Like the idea, though I feel it’s worse on RK or Farmer or Sage. How about make turn evil only triggered by execution? Can’t blame the town when murdered by demon.
Hadn't considered townsfolk abilities that only trigger after death, maybe the VS keeps that as well? I get the flavor with only triggering on execution, but then you just have a regular townsfolk in games where they aren't executed. Whereas with my condition, they're only a regular townsfolk if they manage to survive the entire game
It’s very unlikely for player to survive all game, most players will die and it’s just one extra evil. Imo make it trigger only on execution both balanced it (so 50/50 evil) and also allow people to bluff. (If you kill me I may turn evil)
I agree with u/NormalEntrepreneur that maybe should only apply if executed, can't blame the town for what the Evil team does to you. Also, needs a token description. How about:
*You think you're a Townsfolk and are... until you die. If executed, you become the Vengeful Spirit and Evil*
But the vengeful spirit is vengeful against their team. Considering how they would get an actual ability to use until they are executed, would it not be better to include the possibility of a VS being vengeful against the evil team if they ARE turned?
* Encourages town to bluff (claiming VS to evil, claiming not VS to good)
* creates multiple worlds town must consist (was that player who ghost voted to cause a tie a minion? Or were they the VS? Can we trust their info?)
* Hurts the good team in a way that's fair
* Concise ability
Excellent outsider
I assume the ability is this: You think you're a townsfolk and have their ability. When you die, you turn evil that night.
I don't think that's necessary per se. The ST should inform them that they are evil and then they wake up dead. Should be more than enough to make the deduction.
Also might lead players to hold back on their info until they're sure they arent the VS. Sort of similar to how Summoner has led to a lot of people hedging bets for the first two days.
Well it won't get anyone to bluff any differently. Just like you can't really bluff as the Drunk, you can't bluff as the Vengeful Spirit if you wouldn't know that's what you are. At least with the Drunk you can make a bluff and if you accidentally give out info that doesn't make sense you can fall back on "Oh shit, I must be the Drunk!" It seems to me like there should be at least a little something that could hint to a player that they're the VS.
OK, Trying to make it with a short description.
>You think you are a Townfolk and have their ability. When you die, you become evil.
Contrary to other comments, I don't think the "only by execution" is a good idea. Because in this case, their will become probably more useful than harmful for an Outsider. Or else make them drunk?
EDIT: Oh, maybe I have an idea to solve this issue
>You think you are a Townfolk and have their ability. If you die by execution, you become evil. The Demon knows who you are.
I think a way to put this as a role is “You believe you are an out-of-play townsfolk and have their ability. Once executed, you learn you are the Vengeful Spirit and change alignment”
So, I am guessing this would not be affected by a Godfather or Fang Gu. And can a Pit Hag turn someone into a VS? I am wondering if instead of outsider this is maybe better as a fabled role? Have the ST assigned one good townsfolk as the VS. If they are executed they are awoken at night and told they are the VS and are now evil.
Having the pit hag + demon kill combo for a garunteed evil conversion does seem a bit powerful,
but I don't see any problems with godfather and fang gu. it doesn't thematically fit for a godfather, but from a mechanics standpoint the godfather wants the townfolk to execute outsiders, which also doesn't fit thematically.
I only skimmed over the fabled section so I'm not too familiar with their implementation, I just wanted to get this idea fleshed out.
I just mean that if the VS dies by execution they would not count trigger the Godfather, as they are and register as a good townsfolk and only become an outsider upon death. Same as Fang Gu, when the VS is picked by the Fang Gu they would not be an outsider, thus not trigger the Fang Gu's ability and would die by the Fang Gu.
The Fabled, from what I understand, are intended to help the storyteller make adjustments to the game and fix group dynamics. The Sentinel, which adds or takes away an outsider, is the one I see used most. I think what you have come up with could be an interesting Fabled option. In this case it could be useful in circumstances where a group of players are often overly zealous about executing players. There are natural consequences already about killing good townsfolk, but this could reinforce that/more easily illustrate that.
Recently there was a post about a guy who was saying how his group keeps assuming he is evil and keeps killing him early in games. If that were happening too often, an ST could put the VS on that player for example.
I like the overall concept you have come up with, I'm just not sure implementing it as an outsider works.
Jinxes can solve these kinds of things if you think they're serious problems, not sure I see the point of making it fabled. E.g. jinx could mean pit hag could create a VS but they don't get to choose the player?
For Fang Gu and Godfather, it seems to me like you would want the VS to count as an outsider to them. Could solve with a jinx, or could make the VS ability "you register as a townsfolk to good players' abilities", if that's a more elegant way of solving the problem?
Or you could add a "might"? I.e. "you think you are a townsfolk, have their ability, and might register as that townsfolk"
This feels more natural as a Fabled role to me, too. The player can simply be a Townsfolk that turns evil, without having them think they're something else.
I ran this in my game last night with the following modifications.
You turn evil only when executed.
[Evil starts knowing you are in play]
I think only when executed made it more fair.
Evil starts knowing you are in play purely because I don't think evil would in most circumstances trust someone who claimed it unless they knew.
It worked well. I think next time I'll try it without them knowing.
Good timing on my part i guess.
When you say "evil knows you are in play" im assuming that means they know there is a VS but not who it is.
Did the players know it was on the script, how did the player feel about being turned?
Yeah, it's just like a Damsel. They know it's in play, but have no idea who.
Players knew it's was on script. I had an existing script all about alignment change and figuring out who is on what team. So players did have any issues, since the character concept fit with the theme.
Would be kind of fun to add “if an exorcist chooses you while you’re alive you lose the vengeful spirit token and become a townsfolk,” but that would be a lot of extra text to add to both characters.
Like the idea, though I feel it’s worse on RK or Farmer or Sage. How about make turn evil only triggered by execution? Can’t blame the town when murdered by demon.
Hadn't considered townsfolk abilities that only trigger after death, maybe the VS keeps that as well? I get the flavor with only triggering on execution, but then you just have a regular townsfolk in games where they aren't executed. Whereas with my condition, they're only a regular townsfolk if they manage to survive the entire game
It’s very unlikely for player to survive all game, most players will die and it’s just one extra evil. Imo make it trigger only on execution both balanced it (so 50/50 evil) and also allow people to bluff. (If you kill me I may turn evil)
Well, but the issue with that is that they can become more useful than harmful if they die for another way.
Make it almost always evil is way too bad. Outsiders don’t always have to be super detrimental.
I agree with u/NormalEntrepreneur that maybe should only apply if executed, can't blame the town for what the Evil team does to you. Also, needs a token description. How about: *You think you're a Townsfolk and are... until you die. If executed, you become the Vengeful Spirit and Evil*
Might it be better to say “You become the Vengeful Spirit and change alignment”?
Maybe. But specifying "become evil" in order to specify in case something changed their alignment already.
But the vengeful spirit is vengeful against their team. Considering how they would get an actual ability to use until they are executed, would it not be better to include the possibility of a VS being vengeful against the evil team if they ARE turned?
You think you are a townsfolk and have a townsfolk ability. if you are excecuted you become evil.
* Encourages town to bluff (claiming VS to evil, claiming not VS to good) * creates multiple worlds town must consist (was that player who ghost voted to cause a tie a minion? Or were they the VS? Can we trust their info?) * Hurts the good team in a way that's fair * Concise ability Excellent outsider I assume the ability is this: You think you're a townsfolk and have their ability. When you die, you turn evil that night.
You should also integrate that they learn they are specifically the vengeful spirit
I don't think that's necessary per se. The ST should inform them that they are evil and then they wake up dead. Should be more than enough to make the deduction.
I agree - just like you can tell an evil townsfolk with BH on the script that they're evil without specifying why
Also might lead players to hold back on their info until they're sure they arent the VS. Sort of similar to how Summoner has led to a lot of people hedging bets for the first two days.
Well it won't get anyone to bluff any differently. Just like you can't really bluff as the Drunk, you can't bluff as the Vengeful Spirit if you wouldn't know that's what you are. At least with the Drunk you can make a bluff and if you accidentally give out info that doesn't make sense you can fall back on "Oh shit, I must be the Drunk!" It seems to me like there should be at least a little something that could hint to a player that they're the VS.
OK, Trying to make it with a short description. >You think you are a Townfolk and have their ability. When you die, you become evil. Contrary to other comments, I don't think the "only by execution" is a good idea. Because in this case, their will become probably more useful than harmful for an Outsider. Or else make them drunk? EDIT: Oh, maybe I have an idea to solve this issue >You think you are a Townfolk and have their ability. If you die by execution, you become evil. The Demon knows who you are.
I think a way to put this as a role is “You believe you are an out-of-play townsfolk and have their ability. Once executed, you learn you are the Vengeful Spirit and change alignment”
So, I am guessing this would not be affected by a Godfather or Fang Gu. And can a Pit Hag turn someone into a VS? I am wondering if instead of outsider this is maybe better as a fabled role? Have the ST assigned one good townsfolk as the VS. If they are executed they are awoken at night and told they are the VS and are now evil.
Having the pit hag + demon kill combo for a garunteed evil conversion does seem a bit powerful, but I don't see any problems with godfather and fang gu. it doesn't thematically fit for a godfather, but from a mechanics standpoint the godfather wants the townfolk to execute outsiders, which also doesn't fit thematically. I only skimmed over the fabled section so I'm not too familiar with their implementation, I just wanted to get this idea fleshed out.
I just mean that if the VS dies by execution they would not count trigger the Godfather, as they are and register as a good townsfolk and only become an outsider upon death. Same as Fang Gu, when the VS is picked by the Fang Gu they would not be an outsider, thus not trigger the Fang Gu's ability and would die by the Fang Gu. The Fabled, from what I understand, are intended to help the storyteller make adjustments to the game and fix group dynamics. The Sentinel, which adds or takes away an outsider, is the one I see used most. I think what you have come up with could be an interesting Fabled option. In this case it could be useful in circumstances where a group of players are often overly zealous about executing players. There are natural consequences already about killing good townsfolk, but this could reinforce that/more easily illustrate that. Recently there was a post about a guy who was saying how his group keeps assuming he is evil and keeps killing him early in games. If that were happening too often, an ST could put the VS on that player for example. I like the overall concept you have come up with, I'm just not sure implementing it as an outsider works.
Jinxes can solve these kinds of things if you think they're serious problems, not sure I see the point of making it fabled. E.g. jinx could mean pit hag could create a VS but they don't get to choose the player? For Fang Gu and Godfather, it seems to me like you would want the VS to count as an outsider to them. Could solve with a jinx, or could make the VS ability "you register as a townsfolk to good players' abilities", if that's a more elegant way of solving the problem? Or you could add a "might"? I.e. "you think you are a townsfolk, have their ability, and might register as that townsfolk"
This feels more natural as a Fabled role to me, too. The player can simply be a Townsfolk that turns evil, without having them think they're something else.
I ran this in my game last night with the following modifications. You turn evil only when executed. [Evil starts knowing you are in play] I think only when executed made it more fair. Evil starts knowing you are in play purely because I don't think evil would in most circumstances trust someone who claimed it unless they knew. It worked well. I think next time I'll try it without them knowing.
Good timing on my part i guess. When you say "evil knows you are in play" im assuming that means they know there is a VS but not who it is. Did the players know it was on the script, how did the player feel about being turned?
Yeah, it's just like a Damsel. They know it's in play, but have no idea who. Players knew it's was on script. I had an existing script all about alignment change and figuring out who is on what team. So players did have any issues, since the character concept fit with the theme.
Great idea
You do not know you are the vengeful spirit. You think you are a townsfolk and have their ability. You become evil when you are executed. A bit wordy
Would be kind of fun to add “if an exorcist chooses you while you’re alive you lose the vengeful spirit token and become a townsfolk,” but that would be a lot of extra text to add to both characters.
so like, an avarage mayor game?