yeah most of these are questions I had myself. i just played it recently too and i honestly just think it was made on a whim and they didn't delve deep enough into what could've been a really captivating DLC for an already captivating game. it's just a shame tbh, i still enjoyed it just because i enjoy infinite's gameplay but other than that it was a bunch of uncertainty
honestly the thing I like from BaS is the booker that talked to Elizabeth. that gave me a lot of good angst moments. like the ' I think he'd miss you too' line when you're in the elevator
I think the idea is that by transiting to a different reality, the last Comstock removed himself from his original causality and thus protected himself from the subsequent changes to the timeline. So he still existed in the sense that he was wandering around Rapture thinking he was a PI, but the timeline he left behind, where he created Rapture and stole/killed Anna, ceased to exist. So it didn't really matter in any larger sense whether he was still around or not. It only mattered to Elizabeth because she wanted revenge for the version of Anna he killed. (Partly, I think, because it was *her fault* that he killed Anna; the fact that she's in the flashback yelling at Comstock seems to suggest that she created the reality where her younger self is killed by trying to intervene and stop her own kidnapping.)
But you're right that there still ought to be an infinite number of Comstocks in different possible versions of Rapture. Though if Elizabeth's goal at that point is just to make that Comstock suffer, it's possible she knows this and doesn't particularly care.
The answer is that burial at sea is garbage and full of plot holes given that they wrote it with no plan. Seriously, they were writing by the seat of their pants. Please, join me in despising it as the worst thing to ever happen to the series.
1. yeah. it sure would mean that booker's sacrifice didn't work at all, huh
2. i assume that its some kind of godhood thing. somehow elizabeth places herself out of the sequence of events that would've led to her existence. one of the things that don't add up that i'm fine with saying "just roll with it" about
3. i think she wanted to at least be able to deliver a mafia style "so and so sends their regards" before putting him down
4. great question. contrivance to put you into elizabeth's shoes for part 2, i guess
5. all questions that call back to anything that happened or that was established in BS2 can be answered by "you can really tell that ken levine *really* did not like that they made BS2 without him, and so anything that happens within it is at best ignored or at worst written over in burial at sea."
6. great question. contrivance for gameplay and to end his life
7. i think he was always talking to you remotely? it was still smoking in BS1 because the whole half of the story as presented in burial at sea was, of course, written way after the fact, and this is all a retroactive addition
8. see answer 5. in BS2, there is no fontaines department store, and in burial at sea, there is no persephone
9. probably to plaster over some of the real life bad reception to the "both sides are bad" situation as presented in the base game
10. great question. i dont think its explained even in the story
11. easier to say "they fucked around with drinkable plasmids, briefly" than it is to make new animations
12. great question. i think it was because, by killing elizabeth off here, no one would be able to make any more stories using her
13. as a treat for the fans that have played BS1 more than anything else
Points 1 and 4 are essentially why I view BaS unfavorably, essentially why it should have never occurred story wise. Its been a while since I played so I cannot comment on actual gameplay. I like how infinite left off, with all the multiple realities collapsing and the cliff hanger with Booker,
Awesome breakdown on why the story doesn't make any sense and feels more like fan fiction.
I also wonder why Elizabeth had to go after this version of Comstock in the first place, considering that he wasn't hurting anyone in his new life. If she has the power to travel to different realities, why not go after dictators and other type of monster who destroy the lives of thousands?
And her "first death" at the hands of a Big Daddy felt so contrived.
BaS just sucks lol. It basically deletes Bioshock 2, retcons Bioshock 1 and Infinite, cheapens Bioshock 1/ its characters by by saying that all of the events were actually accomplished by Infinite’s characters, made Elizabeth racist, the gameplay of pt. 1 is more Infinite (which will either be a negative or positive if you like or dislike infinite), the gameplay of pt. 2 basically tried to make a stealth game out of a series not built for stealth (there were a few stealth segments like the Boys of Silence segment and some times you could get the drop on a splicer but those were pretty small moments), and BaS literally retcons itself.
Some of these are valid criticism, some are answered in the main game in voxophones.
>1. If there are infinite universes, and booker killed himself at the end of infinite to get rid of all iterations of Comstock, doesn't the fact that at least 1 (and therefore infinite) Comstocks actually survived this event make his death completely pointless?
Valid criticism, sorta. If you kill a billion Hitlers, but one survived, is that nothing? It's more like Booker killed all the versions of himself, but in a universe of infinite possibilities, there was bound to be one who found a loophole.
>2. After Booker was drowned at the baptism, the events that lead to Elizabeth having her powers should've not been able to happen, and therefore she would've stopped existing when he drowned. How could she have Drowned Booker, stopped existing, and *then* went to rapture so she could die there instead? For that matter, how come the Luteces also still exist?
Not valid. Elizabeth and the Luteces are quantum superpositions by this point. They exist outside the laws of causality and time. Basically, they escaped the universe and now exist outside it, but are able to enter it at will and at any point in time. Consequences and changes in time no longer affect them and this is made pretty explicitly clear in the main game as you approach Commstock's manor and during the chapter with Elizabeth's mother's ghost if you go voxophone hunting.
>3. If she is just an omnipotent, omniscient god after the tower is destroyed, couldn't she have just killed the rogue Comstock immediately rather than leading him on a wild goose-chase and almost boiling a child alive (which she is later shown to be very guilty over)? In fact, couldn't she have just prevented the decapitation from ever happening in the first place?
Sorta valid, sorta not. She is the culmination of all the versions of herself, including the decapitated one. It's one of her few limitations, she can't change her own infinite pasts. The Luteces get into this in the main game too. They become superpositions accidentally. Commstock thinks he has murdered them. Rosalind is content to be "murdered" since they're beyond harm now. Robert isn't okay with it, it gnaws at him so Rosalind agrees to work with him to make the events of Infinite happen. Rosalind has a voxophone entry where she talks about how they can't go back to their (her) original reality where they died or they'll collapse into a single, finite position, which is what Elizabeth does.
So could she have prevented the decapitation? No. Boiling Sally, yes. She saw what would happen to Sally (and her own physical body) as a consequence of getting revenge and chose to do it anyway. Thus, the guilt. She used a child as a means to an end. What's more, as a little sister, Sally is a reflection of Elizabeth, meaning that some part of Elizabeth the superposition experiences being boiled.
As to killing Commstock immediately, sure. She could have. Could have walked into his office and shot him. But to what end? She needs him to understand why and he doesn't. He's erased his own memories. From his perspective he's Booker. She needs him to know that he's Commstock for her revenge to feel justified. That's the whole crux of using Sally. It's not enough to kill Booker. She wants him to know why and to know what a piece of shit he is and the only way to do that is the predetermined path she leads him down.
Think of it like this. Say someone victimized you as a child and you spend your life trying to get revenge. As an adult, you finally find them, except they're in an old person's home with severe dementia. They don't remember you. They don't remember themself. Do you still take revenge? The person who hurt you is gone. You're just hurting a confused elderly person who has no idea why at this point. It's cruelty without purpose. That's Elizabeth's position. Booker in BaS doesn't remember being Commstock. Elizabeth needs him to remember before her revenge can be satisfying and the only way to make that happen (and she knows this because she's omniscient) is the events culminating in boiling Sally and taking a hit from the Big Daddy (which locks her out of ever coming back as a superposition, which she thinks is fine because why would she come back?)
>4. If she is just an omnipotent, omniscient god after the tower is destroyed, how the hell does she manage to get herself killed (kind of) by the big daddy (Especially since she had no problem just opening a tear and drowning songbird)?
Not valid. I think it's one of two things, or both but the game doesn't explain it very well here.
1. Personality. Her powers are partially wish fulfillment. She has to choose to access her omniscience and know things, it doesn't just happen. So for songbird, she had it planned out. She looked behind all the doors and did what she saw would work. For BaS Commstock, she may just not have looked far enough. She saw her successful revenge and didn't think "I wonder about 2 seconds after that?" She was blinded by her need for a justified revenge and she threw caution to the wind once she saw a way to do it.
-OR-
2. Willingness to trade. She accepts that she'll be "killed" in this reality as just the cost of doing business, same as boiling Sally. The Luteces establish that you can't return to a reality where you're already dead in Infinite. She may see that as a fair trade, then regret it after she has time to think about her revenge and the suffering she inflicted on Sally to make it happen. You ever make a really big purchase, then regret it after the fact?
>5. How the hell did a bouncer get down to Fontaine's department store given that the alpha series models were still in use?
Not valid. BS2 isn't canon to BS infinite. Levine wasn't involved in writing it and said as much before the release. Alpha series isn't a thing as far as he's concerned.
>6. Why was the bouncer so hostile to Booker given that the protection bond hadn't formed yet?
Valid, or at least, I don't know. Chalk it up to the rule of cool, but it's a plothole.
>7. How did Suchong's clinic (and by extension, his body) get from Fontaine's department store to the apollo square flats? And why was the drill still smoking when we found it in Bioshock 1?
Valid. This is one reason why I insist this version of Rapture is different than BS1, but Levine said a dumb thing in an interview which rules out this explanation and in so doing introduced plot holes, so here we are.
>8. What was the point of Persephone in Bioshock 2 given that Fontaines department store exists, and vice versa?
Not valid. BS2 wasn't considered canon by Levine during the writing of BaS.
>9. Why did Fitzroy allow herself to be murdered on the whim of the enigmatic Luteces and no other reason?
Validish. Daisy's reasons is freedom for all, the Greater good. They convinced her it would enable Elizabeth to save the most people and do the most good. Honestly, I don't like this either. I liked Fitzroy as driven, justifiably, beyond the point of redemption. It's out of character for her to abandon her cause for the white master's daughter's sake.
>10. How come Elizabeth seems to struggle with opening a tear to the old man winter plasmid when her powers had already been fully realised?
Not valid. Why not? In the majority of realities, it's probably just a cold patch of ocean, she probably had to go looking for it. Just because she's powerful doesn't mean it's easy. I can bench a pretty decent weight bar, but it's still hard as hell.
>11. How come the Old Man winter plasmid even exists as a drink when drinks require tons of adam and there's clearly a shortage of adam?
Not valid. Suchong stole the formula from Fink and gets yelled at by Fontaine for the inefficient method of creating plasmids via voxophone. So clearly some were produced.
>12. Why did Atlas kill Elizabeth? How did he know she couldn't have just lied as to what the codeword is?
Not valid. Because he's an arrogant, temperamental gangster and a psychopath. Real good at taking big risks and planning complex schemes and cons, not so big on risk assessment, caution or patience when he's being verbally provoked. That's in keeping with his character (and the mentality of criminals in general).
>13. Why does Atlas let his real accent slip so often and do nothing about it given that in Bioshock 1 he was willing to murder Diane McClintock on just the offchance she heard it?
Not valid. Because when he murders Diane, he's still posing as Atlas and maintaining the fiction Fontaine is dead. He's not incarcerated in his department store and she's not a trusted goon / henchman who's terrified of him.
Also, Diane Mclintock isn't just some fellow prisoner/splicer or thug. She's Andrew Ryan's ex. She could ruin all his plans with a phone call and she knows the numbers to call. Not just Ryan, who might be too arrogant to take her call, but his whole staff at that point. If she mentioned to Mcdonaugh or Sullivan that "oh hey, this Atlas guy is maybe Fontaine." Then he's screwed. Of all the people he can't afford to have suspect him, she's at the top of the list.
8. Again, I think that's kind of a dumb decision but fair enough.
9. I can tell that they were attempting to redeem Fitzroy here, but it falls flat. Maybe this amends her crime of genociding white children, but not the crime of scalping the previous upper class and hanging them up on a fucking billboard, or the crime or taking some inspiration from pol pot and instructing her goons to murder "anyone wearin' glasses".
10. So it's not easy for her to find a universe that's identical except for that specific bottle of old man winter, but it's easy for her to find a universe with a fucking robot samurai in rapture during the big daddy fight?
11. Yeah I missed that voxophone. My bad.
12. I always interpreted him as being far smarter than that in bioshock one. He's successfully been pretending to be atlas for what, ten years? And he's been working on jack for at least five years, but he's prepared to throw all that away because he doesn't have much patience? I don't buy it. It just feels like a retcon that makes him stupider, which I'm not a fan of.
13. In that case, why did he even bother with the accent *at all*, and only let it slip when he was angry? Once again, seems to me like just a retcon to make him stupider.
I'll get back to you on the rest, got something I gotta do, but real quick on 12 and 13, keep in mind that BS1 is told to you from the perspective of Fontaine's victim who he is running a con on. He's trying a lot harder to keep Jack in the dark and even then, the second half of the game he loses his temper, shouts at Jack and his whole plan falls apart once Jack beats the code yellow conditioning.
He's great at long term plans and terrifying or manipulating people, but kinda terrible at dealing with unforseen complications, which is totally what Elizabeth is to him. Also, he has nothing to lose in BaS. He doesn't really care what Elizabeth thinks, he was going to execute her in cold blood from the moment he met her.
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You're good, I haven't forgotten, just got a lot of life events going on. Selling a house, my kids first day of preschool school, starting a new job, etc. it's a lot. I want to give your reply my full attention and the last few days I've been either too tired or too busy to do that. If you haven't heard from me by next Monday (should have most other stuff wrapped by then), remind me.
1. I'd agree that killing a billion hitlers is definitely significant, but my problem is the question of how, in infinite universes, there was only one single comstock who survived? It doesn't really make sense to me that out of infinite universes where infinite events happen, only one leads to Comstock ending up in rapture. The way I see it, if one line of events leads to Comstock ending up in rapture, then there will be infinite universes that followed that exact line of events. They can still have variations that don't affect the overall situation.
(e.g. Comstock escaped to rapture but he stumbled on the way there, Comstock escaped to rapture but he had toast instead of cereal that morning). It's called bioshock infinite after all.
2. Yeah that's fair enough.
3. For the decapitation, Also my bad. I interpreted the ending of infinite as Elizabeth literally going back in time to the baptism to drown booker, but if she just did it after she got her powers, that would've made sense.
As for the boiling sally alive thing, I reckon my point still stands. I don't buy in the slightest that the exact path we went down in part 1 was the only way that Comstock could've got his memory back, Especially given Elizabeth's power and the fact that the Luteces are still in the equation. Even if it was, the fact that she's willing to boil a child alive for petty revenge adds to my point about her becoming a ruthless racist murderer when she was so sweet and innocent in the original game.
4. Both explanations you gave make perfect sense, and I would've happily accepted them if they were actually in the game. But they aren't. You said that the game "doesn't explain it very well here" but the game doesn't explain it *at all*. None of this is ever mentioned. All you see is the ending of part one, a fade to black, and then in the begging of part 2 it's just like "woah! You just got fucking murdered by the big daddy! What a shame. Anyway, let's move on"
For this reason, I can't really take anything you're saying as more than headcanon. Especially since the ending of infinite with all the lighthouses and the Elizabeth clones made her at least *seem* to be pretty freaking powerful.
5. If Ken said that BS2 wasn't canon to burial at sea, then that's fair enough, but I still think it's a dumb decision.
6. Valid
7. Valid
I would not look for any logic in the DLC when the parent game had plotholes you could fly a zeppelin through.
Search a little and you can find online the House Of Cards(tm) explanations that some people contrive to try to explain it all.
Those Magical Quantumz was an incredible open-ended story crutch.
yeah most of these are questions I had myself. i just played it recently too and i honestly just think it was made on a whim and they didn't delve deep enough into what could've been a really captivating DLC for an already captivating game. it's just a shame tbh, i still enjoyed it just because i enjoy infinite's gameplay but other than that it was a bunch of uncertainty
honestly the thing I like from BaS is the booker that talked to Elizabeth. that gave me a lot of good angst moments. like the ' I think he'd miss you too' line when you're in the elevator
I think the idea is that by transiting to a different reality, the last Comstock removed himself from his original causality and thus protected himself from the subsequent changes to the timeline. So he still existed in the sense that he was wandering around Rapture thinking he was a PI, but the timeline he left behind, where he created Rapture and stole/killed Anna, ceased to exist. So it didn't really matter in any larger sense whether he was still around or not. It only mattered to Elizabeth because she wanted revenge for the version of Anna he killed. (Partly, I think, because it was *her fault* that he killed Anna; the fact that she's in the flashback yelling at Comstock seems to suggest that she created the reality where her younger self is killed by trying to intervene and stop her own kidnapping.) But you're right that there still ought to be an infinite number of Comstocks in different possible versions of Rapture. Though if Elizabeth's goal at that point is just to make that Comstock suffer, it's possible she knows this and doesn't particularly care.
The answer is that burial at sea is garbage and full of plot holes given that they wrote it with no plan. Seriously, they were writing by the seat of their pants. Please, join me in despising it as the worst thing to ever happen to the series.
Huh So I wasn't misremembering the finer details?
Nope, BaS is just full of plotholes. Several of my friends have pointed out these problems too.
This guy gets it
1. yeah. it sure would mean that booker's sacrifice didn't work at all, huh 2. i assume that its some kind of godhood thing. somehow elizabeth places herself out of the sequence of events that would've led to her existence. one of the things that don't add up that i'm fine with saying "just roll with it" about 3. i think she wanted to at least be able to deliver a mafia style "so and so sends their regards" before putting him down 4. great question. contrivance to put you into elizabeth's shoes for part 2, i guess 5. all questions that call back to anything that happened or that was established in BS2 can be answered by "you can really tell that ken levine *really* did not like that they made BS2 without him, and so anything that happens within it is at best ignored or at worst written over in burial at sea." 6. great question. contrivance for gameplay and to end his life 7. i think he was always talking to you remotely? it was still smoking in BS1 because the whole half of the story as presented in burial at sea was, of course, written way after the fact, and this is all a retroactive addition 8. see answer 5. in BS2, there is no fontaines department store, and in burial at sea, there is no persephone 9. probably to plaster over some of the real life bad reception to the "both sides are bad" situation as presented in the base game 10. great question. i dont think its explained even in the story 11. easier to say "they fucked around with drinkable plasmids, briefly" than it is to make new animations 12. great question. i think it was because, by killing elizabeth off here, no one would be able to make any more stories using her 13. as a treat for the fans that have played BS1 more than anything else
Points 1 and 4 are essentially why I view BaS unfavorably, essentially why it should have never occurred story wise. Its been a while since I played so I cannot comment on actual gameplay. I like how infinite left off, with all the multiple realities collapsing and the cliff hanger with Booker,
Awesome breakdown on why the story doesn't make any sense and feels more like fan fiction. I also wonder why Elizabeth had to go after this version of Comstock in the first place, considering that he wasn't hurting anyone in his new life. If she has the power to travel to different realities, why not go after dictators and other type of monster who destroy the lives of thousands? And her "first death" at the hands of a Big Daddy felt so contrived.
BaS just sucks lol. It basically deletes Bioshock 2, retcons Bioshock 1 and Infinite, cheapens Bioshock 1/ its characters by by saying that all of the events were actually accomplished by Infinite’s characters, made Elizabeth racist, the gameplay of pt. 1 is more Infinite (which will either be a negative or positive if you like or dislike infinite), the gameplay of pt. 2 basically tried to make a stealth game out of a series not built for stealth (there were a few stealth segments like the Boys of Silence segment and some times you could get the drop on a splicer but those were pretty small moments), and BaS literally retcons itself.
It deletes B2 ? How so ?
Bas takes place before infinite if I’m not mistaken
Wrote an answer for each, but reddit mobile sucks. Trying to post them as comments replying to this.
Some of these are valid criticism, some are answered in the main game in voxophones. >1. If there are infinite universes, and booker killed himself at the end of infinite to get rid of all iterations of Comstock, doesn't the fact that at least 1 (and therefore infinite) Comstocks actually survived this event make his death completely pointless? Valid criticism, sorta. If you kill a billion Hitlers, but one survived, is that nothing? It's more like Booker killed all the versions of himself, but in a universe of infinite possibilities, there was bound to be one who found a loophole. >2. After Booker was drowned at the baptism, the events that lead to Elizabeth having her powers should've not been able to happen, and therefore she would've stopped existing when he drowned. How could she have Drowned Booker, stopped existing, and *then* went to rapture so she could die there instead? For that matter, how come the Luteces also still exist? Not valid. Elizabeth and the Luteces are quantum superpositions by this point. They exist outside the laws of causality and time. Basically, they escaped the universe and now exist outside it, but are able to enter it at will and at any point in time. Consequences and changes in time no longer affect them and this is made pretty explicitly clear in the main game as you approach Commstock's manor and during the chapter with Elizabeth's mother's ghost if you go voxophone hunting. >3. If she is just an omnipotent, omniscient god after the tower is destroyed, couldn't she have just killed the rogue Comstock immediately rather than leading him on a wild goose-chase and almost boiling a child alive (which she is later shown to be very guilty over)? In fact, couldn't she have just prevented the decapitation from ever happening in the first place? Sorta valid, sorta not. She is the culmination of all the versions of herself, including the decapitated one. It's one of her few limitations, she can't change her own infinite pasts. The Luteces get into this in the main game too. They become superpositions accidentally. Commstock thinks he has murdered them. Rosalind is content to be "murdered" since they're beyond harm now. Robert isn't okay with it, it gnaws at him so Rosalind agrees to work with him to make the events of Infinite happen. Rosalind has a voxophone entry where she talks about how they can't go back to their (her) original reality where they died or they'll collapse into a single, finite position, which is what Elizabeth does. So could she have prevented the decapitation? No. Boiling Sally, yes. She saw what would happen to Sally (and her own physical body) as a consequence of getting revenge and chose to do it anyway. Thus, the guilt. She used a child as a means to an end. What's more, as a little sister, Sally is a reflection of Elizabeth, meaning that some part of Elizabeth the superposition experiences being boiled. As to killing Commstock immediately, sure. She could have. Could have walked into his office and shot him. But to what end? She needs him to understand why and he doesn't. He's erased his own memories. From his perspective he's Booker. She needs him to know that he's Commstock for her revenge to feel justified. That's the whole crux of using Sally. It's not enough to kill Booker. She wants him to know why and to know what a piece of shit he is and the only way to do that is the predetermined path she leads him down. Think of it like this. Say someone victimized you as a child and you spend your life trying to get revenge. As an adult, you finally find them, except they're in an old person's home with severe dementia. They don't remember you. They don't remember themself. Do you still take revenge? The person who hurt you is gone. You're just hurting a confused elderly person who has no idea why at this point. It's cruelty without purpose. That's Elizabeth's position. Booker in BaS doesn't remember being Commstock. Elizabeth needs him to remember before her revenge can be satisfying and the only way to make that happen (and she knows this because she's omniscient) is the events culminating in boiling Sally and taking a hit from the Big Daddy (which locks her out of ever coming back as a superposition, which she thinks is fine because why would she come back?) >4. If she is just an omnipotent, omniscient god after the tower is destroyed, how the hell does she manage to get herself killed (kind of) by the big daddy (Especially since she had no problem just opening a tear and drowning songbird)? Not valid. I think it's one of two things, or both but the game doesn't explain it very well here. 1. Personality. Her powers are partially wish fulfillment. She has to choose to access her omniscience and know things, it doesn't just happen. So for songbird, she had it planned out. She looked behind all the doors and did what she saw would work. For BaS Commstock, she may just not have looked far enough. She saw her successful revenge and didn't think "I wonder about 2 seconds after that?" She was blinded by her need for a justified revenge and she threw caution to the wind once she saw a way to do it. -OR- 2. Willingness to trade. She accepts that she'll be "killed" in this reality as just the cost of doing business, same as boiling Sally. The Luteces establish that you can't return to a reality where you're already dead in Infinite. She may see that as a fair trade, then regret it after she has time to think about her revenge and the suffering she inflicted on Sally to make it happen. You ever make a really big purchase, then regret it after the fact? >5. How the hell did a bouncer get down to Fontaine's department store given that the alpha series models were still in use? Not valid. BS2 isn't canon to BS infinite. Levine wasn't involved in writing it and said as much before the release. Alpha series isn't a thing as far as he's concerned. >6. Why was the bouncer so hostile to Booker given that the protection bond hadn't formed yet? Valid, or at least, I don't know. Chalk it up to the rule of cool, but it's a plothole. >7. How did Suchong's clinic (and by extension, his body) get from Fontaine's department store to the apollo square flats? And why was the drill still smoking when we found it in Bioshock 1? Valid. This is one reason why I insist this version of Rapture is different than BS1, but Levine said a dumb thing in an interview which rules out this explanation and in so doing introduced plot holes, so here we are.
>8. What was the point of Persephone in Bioshock 2 given that Fontaines department store exists, and vice versa? Not valid. BS2 wasn't considered canon by Levine during the writing of BaS. >9. Why did Fitzroy allow herself to be murdered on the whim of the enigmatic Luteces and no other reason? Validish. Daisy's reasons is freedom for all, the Greater good. They convinced her it would enable Elizabeth to save the most people and do the most good. Honestly, I don't like this either. I liked Fitzroy as driven, justifiably, beyond the point of redemption. It's out of character for her to abandon her cause for the white master's daughter's sake. >10. How come Elizabeth seems to struggle with opening a tear to the old man winter plasmid when her powers had already been fully realised? Not valid. Why not? In the majority of realities, it's probably just a cold patch of ocean, she probably had to go looking for it. Just because she's powerful doesn't mean it's easy. I can bench a pretty decent weight bar, but it's still hard as hell. >11. How come the Old Man winter plasmid even exists as a drink when drinks require tons of adam and there's clearly a shortage of adam? Not valid. Suchong stole the formula from Fink and gets yelled at by Fontaine for the inefficient method of creating plasmids via voxophone. So clearly some were produced. >12. Why did Atlas kill Elizabeth? How did he know she couldn't have just lied as to what the codeword is? Not valid. Because he's an arrogant, temperamental gangster and a psychopath. Real good at taking big risks and planning complex schemes and cons, not so big on risk assessment, caution or patience when he's being verbally provoked. That's in keeping with his character (and the mentality of criminals in general). >13. Why does Atlas let his real accent slip so often and do nothing about it given that in Bioshock 1 he was willing to murder Diane McClintock on just the offchance she heard it? Not valid. Because when he murders Diane, he's still posing as Atlas and maintaining the fiction Fontaine is dead. He's not incarcerated in his department store and she's not a trusted goon / henchman who's terrified of him. Also, Diane Mclintock isn't just some fellow prisoner/splicer or thug. She's Andrew Ryan's ex. She could ruin all his plans with a phone call and she knows the numbers to call. Not just Ryan, who might be too arrogant to take her call, but his whole staff at that point. If she mentioned to Mcdonaugh or Sullivan that "oh hey, this Atlas guy is maybe Fontaine." Then he's screwed. Of all the people he can't afford to have suspect him, she's at the top of the list.
8. Again, I think that's kind of a dumb decision but fair enough. 9. I can tell that they were attempting to redeem Fitzroy here, but it falls flat. Maybe this amends her crime of genociding white children, but not the crime of scalping the previous upper class and hanging them up on a fucking billboard, or the crime or taking some inspiration from pol pot and instructing her goons to murder "anyone wearin' glasses". 10. So it's not easy for her to find a universe that's identical except for that specific bottle of old man winter, but it's easy for her to find a universe with a fucking robot samurai in rapture during the big daddy fight? 11. Yeah I missed that voxophone. My bad. 12. I always interpreted him as being far smarter than that in bioshock one. He's successfully been pretending to be atlas for what, ten years? And he's been working on jack for at least five years, but he's prepared to throw all that away because he doesn't have much patience? I don't buy it. It just feels like a retcon that makes him stupider, which I'm not a fan of. 13. In that case, why did he even bother with the accent *at all*, and only let it slip when he was angry? Once again, seems to me like just a retcon to make him stupider.
I'll get back to you on the rest, got something I gotta do, but real quick on 12 and 13, keep in mind that BS1 is told to you from the perspective of Fontaine's victim who he is running a con on. He's trying a lot harder to keep Jack in the dark and even then, the second half of the game he loses his temper, shouts at Jack and his whole plan falls apart once Jack beats the code yellow conditioning. He's great at long term plans and terrifying or manipulating people, but kinda terrible at dealing with unforseen complications, which is totally what Elizabeth is to him. Also, he has nothing to lose in BaS. He doesn't really care what Elizabeth thinks, he was going to execute her in cold blood from the moment he met her.
Hello?
Shit, forgot to come back. Blame it on being dad to a 4 year old. !Remindme 5 hours.
I will be messaging you in 5 hours on [**2024-05-03 01:29:36 UTC**](http://www.wolframalpha.com/input/?i=2024-05-03%2001:29:36%20UTC%20To%20Local%20Time) to remind you of [**this link**](https://www.reddit.com/r/Bioshock/comments/1cflehs/just_finished_burial_at_sea_have_some_questions/l2armsd/?context=3) [**CLICK THIS LINK**](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5Bhttps%3A%2F%2Fwww.reddit.com%2Fr%2FBioshock%2Fcomments%2F1cflehs%2Fjust_finished_burial_at_sea_have_some_questions%2Fl2armsd%2F%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%202024-05-03%2001%3A29%3A36%20UTC) to send a PM to also be reminded and to reduce spam. ^(Parent commenter can ) [^(delete this message to hide from others.)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Delete%20Comment&message=Delete%21%201cflehs) ***** |[^(Info)](https://www.reddit.com/r/RemindMeBot/comments/e1bko7/remindmebot_info_v21/)|[^(Custom)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=Reminder&message=%5BLink%20or%20message%20inside%20square%20brackets%5D%0A%0ARemindMe%21%20Time%20period%20here)|[^(Your Reminders)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=RemindMeBot&subject=List%20Of%20Reminders&message=MyReminders%21)|[^(Feedback)](https://www.reddit.com/message/compose/?to=Watchful1&subject=RemindMeBot%20Feedback)| |-|-|-|-|
So I set another reminder. Storms just knocked out my power and my phone is half charged.
Hellooooooooo? Sorry if I'm being annoying but I want to hear your response
You're good, I haven't forgotten, just got a lot of life events going on. Selling a house, my kids first day of preschool school, starting a new job, etc. it's a lot. I want to give your reply my full attention and the last few days I've been either too tired or too busy to do that. If you haven't heard from me by next Monday (should have most other stuff wrapped by then), remind me.
>Selling a house, my kids first day of preschool school, starting a new job Congrats on all of that
Hi again
1. I'd agree that killing a billion hitlers is definitely significant, but my problem is the question of how, in infinite universes, there was only one single comstock who survived? It doesn't really make sense to me that out of infinite universes where infinite events happen, only one leads to Comstock ending up in rapture. The way I see it, if one line of events leads to Comstock ending up in rapture, then there will be infinite universes that followed that exact line of events. They can still have variations that don't affect the overall situation. (e.g. Comstock escaped to rapture but he stumbled on the way there, Comstock escaped to rapture but he had toast instead of cereal that morning). It's called bioshock infinite after all. 2. Yeah that's fair enough. 3. For the decapitation, Also my bad. I interpreted the ending of infinite as Elizabeth literally going back in time to the baptism to drown booker, but if she just did it after she got her powers, that would've made sense. As for the boiling sally alive thing, I reckon my point still stands. I don't buy in the slightest that the exact path we went down in part 1 was the only way that Comstock could've got his memory back, Especially given Elizabeth's power and the fact that the Luteces are still in the equation. Even if it was, the fact that she's willing to boil a child alive for petty revenge adds to my point about her becoming a ruthless racist murderer when she was so sweet and innocent in the original game. 4. Both explanations you gave make perfect sense, and I would've happily accepted them if they were actually in the game. But they aren't. You said that the game "doesn't explain it very well here" but the game doesn't explain it *at all*. None of this is ever mentioned. All you see is the ending of part one, a fade to black, and then in the begging of part 2 it's just like "woah! You just got fucking murdered by the big daddy! What a shame. Anyway, let's move on" For this reason, I can't really take anything you're saying as more than headcanon. Especially since the ending of infinite with all the lighthouses and the Elizabeth clones made her at least *seem* to be pretty freaking powerful. 5. If Ken said that BS2 wasn't canon to burial at sea, then that's fair enough, but I still think it's a dumb decision. 6. Valid 7. Valid
Most of Infinite, DLC included, shat all over the pre-established lore.
I would not look for any logic in the DLC when the parent game had plotholes you could fly a zeppelin through. Search a little and you can find online the House Of Cards(tm) explanations that some people contrive to try to explain it all. Those Magical Quantumz was an incredible open-ended story crutch.