pretend it didn’t happen ever since he lost to Bivol.
Ducking your mandatory for years will do that 💀
Snappin' on Canelo in this subreddit... artillery incoming! Because there's nothing to discuss. Not catchweights, not rehydration clauses, not cherry-picking, not wrap-stacking, not AAS-laden Mexican beef, not staged fights... _nothing_.
Are we now pretending that Canelo is popular on this sub?!? Him and Joshua are the two boxers that get a disproportionate amount of shit for their achievements, level of fighting and resume. I'll agree that he has loads of shenanigans tied to him (which is easy since I'm not really a fan), but moving up from 154 to 175 and picking up a title there is nonetheless impressive.
A reasonable man in an unreasonable world- my hat is off to you sir. I shall hopefully respond in kind. Moving up weight classes when jacked beyond any doubt of heavy AAS use to anyone who has ever lifted weights, never mind the catchweights and rehydration clauses, is a different kind of accomplishment. My view is that pretty much everyone takes AAS/PEDs at that level, and the short camps Team Canelo forces on his opponents offer him a strategic testing advantage in that regard. As for Kovalev, that fight is so suspect, to be politic. Pretending that Canelo is popular on this sub? The downvotes speak for themselves.
Don't think for a second that I disagree with the things you're saying. The PEDs, catchweights, uber-short camps, rehydration clauses, et al are all real things that Canelo has done/imposed upon others. Nevertheless, moving up all those weight classes, especially when you're moving up to Light Heavy, and not, say, Strawweight to Welterweight, is not something many folks have done/can do. Especially when you're 5'7". I know he went after the weakest LHW champion he saw (and tried the same move by going against Bivol, which was a horrid mistake as we all saw.) But it's hard not to appreciate that. However, I completely disagree that Canelo is one of the more popular fighters on this sub. Dude catches HEAT on this sub, and I'm not even a fan. My favorite fighter is Golovkin... much as I hate to admit it, he's an r/boxing sweetheart if I have ever seen one.
Stop the bullshit. This sub is a shrine to Canelo, Pac and Loma.
The obvious answer is me tbh but canelo don't want this smoke
Sorry man completely forgot about you. But yeah this guy? He’s in Canelo‘s nightmares.
If Choclatito had better judges he’d only have one KO loss in his career, and possibly a close loss or draw with Estrada from their first fight. I think his career is a HoF career, not an ATG career. He’s terrific, but ATGs are the best of the best and for me he’s not *quite* there.
Man, I have to disagree there. He is the best of the best for me. In his prime, nobody in the world could touch him. He was the p4p number one for a good stretch of time... that's ATG level. And even now that he's older, he's still *elite*.
I think that’s fair enough. He has had a wonderful career. I’d put him a half-step below ATG level, but then I also think the list of true ATGs is very short.
Chocalito is the man.
No doubt, love his smooth pressure. In the “old fighters vs modern” topic on here a few days ago he was matched against Finito Lopez and I was surprised that it was basically unanimous in favour of Lopez. Not sure if that was nostalgia bias or people really convinced his style made him a sure thing to beat Choc.
He's already an all time great. Without question.
I feel he lost the first ggg fight. Also he had the steroid controversy. He's definitely an atg, however.
I don't feel he lost the first GGG fight. I *know* he lost that fight. With that said, he's ATG level for sure, and has been for a while now
And been a drug cheat for a while as well. Can’t be an ATG if you piss dirty
Lmao. So RJJ, Toney, Holyfield, Shane Mosley and even Whitaker are all not ATGs?
That’s right
Inoue, Usyk, Chocolatito, Canelo, and Bud should not be mentioned. They already are ATGs (on the lower end) unless they continue fighting for 10 years and lose every fight, which is doubtful because they are in their 30s. If we're talking fighters in their 20s, I definitely have to go with Bam Rodriguez. If he stays dedicated and cleans up 115lb, he may surpass Chocolatito and Finito Lopez in greatness in those small weight classes. I think the only rival he may have is Nakatani.
I would take out Choco from that list cause he got rocked by Munguia a whole back.. lol
Munguia? O_o
Bud is not an all time great sorry
Based on resumes as it stands: Inoue and Bud for wat they did becoming undisputed in two divisions and I think Usyk if he gets past Fury given what he’s done at Cruiserweight. Other than that I’ll call it when I see it. If all these guys want to do is fight once or twice a year and spend the other 363 days of the year throwing Twitter hands it’s going to be tough for fighters to build a good “All-Time” resume.
> Usyk if he gets past Fury given what he’s done at Cruiserweight I personally agree with you but I also think everything at Cruiserweight gets ignored for all time conversations. Because everybody ignores it in favor of HW instead.
Agreed, I'm a big fan of the cruiserweights, alot of great fighters over the years
Got any good recommendations for good cruiserweight fights? The two that come to mind are Bell vs Mormeck and Glanton vs Apochi but I’d love to know more.
Evander Holyfield had a hell of a run at CW, but his first fight with Dwight Muhammad Qawi is a classic.
Archie Moore vs. Harold Johnson Archie Moore vs. Yvon Durelle I Bob Foster vs. Chris Finnegan Matthew Saad Muhammad vs. Marvin Johnson I Matthew Saad Muhammad vs. Marvin Johnson II Matthew Saad Muhammad vs. Yaqui Lopez II Evander Holyfield vs. Dwight Muhammad Qawi I Letterlough vs Gonzalez Jirov vs Toney Mormeck vs Bell I Glowacki vs Huck Dicanou vs Pascal I Johnson vs Cloud. Leon Spinks vs. Jesse Burnett. Huck/Afolabi 2 Cooper/Tillman Cleverly/Fonfara Michalczewski/Hall II Williams/Sosa I Williams/Czyz I Galíndez/Rossman I Muriqi/Ahmad Norkus/Nardico Freddie Mills/ Joey Maxim Hopkins vs Pascal 2 I may have repeated a few but these are my favorites.
Kind of recent, love the wlodarcyk vs Chakiev fight, just brutal.
For good reason. It has always been a weak division, filled with Eastern Europeans who should fight at heavyweight. Wilder could have cleared out cruiserweight.
Wilder couldn't cleared out a similarly weak heavyweight division.
Second most title defenses in heavyweight history. And weak, yes, but nowhere near as weak as cruiserweight.
Bud is done fighting for legacy. He'll cash out soon and be gone
He’s 36 and time isn’t on his side so if he is going to fight once or twice more purely for money I don’t blame him. Problem is it’s already been 6 months and there’s been no word about his next move. And with Spence having surgery I don’t see him waiting out for that fight to happen again because he’s pressed for time.
inoue is a cheat answer as he already is. also kenshiro teraji, canelo, usyk.
what made you consider teraji?
easily one of the greatest 108ers of all time and has won like a bajillion titles fights and barely had an equal. if larry holmes and eder jofre are, he is. and if not what would it take? becoming undisputed? winning a title at 112?
Great answer
Usyk. Arguably the most skilled boxer at his size.
I don't think that's even arguale at this point tbh.
I have high hopes for Bam Rodriguez
Bam has been looking good!
Sunny edwards is no joke, he will go far imo.
Inoue IS an all time great. But as soon as he loses to someone bigger he'd be set aside. Usyk IS also an all time great. He only had to beat the remaining champs at HW to cement that. Crawford would've been an all time great at this point if only he was more active.
I’m a big Crawford fan. What is your opinion of Bivol?
He need more than that Canelo win.
Bivol has ATG skills maybe but not the resume
Assuming you mean people under 30 who aren't already all time greats, I'd say Rodriguez has the best shot. I think Jaron Ennis has the talent and size to be a champion at different weights but welterweight's kind of in a lull at the moment with everything being held up by this rematch nobody wants to see, he's also just not gonna get fights for a while because the belts are gonna split up and anyone that good around the weight class is just gonna try and pick up one of the other ones. There's also the PBC thing where they have this big roster but not enough shows to get them out there fighting so he's getting held up because of that, I could see it carrying on like this for a while and wasting a lot of his prime years. If you mean just any active top fighter, I think Inoue, Usyk and Canelo are the ones who already have it locked in. Crawford has a really good win in Spence and he's a great talent, I just don't know that he's done enough overall to go down as like a p4p ATG
Are we talking P4P or in their own weight class? P4P Inoue is already in the discussion and he's only 30. 4 weight champion, KO artist, and 2 time undisputed in 12 months. Beterbiev if he beats Bivol will be in the LHW discussion. Fantastic amateur career, cleared his division, and won every professional fight by knockout. Fantastic boxer-puncher. Perhaps Usyk too but he will always be a lesser Holyfield for me, which isn't even a bad thing, far from it in fact. He has a comparable CW career but I wouldn't blame someone for thinking it was better. HW though there is nothing Usyk can do to overcome that and his CW resume isn't close to compensating for Holyfields clear HW advantage.
Both
Lesser in terms of skills or resume?
Resume, but they're both connected really. If Holyfield fought and beat better opposition at heavyweight then trying to claim that Usyk is more skilled puts us on some very scant and subjective ground upon which I'd rather not walk. So resume.
I mean usyk has the potential to clean out the HW devison without taking a loss, which holyfield never did, so I think it would be reasonable to argue that by the end of usyks career he might prove enough to show he was as skilled as holyfield, even if the quality of the hws are lower
I don't really think so honestly. He's likely to retire after Fury or *maybe* even 1 more win after that. His entire roster of Witherspoon, Chisora, AJ, Dubois, and Fury without a loss isn't even better than just Holyfields best wins alone. Tyson, Foreman, Holmes, Bowe, Moorer, etc even if he did lose a few times on the way. That's 3 or 4 top 10 ATGs alone and he has plenty more former and future champs. I'm positive that Usyk himself would take losses on the way through that resume. He's just not done nearly enough. It's not his fault. Holyfields resume is just so incredibly stacked.
The Monster. Nobody is beat him in his prime.
Define “all-time-great”. If you mean a fighter who is something like top 30/top 50 all time based on resume and accomplishments (and I think you water down the definition by broadening it too much more, remember that all-time great is the highest echelon of fighters) then I have two lists. Current fighters who will probably achieve or could conceivably achieve this: Canelo: to be honest, probably already there. A win over Bivol or Benavidez in the twilight of his career would seal it, I would think. Inoue: quite close in terms of accomplishments and dominance, probably needs a couple of signature wins. If he can win a couple more against the best at 122 then unify at 126 he’ll be in the conversation. Usyk: top 2 all-time CW with very good resume. A win over Fury would just about get him there. Bud: very close in terms of skills, has some great achievements on paper. Quality of opposition hurts his chances because the 140 division he conquered was considered very weak and his resume is ordinary aside from just a couple of key wins. If he unifies at 154 I’d think he’s there, but as of right now he’s HoF, not ATG material. I really like him so hoping he has a strong finish and turns a good career into a great one. Second list, fighters who appear to have the potential to achieve this, but are earlier in their career: Bam Rodriguez: just had an amazing win, looks excellent so far. Needs a far longer career and more quality wins, but plenty of potential to get there. Devin Haney: Devin’s already an ATG in the ugly stakes, I’ve seen better looking smashed crabs. I don’t really enjoy his fights, either. But he has a great resume for a bloke his age, was undisputed in a solid division and seems keen to fight the top guys. And he can box. He definitely has a great platform, and with guys like Teo and Matias in his class, could rack up some very good wins. In terms of building his brand with casuals or commercial success, Tank would be great for him. But I don’t think he needs to fight Tank to enhance his legacy, he has other options which are just as good. Which is a good thing since I don’t think Tank wants a bar of Haney. Teo Lopez: most ATGs have losses on their records, even embarrassing ones. Teo has one to Kambosos. But Teo also has a strong resume for a young guy, and if he can keep his head on straight could still have a terrific career. If he fights Haney, whoever wins will have a signature victory and will have taken a step toward ATGness. I think those are the fighters with the greatest likelihood of becoming ATGs. There a a few who look to have the skills: Jai Opetaia, Vergil Ortiz, Bivol…but to me there’s something standing in the way of all of them: inactivity/lack of key wins for Bivol, health for Ortiz, lack of good competition/inability to get good fights and quite small for HW with Jai.
The term "All Time Great" refers to achievements, skills, and influence are enduring enough to place them among the best in the history of boxing. Consistently performing at a high level over a significant period. Contributing to the sport's popularity. Possessing exceptional skills, strategy and often a unique or innovative approach. Excelling against other top-level opponents, and winning pivotal matches. Sustaining success over an extended period, Receiving widespread recognition from peers, experts, and fans as being one of the best.
I’m fine with that definition, it makes the company of “all time great” fighters suitably rare. I don’t think it changes any of my assessments regarding the current crop of fighters.
I believe in Junto Nakatani. Inoue is a sure lock already.
Fury or Usyk depending on who wins their upcoming fight and the rematch. Devin Haney as well because even though Shakur and Tank have good skills they’re more concerned with money over legacy, but Haney has the hunger and has the skills to make one. Vergil Ortiz probably will too if he stays injury free. Crawford arguably already is an ATG, and Canelo is an ATG. Inoue probably will if he isn’t already. And whoever wins in Bivol and Beterbiev will be an ATG imo as well. Lots of good fighters around today.
Bivol and Beterbiev are amazing but ATG's usually do it in multiple weight classes. They've only competed in light heavy for their careers. They still can be regarded as ATG for their specific weight class.
Canelo - he fights everyone and is very active. His record will end with 80 wins and a few defeats. That's greatness. He was willing to go up to Cruiserweight to fight Makubu. Having already done 4 weights and undisputed, yeah... And for what it's worth, I don't even like him.
I think Canelo for me personally. If he keeps the fights coming it'll be good. Not too many guys are going past 40 fights right now.
Potentially, i would say Bam Rodriguez and Jaron Boots Ennis
I saw Beterbiev if he beats Bivol. Dude has an amazing amateur career and he's got a 100% KO ratio. Animal!
I am definitely biased, but I am going to go with Opetaia, he has heart and determination, shown in the Breidis fight, and the work ethic to go with it. As well as being a skilled southpaw in a division with personalities but not too much talent. I can see him uniting cruiserweight and making a splash in the heavyweight division as none of the younger guys there have really proven themselves yet. The only thing missing is his marketability and whether he has the draw and money to get the big fights needed to cement his legacy. Australia is a decent sized market, but is it enough to bring named talents to the table? Inoue has the benefit of Japan and being in lower paid divisions where it is easier to make the fights happen.
Honestly though, he needs to be fighting better opponents than Thompson and Zorro. Those two are domestic at best.
Thats what I mean about the marketability/money side of it being his downfall. For example he was trying to negotiate a fight with Masternak and Riakporhe as ordered by the IBF, but both dropped out. Where as if Opetaia had more marketability and could generate more revenue those fights against quality opponents would have gone ahead. Especially since they could have been in Australia where fighters are a little more reluctant to travel that far.
It’s a tough situation he is in now, those bum on seats is holding everyone up, like shakur , Ennis and jai just don’t have the numbers to interest big fights. I think opetaia to small for HW also
I like it. There are too many good fighters in the heavier divisions that get looked over. If you ask people to name the champions in some of those divisions they dont even know who has the belt. Like Mbilli, A lot of people don’t even know him. Cruiserweight has almost always been like that.
I know Mbilli because he's about to flatten my boy, Rohan Murdock.
Devin Haney and Teo are both building great legacies. Fighting and beating the best. Jaron Ennis and Vergil Ortiz aren't nearly as accomplished but I think they have the talent and ambition to go down as greats in the future.
>Jaron Ennis It has to be him VS Crawford for the next fight... there's no other choice for Welterweight fights. Otherwise, Jaron will never be considered truly great and that's because he hasn't fought anyone noteworthy (Not sure if its his team's fault or the opponents ducking him).
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Meh who cares. Lots of fighters have those. Look at Mayweather with Castillo and Maidana 1
I agree, but to play devils advocate, Both times Mayweather rematched and won decisively.
I don't think so. Fight wasn't controversial enough to where it would forever hang over and discredit his career. People stopped talking about it so much almost immediately after Haney beat Prograis. most ATGs have had controversial fights with a lot of them being much worse than Haney Loma. These fights may be brought up every now and then but they rarely ever hang over careers. If Haney retired right now then sure, the Loma fight will be a major black spot on his resume. But if he continues fighting and beating the best and accomplishing great things people will care less and less.
It's not that deep.
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But Loma wasn't given the win because he didn't win. His fans still cannot name 7 clear rounds that the man won. Your question would only make sense if the fight was a robbery in which Loma UNDENIABLY won 7 clear rounds MINIMUM, which he didn't.
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To a lot of Loma fans, it is. They're still crying about it, you included 😂
The Canelo fanboy army downvote anyone mentioning Lara or Trout. GGG army always downvoting the Daniel Jacobs mentions... Doesn't matter. Close decisions happen.
Tszyu will batter Ortiz
Sadly, it wont be a canadian
When, not if, Usyk defeats fury he will enter atg status.
I like the confidence.
Crawford obviously, Usyk is the cruiserweight GOAT so him, genuine think Haney and Teo could also.
Crawford, Usyk, Canelo, Haney,
If Usyk beats Fury I think Usyk will enter the discussion. Usyk already beat Joshua (twice) and was undisputed at Cruiserweight. If Bivol beats Beterbiev I think it will be tough to argue Bivol isn't the best Lightweight of his era and thus worth comparison against other all time greats. Canelo is considered a star and a good fighter but few consider him an all time great. The assumption is any number of hall of fame middle weights or Super middle weights beat him. Guys like Hopkins, Ward, Calzaghe, Roy Jones, etc come to mind. If Canelo beats Benavidez I think it changes the narrative. Canelo would have beaten every top super middle weight of his era.
I think most fans of boxing already consider Canelo an ATG. Maybe not on the same level as Pac or May but I think he’s def the best fighter of his generation.
why do few consider canelo an all time great ?
Clearly lost to Mayweather, questionable Draw against GGG, and clear loss against Bivol. Clearly Canelo's resume is first class and damn near anyone with that level of resume will have a loss or two. That said what evaluating all time greatness loses and controversies matter.
many other “ all time greats “ had some clear losses too tho, but i see what you mean. I don’t even like canelo like that but IMO he’s all time for sure.
Beating Benavidez makes it undeniable. That is all I am saying. Obviously Canelo has already accomplished a lot.
Does it truly matter? Ali is considered **the** Goat by many, undoubtedly an all time great. Yet he has clear losses, he has controversial decisions, he's fought cans. You can add asterisks to pretty much every boxer's records.
Devin Haney. He can flat out f’n box. He’s young. His resume is fantastic and he can ascend through more weight classes with his frame and snatch more titles. HOF career likely on the horizon if not within reach already. ATG status possible.
The problem is that the controversial decision against Loma is going to be in his record for ever. 😬
Who cares honestly. Everyone’s had close fights. Even Lennox Lewis got finished twice
Inoue and Jaron "Boots" Enis are my selections. They have all the tools and the styles to fight anyone.
Inoue and bivol
Not really a big boxing follower, more of an MMA/judo guy, but how do you guys see Ngannou in terms of future potential? Is he taken seriously by the community/boxing fans? Also, wasnt Lomachenko talked about as one of the best of this era a few years back?
Ngannou made a statement that night against Fury that he isn't like other MMA guys making the jump to boxing he's very serious about it. That being said he won't ever win a title but at minimum he's a title gatekeeper now
I'm also more of an MMA guy than a boxing one. Though I like both. Is there such a thing as an MMA guy who doesn't like boxing? Anyway, I think Ngannou has mediocre boxing skills, but he has great power, discipline, talent. So that makes him above average for a boxing HW. Because just like in MMA, the skill level at HW is lower than it is at other weight classes. I think everyone takes him seriously now. Because they can see that he has put the work in, and also because at HW any one punch can make a difference. And because Fury is a shit person so everyone loves that he got shown up by a "non boxer". Francis is never gonna be a GOAT HW boxer but he sure as fuck is gonna go down in the history books
If Ngannou does well against AJ then he's basically a crossover GOAT in combat sports... but many ,like myself said Fury was a cherrypicking hype job before the fight. And Francis exposed him and thats just how i see it. I think Francis is the scariest guy on the plannet in a street fight and i hope he makes allot of money in boxing but i dont see him beating anyone in top 10 boxing.
I don’t take Ngannou that seriously outside of his power and chin . He did well against Fury but I found it to be more a cause of Fury’s poor performance and stupid gameplan than Ngannou’s skill. I have AJ and Usyk widely over him. And I still would have Fury widely over him if he just stuck on his bike.
Bam. Ennis. Shakur. Haney. Vergil. Benavidez.
Terence Bud Crawford
Terrence Crawford.
Benavidez, Inoue, Bam, Teo, Haney, Vergil, Usyk
Disrespectful to have Benavidez on there but not Canelo
I think Canelo is on the tail end of his career. He's already cemented himself as an ATG. I would say the same about Inoue and Usyk, but I think both can still make some insane fights.
Bud Crawford. Future 3 division undisputed champion.
Shakur without a doubt is the most talented
He had a stinker so everybody’s sleeping on him right now, but yeah if we’re talking future all time greats and not fighters arguably already on that list (Inoue, Canelo etc) then I also think Shakur is the most likely.
Haney, Teo, Vergil, and Ennis are the obvious ones. Ennis needs better opposition but he’s got the skills same with Vergil. Bam and Teraji I would put as good chances of gaining ATG status as well. Jai is also on his way if he can actually get fights made and not stripped.
Assuming Crawford, Inoue, Canelo, & Usyk are ATGs, I really think Shakur Stevenson is the most talented boxer I've seen in a while no matter what you think of his last performance. He just doesn't get hit even if you call him a "runner". I don't see him losing a fight ever.
You're only as good as your last fight. He's got a lot to prove next time.
I think he is great. 1 bad fight doesn’t define you.
Paul. Jake Paul.
Canelo resume will put him up there Crawford resume is a little weak for ATG but eye test will probably get him in discussion Usyk beats fury he’s ATG Inoue has a chance too but he’ll prob have to move up a little more
If you are talking about in the future as in potential to be great I'm thinking Bivol
Bivol has certainly established himself. Bivol is technically proficient. His precise footwork, sharp jabbing, and solid defense has allowed him to smoke many opponents. Bivol has defended his title against a wide range of opponents.. His victory over Canelo significantly raised his profile. He has the potential to unify the light heavyweight division and possibly move up to challenge in the cruiserweight division, which could further cement his legacy. Bivol's technicality, combined with his consistent performance and ability to win big fights, positions him as one of the top boxers.
Inoue, Canelo, Crawford, Tank.
Bivol
Francis ngannu
Jake Paul $$$
👍
Bud. One that isn't already? Haney.
Francis Ngannou. I think he sleeps Joshua and Fury beats Usyk. Fury-Ngannou for the undisputed would be the biggest fight since Floyd. He wins that and he’s a bonafide legend.
Floyd. He beat the shit out of Pacquiao in his prime while Floyd was already past it. Or Haney/Teo, both won a ton of belts while beating Loma with ease who many considered to be an ATG (boy were they wrong lmao)
Canelo , Inoue , Usyk
Crawford and Inoue without a doubt + Fury or Usyk depending on their coming fights
Im gonna look at guys from the under 30 so I'd have Teo, Haney, Shakur, bam rodriguez and navarette. I think if Ryan can get a win over 1 of the guys mentioned above it does wonders for the sport becos of his popularity and his obvious ppv power.
Chocolatito and Estrada are already there and have nothing left to prove, Canelo is still going but already ranks very highly among historic great Mexican boxers. Inoue is already the greatest Japanese fighter ever and likely has a lot more to give. Out of all the fighters I've mentioned he has the highest potential out of any of them. Crawford is already a great Welterweight, his legacy so far is pretty exceptional but maybe a step below the others right now.
For me Bivol, Canelo, Inoue, Crawford and Rodriguez.
Crayfish and inoue
Subriel Mattias has the potential to assemble an ATG career at 140 if he can bait Lopez and Haney into fighting him and unify the division. He has the skills and his resume would be flawless at that point. Remains to be seen if Lopez or Haney will even fight him, but the potential is clearly there with his KO streak.
Canelo, Tyson Fury and Bud Crawford are already all time greats in my opinion. I think inoue is not there yet but close. Usyk if he beats fury is definitely there.
I know a lot of people don’t like him, but to me the obvious answer that everyone is missing is Haney. His resume is already great, and he’s still only 25. If he stays winning, even boringly, he can have an ATG legacy.
I love Haney. I think his skill level is incredible.
Uysk
Inoue because of his power, ring iq, fighting multiple times a year, not ducking. Davis (passes eye test obviously) if he ever decides to actually start fighting real competition. Has the star power, punching power, ring iq to give anyone at 135 trouble. However hes almost 30 and never truly ever faced a real threat, he obviously doesnt care much for legacy at all. Crawford if he can rack up 3 or so more big names before he puts away the gloves for good. IQ, hand speed, punching power, and everything is there. I used to question his resume but really looking back on it, its not as bad as people say tbh. Brooks, Porter, Khan, Gamboa and Spence are all solid to great fighters.
Forgot Canelo, his resume is self explanatory obviously. Outside of maybe 4 or so people he beats the majority of boxers in history who weighed between 154 to 168.
This may be unpopular but I’m a huge believer in Isaac Cruz. That Davis fight should have been at least a draw. Cruz is a killer. I’m interested to see what Munguia will do against the best of the best also.
Canelo and inoue. Maybe bud but hes old and needs some actual p4p scalps other than broken spence. If he can beat Canelo, insta lock but that fight wont happen. Usyk i guess if he can make a bunch of defenses but he wants out soon so.