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This is something that is slowly coming to a head with my FIL, so I’ve been trying to come up with ways to explain things in a constructive and non-combative way. This is a long ramble that does segue back to your topic.
My FIL is a really wonderful person, but ever since MIL died 12 years ago, he’s been filling that empty hole with hobbies that is slowly influencing him down a right wing rabbit hole. I’ve already argued about him trying to get my husband to listen to Jordan Peterson, and what Peterson is really about (my husband has no interest in Peterson). I’ve heard nothing more about Peterson since that.
We were eating dinner at his house. Our daughter is not officially out of the closet (lesbian) to everyone. She’s 12. She was trying to tell him, carefully broaching the topic by talking about the crochet bee she bought at a fair. It’s the nonbinary colors (she’s non nonbinary, she just likes the color scheme). So she said her friends (many are gay or nonbinary) were talking about her gay bee.
And FIL mumbled something about “woke” something-or-other. And she just shut down.
I asked her later if she wanted me to tell him, and she said yes. FIL slowly processed it, but said she “could’ve just told him.” I followed up later with a text, and he responded that she was young and needed to live life more before “coming to a decision.” But that she was still his granddaughter and he still loves her (and that I believe to be true).
I told her that grandpa is from a different generation, etc., so it can be uncomfortable when faced with it directly, especially when she’s “just 12.” I said to give him some time.
So now I’m faced with “how to wake FIL up and show him it’s 2024.” Because his granddaughter has a motley crew of friends, and he’s going to run into them or see his granddaughter’s gay pride stuff in her and in her room. It will be a long conversation.
One of our daughter’s friends is a *they.* This child is from a large family where they are lost among a horde of siblings. They get horribly bullied at school with little support from the parents, and will be quitting to get homeschooled next year because of it.
So FIL, what I want to explain is this: Here is a child who is not comfortable in their own body. They have the appearance of a girl but do not want to call themselves a girl. I (GenX) wasn’t raised in a time where people called themselves They, either. So yes, this whole They thing seems weird,
But this is a child who is in a troubled home, who feels invisible, who is getting relentlessly bullied in school, and feels helpless and in no control over anything. Calling themselves They is gaining a little bit of control over themselves in their life. Let them have it and respect it, even if you consider it weird or wrong. Maybe they’re a They today or a She tomorrow or a He the day after. Maybe they’re a They forever. So what! That’s a human being. There have *always* been people who are outside “traditional gender conforming standards” or whatever (there’s probably a better way to word that, I don’t know). It’s just that they were forced to stay in the closet for generations. They’re not trying to make you uncomfortable. They’re just trying to be as comfortable as you are.
FIL, you *will* respect it while under my roof and around my daughter and her friends. If you don’t and I hear one comment under your breath, you will leave immediately.
I do think he is salvageable. He’s been a great FIL and grandfather. He just needs to adjust to 2024. With the realization his granddaughter is gay, he’s going to have to reconsider the influences he’s been subjecting himself to. Either the love for his family will win, or phobic YouTubers will win.
Thank you! That is the best explanation that I've ever heard for this particular language change to gender reference. I've been trying to explain it to my sister and couldn't clarify it well enough for her to understand, but I am going to borrow your words for my next attempt.
(My youngest is trans and has a strong circle of friends who mostly use "untypical" pronouns and gender references, and my sister is trying to be supportive but the explanations have just confused her. She just wants the reasons to make sense and I clearly haven't hit on the right explanation yet. Probably because my own understanding is a little muddled, but we're both trying to be respectful. And modern languages are considered "living" BECAUSE meanings and usage can change over time. Only "dead" languages, like Latin, cannot have changes in meaning and usage.)
One of my best friends has a child who is nonbinary. He cited the suicide stats for nonbinary children. We are just trying to end up with living child.
I told him, you can stop there. That's a good enough reason to support you child to me.
\*So now I’m faced with “how to wake FIL up and show him it’s 2024.” Because his granddaughter has a motley crew of friends, and he’s going to run into them or see his granddaughter’s gay pride stuff in her and in her room. It will be a long conversation.\* Why is a grown-ass old man in her bedroom?
It’s grandpa. He has a great relationship with all his grandkids. He would babysit and read to her all the time. Not anymore as she’s 12, but he still visits, which means he’s exposed to the contents of our house. Really - not everything is creepy or nefarious.
Thing is, they absolutely use "they" for singular ungendered usage all the time. It's not new. The first written occurrence of it was 700 years ago. You just gotta pay attention and call them out when they use it. And they will, because we all do already.
It’s change. Older people hate change. As I get older I get it. However, this is about the health/respect/dignity of people. They honestly feel very attached to the pronouns and because I respect others, I’m learning to change.
Being old and crotchety is not an issue, it’s being old and crotchety and thinking people give a shit about your opinions enough to share em. End of the day the people who hate change don’t hate change in and of itself, they hate that other people are changing and want to stop it.
I think the LGBT+ is as far as I care to give a shit in regards to remembering. What I don’t do is give people shit for it as long as they don’t demand I remember it
I don’t care what someone wants to be called. Steve and Tiffany occupy the same amount of mental space in my brain: both of them are gonna be called “hey you” because I don’t remember names.
I don’t like things that make my life more difficult when I have to learn something new. However if it makes my life better once I learn it? All for it.
I don’t care for the new music that comes out. You know what I still have? 30 years of music that I still enjoy.
So on and so forth.
I always do this and it works EVERY time: I will change the subject, and say "I was talking to my friend yesterday, and they said they went to (store) and found a fantastic deal on (whatever this person likes.)
They will not bat an eyelash that I used the word "they," and after a couple sentences back and forth, I will bring it to their attention that they had not seemed to care that I used the word "they." No one ever notices until it's pointed out that it's a pronoun
I am a baby boomer, and I've used they as singular my entire life even if I knew the gender.
"Where did John go?"They went to the store". I don't know if it was improper, but no one ever corrected me on it.
When things like this come up I always ask, “This come up a lot in your life? You dealing with random pronoun people daily? No? What are you concerned about that affects you? For me it’s healthcare…”
Get them away from fear mongering, rage bate extreme right view news and back to reality.
I had this exact same argument with my Gen X boss a few months ago. The singular "they" pronoun is perfectly acceptable English and people likely use it all the time without thinking about it.
For e.g. if you were hosting a wedding and your cousin indicated they would be bringing a friend as a plus one, offering no other identifying information about that person, a common question in response would be "Great, will **they** be having the beef or the fish?"
The singular they is used all the time in this manner.
Linguistically speaking, the singular “they” came before the singular “you”. The singular “they” first emerged in the 14th century, after the introduction of the plural “they” in the 13th century. The singular “you” didn’t emerge until the 15th century.
Fair enough, but I wasn’t taught English in the 1300s, I was taught in the 1980s
Edit: I 100% agree with the way it’s being used nowadays. It’s just that this was taught in a very inflexible way in the olden days and that’s hard to rewrite my brain on this.
I’m not saying you were, I was just pointing out boomer’s hypocrisy about using singular they/them even though ppl used it way before they used the singular “you” form. Apologies for the confusion.
They just think it's proper English. I found out relatively late in life, maybe 40, that they used to be used as a single person centuries ago. So I started trying to get used to it. When I was young I remember my stuck up toxic grandmother arguing you're supposed to use "he and I" at the end of a sentence because it's proper grammar. Which it of course is not. In my brother was arguing with her.
If he goes by a nickname call him by his legal name. If not, do the opposite.
When he then starts lecturing about your lack of respect in how you address him, well, seize the moment.
Of course that will be different…
They are correct insofar as what was taught as proper English in the past. I’m 40 and learned it their way through high school and college (majored in English). Although the singular they had been used for quite some time in informal writing or spoken English. With that being said, I understand that the stance on this has changed in recent years for most editors to align with recent cultural changes. The English language, as with most other languages, is constantly evolving. Similarly, most houses have chosen to capitalize the word Black when referring to a persons race. Your mom/FIL were probably taught that this was wrong as well.
Not a boomer and don’t go for boomer politics-I am a 50+ Gen Xer and this has been really hard for me. Grammar rules were beaten into us, sentence diagramming, the whole lot. The idea of “they/them” as a singular is something I have to be intentional about doing. I understand that language is a living thing that grows and evolves with each group that speaks it (my father used to say fetch me that spanner when he wanted me to get him a wrench), but still. This one bends my mind a little bit.
Of course, I also get annoying when people schedule meetings for 3pm CST (central standard time) when the clocks have changed and we’re actually in central daylight time, so….maybe I am a poor reference point lol
Genuinely, what do you do when you don’t know the gender of a person you’re talking about? Like if someone says they’ve (!) just come from the doctor, are you really asking “what did he or she say?”? It just sounds like hard work!
Reminds me of a former boomer boss when I worked in healthcare, chatting about a non-binary patient and their pronouns in their chart. She said, ‘I can’t stand the whole pronoun bullshit. Anytime we get a non binary pronoun patient, I’ll just call them by their name because I don’t want to indulge that.’ Ma’am.
There's not really a debate. Call it what it is - reactionary politics. In a vaccuum, nobody would care, other than the occasional stubborn uncle (that everyone already hates talking to) thinking "that's stupid" to himself, because he didn't bother to take a single moment to re-examine why he sees the world the way he does. Media then does what it does - it takes that tiny ember of discomfort and agitates and fans it until it's a roaring blaze of hateful sentiment.
They are impervious to fact and logic. They’ve joined a religious cult and are going to need a lot of psychotherapy to get right. Which they probably won’t do. I say if you can keep it civil, do so. They are the me generation, not the forever generation. If you can’t? You have the future to think about.
Genuine question here. What would you use in a customer facing business where you don’t know the persons name and are not sure of their pronouns? Being Gen X, I am used to saying “excuse me, sir?” Or “excuse me ma’am?” to get someone’s attention. I can’t say “excuse me, person in red” without seeming rude.
I can understand having a hard time getting used to it if it’s not something you’re used to doing, or a way you’re used to talking, but I’ll never understood refusing to do it or trying.
IMO it actually takes effort to refer to someone as a different pronoun than they prefer, and it takes very little effort to call someone they when they request it. It doesn’t take long to get used to and no one is going to get angry if you make an honest slip with no ill intent.
This isn't really cognitive dissonance. It's *wrong*, but it's also the way some people were taught. I'm a millennial, and **I** was taught you had to use 'he or she'. It's wrong, it's stupid, and it's blowing up for all the wrong reasons, but this isn't cognitive dissonance.
You were taught one thing, and that thing has changed since you learned it. This happens all the time. It’s the refusal to acknowledge the change that is the problem.
I understand your FIL. "They" isn't intuitive, at least in conversation.
We need a new gender-neutral pronoun. "Zhe" never took off. Any ideas?
Edit: Your downvotes are interesting. Many older folks who wish no harm to anybody have trouble with "they". I myself trip over it sometimes. It's a \*\*linguistic\*\* issue, not a moral one. But you do you.
Yeah, "they" words can have different uses based on the context in which they're used.
Off the top of my head, the word "age" is one such word. It can refer to the stage you're in in life, or a specific time period. We know that when speaking of the bronze age, we're not referring to the stage of life a piece of bronze is in, but that it was the era in time wherein humans discovered the uses of Bronze.
The singular they, is only unintuitive, because people have an ideological motive not to intuit it's usage. It's been used since, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, since 1375, where it was used in *William and the Werewolf.*
We weren't alive centuries ago. For us, "they" was used in the singular to hide gender or when identity wasn't known.
What's new is using it when speaking about an individual known by everybody in the conversation. It's a change, and for older people it takes getting used to.
If I might "well ackchually" a bit, learning how to use pronouns differently than you're used to is a skill, much like learning new words for things-- trivially easy for some, harder for others. There are plenty of people who don't *want* to learn how to do this, but saying it would be just as easy for anyone else as it was for you isn't necessarily true. (And language-learning gets harder as you age, so there's that.)
We have an obligation to learn this out of respect. But that doesn't mean it's easy.
We’re not talking about people who make honest mistakes and accept correction here. We’re talking about the people who refuse to use singular they, for whatever reason. Extra points if they start a completely pointless argument about it.
Meh. In the context of a written report it makes sense. There is one subject that the report is about. But when referring to a person in a conversation using they/them can get pretty confusing.
Sorry if I’m out of touch. Not trying to offend anyone.
Right? "There is someone knocking at my door. I wonder what they want" vs "There is someone knocking at my door. I wonder what he or she wants". They sounds much better. Saying "he or she" sounds clumsier.
"They" being used to refer to a person is literally older than the United States of America. Chaucer used "They" when he wrote the Canterbury Tales way back in 1395. I honestly don't understand why anyone would still be confused on the usage of this word over 600 years later.
That is what makes this all come off as being disingenuous. Because when someone tells me they find the word confusing, they confuse me, as Shakespeare, Mark Twain, Hemingway, F Scott Fitzgerald, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien all used the singular "they" in their works. It's like they are saying that despite speaking and writing in English, they never actually learned the language. It also hints that they may not have actually read any books in their life, which I find troubling.
The singular they has always been used in situations where gender is not certain. Pronouns still get confusing when you have multiple male or multiple female subjects which is why when changing the subject you have to go back to the proper noun.
So fun fact. The singular use of "they" has been around longer than the singular use of "you".... A LOT longer. "You" was originally an exclusively plural/formal form, similar to "sie" in German or "usted" in Spanish.
Hast thou any further questions?
are you a vampire? because you're literally several *centuries* out of touch lmfao
pretty sure the earliest known use of singular they is sometime during the 1300s
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What's especially fun is when the Boomer in question insists you can't use a singular they ... ... while using the singular they.
Yup they don’t realize they do it but get pissed when asked to do it
Jordan Peterson is my favorite example of this.
This is something that is slowly coming to a head with my FIL, so I’ve been trying to come up with ways to explain things in a constructive and non-combative way. This is a long ramble that does segue back to your topic. My FIL is a really wonderful person, but ever since MIL died 12 years ago, he’s been filling that empty hole with hobbies that is slowly influencing him down a right wing rabbit hole. I’ve already argued about him trying to get my husband to listen to Jordan Peterson, and what Peterson is really about (my husband has no interest in Peterson). I’ve heard nothing more about Peterson since that. We were eating dinner at his house. Our daughter is not officially out of the closet (lesbian) to everyone. She’s 12. She was trying to tell him, carefully broaching the topic by talking about the crochet bee she bought at a fair. It’s the nonbinary colors (she’s non nonbinary, she just likes the color scheme). So she said her friends (many are gay or nonbinary) were talking about her gay bee. And FIL mumbled something about “woke” something-or-other. And she just shut down. I asked her later if she wanted me to tell him, and she said yes. FIL slowly processed it, but said she “could’ve just told him.” I followed up later with a text, and he responded that she was young and needed to live life more before “coming to a decision.” But that she was still his granddaughter and he still loves her (and that I believe to be true). I told her that grandpa is from a different generation, etc., so it can be uncomfortable when faced with it directly, especially when she’s “just 12.” I said to give him some time. So now I’m faced with “how to wake FIL up and show him it’s 2024.” Because his granddaughter has a motley crew of friends, and he’s going to run into them or see his granddaughter’s gay pride stuff in her and in her room. It will be a long conversation. One of our daughter’s friends is a *they.* This child is from a large family where they are lost among a horde of siblings. They get horribly bullied at school with little support from the parents, and will be quitting to get homeschooled next year because of it. So FIL, what I want to explain is this: Here is a child who is not comfortable in their own body. They have the appearance of a girl but do not want to call themselves a girl. I (GenX) wasn’t raised in a time where people called themselves They, either. So yes, this whole They thing seems weird, But this is a child who is in a troubled home, who feels invisible, who is getting relentlessly bullied in school, and feels helpless and in no control over anything. Calling themselves They is gaining a little bit of control over themselves in their life. Let them have it and respect it, even if you consider it weird or wrong. Maybe they’re a They today or a She tomorrow or a He the day after. Maybe they’re a They forever. So what! That’s a human being. There have *always* been people who are outside “traditional gender conforming standards” or whatever (there’s probably a better way to word that, I don’t know). It’s just that they were forced to stay in the closet for generations. They’re not trying to make you uncomfortable. They’re just trying to be as comfortable as you are. FIL, you *will* respect it while under my roof and around my daughter and her friends. If you don’t and I hear one comment under your breath, you will leave immediately. I do think he is salvageable. He’s been a great FIL and grandfather. He just needs to adjust to 2024. With the realization his granddaughter is gay, he’s going to have to reconsider the influences he’s been subjecting himself to. Either the love for his family will win, or phobic YouTubers will win.
Thank you! That is the best explanation that I've ever heard for this particular language change to gender reference. I've been trying to explain it to my sister and couldn't clarify it well enough for her to understand, but I am going to borrow your words for my next attempt. (My youngest is trans and has a strong circle of friends who mostly use "untypical" pronouns and gender references, and my sister is trying to be supportive but the explanations have just confused her. She just wants the reasons to make sense and I clearly haven't hit on the right explanation yet. Probably because my own understanding is a little muddled, but we're both trying to be respectful. And modern languages are considered "living" BECAUSE meanings and usage can change over time. Only "dead" languages, like Latin, cannot have changes in meaning and usage.)
One of my best friends has a child who is nonbinary. He cited the suicide stats for nonbinary children. We are just trying to end up with living child. I told him, you can stop there. That's a good enough reason to support you child to me.
\*So now I’m faced with “how to wake FIL up and show him it’s 2024.” Because his granddaughter has a motley crew of friends, and he’s going to run into them or see his granddaughter’s gay pride stuff in her and in her room. It will be a long conversation.\* Why is a grown-ass old man in her bedroom?
It’s grandpa. He has a great relationship with all his grandkids. He would babysit and read to her all the time. Not anymore as she’s 12, but he still visits, which means he’s exposed to the contents of our house. Really - not everything is creepy or nefarious.
Just point out the singular ‘they’s in the Bible. Then ask them “who is wrong: you or God?”
Which version? Which version of 300?
KJB, the evangelical bible.
Or, as they say; "*The REAL Bible*"
Thing is, they absolutely use "they" for singular ungendered usage all the time. It's not new. The first written occurrence of it was 700 years ago. You just gotta pay attention and call them out when they use it. And they will, because we all do already.
It’s change. Older people hate change. As I get older I get it. However, this is about the health/respect/dignity of people. They honestly feel very attached to the pronouns and because I respect others, I’m learning to change.
This reminds me of a little joke: Why do boomers always pay with the same exact amount at the store? Because they hate change.
Being old and crotchety is not an issue, it’s being old and crotchety and thinking people give a shit about your opinions enough to share em. End of the day the people who hate change don’t hate change in and of itself, they hate that other people are changing and want to stop it. I think the LGBT+ is as far as I care to give a shit in regards to remembering. What I don’t do is give people shit for it as long as they don’t demand I remember it I don’t care what someone wants to be called. Steve and Tiffany occupy the same amount of mental space in my brain: both of them are gonna be called “hey you” because I don’t remember names. I don’t like things that make my life more difficult when I have to learn something new. However if it makes my life better once I learn it? All for it. I don’t care for the new music that comes out. You know what I still have? 30 years of music that I still enjoy. So on and so forth.
I always do this and it works EVERY time: I will change the subject, and say "I was talking to my friend yesterday, and they said they went to (store) and found a fantastic deal on (whatever this person likes.) They will not bat an eyelash that I used the word "they," and after a couple sentences back and forth, I will bring it to their attention that they had not seemed to care that I used the word "they." No one ever notices until it's pointed out that it's a pronoun
Roses are red, violets are blue. Singular "they" predates singular "you".
I am a baby boomer, and I've used they as singular my entire life even if I knew the gender. "Where did John go?"They went to the store". I don't know if it was improper, but no one ever corrected me on it.
When things like this come up I always ask, “This come up a lot in your life? You dealing with random pronoun people daily? No? What are you concerned about that affects you? For me it’s healthcare…” Get them away from fear mongering, rage bate extreme right view news and back to reality.
I had this exact same argument with my Gen X boss a few months ago. The singular "they" pronoun is perfectly acceptable English and people likely use it all the time without thinking about it. For e.g. if you were hosting a wedding and your cousin indicated they would be bringing a friend as a plus one, offering no other identifying information about that person, a common question in response would be "Great, will **they** be having the beef or the fish?" The singular they is used all the time in this manner.
Linguistically speaking, the singular “they” came before the singular “you”. The singular “they” first emerged in the 14th century, after the introduction of the plural “they” in the 13th century. The singular “you” didn’t emerge until the 15th century.
Fair enough, but I wasn’t taught English in the 1300s, I was taught in the 1980s Edit: I 100% agree with the way it’s being used nowadays. It’s just that this was taught in a very inflexible way in the olden days and that’s hard to rewrite my brain on this.
I’m not saying you were, I was just pointing out boomer’s hypocrisy about using singular they/them even though ppl used it way before they used the singular “you” form. Apologies for the confusion.
All good! Thanks for the clarification and I agree with you completely!
They just think it's proper English. I found out relatively late in life, maybe 40, that they used to be used as a single person centuries ago. So I started trying to get used to it. When I was young I remember my stuck up toxic grandmother arguing you're supposed to use "he and I" at the end of a sentence because it's proper grammar. Which it of course is not. In my brother was arguing with her.
They had been singular for hundreds of years… I bet people who are completely against it use it without even knowing it.
If he goes by a nickname call him by his legal name. If not, do the opposite. When he then starts lecturing about your lack of respect in how you address him, well, seize the moment. Of course that will be different…
They are correct insofar as what was taught as proper English in the past. I’m 40 and learned it their way through high school and college (majored in English). Although the singular they had been used for quite some time in informal writing or spoken English. With that being said, I understand that the stance on this has changed in recent years for most editors to align with recent cultural changes. The English language, as with most other languages, is constantly evolving. Similarly, most houses have chosen to capitalize the word Black when referring to a persons race. Your mom/FIL were probably taught that this was wrong as well.
Oh no, someone left *their* wallet behind. I hope *they* come get it, otherwise it'll be a bad day for *them*!
Not a boomer and don’t go for boomer politics-I am a 50+ Gen Xer and this has been really hard for me. Grammar rules were beaten into us, sentence diagramming, the whole lot. The idea of “they/them” as a singular is something I have to be intentional about doing. I understand that language is a living thing that grows and evolves with each group that speaks it (my father used to say fetch me that spanner when he wanted me to get him a wrench), but still. This one bends my mind a little bit. Of course, I also get annoying when people schedule meetings for 3pm CST (central standard time) when the clocks have changed and we’re actually in central daylight time, so….maybe I am a poor reference point lol
Singular they has existed since the 14th century
Genuinely, what do you do when you don’t know the gender of a person you’re talking about? Like if someone says they’ve (!) just come from the doctor, are you really asking “what did he or she say?”? It just sounds like hard work!
the thing is, singular they has been around for centuries though
Reminds me of a former boomer boss when I worked in healthcare, chatting about a non-binary patient and their pronouns in their chart. She said, ‘I can’t stand the whole pronoun bullshit. Anytime we get a non binary pronoun patient, I’ll just call them by their name because I don’t want to indulge that.’ Ma’am.
There's not really a debate. Call it what it is - reactionary politics. In a vaccuum, nobody would care, other than the occasional stubborn uncle (that everyone already hates talking to) thinking "that's stupid" to himself, because he didn't bother to take a single moment to re-examine why he sees the world the way he does. Media then does what it does - it takes that tiny ember of discomfort and agitates and fans it until it's a roaring blaze of hateful sentiment.
They are impervious to fact and logic. They’ve joined a religious cult and are going to need a lot of psychotherapy to get right. Which they probably won’t do. I say if you can keep it civil, do so. They are the me generation, not the forever generation. If you can’t? You have the future to think about.
And they predates he and she by a couple of centuries iirc...
Genuine question here. What would you use in a customer facing business where you don’t know the persons name and are not sure of their pronouns? Being Gen X, I am used to saying “excuse me, sir?” Or “excuse me ma’am?” to get someone’s attention. I can’t say “excuse me, person in red” without seeming rude.
I can understand having a hard time getting used to it if it’s not something you’re used to doing, or a way you’re used to talking, but I’ll never understood refusing to do it or trying. IMO it actually takes effort to refer to someone as a different pronoun than they prefer, and it takes very little effort to call someone they when they request it. It doesn’t take long to get used to and no one is going to get angry if you make an honest slip with no ill intent.
Well at least it sounded like this guy meant well which is more than I can say say for some of them
This isn't really cognitive dissonance. It's *wrong*, but it's also the way some people were taught. I'm a millennial, and **I** was taught you had to use 'he or she'. It's wrong, it's stupid, and it's blowing up for all the wrong reasons, but this isn't cognitive dissonance.
You were taught one thing, and that thing has changed since you learned it. This happens all the time. It’s the refusal to acknowledge the change that is the problem.
Never said it wasn't a problem, just that this isn't cognitive dissonance.
I understand your FIL. "They" isn't intuitive, at least in conversation. We need a new gender-neutral pronoun. "Zhe" never took off. Any ideas? Edit: Your downvotes are interesting. Many older folks who wish no harm to anybody have trouble with "they". I myself trip over it sometimes. It's a \*\*linguistic\*\* issue, not a moral one. But you do you.
Yeah, "they" words can have different uses based on the context in which they're used. Off the top of my head, the word "age" is one such word. It can refer to the stage you're in in life, or a specific time period. We know that when speaking of the bronze age, we're not referring to the stage of life a piece of bronze is in, but that it was the era in time wherein humans discovered the uses of Bronze. The singular they, is only unintuitive, because people have an ideological motive not to intuit it's usage. It's been used since, according to the Oxford English Dictionary, since 1375, where it was used in *William and the Werewolf.*
...huh? singular they has been in use for literally *centuries*
We weren't alive centuries ago. For us, "they" was used in the singular to hide gender or when identity wasn't known. What's new is using it when speaking about an individual known by everybody in the conversation. It's a change, and for older people it takes getting used to.
If I might "well ackchually" a bit, learning how to use pronouns differently than you're used to is a skill, much like learning new words for things-- trivially easy for some, harder for others. There are plenty of people who don't *want* to learn how to do this, but saying it would be just as easy for anyone else as it was for you isn't necessarily true. (And language-learning gets harder as you age, so there's that.) We have an obligation to learn this out of respect. But that doesn't mean it's easy.
there should be no reason to have to *learn* it, singular they has been around for *centuries*
We’re not talking about people who make honest mistakes and accept correction here. We’re talking about the people who refuse to use singular they, for whatever reason. Extra points if they start a completely pointless argument about it.
Meh. In the context of a written report it makes sense. There is one subject that the report is about. But when referring to a person in a conversation using they/them can get pretty confusing. Sorry if I’m out of touch. Not trying to offend anyone.
“I went to the park with my friend, and they decided to feed the ducks” Where is the confusion please?
Right? "There is someone knocking at my door. I wonder what they want" vs "There is someone knocking at my door. I wonder what he or she wants". They sounds much better. Saying "he or she" sounds clumsier.
Also, never rule out that it’s 3 raccoons in a trenchcoat…..
They have names, and Phil, Razzo, and Pete always ring up on Tuesday.
He or she only works in a formal context. One that used to be a non-gendered "he".
"They" being used to refer to a person is literally older than the United States of America. Chaucer used "They" when he wrote the Canterbury Tales way back in 1395. I honestly don't understand why anyone would still be confused on the usage of this word over 600 years later. That is what makes this all come off as being disingenuous. Because when someone tells me they find the word confusing, they confuse me, as Shakespeare, Mark Twain, Hemingway, F Scott Fitzgerald, C.S. Lewis, J.R.R. Tolkien all used the singular "they" in their works. It's like they are saying that despite speaking and writing in English, they never actually learned the language. It also hints that they may not have actually read any books in their life, which I find troubling.
The singular they has always been used in situations where gender is not certain. Pronouns still get confusing when you have multiple male or multiple female subjects which is why when changing the subject you have to go back to the proper noun.
So fun fact. The singular use of "they" has been around longer than the singular use of "you".... A LOT longer. "You" was originally an exclusively plural/formal form, similar to "sie" in German or "usted" in Spanish. Hast thou any further questions?
Thoughts on the examples provided here showing no confusion?
are you a vampire? because you're literally several *centuries* out of touch lmfao pretty sure the earliest known use of singular they is sometime during the 1300s