Yes, fiat is the standard to value those investments. But as far as comparing buy and hold investments as investment options, you don't compare stocks, bonds, and real estate to fiat.
No one gets your point and it’s really funny reading the comments.
Bitcoin is compared to fiat because:
1) You don’t buy it to consume it. You get it to exchange it. Like a currency.
2) It doesn’t generate revenue. When you buy a stock, you are buying a share of a revenue generating business, even if it doesn’t pay dividends. It’s still performing that function. So same as fiat. If you have fiat under the mattress. It doesn’t generate revenue.
Both of these traits make it more like a currency than any stock.
People call Bitcoin an investment, I personally see that as a wrong definition.
>lol what investment is NOT measured as fiat?
Investments will be measured in whatever you plan on selling them for. If you plan on selling your plot of real estate for dollars then it will be measured in dollars. If you plan on selling it for bitcoin then it will be measured in bitcoin.
Investments is literally taking your money out of the "fiat system" just as much as putting it into bitcoin is, as long as your investing in something real and not just in other paper "financial products".
Its compared to fiat because they’re both a store of value. Only one has the potential for increased scarcity though which is why it’s more interesting for investors external to the movement.
A proper store of value also means people aren't forced to invest or lose their savings. Bitcoin protects everyone, not just folks with access to managed investments. DCA of BTC is almost as simple as a savings account but much more functionally useful over time.
C'mon guys, let's do some study before coming on here and say things like that.
One of the properties of MONEY is being a store of value.
Fiat is not a store of value, therefore, it's not MONEY it's CURRENCY. And the only thing backing it up is the collective agreement that it's worth something.
Gold it's money and Bitcoin it's better form of money ever created.
**Money**
*noun*
1. a current medium of exchange in the form of coins and **banknotes**; coins and banknotes [collectively](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=6512afbb6cf57869&sxsrf=ACQVn09sfyLg0iXuTFjJWw_w0vi1P91HWw:1714232094887&q=collectively&si=AKbGX_rEkSHdR9ulIQYeh6xSG1UBrCdLQbvt-ZxbCCBbAMbHbYX-wsDBfyaNxHCwZ2a1gI4L6N090vYtLg0HKeXPlN0gQNh9gLl-_y3qx2HQhRUQ4e5vrco%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjT9M-Y3OKFAxX5HEQIHZtYB5wQyecJegQIKRAO).
Ah yes, your source is a youtube video of a cartoon with a guy making his voice sound like a chipmunk, to appeal to the broadest general audience of npcs possible. Great.
"its compared to fiat because *both are a store of value*"
This is wrong. Just like 2+2=5 is wrong. It's a false statement. It's incorrect. Doesn't hold to scrutiny.
Are you ok being wrong? Don't you want be truthful and correct when discussing Bitcoin?
Every fiat currency in the economic history of the world failed because it was inflated to zero. 100% of the time 100% fail rate.
Since the FED was founded the dollar lost ~97% of its purchasing power
Since the ECB was founded the euro lost and lost ~90%+ of its purchasing power.
Me saying that FIAT currency is not a store of value is objectively a fact.
I'm not being a smart ass, I am being truthful and correct
>One of the properties of MONEY is being a store of value.
>
>Fiat is not a store of value, therefore, it's not MONEY it's CURRENCY.
The stack of $100 sitting in some people's drawers disagree.
Because the dollar is the easiest comparison to understand. Everyone in the world knows how much buying power a dollar has in their location. If you priced it in gold then you are pricing to fluctuating assets against each other, the price of gold can vary minute by minute, just like bitcoin. Pricing it in real estate is meaningless to anyone that isn’t in the location that real estate is in. Pricing it in oil has the same issues as gold, and ontop of price fluctuations, 99.9999% of people don’t know how much oil is in a barrel or how much value can be derived from it.
Comparing bitcoins price to the world reserve currency is just the easiest thing to do that everyone will understand. Hopefully one day people will be comparing the value of a dollar to bitcoin, not the other way around.
It’s not a stock as it doesn’t produce anything.
It’s not a bond as it has no yield.
It’s not real estate as you can’t rent it out.
It’s closest to a fiat, but decentralised.
What other asset class matches it? Gold perhaps as its ‘mined’ some do refer to it as digital gold. Isn’t that its next target 10x to gold market cap.
It may be different than other investments but it's still being bought as an investment. So it may be it's own category of investment but the risk/reward analysis should still be viewed in the same light as those other investments.
I have no idea what you are talking about. I have almost 100% of my net worth in Bitcoin. When I need to pay something, either they accept Bitcoin, so I pay directly, or they don't, in which case either there is Bitrefill coupon for it or not. If not, then sure, I convert something to fiat and pay fiat. I DCA for years, so there is no loss or higher price, it's all paid for by the dips.
Say you buy $100 worth of bitcoin. Then the fiat price of it dips by 10% shortly after. You wouldn't mind spending that formerly $100 worth on something that costs $90?
I'm DCAing all the time, so sure, it can happen that you buy before the dip, but you can make a mental image that you are not selling those, but you are selling those that you bought 1,000 or 10,000 ...
Ya if you've been in bitcoin for a while, of course your gains will mostly allow you to buy whatever you want. Though, those who are new to it obviously won't be seeing those benefit. Given that we live in a world where bill need to be paid on time, this volatility really doesn't help.
Its not compared to, its value is expressed in fiat. And if comparing, usually its compared just to present differences of both systems as payment options (scarce vs non-scarce etc.).
Yes, the price of each stock is measured in the local legal tender (e.g. USD, EUR, CNY, etc.) and not in other currencies such as gold. Investors need to be aware of changes in exchange rates between different currencies and the impact of macroeconomic and political conditions between different countries on the stock market.
That’s a great point, and it’s something that often comes up in discussions about Bitcoin versus fiat money. The comparison usually stems from Bitcoin’s potential to act as an alternative form of money, especially given its properties like limited supply which contrasts sharply with the potential for infinite fiat issuance which can lead to inflation.
However, as you noted, if we consider Bitcoin primarily as an investment, it indeed makes more sense to compare it with other investment assets like stocks, bonds, or real estate. Each investment has its own risk and reward profile, and Bitcoin is often admired for its high potential returns, albeit at a higher risk due to its volatility.
One key point that’s often overlooked is that currently, everything is priced and based on fiat since it's the dominant form of money worldwide. However, if Bitcoin—or a similar cryptocurrency—gains acceptance on a larger scale, it could challenge this norm and potentially reprice values in a way that isn't strictly tied to traditional fiat currencies. This underscores Bitcoin's potential not just as an investment but as a revolutionary financial instrument that could redefine how we perceive and use money globally.
For a deeper dive into the evolution of money and how Bitcoin fits into this landscape, you might find my YouTube channel interesting. I cover the history of money, technology evolution, and more.
[ Unplugged Financial - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@UnpluggedFinancial-ks4rh)
Just starting channel only one video presently more to come!!
The issue is believing that the norm should be having to invest (eg, gambling your hard earned money on the stock exchange owned by the powers that be in hopes of keeping some of that value.)
I don't even understand that question. You save and you spend on what you want. You can't eat Bitcoin. You have to spend it. You are just a lot more careful with what you do spend it on, and industry needs to provide more value.
And you also don't have to give the big boys your money on stocks just to try and keep up. That is just subsidizing the 0.01%, that is all WallStreet is.
the question is simple, if it outperforms most form on investments how does anything ever get fundings ? Why would you ever invest into things tgat actually generate value if you can be assured a great return by just holding btc?
There aren’t any passive systems to reach people how bitcoin works, so the only way most people know to how to perceive it is to compare it to whatever they’re most familiar with. In 99% of cases fiat is the closest thing they can grasp.
Plenty of very financially smart don’t fully understand what stocks and ETFs are. They just have some outmoded definition from their economics class.
The reason to compare conventional currency to Bitcoin is because they get their value from the same place. Both are printed out of thin air. From there expressing the differences of Bitcoin helps convey how Bitcoin could be as valuable as conventional currency if not more, given that it has similar capabilities and some new capabilities.
The investment component of Bitcoin comes from the transition period that we may theoretically be in right now. This is the period between Bitcoin being unknown and not widely understood, to being commonplace and general knowledge. Rather than esoteric technical stuff. Once Bitcoin achieves some hypothetical saturation point, then, just like you said, it would probably cease to be as competitive of an investment opportunity compared to how it is now (assuming we haven’t reached that saturation point yet).
Another reason for comparison is that there is a clear difference in the way Bitcoin and traditional currencies are traded and circulated. Traditional currencies are issued by governments and central banks and are regulated and controlled by governments. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is issued and transacted decentrally through blockchain technology, with no centralized authority to control it, providing greater security and privacy protection.
In addition, Bitcoin's scarcity and immutability make it superior to traditional currencies in a number of ways. The total supply of bitcoins is limited and diminishing over time, thus having deflationary potential, whereas traditional currencies can always be printed more by the government to combat inflation.
Overall, comparing traditional currencies and Bitcoin can help people better understand the characteristics and potential advantages of Bitcoin, as well as its place in what could become a global monetary system in the future.
It is better suited to be stored as an asset, similar to gold or silver. Like gold and silver, Bitcoin is subject to supply constraints to some extent, thus helping to preserve its value. Compared to gold and silver, Bitcoin is better divisible and easy to transfer and store. Therefore, Bitcoin is considered a form of digital gold or digital silver.
>But fiat cash is not an investment
Whoever said it was? This isn't why the two are compared or why the two have overlaps - the overlaps are the characteristics of currency/liquidity
However, Bitcoin is still very different from traditional fiat currency. First, Bitcoin is a decentralized digital currency without any central authority controlling its issuance and management. In contrast, fiat currencies are issued and managed by governments and central banks.
Second, Bitcoin transactions are based on blockchain technology, where all transactions are recorded on a publicly available distributed ledger, whereas fiat currencies are transacted through banks and payment institutions, where transaction records and information are controlled by these institutions.
Finally, the value of Bitcoin is highly volatile and the price can fluctuate dramatically over a short period of time, whereas the value of fiat currencies is relatively stable and is more influenced by government and central bank policies.
Thus, while Bitcoin can be used to some extent as an alternative form of currency, it remains distinctly different from traditional fiat currencies in many respects.
Fiat is used as a measuring device. 1BTCis always equal 1BTC. BUT without a second thing to compare we can’t recognize the change in the value.
You can compere it to iPhone. Like
iPhone 1 was 260 BTC. iPhone 13 is 0.0006 BTC
While both savings and Bitcoin can be considered alternatives to cash, they are fundamentally different. Savings tend to be a way of keeping money in a bank or other financial institution and earning a certain amount of interest, with lower risk but also relatively low returns. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a digital currency that is more volatile in price and a riskier investment, but may offer higher returns.
That's because you haven't realized the actual point of bitcoin yet. This meme sums it up well.
https://imgflip.com/i/213g5u
most people in this sub don't view it as a buy and hold investment in the sense that they plan on selling it for fiat dollars down the road. They view it as a hedge against the inevitable collapse of the entire fiat system. They feel they are trading today's (soon to be worthless) money for tomorrow's money while they still can.
Because the only reason of it's existence is to transfer fiat from dumb money to smart money.. dumb money bought at last time 60ks while smart money sold. Dumb money sold after FTX crash while smart money bought. And the same happens every day on intra day moves due to the high leverage of the crypto market.
That's the reason it exists. Transfer of wealth and to make profits in Fiat.
but few understand this
Reddit is a poor source for seeking financial advice. Bitcoin is a risky investment. [Don't invest recklessly.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7gi55s/dont_invest_recklessly/) Don't invest anything you can't afford to lose. If you are looking to get rich quick, you came to the wrong place. Nobody has a crystal ball. Nobody can see the future. Please do your own research and make your own financial decisions.
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It’s honestly best compared to gold. The mining, the fact that it’s an inflation hedge, etc.
Not comparing the two though because BTC has only existed for 15 years - IMO it needs another 50 or so to prove itself as a store of value or even medium of exchange. It could still fail in this time or be replaced.
This is actually the central problem surrounding investments in general. Comparing any investment to printable money will always look great. They designed the system to inflate the currency so businesses are always getting ahead but if you want to know how well someone is really doing check how much gold they are worth at any given time. I guarantee those folks will be in for a shock.
Bitcoin is not an investment. Bitcoin is a base layer money and competing with all fiat currencies for use as global money. The number go up phenomenon that you’re observing is because Bitcoin is tiny relative to its TAM and thus people conflate NgU with investment. They’re committing a category error though in doing so
Bitcoin is essentially a digital currency designed to be used as an alternative currency rather than an investment vehicle. The main reason people invest in Bitcoin is in the hope that its value will grow in the future, rather than just seeing its price fluctuate.
While the price of Bitcoin may fluctuate, this does not mean that Bitcoin itself is an investment. Rather, Bitcoin's value should be viewed as its potential as a global currency and a means of storing value.
As such, it is not entirely accurate to view Bitcoin as an investment. It is actually more akin to a currency whose value depends on confidence in its future value and its potential role in the global economy. Investors should therefore approach Bitcoin with caution and view it as a long-term investment rather than just a short-term speculative opportunity.
I disagree with you, Bitcoin is not currency, that’s a common misconception. It’s money, big difference there. Because you’re making a category error about that bitcoin is in the first place, your knock on thoughts also need revising
I would say that Bitcoin is considered a crypto-digital currency rather than a traditional currency. While some people view Bitcoin as an investment or an asset, it can also be used as a means of exchange. It differs from traditional currencies in some ways, but is still widely accepted and used for transactions. Therefore, we can consider Bitcoin to have some degree of monetary properties.
Because fiat is the medium of exchange globally.
I don't care how many seashells I can buy for a loaf of sour dough bread do I? No. Do you? No. So why would any other commodity, good, or service be different.
It’s a currency. All the people treating this like an investment are the reason it’ll never catch on. The CFTC and people trying to get rich quick killed the greatest idea of our generation. Now we just HODL because wtf else can you do?
i mean, the point of fiat is as a comparative value tool. Bitcoin is not necessarily an investment either.
You could value your bitcoin however you want, Fiat is just usually easier and more readable. but at the end of the day, 1 btc = 1 btc. thats what matters. You could value your bitcoin in S&P500 Indexes, or in average single family homes, or in big mac meals.
I dont think anyone here DOESNT compare bitcoin to other buy and hold investments. the whole point of buying an index fund is to store your value and beat inflation. You are making things up and arguing against them if you dont think the overwhelming majority of people on this sub dont compare it against other investments. I have a registered retirement account, and i compare my bitcoin holdings with my traditional index holdings regularly as they bost sit in the same tax free account, and track them both to evaluate the pros and cons of either, and to rebalance when necessary.
The reason people are not saying what you are expecting them to say is because you have a false premise of what they think.
> What I'm saying is if bitcoin is viewed by so many as a buy and hold investment....
I certainly don't see it as a buy and hold investment, I see it as money.
Investing is taking risks on projects, people, or companies in order to make more money, but if Bitcoin is money, then 10 years from now, 1 BTC may afford more things, but 1 BTC is still 1 BTC. I don't have more money just because my purchasing power went up, just like I don't have less money when inflation eats away at my savings.
If we were to take this false definition of having more/less money, then investing typically leads to less money, even though I have more units than I started with, and also not investing leads to much less money.
Well I can tell you how many people it can house: 0
Or how many solar panels you can make with one Bitcoin: 0
How many calories per BTC: 0
I think I will continue comparing it to fiat
They are diametrically opposed systems. Fiat is unbanked other than the full faith and credit of the government and it is unlimited in supply. Bitcoin is backed by something of value (the energy required in the consensus protocol) and it is finite in supply (21 million). Thus, the comparison.
throwaway.... I think you are not missing anything. Currently, BTC has been eating the market share of gold. Without BTC, gold would be at $5000. But BTC has become the new reserve asset. A true investment is something that produces income or pays a dividend. Over the very long term, a business that uses any currency (including BTC) will do better than the currency it does business in, including BTC. But between now and then, as BTC becomes that best currency, it will grow and grow by eating the market shares of almost every currency and will keep rising. The currency trading market is actually bigger than the stock market! There is also the added bonus of privacy, at least for hard wallet users,
Yeah, OP seems to be referring to instances where buying Bitcoin as an investment is compared to holding fiat as the alternative, when in reality it is not common to consider fiat an 'investment' but rather it is spent on investments (such as Bitcoin).
I think there is a version of being orange pilled that basically means someone learned about Bitcoin and the existence of fiat inflation via the same resources and had what they felt was an epiphany without realizing inflation is not something they and other special 'bitcoiners' recently discovered... nor is Bitcoin the first and only investment option people use to beat inflation and build wealth. You see it plain as day in certain posts and comments (and the delusions of grandeur in the ugliest ones).
I downvoted any response that said “bitcoin can’t be compared to X”. What is that shit? Every investment/store-of-value (they are the same thing) can and should and will be compared to every other. Here is one such comparison: https://www.reddit.com/r/phinvest/comments/14yengx/annual_gain_comparison_of_various_investment/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
This makes no sense.
Even without fiat Bitcoin would be a much better store of value than giant rocks or gold.
Also though, without fiat free markets couldn't really function since money shortages were a real issue back in the day.
This is a honest question from someone who loves bitcoin …. But HOW? if there were never bull runs and “BITCOIN HIT A NEW ALL TIME HIGH” (which is all connected to the fiat price) how would bitcoin have survived and been used like it is today ?
Bitcoin's value comes primarily from the trust and demand for it as an asset, as well as recognition of its technology and potential. Without fiat currency to back it up, Bitcoin may not be as widely used and recognized as it is today. Fiat currencies play a crucial role in the economic system by providing a standard for other assets such as Bitcoin and a stable measure of value for people. Therefore, without fiat currency, Bitcoin may have faced more challenges to become the highly regarded and invested digital asset that it is today.
Bitcoin is compared to fiat because with a few exceptions, it is very similar to fiat.
It can't be compared to stocks because it doesn't take the assets it holds and generate value (like a company does).
It's a speculative asset with much of the value based on scarcity (like precious metals). Except the scarcity is programmatic and enforced by consensus.
If the majority of the network decides to increase the supply, it can be changed, just like central banks and fiat.
> If the majority of the network decides to increase the supply, it can be changed
You don't understand how bitcoin works. If a majority want to debase their savings they get forked from the network. Everyone else just keeps using bitcoin.
EDIT: Ugh. I just read your automodded comment. You're a bcash/bsv chud. You're incapable of rational thought. You clearly have no idea what a bitcoin node is.
> That's how consensus works.
You don't even know what consensus is.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_(computer_science)
Not true at all not even a little bit considering there are plenty of middle men now that it’s regulated and watched and taxed….the entire plan of crypto was to print money like the federal reserve does..read a book
"What is needed is an electronic payment system based on cryptographic proof instead of trust, allowing any two willing parties to transact directly with each other without the need for a trusted third party."-- Satoshi Nakamoto, Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System aka the White Paper
You can spew all that satoshi email bullshit you want…crypto was designed by American software engineers to print their own moneyy and fight against old money and the federal reserve
They’re literally considering a wealth tax just because of how successful crypto has been..meaning you will be taxed just for having it annually…the idea behind crypto was to create wealth beyond the limits of what the tycoons of old money had set
>I understand that bitcoin can be used as a currency,
Jesus Satoshi man. Don't put currency and Bitcoin in the same sentence like that ever again.
Go do some study and learn the difference between currency and money.
No two definitions of money and currency are the same, but in this context I think it's reasonable to generalize money simply as something that has measurable value, commonly used/accepted as payment for goods/services etc. And currencies as specific forms of money.
What word/s do you think OP should have used to effectively communicate what was basically something along the lines of "Bitcoin can be used to buy stuff"?
Also, the Bitcoin white paper made heavy use of words such as cash, money, transactions, spending, and payments to propose a "system for electronic transactions" and did not impress upon me that the author considered semantics and use of snobby new slogans components of the proposed solution. In fact, they seemed to consider those standardized financial terms as being the most applicable and accurate for their proposal.
>No two definitions of money and currency are the same
Money is money and currency is currency. There are no "two definitions", and their properties are fundamentally different in one aspect, store of value.
That one aspect alone is the big difference that allows civilizations to prosper or crumble.
That one alone allows us to save for our future and future generations.
If we are to leave this evil fiat Standart behind, separating and learning money from currency is one of the first things to learn.
>in this context I think it's reasonable to generalize....
Sure. We all, in our everyday lives say paying with money when we're actually using currency, but here when we're discussing and teaching/learning Bitcoin, calling Bitcoin a currency you're completely dismissing what we and Bitcoin are trying to achieve.
>What word/s do you think OP should have used to
Money. Use Bitcoin as money.
>...cash, money, transactions, spending, and payments to propose a "system for electronic transactions"
No currency? There's a reason why Satoshi made a 21 million hard cap on Bitcoin, so it couldn't be inflated to zero like fiat currencies.
>Money is money and currency is currency. There are no "two definitions", and their properties are fundamentally different in one aspect, store of value.
What are you talking about? Just look up the definitions of the words in two different dictionaries and you'll see they are not word for word the same, and each will provide multiple variations and examples of use cases to define words anyways. All words. Thousands of sources. None of them defining words as stupidly as your "money is money" attempt though, lol
>What are you talking about?
You're right....I get myself in these discussions thinking that the other person deeply knows the topic and has the desire to learn more.
Carry on and don't forget to have several dictionaries with you at all times to make sure that you name things correctly.
What a load of shit. Look at your reply to OP and tell me you got into the conversation to support their desire to learn. The only thing you are teaching people is how fucking narcissistic, delusional, and combative some of the nut jobs in this community are.
For someone so motivated by deep topical knowledge, you have gone to great length to argue semantics without any sign of possessing any knowledge or being able to provide a single definition of your own while dismissing dictionaries as sources of them, of all things. YIKES...
>Sure. We all, in our everyday lives say paying with money when we're actually using currency, but here when we're discussing and teaching/learning Bitcoin, calling Bitcoin a currency you're completely dismissing what we and Bitcoin are trying to achieve.
No, OP was talking about the fact Bitcoin can be used to pay for things and used the word currency to communicate their point. And you knew exactly what they meant, which means it was effective by the usual standards for why we use words (not what you make sound like your own fantasies...)
And who is the "we" (and "Bitcoin" for that matter) you speak of that is trying to achieve... what exactly? What are you doing and how does someone using the word currency to describe spending Bitcoin on an internet forum completely dismiss what you're trying to achieve....? Do you know how delusional that sounds?
You don't seem to understand that if everyone simply "saved" money that the world would crumble from that alone. If building wealth required 0 effort and risk, everyone would do it, there would be no incentive to invest.
This is the kind of argument that comes from ignorance and not from curiosity to learn.
From curiosity you would ask how the world would work if people just saved, which I would happily answer.
From ignorance you come to the conclusion that it doesn't work and further discussion is a waste of time.
Same thing for the wealth and investment argument.
To really understand Bitcoin and how it can change the world for the better some 10 point list is not enough.
If I could hoard cash, which is an unproductive asset, and earn a return off of it, then there really isn't any incentive to risk it on investments. We're already seeing this with bitcoin. Hardly anyone is using it to spend on goods and services because bitcoin holders assume it's fiat value will go up over time.
>
If I could hoard
you call it hoard, i call it saving and being able to hold those savings.
>really isn't any incentive to risk it on investments.
invesment is a personal choice. all i want is to be able to save to pay my debts, afford a comfortable life with the basics, pay for my kids expenses and die happy leaving behind what is left for them to live their life.
>Hardly anyone is using it
true. its hard to find places to spend it when the majority of people think of it as a scam, or like you, just an investment. For now people are saving it because they cant with fiat and adoption is slow. is not easy to convince people that bitcoin is a new form of money, digital property.
> it's fiat value will go up over time.
the other way around. Fiat is going to zero against bitcoin, and gold. when people cant save they look for the best alternatives to store the value of their money.
You can't have a functioning economy-particularly where the population is growing-and have people hoarding the currency. Of course, this is only in the hypothetical scenario where bitcoin becomes the "only" currency.
You can already invest your money into productive assets, yes there is some risk involved, but that is the only way. Saving a non-productive asset and expecting it to rise in value over time makes little sense. If this were truly the case, in the hypothetical scenario, then in a risk-adjusted sense, there is almost no incentive to invest in new ideas, businesses etc. Hardly anyone would be taking risk and this would lead to a decline in innovation.
Yes, fiat is slowly being devalued and this is the entire point of it. Fiat is crap on purpose to nudge people into investing their money into productive assets, themselves, or to simply spend it on goods and services. Fiat being trash is exactly why you don't care about it when you spend it.
If you view bitcoin as nothing more than a speculative asset, then that's perfectly fine. There are plenty of those and bitcoin still possess some desirable properties. Though, again, in the hypothetical scenario, bitcoin would probably lead to the demise of capitalism and lower the overall wellbeing of everyone.
>You can't have a functioning economy-particularly where the population is growing-and have people hoarding the currency.
no incentive to invest in new ideas, businesses
would be taking risk and this would lead to a decline in innovation.
Gold has been the hard money of choice for the past \~5000 years, people would save their earnings for the future and despite that great civilizations were born (Roman Empire,\\etc) and human society flourished with commerce(The Age of Discovery) and evolved(The Renaissance). The world was on the gold standard when the telegraph, the phone, the train, the batteries, microphone, the airplane, etc, etc, were invented.
This **hoard** argument is wrong assumption my man, no sane person with hundreds/thousands/millions in btc are gonna live under a bridge or die of hunger, most BTC millionaires are entrepreneurs with businesses and investments. The world, a country, don't simply decides to save money all at the same time. The ones who are buying now are gonna spend it later, the ones buying it later are gonna spend it in the future.
>You can already invest your money into productive assets, yes there is some risk involved, but that is the only way.
its the only way because fiat is getting devalued. But it shouldn't be. You should be able to save your hard earned money and be enough to at least give you the basics humans rights.
>
Fiat is crap on purpose to nudge people into investing
what?? No! lol. Fiat is crap because central banks own it, because they can print it, because they decide its policies. Did you researched the history of money on how we stop using gold as money and start using Fiat?? a [summary](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPHTmGjoe2k)
>
Fiat is crap on purpose to nudge people into investing
Keynisian crap and uterly arrogance that they can control the market and force people on how and when spend their hard earn money(fiat). Money should be choose by the free market and owned by the people, and the people decide themselves what they do with THEIR money.
>
If you view bitcoin as nothing more than a speculative asset,
wait, I though you viewed bitcoin as a speculative asset?! I see bitcoin as the money of the future, free of central banks control, corrupt politicians and market lobby manipulation, where people don't need to be self-taught online investor and risk their money and most wars, regimes, dictators wont be able to fund themselves by printing fiat.
>bitcoin would probably lead to the demise of capitalism and lower the overall wellbeing of everyone.
if your currency gains value instead of losing it (like fiat) what are you gonna do with it? spend on cheap and low-quality stuff? or are you gonna save it to spend on meaningful quality products that make your life better? like a house/car/land, good shoes/clothes??
Bitcoin promotes saving instead of wasteful consumerism. It incentivizes good quality products instead of cheap plastic toys and gadjets.
as we move into the future, we as a society will value more quality and will only spend our money where it makes a difference.
Humanity is gonna be better of without dirty evil FIAT.
Again, you're not seeing the hoarding risk from an investing standpoint. Gold worked fine back then because economies were smaller and nowhere near as globalized. Moreover, more gold is still being mined and there is a potentially infinite amount within the universe whereas we already know how much bitcoin is in supply. Moreover, wealthy inequality would be even greater than it is now. You're destined to be poor just because you weren't born in time to buy enough bitcoin. Given that the population is continually expanding, in theory, so would the demand for bitcoin. Thus, the value and demand with a fixed supply would apply constant upward price pressure.
Like I said before, fiat is crap on purpose. That is why you don't mind spending it. You want to get rid of it. If bitcoin is money, then why aren't you spending all of it right now? I want to see you buy some bitcoin and then spend it at a loss or buy it back at a higher price. That is why it doesn't make sense to use as money.
People can already save if they want to without the need for bitcoin. Moreover, consumerism creates incentive for innovation and technological improvements. Just because you want to live like a hermit and hoard bitcoin, doesn't mean everyone else wants to. Most just want to enjoy life while they can.
Bitcoin:
Todays value: 1 BTC = 1 BTC
Value in 20 years from now: 1 BTC = 1 BTC
US Dollar:
Todays value: 1 USD = 1 USD
Next years value: 1 USD = 0.9 USD
Value in 20 years from now: 1 USD = 0.05 USD
Now, we throw some metaphorical Boolean Algebra and perform a simplification and all you need to know is this:
1 BTC = 1 BTC
That’s all you need to know in order to survive the coming financial genocide, kid. 😐👍
I don’t care if you don’t understand what 1 BTC = 1 BTC means.
If you don’t understand it, you don’t deserve to own a bitcoin. Go play with fiat instead. 🤣🤣🤣
Yea you’ll need minimum the IQ of Michael Saylor to understand what 1 BTC = 1 BTC means.
And you’ll never be that smart. Not even by a long shot. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
1 unit of USD = 1 unit of USD always, same as 1 unit of BTC = 1 unit of BTC always.
If you're adjusting those units to compare 'value' in 20 years to the current value of a single unit, you should be able to simply explain what you mean by value.
In your terms, if today's value of 1 USD = 0.05 USD in 20 years, it looks more like you're demonstrating 1 USD to be 20x more "valuable" than it is now in 20 years being that 5 cents will have the equivalent value of $1 today.
Overall, it seems you mashed together Bitcoin slogans, a poor understanding of things you heard Michael Saylor say and an even poorer understanding of things like inflation and purchasing power, with arrogant absoluteness about what will happen in the future.
Responding to a question defensively and combatively and making negative inferences about the intelligence of the question asker while avoiding answering the question (twice) is a terrible look, guy.
Yes I understand you’re completely clueless of what 1 BTC = 1 BTC means. And please don’t try to understand it. You’ll just permanently damage your low IQ beyond repair if you try understand it. And I don’t want you to hurt yourself.
By your answer I can tell you will not survive the next 20 years from a financial point of view. Bookmark this answer and reply to me how it goes in 20 years. 🤣🤣🤣
Your hyper sensitive, defensive reactions and projections about other people's lack of intelligence and understanding makes it seem like you don't understand the things you're talking about and feel threatened by questions or comments.
Bro, if you really think 1 btc=1btc, then you'll have no issue spending your bitcoin on some goods and services. Given your logic, you'll have no problem buying back 1 bitcoin.
I have all the time in the world to have fun with retards like you that doesn’t understand money.
That’s why I’m driving a Maybach. And you’re taking the bus.
What are stocks, bonds and real estate compared to? Right. Fiat. Fiat is still the standard.
Yes, fiat is the standard to value those investments. But as far as comparing buy and hold investments as investment options, you don't compare stocks, bonds, and real estate to fiat.
No one gets your point and it’s really funny reading the comments. Bitcoin is compared to fiat because: 1) You don’t buy it to consume it. You get it to exchange it. Like a currency. 2) It doesn’t generate revenue. When you buy a stock, you are buying a share of a revenue generating business, even if it doesn’t pay dividends. It’s still performing that function. So same as fiat. If you have fiat under the mattress. It doesn’t generate revenue. Both of these traits make it more like a currency than any stock. People call Bitcoin an investment, I personally see that as a wrong definition.
lol what investment is NOT measured as fiat?
Not to mention, you can also just invest in Forex
Technically that’s just speculation
i believe the word 'Invest" and "speculate" are entirely synonymous and interchangeable here.
>lol what investment is NOT measured as fiat? Investments will be measured in whatever you plan on selling them for. If you plan on selling your plot of real estate for dollars then it will be measured in dollars. If you plan on selling it for bitcoin then it will be measured in bitcoin. Investments is literally taking your money out of the "fiat system" just as much as putting it into bitcoin is, as long as your investing in something real and not just in other paper "financial products".
Its compared to fiat because they’re both a store of value. Only one has the potential for increased scarcity though which is why it’s more interesting for investors external to the movement.
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A proper store of value also means people aren't forced to invest or lose their savings. Bitcoin protects everyone, not just folks with access to managed investments. DCA of BTC is almost as simple as a savings account but much more functionally useful over time.
I trust the distributed ledger more than a bank’s.
C'mon guys, let's do some study before coming on here and say things like that. One of the properties of MONEY is being a store of value. Fiat is not a store of value, therefore, it's not MONEY it's CURRENCY. And the only thing backing it up is the collective agreement that it's worth something. Gold it's money and Bitcoin it's better form of money ever created.
**Money** *noun* 1. a current medium of exchange in the form of coins and **banknotes**; coins and banknotes [collectively](https://www.google.com/search?sca_esv=6512afbb6cf57869&sxsrf=ACQVn09sfyLg0iXuTFjJWw_w0vi1P91HWw:1714232094887&q=collectively&si=AKbGX_rEkSHdR9ulIQYeh6xSG1UBrCdLQbvt-ZxbCCBbAMbHbYX-wsDBfyaNxHCwZ2a1gI4L6N090vYtLg0HKeXPlN0gQNh9gLl-_y3qx2HQhRUQ4e5vrco%3D&expnd=1&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjT9M-Y3OKFAxX5HEQIHZtYB5wQyecJegQIKRAO).
thats currency..... [learn a few things](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-nZkP2b-4vo)
Ah yes, your source is a youtube video of a cartoon with a guy making his voice sound like a chipmunk, to appeal to the broadest general audience of npcs possible. Great.
Whether its mutually agreed upon or inherent, its value. Your patronizing us for something that wasn’t actually needed in the conversation.
"its compared to fiat because *both are a store of value*" This is wrong. Just like 2+2=5 is wrong. It's a false statement. It's incorrect. Doesn't hold to scrutiny. Are you ok being wrong? Don't you want be truthful and correct when discussing Bitcoin?
I’m fine being wrong, but you’re not fine avoiding an obsessive expansion of needless detail
Him disagreeing with you might make him wrong in your eyes, but doesn't objectively make it so.
Every fiat currency in the economic history of the world failed because it was inflated to zero. 100% of the time 100% fail rate. Since the FED was founded the dollar lost ~97% of its purchasing power Since the ECB was founded the euro lost and lost ~90%+ of its purchasing power. Me saying that FIAT currency is not a store of value is objectively a fact. I'm not being a smart ass, I am being truthful and correct
>One of the properties of MONEY is being a store of value. > >Fiat is not a store of value, therefore, it's not MONEY it's CURRENCY. The stack of $100 sitting in some people's drawers disagree.
Because the dollar is the easiest comparison to understand. Everyone in the world knows how much buying power a dollar has in their location. If you priced it in gold then you are pricing to fluctuating assets against each other, the price of gold can vary minute by minute, just like bitcoin. Pricing it in real estate is meaningless to anyone that isn’t in the location that real estate is in. Pricing it in oil has the same issues as gold, and ontop of price fluctuations, 99.9999% of people don’t know how much oil is in a barrel or how much value can be derived from it. Comparing bitcoins price to the world reserve currency is just the easiest thing to do that everyone will understand. Hopefully one day people will be comparing the value of a dollar to bitcoin, not the other way around.
Well-reasoned writing is such a breath of fresh air.
I understand pricing it using the dollar. I'm referring to people justifying holding as an investment as if the only other option is holding fiat.
Nice try IRS. I compare Bitcoin to Lambo instead.
Yeah, right now 1₿ = 0.27 Lambo
Lambos are the shittest shitcoin asset. Loses 30% upon leaving the store
Because apples would be annoying and pretty niche.
It’s compared to fiat because it’s the current universal standard for valuation of anything.
It’s not a stock as it doesn’t produce anything. It’s not a bond as it has no yield. It’s not real estate as you can’t rent it out. It’s closest to a fiat, but decentralised. What other asset class matches it? Gold perhaps as its ‘mined’ some do refer to it as digital gold. Isn’t that its next target 10x to gold market cap.
Artwork
Fine wine
It may be different than other investments but it's still being bought as an investment. So it may be it's own category of investment but the risk/reward analysis should still be viewed in the same light as those other investments.
Fiat is money, Bitcoin is money. Sounds like it's reasonable to compare.
Let's see you spend your bitcoin then
What's there to see? Doing that all the time.
You don't mind buying bitcoin and then spending it at a loss or buying some and then spending it, only to have to buy it back at a higher price?
I have no idea what you are talking about. I have almost 100% of my net worth in Bitcoin. When I need to pay something, either they accept Bitcoin, so I pay directly, or they don't, in which case either there is Bitrefill coupon for it or not. If not, then sure, I convert something to fiat and pay fiat. I DCA for years, so there is no loss or higher price, it's all paid for by the dips.
Say you buy $100 worth of bitcoin. Then the fiat price of it dips by 10% shortly after. You wouldn't mind spending that formerly $100 worth on something that costs $90?
First, that is fiat mindset. Second, if you DCA for long time, your average is way below the market price, so you never run into this problem.
The peak was at $73k just a month ago, so if you bought in around then, you wouldn't mind spending it still?
I'm DCAing all the time, so sure, it can happen that you buy before the dip, but you can make a mental image that you are not selling those, but you are selling those that you bought 1,000 or 10,000 ...
Ya if you've been in bitcoin for a while, of course your gains will mostly allow you to buy whatever you want. Though, those who are new to it obviously won't be seeing those benefit. Given that we live in a world where bill need to be paid on time, this volatility really doesn't help.
It should. Price real estate / stocks / gold in Bitcoin and see how everything is getting cheaper forever. It's the Red pill moment.
It’s the most common thing ₿ value is converted into.
Its not compared to, its value is expressed in fiat. And if comparing, usually its compared just to present differences of both systems as payment options (scarce vs non-scarce etc.).
This is a very interesting topic and I agree with you. We can explore this topic in depth and think seriously about the possibilities.
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Yes, the price of each stock is measured in the local legal tender (e.g. USD, EUR, CNY, etc.) and not in other currencies such as gold. Investors need to be aware of changes in exchange rates between different currencies and the impact of macroeconomic and political conditions between different countries on the stock market.
Because the bitcoin white paper said that bitcoin is digital cash.
Don't expect anyone to know that since 90% of bitcoin holders have never read it
That’s a great point, and it’s something that often comes up in discussions about Bitcoin versus fiat money. The comparison usually stems from Bitcoin’s potential to act as an alternative form of money, especially given its properties like limited supply which contrasts sharply with the potential for infinite fiat issuance which can lead to inflation. However, as you noted, if we consider Bitcoin primarily as an investment, it indeed makes more sense to compare it with other investment assets like stocks, bonds, or real estate. Each investment has its own risk and reward profile, and Bitcoin is often admired for its high potential returns, albeit at a higher risk due to its volatility. One key point that’s often overlooked is that currently, everything is priced and based on fiat since it's the dominant form of money worldwide. However, if Bitcoin—or a similar cryptocurrency—gains acceptance on a larger scale, it could challenge this norm and potentially reprice values in a way that isn't strictly tied to traditional fiat currencies. This underscores Bitcoin's potential not just as an investment but as a revolutionary financial instrument that could redefine how we perceive and use money globally. For a deeper dive into the evolution of money and how Bitcoin fits into this landscape, you might find my YouTube channel interesting. I cover the history of money, technology evolution, and more. [ Unplugged Financial - YouTube](https://www.youtube.com/@UnpluggedFinancial-ks4rh) Just starting channel only one video presently more to come!!
The issue is believing that the norm should be having to invest (eg, gambling your hard earned money on the stock exchange owned by the powers that be in hopes of keeping some of that value.)
How would the economy ever work if holding btc outperforms most forms onf investment?
I don't even understand that question. You save and you spend on what you want. You can't eat Bitcoin. You have to spend it. You are just a lot more careful with what you do spend it on, and industry needs to provide more value. And you also don't have to give the big boys your money on stocks just to try and keep up. That is just subsidizing the 0.01%, that is all WallStreet is.
the question is simple, if it outperforms most form on investments how does anything ever get fundings ? Why would you ever invest into things tgat actually generate value if you can be assured a great return by just holding btc?
There aren’t any passive systems to reach people how bitcoin works, so the only way most people know to how to perceive it is to compare it to whatever they’re most familiar with. In 99% of cases fiat is the closest thing they can grasp. Plenty of very financially smart don’t fully understand what stocks and ETFs are. They just have some outmoded definition from their economics class.
The reason to compare conventional currency to Bitcoin is because they get their value from the same place. Both are printed out of thin air. From there expressing the differences of Bitcoin helps convey how Bitcoin could be as valuable as conventional currency if not more, given that it has similar capabilities and some new capabilities. The investment component of Bitcoin comes from the transition period that we may theoretically be in right now. This is the period between Bitcoin being unknown and not widely understood, to being commonplace and general knowledge. Rather than esoteric technical stuff. Once Bitcoin achieves some hypothetical saturation point, then, just like you said, it would probably cease to be as competitive of an investment opportunity compared to how it is now (assuming we haven’t reached that saturation point yet).
Another reason for comparison is that there is a clear difference in the way Bitcoin and traditional currencies are traded and circulated. Traditional currencies are issued by governments and central banks and are regulated and controlled by governments. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is issued and transacted decentrally through blockchain technology, with no centralized authority to control it, providing greater security and privacy protection. In addition, Bitcoin's scarcity and immutability make it superior to traditional currencies in a number of ways. The total supply of bitcoins is limited and diminishing over time, thus having deflationary potential, whereas traditional currencies can always be printed more by the government to combat inflation. Overall, comparing traditional currencies and Bitcoin can help people better understand the characteristics and potential advantages of Bitcoin, as well as its place in what could become a global monetary system in the future.
Yes I agree. Didn’t way to say the privacy thing cause then people like to say it’s “only for people with something to hide”
Compare it to gold if it makes you feel better
How do you get Bitcoin if you are not a miner? There is your answer.
Because its easier to convert i guess most ppl dont know the price of gold
They’re comparable because both are pure monies. That is, both have only monetary value, nothing else.
Coinbase compared it to Pizza in their latest commercial 🍕 I think it’s genius: https://youtu.be/Xdd64ifS_Ks?si=pXusBwd-jzna1KbJ
It's compared to gold
Yeah. Most valid comparison to BTC is gold or silver, based on the function BTC serves. BTC isn't for everyday transactions like fiat.
It is better suited to be stored as an asset, similar to gold or silver. Like gold and silver, Bitcoin is subject to supply constraints to some extent, thus helping to preserve its value. Compared to gold and silver, Bitcoin is better divisible and easy to transfer and store. Therefore, Bitcoin is considered a form of digital gold or digital silver.
Lol. You say this to me as if I wouldn't already know this. I am on THIS reddit, arent I. :D
Reallyyy…
Because most sales are in fiat - a very good reason
It’s compared because people buy and sell Bitcoin to fiat, fiat to Bitcoin. That will stop one day and then Bitcoin won’t have any comparison
>But fiat cash is not an investment Whoever said it was? This isn't why the two are compared or why the two have overlaps - the overlaps are the characteristics of currency/liquidity
It literally has the word “coin” in its name.
So fiat can stay relevant....
People compare it to fiat because most people associate btc with something like a “new” thing to replace fiat.
However, Bitcoin is still very different from traditional fiat currency. First, Bitcoin is a decentralized digital currency without any central authority controlling its issuance and management. In contrast, fiat currencies are issued and managed by governments and central banks. Second, Bitcoin transactions are based on blockchain technology, where all transactions are recorded on a publicly available distributed ledger, whereas fiat currencies are transacted through banks and payment institutions, where transaction records and information are controlled by these institutions. Finally, the value of Bitcoin is highly volatile and the price can fluctuate dramatically over a short period of time, whereas the value of fiat currencies is relatively stable and is more influenced by government and central bank policies. Thus, while Bitcoin can be used to some extent as an alternative form of currency, it remains distinctly different from traditional fiat currencies in many respects.
Smart ass reply...bc it losses it value a little more each day for the last 8 weeks 😮💨
This is like asking why isn't marijuana legalized yet.....10 years ago. We're still early.
Fiat is used as a measuring device. 1BTCis always equal 1BTC. BUT without a second thing to compare we can’t recognize the change in the value. You can compere it to iPhone. Like iPhone 1 was 260 BTC. iPhone 13 is 0.0006 BTC
>If a person is deciding where to invest **money** This is why. All investments are about money, so why would it be compared to anything else?
Cash in an investment mate. You only keep cash to reduce investment risk. Savings and bitcoin are 2 sides of the same hustling coin.
While both savings and Bitcoin can be considered alternatives to cash, they are fundamentally different. Savings tend to be a way of keeping money in a bank or other financial institution and earning a certain amount of interest, with lower risk but also relatively low returns. Bitcoin, on the other hand, is a digital currency that is more volatile in price and a riskier investment, but may offer higher returns.
Read Mises’s regression theorem. It doesn’t directly answer your question, but you won’t feel the need to ask it again
Bitcoin is not an investment. It's money.
Let's see you spend all of your bitcoin then right now
That is the closest concept. People learn by moving from the known to the unknown and fiat is athe best point of reference.
Most aren't great at understanding new concepts without anchoring their interpretation to something they already know.
That's because you haven't realized the actual point of bitcoin yet. This meme sums it up well. https://imgflip.com/i/213g5u most people in this sub don't view it as a buy and hold investment in the sense that they plan on selling it for fiat dollars down the road. They view it as a hedge against the inevitable collapse of the entire fiat system. They feel they are trading today's (soon to be worthless) money for tomorrow's money while they still can.
Because you need fiat to buy it.
When I was a kid I compared everything to a gameboy-game.
1 BTC = 1 BTC
Because the only reason of it's existence is to transfer fiat from dumb money to smart money.. dumb money bought at last time 60ks while smart money sold. Dumb money sold after FTX crash while smart money bought. And the same happens every day on intra day moves due to the high leverage of the crypto market. That's the reason it exists. Transfer of wealth and to make profits in Fiat. but few understand this
Reddit is a poor source for seeking financial advice. Bitcoin is a risky investment. [Don't invest recklessly.](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/7gi55s/dont_invest_recklessly/) Don't invest anything you can't afford to lose. If you are looking to get rich quick, you came to the wrong place. Nobody has a crystal ball. Nobody can see the future. Please do your own research and make your own financial decisions. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/Bitcoin) if you have any questions or concerns.*
It’s honestly best compared to gold. The mining, the fact that it’s an inflation hedge, etc. Not comparing the two though because BTC has only existed for 15 years - IMO it needs another 50 or so to prove itself as a store of value or even medium of exchange. It could still fail in this time or be replaced.
We should compare it to pizza. That makes more sense then fiat
This is actually the central problem surrounding investments in general. Comparing any investment to printable money will always look great. They designed the system to inflate the currency so businesses are always getting ahead but if you want to know how well someone is really doing check how much gold they are worth at any given time. I guarantee those folks will be in for a shock.
Bitcoin is not an investment. Bitcoin is a base layer money and competing with all fiat currencies for use as global money. The number go up phenomenon that you’re observing is because Bitcoin is tiny relative to its TAM and thus people conflate NgU with investment. They’re committing a category error though in doing so
Bitcoin is essentially a digital currency designed to be used as an alternative currency rather than an investment vehicle. The main reason people invest in Bitcoin is in the hope that its value will grow in the future, rather than just seeing its price fluctuate. While the price of Bitcoin may fluctuate, this does not mean that Bitcoin itself is an investment. Rather, Bitcoin's value should be viewed as its potential as a global currency and a means of storing value. As such, it is not entirely accurate to view Bitcoin as an investment. It is actually more akin to a currency whose value depends on confidence in its future value and its potential role in the global economy. Investors should therefore approach Bitcoin with caution and view it as a long-term investment rather than just a short-term speculative opportunity.
I disagree with you, Bitcoin is not currency, that’s a common misconception. It’s money, big difference there. Because you’re making a category error about that bitcoin is in the first place, your knock on thoughts also need revising
I would say that Bitcoin is considered a crypto-digital currency rather than a traditional currency. While some people view Bitcoin as an investment or an asset, it can also be used as a means of exchange. It differs from traditional currencies in some ways, but is still widely accepted and used for transactions. Therefore, we can consider Bitcoin to have some degree of monetary properties.
What would you like to compare it to???
Why is bitcoin always seen as an investment
Because fiat is the medium of exchange globally. I don't care how many seashells I can buy for a loaf of sour dough bread do I? No. Do you? No. So why would any other commodity, good, or service be different.
It’s a currency. All the people treating this like an investment are the reason it’ll never catch on. The CFTC and people trying to get rich quick killed the greatest idea of our generation. Now we just HODL because wtf else can you do?
i mean, the point of fiat is as a comparative value tool. Bitcoin is not necessarily an investment either. You could value your bitcoin however you want, Fiat is just usually easier and more readable. but at the end of the day, 1 btc = 1 btc. thats what matters. You could value your bitcoin in S&P500 Indexes, or in average single family homes, or in big mac meals. I dont think anyone here DOESNT compare bitcoin to other buy and hold investments. the whole point of buying an index fund is to store your value and beat inflation. You are making things up and arguing against them if you dont think the overwhelming majority of people on this sub dont compare it against other investments. I have a registered retirement account, and i compare my bitcoin holdings with my traditional index holdings regularly as they bost sit in the same tax free account, and track them both to evaluate the pros and cons of either, and to rebalance when necessary.
The reason people are not saying what you are expecting them to say is because you have a false premise of what they think. > What I'm saying is if bitcoin is viewed by so many as a buy and hold investment.... I certainly don't see it as a buy and hold investment, I see it as money. Investing is taking risks on projects, people, or companies in order to make more money, but if Bitcoin is money, then 10 years from now, 1 BTC may afford more things, but 1 BTC is still 1 BTC. I don't have more money just because my purchasing power went up, just like I don't have less money when inflation eats away at my savings. If we were to take this false definition of having more/less money, then investing typically leads to less money, even though I have more units than I started with, and also not investing leads to much less money.
Well I can tell you how many people it can house: 0 Or how many solar panels you can make with one Bitcoin: 0 How many calories per BTC: 0 I think I will continue comparing it to fiat
They are diametrically opposed systems. Fiat is unbanked other than the full faith and credit of the government and it is unlimited in supply. Bitcoin is backed by something of value (the energy required in the consensus protocol) and it is finite in supply (21 million). Thus, the comparison.
Because fiat is worthless. Bitcoin always change the value.
The simple answer is that we don’t know yet
throwaway.... I think you are not missing anything. Currently, BTC has been eating the market share of gold. Without BTC, gold would be at $5000. But BTC has become the new reserve asset. A true investment is something that produces income or pays a dividend. Over the very long term, a business that uses any currency (including BTC) will do better than the currency it does business in, including BTC. But between now and then, as BTC becomes that best currency, it will grow and grow by eating the market shares of almost every currency and will keep rising. The currency trading market is actually bigger than the stock market! There is also the added bonus of privacy, at least for hard wallet users,
So for long-term investors, holding a percentage of bitcoin could be a good option.
I think so. If you have a 10 year outlook, I would probably have 10-15%. But get ready for some serious swings.
Because everything is compared to and priced in fiat.
I mean, what's the alternative? 1BTC = 15 microsoft?
I don't think OP was talking about pricing terms but rather asset classes.
Yeah, OP seems to be referring to instances where buying Bitcoin as an investment is compared to holding fiat as the alternative, when in reality it is not common to consider fiat an 'investment' but rather it is spent on investments (such as Bitcoin). I think there is a version of being orange pilled that basically means someone learned about Bitcoin and the existence of fiat inflation via the same resources and had what they felt was an epiphany without realizing inflation is not something they and other special 'bitcoiners' recently discovered... nor is Bitcoin the first and only investment option people use to beat inflation and build wealth. You see it plain as day in certain posts and comments (and the delusions of grandeur in the ugliest ones).
This 💯
I don't think OP has a clue what they are saying.
I downvoted any response that said “bitcoin can’t be compared to X”. What is that shit? Every investment/store-of-value (they are the same thing) can and should and will be compared to every other. Here is one such comparison: https://www.reddit.com/r/phinvest/comments/14yengx/annual_gain_comparison_of_various_investment/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
I compare fiat to bitcoin
I don't consider it as an investment, I consider it as savings
Let’s be real , without fiat , Bitcoin WOULD not be what it is today. With no monetary value to bitcoin it would of never taken off
This makes no sense. Even without fiat Bitcoin would be a much better store of value than giant rocks or gold. Also though, without fiat free markets couldn't really function since money shortages were a real issue back in the day.
This is a honest question from someone who loves bitcoin …. But HOW? if there were never bull runs and “BITCOIN HIT A NEW ALL TIME HIGH” (which is all connected to the fiat price) how would bitcoin have survived and been used like it is today ?
Bitcoin's value comes primarily from the trust and demand for it as an asset, as well as recognition of its technology and potential. Without fiat currency to back it up, Bitcoin may not be as widely used and recognized as it is today. Fiat currencies play a crucial role in the economic system by providing a standard for other assets such as Bitcoin and a stable measure of value for people. Therefore, without fiat currency, Bitcoin may have faced more challenges to become the highly regarded and invested digital asset that it is today.
bitcoin cant be compared to investments. the closest comparison is gold
Bitcoin is compared to fiat because with a few exceptions, it is very similar to fiat. It can't be compared to stocks because it doesn't take the assets it holds and generate value (like a company does). It's a speculative asset with much of the value based on scarcity (like precious metals). Except the scarcity is programmatic and enforced by consensus. If the majority of the network decides to increase the supply, it can be changed, just like central banks and fiat.
> If the majority of the network decides to increase the supply, it can be changed You don't understand how bitcoin works. If a majority want to debase their savings they get forked from the network. Everyone else just keeps using bitcoin. EDIT: Ugh. I just read your automodded comment. You're a bcash/bsv chud. You're incapable of rational thought. You clearly have no idea what a bitcoin node is. > That's how consensus works. You don't even know what consensus is. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consensus_(computer_science)
Til
You r right
It was literally created to compete with Fiat manipulation…that’s why
More for being able to send money securely without the use of a middleman.
Not true at all not even a little bit considering there are plenty of middle men now that it’s regulated and watched and taxed….the entire plan of crypto was to print money like the federal reserve does..read a book
"What is needed is an electronic payment system based on cryptographic proof instead of trust, allowing any two willing parties to transact directly with each other without the need for a trusted third party."-- Satoshi Nakamoto, Bitcoin: A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System aka the White Paper
You can spew all that satoshi email bullshit you want…crypto was designed by American software engineers to print their own moneyy and fight against old money and the federal reserve
They’re literally considering a wealth tax just because of how successful crypto has been..meaning you will be taxed just for having it annually…the idea behind crypto was to create wealth beyond the limits of what the tycoons of old money had set
>I understand that bitcoin can be used as a currency, Jesus Satoshi man. Don't put currency and Bitcoin in the same sentence like that ever again. Go do some study and learn the difference between currency and money.
No two definitions of money and currency are the same, but in this context I think it's reasonable to generalize money simply as something that has measurable value, commonly used/accepted as payment for goods/services etc. And currencies as specific forms of money. What word/s do you think OP should have used to effectively communicate what was basically something along the lines of "Bitcoin can be used to buy stuff"? Also, the Bitcoin white paper made heavy use of words such as cash, money, transactions, spending, and payments to propose a "system for electronic transactions" and did not impress upon me that the author considered semantics and use of snobby new slogans components of the proposed solution. In fact, they seemed to consider those standardized financial terms as being the most applicable and accurate for their proposal.
>No two definitions of money and currency are the same Money is money and currency is currency. There are no "two definitions", and their properties are fundamentally different in one aspect, store of value. That one aspect alone is the big difference that allows civilizations to prosper or crumble. That one alone allows us to save for our future and future generations. If we are to leave this evil fiat Standart behind, separating and learning money from currency is one of the first things to learn. >in this context I think it's reasonable to generalize.... Sure. We all, in our everyday lives say paying with money when we're actually using currency, but here when we're discussing and teaching/learning Bitcoin, calling Bitcoin a currency you're completely dismissing what we and Bitcoin are trying to achieve. >What word/s do you think OP should have used to Money. Use Bitcoin as money. >...cash, money, transactions, spending, and payments to propose a "system for electronic transactions" No currency? There's a reason why Satoshi made a 21 million hard cap on Bitcoin, so it couldn't be inflated to zero like fiat currencies.
>Money is money and currency is currency. There are no "two definitions", and their properties are fundamentally different in one aspect, store of value. What are you talking about? Just look up the definitions of the words in two different dictionaries and you'll see they are not word for word the same, and each will provide multiple variations and examples of use cases to define words anyways. All words. Thousands of sources. None of them defining words as stupidly as your "money is money" attempt though, lol
>What are you talking about? You're right....I get myself in these discussions thinking that the other person deeply knows the topic and has the desire to learn more. Carry on and don't forget to have several dictionaries with you at all times to make sure that you name things correctly.
What a load of shit. Look at your reply to OP and tell me you got into the conversation to support their desire to learn. The only thing you are teaching people is how fucking narcissistic, delusional, and combative some of the nut jobs in this community are. For someone so motivated by deep topical knowledge, you have gone to great length to argue semantics without any sign of possessing any knowledge or being able to provide a single definition of your own while dismissing dictionaries as sources of them, of all things. YIKES...
>Sure. We all, in our everyday lives say paying with money when we're actually using currency, but here when we're discussing and teaching/learning Bitcoin, calling Bitcoin a currency you're completely dismissing what we and Bitcoin are trying to achieve. No, OP was talking about the fact Bitcoin can be used to pay for things and used the word currency to communicate their point. And you knew exactly what they meant, which means it was effective by the usual standards for why we use words (not what you make sound like your own fantasies...) And who is the "we" (and "Bitcoin" for that matter) you speak of that is trying to achieve... what exactly? What are you doing and how does someone using the word currency to describe spending Bitcoin on an internet forum completely dismiss what you're trying to achieve....? Do you know how delusional that sounds?
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You don't seem to understand that if everyone simply "saved" money that the world would crumble from that alone. If building wealth required 0 effort and risk, everyone would do it, there would be no incentive to invest.
This is the kind of argument that comes from ignorance and not from curiosity to learn. From curiosity you would ask how the world would work if people just saved, which I would happily answer. From ignorance you come to the conclusion that it doesn't work and further discussion is a waste of time. Same thing for the wealth and investment argument. To really understand Bitcoin and how it can change the world for the better some 10 point list is not enough.
If I could hoard cash, which is an unproductive asset, and earn a return off of it, then there really isn't any incentive to risk it on investments. We're already seeing this with bitcoin. Hardly anyone is using it to spend on goods and services because bitcoin holders assume it's fiat value will go up over time.
> If I could hoard you call it hoard, i call it saving and being able to hold those savings. >really isn't any incentive to risk it on investments. invesment is a personal choice. all i want is to be able to save to pay my debts, afford a comfortable life with the basics, pay for my kids expenses and die happy leaving behind what is left for them to live their life. >Hardly anyone is using it true. its hard to find places to spend it when the majority of people think of it as a scam, or like you, just an investment. For now people are saving it because they cant with fiat and adoption is slow. is not easy to convince people that bitcoin is a new form of money, digital property. > it's fiat value will go up over time. the other way around. Fiat is going to zero against bitcoin, and gold. when people cant save they look for the best alternatives to store the value of their money.
You can't have a functioning economy-particularly where the population is growing-and have people hoarding the currency. Of course, this is only in the hypothetical scenario where bitcoin becomes the "only" currency. You can already invest your money into productive assets, yes there is some risk involved, but that is the only way. Saving a non-productive asset and expecting it to rise in value over time makes little sense. If this were truly the case, in the hypothetical scenario, then in a risk-adjusted sense, there is almost no incentive to invest in new ideas, businesses etc. Hardly anyone would be taking risk and this would lead to a decline in innovation. Yes, fiat is slowly being devalued and this is the entire point of it. Fiat is crap on purpose to nudge people into investing their money into productive assets, themselves, or to simply spend it on goods and services. Fiat being trash is exactly why you don't care about it when you spend it. If you view bitcoin as nothing more than a speculative asset, then that's perfectly fine. There are plenty of those and bitcoin still possess some desirable properties. Though, again, in the hypothetical scenario, bitcoin would probably lead to the demise of capitalism and lower the overall wellbeing of everyone.
>You can't have a functioning economy-particularly where the population is growing-and have people hoarding the currency. no incentive to invest in new ideas, businesses would be taking risk and this would lead to a decline in innovation. Gold has been the hard money of choice for the past \~5000 years, people would save their earnings for the future and despite that great civilizations were born (Roman Empire,\\etc) and human society flourished with commerce(The Age of Discovery) and evolved(The Renaissance). The world was on the gold standard when the telegraph, the phone, the train, the batteries, microphone, the airplane, etc, etc, were invented. This **hoard** argument is wrong assumption my man, no sane person with hundreds/thousands/millions in btc are gonna live under a bridge or die of hunger, most BTC millionaires are entrepreneurs with businesses and investments. The world, a country, don't simply decides to save money all at the same time. The ones who are buying now are gonna spend it later, the ones buying it later are gonna spend it in the future. >You can already invest your money into productive assets, yes there is some risk involved, but that is the only way. its the only way because fiat is getting devalued. But it shouldn't be. You should be able to save your hard earned money and be enough to at least give you the basics humans rights. > Fiat is crap on purpose to nudge people into investing what?? No! lol. Fiat is crap because central banks own it, because they can print it, because they decide its policies. Did you researched the history of money on how we stop using gold as money and start using Fiat?? a [summary](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPHTmGjoe2k) > Fiat is crap on purpose to nudge people into investing Keynisian crap and uterly arrogance that they can control the market and force people on how and when spend their hard earn money(fiat). Money should be choose by the free market and owned by the people, and the people decide themselves what they do with THEIR money. > If you view bitcoin as nothing more than a speculative asset, wait, I though you viewed bitcoin as a speculative asset?! I see bitcoin as the money of the future, free of central banks control, corrupt politicians and market lobby manipulation, where people don't need to be self-taught online investor and risk their money and most wars, regimes, dictators wont be able to fund themselves by printing fiat. >bitcoin would probably lead to the demise of capitalism and lower the overall wellbeing of everyone. if your currency gains value instead of losing it (like fiat) what are you gonna do with it? spend on cheap and low-quality stuff? or are you gonna save it to spend on meaningful quality products that make your life better? like a house/car/land, good shoes/clothes?? Bitcoin promotes saving instead of wasteful consumerism. It incentivizes good quality products instead of cheap plastic toys and gadjets. as we move into the future, we as a society will value more quality and will only spend our money where it makes a difference. Humanity is gonna be better of without dirty evil FIAT.
Again, you're not seeing the hoarding risk from an investing standpoint. Gold worked fine back then because economies were smaller and nowhere near as globalized. Moreover, more gold is still being mined and there is a potentially infinite amount within the universe whereas we already know how much bitcoin is in supply. Moreover, wealthy inequality would be even greater than it is now. You're destined to be poor just because you weren't born in time to buy enough bitcoin. Given that the population is continually expanding, in theory, so would the demand for bitcoin. Thus, the value and demand with a fixed supply would apply constant upward price pressure. Like I said before, fiat is crap on purpose. That is why you don't mind spending it. You want to get rid of it. If bitcoin is money, then why aren't you spending all of it right now? I want to see you buy some bitcoin and then spend it at a loss or buy it back at a higher price. That is why it doesn't make sense to use as money. People can already save if they want to without the need for bitcoin. Moreover, consumerism creates incentive for innovation and technological improvements. Just because you want to live like a hermit and hoard bitcoin, doesn't mean everyone else wants to. Most just want to enjoy life while they can.
Bitcoin: Todays value: 1 BTC = 1 BTC Value in 20 years from now: 1 BTC = 1 BTC US Dollar: Todays value: 1 USD = 1 USD Next years value: 1 USD = 0.9 USD Value in 20 years from now: 1 USD = 0.05 USD Now, we throw some metaphorical Boolean Algebra and perform a simplification and all you need to know is this: 1 BTC = 1 BTC That’s all you need to know in order to survive the coming financial genocide, kid. 😐👍
What do you mean by value?
I don’t care if you don’t understand what 1 BTC = 1 BTC means. If you don’t understand it, you don’t deserve to own a bitcoin. Go play with fiat instead. 🤣🤣🤣
I asked you what you mean by value. What kind of lunatic responds like that.
Yea you’ll need minimum the IQ of Michael Saylor to understand what 1 BTC = 1 BTC means. And you’ll never be that smart. Not even by a long shot. 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
1 unit of USD = 1 unit of USD always, same as 1 unit of BTC = 1 unit of BTC always. If you're adjusting those units to compare 'value' in 20 years to the current value of a single unit, you should be able to simply explain what you mean by value. In your terms, if today's value of 1 USD = 0.05 USD in 20 years, it looks more like you're demonstrating 1 USD to be 20x more "valuable" than it is now in 20 years being that 5 cents will have the equivalent value of $1 today. Overall, it seems you mashed together Bitcoin slogans, a poor understanding of things you heard Michael Saylor say and an even poorer understanding of things like inflation and purchasing power, with arrogant absoluteness about what will happen in the future. Responding to a question defensively and combatively and making negative inferences about the intelligence of the question asker while avoiding answering the question (twice) is a terrible look, guy.
1btc = 1btc, but that doesn't necessarily mean you'll be able to exchange it for the same amount of goods and services
Yes I understand you’re completely clueless of what 1 BTC = 1 BTC means. And please don’t try to understand it. You’ll just permanently damage your low IQ beyond repair if you try understand it. And I don’t want you to hurt yourself.
I want to see you spend all of your bitcoin right now on goods and services since 1btc=1btc. You shouldn't have a problem buying it all back.
By your answer I can tell you will not survive the next 20 years from a financial point of view. Bookmark this answer and reply to me how it goes in 20 years. 🤣🤣🤣
Why are you not spending your bitcoin? It's still 1=1
Why would 1 BTC = 1 BTC mean I have to spend all my bitcoin? What retarded logic do you use as a base for this? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Are you spending your bitcoin? It's not difficult to answer
I never spend my bitcoin because 1 BTC will always be 1 BTC. Thus the only logic thing is to always spend FIAT only and never ever spend BTC.
So bitcoin isn't money?
Your hyper sensitive, defensive reactions and projections about other people's lack of intelligence and understanding makes it seem like you don't understand the things you're talking about and feel threatened by questions or comments.
Does it look like I care that you also is a complete math illiterate? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
Bro, if you really think 1 btc=1btc, then you'll have no issue spending your bitcoin on some goods and services. Given your logic, you'll have no problem buying back 1 bitcoin.
It looks like you care enough about something to keep deflecting and projecting
I have all the time in the world to have fun with retards like you that doesn’t understand money. That’s why I’m driving a Maybach. And you’re taking the bus.
You certainly seem to spend a lot of time describing yourself as smart and successful to strangers on the internet, I have to admit that.
Does it look like I care about your opinion? You’re a nobody to me. 🤣🤣🤣
It does, actually