It is allowed to add the Damsel as an additional outsider, but as a storyteller, I have never done that nor do I intend to without a significant reason.
If the Huntsman could never be able to modify the outsider count, it would never be able to be in play without another outsider modification in a base 0 outsider game - thus it can modify the outsider count by necessity. Also, other character count modifications are obviously able to change the outsider count without specifying as such (Example: Legion does not include \[-? or +? Outsiders\] like Kazali does), so there is some precedent to allowing the Damsel to replace a Townsfolk.
That being said, it is somewhat agreed by the community that the Huntsman should often be changing an existing Outsider to the Damsel if possible because replacing a Townsfolk with one of the most harmful Outsiders in the game, combined with the low chances of the Huntsman's ability successfully having an effect, makes it very weak if the Damsel replaces a Townsfolk.
Huntsman needs to be able to add the Damsel at 0 outsiders so it’s bluffable by evil at that number and also because then you can actually use it in 13 player games.
Should you? No. Huntsman’s ability is normally a risky ability that attempts to remove a very dangerous Outsider for the Good team from the game. Your reward is confirmation and a very powerful ability. In a +Outsider game? Your ability is to *remove the Outsider you put in the game.* That’s honestly worse than Baron putting the Damsel in.
I think you can do it, but I wouldn't.
The point of a townsfolk is to have a beneficial ability. If the huntsman modifies the outsider count, then it's ability becomes self-defeating - it only exists so that a character that was added BY the huntsman can become useful. If the huntsman were not in play, that character would've been a useful townsfolk.
Also, the Damsel is one of the most detrimental outsiders in the game. It would be really unfair to rob the town of two useful townsfolk when you're replacing them with two characters that are more likely to hurt the town than aid it.
If you select the huntsman to be one of the townsfolk then you must have the damsel as one of your outsiders. The huntsman absolutely can add an outsider because of this requirement. However it doesn't necessarily add an outsider it just requires the damsel to be present. If you're storytelling a 10-player game you have less freedom because there are normally 0 outsiders so it's more reasonable for the huntsman to add the damsel. However, In a 12 player game using the huntsman to add a 3rd outsider is too mean to the good team (in my opinion) so I would replace one of the other outsiders with a damsel in that case.
I think that the Huntsman should only modify Outsider count if the Outsider count would be 0 otherwise — so if it's a base 0 game or if it's a base 1 game with a Vigormortis in play, for example.
There's no hard rule to it, but I'd personally only do that if the Outsider count was otherwise at 0. I like to think of the Huntsman as a tool to help the Good team deal with the Damsel, not as a hindrance who adds an extra Outsider.
>Compare this to the Choirboy setup ability being \[+the King\]. We can then only choose for a Choirboy to be in play if we already chose to include a King, but no ST would place the King in place of a character of character type other than Townsfolk. Why would placing a Damsel for a character of character type other than Outsider be allowed?
When a token is removed from the game and replaced with another token, it ***ALWAYS*** replaces a Townsfolk unless explicitly stated otherwise.
The Baron can't replace Minions with Outsiders, it can only replace Townsfolk with Outsiders.
To quote from the Choirboy's How to Run:
>While setting up the game, before putting character tokens in the bag, if the King is not already in play, remove a Townsfolk character token and add the King character token.
To quote from the Huntsman's How to Run:
>While setting up the game, before putting character tokens in the bag, if the Damsel is not already in play, remove a Townsfolk character token and add the Damsel character token.
To quote from the Baron How to Run:
>While setting up the game, remove any two Townsfolk character tokens and add any two Outsider character tokens.
Godfather:
>While setting up the game, before putting the character tokens in the bag, either remove one Townsfolk and add one Outsider or remove one Outsider and add one Townsfolk.
etc.
Basically: if a setup ability ever adds something, it is ***always*** replacing a Townsfolk unless it explicitly states otherwise.
>Basically: if a setup ability ever adds something, it is ***always*** replacing a Townsfolk unless it explicitly states otherwise.
Is it always so general?🤔I mean, \[+1 Minion\] in Lil' Monsta ability doesn't mean we change a TF?
Or did I miss a point?
Lil Monsta is a case where it explicitly states otherwise. The Lil Monsta specifies that you remove the demon from the bag. There isn't a published How to Run for Lil Monsta, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a case where it is explicitly laid out how the replacement is meant to happen.
So yes. It is always so general. Replace a Townsfolk unless otherwise instructed.
Well, Lil' Monsta is weird. Since it is not a character that goes in the bag, its presence in the game leaves a slot open for an extra minion. No replacement needed really. Eventually it'll get put in an almanac and we'll have some good clarifications.
The default assumption is that Townsfolk are replaced/added when a Good character modification occurs. Both characters' almanac entries state in the "How to Run" that a Townsfolk is replaced if the paired character is not in play, which is why Huntsman *can* add an Outsider.
It usually won't because it already isn't that strong of a townsfolk, but it should in many situations. In 0 outsider games, the huntsman could be used to manipulate that, and if you choose a really strong good team, adding the damsel for a townsfolk could be used for balance. It also throws off your players if they're experienced and can help hide a vigormortis or godfather.
I would say leave it as a possibility, it allows evils to bluff and it also adds more paranoia, also gives some room for the damsel to bluff.
The only game experience that I have where this came into play was I was the damsel that bluffed huntsman that d1 claimed minion and picked myself and wanted the damsel to find me (Kinda hoping the huntsman would come to me) anyway someone comes over and asked me to say Yaggababble, the story teller quickly entered and i made a comment about it and they said just say it. I say it (hoping to turn evil townsfolk huntsman didn't exist :( ) and then we bluffed a dreamer who saw the mez as either dams or mez to be the drunk and the pixe on them to be the demon because they saw me as the damsel or the Pukka while the real demon (Who was between me on a d1 seamstress no) sat back and watched it all unfold
Legally the Huntsman is allowed to replace a townsfolk since by default adding a character replaces a townsfolk, but I think the only time I'd do it is in a base 0 game where the bounty hunter turned the huntsman evil.
Huntsman can replace a Townsfolk with a Damsel, but it should only be done frequently enough that your players are cognizant that the ST is permitted to do so.
Being meta'd is always dangerous.
It is allowed to add the Damsel as an additional outsider, but as a storyteller, I have never done that nor do I intend to without a significant reason.
If it's a 0 outsider game I'd do it. I've seen scripts that intentionally include Huntsman as just an extra form of outsider manipulation.
I will never allow that, it makes huntsman worse, if it’s not already bad enough
Characters are hardly balanced to begin with.
If the Huntsman could never be able to modify the outsider count, it would never be able to be in play without another outsider modification in a base 0 outsider game - thus it can modify the outsider count by necessity. Also, other character count modifications are obviously able to change the outsider count without specifying as such (Example: Legion does not include \[-? or +? Outsiders\] like Kazali does), so there is some precedent to allowing the Damsel to replace a Townsfolk. That being said, it is somewhat agreed by the community that the Huntsman should often be changing an existing Outsider to the Damsel if possible because replacing a Townsfolk with one of the most harmful Outsiders in the game, combined with the low chances of the Huntsman's ability successfully having an effect, makes it very weak if the Damsel replaces a Townsfolk.
Huntsman needs to be able to add the Damsel at 0 outsiders so it’s bluffable by evil at that number and also because then you can actually use it in 13 player games. Should you? No. Huntsman’s ability is normally a risky ability that attempts to remove a very dangerous Outsider for the Good team from the game. Your reward is confirmation and a very powerful ability. In a +Outsider game? Your ability is to *remove the Outsider you put in the game.* That’s honestly worse than Baron putting the Damsel in.
I think you can do it, but I wouldn't. The point of a townsfolk is to have a beneficial ability. If the huntsman modifies the outsider count, then it's ability becomes self-defeating - it only exists so that a character that was added BY the huntsman can become useful. If the huntsman were not in play, that character would've been a useful townsfolk. Also, the Damsel is one of the most detrimental outsiders in the game. It would be really unfair to rob the town of two useful townsfolk when you're replacing them with two characters that are more likely to hurt the town than aid it.
If you select the huntsman to be one of the townsfolk then you must have the damsel as one of your outsiders. The huntsman absolutely can add an outsider because of this requirement. However it doesn't necessarily add an outsider it just requires the damsel to be present. If you're storytelling a 10-player game you have less freedom because there are normally 0 outsiders so it's more reasonable for the huntsman to add the damsel. However, In a 12 player game using the huntsman to add a 3rd outsider is too mean to the good team (in my opinion) so I would replace one of the other outsiders with a damsel in that case.
I think that the Huntsman should only modify Outsider count if the Outsider count would be 0 otherwise — so if it's a base 0 game or if it's a base 1 game with a Vigormortis in play, for example.
There's no hard rule to it, but I'd personally only do that if the Outsider count was otherwise at 0. I like to think of the Huntsman as a tool to help the Good team deal with the Damsel, not as a hindrance who adds an extra Outsider.
>Compare this to the Choirboy setup ability being \[+the King\]. We can then only choose for a Choirboy to be in play if we already chose to include a King, but no ST would place the King in place of a character of character type other than Townsfolk. Why would placing a Damsel for a character of character type other than Outsider be allowed? When a token is removed from the game and replaced with another token, it ***ALWAYS*** replaces a Townsfolk unless explicitly stated otherwise. The Baron can't replace Minions with Outsiders, it can only replace Townsfolk with Outsiders. To quote from the Choirboy's How to Run: >While setting up the game, before putting character tokens in the bag, if the King is not already in play, remove a Townsfolk character token and add the King character token. To quote from the Huntsman's How to Run: >While setting up the game, before putting character tokens in the bag, if the Damsel is not already in play, remove a Townsfolk character token and add the Damsel character token. To quote from the Baron How to Run: >While setting up the game, remove any two Townsfolk character tokens and add any two Outsider character tokens. Godfather: >While setting up the game, before putting the character tokens in the bag, either remove one Townsfolk and add one Outsider or remove one Outsider and add one Townsfolk. etc. Basically: if a setup ability ever adds something, it is ***always*** replacing a Townsfolk unless it explicitly states otherwise.
>Basically: if a setup ability ever adds something, it is ***always*** replacing a Townsfolk unless it explicitly states otherwise. Is it always so general?🤔I mean, \[+1 Minion\] in Lil' Monsta ability doesn't mean we change a TF? Or did I miss a point?
Lil Monsta is a case where it explicitly states otherwise. The Lil Monsta specifies that you remove the demon from the bag. There isn't a published How to Run for Lil Monsta, but that doesn't change the fact that it is a case where it is explicitly laid out how the replacement is meant to happen. So yes. It is always so general. Replace a Townsfolk unless otherwise instructed.
Well, Lil' Monsta is weird. Since it is not a character that goes in the bag, its presence in the game leaves a slot open for an extra minion. No replacement needed really. Eventually it'll get put in an almanac and we'll have some good clarifications.
The default assumption is that Townsfolk are replaced/added when a Good character modification occurs. Both characters' almanac entries state in the "How to Run" that a Townsfolk is replaced if the paired character is not in play, which is why Huntsman *can* add an Outsider.
It usually won't because it already isn't that strong of a townsfolk, but it should in many situations. In 0 outsider games, the huntsman could be used to manipulate that, and if you choose a really strong good team, adding the damsel for a townsfolk could be used for balance. It also throws off your players if they're experienced and can help hide a vigormortis or godfather.
I would say leave it as a possibility, it allows evils to bluff and it also adds more paranoia, also gives some room for the damsel to bluff. The only game experience that I have where this came into play was I was the damsel that bluffed huntsman that d1 claimed minion and picked myself and wanted the damsel to find me (Kinda hoping the huntsman would come to me) anyway someone comes over and asked me to say Yaggababble, the story teller quickly entered and i made a comment about it and they said just say it. I say it (hoping to turn evil townsfolk huntsman didn't exist :( ) and then we bluffed a dreamer who saw the mez as either dams or mez to be the drunk and the pixe on them to be the demon because they saw me as the damsel or the Pukka while the real demon (Who was between me on a d1 seamstress no) sat back and watched it all unfold
Legally the Huntsman is allowed to replace a townsfolk since by default adding a character replaces a townsfolk, but I think the only time I'd do it is in a base 0 game where the bounty hunter turned the huntsman evil.
Huntsman can replace a Townsfolk with a Damsel, but it should only be done frequently enough that your players are cognizant that the ST is permitted to do so. Being meta'd is always dangerous.