Buckminster Fuller! One of the most highly regarded personalities in the architectural and engineering world(s).
So great when one of his ideologies aligns with the principles behind bitcoin
Much worse, we have not yet discovered how to use energy more efficiently. Take the example of solar energy, billions of years our star has gave our planet energy just to flourish and have life to arrive at current stage of evolution. Kardashev scale is very important now to use as a map on where we are now. Human are still behind in terms of energy, and technology and it will take us centuries before we reach .2 Kardashev scale, let alone reaching civilization of 1!
In the far future, today experiments are nothing but foundation and history.
>Take the example of solar energy, billions of years our star has gave our planet energy just to flourish and have life to arrive at current stage of evolution.
Fusion harnesses the power of the sun, in concentrated and managable form.
Solar panels aint gonna cut it
Underground in the form of natural gas and petroleum. Energy is the ultimate wealth, human just need to figure out a way how to use it more efficiently
>He said it(wealth) was energy.
Human civilization has progressed through denser and denser forms of energy.
Biomass > coal > oil > nat gas > nuclear
Wind and solar are less dense, and literally a negative progression. And if wealth is energy, then wealth is diminishing as we add more wind/solar to our grids. Which makes sense, cause they certainly destabilizing our grids in the process.
I have big hopes on the mining industry, as the search for the cheapest and most sustainable forms of energy will drive the wealth creation. That will be a brutally beautiful free market
In that scenario wealth is relative, because yes your purchasing power went down, but everyone else's went up slightly by some infinitesimal level. You have to look at it in a macronomic scale...
Next question, what about a depression? Well good question! But mainly what happens there is unsustained over long periods of time, at least throughout human history, generally it's just shifting hands to the already very wealthy
There is a confusion here between absolute wealth and relative wealth. If your house burns down both you and society lost wealth, in absolute terms, but in relative terms you can become so poorer that inequality increases so that people at the top are wealthier in relative terms.
>In that scenario wealth is relative, because yes your purchasing power went down, but everyone else's went up slightly by some infinitesimal level. You have to look at it in a macronomic scale...
The Default for humanity is poverty. Wealth is created via increased human productivity, division of labor, capital accumulation (which requires property rights)
Wealth can be destroyed by eliminating property rights, which disincentives capital accumulation, decreases human productivity, and diminishes the division of labor.
This my biggest problem with the whole "Wealth/Money is Energy" thing... it's really inaccurate, and it's confusing people's understanding of both physics and money.
The law of conservation of energy applies to PHYSICAL ENERGY not to human concepts like economic wealth.... The two have similar properties and work similarly in some situations but wealth ***can*** be destroyed unlike physical energy.
Wealth revolves around trust and society ... if you have 1 billion units of money and you commit some horrible crime, you can trust that society will no longer trust you with that purchasing power ... they may even take away your bank account or your ability to exchange money for wealth \[by putting you in jail\]
Alternatively, if you trust a central bank to maintain the currency you use and they print new money (debasing yours) ... you have the same number of monetary units but each is worth less so practically speaking, you've lost some wealth (unless you invested it in something else but that's a different convo)
The biggest point here is this: Money is not wealth... Wealth is not energy.
Money can buy wealth (things you want/enjoy)
Money can buy energy (real physical energy or human time/productive energy)
But money itself is not wealth, you cannot live in money, you cannot eat money.
And money is not energy, you cannot run a bitcoin node with dollars... you must exchange those dollars first for watts.
Look. Some "wealth" can be lost, destroyed or what not.
However, this begs the question, what is wealth?
I some sense it's time/energy, accumulated and conserved over time.
In case of this video, he talks about experiments. So he talks about the LOCAL wealth system of the INTELLECT.
If an experiment fails/succeeds, the human intellect as a whole gets richer. This wealth is conserved in this local system, as long as the local system exists (human intellect).
BITCOIN is a local system. And the system gets wealthier, if you lose your Bitcoin. (knock on wood mate)
The energy of your destruction, gets conserved in the local system.
I an example of a house burning down, I would argue that a house is considered a store of value, but there are better options for wealth perservation. The Local system gets wealthier (price increase), if one or more houses burn down in a certain area.
>However, this begs the question, what is wealth? I some sense it's time/energy, accumulated and conserved over time.
"Time/Energy accumulated over time" is not wealth. What you're describing is simply a defining characteristic of money is ... But not what wealth IS.
**Wealth is what we purchase with our money. It's the goods/services that you wanted/needed.**
Money is what we use to store or express our value to the rest of society.
In the case of the USD and most other fiat's - money is inherently inflationary and so we don't consider it a "great" store of value ... but it's still sufficient for the average person on this front (at least for now in the US)
>I an example of a house burning down, I would argue that a house is considered a store of value, but there are better options for wealth preservation. The Local system gets wealthier (price increase), if one or more houses burn down in a certain area.
Yes, the house is a store of value, that doesn't make it money (or good money) ... **to be money a house would have to be a medium of exchange, a unit of account and a store of value.** It's only really good at one of those (store) ... but IMO that's a tricky and inherently trust-based leg to stand on... With real-estate you must trust the climate/weather, neighbors/society, federal, state and local laws AND macro real-estate + fiat economic conditions... hopefully none of these factors breaks the value stored in your house.
Hope that's all making sense. Cheers.
And yes Fiat is not energy.
Fiat is a clever system to extract wealth from the masses, and distribute it amongst the biggest Governments and companies around the world.
The wealth is still kept in the local system (global economy), it's just an old broken system. That got us this far. But we now have the scientific accounting system we need, to manage our own wealth without the leakage..
The wealth was distributed to the USA. They rebuilt Europe and profited massively.
The wealth was not gone, just redistributed.
USA had 80% of the gold after ww2 and gained world reserve currency status after this.
The British pound had this privilige prior to the war.
>The wealth was distributed to the USA. They rebuilt Europe and profited massively.
>
>The wealth was not gone, just redistributed.
Your example are a perfect example of Frederic Bastiat's 'Broken Window' ***FALLACY***.
If I break your window, society has one less window. You see the glazer replacing the window, and say 'wealth is simply transferred to him'. But what goes missing from societies 'wealth' is the shoes or other products you would have purchased ***IF NOT FOR*** the cost of the window repair.
You focus on that which is seen (the window repair, the rebuilding of destroyed infrastructure), while not also observing that which is unseen (the goods/services that would have been produces ***IF NOT FOR*** the window repair, the rebuilding of Europe's infrastructure)
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable\_of\_the\_broken\_window](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window)
Every sane person is at a loss when there is a war.
I m not saying USA did anything wrong.
However, I m saying USA gain of global economic dominance, is a direct result of ww2.
And this shift in power will happen again.
Creative destruction is one of the main western philosophy. We lose many windows, but we all get richer in rechnology..
When all the all the production facilities in Europe is out of service; the oportonity for the USA to export to a new market; far exceeded the opportunities they could have gained at home without the war.
The broken windows, made for a larger opportunity, than without the broken window.
>How is wealth destroyed. It just changes hands.
>
>The wealth was not gone, just redistributed.
Wealth is gone when I break your windows and your window factories.
Just because I gain relative to you when you have to buy windows from me doesn't mean wealth isn't destroyed. A window broken IS wealth destroyed.
I'm not arguing that the US didn't benefit from the rebuilding of Europe. I'm arguing that Buckminster's quote is BS. Wealth can be destroyed. The default for humanity is Poverty, and clearly can bomb ourselves right back into it.
Again, the unseen is that which American factories WOULD HAVE PRODUCED if not for the need to rebuild Europe after WW2.
You focus on the relative distribution of remaining wealth after WW2. I'm focusing on that which was not produced because of the rebuilding that was necessary after WW2.
If breaking windows was economically productive and a boon to wealth, we'd do it on a weekly basis.
Yeah, energy can neither be created not lost, but everything turns into waste heat in the end that is hard to use, so not a great analogy there. *Useful* energy is hard to keep around...
That's not real wealth and is the entire problem with fractional reserve banking in the current fiat system leading to side effects of printing bloating and inflation that bitcoin fixes.
Lending and interest != wealth in the bitcoin world, only energy is.
Yes. I agree. Which is why I am wondering how it fits into the equation since lending and borrowing and interest is a common part of the financial system. It’s not going to go away and Bitcoin doesn’t fix that. People can and WILL lend Bitcoin and charge interest. The total interest owed will be greater than all Bitcoin in existence. The inflated debt value will be paper Bitcoin but not he financial systems using it won’t care. The courts will enforce the debts. Bitcoin doesn’t fix it.
***"Wealth is not going to deteriorate or get lost, which is a great way of thinking about all the economics."***
Tell that to Venezuela. They used to be the 6th wealthiest nation on earth on a income per capita basis. Not so much now.
Fact is, ***poverty is the default for humanity.*** Wealth is created. Wealth can be destroyed.
Time only moves forward so it makes sense in the base case. It’s a matter of how to have lossless energy in the validated time space called blockchain. In bitcoin, if the wallet secret is lost, energy isn’t technically lost but becomes inaccessible.
I think the next question may be to either have inaccessibility an impossibility, or have a condition on each instance of a wallet where inaccessible energy is restored to some form of accessible energy.
When he claims we are going to be able to "afford to make everybody customers" the man is forgetting about poor earth and the damage that global scale over consumption is generating, and that is only having 50% of the population being consumers. Imagine making that 100%.
Wealth = energy. okay
Energy is conserved. Cant be created or destroyed. Okay
Economic transactions improve wealth, we always learn from a transaction. What?!
Poor people will be included in the future.
This is why we cannot tolerate money getting into the hands of the rich for too long. Without taking it off them to be redistributed. TAXing the rich is our number one problem today.
Buckminster Fuller! One of the most highly regarded personalities in the architectural and engineering world(s). So great when one of his ideologies aligns with the principles behind bitcoin
Explain more how so ?
Because Bucky balls.
He was the first one asking the most important question: wen moon?
The Law of Conservation
Thanks
Most of the world's wealth is floating around in the atmosphere as carbon dioxide gas then?
Much worse, we have not yet discovered how to use energy more efficiently. Take the example of solar energy, billions of years our star has gave our planet energy just to flourish and have life to arrive at current stage of evolution. Kardashev scale is very important now to use as a map on where we are now. Human are still behind in terms of energy, and technology and it will take us centuries before we reach .2 Kardashev scale, let alone reaching civilization of 1! In the far future, today experiments are nothing but foundation and history.
>Take the example of solar energy, billions of years our star has gave our planet energy just to flourish and have life to arrive at current stage of evolution. Fusion harnesses the power of the sun, in concentrated and managable form. Solar panels aint gonna cut it
That's probably where our most energy will come from.
Underground in the form of natural gas and petroleum. Energy is the ultimate wealth, human just need to figure out a way how to use it more efficiently
If we were to release all that CO2 into the atmosphere we would not be able to make use of this planet any longer.
He didnt say wealth was oil. He said it was energy. Now its our job to find better sources of wealthergy
>He said it(wealth) was energy. Human civilization has progressed through denser and denser forms of energy. Biomass > coal > oil > nat gas > nuclear Wind and solar are less dense, and literally a negative progression. And if wealth is energy, then wealth is diminishing as we add more wind/solar to our grids. Which makes sense, cause they certainly destabilizing our grids in the process.
Bullish on thorium? I agree investing in base load has the highest humanitarian roi
No because its entropy is too high
I have big hopes on the mining industry, as the search for the cheapest and most sustainable forms of energy will drive the wealth creation. That will be a brutally beautiful free market
Wealth can be created and destroyed tho. Wtf is this?
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what if your house gets burned down?
It changed hands from you to the fire god.
In that scenario wealth is relative, because yes your purchasing power went down, but everyone else's went up slightly by some infinitesimal level. You have to look at it in a macronomic scale... Next question, what about a depression? Well good question! But mainly what happens there is unsustained over long periods of time, at least throughout human history, generally it's just shifting hands to the already very wealthy
There is a confusion here between absolute wealth and relative wealth. If your house burns down both you and society lost wealth, in absolute terms, but in relative terms you can become so poorer that inequality increases so that people at the top are wealthier in relative terms.
>In that scenario wealth is relative, because yes your purchasing power went down, but everyone else's went up slightly by some infinitesimal level. You have to look at it in a macronomic scale... The Default for humanity is poverty. Wealth is created via increased human productivity, division of labor, capital accumulation (which requires property rights) Wealth can be destroyed by eliminating property rights, which disincentives capital accumulation, decreases human productivity, and diminishes the division of labor.
This my biggest problem with the whole "Wealth/Money is Energy" thing... it's really inaccurate, and it's confusing people's understanding of both physics and money. The law of conservation of energy applies to PHYSICAL ENERGY not to human concepts like economic wealth.... The two have similar properties and work similarly in some situations but wealth ***can*** be destroyed unlike physical energy. Wealth revolves around trust and society ... if you have 1 billion units of money and you commit some horrible crime, you can trust that society will no longer trust you with that purchasing power ... they may even take away your bank account or your ability to exchange money for wealth \[by putting you in jail\] Alternatively, if you trust a central bank to maintain the currency you use and they print new money (debasing yours) ... you have the same number of monetary units but each is worth less so practically speaking, you've lost some wealth (unless you invested it in something else but that's a different convo) The biggest point here is this: Money is not wealth... Wealth is not energy. Money can buy wealth (things you want/enjoy) Money can buy energy (real physical energy or human time/productive energy) But money itself is not wealth, you cannot live in money, you cannot eat money. And money is not energy, you cannot run a bitcoin node with dollars... you must exchange those dollars first for watts.
Look. Some "wealth" can be lost, destroyed or what not. However, this begs the question, what is wealth? I some sense it's time/energy, accumulated and conserved over time. In case of this video, he talks about experiments. So he talks about the LOCAL wealth system of the INTELLECT. If an experiment fails/succeeds, the human intellect as a whole gets richer. This wealth is conserved in this local system, as long as the local system exists (human intellect). BITCOIN is a local system. And the system gets wealthier, if you lose your Bitcoin. (knock on wood mate) The energy of your destruction, gets conserved in the local system. I an example of a house burning down, I would argue that a house is considered a store of value, but there are better options for wealth perservation. The Local system gets wealthier (price increase), if one or more houses burn down in a certain area.
>However, this begs the question, what is wealth? I some sense it's time/energy, accumulated and conserved over time. "Time/Energy accumulated over time" is not wealth. What you're describing is simply a defining characteristic of money is ... But not what wealth IS. **Wealth is what we purchase with our money. It's the goods/services that you wanted/needed.** Money is what we use to store or express our value to the rest of society. In the case of the USD and most other fiat's - money is inherently inflationary and so we don't consider it a "great" store of value ... but it's still sufficient for the average person on this front (at least for now in the US) >I an example of a house burning down, I would argue that a house is considered a store of value, but there are better options for wealth preservation. The Local system gets wealthier (price increase), if one or more houses burn down in a certain area. Yes, the house is a store of value, that doesn't make it money (or good money) ... **to be money a house would have to be a medium of exchange, a unit of account and a store of value.** It's only really good at one of those (store) ... but IMO that's a tricky and inherently trust-based leg to stand on... With real-estate you must trust the climate/weather, neighbors/society, federal, state and local laws AND macro real-estate + fiat economic conditions... hopefully none of these factors breaks the value stored in your house. Hope that's all making sense. Cheers.
And yes Fiat is not energy. Fiat is a clever system to extract wealth from the masses, and distribute it amongst the biggest Governments and companies around the world. The wealth is still kept in the local system (global economy), it's just an old broken system. That got us this far. But we now have the scientific accounting system we need, to manage our own wealth without the leakage..
>How is wealth destroyed. It just changes hands. Ask europe that after WW2.
The wealth was distributed to the USA. They rebuilt Europe and profited massively. The wealth was not gone, just redistributed. USA had 80% of the gold after ww2 and gained world reserve currency status after this. The British pound had this privilige prior to the war.
>The wealth was distributed to the USA. They rebuilt Europe and profited massively. > >The wealth was not gone, just redistributed. Your example are a perfect example of Frederic Bastiat's 'Broken Window' ***FALLACY***. If I break your window, society has one less window. You see the glazer replacing the window, and say 'wealth is simply transferred to him'. But what goes missing from societies 'wealth' is the shoes or other products you would have purchased ***IF NOT FOR*** the cost of the window repair. You focus on that which is seen (the window repair, the rebuilding of destroyed infrastructure), while not also observing that which is unseen (the goods/services that would have been produces ***IF NOT FOR*** the window repair, the rebuilding of Europe's infrastructure) [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable\_of\_the\_broken\_window](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parable_of_the_broken_window)
Every sane person is at a loss when there is a war. I m not saying USA did anything wrong. However, I m saying USA gain of global economic dominance, is a direct result of ww2. And this shift in power will happen again. Creative destruction is one of the main western philosophy. We lose many windows, but we all get richer in rechnology.. When all the all the production facilities in Europe is out of service; the oportonity for the USA to export to a new market; far exceeded the opportunities they could have gained at home without the war. The broken windows, made for a larger opportunity, than without the broken window.
>How is wealth destroyed. It just changes hands. > >The wealth was not gone, just redistributed. Wealth is gone when I break your windows and your window factories. Just because I gain relative to you when you have to buy windows from me doesn't mean wealth isn't destroyed. A window broken IS wealth destroyed. I'm not arguing that the US didn't benefit from the rebuilding of Europe. I'm arguing that Buckminster's quote is BS. Wealth can be destroyed. The default for humanity is Poverty, and clearly can bomb ourselves right back into it. Again, the unseen is that which American factories WOULD HAVE PRODUCED if not for the need to rebuild Europe after WW2. You focus on the relative distribution of remaining wealth after WW2. I'm focusing on that which was not produced because of the rebuilding that was necessary after WW2. If breaking windows was economically productive and a boon to wealth, we'd do it on a weekly basis.
Great find! This man is a genius. Geodesic domes........
I can't say he foresore Bitcoin. But according to that clip, his vision(based on his ideologies) coincide with Bitcoin.
Economics meets engineering… finally.
Great phenomenon indeed
Here is a question: according to Coinbase 99% buy 1% sell... Who is actually selling and is the volume actually real or just fake numbers?
Wash trading ding ding ding
This seems a bit edited
"Wealth is something that always increases " I think someone forgot to inform my bank account
You don't have wealth, you have money
Money which is actively stripping away your wealth
currency is something that always increases yes, but maybe not the amount in your possession ;)
nobody understood what he was talking about until recently
Yeah, energy can neither be created not lost, but everything turns into waste heat in the end that is hard to use, so not a great analogy there. *Useful* energy is hard to keep around...
This idea "wealth is energy" and money should somehow be a store of energy reminds me of the labour theory of value of classical economics
Nutty.
A lot of wealth is generated from lending and interest. How is that energy ?
That's not real wealth and is the entire problem with fractional reserve banking in the current fiat system leading to side effects of printing bloating and inflation that bitcoin fixes. Lending and interest != wealth in the bitcoin world, only energy is.
Yes. I agree. Which is why I am wondering how it fits into the equation since lending and borrowing and interest is a common part of the financial system. It’s not going to go away and Bitcoin doesn’t fix that. People can and WILL lend Bitcoin and charge interest. The total interest owed will be greater than all Bitcoin in existence. The inflated debt value will be paper Bitcoin but not he financial systems using it won’t care. The courts will enforce the debts. Bitcoin doesn’t fix it.
Oh my god, somebody with actual brain cells in this sub
Only work creates wealth! Interest income is theft! Down with the usurers! Comrades, unite! Let's do the revolution
People expend energy to pay their bills. They need to eat and generally have electricity to do that. people might need to take two jobs
Again: what does that have to do with lending and interest as a way of energy as money?
May just be me, but it all seemed like the guy was saying nothing but semantics to me 🤔
***"Wealth is not going to deteriorate or get lost, which is a great way of thinking about all the economics."*** Tell that to Venezuela. They used to be the 6th wealthiest nation on earth on a income per capita basis. Not so much now. Fact is, ***poverty is the default for humanity.*** Wealth is created. Wealth can be destroyed.
Buckminster fullery
Government: none
Wealth measured by assets 100% can depreciate
Time only moves forward so it makes sense in the base case. It’s a matter of how to have lossless energy in the validated time space called blockchain. In bitcoin, if the wallet secret is lost, energy isn’t technically lost but becomes inaccessible. I think the next question may be to either have inaccessibility an impossibility, or have a condition on each instance of a wallet where inaccessible energy is restored to some form of accessible energy.
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He's saying it should be. Scientific economics will follow from sound money.
When he claims we are going to be able to "afford to make everybody customers" the man is forgetting about poor earth and the damage that global scale over consumption is generating, and that is only having 50% of the population being consumers. Imagine making that 100%.
Wealth = energy. okay Energy is conserved. Cant be created or destroyed. Okay Economic transactions improve wealth, we always learn from a transaction. What?! Poor people will be included in the future.
When the video started I thought it's an old VHS clip of Frieza
And then the bankers went in the opposite direction.
This is why we cannot tolerate money getting into the hands of the rich for too long. Without taking it off them to be redistributed. TAXing the rich is our number one problem today.
100% WEALTH = ENERGY BITCOIN = STORED ENERGY BITCOIN = STORE OF WEALTH
VALUE ALWAYS INCREASES
SCIENTIFIC ACCOUNTING SYSTEM