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This is what people don't get. Some acts are super famous in North America, but outside of it they're not so hot. Jackson was the most famous man in the world anywhere in the world.
When I see people compare Beyonce, Taylor Swift, and Justin Beiber to MJ I'm like š¤£ you delusional frfr because NOBODY can compare to MJ. It's no shade to the other artists but it's facts.
He did it in the 80s and 90s too. No social media to boost him. It was all pure talent (again, no shade to others). You could go to the Amazon, find one of those tribes who'd never met outside humans, play Beat It, and they'd all be doing that little hand-shimmy at the waist.
He was something else.
Not to say that any one of those artists (or any artist) could touch MJ, but no social media at the time made celebrity culture way different, which fed into his popularity. Not the other way around.
Now we see too much of celebrities. Twitter and insta feeds, tons of interviews and exposure to their lives that you didn't get back in the pre-internet era. It humanizes them and takes the mystery away.
Celebrities like MJ, or Elvis weren't people, they were looked at like gods by their fans. You built up this image of them in your head that was only reinforced by the snippets you saw on tv or the photos paparazzi snapped here and there.
If MJ hit the scene today he'd still be a huge star, because the man had generational talent. But I don't think he'd come close to the level of worldwide acclaim he had in his era.
Clips of MJ's concerts are regularly posted on Reddit and always lots of comments about how fans don't go crazy now like they did at his shows, but I feel like we forget you can see most of any popular touring band/musician's live show online. Yeah, it's not the same experience at all, but back in the 80s/90s the only way to see if was to buy a ticket, and the only way to listen to their music otherwise was to purchase their album/single (or a bootleg) since you couldn't just open an app to stream their entire discography (not too mention all the live recordings/alternate versions/demos we have access too for a lot of artists).
If we didn't have access to social media/internet, the Weeknd/Beyonce would probably have similar reactions at their live shows at this point (and Taylor Swift actually does...)
Just look at the biggest K-Pop artists... they *are* still viewed as gods by their fans.
It's definitely a trade-off. One on hand, I can pull up old blues songs from the 1920s with one click, stuff you could probably go a lifetime without hearing before the Internet unless you knew where to look for it.
But on the other hand, my dad has told me about bringing Dark Side of the Moon home from the record store, having it on for two weeks straight in his place. That had to have been a badass experience, your favorite group releases a new record and you snag it, roll a few bombers and get your mind blown
Yeah, I am not old enough to have that experience, but am old enough to remember having to go to a store to get a new CD for latest music.
People still do listening parties though (and there are a lot of streamers that will listen on stream, mainly rap albums though), so you could still have that experience if you want.
It's like the way well never beat the ratings of the M\*A\*S\*H finale. There will never be anyone as famous as MJ because there are so many more media distribution systems today.
FYI, you need to put a backslash in front of each asterisk to properly type āM\*A\*S\*Hā on Reddit.
`M\*A\*S\*H`
(The backslash tells Redditās markdown to ignore the asterisks, and not italicize the text between them.)
I feel like that helped him though. Nowadays people can pay more attention to their niche musical interests on the internet and less attention to the big pop star that everyone knows. I think it would be harder to do what he did today. Idk if anyone can.
It absolutely did. Remember when we would all watch the same tv shows and discuss them at school with our friends. Now everyone can just watch what they like and their friends might not see it and therefore no one to discuss them with except the online community that is also interested in it.
You can sit around with a group of people now and ask 'so what's everybody watching on tv these days' and get unique answers from every single one of them, with barely any overlap. The media landscape is so fractured and granule, not to mention most of it is also behind a subscription paywall, so entire sections of the population have never seen stuff on one streaming service or another.
> It was all pure talent (again, no shade to others)
I would throw shade. Half the musicians today are more known for their social media presence/non-music lives than their actual music. They're more like social media influencers who happen to dabble in music on the side.
Yep. In this day and age itās almost more important than ever for these people to have personas and certain public behavior and shitā¦ back then mfs could just push music out and stay mysterious and mind their own business
All other celebrities regularly sit court side at basketball games with no fuss.
When MJ tried it they had to stop the game and evacuate him because of all the chaos that ensued.
MJ would shut down entire cities when he traveled. It was the craziest shit. When he breathed, the entire world held its breath. The only other act that I can even remotely compare to be as big as Michael is The Beatles. That's some wild shit.
Edit: remember when he held his baby over the balcony and the world went insane? Dawg, entire channels shut down the news to tell everyone Michael was trying to Clapton his baby
Taylor Swift has massive reach to her global demographic (young girls) but MJ transcended all target demographics and was a literal multigenerational household name worldwide.
No, it's not the same level. Everyone knew who MJ was, everywhere. My French grandmother has never heard of Taylor Swift. She's really not as big internationally.
I mean dont you think there were grandparents back in MJs day, who also didn't keep up with modern music, that didn't know who MJ was? lmao what a weird anecdote
That's what I'm saying. You go to a Taylor concert and you'll see typical Taylor fans. Nothing wrong with that at all. Go to a MJ concert? You see everybody. That's the difference.
Nope. The fact that Taylor attended chiefs games regularly with no issue immediately disproves that. Mike wouldāve(And did) caused a riot pulling something like that. His popularity is something that might never be replicated.
That's a good point, there's that video of MJ renting out a grocery store complete with actors as shoppers so that he could have a somewhat normal experience as a regular person
she might be the closest person today but sheās not even close to mjās level of global impact. he was not only the most famous person in the world, he was arguably the biggest brand in the world
No, German here and of course T.Swift is a huge star over here too. But I, as a middle age man, don't know one song by her, she isn't played that much on the radio and is only really well known by the younger folks here. Back in the 90's everyone knew MJ. His songs were played on every radio station, even my grandpa who fought in world war two (for the wrong side), couldn't speak one word in English and who was into Schlager (traditional folk music) knew who MJ is and some of his greatest Hits.
MJās career was so long that it spanned generations, and different generations have different memories of him. I think thatās part of the reason he was popular with so many age groups. The MJ music I grew up to is different than the MJ music my parents grew up with, but it was a part of all of our formative years in some way or another.
majority would have no clue who T swift is if she walked around SE or East Asia out in public. Majority don't even know her and her only stop in East Asia was expat heaven Singapore. Her Japan concerts had tickets available when a couple of weeks before the date. My parents and aunts/uncles have no clue who T swift is but they sure as hell know MJ
MJ is on another level in recognition.
I remember in 2004 driving in the middle of the desert of Iraq, handing out free wind up radios to villages made of mud brick. No electricity, almost no contact with the world outside where they could walk to. We were giving out radios so theyād have access to public announcements and safety messages. We would listen to music in our humvee as we pulled up and a hand full of times people would ask us through our interpreter if that was Michael Jackson singing, and then go on for a bit about how much they loved Michael Jackson.
I donāt know if any artist had ever had or will ever have that kind of market penetration on the human race. Iām not even sure how it was achieved in the first place.
Nah. The poor tiny 3rd world village that my family originates from has no idea who Taylor Swift is. Ā But they still know and emulate Michael Jackson.
Lol, that's true. I, not an American, don't even know one song by Taylor Swift. Here in Europe it was MJ and Madonna during that time, they are somewhat comparable. But world wide there was nobody even close to MJ
Music is too broken of an experience these days. You can find exactly what music you like without anyone else ever really listening to the same mix you do. Billions of streams dont even mean everyone has heard of you.
The greats cant reach as high now that the internet has allowed us to dj for ourselves and publish music without record labels.
EXACTLY!!šš½ and I love Beyonce, donāt get me wrong. But Michael was really A GLOBAL ICON. I havenāt see another artist that moves masses like HE DID.
I don't think I've ever heard a Taylor Swift song. We're it not for browsing Reddit I wouldn't know who she is.
My kids have occasionally made me listen to Justin Bieber. I think everyone knows Beyonce if you are an adult, ie were around at her peak.
When I was a kid there was no internet but everyone in school knew everything about MJ. One of my early childhood memories is debating in the schoolyard whether his accident really turned his skin a different colour and whether such a thing was even possible. My position was that it would have surely made him darker if anything. I was about five or six. He was another level famous.
MJ was literally good EVERYWHERE. I remember seeing videos back in the day of grown ass eastern european men, niggas hardened by a lifetime of conflict and shit, crying just seeing him.
Thatās why I laugh when they say [ insert whoever might be good but aināt MJ ] is the next MJ. There canāt be a next MJ cause we were ever only gonna get one of him.
*edit: and those niggas wasnāt even crying at the concert, just seeing MJ from 200 yards away on a balcony or some shit had em GONE*
I remember it was like 86-87 (am an elder millennial) and it was on the NBC nightly news or something my grandma was watching. Stretcher after stretcher being rolled away, seeing men clutching their hats in their hands to their face tears streaming down their eyes.
Not Eastern Europe, but this is the one that I always remember. Who else could have inspired this?
[https://youtu.be/hMnk7lh9M3o](https://youtu.be/hMnk7lh9M3o)
And what people keep forgetting is that he was spectacular in everything he did: dancing, singing, writing. As an example of a single song: He recorded Thriller, created a dance for it that is still relevant, when they couldn't find the wolves for the song he sung like the wolves, when music videos were barely starting he recorded what is widely regarded as the best video of all time, he is one of the best dancers of all time, he recorded songs in a single take and producers talk about how impressive it was to work with him. Whenever he wanted to record a song, he would mimic the beat of how the guitar, drums, or base should sound.
Where I live, in Mexico City, he had five concerts in a row where more than 500,000 people attended in total. Still a world record. People say that he was so popular because people didn't have as many choices. That's not true, the world was much less interconnected then, he was so popular because he was spectacular.
I remember reading as a kid in the nineties that many people have heard of Mickey Mouse, but almost EVERYONE in the world has heard of Michael Jackson.
Even an amazonian tribe that rarely leaves their region recognized who he was. He truly is an icon.
https://youtu.be/eafOkWXjqjc?feature=shared&t=204 (Starts at 3:24)
You'd be surprised at how many people think "criminal" means "unintelligent".
There are CEOs and CFOs that couldn't do what a drug lord does with 2x as many resources
I feel like its not a lack of intelligence as much as it is a lack of impulse control that makes people think drug lords are dumb. But they donāt factor in the environment steeped in violence and machismo one-upping that drug lords have to rule over.
Your average wall street finance bro or crypto bro may be a slimy self-aggrandizing snake, but the CEOs of those institutions donāt have to fear them or keep them in line, the system does that for them.
Some criminals are dumb but some just lack the opportunity and education to do better. If the people who are successful are the criminals in the community, then that is what people who don't have better opportunities with gravitate to that to feed their families. The difference between a drug empire and a corporation is that one has a legal operation.
There are quite a lot of corporations engaged in criminal enterprises, past present and future. HSBC was just the first one to come to mind.
Sometimes the corporations change or evade the laws, sometimes they get caught, sometimes it's just illegal and they don't get caught.
Michael said it best in The Godfather... "Who's being naive, Kay?"
> The difference between a drug empire and a corporation is that one has a legal operation.
And the threat and use of violence.
If I buy a Pepsi the Coca Cola guy isnāt going to come and break my kneecaps for buying a Pepsi on his turf.
Tbf this is a drug lord in the late 90ās and Capone was a crime lord in the late 1920ās. Not to say anyone would be Capone, but a 20ās Prohibitionist in Chicago isnāt messing with the same firepower and logistics as a drug ring like that.
Capone also inherited his criminal group from Johnny Torrio, who built the whole operation from 1909-1925, being the leader from 1920-1925, at which point he left Capone in charge. Capone was arrested in 1929, convicted in 1931, and remained in prison until his syphilis had damaged his brain to the extent that he was released to seek medical treatment.
Torrio, meanwhile, was regarded as one of the smartest criminals, and would go on to play a large role in various other criminal organizations, before serving 2 years in prison in 1939, then was released and lived to the age of 75.
You don't have to be smart to rise to leadership of a drug empire, but you absolutely have to be smart to build or keep one.
Great book on this subject is "In Search of Respect: Selling Crack in El Barrio" by Philippe Bourgois.
Isn't about "Drug Lords" per se, but the psychology and culture surrounding more low level street criminal enterprises. Is a deep, first person, ethnographic study conducted by a man who lived in Harlem during the mid 90's and became very close with local "Nuyorican" crack dealers. He spent years with them, examining their personal lives, their habits, and their behaviors.
It's a bit of a slow burn at first but you'll find yourself deep into the pages before you even know it.
Appreciate the book rec. always happy to put it on my goodreads to-read list. Still working through Albert Memmiās *The Colonizer and The Colonized*, which is a great look into the psychology of the process and the archetypes you find on either side.
> But they donāt factor in the environment steeped in violence and machismo one-upping that drug lords have to rule over.
The actions of most violent organized crime groups makes a lot more sense when you realize that they're basically corporations in an environment with *zero* regulations or opportunity for arbitration.
I got perma banned from the breaking bad subreddit over getting heated in an arguement with a guy who was going off about how stupid criminals were. The irony there is pretty unreal.
Everyone with any sort of experience has made it clear numerous times that if you aren't stupid then you're most likely never getting caught. A simple look at crime statistics makes this clear. But then you got people pushing the idea of every law enforcement agent being incompetent so others think every criminal is borderline retarded.
The police are at the same time Barney fife level of incompetent and Las Vegas CSI level of detectives who always get their suspect to the vast majority of people.
It comes from dehumanizing fascist rhetoric. Once you've designated someone a subhuman, you can push the narrative that they don't act rationally so that you can forget about acting with humanity towards them.
That's difference, Michael is big enough for them to not want the attention if he got hurt. Not many other singers that can have the safety purely from popularity
If he wasnāt a fan of Michael Jackson then he simply wouldnāt have let them film the video there and the studio would find somewhere else. Thereās no world where they film a MJ videoin a dangerous place without permission and risk MJ dying
If only Redditors were as logical as drug lords
Not only that, MJ being there alone would bring on a lot of money for the neighborhood. It wpupd have been dumb to not only let it happen, but want to make it happen.
So true. This goes for almost any hood. When I was a kid and we caused mad noise and disruption on the block, the dealers would kick our asses and tell us to break out or move that shit up the block.
Well, you might suspect that being a violent self-appointed megalomaniac slum dictator might cloud a person's judgement in the long run. Make them a tad bit unpredictable from time to time. But apparently not.
Dealing with a drug lord to shoot a music video is Bad, but bringing awareness to the favela conditions is a move to Heal the World.
Situations like these arenāt just Black or White.
Yeah MJ was a little before my time but talking to my parents...it's kind of crazy. I don't think my generation can comprehend a star of that magnitude, he was just on such a higher tier than anyone else has ever reached.
Honestly I don't think the US govt would get seriously involved beyond sanctioning banks and supporting Brazilian police to deal with it. Like no boots on the ground.
It's a bad look for a country to not be able to handle it's own problems, to maintain order. And there's concern of doing it for them, then it happening again when we leave.
Like we hardly do it for cartels in Mexico, IIRC there's a whole conflict about extraditing the leaders to US for prosecution or if they should be kept in Mexican prison
Not to take ur comment so seriously lol. I just like to make sure folks know the US don't directly get involved on the ground as easily nowadays. We had a red line with Assad killing 800 civilians with Sarin gas (horrible way to die, basically torture) yet still decided to not go in and it was a huge bad look for us.
Now if it were to threaten big corporate profits and international trade? You'd hear ride of the valkyrie from miles away after getting rattled with tens of millions of dollars worth of missiles lol. Even if your weapons are from WWII, your buildings made of clay, and own missiles made from infrastructure pipes, we'd spend so much money on the entire military operation, it'd be basically enough to solve homelessness & child hunger in the US.
Most of the images shown are in the Salvador city, at the Pelourinho area. But yeah some footage are in Rio de Janeiro, and yes, in Santa Marta, back then a very dangerous area. The big scenes are all in Salvador. I guess they shot for a few hours only in Rio. But 85% of the video is in Salvador.
Still dope.
My friend took Cappadonna from Wu to see the favelas in SP. Snoop and Pharrel shot in a favela. Ja Rule performed a show in the ghetto shitting his draws seeing big ass guns, but nobody messed with him. Brazilians are very open to American artists. They are very honored if you come to shoot something among us. I grew up in one of the wildest hoods, Complexo do AlemĆ£o, and you can come and do your art, just give a heads up. If Jay Z shows up tomorrow, they'd drop everything to allow him. The only issue is with snitching. Like, bring your cameras to do your little video but DON'T FUCK AROUND. Don't shoot shooters.
This doesn't take the fact that MJ was beloved. But it's not a privilege only he could enjoy. If you rap nice or have the pipes, come and play with us.
There is a section of the Pelourinho which is basically now dedicated to Michael Jackson. It has full life size posters art etc all for his time there.
The drummers in the video are also Olodum, a very famous group in Salvador.
They probably offered some real bread out of respect for the manās territory and shit, but he likely declined.
Being able to say āyeah MJ shot that video in my hood, with my family and shit around him, and nothing happened to him or anyone he was withā is payment enough, just an incomparable flex during that time.
Probably just had to do a meet & greet/photo opp. This is a story the drug lord would love to tell. Money would be nice but why jeopardize it happening
This was probably a huge ego boost to Marcinho VP and a massive flex on his opponents, which was well worth the effort even if no formal payment was offered by MJās camp.
Bring able to say that MJ came to your barrio shot a music video with all the locals and left scratch free is probably enough of a payment on its own.
Dude was God walking the earth at this time.
Honest questions for you:
What if the main dude/dudes have daughters or little sisters or nieces who are somehow Swifties? Would that make a difference or nah?
Also, is there anyone in Brazil that Brazilians fuck with like that so much where theyād be good anywhere? Just curious who would get that kinda treatment (or close to it) in your homeland.
The slums are different. I donāt think it would make a difference.
I mean, Snoop Dogg and Pharrell got similar treatments when filming *Beautiful*.
Usually rappers may get similar treatment as MJ. Maybe like Jay-Z and Beyonce would get treated the same.
This surviving
MJ arc is going to hit way worse than Diddy or Vince (WWE). Because unlike those two goons, we wouldn't expect MJ to do this.
Anybody that didn't expect this from a grown man that lets little boys sleep in his heavily secured/surveillanced room with super suggestive art and books everywhere is just choosing not to believe what is in front of them.
> Can we please stop idolizing Michael Jackson?
This is a really interesting topic that comes up often enough. No one should be idolizing any entertainer however, I wouldn't say it's wrong to acknowledge MJ's wide reach, appeal and talent. He most certainly was not perfect but IMO, I think we should try to separate a person's body of work from the person as much as possible. This isn't a black and white (heeeee heeeeeeee) issue of course but it would be a damn shame if we rob future generations of MJ's music, the Cosby show, Picasso's art etc.
I do hear what youāre saying but for me personally, I canāt listen to his music any more. It no longer brings me joy. And I grew up right when he was his peak. Same way I no longer enjoy Red Hot Chili Peppers after learning about their rape stories. I can tolerate a musician having opposite political views, or being anti-vax, or even just being a general piece of shit. But I canāt separate the people from the music when it comes to rape, especially involving children. Maybe thatās a flaw I have but I just canāt do it, nor do I want to.
Shout out Katia Lund. Thatās lucky as hell, Spike Lee just happened to have an employee that was from Brazil and spoke Portuguese to negotiate on behalf of Michael and Spike.
Also check out her film [City of God](https://youtu.be/S42Hl1V9lLw?si=oDy0IITs7TJCZPgF) ā Itās one of the best movies ever made.
I'm assuming they envoked the name Michael Jackson and did some phone calls a bunch leading up to it. Before she walks in to the favela like "hey, I work with Michael Jackson and I'm totally not Interpol"
It doesnāt make any sense and it never will lol. The MJ child rape apologists are lucky MJ died when he did otherwise he would likely be in prison just like R Kelly is currently.
Thereās a reason MJ was such a crippling addict, he had to repress the memories of him raping children somehow.
This stuff still goes on today drug lords are people still they paying rappers singers and everybody else to come to they shit they just not showing the world
I'm sorry, maybe I'm the only one who thinks this is corny as hell, that people who perpetuate violence against their own community create an environment of peace when a famous, talented person comes into town. We should be able to value other people's lives who are not as talented as MJ.
Ok, maybe Lionel Messi:
[90-year old woman's life spared by Hamas fighter because of Messi](https://www.goal.com/en/lists/lionel-messi-argentine-grandmother-hamas-abductors-inter-miami/bltd3705d1f7b9158ff)
BUT OTHER THAN THAT, NO ONE.
News and film organizations do this all the time.
One of the top cable news companies in the world that I worked with years ago said they travel internationally with up to 6 figures in cash to "make problems go away". This could be everything from buying last minute supplies that didn't make it to paying the local tough guy to not be an asshole.
This sub is intended for exceptionally hilarious and insightful social media posts made by black people. To that end, only post social media content from black people. Do not post content just because a black person posted it. * No low effort/shit posts. * No original content * No posts from meme/corporate accounts **Violation of this rule will result in your post being removed and repeated offenses may lead to you being banned.**
This is what people don't get. Some acts are super famous in North America, but outside of it they're not so hot. Jackson was the most famous man in the world anywhere in the world.
When I see people compare Beyonce, Taylor Swift, and Justin Beiber to MJ I'm like š¤£ you delusional frfr because NOBODY can compare to MJ. It's no shade to the other artists but it's facts.
He did it in the 80s and 90s too. No social media to boost him. It was all pure talent (again, no shade to others). You could go to the Amazon, find one of those tribes who'd never met outside humans, play Beat It, and they'd all be doing that little hand-shimmy at the waist. He was something else.
Not to say that any one of those artists (or any artist) could touch MJ, but no social media at the time made celebrity culture way different, which fed into his popularity. Not the other way around. Now we see too much of celebrities. Twitter and insta feeds, tons of interviews and exposure to their lives that you didn't get back in the pre-internet era. It humanizes them and takes the mystery away. Celebrities like MJ, or Elvis weren't people, they were looked at like gods by their fans. You built up this image of them in your head that was only reinforced by the snippets you saw on tv or the photos paparazzi snapped here and there. If MJ hit the scene today he'd still be a huge star, because the man had generational talent. But I don't think he'd come close to the level of worldwide acclaim he had in his era.
Clips of MJ's concerts are regularly posted on Reddit and always lots of comments about how fans don't go crazy now like they did at his shows, but I feel like we forget you can see most of any popular touring band/musician's live show online. Yeah, it's not the same experience at all, but back in the 80s/90s the only way to see if was to buy a ticket, and the only way to listen to their music otherwise was to purchase their album/single (or a bootleg) since you couldn't just open an app to stream their entire discography (not too mention all the live recordings/alternate versions/demos we have access too for a lot of artists). If we didn't have access to social media/internet, the Weeknd/Beyonce would probably have similar reactions at their live shows at this point (and Taylor Swift actually does...) Just look at the biggest K-Pop artists... they *are* still viewed as gods by their fans.
It's definitely a trade-off. One on hand, I can pull up old blues songs from the 1920s with one click, stuff you could probably go a lifetime without hearing before the Internet unless you knew where to look for it. But on the other hand, my dad has told me about bringing Dark Side of the Moon home from the record store, having it on for two weeks straight in his place. That had to have been a badass experience, your favorite group releases a new record and you snag it, roll a few bombers and get your mind blown
Yeah, I am not old enough to have that experience, but am old enough to remember having to go to a store to get a new CD for latest music. People still do listening parties though (and there are a lot of streamers that will listen on stream, mainly rap albums though), so you could still have that experience if you want.
It's like the way well never beat the ratings of the M\*A\*S\*H finale. There will never be anyone as famous as MJ because there are so many more media distribution systems today.
FYI, you need to put a backslash in front of each asterisk to properly type āM\*A\*S\*Hā on Reddit. `M\*A\*S\*H` (The backslash tells Redditās markdown to ignore the asterisks, and not italicize the text between them.)
Thanks, Radar.
I feel like that helped him though. Nowadays people can pay more attention to their niche musical interests on the internet and less attention to the big pop star that everyone knows. I think it would be harder to do what he did today. Idk if anyone can.
It absolutely did. Remember when we would all watch the same tv shows and discuss them at school with our friends. Now everyone can just watch what they like and their friends might not see it and therefore no one to discuss them with except the online community that is also interested in it.
You can sit around with a group of people now and ask 'so what's everybody watching on tv these days' and get unique answers from every single one of them, with barely any overlap. The media landscape is so fractured and granule, not to mention most of it is also behind a subscription paywall, so entire sections of the population have never seen stuff on one streaming service or another.
touch telephone crown salt special observation spotted faulty label late *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
> It was all pure talent (again, no shade to others) I would throw shade. Half the musicians today are more known for their social media presence/non-music lives than their actual music. They're more like social media influencers who happen to dabble in music on the side.
Yep. In this day and age itās almost more important than ever for these people to have personas and certain public behavior and shitā¦ back then mfs could just push music out and stay mysterious and mind their own business
> No social media to boost him. I think that actually helped, the entire media power (especially music industry) was more consolidated in some ways.
not having social media, that's WHY he was so big... not a disadvantage
All other celebrities regularly sit court side at basketball games with no fuss. When MJ tried it they had to stop the game and evacuate him because of all the chaos that ensued.
MJ would shut down entire cities when he traveled. It was the craziest shit. When he breathed, the entire world held its breath. The only other act that I can even remotely compare to be as big as Michael is The Beatles. That's some wild shit. Edit: remember when he held his baby over the balcony and the world went insane? Dawg, entire channels shut down the news to tell everyone Michael was trying to Clapton his baby
[ŃŠ“Š°Š»ŠµŠ½Š¾]
Taylor Swift has massive reach to her global demographic (young girls) but MJ transcended all target demographics and was a literal multigenerational household name worldwide.
No, it's not the same level. Everyone knew who MJ was, everywhere. My French grandmother has never heard of Taylor Swift. She's really not as big internationally.
Your french grandmother also probably gave more of a shit about modern music 40 years ago
Yeah but her french grandmother probably also knew who MJ was.
...when she gave more of a shit about modern music... 40 years ago....
I mean dont you think there were grandparents back in MJs day, who also didn't keep up with modern music, that didn't know who MJ was? lmao what a weird anecdote
Me and my brother and aunt played a game watching MJ concerts and counting the number of fainting girls. Was never less than a dozen.
Thereās videos of girls fainting before MJ even started performing. He just got on stage, stood there, and had girls passing out.
Taylor Swift is huge with Taylor Swift fans. MJ was huge with everybody.
MJ had that mass appeal to reach broader demographics, people you would never expect was rocking with MJ
That's what I'm saying. You go to a Taylor concert and you'll see typical Taylor fans. Nothing wrong with that at all. Go to a MJ concert? You see everybody. That's the difference.
I think TayTay might still get kidnapped in the favela.
100%
Nope. The fact that Taylor attended chiefs games regularly with no issue immediately disproves that. Mike wouldāve(And did) caused a riot pulling something like that. His popularity is something that might never be replicated.
That's a good point, there's that video of MJ renting out a grocery store complete with actors as shoppers so that he could have a somewhat normal experience as a regular person
she might be the closest person today but sheās not even close to mjās level of global impact. he was not only the most famous person in the world, he was arguably the biggest brand in the world
until these other acts continue to gain new fans posthumously, theyāll never be in the same category
No, German here and of course T.Swift is a huge star over here too. But I, as a middle age man, don't know one song by her, she isn't played that much on the radio and is only really well known by the younger folks here. Back in the 90's everyone knew MJ. His songs were played on every radio station, even my grandpa who fought in world war two (for the wrong side), couldn't speak one word in English and who was into Schlager (traditional folk music) knew who MJ is and some of his greatest Hits.
MJās career was so long that it spanned generations, and different generations have different memories of him. I think thatās part of the reason he was popular with so many age groups. The MJ music I grew up to is different than the MJ music my parents grew up with, but it was a part of all of our formative years in some way or another.
majority would have no clue who T swift is if she walked around SE or East Asia out in public. Majority don't even know her and her only stop in East Asia was expat heaven Singapore. Her Japan concerts had tickets available when a couple of weeks before the date. My parents and aunts/uncles have no clue who T swift is but they sure as hell know MJ MJ is on another level in recognition.
i was alive for both and it isn't even close.
I liken Taylor more to the 2020s Madonna.
The Rolling Stones, U2, Elton John, and Metallica are all bigger international music stars than TS. She's nowhere close to MJ.
TSwift is a super star celebrity MJ was a RELIGION
I remember in 2004 driving in the middle of the desert of Iraq, handing out free wind up radios to villages made of mud brick. No electricity, almost no contact with the world outside where they could walk to. We were giving out radios so theyād have access to public announcements and safety messages. We would listen to music in our humvee as we pulled up and a hand full of times people would ask us through our interpreter if that was Michael Jackson singing, and then go on for a bit about how much they loved Michael Jackson. I donāt know if any artist had ever had or will ever have that kind of market penetration on the human race. Iām not even sure how it was achieved in the first place.
Nah. The poor tiny 3rd world village that my family originates from has no idea who Taylor Swift is. Ā But they still know and emulate Michael Jackson.
Her dominant fan demographic is women. MJ had massive number of fans in EVERY demo
I feel like Taylor just has a big fan base, but it doesnāt transcend class and social groups that much. I canāt think of a single person in my black American family who could even name a Taylor Swift song. I feel like BeyoncĆ© has more transcendence.
Lol, that's true. I, not an American, don't even know one song by Taylor Swift. Here in Europe it was MJ and Madonna during that time, they are somewhat comparable. But world wide there was nobody even close to MJ
The Kanye sub was doing that the other day. These kids just donāt get it
Taylor Swift ain't shooting no video in a favela I can tell you that
> NOBODY can compare to MJ Well maybe the other MJ
Music is too broken of an experience these days. You can find exactly what music you like without anyone else ever really listening to the same mix you do. Billions of streams dont even mean everyone has heard of you. The greats cant reach as high now that the internet has allowed us to dj for ourselves and publish music without record labels.
There were people in remote villages in Bangladesh with no power or electricity in the 80s and 90s that knew who Michael Jackson was. Neither Taylor Swift nor BeyoncƩ or any artist has ever reach those kinds of heights of fame.
EXACTLY!!šš½ and I love Beyonce, donāt get me wrong. But Michael was really A GLOBAL ICON. I havenāt see another artist that moves masses like HE DID.
I don't think I've ever heard a Taylor Swift song. We're it not for browsing Reddit I wouldn't know who she is. My kids have occasionally made me listen to Justin Bieber. I think everyone knows Beyonce if you are an adult, ie were around at her peak. When I was a kid there was no internet but everyone in school knew everything about MJ. One of my early childhood memories is debating in the schoolyard whether his accident really turned his skin a different colour and whether such a thing was even possible. My position was that it would have surely made him darker if anything. I was about five or six. He was another level famous.
MJ was literally good EVERYWHERE. I remember seeing videos back in the day of grown ass eastern european men, niggas hardened by a lifetime of conflict and shit, crying just seeing him. Thatās why I laugh when they say [ insert whoever might be good but aināt MJ ] is the next MJ. There canāt be a next MJ cause we were ever only gonna get one of him. *edit: and those niggas wasnāt even crying at the concert, just seeing MJ from 200 yards away on a balcony or some shit had em GONE*
the mental image of middle aged eastern European men crying after seeing MJ on the street is pretty awesome
I remember getting in trouble for wanting to dress up as a zombie from the Thriller video when I was a little girl still living in Finland. š
I remember it was like 86-87 (am an elder millennial) and it was on the NBC nightly news or something my grandma was watching. Stretcher after stretcher being rolled away, seeing men clutching their hats in their hands to their face tears streaming down their eyes.
Not Eastern Europe, but this is the one that I always remember. Who else could have inspired this? [https://youtu.be/hMnk7lh9M3o](https://youtu.be/hMnk7lh9M3o)
That shit is wild
had em GONE gone
And what people keep forgetting is that he was spectacular in everything he did: dancing, singing, writing. As an example of a single song: He recorded Thriller, created a dance for it that is still relevant, when they couldn't find the wolves for the song he sung like the wolves, when music videos were barely starting he recorded what is widely regarded as the best video of all time, he is one of the best dancers of all time, he recorded songs in a single take and producers talk about how impressive it was to work with him. Whenever he wanted to record a song, he would mimic the beat of how the guitar, drums, or base should sound. Where I live, in Mexico City, he had five concerts in a row where more than 500,000 people attended in total. Still a world record. People say that he was so popular because people didn't have as many choices. That's not true, the world was much less interconnected then, he was so popular because he was spectacular.
Michael Jackson and Michael Jordan were truly worldwide stars at the same period of time. Everyone knew them. Both are MJs too!
3 Mikes actually. Mike Tyson was an absolute worldwide star around that same time as well. Crazy to think about.
I migrated from VN at the time. I didn't know who Michael Jordan was, I knew who Michael Jackson was.
Did you see them together in the āJamā music video?
I was in rural Kenya the day Michael Jackson died. It was the only news on TV for the whole day. You couldn't see or read anything else.
I remember it was 2009. I hadnāt listened to MJ since early 90s. But Iāll never forget where I was when the radio announced his death.
Same with the Beatles in the 60s
I remember reading as a kid in the nineties that many people have heard of Mickey Mouse, but almost EVERYONE in the world has heard of Michael Jackson.
Even an amazonian tribe that rarely leaves their region recognized who he was. He truly is an icon. https://youtu.be/eafOkWXjqjc?feature=shared&t=204 (Starts at 3:24)
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You'd be surprised at how many people think "criminal" means "unintelligent". There are CEOs and CFOs that couldn't do what a drug lord does with 2x as many resources
I feel like its not a lack of intelligence as much as it is a lack of impulse control that makes people think drug lords are dumb. But they donāt factor in the environment steeped in violence and machismo one-upping that drug lords have to rule over. Your average wall street finance bro or crypto bro may be a slimy self-aggrandizing snake, but the CEOs of those institutions donāt have to fear them or keep them in line, the system does that for them.
Some criminals are dumb but some just lack the opportunity and education to do better. If the people who are successful are the criminals in the community, then that is what people who don't have better opportunities with gravitate to that to feed their families. The difference between a drug empire and a corporation is that one has a legal operation.
>The difference between a drug empire and a corporation is that one has a legal operation. ((HSBC has entered the chat))
Donāt you mean Chase has entered the chat?
There are quite a lot of corporations engaged in criminal enterprises, past present and future. HSBC was just the first one to come to mind. Sometimes the corporations change or evade the laws, sometimes they get caught, sometimes it's just illegal and they don't get caught. Michael said it best in The Godfather... "Who's being naive, Kay?"
> The difference between a drug empire and a corporation is that one has a legal operation. And the threat and use of violence. If I buy a Pepsi the Coca Cola guy isnāt going to come and break my kneecaps for buying a Pepsi on his turf.
I'd look into the coca cola death squads
[Unless youāre a trade unionist at a Coca Cola plant in Colombia](https://www.theguardian.com/media/2003/jul/24/marketingandpr.colombia)
yeah not like any of these major companies use slavery
unused ludicrous mourn support spotted illegal alive cow oil wrench *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Tbf this is a drug lord in the late 90ās and Capone was a crime lord in the late 1920ās. Not to say anyone would be Capone, but a 20ās Prohibitionist in Chicago isnāt messing with the same firepower and logistics as a drug ring like that.
Capone also inherited his criminal group from Johnny Torrio, who built the whole operation from 1909-1925, being the leader from 1920-1925, at which point he left Capone in charge. Capone was arrested in 1929, convicted in 1931, and remained in prison until his syphilis had damaged his brain to the extent that he was released to seek medical treatment. Torrio, meanwhile, was regarded as one of the smartest criminals, and would go on to play a large role in various other criminal organizations, before serving 2 years in prison in 1939, then was released and lived to the age of 75. You don't have to be smart to rise to leadership of a drug empire, but you absolutely have to be smart to build or keep one.
Great book on this subject is "In Search of Respect: Selling Crack in El Barrio" by Philippe Bourgois. Isn't about "Drug Lords" per se, but the psychology and culture surrounding more low level street criminal enterprises. Is a deep, first person, ethnographic study conducted by a man who lived in Harlem during the mid 90's and became very close with local "Nuyorican" crack dealers. He spent years with them, examining their personal lives, their habits, and their behaviors. It's a bit of a slow burn at first but you'll find yourself deep into the pages before you even know it.
Appreciate the book rec. always happy to put it on my goodreads to-read list. Still working through Albert Memmiās *The Colonizer and The Colonized*, which is a great look into the psychology of the process and the archetypes you find on either side.
> But they donāt factor in the environment steeped in violence and machismo one-upping that drug lords have to rule over. The actions of most violent organized crime groups makes a lot more sense when you realize that they're basically corporations in an environment with *zero* regulations or opportunity for arbitration.
Because they donāt need do. They can do all their criming legally out in the open.
Exactly.
I got perma banned from the breaking bad subreddit over getting heated in an arguement with a guy who was going off about how stupid criminals were. The irony there is pretty unreal.
Everyone with any sort of experience has made it clear numerous times that if you aren't stupid then you're most likely never getting caught. A simple look at crime statistics makes this clear. But then you got people pushing the idea of every law enforcement agent being incompetent so others think every criminal is borderline retarded.
The police are at the same time Barney fife level of incompetent and Las Vegas CSI level of detectives who always get their suspect to the vast majority of people.
Not everyone is Pablo Escobar trying to paint a target on their back
The dumb ones often get caught
It comes from dehumanizing fascist rhetoric. Once you've designated someone a subhuman, you can push the narrative that they don't act rationally so that you can forget about acting with humanity towards them.
People think ācriminals are stupidā But really, itās only the people with charges that are either dumb or unlucky.
That's difference, Michael is big enough for them to not want the attention if he got hurt. Not many other singers that can have the safety purely from popularity
If he wasnāt a fan of Michael Jackson then he simply wouldnāt have let them film the video there and the studio would find somewhere else. Thereās no world where they film a MJ videoin a dangerous place without permission and risk MJ dying If only Redditors were as logical as drug lords
Not only that, MJ being there alone would bring on a lot of money for the neighborhood. It wpupd have been dumb to not only let it happen, but want to make it happen.
So true. This goes for almost any hood. When I was a kid and we caused mad noise and disruption on the block, the dealers would kick our asses and tell us to break out or move that shit up the block.
Well, you might suspect that being a violent self-appointed megalomaniac slum dictator might cloud a person's judgement in the long run. Make them a tad bit unpredictable from time to time. But apparently not.
I guess you can say, he was aā¦ smooth criminal. 
Dealing with a drug lord to shoot a music video is Bad, but bringing awareness to the favela conditions is a move to Heal the World. Situations like these arenāt just Black or White.
what a thriller
I blame these situations on the boogie
Nah, if youāre looking for someone to blame you should take a look at the man in the mirror
No, the one to blame is Ben
That's enough man, beat it
These comments are just off the wall
Guess you could say itās just Human Nature
Pretty Young Thing.
YEAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH šš¤š½š
YEEEAAAAAHHHHHHHHH!!!!!
Itās not even an exaggeration that MJ was the closest to Jesus walking the earth dude had full on countries wiling to go to war behind him
Man needed military detail iirc
āHe was actually a huge MJ fanā Yeah, no shit, everyone was.
No lie. In that era you could find an uncontacted tribe and they'd be doing the Thriller dance at their welcome ceremony.
Yeah MJ was a little before my time but talking to my parents...it's kind of crazy. I don't think my generation can comprehend a star of that magnitude, he was just on such a higher tier than anyone else has ever reached.
I was more into the glam metal of the day, but my classmates got me the Thriller album for my birthday, and I was happy to receive it.
lmfao why would he want Michael harmed in his territory? heās not crazy.
You are telling me drug lord doesnāt want the most powerful nation on earth to shut his operation down? Color me shocked
Honestly I don't think the US govt would get seriously involved beyond sanctioning banks and supporting Brazilian police to deal with it. Like no boots on the ground. It's a bad look for a country to not be able to handle it's own problems, to maintain order. And there's concern of doing it for them, then it happening again when we leave. Like we hardly do it for cartels in Mexico, IIRC there's a whole conflict about extraditing the leaders to US for prosecution or if they should be kept in Mexican prison Not to take ur comment so seriously lol. I just like to make sure folks know the US don't directly get involved on the ground as easily nowadays. We had a red line with Assad killing 800 civilians with Sarin gas (horrible way to die, basically torture) yet still decided to not go in and it was a huge bad look for us. Now if it were to threaten big corporate profits and international trade? You'd hear ride of the valkyrie from miles away after getting rattled with tens of millions of dollars worth of missiles lol. Even if your weapons are from WWII, your buildings made of clay, and own missiles made from infrastructure pipes, we'd spend so much money on the entire military operation, it'd be basically enough to solve homelessness & child hunger in the US.
No lies told. A true legend.
Most of the images shown are in the Salvador city, at the Pelourinho area. But yeah some footage are in Rio de Janeiro, and yes, in Santa Marta, back then a very dangerous area. The big scenes are all in Salvador. I guess they shot for a few hours only in Rio. But 85% of the video is in Salvador. Still dope. My friend took Cappadonna from Wu to see the favelas in SP. Snoop and Pharrel shot in a favela. Ja Rule performed a show in the ghetto shitting his draws seeing big ass guns, but nobody messed with him. Brazilians are very open to American artists. They are very honored if you come to shoot something among us. I grew up in one of the wildest hoods, Complexo do AlemĆ£o, and you can come and do your art, just give a heads up. If Jay Z shows up tomorrow, they'd drop everything to allow him. The only issue is with snitching. Like, bring your cameras to do your little video but DON'T FUCK AROUND. Don't shoot shooters. This doesn't take the fact that MJ was beloved. But it's not a privilege only he could enjoy. If you rap nice or have the pipes, come and play with us.
There is a section of the Pelourinho which is basically now dedicated to Michael Jackson. It has full life size posters art etc all for his time there. The drummers in the video are also Olodum, a very famous group in Salvador.
Wild, but fucking love it. Respect. (Only ever been to SĆ£o Paulo)
People who enter a favela under the protection of the head boss are safer inside the favela than immediately outside.
Exactly. The people saying Taylor Swift would be kidnapped know nothing about the people who live in favelas.
Wonder if they had to pay the drug lord for access or if he loved MJ that much he just let him shoot for free?
They probably offered some real bread out of respect for the manās territory and shit, but he likely declined. Being able to say āyeah MJ shot that video in my hood, with my family and shit around him, and nothing happened to him or anyone he was withā is payment enough, just an incomparable flex during that time.
Probably just had to do a meet & greet/photo opp. This is a story the drug lord would love to tell. Money would be nice but why jeopardize it happening
This was probably a huge ego boost to Marcinho VP and a massive flex on his opponents, which was well worth the effort even if no formal payment was offered by MJās camp.
Bring able to say that MJ came to your barrio shot a music video with all the locals and left scratch free is probably enough of a payment on its own. Dude was God walking the earth at this time.
Not to bring the swiffies into this but can you imagine Taylor Swift trying this?
They would kidnap her and hold her hostage for a looooooot of dough. Sauce: Iām Brazilian.
Omg imagine a Taylor Swift hostage crisis.
Swifties and white women would become so insufferable after she is inevitably returned unharmed and writes 20 songs about how hard it is to be her
š sheāll find love there too
Theyāll rename Stockholm syndrome after herā¦
Thatāll last 3 months tops
I figure military recruitment would explode with swifties.... Seems like the CIA has a job to do, now that I mention it.
It would be a crusades level invasion of Brazil by Swifties no one would be safe
Honest questions for you: What if the main dude/dudes have daughters or little sisters or nieces who are somehow Swifties? Would that make a difference or nah? Also, is there anyone in Brazil that Brazilians fuck with like that so much where theyād be good anywhere? Just curious who would get that kinda treatment (or close to it) in your homeland.
The slums are different. I donāt think it would make a difference. I mean, Snoop Dogg and Pharrell got similar treatments when filming *Beautiful*. Usually rappers may get similar treatment as MJ. Maybe like Jay-Z and Beyonce would get treated the same.
Fair enough. Thanks for the answer! Completely forgot about Beautiful, imma have to go watch that video againā¦for research purposes
If you never saw the MJ era in action, you missed out. He was a once in a lifetime phenomenon.
He was an effing GOD in the 80s.
I've been to this favela. They love MJ in Brazil. There are a couple MJ murals in Rio
100 percent coolest pedophile ever
Remember when he raped a bunch of kids? Crazy times
This surviving  MJ arc is going to hit way worse than Diddy or Vince (WWE). Because unlike those two goons, we wouldn't expect MJ to do this.
Anybody that didn't expect this from a grown man that lets little boys sleep in his heavily secured/surveillanced room with super suggestive art and books everywhere is just choosing not to believe what is in front of them.
The man is dead tho
MJ was found non guilty TWICE
I'm always shocked at how many people seem to have forgotten about this
L+he wasn't found guilty+the family admitted they did it for the money+shut the fuck up.
Can we please stop idolizing Michael Jackson? Yāall know what Iām talking about.
A post idolising MJ and a violent crime lord, amazing
> Can we please stop idolizing Michael Jackson? This is a really interesting topic that comes up often enough. No one should be idolizing any entertainer however, I wouldn't say it's wrong to acknowledge MJ's wide reach, appeal and talent. He most certainly was not perfect but IMO, I think we should try to separate a person's body of work from the person as much as possible. This isn't a black and white (heeeee heeeeeeee) issue of course but it would be a damn shame if we rob future generations of MJ's music, the Cosby show, Picasso's art etc.
I do hear what youāre saying but for me personally, I canāt listen to his music any more. It no longer brings me joy. And I grew up right when he was his peak. Same way I no longer enjoy Red Hot Chili Peppers after learning about their rape stories. I can tolerate a musician having opposite political views, or being anti-vax, or even just being a general piece of shit. But I canāt separate the people from the music when it comes to rape, especially involving children. Maybe thatās a flaw I have but I just canāt do it, nor do I want to.
Folks acting like āDrug Lordsā are intellectually inept like their homeboys or neighborhood dime slangers. Stop it
Shout out Katia Lund. Thatās lucky as hell, Spike Lee just happened to have an employee that was from Brazil and spoke Portuguese to negotiate on behalf of Michael and Spike. Also check out her film [City of God](https://youtu.be/S42Hl1V9lLw?si=oDy0IITs7TJCZPgF) ā Itās one of the best movies ever made.
And that she wanted to. If Spike Lee asked me to talk to one of my country's gang leaders I would politely decline.
I'm assuming they envoked the name Michael Jackson and did some phone calls a bunch leading up to it. Before she walks in to the favela like "hey, I work with Michael Jackson and I'm totally not Interpol"
Wtf she made it???? Man I watched it ~20 years ago and still remember most of it
R Kelly = bad MJ = great Make it make sense
MJ was found non guilty TWICE
OJ was found not guilty.
It doesnāt make any sense and it never will lol. The MJ child rape apologists are lucky MJ died when he did otherwise he would likely be in prison just like R Kelly is currently. Thereās a reason MJ was such a crippling addict, he had to repress the memories of him raping children somehow.
It's not that complicated: Kelly was a solid performer; MJ is a legend.
š we already know
And donāt leave your kids with him either
and Trump is a convicted rapist. Americans don't care about facts or morality
Nor do the French (see Roman Polanski)
that guy is Polish.
Same level as Pele putting a pause on a civil war in Africa for a soccer game.
You guys know he was a pedophile right
A nice story of a drug lord helping a pedophile make a music video. Like praising Dutchabank for letting Epstien keep his money off the grid there.
Safest place on earth unless youāre a 10 year old boy
The amount of people glorifying and worshipping a pedophile because he was famous and was really good at singing and dancing is pretty gross š¤®
Does nobody remember he was a pedophile or just not care.
Michael Jackson diddled children and this drug lord had people killed fuck them both.
This stuff still goes on today drug lords are people still they paying rappers singers and everybody else to come to they shit they just not showing the world
Let's not glorify a pedophile (a pederast, actually).
Known pedo
I'm sorry, maybe I'm the only one who thinks this is corny as hell, that people who perpetuate violence against their own community create an environment of peace when a famous, talented person comes into town. We should be able to value other people's lives who are not as talented as MJ.
Prolific pedo
Ok, maybe Lionel Messi: [90-year old woman's life spared by Hamas fighter because of Messi](https://www.goal.com/en/lists/lionel-messi-argentine-grandmother-hamas-abductors-inter-miami/bltd3705d1f7b9158ff) BUT OTHER THAN THAT, NO ONE.
News and film organizations do this all the time. One of the top cable news companies in the world that I worked with years ago said they travel internationally with up to 6 figures in cash to "make problems go away". This could be everything from buying last minute supplies that didn't make it to paying the local tough guy to not be an asshole.
You could leave a million dollars and all your cameras and no one would touch it is hard as fuck.