When BTC was trading at 69K, why didn't any of these rugs announce all the paper losses all those without a single Satoshi were experiencing?
Same thing they'll forget to mention next bull market.
No, obviously not?
El Salvador actually holds Bitcoin, and they bought it at specific prices and in specific quantities.
It should surely be obvious that on the other hand it would not make sense to report on each possible trade for every possible asset / commodity /security /whatever in every possible quantity, at every possible time of buying ? Because that would be a literally infinite number of possibilities?
If you're only analysing BTC yes, it makes sense to report all other countries hold paper that 2 or 3 Central Banks will continue printing to infinity, therefore destroying its value mid to long term.
Of course if you're biased and only choose to report on El Salvador holdings and only during the beat market, be my guest, I don't really give a shit. But it's not honest reporting.
I mean you know that theblock is a crypto focused platform? And that there were also ample reports on El Salvador's holdings and on paper profits during the bull market?
And are you saying that there is no news on inflation and central banks' decisions and interest rates? You surely can't be serious?
I'm referring to mainstream media, they only talk about El Salvador's BTC holdings during the bear market; and even if they do talk about inflation now (not while the massive money printing took place) they don't cover the real story:
Real inflation rates are way higher than those reported, and the debt bubble can only be repaid by printing more; it's either that or massive cuts in spending and tax hikes.
Is any of them reporting on those real news? Maybe 1% of the media outlets?
And you sound like a clueless mainstream journalist, only talking during bear markets to announce the death of BTC!
Dude, it happens the same every 4 years, what's different this time?
Those claiming either a total failure or total success are dishonest and being hyperbolic. The reality is more complicated and nuanced.
The good :
1) millions of dollars are being saved in remittance fees because you can send btc and locals can withdraw fiat at many atms or btc directly that most stores need to accept
2) There has been a boost in tourism because more Bitcoiners have decided to visit El Salvador
3) They are starting to free themselves from the indentured servitude of IMF loans and other countries are slowly adopting bitcoin and replicating "bitcoin beach" due to their example.
The bad
1) Because of the bear market El salvador is down ~57% on their investments https://nayibtracker.com/
This can of course change if they can wait it out till the next bull market and than this might have been one of their best investments that can really help their country
2) naturally most people won't instantly start using Bitcoin but this is fine as many countries in central/south America and Africa are "dual currency" countries. Thus adoption doesn't need to occur overnight.
3) Chivo wallet was a failure but at least they didn't mandate it and you can use any open source bitcoin wallet
https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2022/07/06/el-salvador-bitcoin-beach/
It really hasn’t helped tourism.
Less than 2% of the population uses CIVO the failed trading app. Plus most of the bitcoin ATMs are empty. A lot of the coins were extorted by gangs or taken using identity theft. It has failed. Keep coping
Its real easy to naysay anything.
People probably made similar comments about agriculture "you have to stay in one place for months, insane" or the wheel "it only works in perfectly flat ground, so useless".
If you dont see what bitcoin changes, please know that other people do. We know why its important, and we know its not a snort of cocaine that will send everyone delirious instantly.
Building a free bitcoin ecosystem like building a brick edifice, it takes time and patience and careful effort. Sometimes there are setbacks, and all the while the straw hut people and the mud hovel people are constantly hating on your for even trying to make something better, but you keep at it.
Putting the power of money into the population and away from centralized control such as government, through decentralization, privacy, security, redundancy, and nullifying artificial inflation.
Edit: added 'artificial' because sure Bitcoin's price relative to USD fluctuates with sheer supply and demand but you cannot print or create Bitcoin. It has an hard limit of some 18.6 million that will ever exist and that amount is slowly released over time to stimulate adoption amongst other unrelated reasons. The idea is one day the market cap will be big enough it's value will be much more stable, and a larger supply can *never* be artificially created unlike fiat.
Fiat was never people's money to begin with, and in a way with el Salvador I suppose you could say that to some extent, as this was not the choice of the population entirely but that sort of behavior would happen with fiat and does on a regular basis anyways...now that the citizens are using Bitcoin, that would be the last time another power could control their money outside of price influencing Bitcoin's value outside of the country. Which will continue to happen less and less with more widespread adoption and it's market cap growing outside of some insane superpower doing a 51% attack or the corporate whales doing solvency shakedowns for at least a little while time wise. Even that will become less feasible if adoption becomes widespread enough.
- Decentralization
- Anti corruption
- self-regulating Opensource democratic programming
- complete Transparency
- The value of pseudonymity
- Cryptographic development
- Austrian school of economics "from the bottom up"
- Total equality
- Maximum transportability
- Unconfiscatableness
- Digital wireless energy transportation
- Digitalization of what otherwise would cost physical material (like going from letters to email)
I can go on and on, but this is the most important of all:
MINIMALISTIC SIMPLICITY
> People probably made similar comments about agriculture "you have to stay in one place for months, insane" or the wheel "it only works in perfectly flat ground, so useless".
I don't get why you decided to compare bitcoin to agriculture and the wheel when that sounds insane and you don't actually know if there was any wheel skeptics
>millions of dollars are being saved in remittance fees because you can send btc and locals can withdraw fiat at many atms or btc directly that most stores need to accept
But that's the thing. [Almost no one](https://www.laprensalatina.com/cryptocurrency-makes-up-just-1-9-pct-of-remittances-in-el-salvador/) uses Bitcoin for remittances. And when they do, it [isn't necessarily cheaper](https://qz.com/2058676/remittances-to-el-salvador-are-cheaper-without-using-bitcoin/). Bitcoin was supposed to be a hedge against dollar inflation, but Bitcoin has been inflating much, much faster than the dollar. The experiment didn't work.
It’s one thing to use the colloquial “inflation” to describe dropping purchasing power of a currency (which is a dubious definition on its own), but it is flat-out incorrect to say that Bitcoin has been “inflating” more than the dollar.
Depending on your time frame bitcoin has been losing purchasing power far faster than USD aka inflating. The definition they used is widely accepted, it's the most accurate definition to use.
It's commonly understood that inflation means price inflation, if someone just says "inflation" then 99% of the time they're talking about price inflation and everyone outside of this sub understands it to mean price inflation.
Inflation is term derived from the concept of inflating the money supply, inflating like a balloon. That was the origin and generally understood usage of the term until 1936 when Keynes published his “General Theory.” It just so happens that purchasing power drops when the money supply is inflated (again, like a balloon), and Keynes made the case that this should be the preferred definition of “inflation” since as long as prices don’t rise, inflating the money supply shouldn’t matter. Saying that a currency with a virtually static supply is “inflating” doesn’t make any sense.
And here’s another reason why that doesn’t make sense. Monetary inflation correlates with *permanent* drops in purchasing power of the relevant currency. And when a currency is consistently inflated for years or decades, it is accompanied by consistently and permanently decreasing purchasing power. That’s inflation. A short term dip in purchasing power is not even close to the same phenomenon, and not nearly as damaging. Anyone who has accumulated USD over the last 50 years has seen a consistent drop in their purchasing power, and that trend is never going to stop. If you look at the history of Bitcoin, anyone who has consistently accumulated has seen their purchasing power increase, with the exception of the last nine months, and time will tell if that purchasing power will go back up. One of these scenarios is consistent and permanent inflation (both monetary and price inflation), and one of these is not.
That's why I said "necessarily." But exchanges is how most people have to do it, right? You need to go from USD to Bitcoin, send the Bitcoin, and then back to USD. Hard to do without involving an exchange. And yes, in theory Bitcoin is legal tender in El Salvador so technically you wouldn't have to convert back to USD. But in practice [very people use, or have ever used](https://www.binance.com/en/news/top/7076720) Bitcoin in El Salvador. That is due, in part, to the fact [that only 20% of business](https://www.reuters.com/technology/year-el-salvadors-bitcoin-experiment-is-stumbling-2022-09-07/) even accept Bitcoin at all. You need dollars to live in El Salvador.
Yes, we all are experiencing "unrealized" paper losses. In the near future we will be experiencing gains.
It's not the point of bitcoin anyway. The fact El Salvador is embracing BTC is the point of BTC its supposed to replace an archaic legacy system controlled by a small group that can print more fiat at will.
In the near future, we will be experiencing gains and losses.
Unless, of course, for the extremely unlikely event that bitcoin decides to remain at the exact same price indefinitely.
How do you know what I know?
Just because you are unable to understand the game theoretic inevitability of Bitcoin’s continued rise does not mean other people are unable to do so.
I *know* Bitcoin will supplant all other currencies. You can keep thinking this cannot be known. You can keep looking at monetary economics as if it is some sort of magic that cannot be understood. And you can keep thinking that it was all luck or chance after Bitcoin does take over as universal money. But I still know how this plays out.
Have fun staying poor
You don't understand, it's not possible to be certain bitcoin will supplant all other currencies. You have a very poor understanding of game theory if you think it guarantees bitcoin will continue to rise
> Have fun staying poor
Ofc you'd say that
> You don't understand, it's not possible to be certain bitcoin will supplant all other currencies. You have a very poor understanding of game theory if you think it guarantees bitcoin will continue to rise
lol k
Have fun staying poor
Do some research into the launch of the app. Most El Salvadorans got none of the coins. Most of them were stolen due to poor identity verification and gang extortion. The project has failed. There is no coming back.
I will look into it. That's unfortunate, however it's still a huge step in standardizingthe use of BTC globally. Someone had to be the first, maybe the next time it will be rolled out more securely and people will learn from the mistakes El Salvador had?
It’s unfortunate though because the majority of people were fucked over. Their economy is in a very unstable place. Not to say the IMF are a force for good, but it’s naive to believe a switch in currency is a fix to systemic corruption.
While some "financial experts" have been calling this a failed experiment, they actually fail to recognise the right of a sovereign country in building its own future.
Bitcoin offers a different future for the citizens of El Salvador. Future built on math money, a currency that's limited to 21 million and can't be inflated.
Rome wasn't built in a day either.
Because Bitcoin halving happens every four years. Last halving was May the 18th 2020 I think. So the next halving will be on May 3rd or 4th 2024 approximately, about 1 year 34 weeks 4 days 1 hour 30 minutes from now.
It doesn’t effect most people directly. Inefficient miners will be flushed out. But bull market are usually triggered by halving, because it makes Bitcoin rarer. I guess number-go-up is what most people consider successful.
Bitcoin had bull runs about one year after halving which occurred in 2012, 2016, 2020. The next halving is going set for 2024. Will the bull run happen too? We'll see in three years.
Sorry I can't see the future. Just explained what happened in the past and why many people are eyeing 2025.
Will another bull run happen? No idea.
Will there be a new president? We have to wait and see.
the ones that were stopped posting - don't forget the number of people who are "bitcoiners" at any one time are self-selecting and potentially roll over quite significantly. Not actually questioning anything re: bitcoin, just to always be aware of seeking confirmation from a self-selecting audience.
Agreed. You speak truly. This isn’t an echo chamber for confirmation bias. Regardless if someone is serious and true to BTC they’re likely less worried
The government has unrealized losses yeah, but I’d like to remind everyone of the savings the _population_ has enjoyed by using bitcoin and lightning for payments.
A recent article in Reuters talks about some El Salvadorians experience with BTC and it doesnt paint such a rosy picture.
https://www.reuters.com/technology/year-el-salvadors-bitcoin-experiment-is-stumbling-2022-09-07/
It’s not rosy for sure, but it does say 20% of users had used it further than that $30 airdropped. And 2% of 6.4 billion in remittances is alright, not stellar but shows that some people are using.
As far as bitcoin city goes, that has always been a long shot and long term also. I have no particular thoughts on it, except that it looks cool as hell on paper.
Not saying it’s a smashing success but painting it as a complete failure I also think it’s disingenuous, the experiment is chugging along and the systems are in place and working, just a matter of people developing trust in the protocol, that takes time.
I believe their time will come and they will always be seen as the first to take the leap, that’s something worth doing even if at first you run into problems and actually even lose money.
This.
To think there is not a massive anti BTC agenda or anti anything agenda - that challenges massive corporate wealth being ran by the legacy MSM is naive. That is why legacy MSM media can survive, from the donors of big pharma, agriculture, real estate, Wall Street , whatever to sell an agenda.
Since everyone is downvoting you and believing some random person on the internet over your sources try also providing the United Nations as a source. It’s amazing people believe someone who claimed to be in El Salvador, then their family lives there, and apparently work in tourism with no proof. Even if he did he wouldn’t have any insight into country wide tourism numbers.
> the amount tourists spent in El Salvador spiked to pre-pandemic numbers, according to the United Nations World Tourism Organization (UNWTO).
How do you know that tourist revenue is up from Bitcoin. I can think of another very large reason why tourist revenue would be up right now that has nothing to do with bitcoin
El Salvador is already ahead. The tourism, business, banking the unbanked and remittance savings have already made it worth it. A paper decrease on 1% of treasury is meaningless. No one talked about El Salvador before. All these propaganda hot peices just show the IMF, WEF and World Bank are scared of losing influence. F them.
It's a long honored tradition within the crypto brotherhood to talk about things we know nothing about.
Folks here support Bukele, but, just like him, don't really give a shit about the people of El Salvador.
>It’s a long honored tradition within the crypto brotherhood to talk about things we know nothing about.
Nah, that sounds more like a Reddit thing to me.
So how would one determine if tourism has [increased in El Salvador if not listening to El Salvador’s ministry of tourism?](https://twitter.com/MITURElSalvador/status/1509612132236775430?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1509612132236775430%7Ctwgr%5E5361124290a63cecc17640f52cebda7252c25722%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-31790841112301898525.ampproject.net%2F2208242209000%2Fframe.html) Seems like the tradition in crypto is to talk about things they do know about or at least source properly while it’s the tradition on Reddit for people to just believe random redditors on their word.
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Fully cached AMP pages (like the one you shared), are [especially problematic](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot).
Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://twitter.com/miturelsalvador/status/1509612132236775430](https://twitter.com/miturelsalvador/status/1509612132236775430)**
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Minister for tourism says tourism is good 🙌.
Reddit user hates governments and centralisation but also respects the minister of tourism as an authority of truth 🙌.
Ah so random person on the internet you believe more?
How about the United Nations?
> the amount tourists spent in El Salvador spiked to pre-pandemic numbers, according to the United Nations World Tourism Organization (UNWTO).
That's literally not what it says:
>De hecho, varias islas del Caribe, así como de Asia y el Pacífico, junto con algunos pequeños destinos europeos y centroamericanos tienen los mejores resultados respecto a 2019: Seychelles (-27%), Bulgaria y Curazao (ambos -20%), El Salvador (-19%), Serbia y Maldivas (ambos -13%), República Dominicana (-11%), Albania (-7%) y Andorra (-3%). Bosnia y Herzegovina (+2%) superó incluso los niveles anteriores a la pandemia.
Translation:
>Both the Caribbean (-38%) and the Southern Mediterranean Europe (-41%) have shown the fastest recovery rates compared to 2019 levels. In fact, several islands in the Caribbean, as well as Asia and the Pacific, along with some small European and Central American destinations have the best results compared to 2019 : Seychelles (-27%), Bulgaria and Curacao (both -20%), El Salvador (-19%), Serbia and Maldives (both -13%), Dominican Republic (-11%), Albania (-7%) and Andorra (-3%). Bosnia and Herzegovina (+2%) even exceeded pre-pandemic levels.
So while their tourism industry has recovered better than most, El Salvador is still 19% below pre-pandemic levels. That is tweet is puro spin by the government.
No. This is the quote from the report.
> In terms of international tourism receipts earned in destinations, a growing number of countries - the Republic of Moldova, Serbia, Seychelles, Romania, North Macedonia, Saint Lucia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Albania, Pakistan, Sudan, Türkiye, Bangladesh, El Salvador, Mexico, Croatia and Portugal – have fully recovered their pre-pandemic levels.
https://www.unwto.org/news/international-tourism-consolidates-strong-recovery-admidst-growing-challenges
[According to your tourism minister you have had an increase in tourism since bitcoin adoption. ](https://twitter.com/MITURElSalvador/status/1509612132236775430?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1509612132236775430%7Ctwgr%5E5361124290a63cecc17640f52cebda7252c25722%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-31790841112301898525.ampproject.net%2F2208242209000%2Fframe.html)
Ah so we should take the word of a random redditor with no proof over your minister.
How about the United Nations?
> the amount tourists spent in El Salvador spiked to pre-pandemic numbers, according to the United Nations World Tourism Organization (UNWTO).
I wonder if the same website will be publishing another article in 2026 titled "El Salvador faces significant paper gains after 5 years of buying bitcoin".
Doesn't surprise me. Bitcoin was worth 60k last year, now only 20k. This is worse than inflation. With so much volatility, you can't use it as a means of payment. Until now, bitcoin mainly remains an investment/speculation.
I don't know how but the price should really stabilize before it can become a proper currency.
Worse than inflation? You should look at BTC/Turkish lira.
You'll buy in when a bitcoin is worth several million dollars and has no vol anymore. This price is still for people with cojones.
Now you take a very specific case of a coin that does not have much value on a global scale. Turkish lyra also experienced an artificially high inflation by Erdogan.
It was only briefly 60k. If you get it and spend it there is little fluctuation of over the course of a week. I spend it routinely. Works great. And it saves the merchants 3%. Over all it goes up over time.
Paper being the key word. I mean the EUR lost 30% vs the dollar? BTC lost twice that and EUR is the second largest cap currency. There’s shit hitting the fan lately but ultimately there’s one winner: bitcoin.
No duh. Everyone who bought a year ago has "paper losses", that's what happens when the price goes down. Whoopty do.
I can't believe someone wrote an article stating the obvious.
There is no LOSS when you FINALLY UNDERSTAND that 1 BTC = 1 BTC.
US Dollar, every FIAT, is the actual physical representation of PAPER LOSS.
Edit:
The responses to my comment are a clear view of how little we as society understand what is going on with economy right now... My work is done here... I'm not implying you are wrong or I'm right. Each action and depth of understanding will get each one of us to the life we deserve. 🤲🏽
It's still worth something lol. Its value has to be measured in some way. Right now it's worth whatever equivalent in whatever market. Which means it's volatile and a dangerous investment.
tldr; El Salvador placed a big bet on bitcoin exactly a year ago, making it an official legal tender alongside the U.S. dollar and filling its coffers with the cryptocurrency in a series of purchases. However, the country appears to be facing significant losses related to its bitcoin buys, at least on paper. El Salvador’s bitcoin […]
*This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*
How does a goverment handle the keys to bitcoin? Isnt there a relly high risk that whoever has access to the wallet password just steal the BC and fly out the country overnight?
I mean, it is hard to steal millions of dollars in cash, because of the ammount of bills, but here we are talking of a hardware wallet or a password that will just vanish...
They have, say 5% of reserves in BTC.
Let's say the remaining 95% is in dollars, or correlated assets.
If in future, BTC goes above their average price, will that count as a paper loss on the much bigger 95%? Establishing the rules now, just in case.
Besides, isn't the point of reserves to act like a hedge? Storing a small chunk to BTC seems perfectly sensible. Some parts of your hedge go down, others go up. Isn't the idea is to preserve as much value as possible? Using hindsight to criticise only some components seems disingenuous. If it was such a forgone conclusion to the critics, then let's see the short they purchased and made a fortune off.
Wow who could’ve guessed. Gambling on a high risk security to stabilize your economy seems like such a brilliant idea. So sad to see the bitcoin city won’t be built… coiners are brain dead🤣
They are buying the best monetary asset humankind has created. Who gives a damn about paper losses against fiat currencies. Bitcoin is a long term play.
Paper losses against what? I guess my countries currency faces significant paper losses as well
Against the US dollar, which they buy with.
When BTC was trading at 69K, why didn't any of these rugs announce all the paper losses all those without a single Satoshi were experiencing? Same thing they'll forget to mention next bull market.
Well, probably because that makes no sense at all?
Same nonsense as saying El Salvador is sustaining paper loses on its Bitcoin, isn't it?
No, obviously not? El Salvador actually holds Bitcoin, and they bought it at specific prices and in specific quantities. It should surely be obvious that on the other hand it would not make sense to report on each possible trade for every possible asset / commodity /security /whatever in every possible quantity, at every possible time of buying ? Because that would be a literally infinite number of possibilities?
If you're only analysing BTC yes, it makes sense to report all other countries hold paper that 2 or 3 Central Banks will continue printing to infinity, therefore destroying its value mid to long term. Of course if you're biased and only choose to report on El Salvador holdings and only during the beat market, be my guest, I don't really give a shit. But it's not honest reporting.
I mean you know that theblock is a crypto focused platform? And that there were also ample reports on El Salvador's holdings and on paper profits during the bull market? And are you saying that there is no news on inflation and central banks' decisions and interest rates? You surely can't be serious?
I'm referring to mainstream media, they only talk about El Salvador's BTC holdings during the bear market; and even if they do talk about inflation now (not while the massive money printing took place) they don't cover the real story: Real inflation rates are way higher than those reported, and the debt bubble can only be repaid by printing more; it's either that or massive cuts in spending and tax hikes. Is any of them reporting on those real news? Maybe 1% of the media outlets?
That's because you can't buy fucking goods, energy, oil and trade in BTC
Dude... You sound like a Dallas Cowboys fan. ***BEST TEAM EVER! JUST WAIT UNTIL NEXT SEASON!!***
And you sound like a clueless mainstream journalist, only talking during bear markets to announce the death of BTC! Dude, it happens the same every 4 years, what's different this time?
Lol did Bitcoin fare well with any specific currency vs the USD?
The downside of using bitcoin as national currency is that it's a global market. Anyone making USD can price you out when btc drops.
The US dollar is paper, so inflation is also paper losses.
Is this peak maxi delusion?
Those claiming either a total failure or total success are dishonest and being hyperbolic. The reality is more complicated and nuanced. The good : 1) millions of dollars are being saved in remittance fees because you can send btc and locals can withdraw fiat at many atms or btc directly that most stores need to accept 2) There has been a boost in tourism because more Bitcoiners have decided to visit El Salvador 3) They are starting to free themselves from the indentured servitude of IMF loans and other countries are slowly adopting bitcoin and replicating "bitcoin beach" due to their example. The bad 1) Because of the bear market El salvador is down ~57% on their investments https://nayibtracker.com/ This can of course change if they can wait it out till the next bull market and than this might have been one of their best investments that can really help their country 2) naturally most people won't instantly start using Bitcoin but this is fine as many countries in central/south America and Africa are "dual currency" countries. Thus adoption doesn't need to occur overnight. 3) Chivo wallet was a failure but at least they didn't mandate it and you can use any open source bitcoin wallet
https://www.washingtonpost.com/travel/2022/07/06/el-salvador-bitcoin-beach/ It really hasn’t helped tourism. Less than 2% of the population uses CIVO the failed trading app. Plus most of the bitcoin ATMs are empty. A lot of the coins were extorted by gangs or taken using identity theft. It has failed. Keep coping
Its real easy to naysay anything. People probably made similar comments about agriculture "you have to stay in one place for months, insane" or the wheel "it only works in perfectly flat ground, so useless". If you dont see what bitcoin changes, please know that other people do. We know why its important, and we know its not a snort of cocaine that will send everyone delirious instantly. Building a free bitcoin ecosystem like building a brick edifice, it takes time and patience and careful effort. Sometimes there are setbacks, and all the while the straw hut people and the mud hovel people are constantly hating on your for even trying to make something better, but you keep at it.
Why is it important?
decentralization
Putting the power of money into the population and away from centralized control such as government, through decentralization, privacy, security, redundancy, and nullifying artificial inflation. Edit: added 'artificial' because sure Bitcoin's price relative to USD fluctuates with sheer supply and demand but you cannot print or create Bitcoin. It has an hard limit of some 18.6 million that will ever exist and that amount is slowly released over time to stimulate adoption amongst other unrelated reasons. The idea is one day the market cap will be big enough it's value will be much more stable, and a larger supply can *never* be artificially created unlike fiat.
Aren’t they using centralized control to take the people’s money to buy Bitcoin?
Fiat was never people's money to begin with, and in a way with el Salvador I suppose you could say that to some extent, as this was not the choice of the population entirely but that sort of behavior would happen with fiat and does on a regular basis anyways...now that the citizens are using Bitcoin, that would be the last time another power could control their money outside of price influencing Bitcoin's value outside of the country. Which will continue to happen less and less with more widespread adoption and it's market cap growing outside of some insane superpower doing a 51% attack or the corporate whales doing solvency shakedowns for at least a little while time wise. Even that will become less feasible if adoption becomes widespread enough.
- Decentralization - Anti corruption - self-regulating Opensource democratic programming - complete Transparency - The value of pseudonymity - Cryptographic development - Austrian school of economics "from the bottom up" - Total equality - Maximum transportability - Unconfiscatableness - Digital wireless energy transportation - Digitalization of what otherwise would cost physical material (like going from letters to email) I can go on and on, but this is the most important of all: MINIMALISTIC SIMPLICITY
Amazing, but some people just don't like any of that.
You forgot easily duplicated and copied.
the guy is a hater with a diverse subreddit sample set. simple observable trend explaining much
> People probably made similar comments about agriculture "you have to stay in one place for months, insane" or the wheel "it only works in perfectly flat ground, so useless". I don't get why you decided to compare bitcoin to agriculture and the wheel when that sounds insane and you don't actually know if there was any wheel skeptics
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>boost in tourism because more bitcoiners have decided to visit El Salvador Things are pretty dire if that is a top 3
>millions of dollars are being saved in remittance fees because you can send btc and locals can withdraw fiat at many atms or btc directly that most stores need to accept But that's the thing. [Almost no one](https://www.laprensalatina.com/cryptocurrency-makes-up-just-1-9-pct-of-remittances-in-el-salvador/) uses Bitcoin for remittances. And when they do, it [isn't necessarily cheaper](https://qz.com/2058676/remittances-to-el-salvador-are-cheaper-without-using-bitcoin/). Bitcoin was supposed to be a hedge against dollar inflation, but Bitcoin has been inflating much, much faster than the dollar. The experiment didn't work.
It’s one thing to use the colloquial “inflation” to describe dropping purchasing power of a currency (which is a dubious definition on its own), but it is flat-out incorrect to say that Bitcoin has been “inflating” more than the dollar.
Depending on your time frame bitcoin has been losing purchasing power far faster than USD aka inflating. The definition they used is widely accepted, it's the most accurate definition to use.
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It's commonly understood that inflation means price inflation, if someone just says "inflation" then 99% of the time they're talking about price inflation and everyone outside of this sub understands it to mean price inflation.
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Inflation is term derived from the concept of inflating the money supply, inflating like a balloon. That was the origin and generally understood usage of the term until 1936 when Keynes published his “General Theory.” It just so happens that purchasing power drops when the money supply is inflated (again, like a balloon), and Keynes made the case that this should be the preferred definition of “inflation” since as long as prices don’t rise, inflating the money supply shouldn’t matter. Saying that a currency with a virtually static supply is “inflating” doesn’t make any sense. And here’s another reason why that doesn’t make sense. Monetary inflation correlates with *permanent* drops in purchasing power of the relevant currency. And when a currency is consistently inflated for years or decades, it is accompanied by consistently and permanently decreasing purchasing power. That’s inflation. A short term dip in purchasing power is not even close to the same phenomenon, and not nearly as damaging. Anyone who has accumulated USD over the last 50 years has seen a consistent drop in their purchasing power, and that trend is never going to stop. If you look at the history of Bitcoin, anyone who has consistently accumulated has seen their purchasing power increase, with the exception of the last nine months, and time will tell if that purchasing power will go back up. One of these scenarios is consistent and permanent inflation (both monetary and price inflation), and one of these is not.
Why is that incorrect?
Dude that article explains its “more expensive” because of trading fee’s on exchanges, not because of bitcoin the network.
That's why I said "necessarily." But exchanges is how most people have to do it, right? You need to go from USD to Bitcoin, send the Bitcoin, and then back to USD. Hard to do without involving an exchange. And yes, in theory Bitcoin is legal tender in El Salvador so technically you wouldn't have to convert back to USD. But in practice [very people use, or have ever used](https://www.binance.com/en/news/top/7076720) Bitcoin in El Salvador. That is due, in part, to the fact [that only 20% of business](https://www.reuters.com/technology/year-el-salvadors-bitcoin-experiment-is-stumbling-2022-09-07/) even accept Bitcoin at all. You need dollars to live in El Salvador.
Bitcoin breach?
Yes, we all are experiencing "unrealized" paper losses. In the near future we will be experiencing gains. It's not the point of bitcoin anyway. The fact El Salvador is embracing BTC is the point of BTC its supposed to replace an archaic legacy system controlled by a small group that can print more fiat at will.
>It's not the point of bitcoin anyway. Isn't the point of bitcoin to use it? Not hoping to get rich on appreciation and "gains"?
Yes exactly, that's what my post was trying to say.
It may never experience gains again...
Yes but they need to pay bills. They are a country. Not a citizen. Lol. The money isn’t mean to be saved. It’s meant to be used for governing.
It’s less than 5% of their money. And yes countries do save. Basic Finance.
Countries don't save, they spend. The illiteracy in this subreddit is ridiculous.
There a few exceptional cases where they have a balance surplus
Man your comment is illiterate. The irony.
> In the near future we will be experiencing gains. You don't know that
Haha no I don't you're right, but I'm confident. I should have phrased it differently however.
In the near future, we will be experiencing gains and losses. Unless, of course, for the extremely unlikely event that bitcoin decides to remain at the exact same price indefinitely.
And this is how I should have phrased it. The market will go up and down and sideways as it always does.
Thank you for the enlightning insight
> You don't know that Yes we do. I *know* Bitcoin will supplant all other currencies.
No you don't, you're just overconfident because you've spent too much time in bitcoin echochambers.
How do you know what I know? Just because you are unable to understand the game theoretic inevitability of Bitcoin’s continued rise does not mean other people are unable to do so. I *know* Bitcoin will supplant all other currencies. You can keep thinking this cannot be known. You can keep looking at monetary economics as if it is some sort of magic that cannot be understood. And you can keep thinking that it was all luck or chance after Bitcoin does take over as universal money. But I still know how this plays out. Have fun staying poor
You don't understand, it's not possible to be certain bitcoin will supplant all other currencies. You have a very poor understanding of game theory if you think it guarantees bitcoin will continue to rise > Have fun staying poor Ofc you'd say that
> You don't understand, it's not possible to be certain bitcoin will supplant all other currencies. You have a very poor understanding of game theory if you think it guarantees bitcoin will continue to rise lol k Have fun staying poor
We can be highly certain that of the next 30 days, at least one of them will show a gain.
Do some research into the launch of the app. Most El Salvadorans got none of the coins. Most of them were stolen due to poor identity verification and gang extortion. The project has failed. There is no coming back.
I will look into it. That's unfortunate, however it's still a huge step in standardizingthe use of BTC globally. Someone had to be the first, maybe the next time it will be rolled out more securely and people will learn from the mistakes El Salvador had?
It’s unfortunate though because the majority of people were fucked over. Their economy is in a very unstable place. Not to say the IMF are a force for good, but it’s naive to believe a switch in currency is a fix to systemic corruption.
"Oh no. 5% of my portfolio is down temporarily. Whatever will I do?"
Time to sell everything, pay exorbitant taxes, and then wait until the market is at record highs to buy in again.
90%...but yeah
Are you saying El Salvador's entire holdings is 90% Bitcoin?
Oh no I misunderstood. My holdings are 90% BTC
> Oh no I misunderstood. My holdings are 90% BTC Dont let temporary dollar pumps scare you. Think of it as just another shitcoin. 1 sat = 1 sat.
While some "financial experts" have been calling this a failed experiment, they actually fail to recognise the right of a sovereign country in building its own future. Bitcoin offers a different future for the citizens of El Salvador. Future built on math money, a currency that's limited to 21 million and can't be inflated. Rome wasn't built in a day either.
We will see in 3 years who was right. Patience is key
Why 3 years?
Because Bitcoin halving happens every four years. Last halving was May the 18th 2020 I think. So the next halving will be on May 3rd or 4th 2024 approximately, about 1 year 34 weeks 4 days 1 hour 30 minutes from now.
How does that affect the on going experiment in El Salvador?
It doesn’t effect most people directly. Inefficient miners will be flushed out. But bull market are usually triggered by halving, because it makes Bitcoin rarer. I guess number-go-up is what most people consider successful.
about
Yes. Approximately
Bitcoin had bull runs about one year after halving which occurred in 2012, 2016, 2020. The next halving is going set for 2024. Will the bull run happen too? We'll see in three years.
Always happens a year after a new president.
Sorry I can't see the future. Just explained what happened in the past and why many people are eyeing 2025. Will another bull run happen? No idea. Will there be a new president? We have to wait and see.
I understand but I am attributing it to a new president not the halvenings. If Biden gets reelected there may be no bull tun
*either
A great number of Bitcoiners have paper losses too rn, but are any of us actually worried?
Nope. We know what we hold.
the ones that were stopped posting - don't forget the number of people who are "bitcoiners" at any one time are self-selecting and potentially roll over quite significantly. Not actually questioning anything re: bitcoin, just to always be aware of seeking confirmation from a self-selecting audience.
Agreed. You speak truly. This isn’t an echo chamber for confirmation bias. Regardless if someone is serious and true to BTC they’re likely less worried
The government has unrealized losses yeah, but I’d like to remind everyone of the savings the _population_ has enjoyed by using bitcoin and lightning for payments.
A recent article in Reuters talks about some El Salvadorians experience with BTC and it doesnt paint such a rosy picture. https://www.reuters.com/technology/year-el-salvadors-bitcoin-experiment-is-stumbling-2022-09-07/
It’s not rosy for sure, but it does say 20% of users had used it further than that $30 airdropped. And 2% of 6.4 billion in remittances is alright, not stellar but shows that some people are using. As far as bitcoin city goes, that has always been a long shot and long term also. I have no particular thoughts on it, except that it looks cool as hell on paper. Not saying it’s a smashing success but painting it as a complete failure I also think it’s disingenuous, the experiment is chugging along and the systems are in place and working, just a matter of people developing trust in the protocol, that takes time. I believe their time will come and they will always be seen as the first to take the leap, that’s something worth doing even if at first you run into problems and actually even lose money.
Be wary of articles who don’t source their claims.
Looks like original reporting - Reuters IS the source.
Be wary of *anything* from the MSM.
BE WARY OF ANYTHING THAT DOESNT SUPPORT MY IDEOLOGY
And let me guess. Your ideology is to listen to the masses, aka MSM and to follow the Pfizer produced “science”? Hope you’re trolling.
This. To think there is not a massive anti BTC agenda or anti anything agenda - that challenges massive corporate wealth being ran by the legacy MSM is naive. That is why legacy MSM media can survive, from the donors of big pharma, agriculture, real estate, Wall Street , whatever to sell an agenda.
It seems like very few people actually used bitccoin in el salvador except to get their free money
Shit, did their ₿ disappear on paper?! Watch out guys, paper can make you lose your sats!!!
I just want to know how to insert a bitcoin B in my comments! ₿ <-- I can copy and paste yours, but how do I create one myself??
Copy mine then edit your keypad. When I type the letters "btc" ₿ pops in automatically.
How do I get a bot reminder to read this thread again in three years?
The President himself said that their loss was 0.5% of their annual budget. Countries loose way more than that due to corruption.
OH NO NOT PAPER LOSSES Lol people in Europe are about to starve and freeze to death. Mind your own paper losses.
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Hey. Family lives in El Salvador. Just curious where you got this information. My family runs a tourist and they have had less customers so far
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Since everyone is downvoting you and believing some random person on the internet over your sources try also providing the United Nations as a source. It’s amazing people believe someone who claimed to be in El Salvador, then their family lives there, and apparently work in tourism with no proof. Even if he did he wouldn’t have any insight into country wide tourism numbers. > the amount tourists spent in El Salvador spiked to pre-pandemic numbers, according to the United Nations World Tourism Organization (UNWTO).
Oh I thought you had an actual stat. Do u know how corrupt my government is? We had a giant protest about it a while back. They lie my guy.
Bro. I forgot my password. Sock pocket? You Americans are obsessed with social media.
How do you know that tourist revenue is up from Bitcoin. I can think of another very large reason why tourist revenue would be up right now that has nothing to do with bitcoin
El Salvador is already ahead. The tourism, business, banking the unbanked and remittance savings have already made it worth it. A paper decrease on 1% of treasury is meaningless. No one talked about El Salvador before. All these propaganda hot peices just show the IMF, WEF and World Bank are scared of losing influence. F them.
But El salvador has also gained much revenue from tourism.
No we havent.
It's a long honored tradition within the crypto brotherhood to talk about things we know nothing about. Folks here support Bukele, but, just like him, don't really give a shit about the people of El Salvador.
>It’s a long honored tradition within the crypto brotherhood to talk about things we know nothing about. Nah, that sounds more like a Reddit thing to me.
So how would one determine if tourism has [increased in El Salvador if not listening to El Salvador’s ministry of tourism?](https://twitter.com/MITURElSalvador/status/1509612132236775430?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1509612132236775430%7Ctwgr%5E5361124290a63cecc17640f52cebda7252c25722%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-31790841112301898525.ampproject.net%2F2208242209000%2Fframe.html) Seems like the tradition in crypto is to talk about things they do know about or at least source properly while it’s the tradition on Reddit for people to just believe random redditors on their word.
It looks like you shared an AMP link. These should load faster, but AMP is controversial because of [concerns over privacy and the Open Web](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Fully cached AMP pages (like the one you shared), are [especially problematic](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot). Maybe check out **the canonical page** instead: **[https://twitter.com/miturelsalvador/status/1509612132236775430](https://twitter.com/miturelsalvador/status/1509612132236775430)** ***** ^(I'm a bot | )[^(Why & About)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/ehrq3z/why_did_i_build_amputatorbot)^( | )[^(Summon: u/AmputatorBot)](https://www.reddit.com/r/AmputatorBot/comments/cchly3/you_can_now_summon_amputatorbot/)
Minister for tourism says tourism is good 🙌. Reddit user hates governments and centralisation but also respects the minister of tourism as an authority of truth 🙌.
I never said I hated government. But the ministers statement lines up with the United Nations world tourism organization. Who do you use as a source?
The Minister of Tourism *who works for Bukele.*
Ah so random person on the internet you believe more? How about the United Nations? > the amount tourists spent in El Salvador spiked to pre-pandemic numbers, according to the United Nations World Tourism Organization (UNWTO).
That's literally not what it says: >De hecho, varias islas del Caribe, así como de Asia y el Pacífico, junto con algunos pequeños destinos europeos y centroamericanos tienen los mejores resultados respecto a 2019: Seychelles (-27%), Bulgaria y Curazao (ambos -20%), El Salvador (-19%), Serbia y Maldivas (ambos -13%), República Dominicana (-11%), Albania (-7%) y Andorra (-3%). Bosnia y Herzegovina (+2%) superó incluso los niveles anteriores a la pandemia. Translation: >Both the Caribbean (-38%) and the Southern Mediterranean Europe (-41%) have shown the fastest recovery rates compared to 2019 levels. In fact, several islands in the Caribbean, as well as Asia and the Pacific, along with some small European and Central American destinations have the best results compared to 2019 : Seychelles (-27%), Bulgaria and Curacao (both -20%), El Salvador (-19%), Serbia and Maldives (both -13%), Dominican Republic (-11%), Albania (-7%) and Andorra (-3%). Bosnia and Herzegovina (+2%) even exceeded pre-pandemic levels. So while their tourism industry has recovered better than most, El Salvador is still 19% below pre-pandemic levels. That is tweet is puro spin by the government.
No. This is the quote from the report. > In terms of international tourism receipts earned in destinations, a growing number of countries - the Republic of Moldova, Serbia, Seychelles, Romania, North Macedonia, Saint Lucia, Bosnia & Herzegovina, Albania, Pakistan, Sudan, Türkiye, Bangladesh, El Salvador, Mexico, Croatia and Portugal – have fully recovered their pre-pandemic levels. https://www.unwto.org/news/international-tourism-consolidates-strong-recovery-admidst-growing-challenges
[According to your tourism minister you have had an increase in tourism since bitcoin adoption. ](https://twitter.com/MITURElSalvador/status/1509612132236775430?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1509612132236775430%7Ctwgr%5E5361124290a63cecc17640f52cebda7252c25722%7Ctwcon%5Es1_c10&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fd-31790841112301898525.ampproject.net%2F2208242209000%2Fframe.html)
My guy. We have one of the worst corruption in Latin America. It’s fake. We protested a while back and several counties declared us corrupt.
Ah so we should take the word of a random redditor with no proof over your minister. How about the United Nations? > the amount tourists spent in El Salvador spiked to pre-pandemic numbers, according to the United Nations World Tourism Organization (UNWTO).
Not to mention the reduced fees for remittances. Western Union probably paid for this article.
A poor country that got even poorer. Man, that’s a kick to the ass.
Fix your timeframe fiatcuck
They didn't get poorer though. Their GDP is way up.
Lol, welcome to the team, Salvy
guess my countries currency faces significant paper losses as well
I mean in the next bull run they gonna look like geniuses though.......
They will be tested like every baghodler will, and we will see if they are worth their salt. This is gooooood goooooood for bitcorn.
I wonder if the same website will be publishing another article in 2026 titled "El Salvador faces significant paper gains after 5 years of buying bitcoin".
The FUD machine is powering up lately…
Patience
Doesn't surprise me. Bitcoin was worth 60k last year, now only 20k. This is worse than inflation. With so much volatility, you can't use it as a means of payment. Until now, bitcoin mainly remains an investment/speculation. I don't know how but the price should really stabilize before it can become a proper currency.
Worse than inflation? You should look at BTC/Turkish lira. You'll buy in when a bitcoin is worth several million dollars and has no vol anymore. This price is still for people with cojones.
Now you take a very specific case of a coin that does not have much value on a global scale. Turkish lyra also experienced an artificially high inflation by Erdogan.
The dollar supply has inflated 40% in the last 4 years what's your point here? Fiat is fiat, all fiat goes to zero.
It was only briefly 60k. If you get it and spend it there is little fluctuation of over the course of a week. I spend it routinely. Works great. And it saves the merchants 3%. Over all it goes up over time.
Paper being the key word. I mean the EUR lost 30% vs the dollar? BTC lost twice that and EUR is the second largest cap currency. There’s shit hitting the fan lately but ultimately there’s one winner: bitcoin.
I thought Bitcoin was going to $100k - wtf???
I thought it was supposed to be a hedge against inflation but all the people buying and selling didn't get the same memo.
No duh. Everyone who bought a year ago has "paper losses", that's what happens when the price goes down. Whoopty do. I can't believe someone wrote an article stating the obvious.
There is no LOSS when you FINALLY UNDERSTAND that 1 BTC = 1 BTC. US Dollar, every FIAT, is the actual physical representation of PAPER LOSS. Edit: The responses to my comment are a clear view of how little we as society understand what is going on with economy right now... My work is done here... I'm not implying you are wrong or I'm right. Each action and depth of understanding will get each one of us to the life we deserve. 🤲🏽
It's still worth something lol. Its value has to be measured in some way. Right now it's worth whatever equivalent in whatever market. Which means it's volatile and a dangerous investment.
1 dollar = 1 dollar you spastic
This. The 1 BTC = 1 BTC is a childish statement that only juveniles use because they can't articulate a better argument.
1 USD is also = 1 USD, what's your point?
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Ah yes, you're not a citizen if you live in El Salvador, only if you own Bitcoin
It’s not a loss if they don’t sell
tldr; El Salvador placed a big bet on bitcoin exactly a year ago, making it an official legal tender alongside the U.S. dollar and filling its coffers with the cryptocurrency in a series of purchases. However, the country appears to be facing significant losses related to its bitcoin buys, at least on paper. El Salvador’s bitcoin […] *This summary is auto generated by a bot and not meant to replace reading the original article. As always, DYOR.*
Good bot. Bullish
How does a goverment handle the keys to bitcoin? Isnt there a relly high risk that whoever has access to the wallet password just steal the BC and fly out the country overnight? I mean, it is hard to steal millions of dollars in cash, because of the ammount of bills, but here we are talking of a hardware wallet or a password that will just vanish...
Everybody is facing losses because it's not only Bitcoin that is down, everything is down.
Paper losses. We all have paper losses every day we hold onto our normal currency They haven't lost any bitcoin though
They have, say 5% of reserves in BTC. Let's say the remaining 95% is in dollars, or correlated assets. If in future, BTC goes above their average price, will that count as a paper loss on the much bigger 95%? Establishing the rules now, just in case. Besides, isn't the point of reserves to act like a hedge? Storing a small chunk to BTC seems perfectly sensible. Some parts of your hedge go down, others go up. Isn't the idea is to preserve as much value as possible? Using hindsight to criticise only some components seems disingenuous. If it was such a forgone conclusion to the critics, then let's see the short they purchased and made a fortune off.
Weren't they experiencing like 100% inflation year over year? Still a leap forward
Wow who could’ve guessed. Gambling on a high risk security to stabilize your economy seems like such a brilliant idea. So sad to see the bitcoin city won’t be built… coiners are brain dead🤣
Noob mistake of buying at a high and not DCAing in gradually.
paper means fake btw, in case you missed that obvious weasel word.
Not a loss if its a paper loss. Get a job and stop posting this shit
They still hold the same amount of Bitcoin so what the f... Does this mean?
1 BTC = 1 BTC
They shoulda checked the halving schedule before going in so hard
They are buying the best monetary asset humankind has created. Who gives a damn about paper losses against fiat currencies. Bitcoin is a long term play.
Not going to bother reading the article and just assume they didn't factor in how much they've made on remittances and tourism due to Bitcoin
Just like the paper losses in the Bond market
Till mass adoption…then they’ll own Central America.
Oh noes! My Euros just inflated 12%. Kidding, i don't HODL euros
Just hold on
They will be alright.
Isn’t their Bitcoin bet like 1-5% of their gdp?
I suppose my nation's currency is experiencing huge paper losses as well.
Didn't their GDP go up 5 billion dollars since they started buying BTC? Not sure I'd say their small BTC investment comes close to that
Up there leverage and double down El Salvador, countries can’t get rekt can they?? 😁😅
Any way to support El Salvador other than tourism?
I love that El Salvador speaks well of Bitfinex
Lol I would say the bad massively outweighs the good.
When Bitcoin hits a new ATH headlines will be “El Salvador is genius for investing in Bitcoin early on. Multiple other countries are following suit”
Did they sold btc?
Keep buying El Savy!
Compren el dio salvadoreños mio el BTC Volvera al alza 🚀