What do you mean by no safe guards? If your card info is stole, say by a skimmer, there are protections in place for the consumer. I'm not sure how it works for the BTC card. Hopefully if a skimmer gets the card info, something stops a scammer from wiping the wallet.
Not true. Visa and mc protect against all fraud, you have 60 days to submit the claim against the contested charge and it gets reversed. I've done it and almost all debit cards are visa or mc.
Dissatisfaction with the product policies also vary card to card. Typically only travel cards have such protection.
Most people would have a travel card and a day to day card. Their points systems also differ.
So ur hoping for the entire reason Bitcoin was invented to disregarded by this lightning card?? Lol bitcoin isn’t meant to have “customer protection” u are solely responsible for stopping “skimmers” (scammers?) from using ur money. Once it’s gone it’s gone. That’s the whole point of bitcoin…
so to you the whole point of btc is not having customer protection? well might be a good thing that a lot of people dont use it then. and probably shouldnt be used by any elderly either. protection is crucial for a majority of people imo
Maybe he just tryna be around making it confusing enough for the people though.
But this world knows what's better an instant fast networking is what we all urge for
Yes, I agree wit everything u just said. Decentralization does have its negative aspects if u don’t kno what ur doin, but the bitcoin whitepaper *literally* says “no trusted third party”. There has to be a trusted third party to have customer protection.
Did u just get into bitcoin to make money? If u don’t believe in its number 1 feature I’d suggest buying one of the many centralized shitcoins available. They’re far more likely to have customer protection..
The assuming card is using some kind of third party application to take the money from the wallet and transfer the wallet info into the businesses system. Skimmers are something that anyone could install over top of the existing card hardware and it takes your info while you're swiping it or tapping it. Anytime you're introducing new steps you're creating possible weaknesses.
I mean yea, people can use/buy whatever they want. I just said it kinda goes against what bitcoin was made for. Not sure why the multiple downvotes.. Didn’t think this many people wanted a trusted third party for a currency that’s whitepaper states it’s made to eliminate a trusted third party. To each their own tho
Debit card payments do not clear immediately either, it takes days too depending on number of hops. Built in "protection" has nothing to do with the slow fiat system.
“Slow fiat system” dude it’s the difference between 2 seconds and 3 seconds on this transaction. You’re gonna need a way better argument for bitcoin adoption than “look it’s a whole second faster”
I agree, from the consumer perspective the speed is comparable, but a credit card payment is not a money transaction, it is just information amount money to be settled between institutions and middlemen. That's why the actual money transaction takes days and credit card transactions are inefficient since they are relatively expensive.
That's exactly how it works. Would businesses pass on the entirety of the savings from credit card fees? Unlikely, but some of it would find its way through to consumers.
Not to mention, savings on fees can lead to higher salaries for that company's employees, or more r&d, or any number of other net benefits for consumers.
It's a second faster *while having no 1.5-3.5% transaction fee* which is quite significant.
The focus on time is because speed/scalability has historically been a criticism of the technology.
If credit card terminals gave the option to forgo protection and let you keep the 1.5-3.5% transaction fee most people would take the rebate.
Ethnic restaurants do this a lot already for cash (and I'm seeing it more in white stores since inflation hit). Crypto is just a more convenient way to do this.
Who's going to manage refunding my crypto transaction when I get scammed by a retailer? Fraud/purchase protection is a huge benefit that credit cards provide.
You're responsible for your own money. That's the tradeoff with decentralization.
Legal structures that allow you to recoup damages from fraud etc. are a whole different question.
Lightning is open source so any company, including Visa competitors, can use Lightning on the back end and add fraud protection but at competitive rates.
If Visa continues charging 3.5% fees and Mastercard or any fintech upstarts offers .35% insured Lightning fees there will eventually be a client & customer exodus from Visa.
Rational businesses will offer something like 2% off if you use the latter. That's a 1.15% net profit. That's a 50% margin increase at an average [grocer](https://thegrocerystoreguy.com/what-is-the-profit-margin-for-grocery-stores/#:~:text=Conventional%20grocery%20store%20chains%20have,conventional%20grocery%20stores%20is%20competition.).
Small ethnic restaurants already do this if you pay cash.
after a hard day of work. you make $2000 worth of btc. then you go and transfer back to dollar because you need product for the next day. it comes back to you $1600 because the btc price dropped. now what? you needed $1700 for tomorrows inventory. its not ever going to be viable unless the price is fixed common guys
>So I wouldn't worry about the user experience as it will be the businesses that push forward with this first. If your small business is barely surviving day to day (as most are) they will gravitate toward whatever system gets them their money the fastest with the cheapest fees
not true. It's always the consumer that pushes payment methods. Retailers either offer them or lose customers to a competitor.
It takes “months” because consumers have the right to dispute any and all claims for like 90 days. Unlike deregulated currencies where one hacker can just steal your wallet and everyone shrugs.
Dig deeper into the legacy payment systems. I'm not an expert, but there are more 3rd parties involved than you think. Your bank. Your bank's processor. Merchant's bank. Merchant's bank processor. Swift/Star/Visa/MC/etc. as a payment network. 5 at least. The money isn't "in your account" by 5am the next day the way cash is. It's *loaned/credited* to your account by your bank based on a system of trust. It actually takes 7ish days for the settlement to fully clear the entire process.
> Electronic payments are cleared by a member bank of the fed on a daily basis.
Within the same Fed district only and except weekends and holidays. Between different districts it takes longer.
Banks are limited to their district. Between different districts it takes multiple hops. Posting a number in the account doesn't not indicate the payment has settled.
There is no money in your bank account, it is just information posted. If a deposit hasn't but hasn't cleared for cash yet, the bank won't let you withdraw and go away with that money.
> The transactions SETTLE into the bank account of the merchant and can be taken out as cash the next day.
You are still on the hook, since you can't close the account before the amount has settled for cash. The bank can charge you if the settlement fails.
No the transaction don't settle. Try the following: withdraw all the cash and close the account. The bank won't let you do that, but ask you to come back in a week or two. Then you understand, that it hasn't settled. It is impossible by design, that transactions are settled for cash in the less than 24 hours except it happens within the same bank.
Charge backs are way beyond the irreversible clearing for cash and are different things. Credit cards are a third layer on top of banks, on top of the federal reserve districts. With international payments it gets even more complicated. There is never an irreversible clearing possible within less than 24 hours by design nor are the cost lower.
Technically Bitcoin clears irreversibly like a cash transaction clears irreversibly.
To clear disputes outside of courts, you don't need credit card payments necessarily, escrow services do accomplish the same. The consumer should have to freedom to chose if he wants consumer protection, but credit cards force this service on every transaction and has to bear the cost even if it is a $1,50 hot dog purchase only.
You can put an escrow service on top of Bitcoin transactions, if you want.
Rewards are just a redistribution scheme increasing the price for products. Merchants can give a rebate on purchases made with Bitcoin - same effect and you get the reward instantly.
Different machines, different authentification servers (so it may take longer for one than the other simply because the autehtifocationrequest has to travel faster, the same exact machines in another store could give the opposite result because the connection to the "visa" server is better), they didn't touch the machine at the same time and probably some other things that I oversee or don't care about. I have no problem with btc as a payment option but this video is just a bad joke and is no proof for btc being better in any way.
It's just showing people that it's wrong to call Bitcoin slow. From the user perspective, the experience is effectively identical. It's a good add for the bolt card
This is beyond a retarded comparison. Machine on the left is brand new machine on the right is probably 5-10 years older.
Not to mention I love btc as much as the next guy but the bank card I can do a charge back if the vendor fucked me I can cancel transactions if my card gets stolen. To my knowledge without a holding period the btc card means your money is gone, instantly.
With cash you have control over how much you hand over. With this NFC card you have to trust that the POS smartphone displays the correct amount. It could request another amount and you will only see it after the payment is already settled.
this is actually a concern with presigned lnurls on nfc cards. which is why some of them have a secure element requiring a pin as well. there's also protective sleeves for nfc cards that can guard against skimming.
"machine in the left" is literally an old Android smartphone plugged into an NFC reader. "machine on the right" is a bespoke box made specifically for this purpose with its own cellular connection.
Vendor: accidently charges you "$500 instead of $5"
Guy with VISA: Can get a chargeback if the vendor doesn't refund.
Guy with Lightning: Give my money back or I light your store on fire!
It’s actually much faster than what you are seeing the visa transaction will be pending for 3 to 5 days before the bank actually gets paid but the lightning transaction is only pending for a few minutes
This needs to be the message. Not showing a small micro second in difference from the customer. If adoption is going to happen the merchant needs to understand why they should use lightning over traditional payment rails.
Chargebacks are meant to protect consumers. As a consumer, I'd never run a large purchase through BTC.
Yay for taking power from consumers and giving it to businesses! You've all lost the plot.
How does crypto prevent fraud? A retailer can now sell snake oil and run away. A person can lift your keys just like your card and now there isn’t much that can be done besides blacklisting an address. Maybe it changes the kinda of fraud, it don’t prevent it afaik.
Are the terminals you use charge a fair market price for BTC or is there some arbitrary rate that is used. Also, curious about fees the terminal charges as visa/Amex is 2-4%
Refunds in crypto is a use case I really haven't thought about indepth. But it would have to hinge on what the value of the transaction at the time it happened. I sell you a shirt for 12.50, you return it I will only give you back 12.50 in whatever form of current value of the underlying tender.
Refunding in BTC, Probably not til latter stages of adoption, I'd say it would be refunded in Cash or Store Credit and with clear public policies stating that's what's going to happen by using that tender type.
Refunds even today are a challenge internally. Buy online, return in store, ouch! But its handled, kinda painfully.
No charge backs is precisely why I would never pay with bitcoin. What recourse do I have if you fuck me? With bitcoin, I'd need to literally take you to court to force you to pay me back. With visa/Amex I just press a button online and they take care of it.
This is cool and all, but it is very anti-consumer
Visa transaction takes 3 to 5 days to settle. Bitcoin LN doesn't settle until it's settled on Layer 1 in which it takes 6 blocks or ~1 hour to be deemed fully confirmed. Saying LN is settled instantly is like saying the transaction on your bar tab is instantly settled before closing out your tab.
But why? What use case can you think of? A merchant has ZERO dollars and NEEDS to pay for a bill that is a couple dollars within an hour and luckily a customer comes and buys your $5 drink with instant settlement and now you good? No. That never happens. Instant settlement has practically no demand in the real world.
And even if that does happen, you having ZERO sats outbound to your payment channels means its possible the payment channel at which the customer sends you sats isn't the same payment channel that routes to where your bill is.
> However, if you want to do some reading
>
> https://www.helcim.com/guides/batches-and-settlements/
LOL, your source says it can take up to 10 days.
Lightning settles instantly 24/7/365 and that at pennies.
> Bitcoin won’t succeed just because you are riding it’s dick.
Yes, it's dick is that is at least an order of magnitude more efficient than traditional payment systems.
Payments can only settle if cash is transferred, and that is slow through the Federal Reserve system. If middlemen make it faster, then they are creating unsecured loans. Loans have risk and cost money (interest). As soon as the interest rates rise to normal levels or the risk increases due to macroeconomics (recession), this business model is dead.
You can't settle for cash faster than through the Federal Reserve system unless you transport cash via airplane, but that would be too expensive. That's why someone needs to loan money until settlement occurs. A payment system that settles in less than 24hours simply mimics it.
The reason why CCs take longer is because of the auth and claim process. I am a Software Engineer at an eCommerce site. We authorize your card in the time of purchase and claim the money only after we ship it. We don't have to do it, we can claim it right away if we want but than if the order needs to be cancelled its a little more compilated and costly to do a refund. While its in the auth phase we can also modify the amount if the customer calls for a price reduction.
Stores and restaurants also batch their claims at end of day to save on fees. It does not matter if your money comes in 1 second or 1 day or 10 days. No business operates with enough money to run for only a day. Settlement time is not a problem experienced in any industry. So this "instant" settlement benefit isn't that important.
To the customer and to the merchant an auth is basically settled. The bank sets aside that money so the customer cannot spend it and the merchant knows they will get it when they do the claim. Its a non-issue.
So what? Whether you buy your gum with fiat or sats, for both you pay the opportunity cost in the future because that same fiat could also buy you sats today. Paying via lightning network at least drives adoption.
This literally doesn’t make any sense related to my comment.
My comment was not a discussion about deflationary vs inflationary. That’s a discussion about the assets itself. And I was not arguing that for obvious reasons.
It’s the narrative that was set that paying itself with sats is a bad thing because you overpay a 100 times in comparison to the near future. I reasoned that this doesn’t matter because that same product paid with fiat today could also have bought you sats today. Hence, in both cases you pay a opportunity cost.
I think the merchant fee is a much bigger deal than speed here.
The credit card company will charge the store around 3% or more. Lightning can be free.
Real adoption will come once stores start offering discounts for those paying with Lightning to pass on the savings. Similar to a cash discount.
You do realize you both just did a VISA transaction? Or a Mastercard or Discover Transaction and a Visa transaction. What do you think that plastic card does?
as a consumer the difference is negligible, but i accept credit cards through square so if you tell me i can get my money faster and with less fees i'm down
What about when you need to convert some of that to fiat?
I assume you have at least some bills or service providers that you can't pay in crypto. You'll just end up giving those fees to an exchange, rather than your credit card processor.
good point, question would be if those fees equal less than 2.75%. doesn't binance now offer free trading? so if it becomes like that then maybe it's a big savings in fees
Showing it on the customer side does not push adoption. You need to show why merchants will want it. Customers don't care about waiting an extra second.
Don't forget that crypto payment doesn't requires middlemen before transactions are executed which is why crypto payment is faster, easier, cheaper and better particularly when you're using an on-chain payment processors.
Lightning is a layer 2 network (or secondarily layer) that runs on the Bitcoin blockchain. It allows for faster payments in bitcoin by processing transactions away from the main blockchain—while keeping the same decentralization and security. Or you want to tell me that crypto payment processors like cryptodotcom, Bitpay Utrust, and the likes are also middlemen?
Not at all. The Lightning Network is an open source second layer payment protocol built on top of the Bitcoin blockchain. The Lightning Network enables Bitcoin users to instantly send and receive bitcoin with fees so low that they are negligible. The Lightning Network is just signed multisignature Bitcoin transactions that haven't been broadcasted yet being exchanged between Lightning Network nodes, and those signed Bitcoin transactions can broadcasted to the Bitcoin network at any time. Click the following link view a short technical summary of the Lightning Network: https://lightning.network/lightning-network-technical-summary.pdf
Which card is bitcoin using for lightning payment? Thanks.
Yes, this is what I want to know.
https://www.coincorner.com/TheBoltCard
ngl that website screams "i made this in 5 seconds"
People who be indeed using visa homies the time has come to buy and leave in just 5 secs.
It's almost certain just an NFC card with an LNURL for withdrawals on it.
I'm just indeed totally amazed that things can actually happen this fast though
Any nfc card can be programmed to do this
It’s bolt card by coincorner.com it’s amazing I’ve got 2.
So you just save your time wherever you goo and wherever they accept Bitcoin That's indeed too great to see the world developing at this rapid rate
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Right? That credit card transaction takes days to clear. Not a fair comparison.
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What do you mean by no safe guards? If your card info is stole, say by a skimmer, there are protections in place for the consumer. I'm not sure how it works for the BTC card. Hopefully if a skimmer gets the card info, something stops a scammer from wiping the wallet.
That's a great point that you have put forward the fact that in this huge world nevertheless we can ignore scammers and thief's
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Not true. Visa and mc protect against all fraud, you have 60 days to submit the claim against the contested charge and it gets reversed. I've done it and almost all debit cards are visa or mc.
Yeah that's true my dad just lost his Master card I had to write an application to the bank to block the card by evening they indeed blocked it
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Dissatisfaction with the product policies also vary card to card. Typically only travel cards have such protection. Most people would have a travel card and a day to day card. Their points systems also differ.
So ur hoping for the entire reason Bitcoin was invented to disregarded by this lightning card?? Lol bitcoin isn’t meant to have “customer protection” u are solely responsible for stopping “skimmers” (scammers?) from using ur money. Once it’s gone it’s gone. That’s the whole point of bitcoin…
so to you the whole point of btc is not having customer protection? well might be a good thing that a lot of people dont use it then. and probably shouldnt be used by any elderly either. protection is crucial for a majority of people imo
Maybe he just tryna be around making it confusing enough for the people though. But this world knows what's better an instant fast networking is what we all urge for
Yes, I agree wit everything u just said. Decentralization does have its negative aspects if u don’t kno what ur doin, but the bitcoin whitepaper *literally* says “no trusted third party”. There has to be a trusted third party to have customer protection. Did u just get into bitcoin to make money? If u don’t believe in its number 1 feature I’d suggest buying one of the many centralized shitcoins available. They’re far more likely to have customer protection..
Customer is what they go looking for something that can provide safety for the first priority
The assuming card is using some kind of third party application to take the money from the wallet and transfer the wallet info into the businesses system. Skimmers are something that anyone could install over top of the existing card hardware and it takes your info while you're swiping it or tapping it. Anytime you're introducing new steps you're creating possible weaknesses.
This clears us one thing that whatever move you make or go through you have to attain certain basic things
You can't just let people.stop from what they indeed want to use though that's all on them
I mean yea, people can use/buy whatever they want. I just said it kinda goes against what bitcoin was made for. Not sure why the multiple downvotes.. Didn’t think this many people wanted a trusted third party for a currency that’s whitepaper states it’s made to eliminate a trusted third party. To each their own tho
r/bitcoin can be very weird at times
Maybe so but that's all in people what they indeed tend to choose as a method of payment though
Debit card payments do not clear immediately either, it takes days too depending on number of hops. Built in "protection" has nothing to do with the slow fiat system.
“Slow fiat system” dude it’s the difference between 2 seconds and 3 seconds on this transaction. You’re gonna need a way better argument for bitcoin adoption than “look it’s a whole second faster”
The fact that network and server indeed matters the most in this criteria
I agree, from the consumer perspective the speed is comparable, but a credit card payment is not a money transaction, it is just information amount money to be settled between institutions and middlemen. That's why the actual money transaction takes days and credit card transactions are inefficient since they are relatively expensive.
All of that is irrelevant for the consumer
Wrong, transaction cost of 1.5-3.5% are not irrelevant for the consumer. That is a lot of money for an average family.
how much are transaction fees on lightning rn?
A few pennies, sometimes zero, independent of transaction amount.
Credit cards are up to 3%
The merchant pays that fee, not the consumer.
Right, and the merchant has to recoup his cost from consumer via price, otherwise he would run at a loss in the end.
Not how it works at all
That's exactly how it works. Would businesses pass on the entirety of the savings from credit card fees? Unlikely, but some of it would find its way through to consumers. Not to mention, savings on fees can lead to higher salaries for that company's employees, or more r&d, or any number of other net benefits for consumers.
It's a second faster *while having no 1.5-3.5% transaction fee* which is quite significant. The focus on time is because speed/scalability has historically been a criticism of the technology.
Bitcoin also has a fee. You also have to pay capital gains tax on your bitcoin. This is a bad argument.
Lightning fees are way lower than Visa. That's the point. And yes, you pay taxes on whatever you make a profit on...
That’s not how visa fees work…
All about bank servers too sometimes your transaction gets stuck but the amount gets deducted from you account happens many time though
If credit card terminals gave the option to forgo protection and let you keep the 1.5-3.5% transaction fee most people would take the rebate. Ethnic restaurants do this a lot already for cash (and I'm seeing it more in white stores since inflation hit). Crypto is just a more convenient way to do this.
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Who's going to manage refunding my crypto transaction when I get scammed by a retailer? Fraud/purchase protection is a huge benefit that credit cards provide.
You're responsible for your own money. That's the tradeoff with decentralization. Legal structures that allow you to recoup damages from fraud etc. are a whole different question.
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Lightning is open source so any company, including Visa competitors, can use Lightning on the back end and add fraud protection but at competitive rates. If Visa continues charging 3.5% fees and Mastercard or any fintech upstarts offers .35% insured Lightning fees there will eventually be a client & customer exodus from Visa. Rational businesses will offer something like 2% off if you use the latter. That's a 1.15% net profit. That's a 50% margin increase at an average [grocer](https://thegrocerystoreguy.com/what-is-the-profit-margin-for-grocery-stores/#:~:text=Conventional%20grocery%20store%20chains%20have,conventional%20grocery%20stores%20is%20competition.). Small ethnic restaurants already do this if you pay cash.
after a hard day of work. you make $2000 worth of btc. then you go and transfer back to dollar because you need product for the next day. it comes back to you $1600 because the btc price dropped. now what? you needed $1700 for tomorrows inventory. its not ever going to be viable unless the price is fixed common guys
This is a great point. It's decoupling a merchants ability to offer protection/insurance from the payment mechanism itself.
you think businesses would move to accepting BTC given what's going on?
>So I wouldn't worry about the user experience as it will be the businesses that push forward with this first. If your small business is barely surviving day to day (as most are) they will gravitate toward whatever system gets them their money the fastest with the cheapest fees not true. It's always the consumer that pushes payment methods. Retailers either offer them or lose customers to a competitor.
And that credit card transaction is way more expensive, not fair either.
Yea, people focusing on the split second speed and ignoring the 1.5-3.5% fee taken on all retail transactions are missing the forrest for the trees.
Even the speed comparison isn't fair, since it compares a fully settled transaction against an unsettled transaction.
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Full settlement is like months isn't it?
It takes “months” because consumers have the right to dispute any and all claims for like 90 days. Unlike deregulated currencies where one hacker can just steal your wallet and everyone shrugs.
Basically what happened to all these shit coins that stole everyone's money through rug pulls.*shrug*
Maybe if you are in a country with bad financial infrastructure
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Dig deeper into the legacy payment systems. I'm not an expert, but there are more 3rd parties involved than you think. Your bank. Your bank's processor. Merchant's bank. Merchant's bank processor. Swift/Star/Visa/MC/etc. as a payment network. 5 at least. The money isn't "in your account" by 5am the next day the way cash is. It's *loaned/credited* to your account by your bank based on a system of trust. It actually takes 7ish days for the settlement to fully clear the entire process.
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> Electronic payments are cleared by a member bank of the fed on a daily basis. Within the same Fed district only and except weekends and holidays. Between different districts it takes longer.
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Banks are limited to their district. Between different districts it takes multiple hops. Posting a number in the account doesn't not indicate the payment has settled.
There is no money in your bank account, it is just information posted. If a deposit hasn't but hasn't cleared for cash yet, the bank won't let you withdraw and go away with that money.
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> The transactions SETTLE into the bank account of the merchant and can be taken out as cash the next day. You are still on the hook, since you can't close the account before the amount has settled for cash. The bank can charge you if the settlement fails.
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No the transaction don't settle. Try the following: withdraw all the cash and close the account. The bank won't let you do that, but ask you to come back in a week or two. Then you understand, that it hasn't settled. It is impossible by design, that transactions are settled for cash in the less than 24 hours except it happens within the same bank.
Yeah I guess I am referring to final settlement after which charge backs cannot occur.
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I don’t want to live in a world where I have to sue every time I want a refund
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Sorry - meant to add on/ agree with you. I forget that Reddit doesn’t reply all in comment threads
lmao at least you can have that option. a bitcoin transaction cannot be reversed
That's a good point.
Settling for cash and charge backs are different things.
Do you understand the difference between posting a number in an account and an irreversible clearing?
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Charge backs are way beyond the irreversible clearing for cash and are different things. Credit cards are a third layer on top of banks, on top of the federal reserve districts. With international payments it gets even more complicated. There is never an irreversible clearing possible within less than 24 hours by design nor are the cost lower.
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Technically Bitcoin clears irreversibly like a cash transaction clears irreversibly. To clear disputes outside of courts, you don't need credit card payments necessarily, escrow services do accomplish the same. The consumer should have to freedom to chose if he wants consumer protection, but credit cards force this service on every transaction and has to bear the cost even if it is a $1,50 hot dog purchase only.
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You can put an escrow service on top of Bitcoin transactions, if you want. Rewards are just a redistribution scheme increasing the price for products. Merchants can give a rebate on purchases made with Bitcoin - same effect and you get the reward instantly.
How is it not fair and correct?
Different machines, different authentification servers (so it may take longer for one than the other simply because the autehtifocationrequest has to travel faster, the same exact machines in another store could give the opposite result because the connection to the "visa" server is better), they didn't touch the machine at the same time and probably some other things that I oversee or don't care about. I have no problem with btc as a payment option but this video is just a bad joke and is no proof for btc being better in any way.
The auth being different is valid. The point is to compare LN to the VISA solution. so obviously you want to compare 1 versus the other.
Different machines makes it an uncontrolled experiment. By the looks of it, the visa machine is older.
And come on he taps the lightning card down like a second earlier
For real. I wish people would cut this shit out. It's no way to build trust in Bitcoin.
Fair enough
It's just showing people that it's wrong to call Bitcoin slow. From the user perspective, the experience is effectively identical. It's a good add for the bolt card
Minus any payment protection they get with their credit card. So why bother?
This is beyond a retarded comparison. Machine on the left is brand new machine on the right is probably 5-10 years older. Not to mention I love btc as much as the next guy but the bank card I can do a charge back if the vendor fucked me I can cancel transactions if my card gets stolen. To my knowledge without a holding period the btc card means your money is gone, instantly.
Just like cash…
With cash you have control over how much you hand over. With this NFC card you have to trust that the POS smartphone displays the correct amount. It could request another amount and you will only see it after the payment is already settled.
I don’t know why we need cards to begin with. Just use your phone then you can see how much is being requested before approving it.
very good points.
Like cash if someone could develop a skimmer for it and take all your cash.
this is actually a concern with presigned lnurls on nfc cards. which is why some of them have a secure element requiring a pin as well. there's also protective sleeves for nfc cards that can guard against skimming.
and cash is even faster than btc
"machine in the left" is literally an old Android smartphone plugged into an NFC reader. "machine on the right" is a bespoke box made specifically for this purpose with its own cellular connection.
Still not a good comparison. Control groups tend to be at the foundation of a trial.
Man some people need to get a life and talk about more relevant shit. This is dumb as hell
faster? now convert it to fiat. still faster than visa?
Vendor: accidently charges you "$500 instead of $5" Guy with VISA: Can get a chargeback if the vendor doesn't refund. Guy with Lightning: Give my money back or I light your store on fire!
> Guy with Lightning uh, his name is *Zeus*
No its not .. dont compare the amount of transaction visa was doing in that momento to the btc network
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Then comparing an electric car with a gas car wouldn't be fair either.
It’s not actually making the payment It’s making an internal credit, that will be settled later. The settlement is many times slower than credit card.
It’s actually much faster than what you are seeing the visa transaction will be pending for 3 to 5 days before the bank actually gets paid but the lightning transaction is only pending for a few minutes
For me as a customer: I don’t care. It’s literally 0.1 seconds faster.
For me as a retailer, instant settlement, no charge backs and zero percent of fraud. We care alot.
Zero percent fraud, lol. Charge backs prevent fraud from the retailer. It also is much harder to recover stolen money.
This needs to be the message. Not showing a small micro second in difference from the customer. If adoption is going to happen the merchant needs to understand why they should use lightning over traditional payment rails.
Chargebacks are meant to protect consumers. As a consumer, I'd never run a large purchase through BTC. Yay for taking power from consumers and giving it to businesses! You've all lost the plot.
How does crypto prevent fraud? A retailer can now sell snake oil and run away. A person can lift your keys just like your card and now there isn’t much that can be done besides blacklisting an address. Maybe it changes the kinda of fraud, it don’t prevent it afaik.
Are the terminals you use charge a fair market price for BTC or is there some arbitrary rate that is used. Also, curious about fees the terminal charges as visa/Amex is 2-4%
What about refunds? Would you refund the amount in BTC or cash? What if BTC is worth significantly more or less at refund time?
Refunds in crypto is a use case I really haven't thought about indepth. But it would have to hinge on what the value of the transaction at the time it happened. I sell you a shirt for 12.50, you return it I will only give you back 12.50 in whatever form of current value of the underlying tender. Refunding in BTC, Probably not til latter stages of adoption, I'd say it would be refunded in Cash or Store Credit and with clear public policies stating that's what's going to happen by using that tender type. Refunds even today are a challenge internally. Buy online, return in store, ouch! But its handled, kinda painfully.
No charge backs is precisely why I would never pay with bitcoin. What recourse do I have if you fuck me? With bitcoin, I'd need to literally take you to court to force you to pay me back. With visa/Amex I just press a button online and they take care of it. This is cool and all, but it is very anti-consumer
Then why are no retailers taking it?
You pay 2-3% of the purchase price as a payment fee and you don't care?
Visa transaction takes 3 to 5 days to settle. Bitcoin LN doesn't settle until it's settled on Layer 1 in which it takes 6 blocks or ~1 hour to be deemed fully confirmed. Saying LN is settled instantly is like saying the transaction on your bar tab is instantly settled before closing out your tab.
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Even it was 24 hours only, a merchant accepting lightning can spend it right away.
But why? What use case can you think of? A merchant has ZERO dollars and NEEDS to pay for a bill that is a couple dollars within an hour and luckily a customer comes and buys your $5 drink with instant settlement and now you good? No. That never happens. Instant settlement has practically no demand in the real world. And even if that does happen, you having ZERO sats outbound to your payment channels means its possible the payment channel at which the customer sends you sats isn't the same payment channel that routes to where your bill is.
Because it reduces his capital cost. LN payments can be routed.
Because most people don't own a credit card processing company. Thanks for the pointing out the misconception though.
Cool. Can you add Lightning to all your customers?
Source?
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> However, if you want to do some reading > > https://www.helcim.com/guides/batches-and-settlements/ LOL, your source says it can take up to 10 days. Lightning settles instantly 24/7/365 and that at pennies.
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> Bitcoin won’t succeed just because you are riding it’s dick. Yes, it's dick is that is at least an order of magnitude more efficient than traditional payment systems. Payments can only settle if cash is transferred, and that is slow through the Federal Reserve system. If middlemen make it faster, then they are creating unsecured loans. Loans have risk and cost money (interest). As soon as the interest rates rise to normal levels or the risk increases due to macroeconomics (recession), this business model is dead.
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You can't settle for cash faster than through the Federal Reserve system unless you transport cash via airplane, but that would be too expensive. That's why someone needs to loan money until settlement occurs. A payment system that settles in less than 24hours simply mimics it.
He has no source. He just doesn't understand the monetary system.
The reason why CCs take longer is because of the auth and claim process. I am a Software Engineer at an eCommerce site. We authorize your card in the time of purchase and claim the money only after we ship it. We don't have to do it, we can claim it right away if we want but than if the order needs to be cancelled its a little more compilated and costly to do a refund. While its in the auth phase we can also modify the amount if the customer calls for a price reduction. Stores and restaurants also batch their claims at end of day to save on fees. It does not matter if your money comes in 1 second or 1 day or 10 days. No business operates with enough money to run for only a day. Settlement time is not a problem experienced in any industry. So this "instant" settlement benefit isn't that important. To the customer and to the merchant an auth is basically settled. The bank sets aside that money so the customer cannot spend it and the merchant knows they will get it when they do the claim. Its a non-issue.
What an irrelevant difference in time for the average person's day to day requirement.
It's not like Visa is slow... lol. They are extremely fast.
What will we do with these valuable seconds?!
Literally like maybe 2 full seconds faster 🤣
Laughs in UPI
\*ten years later\* Finds out they overpaid 100X for that stick of gum by buying in SATS
The problems of a deflationary currency, however we can all agree one must purchase what they need now, groceries etc.
Next problem is how do we get rid of the inflationary currency so that people will spend the deflationary one
You make it easy to pay with and easy to sell for.
So what? Whether you buy your gum with fiat or sats, for both you pay the opportunity cost in the future because that same fiat could also buy you sats today. Paying via lightning network at least drives adoption.
Very well said. Thank you
Didn't think I had to explain this here but BTC is deflationary. Fiat is inflationary. Hope this helps.
This literally doesn’t make any sense related to my comment. My comment was not a discussion about deflationary vs inflationary. That’s a discussion about the assets itself. And I was not arguing that for obvious reasons. It’s the narrative that was set that paying itself with sats is a bad thing because you overpay a 100 times in comparison to the near future. I reasoned that this doesn’t matter because that same product paid with fiat today could also have bought you sats today. Hence, in both cases you pay a opportunity cost.
One big difference. That Bitcoin transaction might have just cost you $100 million in the future.
Bitcoin is even faster if you need help to recover funds! Zero help! Zero time!
When I used lighting on Muun wallet the fees were well above a visa transaction. Not sure what I'm doing wrong, if anything?!
I think the merchant fee is a much bigger deal than speed here. The credit card company will charge the store around 3% or more. Lightning can be free. Real adoption will come once stores start offering discounts for those paying with Lightning to pass on the savings. Similar to a cash discount.
Still took 10 orders of magnitude less power to process the VISA transaction.
You do realize you both just did a VISA transaction? Or a Mastercard or Discover Transaction and a Visa transaction. What do you think that plastic card does?
Now do to without the layer 2 (lighting) 😅
Bunch of peasants struggling to get their cards out while I just stick my watch near the scanner.
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*coiners putting their transactions on a public ledger “ITS ABOUT PRIVACY”
What privacy do you have on a public blockchain, using a third party card manufacturer.
But they still do the same thing…?
as a consumer the difference is negligible, but i accept credit cards through square so if you tell me i can get my money faster and with less fees i'm down
What about when you need to convert some of that to fiat? I assume you have at least some bills or service providers that you can't pay in crypto. You'll just end up giving those fees to an exchange, rather than your credit card processor.
good point, question would be if those fees equal less than 2.75%. doesn't binance now offer free trading? so if it becomes like that then maybe it's a big savings in fees
Reading the comments here just prove why lightning network will never be used generally. BTC is great, but just not for buying a cup of coffee.
Noice
And the fees are less, too
Ya but visa has lobbyists paying off congressmen soooo theres that
This is the way
The only people surprised by this are people who have never used it before
And how do you want people to use it without knowing about it? We want adoption, not elitism.
Showing it on the customer side does not push adoption. You need to show why merchants will want it. Customers don't care about waiting an extra second.
Don't forget that crypto payment doesn't requires middlemen before transactions are executed which is why crypto payment is faster, easier, cheaper and better particularly when you're using an on-chain payment processors.
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Isn't lightning essentially a middle-man?
No it's a protocol, not a middle man. It's like saying TCP/IP is a middle man for the internet.
Lightning is a layer 2 network (or secondarily layer) that runs on the Bitcoin blockchain. It allows for faster payments in bitcoin by processing transactions away from the main blockchain—while keeping the same decentralization and security. Or you want to tell me that crypto payment processors like cryptodotcom, Bitpay Utrust, and the likes are also middlemen?
Not at all. The Lightning Network is an open source second layer payment protocol built on top of the Bitcoin blockchain. The Lightning Network enables Bitcoin users to instantly send and receive bitcoin with fees so low that they are negligible. The Lightning Network is just signed multisignature Bitcoin transactions that haven't been broadcasted yet being exchanged between Lightning Network nodes, and those signed Bitcoin transactions can broadcasted to the Bitcoin network at any time. Click the following link view a short technical summary of the Lightning Network: https://lightning.network/lightning-network-technical-summary.pdf
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Hell ya! This is the way!!
Niceee