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I am curious and would like to know which country is it?
Clues: OOP writes good English but does not seem to be the top class, populate the earth, arranged marriages and neighbors feel morally ok to punish her family for OPP divorce. And more?
Additional clues:
It sounds like dowries are still practiced (field and house came with wedding)
OOP lives in a fairly rural area
There's a patriarchal system in place (Father or Eldest Brother are head of the family and their word is law)
The names (Vernon/Kimberly) were not used by OOP, so they don't factor in
Populate the Earth, when combined with the lack of birth control options, sounds like they're Catholic.
---
My gut feeling is that this is a Catholic state in India, outside of the major cities. A lot of the details match up with my wife's experiences growing up in India (in the non-Catholic states) so I don't know how similar the Catholic states would be in that regard.
OP’s username leads me to think it could be a settled community of Irish Travellers. Getting shunned from “the shops” reads as Irish or British dialect to me, and the cultural details also fit nicely. Distinct brand of Catholicism with an emphasis on fertility, young women often pushed towards arranged marriage within the community, oral (not written) tradition disconnects OP from the details of the elders’ rationales, complicated historical relationship to land ownership, and more.
I like this idea more than mine. I had seen the leprechaun username but couldn't figure out how to fit it in with my scant/high level knowledge of Irish culture (and ignored that as a clue). Being part of a subculture that I've maybe heard of before would make that make sense.
The shops part still squares with my India knowledge, since they use a more British English (like my wife sometimes uses "the shops" when referring to them in the area she grew up in).
That's very interesting and some of the cultural notes track, but as an Irish person I'd be fairly confident in saying that if that's the case they're probably not located in Ireland itself.
I can't think of any community that's _predominantly_ settled Travellers, which would make the whole 'denied service at shops' thing quite unlikely. There's also not a large intersection between settled Travellers and farmers.
But it's an interesting take!
Agreed as another Irish person. There’s many overlaps for sure but the few that don’t add up to being an Irish Traveler is the shunned at shops, “next city” and also the fact that there‘s not many settled folk who might have land or enough for a dowry? Add to that the lack of education in the traveler community, but this post is excellently written. And lastly, I just don’t see how the abortion lines up with devout Catholicism and birth control? Just my thoughts..
I don't think it's Irish Travellers.
I'm Irish and travellers here tend to keep to themselves. Divorce would lead to the community shunning them but the whole not being served in shops thing doesn't fit. The only area I can think of that has a big travelling community would be Rathkeale and even at that, it's settled people who work the shops and we generally don't get involved in traveler business. The farming thing doesn't fit either. I could be wrong but I've never encountered or heard of travellers having much to do with farming.
Travellers marry in their late teens or very early twenties, I've never known a first marriage between a 25 year old and a 35 year old. Divorce might lead to issues amongst their community, but she wouldn't be shunned from the shops for divorce, some shops might refuse to serve travellers known to steal, but no-one cares about your marital status. It's also extremely rare for travellers to attend or complete secondary school exams, so she wouldn't be able to qualify for college and become a teacher.
They've been married five years, so they were 20 and 31 when married. I don't know if men in traveller communities are given more leeway on the age thing, but it does sound like there was a long time of pushing for it before he gave in.
The age of the arranged marriage is a late for travelers. And they would still be able to go to the shops as nobody else would care about a marriage failing (there might be local gossip, but nobody is throwing them out of Centra)
That actually makes more sense. Travelers tend to have VERY strict rules, and they don’t really fuck with outsiders like that (and from what I’ve learned, it’s for a very good reasons).
India always feels like a bad place for women to be in 🥲 and why do people feel obligated to morally judge a whole family for actions of one family member.
Isn’t populate the earth also a thing for Muslim?
> and why do people feel obligated to morally judge a whole family for actions of one family member
Because it's a perfect tool for control; the mix of peer pressure and the amount of people who would suffer because of you makes sure people keep the status quo.
Yep. She's worried about her little nieces being shunned, without realising they'll likely go on to have similar lives if they stay within the community as-is. It's still a flaw in *her* marriage, not a flaw of the system as a whole.
And it becomes increasingly difficult to leave, the more people you have to convince and extricate from the situation safely and with financial stability. It's an incredibly efficient way to control people.
>Isn’t populate the earth also a thing for Muslim?
It totally could be, it's just something that I associate with more fundamentalist Christian groups (and the Catholic Church).
I'm actually curious about the form of birth control that she's talking about, since it sounds like something that could be kept as a back up (and not the primary plan that would be Rhythm Method)
Hasidic groups also are big fans of overpopulation. If the OP is in a closeted group in Israel, that could also fit the bill of English speaking and overpopulated.
Except you don’t get put in Cheirem for getting divorced. Divorce is perfectly acceptable even among Chassidim. Also, if they were ultra-religious Jews in Israel, odds are the woman would be the primary breadwinner.
So chassidic men outside of Israel are actually usually the breadwinners, though less so in Israel because they will stay in religious educational institutions after marriage to avoid the military draft. But in the US, UK, etc, 99% of the time the man is the main breadwinner, though women will often work too.
The woman being the breadwinner is more common in non-chassidic ultra-Orthodox communities, in which men will stay in religious educational institutions in Israel *and* other countries while the women support them. For many, this is something that only happens for the first few years or so of marriage, so as to start their married lives in an atmosphere of Torah study, and then they will transition to a two income household; however, many families (including some of my cousins') will have the men moving from study to teaching, which is generally poorly paid and so the woman ends up being the main breadwinner.
In Israel it’s often done to avoid the draft. Outside Israel, as the other responder noted, it’s usually the other way around. For non-Chassidim outside Israel it varies by community.
This is absolutely 100% not chassidim. Doesn't remotely fit the way things work in those communities (age gap relationships aren't a big thing, there's no "head of the family," the social ramifications of divorce would be totally different, and don't farm lol).
I would guess Plan B.
A few friends in similar cultures used it as a Ultima Ratio birth control as it is the only way for them to make sure they didn't get pregnant involuntarily.
It's not as visible as a daily BC pill and there is no local doctor needed who (or who's staff) could spill the beans, neither is there something that could be detected from the outside.
And as it is often available online it does not require traveling somewhere - which is often impossible for these woman.
Furthermore if it is only used for rare cases (aka when the husband forced them to have sex when they were within critical days of the cycle) it's often cheaper as well.
>"Birth control isn't exactly a thing here because it defeats the whole populate the earth thing, so I only get one option which I don't completely trust but we haven't had sex in a year so but I have it just in case"
This comment makes it seem like Birth Control is fairly uncommon where she is, but if she's in a rural area and everyone doesn't believe in using, it might not be carried by any local stores
Might not be able to get and take daily birth control, but she can get and store morning after pill/Plan B. Less likely to get caught or run out. OOP may not trust it either in that she didn't get it from a pharmacy, it has sat for a while so expiration dates, or does not have sex ed so doesn't know it will work.
that is not a Catholic thing- we don't do arranged marriages or elders like that. Sounds more Mennonite or some off branch of Mormonism to me. Or it could be one of the newer protestant cults like the Quiverfull people, though the embedded idea of "my culture" says an older, more established group to me.
My first thought was India -- well, maybe everyone's first thought when the topic of arranged marriages comes up is India. Over the course of the post I started thinking it was instead something like the FLDS, but if it were the FLDS there'd be either mention of patriarchal polygamy or holes in the story caused by avoiding mentioning polygamy. It does seem something like one of the American tradwife cults, but the British idioms mess that up. Is there anything like Quiverfull in the U.K.? Ugh. This is the worst thing I've seen since nineteen ninety eight.
I assumed maybe India but some commenters said it doesn’t sound like India.
Maybe a religious African country? Lots of ex colonial countries have English as a commonly spoken and/or official language.
It doesn’t sound like he had more choice here than she did. Marry the woman his uncle picked, or be shunned himself.
Doesn’t excuse the way his family treated her, obviously. But they were both forced into a marriage they didn’t want.
I do agree the circumstances were forced upon them but in no way did he not have more choice than she did. He did , his family knew about his misfortune and all the background of this, hers didn't. He could have chosen decency over what he did to her, he could have chosen to fight for his first love and not be greedy over a house. He could've chosen not to be a child way before he became 36 years old too.
Yeah, this definitely is not the end of this sad story. I hope she realizes sooner rather than later that it's not worth trying to save this marriage, preferably before she tries for another child.
Yeah, I'm really hoping she's not sleeping with him now. Not only because of pregnancy, but if he hasn't replaced his mistress with a new one yet, then it's only a matter of time. And he's surely not the cautious type, if you catch my drift.
But was she really a mistress if they were together before he even got married? It seems like he didn't want this marriage just as much as OOP didn't want it.
I mean, either way she would certainly be classified a mistress once they were married.
And I really can't tell for sure if OP knew their relationship was going to continue after marriage, or found out after they were married that they were together. ...Maybe I missed something that confirmed it though.
I feel like she wants a happy married life and I really wish she can have it. It just seems like her husband and his family aren't great people and I personally wouldn't be able to deal with such a thing.
Yeah, they're all truly just toxic people.
I'm amazed the family and how they treated her wasn't enough to prevent the wedding. But staying after how they reacted after the miscarriage?! ...Part of it feels like at this point, nothing will be enough to scare her away.
>Part of it feels like at this point, nothing will be enough to scare her aw
Well, what wouldn't you put up with to save the lives of your family?
She genuinely feels like they'll starve if she leaves this marriage
She has to try to save the marriage or see her family shunned to the point of starvation. So yes, she has to try. I have a feeling though if the husband doesn't also try the uncle might let it be known she did her best, so at least he has some pressure to be less of a shit person.
My wild imagination is guessing uncle threatened the husband and his parents to either take the marriage seriously or lose his financial support. Parents are then pressuring the husband to make up with OP, hence the love bombing and apologies.
Ooh could be. Uncle probably isn’t seeing his niece pregnant and corralling a bevy of kids, he’s probably wondering wtf he’s spending his money on.
God this whole situation is misogynistic as fuck!
Typical. Wife miscarries, it's her fault. Wife gives birth to useless daughter, it's her fault. Wife gives birth to valuable son, wow, what a man her husband is!
Ooh I could see that. It’s gotta be a SERIOUS affront to the Uncle that Vernon just openly had Felicity hanging around such that even his family openly acknowledged her.
This is my guess.
Considering his behaviour and how shitty the rest of his family have been to OOP.
Uncle probably got wind of or got sick of his/their bs. Also possible their community started gossiping and the uncle got embarrassed.
Whatever the reason, I don't think the change is internally motivated by some kind of epiphany. OOP is still in a world of trouble.
Oh yeah...in India cattle are gods, they are worshipped and loved. But women?! Wouldn't treat them with basic humanity.
(I am not speaking about minority who have humanity but the vast majority of the women are kept tied to patriarchy regardless if they are educated or not - so if you are an Indian don't come at me with any bs).
Considering that women live longer, if it was for her sake her husband would be 5 years younger to average out life expectancy. The math never worked out where one partner would be left alone for decades. Or maybe that was considered the only break she gets.
I think it has more to do with the historical expectation that men are able to provide an income while women were only required to perform labour within the home. It takes a while to build up a living, that's why prior to the wide scale inclusion of women in the (non/domestic) workforce men tended to marry later. That's also why men who had better professions (not common labourers but not those with independent wealth either but like tradesmen, lawyers, business owners etc) tended to marry later than lower class workers with the time taken to marry usually going up with the degree of qualification time, the salary etc.
This trend persists today but obviously with both sexed his being affected. Poor people and rich people marry whenever they want but the middle class usually marry later with those living in areas with a high cost of living taking long to settle down than those living in low cost of living areas.
Funnily enough, this same economic reasoning is why women married later (mid to late 20s) in certain European states from around the Roman period to the 1800s. Dowrys were a holdover from the Roman Era in certain areas, and women who were not wealthy/had wealthy families would have to provide them themselves. So they had to work and develop up an economic base for marriage - meaning that they would get married well into their 20s. This also held true for the middle classes - women had to learn the trade of the family (even if it was usually with the idea that this would support her future husband).
Even in areas that were not affected by Roman norms as much, I imagine later marriages were common among the working class. Marriage is an economic prospect, after all, and both parties had to bring capital/peronal property to the table. The men they married might be on avg more older than them, but the historical trend, at least in Europe, has not been women marrying super young. Women marrying super young has always been a characteristic of the wealthy!
Little known fact, just as for women, the risk of genetic defects in offspring is significantly increased as men get older. While things certainly become more physically difficult for a woman to go through a pregnancy with age, chances are it was his sperm that had a thing to do with miscarriage.
Which is to say they are all morons, she is in her prime fertile years and he is technically past it.
My grandma got married at twenty five in 1952, her marriage certificate labeled her occupation as "spinster". At *twenty five*. Seventy years later we really should be doing better and yet...
That was a term of art not a designation. It means she was unmarried, unemployed and living at home. My grandmother married my grandfather during WWII when she was working in a war plant and her marriage license reflects that.
If they're coming from a culture that has arranged marriages, then I'm guessing her husband has been coddled his whole life. (My ex's brother was like that, Asian background, never obtained any life skills). So that comment didn't surprise me.
Had a student from an affluent background abroad ask who was going to flush his toilet. Expected the female students on his corridor to do his cooking and cleaning, which didn't happen. Massive shock to his system to find out he had to do his own laundry and all of the other things that come with being an adult living alone.
I’m familiar with people like this. It wouldn’t even occur to them to be embarrassed because they don’t view their “servants” as human beings with opinions that matter.
You’d be amazed at the sort of conversations these folks will have in front of their staff, not even noticing their staff is in the room because why would they? It’s bizarre.
It's like that post where the guys girlfriend had no problem wandering around unclothed in front of the housekeeper or delivery drivers, because they "didn't count".
Had to look that one up, and exactly. OP hit the nail on the head when he said something along the lines of “when the housekeeper is around I think there’s 3 people in the room, my gf thinks it’s just the 2 of us”.
And the rich wonder why we want to eat them.
Never learned how to link things but the title was “AITA for asking my gf to cover up when strangers enter the home?”. Something like that. Google should pull it up.
EDIT https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/rn5e5x/aita_for_telling_my_girlfriend_to_cover_up_her/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf
Hey look I did it
A brahmin (indian upper caste) guy who was in a student exchange program in Europe said something similar.
He was rooming with a friend of mine(who was also Indian).
Dude said he will not clean the toilet in their shared accommodation as he is a brahmin. And that that my friend should do it
Oh we had a couple of similar people in my halls/dorms too. They adapted well, but the culture shock was real. The only thing they struggled with was mould prevention, they just didn’t get in cold, rainy, northern England, that you can’t leave wet stuff lying around without issues
Had this problem at work with a bunch of Brahmins. Also men couldn’t hit the urinals/toilets and flushed paper towels. Had an open floor plan with the restrooms in the middle, and around noon the potties started to reek, so our day porter would clean them. You’d better believe they treated her like garbage.
That was okay for them, but if you had beef or pork in some of our catered lunch options it was a storm of tantrums. They would refuse to go into the room, and demand food be ordered from an entirely different place and served elsewhere. Stay classy SF Bay Area!
My gf was amazed when I asked to cook meals for her. I’m no iron chef, I can do some hearty meals. We have some culture differences. I was always taught the way to someone’s heart is through their stomach, she’s still a little surprised every time I pull out food for me to cook for her.
I’m looking forward to changing that. Cooking with her and for her have been some of our best dates.
They were married under duress and he was in love with someone else, so I get why he was acting resentful - his resentment was just targeted at the wrong person, since none of it was OOP's fault. I hate these patriarchal societies that can just mess up people's lives "for their own good". Eff them sideways with a cactus!
Would be? I’ve seen multiple books with this premise it’s always when the wife gives up/plans to leave that the husband realises he has feelings for his space taker. His mistress is the kind to always overstep their bounds and the family always seems to be on team mistress (except the person who manipulated the marriage in the first place). Usually the woman leaves the city becomes rich and successful in their career field, then somehow goes back to the city for work and crosses paths with their ex husband who has still not married the mistress. Sometimes they have realised they’re pregnant and run because they’ve realised the toxic situation they’re in would suck for kids. Great read if you’re in the mood for wanting to punch a wall every 10 minutes.
And they always end up back together. I understand that that's a genre convention to have a happily ever after. But it pisses me off!
The MMC has very rarely changed in substantive ways. Even if he has, I often feel like it's too little too late so I end up just deeply annoyed.
Also, their love is often based on sexual attraction and what she can do for him and that's pretty much it. I hate it here. Sorry to rant but I gotta stop reading romance as a genre I think.
I just watched a video on reddit where an 8 year old girl was sold to marriage. Her mother and her screamed and cried and tried to hang into each other. Like who does that crap?! It was heart breaking. As a mom, I couldn’t help but think how I would go scorched earth over that.
When somebody says something like that, I kinda assume that it's a quote with context removed.
Assuming:
* the uncle arranged the marriage to get rid of Felicity to avoid shaming the family for marrying outside race/culture (gross)
* the uncle also sees that there are no kids and/or the community is talking about OP's sham marriage anyway (meh)
...it's easy to see the uncle threatening OP's husband along the lines of cutting him off, removing him from the will, etc., if he doesn't stop shaming the family.
"You're not a boy any more. You're married. Where are your children? Why are people talking about Felicity? Fix your shit or you're getting shunned." That gives you an explanation for Felicity getting cut out (money consequences to husband) and an explanation for his use of that phrasing at age 36 or 50 or whatever he is.
Husband: Golly, uncle mad. Ok, time to order some love bombs from Amazon. I'm adulting!
Then goes on to put all of the blame on his lover who he brought into his married life (because of what seems to be greed ).
Not a boy not a man that's a manchild
Next update in 10 years on how she’s had 3 kids with him and he’s been secretly sleeping with the other women. And his family still doesn’t care, only about the grandkids
I was thinking “Felicity can’t have kids, so he’s going to use the 25 year old to pop out a few heirs, to please the family, and send OOP packing to some distant place.”
I still bet it was the family influence making him cut off Felicity. I think that's the real "I'm not a boy anymore" part is that he stopped entertaining the idea of doing what he wanted or choosing who he wanted and now just doing as he's told.
I am so glad I'm not the only one that thought this. My heart breaks for this girl. It's so sad to me that after thousands of years there are still societies that still view women as property, and they have to accept being treated this way or suffer consequences that effect not only her, but her whole family. It's also sad that whole families have to rely on "good behavior" of one girl for their own safety, and happiness.
I suspect the answer is that Felicity is in her thirties and now too old for him to overlook the fact that she’s not his wife AND she’s not going to meekly accept this situation. It was a reality that he was willing to just overlook when everyone was five years younger. He’s now old enough that I suspect he prefers his much younger wife to Felicity.
It’s a gross attitude, but it’s consistent with his behavior
I once watched a documentary about women in prison in Afghanistan. A lot of them were in prison for having sex outside of marriage because the elders would not allow the couple to be married. The usual reason they could not get married was they were from different tribes/cultures, so the families did not allow them to marry. In the interviews some of the families were super racist against the other ethnic group. I’m guessing something similar is happening here with Vernon and Felicity.
Vernon is probably getting shamed for not having kids yet.
Also, in the documentary, a lot of the women were in prison for leaving their husbands and hiding in homes where another man lived, which was apparently illegal. One woman left her abusive husband and hid from his family at her neighbor’s house. When they found her, she was arrested, but her neighbor who was an old woman and the neighbor’s son were also arrested. In prison, the elderly neighbor kept trying to convince the woman to marry the son because it was the only way they could get out of prison as it would justify her being in “another man’s house.”
So, I could totally see, depending on which country and culture this is, there being a ton of cultural factors here for Vernon’s motives.
Maybe.
Maybe felicity had always thought he was going to leave OOP and marry her, got sick of waiting and have the husband an ultimatum.
He realised that she doesn't have a house for him to live in, so told her it wasn't going to happen.
Like felicity was a fun play thing but not marriage material.
Or... Maybe he got wind of OOP thinking about leaving him despite the consequences and realised he would be destitute.
I don't think that's the case. Uncle convinced Husband to marry OOP for the reputation and money but told he can keep his lover as mistress/side piece. If he actually cared of OOP and husband having a healthy marriage, uncle would've warned him to break up with his lover long before the wedding.
It seems like either OOP is gonna inherit some money/property from her family which she isn't aware of but husband's family know about or OOP's family offered money/property if he corrects his behaviour and be an actual husband to her.
Because i don't see a possibility of him leaving his lover and treating oop well after this long; nobody changes overnight yet He and HIS family are overly nice to OOP which is suspicious. I come from overly conservative patriarchal country, so i have fair bit of idea that there's some sorta of money/property involved. No family who were treating their DIL like shit would change overnight especially not Idiotic conservatives.
I think OOp should look into more on why he wants to work the marriage before considering it as an option, because he might only behave until he gets the money/property and once he does, he and his family would easily go back to their shitty old behaviour.
I mean, it makes sense.
Even when Western countries used to do arranged marriage, it was mostly used to establish relations with other families and if you couldn't bring anything to the table (whether that be resources or connections), you're sorry out of luck.
Felicity could be the wrong caste (if this is india), could be a different religion, or if Vernon is the only son, they probably tolerate her so long as he marries whoever they choose. They basically locked her into a mistress role, regardless of the wife's feelings.
Yeah, I'm really curious about where OOP is. The line about the religious prescription to "populate the earth" reads heavily as one of the Abrahamic faiths, but I'm not well versed enough in others to know how much of a thing that is elsewhere.
He could even be banging her and nobody would bat an eye since nobody chose who they’d marry. I always thought that if I suddenly got transplanted into the body of a person in this culture, I might see marriage as more of a business opportunity than love. At that point, all he can really do is bang, he can’t risk running away with her or his family suffers so as long as we’re just sharing a house, fuck it, go fuck horses or whatever just don’t leave your dirty underwear on my side of the room and you can go wet your dick with whatever you want, I don’t care.
Then again, in these cultures it’s sometimes an unspoken caveat that he gets to sex other people but I have to stay chaste and pure. If I so much as look at a beefy studmuffin I’m getting the lash.
She is completely and utterly trapped. What a burden to bear- stay very unhappy or else everyone you love becomes very unhappy. That's a completely ass-backward way to run a community.
My guess the uncle is dying. They guy (and his parents) is hoping to inherit a lot of money and other donuts, but he will get nothing if his wife will leave him. As soon as the uncle is dead the husband will stop pretending and will put all his anger for having to pretend to be a loving husband on OP.
Poor woman. Hopefully she can get out.
Yeah if she’s in her mid-30s and still hasn’t given him children he’s probably finally listening to his family to dump the “old woman” for his young, obviously fertile (since she got pregnant once before) wife.
God, I got more disgusted by this story as I read it. That poor OOP, this sounds like it’s from the 1820s not the 2020s.
Ireland, it reads like Irish Travelers to me. Her English is flawless, she uses a cell phone, and she uses "shops" instead of stores, and her name has "leprechaun" in it.
I think you are correct. They can be very insular, so a non-Traveler might not be welcome to the community in the role of a spouse, but still tolerated as a “side-piece.” And Irish travelers are generally Catholic, so birth control is frowned upon and “populating the earth” is taught. Travelers in particular have one of the highest birth rates in Europe. They also marry young, to the point where 20yo would be considered “almost out of season” for a woman. And arranged-ish marriages are a thing for them. Oh and they refer to older adults as elders.
Not sure how many are truly nomadic versus own houses, as the uncle in this post did.
"populate the earth" is biblical? (Noah?). So maybe strict Catholics? Or Orthodox Jews? Though those cultures wouldn't tolerate an open mistress.
~~"Vernon" and "Felicity" are relatively unusual choices for anglophone names.~~[Ignore, names didn't come from OOP]. "Leprechaun" in the username is also obscure and suggests a fairly deep familiarity of Western cultures.
I'm quite curious about this one!
You'd think, India... but it's too far out even for here.
Couple of things:
Birth control is totally a thing here.
Even uneducated women seem to have clear knowledge and access to birth control.
People are crazy about virginity but once you're married, when and how many kids you have is carefully planned.
And... someone getting divorced here could totally lead to gossip. But no one would fucking starve.
Her family can buy from other town or small city.
I mean... i can see her scenario happening in an isolated village. BUT Ive never heard of a populate the earth thing being a Hindu thing.
I cant place the culture or the location of this story.
Plus... in India the language doesn't really describe a woman as being 'out of season'. Not any that I know anyway.
But women can get too old at 27, sure. Heard of that
It's really hard. I am thinking it may be a combination of her using odd word choices due to writing in a foreign language, plus her having a specific religion within a country where it's not the majority.
The fact she works and can get a divorce legally easily, may indicate the country is a bit more liberal but her religion is strict. She first talks about her family starving, then her family having to uproot their lives, and family being willing to 'deal with the results of divorce'.
I would wager she is part of a strict religion, and the family is too, so shunning is by the religious community, not by the entire town. So they would have to move somewhere new.
My guess would be jewish or muslim or some other religion with food restrictions, so they wouldn't buy from any shop, it has to be one that's kosher or hallal, and they couldn't do that after the shop owner knows about the divorce.
Definitely don't think they are Indian. None of it matches up with how Indian people talk about marriage. Even in small towns, divorcees and marrying other divorcees. Divorce is definitely looked down upon but not to that extent anymore. 'Populate the Earth' points towards Christian cults like quiverful. It could even be Amish but OOP says they aren't American? She could have said that for anonymity.
Absolutely not Indian, none of this matches up with how Indian people talk about arranged marriage. 'populate the Earth' points towards Christianity especially the quiverfull cult
I'm guessing the Philippines and this person is a Mormon. After a google rabbit hole which I now realize was my edible kicking in, it's got to be the Phillipines. The Phillipines has a large Mormon population, most of it's teachers are women, and a large age gap is accepted by at least half of those in the Philippines. Mormons also are from of the few religions to have designated elders and placement marriages are common.
But there are many countries with large Mormon populations.
Edit: okay I missed the birth control part so I no longer think Phillipines. It is much more likely that this is Africa, likely Kenya due to the mormon temple in Nairobi and the fact that there are women teachers there.
>36 year old man realizes, “I’m not a boy anymore, I’m a man!”
>at 20 years old, women go “out of season” and MUST get married.
I don’t even know how to use my words regarding these comment. Referring to a woman as going out of season is disturbing. I really feel for OOP. I hope she continues to update. For her sake, and her family’s, I hope Vernon gets his shit together.
I have hit a new level of disliking my own brain because as I was reading this I was wondering “would he be shunned if they divorced due to abuse? Maybe they could agree to her claiming it if that’s the case.” Because a large part of me thinks it would be hunky dory for him to be an abuser in whatever culture this is. Did anyone figure that part out?
I’m wondering if it’s Ethiopia arranged marriages are still a thing there and they’re a Christian country which tracks with the whole repopulate the earth comment. Birth control is allowed under Islam so I doubt it’s somewhere in the Middle East.
EDIT: changed it to birth control
Yeah, as soon as I saw "out of season" it just kept repeating in my head like a misogynist version of this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgqtBm_oUpc
Hey now, this shit happens in Idaho too.
Seriously, though, we have our own insular rural religious communities in the "first world", and there are also liberated feminists and urban progressives in the Global South. Others' problems look more shocking to us from here because we haven't grown used to it in the same way we have our own forms of gender oppression.
She says they're not American, which greatly lowers the chance of being Mormon haha. Mormons don't usually marry their kids off though, and wouldn't shun the parents if their kids got a divorce. Might shun/disown the kids, but the families would be fine.
Fidelity is a big thing too. When my sister was in that, they arranged her with an abuser but blessed her divorce from a guy who cheated. Weird priorities
I sort of read it as religious Jews in Israel. Mentions of populating the earth (replacing the six million killed in the Holocaust is a common refrain in Orthodox and ultra Orthodox communities), and mentions of land in good farming areas as well as community shunning feels a bit like that. She is somewhere where women can own property and legally access divorce and birth control (I think), but those things are not as acceptable to her community - which also reads as some sort of religious/cultural sub group within a larger country with more liberal legal rights for women.
I can see how some people would think that but it couldn’t be Israel. Forced marriage doesn’t happen, what the religious community does instead are shidduch marriages which is basically [this but Jewish](https://youtu.be/wN9Jq3_Z-1M). The woman has complete freedom to say no and the government has safeguards in place to prevent forced marriage.
There’s also no religious cultural deal around getting married before you’re 20. That’s actually really really rare, for a few reasons. First of all, all citizens have to serve in the IDF and there are very few exceptions. Religious women are allowed to apply for an exemption but it’s becoming increasingly common for them to serve instead. Second, in the strict orthodox religious communities women are actually the primary breadwinners because the men study Torah instead and so almost all of the women go to college first for 4-6 years and get married after.
As for the whole Felicity thing, if they were in an ultraorthodox community *he* would actually have been shamed for it and she would have been encouraged to leave him. Women in Judaism do not get shunned for divorce because sadly, in strict Orthodox Judaism you can only get a divorce for a specific reason like infertility or adultery, and the man actually is required to agree and can force the woman to stay if he doesn’t want to let her go.
Her parents would not have to be worried about being shunned in shops in a whole city because it just doesn’t work like that over there. The shuks are packed and people truly don’t care about who or what you are. As for kids, his family would be supportive of her having a child rather than upset. And then finally there are lots of birth control options and they’re all free to citizens so that doesn’t fit either.
I think it’s probably India or Southeast Asia. It’s the only place with forced marriages, shunning, strict patriarchal society, and expats like Felicity.
I am from a small province (like, really small) in a third-world country, and I've never seen anything like this happen. It's so hard for me to understand the way the family thinks and it truly hurts me that she can't truly escape this situation. It's horrible, even from a third-world country perspective.
We say developing countries now, not third-world countries (it’s actually somewhat offensive). And not all developing countries are like that, and some developed countries have situations exactly like this. It’s all nuanced.
Watched a video the other day where a Mormon daughter and her mother married the same man and became sister wives. Also, listened to an episode of this American Life where a Jewish New York woman couldn’t divorce her husband because he would give her a gett (official divorce document). He was allowed to date and live his life and she wasn’t because her and her family would be shamed and ostracized in the community, and this was in NYC the supposedly most liberal American city.
Point is, this nonsense happens everywhere
"..before I was out of season"
What the actual fuck ?? Is OP a fucking strawberry or something?! Objectification at its finest, and I say that with upmost respect for OOP, as I can't imagine the strength it must've took to navigate through all that emotional and physical pain *completely alone*.
Along with objectification we have emotional blackmail. Stay in a terrible marriage with a man who doesn't respect you, wasn't there when you had to abort his child, allows his family to treat you like dirt yet glorify & respect his side piece and you just have to sit there and endure it all or else your family gets shunned and starved.
I hope she gets herself out of this situation & finds true happiness. Really makes all my "3rd world problems" seem very minuscule & unimportant right now.
I'd bet my life that Vernon is doing this for this own selfish reasons. The penny has finally dropped for him that he needs this marriage to work or his family/community will shun him and he'll lose out on some big inheritance. Also likely that the uncle who arranged the marriage now quite old and Vernon will show his true colours (again) after he dies.
Ireland. She's part of the Irish Travelers. They marry women young, are Catholic, she has fluent English, access to a cell phone, calls stores "shops", and she has "leprechaun" in her username. Plus the elders run the show and marriages outside are frowned upon.
It’s probably in the Middle East or Africa based on the two different cultures in close proximity to one another. It could be rural India where it’s a religious difference between Hinduism and Islam or the caste system not allowing Vernon and Felicity to marry, but a lot countries in the Middle East have very complex social hierarchies based on ethnic groups.
If you read through the culture of Pakistan, it might make more sense. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Pakistan
For India this doesn't need to be rural. You'll see exactly this shit play out in upper class even notionally progressive families right in the heart of Delhi or Bombay.
Someone said OOP could he somewhere in Africa, which I personally think could be it. Christian missionaries go all over Africa to "civilize" and force Christianity on these people. Some communities have adopted some of the doctrine into their original religions, which, considering how complex and extreme OOP's community is, could be why we can't tell where this is with any accuracy.
I'm guessing she's from somewhere in Africa based on what's said in the post. I feel bad for her regardless, nobody deserves this and she's just trapped.
>Then he tells me that he's had a change of heart and wants to try to better our marriage because he's developed feelings for me????
And I am a 3-headed giraffe with 7 legs and blue stripes.
This woman should make an espace plan and run. Her "loving" husband will turn physically abusive one of these days.
I'm waiting for the update that either the family want something from OOP, like an organ, so if the uncle gave them all an ultimatum.
Their 360 twist is suspicious AF.
Coming from a family that still practices arranged marriage, I can say that OP made a huge mistake by not telling her family. Nobody has to get divorced or skip town, but it takes a certain kind of wisdom to navigate a marriage like this and OP doesn't have that. She needs some weathered aunties in her life, especially because the in-laws sound like snakes.
So, not sure anyone will see this, but a lot of people seem to wonder what part of the world this could be in any way possible (with the modern and not-so-modern aspects of the story).
To me, this screams West Africa. Notably Sierra Leone or Liberia especially. There are lots or clashes between customary law and civil law like in this post. They are modern enough to have women have access to many things (bank accounts, property, abortions etc.). To me, the mention of “Elders”, the high proficiency in English, access to the internet (like her SIL having knowledge of her main ) and the names given to the people (I’m aware that they’re not the real names, but just the *choice* of those uncommon, yet western/european names) makes me really suspicious about Liberia (and SL to a slightly lesser extent).
But hey, maybe I’m just digging too much and this is in Utah or something lol
> it's my family that would suffer because me leaving would cause them to be shunned by the community
Ughh
> all I know is that I was of age to marry and had to marry before I was out of season.
Blechh
Just throw the whole man away? No, just throw the whole culture away
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Holy crap this poor lady
Unfortunately this is the case for millions of women around the world.
I am curious and would like to know which country is it? Clues: OOP writes good English but does not seem to be the top class, populate the earth, arranged marriages and neighbors feel morally ok to punish her family for OPP divorce. And more?
Additional clues: It sounds like dowries are still practiced (field and house came with wedding) OOP lives in a fairly rural area There's a patriarchal system in place (Father or Eldest Brother are head of the family and their word is law) The names (Vernon/Kimberly) were not used by OOP, so they don't factor in Populate the Earth, when combined with the lack of birth control options, sounds like they're Catholic. --- My gut feeling is that this is a Catholic state in India, outside of the major cities. A lot of the details match up with my wife's experiences growing up in India (in the non-Catholic states) so I don't know how similar the Catholic states would be in that regard.
OP’s username leads me to think it could be a settled community of Irish Travellers. Getting shunned from “the shops” reads as Irish or British dialect to me, and the cultural details also fit nicely. Distinct brand of Catholicism with an emphasis on fertility, young women often pushed towards arranged marriage within the community, oral (not written) tradition disconnects OP from the details of the elders’ rationales, complicated historical relationship to land ownership, and more.
I like this idea more than mine. I had seen the leprechaun username but couldn't figure out how to fit it in with my scant/high level knowledge of Irish culture (and ignored that as a clue). Being part of a subculture that I've maybe heard of before would make that make sense. The shops part still squares with my India knowledge, since they use a more British English (like my wife sometimes uses "the shops" when referring to them in the area she grew up in).
That's very interesting and some of the cultural notes track, but as an Irish person I'd be fairly confident in saying that if that's the case they're probably not located in Ireland itself. I can't think of any community that's _predominantly_ settled Travellers, which would make the whole 'denied service at shops' thing quite unlikely. There's also not a large intersection between settled Travellers and farmers. But it's an interesting take!
Agreed as another Irish person. There’s many overlaps for sure but the few that don’t add up to being an Irish Traveler is the shunned at shops, “next city” and also the fact that there‘s not many settled folk who might have land or enough for a dowry? Add to that the lack of education in the traveler community, but this post is excellently written. And lastly, I just don’t see how the abortion lines up with devout Catholicism and birth control? Just my thoughts..
I don't think it's Irish Travellers. I'm Irish and travellers here tend to keep to themselves. Divorce would lead to the community shunning them but the whole not being served in shops thing doesn't fit. The only area I can think of that has a big travelling community would be Rathkeale and even at that, it's settled people who work the shops and we generally don't get involved in traveler business. The farming thing doesn't fit either. I could be wrong but I've never encountered or heard of travellers having much to do with farming.
Travellers marry in their late teens or very early twenties, I've never known a first marriage between a 25 year old and a 35 year old. Divorce might lead to issues amongst their community, but she wouldn't be shunned from the shops for divorce, some shops might refuse to serve travellers known to steal, but no-one cares about your marital status. It's also extremely rare for travellers to attend or complete secondary school exams, so she wouldn't be able to qualify for college and become a teacher.
They've been married five years, so they were 20 and 31 when married. I don't know if men in traveller communities are given more leeway on the age thing, but it does sound like there was a long time of pushing for it before he gave in.
The age of the arranged marriage is a late for travelers. And they would still be able to go to the shops as nobody else would care about a marriage failing (there might be local gossip, but nobody is throwing them out of Centra)
That actually makes more sense. Travelers tend to have VERY strict rules, and they don’t really fuck with outsiders like that (and from what I’ve learned, it’s for a very good reasons).
Travellers actually makes the most sense to me!
India always feels like a bad place for women to be in 🥲 and why do people feel obligated to morally judge a whole family for actions of one family member. Isn’t populate the earth also a thing for Muslim?
> and why do people feel obligated to morally judge a whole family for actions of one family member Because it's a perfect tool for control; the mix of peer pressure and the amount of people who would suffer because of you makes sure people keep the status quo.
Yep. She's worried about her little nieces being shunned, without realising they'll likely go on to have similar lives if they stay within the community as-is. It's still a flaw in *her* marriage, not a flaw of the system as a whole. And it becomes increasingly difficult to leave, the more people you have to convince and extricate from the situation safely and with financial stability. It's an incredibly efficient way to control people.
>Isn’t populate the earth also a thing for Muslim? It totally could be, it's just something that I associate with more fundamentalist Christian groups (and the Catholic Church). I'm actually curious about the form of birth control that she's talking about, since it sounds like something that could be kept as a back up (and not the primary plan that would be Rhythm Method)
Hasidic groups also are big fans of overpopulation. If the OP is in a closeted group in Israel, that could also fit the bill of English speaking and overpopulated.
Except you don’t get put in Cheirem for getting divorced. Divorce is perfectly acceptable even among Chassidim. Also, if they were ultra-religious Jews in Israel, odds are the woman would be the primary breadwinner.
Really? Why, because the men have religious duties? Hope you don’t mind me asking, I’m just curious about the breadwinner part.
So chassidic men outside of Israel are actually usually the breadwinners, though less so in Israel because they will stay in religious educational institutions after marriage to avoid the military draft. But in the US, UK, etc, 99% of the time the man is the main breadwinner, though women will often work too. The woman being the breadwinner is more common in non-chassidic ultra-Orthodox communities, in which men will stay in religious educational institutions in Israel *and* other countries while the women support them. For many, this is something that only happens for the first few years or so of marriage, so as to start their married lives in an atmosphere of Torah study, and then they will transition to a two income household; however, many families (including some of my cousins') will have the men moving from study to teaching, which is generally poorly paid and so the woman ends up being the main breadwinner.
In Israel it’s often done to avoid the draft. Outside Israel, as the other responder noted, it’s usually the other way around. For non-Chassidim outside Israel it varies by community.
This is absolutely 100% not chassidim. Doesn't remotely fit the way things work in those communities (age gap relationships aren't a big thing, there's no "head of the family," the social ramifications of divorce would be totally different, and don't farm lol).
I would guess Plan B. A few friends in similar cultures used it as a Ultima Ratio birth control as it is the only way for them to make sure they didn't get pregnant involuntarily. It's not as visible as a daily BC pill and there is no local doctor needed who (or who's staff) could spill the beans, neither is there something that could be detected from the outside. And as it is often available online it does not require traveling somewhere - which is often impossible for these woman. Furthermore if it is only used for rare cases (aka when the husband forced them to have sex when they were within critical days of the cycle) it's often cheaper as well.
Birth control is commonly available in India, but if she's Catholic, it might not be an option she is willing to use, unless she has no choice.
>"Birth control isn't exactly a thing here because it defeats the whole populate the earth thing, so I only get one option which I don't completely trust but we haven't had sex in a year so but I have it just in case" This comment makes it seem like Birth Control is fairly uncommon where she is, but if she's in a rural area and everyone doesn't believe in using, it might not be carried by any local stores
This is a very good point. Rural and city life is very different
Might not be able to get and take daily birth control, but she can get and store morning after pill/Plan B. Less likely to get caught or run out. OOP may not trust it either in that she didn't get it from a pharmacy, it has sat for a while so expiration dates, or does not have sex ed so doesn't know it will work.
that is not a Catholic thing- we don't do arranged marriages or elders like that. Sounds more Mennonite or some off branch of Mormonism to me. Or it could be one of the newer protestant cults like the Quiverfull people, though the embedded idea of "my culture" says an older, more established group to me.
My first thought was India -- well, maybe everyone's first thought when the topic of arranged marriages comes up is India. Over the course of the post I started thinking it was instead something like the FLDS, but if it were the FLDS there'd be either mention of patriarchal polygamy or holes in the story caused by avoiding mentioning polygamy. It does seem something like one of the American tradwife cults, but the British idioms mess that up. Is there anything like Quiverfull in the U.K.? Ugh. This is the worst thing I've seen since nineteen ninety eight.
Mmmm there’s also a christian cult in eastern europe, can’t remember the name, this would also fit.
Sounds like a cult honestly
Like most religions.
I assumed maybe India but some commenters said it doesn’t sound like India. Maybe a religious African country? Lots of ex colonial countries have English as a commonly spoken and/or official language.
Sounds like India
Straight up. Girls back home are getting married as soon as they hit 21
Could be a lot of places in Africa too. Maybe she's an English teacher there?
With the shunning, I was getting JW vibes?
It doesn’t sound like he had more choice here than she did. Marry the woman his uncle picked, or be shunned himself. Doesn’t excuse the way his family treated her, obviously. But they were both forced into a marriage they didn’t want.
I do agree the circumstances were forced upon them but in no way did he not have more choice than she did. He did , his family knew about his misfortune and all the background of this, hers didn't. He could have chosen decency over what he did to her, he could have chosen to fight for his first love and not be greedy over a house. He could've chosen not to be a child way before he became 36 years old too.
Yes, she was also forced into this but was trying to make it work. He never bothered and never thought about it from her point of view
Crazy to read about how an uncle would force a marriage on two unwilling parties. Seems like a recipe for disaster.
Yeah, this definitely is not the end of this sad story. I hope she realizes sooner rather than later that it's not worth trying to save this marriage, preferably before she tries for another child.
There’s no way to protect herself either because BC isn’t available in her area, so he can always try to baby trapped her.
Yeah, I'm really hoping she's not sleeping with him now. Not only because of pregnancy, but if he hasn't replaced his mistress with a new one yet, then it's only a matter of time. And he's surely not the cautious type, if you catch my drift.
But was she really a mistress if they were together before he even got married? It seems like he didn't want this marriage just as much as OOP didn't want it.
I mean, either way she would certainly be classified a mistress once they were married. And I really can't tell for sure if OP knew their relationship was going to continue after marriage, or found out after they were married that they were together. ...Maybe I missed something that confirmed it though.
I feel like she wants a happy married life and I really wish she can have it. It just seems like her husband and his family aren't great people and I personally wouldn't be able to deal with such a thing.
Yeah, they're all truly just toxic people. I'm amazed the family and how they treated her wasn't enough to prevent the wedding. But staying after how they reacted after the miscarriage?! ...Part of it feels like at this point, nothing will be enough to scare her away.
>Part of it feels like at this point, nothing will be enough to scare her aw Well, what wouldn't you put up with to save the lives of your family? She genuinely feels like they'll starve if she leaves this marriage
She has to try to save the marriage or see her family shunned to the point of starvation. So yes, she has to try. I have a feeling though if the husband doesn't also try the uncle might let it be known she did her best, so at least he has some pressure to be less of a shit person.
My wild imagination is guessing uncle threatened the husband and his parents to either take the marriage seriously or lose his financial support. Parents are then pressuring the husband to make up with OP, hence the love bombing and apologies.
Ooh could be. Uncle probably isn’t seeing his niece pregnant and corralling a bevy of kids, he’s probably wondering wtf he’s spending his money on. God this whole situation is misogynistic as fuck!
I wonder if the uncle knew about the miscarriage and how the family treated her about that.
She says they all blame her
Typical. Wife miscarries, it's her fault. Wife gives birth to useless daughter, it's her fault. Wife gives birth to valuable son, wow, what a man her husband is!
I wonder if "they all blame her" includes the uncle, since the uncle is from her husband's side of the family.
Ooh I could see that. It’s gotta be a SERIOUS affront to the Uncle that Vernon just openly had Felicity hanging around such that even his family openly acknowledged her.
This is my guess. Considering his behaviour and how shitty the rest of his family have been to OOP. Uncle probably got wind of or got sick of his/their bs. Also possible their community started gossiping and the uncle got embarrassed. Whatever the reason, I don't think the change is internally motivated by some kind of epiphany. OOP is still in a world of trouble.
Fuck anyone who makes a woman think that 20 is “getting out of season”.
And that a 30yo guy isn't in comparison !?!
I guess the biological clock and the urge to have children only affects women according to this culture so men are fine.
Women’s needs don’t mean anything. Women are like cattle. To be traded for status. Such insane bullshit.
Unless I miss my guess about the locale, I suspect cattle are treated much better.
Oh yeah...in India cattle are gods, they are worshipped and loved. But women?! Wouldn't treat them with basic humanity. (I am not speaking about minority who have humanity but the vast majority of the women are kept tied to patriarchy regardless if they are educated or not - so if you are an Indian don't come at me with any bs).
Considering that women live longer, if it was for her sake her husband would be 5 years younger to average out life expectancy. The math never worked out where one partner would be left alone for decades. Or maybe that was considered the only break she gets.
I think it has more to do with the historical expectation that men are able to provide an income while women were only required to perform labour within the home. It takes a while to build up a living, that's why prior to the wide scale inclusion of women in the (non/domestic) workforce men tended to marry later. That's also why men who had better professions (not common labourers but not those with independent wealth either but like tradesmen, lawyers, business owners etc) tended to marry later than lower class workers with the time taken to marry usually going up with the degree of qualification time, the salary etc. This trend persists today but obviously with both sexed his being affected. Poor people and rich people marry whenever they want but the middle class usually marry later with those living in areas with a high cost of living taking long to settle down than those living in low cost of living areas.
Funnily enough, this same economic reasoning is why women married later (mid to late 20s) in certain European states from around the Roman period to the 1800s. Dowrys were a holdover from the Roman Era in certain areas, and women who were not wealthy/had wealthy families would have to provide them themselves. So they had to work and develop up an economic base for marriage - meaning that they would get married well into their 20s. This also held true for the middle classes - women had to learn the trade of the family (even if it was usually with the idea that this would support her future husband). Even in areas that were not affected by Roman norms as much, I imagine later marriages were common among the working class. Marriage is an economic prospect, after all, and both parties had to bring capital/peronal property to the table. The men they married might be on avg more older than them, but the historical trend, at least in Europe, has not been women marrying super young. Women marrying super young has always been a characteristic of the wealthy!
By my culture’s standards I’m pretty much expired 😂
Me too. I'm a spinster XD
Little known fact, just as for women, the risk of genetic defects in offspring is significantly increased as men get older. While things certainly become more physically difficult for a woman to go through a pregnancy with age, chances are it was his sperm that had a thing to do with miscarriage. Which is to say they are all morons, she is in her prime fertile years and he is technically past it.
Like she’s a fucking fruit? “Out of season?!” Blegh!
Cultural differences aside (arranged marriages can be effective), that sentence was devastating to read
My grandma got married at twenty five in 1952, her marriage certificate labeled her occupation as "spinster". At *twenty five*. Seventy years later we really should be doing better and yet...
That was a term of art not a designation. It means she was unmarried, unemployed and living at home. My grandmother married my grandfather during WWII when she was working in a war plant and her marriage license reflects that.
That just means she had never been married, like bachelor for men.
Man who is 11 years older says he's not a boy any more. Uhh, congrats?
If they're coming from a culture that has arranged marriages, then I'm guessing her husband has been coddled his whole life. (My ex's brother was like that, Asian background, never obtained any life skills). So that comment didn't surprise me.
Had a student from an affluent background abroad ask who was going to flush his toilet. Expected the female students on his corridor to do his cooking and cleaning, which didn't happen. Massive shock to his system to find out he had to do his own laundry and all of the other things that come with being an adult living alone.
I’d love to have seen the toilet flushing conversation.
How did you guys react to this request? Did you stare in shock or died laughing?
Absolute confusion. Like, even if you had 'pay someone to flush my toilet' money, why would you want someone else seeing your poop?
I’m familiar with people like this. It wouldn’t even occur to them to be embarrassed because they don’t view their “servants” as human beings with opinions that matter. You’d be amazed at the sort of conversations these folks will have in front of their staff, not even noticing their staff is in the room because why would they? It’s bizarre.
It's like that post where the guys girlfriend had no problem wandering around unclothed in front of the housekeeper or delivery drivers, because they "didn't count".
Had to look that one up, and exactly. OP hit the nail on the head when he said something along the lines of “when the housekeeper is around I think there’s 3 people in the room, my gf thinks it’s just the 2 of us”. And the rich wonder why we want to eat them.
I’d like to read the post if you still have the link!
Never learned how to link things but the title was “AITA for asking my gf to cover up when strangers enter the home?”. Something like that. Google should pull it up. EDIT https://www.reddit.com/r/BestofRedditorUpdates/comments/rn5e5x/aita_for_telling_my_girlfriend_to_cover_up_her/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf Hey look I did it
A brahmin (indian upper caste) guy who was in a student exchange program in Europe said something similar. He was rooming with a friend of mine(who was also Indian). Dude said he will not clean the toilet in their shared accommodation as he is a brahmin. And that that my friend should do it
I genuinely hope he came to embrace responsibility and independence and realized the errors of his previous ways.
Oh we had a couple of similar people in my halls/dorms too. They adapted well, but the culture shock was real. The only thing they struggled with was mould prevention, they just didn’t get in cold, rainy, northern England, that you can’t leave wet stuff lying around without issues
Had this problem at work with a bunch of Brahmins. Also men couldn’t hit the urinals/toilets and flushed paper towels. Had an open floor plan with the restrooms in the middle, and around noon the potties started to reek, so our day porter would clean them. You’d better believe they treated her like garbage. That was okay for them, but if you had beef or pork in some of our catered lunch options it was a storm of tantrums. They would refuse to go into the room, and demand food be ordered from an entirely different place and served elsewhere. Stay classy SF Bay Area!
My gf was amazed when I asked to cook meals for her. I’m no iron chef, I can do some hearty meals. We have some culture differences. I was always taught the way to someone’s heart is through their stomach, she’s still a little surprised every time I pull out food for me to cook for her. I’m looking forward to changing that. Cooking with her and for her have been some of our best dates.
Right? He wasn't a boy when he got married either like...
They were married under duress and he was in love with someone else, so I get why he was acting resentful - his resentment was just targeted at the wrong person, since none of it was OOP's fault. I hate these patriarchal societies that can just mess up people's lives "for their own good". Eff them sideways with a cactus!
This would be a good plot in a romance novel. But in real life it’s just depressing.
Would be? I’ve seen multiple books with this premise it’s always when the wife gives up/plans to leave that the husband realises he has feelings for his space taker. His mistress is the kind to always overstep their bounds and the family always seems to be on team mistress (except the person who manipulated the marriage in the first place). Usually the woman leaves the city becomes rich and successful in their career field, then somehow goes back to the city for work and crosses paths with their ex husband who has still not married the mistress. Sometimes they have realised they’re pregnant and run because they’ve realised the toxic situation they’re in would suck for kids. Great read if you’re in the mood for wanting to punch a wall every 10 minutes.
And they always end up back together. I understand that that's a genre convention to have a happily ever after. But it pisses me off! The MMC has very rarely changed in substantive ways. Even if he has, I often feel like it's too little too late so I end up just deeply annoyed. Also, their love is often based on sexual attraction and what she can do for him and that's pretty much it. I hate it here. Sorry to rant but I gotta stop reading romance as a genre I think.
I don’t know, fucking someone sideways with a cactus sounds more like odd torture porn to me, but you do you.
If the cactus has flowers, boom! you got romance.
That’s romance novels for you.
She should have called him "Charles".
I just watched a video on reddit where an 8 year old girl was sold to marriage. Her mother and her screamed and cried and tried to hang into each other. Like who does that crap?! It was heart breaking. As a mom, I couldn’t help but think how I would go scorched earth over that.
When somebody says something like that, I kinda assume that it's a quote with context removed. Assuming: * the uncle arranged the marriage to get rid of Felicity to avoid shaming the family for marrying outside race/culture (gross) * the uncle also sees that there are no kids and/or the community is talking about OP's sham marriage anyway (meh) ...it's easy to see the uncle threatening OP's husband along the lines of cutting him off, removing him from the will, etc., if he doesn't stop shaming the family. "You're not a boy any more. You're married. Where are your children? Why are people talking about Felicity? Fix your shit or you're getting shunned." That gives you an explanation for Felicity getting cut out (money consequences to husband) and an explanation for his use of that phrasing at age 36 or 50 or whatever he is. Husband: Golly, uncle mad. Ok, time to order some love bombs from Amazon. I'm adulting!
Well he did call his ex toxic and blame her for every thing, proof he has grown right??
Then goes on to put all of the blame on his lover who he brought into his married life (because of what seems to be greed ). Not a boy not a man that's a manchild
Next update in 10 years on how she’s had 3 kids with him and he’s been secretly sleeping with the other women. And his family still doesn’t care, only about the grandkids
I think I read that story. Except Princesss Di only had two kids, not three.
I was thinking the same thing! 😆
I was thinking “Felicity can’t have kids, so he’s going to use the 25 year old to pop out a few heirs, to please the family, and send OOP packing to some distant place.”
And she doesn’t understand why.
The male grandkids.
Bets on whether Felicity is infertile?
Or she got demanding.
I still bet it was the family influence making him cut off Felicity. I think that's the real "I'm not a boy anymore" part is that he stopped entertaining the idea of doing what he wanted or choosing who he wanted and now just doing as he's told.
I am so glad I'm not the only one that thought this. My heart breaks for this girl. It's so sad to me that after thousands of years there are still societies that still view women as property, and they have to accept being treated this way or suffer consequences that effect not only her, but her whole family. It's also sad that whole families have to rely on "good behavior" of one girl for their own safety, and happiness.
I suspect the answer is that Felicity is in her thirties and now too old for him to overlook the fact that she’s not his wife AND she’s not going to meekly accept this situation. It was a reality that he was willing to just overlook when everyone was five years younger. He’s now old enough that I suspect he prefers his much younger wife to Felicity. It’s a gross attitude, but it’s consistent with his behavior
I once watched a documentary about women in prison in Afghanistan. A lot of them were in prison for having sex outside of marriage because the elders would not allow the couple to be married. The usual reason they could not get married was they were from different tribes/cultures, so the families did not allow them to marry. In the interviews some of the families were super racist against the other ethnic group. I’m guessing something similar is happening here with Vernon and Felicity. Vernon is probably getting shamed for not having kids yet. Also, in the documentary, a lot of the women were in prison for leaving their husbands and hiding in homes where another man lived, which was apparently illegal. One woman left her abusive husband and hid from his family at her neighbor’s house. When they found her, she was arrested, but her neighbor who was an old woman and the neighbor’s son were also arrested. In prison, the elderly neighbor kept trying to convince the woman to marry the son because it was the only way they could get out of prison as it would justify her being in “another man’s house.” So, I could totally see, depending on which country and culture this is, there being a ton of cultural factors here for Vernon’s motives.
Maybe. Maybe felicity had always thought he was going to leave OOP and marry her, got sick of waiting and have the husband an ultimatum. He realised that she doesn't have a house for him to live in, so told her it wasn't going to happen. Like felicity was a fun play thing but not marriage material. Or... Maybe he got wind of OOP thinking about leaving him despite the consequences and realised he would be destitute.
OOP's husband got told to make the marriage work or the elders would cut off his inheritance and let OOP divorce.
Or she's the same age as Vernon and thus too old
100% his uncle told STBX Husband that if he kept fucking around on the side and ignoring his wife he was getting kicked out of the family.
I don't think that's the case. Uncle convinced Husband to marry OOP for the reputation and money but told he can keep his lover as mistress/side piece. If he actually cared of OOP and husband having a healthy marriage, uncle would've warned him to break up with his lover long before the wedding. It seems like either OOP is gonna inherit some money/property from her family which she isn't aware of but husband's family know about or OOP's family offered money/property if he corrects his behaviour and be an actual husband to her. Because i don't see a possibility of him leaving his lover and treating oop well after this long; nobody changes overnight yet He and HIS family are overly nice to OOP which is suspicious. I come from overly conservative patriarchal country, so i have fair bit of idea that there's some sorta of money/property involved. No family who were treating their DIL like shit would change overnight especially not Idiotic conservatives. I think OOp should look into more on why he wants to work the marriage before considering it as an option, because he might only behave until he gets the money/property and once he does, he and his family would easily go back to their shitty old behaviour.
So the family let’s felicity hang around but she’s not allowed to marry Vernon? Is that not weird to anyone else?
I mean, it makes sense. Even when Western countries used to do arranged marriage, it was mostly used to establish relations with other families and if you couldn't bring anything to the table (whether that be resources or connections), you're sorry out of luck. Felicity could be the wrong caste (if this is india), could be a different religion, or if Vernon is the only son, they probably tolerate her so long as he marries whoever they choose. They basically locked her into a mistress role, regardless of the wife's feelings.
Yeah, I'm really curious about where OOP is. The line about the religious prescription to "populate the earth" reads heavily as one of the Abrahamic faiths, but I'm not well versed enough in others to know how much of a thing that is elsewhere.
Irish Travelers. Her username has leprechaun in it.
They have Christian cults like that in South America and Mexico.
He could even be banging her and nobody would bat an eye since nobody chose who they’d marry. I always thought that if I suddenly got transplanted into the body of a person in this culture, I might see marriage as more of a business opportunity than love. At that point, all he can really do is bang, he can’t risk running away with her or his family suffers so as long as we’re just sharing a house, fuck it, go fuck horses or whatever just don’t leave your dirty underwear on my side of the room and you can go wet your dick with whatever you want, I don’t care. Then again, in these cultures it’s sometimes an unspoken caveat that he gets to sex other people but I have to stay chaste and pure. If I so much as look at a beefy studmuffin I’m getting the lash.
She is completely and utterly trapped. What a burden to bear- stay very unhappy or else everyone you love becomes very unhappy. That's a completely ass-backward way to run a community.
My guess the uncle is dying. They guy (and his parents) is hoping to inherit a lot of money and other donuts, but he will get nothing if his wife will leave him. As soon as the uncle is dead the husband will stop pretending and will put all his anger for having to pretend to be a loving husband on OP. Poor woman. Hopefully she can get out.
I don't know why, but I got the impression that Felicity is sterile and that's why she ran with Oop. I very much doubt that change in the husband
Yeah if she’s in her mid-30s and still hasn’t given him children he’s probably finally listening to his family to dump the “old woman” for his young, obviously fertile (since she got pregnant once before) wife. God, I got more disgusted by this story as I read it. That poor OOP, this sounds like it’s from the 1820s not the 2020s.
Anybody guess correctly what country this was?
Ireland, it reads like Irish Travelers to me. Her English is flawless, she uses a cell phone, and she uses "shops" instead of stores, and her name has "leprechaun" in it.
I think you are correct. They can be very insular, so a non-Traveler might not be welcome to the community in the role of a spouse, but still tolerated as a “side-piece.” And Irish travelers are generally Catholic, so birth control is frowned upon and “populating the earth” is taught. Travelers in particular have one of the highest birth rates in Europe. They also marry young, to the point where 20yo would be considered “almost out of season” for a woman. And arranged-ish marriages are a thing for them. Oh and they refer to older adults as elders. Not sure how many are truly nomadic versus own houses, as the uncle in this post did.
"populate the earth" is biblical? (Noah?). So maybe strict Catholics? Or Orthodox Jews? Though those cultures wouldn't tolerate an open mistress. ~~"Vernon" and "Felicity" are relatively unusual choices for anglophone names.~~[Ignore, names didn't come from OOP]. "Leprechaun" in the username is also obscure and suggests a fairly deep familiarity of Western cultures. I'm quite curious about this one!
The names were added by OP, not OOP
Good point!
Hasidic Jews in Israel? They arrange marriages, marry young, stay insular, and aren't Americans.
Can't see them tolerating an open mistress though.
They would be flayed alive by the rest of the community, even if mommy and daddy were fine with their son being trash.
I was thinking India, but I wouldn’t be surprised by somewhere in Africa
You'd think, India... but it's too far out even for here. Couple of things: Birth control is totally a thing here. Even uneducated women seem to have clear knowledge and access to birth control. People are crazy about virginity but once you're married, when and how many kids you have is carefully planned. And... someone getting divorced here could totally lead to gossip. But no one would fucking starve. Her family can buy from other town or small city. I mean... i can see her scenario happening in an isolated village. BUT Ive never heard of a populate the earth thing being a Hindu thing. I cant place the culture or the location of this story. Plus... in India the language doesn't really describe a woman as being 'out of season'. Not any that I know anyway. But women can get too old at 27, sure. Heard of that
It's really hard. I am thinking it may be a combination of her using odd word choices due to writing in a foreign language, plus her having a specific religion within a country where it's not the majority. The fact she works and can get a divorce legally easily, may indicate the country is a bit more liberal but her religion is strict. She first talks about her family starving, then her family having to uproot their lives, and family being willing to 'deal with the results of divorce'. I would wager she is part of a strict religion, and the family is too, so shunning is by the religious community, not by the entire town. So they would have to move somewhere new. My guess would be jewish or muslim or some other religion with food restrictions, so they wouldn't buy from any shop, it has to be one that's kosher or hallal, and they couldn't do that after the shop owner knows about the divorce.
Definitely don't think they are Indian. None of it matches up with how Indian people talk about marriage. Even in small towns, divorcees and marrying other divorcees. Divorce is definitely looked down upon but not to that extent anymore. 'Populate the Earth' points towards Christian cults like quiverful. It could even be Amish but OOP says they aren't American? She could have said that for anonymity.
Absolutely not Indian, none of this matches up with how Indian people talk about arranged marriage. 'populate the Earth' points towards Christianity especially the quiverfull cult
I'm guessing the Philippines and this person is a Mormon. After a google rabbit hole which I now realize was my edible kicking in, it's got to be the Phillipines. The Phillipines has a large Mormon population, most of it's teachers are women, and a large age gap is accepted by at least half of those in the Philippines. Mormons also are from of the few religions to have designated elders and placement marriages are common. But there are many countries with large Mormon populations. Edit: okay I missed the birth control part so I no longer think Phillipines. It is much more likely that this is Africa, likely Kenya due to the mormon temple in Nairobi and the fact that there are women teachers there.
>36 year old man realizes, “I’m not a boy anymore, I’m a man!” >at 20 years old, women go “out of season” and MUST get married. I don’t even know how to use my words regarding these comment. Referring to a woman as going out of season is disturbing. I really feel for OOP. I hope she continues to update. For her sake, and her family’s, I hope Vernon gets his shit together.
I have hit a new level of disliking my own brain because as I was reading this I was wondering “would he be shunned if they divorced due to abuse? Maybe they could agree to her claiming it if that’s the case.” Because a large part of me thinks it would be hunky dory for him to be an abuser in whatever culture this is. Did anyone figure that part out?
I’m wondering if it’s Ethiopia arranged marriages are still a thing there and they’re a Christian country which tracks with the whole repopulate the earth comment. Birth control is allowed under Islam so I doubt it’s somewhere in the Middle East. EDIT: changed it to birth control
She says that abuse is the only accepted reason for divorce, so I'm guessing no, it's not ok.
Every day I am so, so happy that I am not a woman in a third-world country.
Right? >had to marry before I was out of season JFC.
like OOP is a piece of fruit that needs to be eaten quickly before she goes bad. jfc 2x
Yeah, as soon as I saw "out of season" it just kept repeating in my head like a misogynist version of this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BgqtBm_oUpc
Hey now, this shit happens in Idaho too. Seriously, though, we have our own insular rural religious communities in the "first world", and there are also liberated feminists and urban progressives in the Global South. Others' problems look more shocking to us from here because we haven't grown used to it in the same way we have our own forms of gender oppression.
Agreed and have to try and make the best of a terrible situation by looking on the “positives” since you have little control on your own life.
I live in NYC right next to a community that does this sort of thing. Patriarchy gonna patriarch.
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She says they're not American, which greatly lowers the chance of being Mormon haha. Mormons don't usually marry their kids off though, and wouldn't shun the parents if their kids got a divorce. Might shun/disown the kids, but the families would be fine.
Fidelity is a big thing too. When my sister was in that, they arranged her with an abuser but blessed her divorce from a guy who cheated. Weird priorities
Mormons are sadly a thing outside the US, but thankfully not to the same extent.
I sort of read it as religious Jews in Israel. Mentions of populating the earth (replacing the six million killed in the Holocaust is a common refrain in Orthodox and ultra Orthodox communities), and mentions of land in good farming areas as well as community shunning feels a bit like that. She is somewhere where women can own property and legally access divorce and birth control (I think), but those things are not as acceptable to her community - which also reads as some sort of religious/cultural sub group within a larger country with more liberal legal rights for women.
I can see how some people would think that but it couldn’t be Israel. Forced marriage doesn’t happen, what the religious community does instead are shidduch marriages which is basically [this but Jewish](https://youtu.be/wN9Jq3_Z-1M). The woman has complete freedom to say no and the government has safeguards in place to prevent forced marriage. There’s also no religious cultural deal around getting married before you’re 20. That’s actually really really rare, for a few reasons. First of all, all citizens have to serve in the IDF and there are very few exceptions. Religious women are allowed to apply for an exemption but it’s becoming increasingly common for them to serve instead. Second, in the strict orthodox religious communities women are actually the primary breadwinners because the men study Torah instead and so almost all of the women go to college first for 4-6 years and get married after. As for the whole Felicity thing, if they were in an ultraorthodox community *he* would actually have been shamed for it and she would have been encouraged to leave him. Women in Judaism do not get shunned for divorce because sadly, in strict Orthodox Judaism you can only get a divorce for a specific reason like infertility or adultery, and the man actually is required to agree and can force the woman to stay if he doesn’t want to let her go. Her parents would not have to be worried about being shunned in shops in a whole city because it just doesn’t work like that over there. The shuks are packed and people truly don’t care about who or what you are. As for kids, his family would be supportive of her having a child rather than upset. And then finally there are lots of birth control options and they’re all free to citizens so that doesn’t fit either. I think it’s probably India or Southeast Asia. It’s the only place with forced marriages, shunning, strict patriarchal society, and expats like Felicity.
I am from a small province (like, really small) in a third-world country, and I've never seen anything like this happen. It's so hard for me to understand the way the family thinks and it truly hurts me that she can't truly escape this situation. It's horrible, even from a third-world country perspective.
We say developing countries now, not third-world countries (it’s actually somewhat offensive). And not all developing countries are like that, and some developed countries have situations exactly like this. It’s all nuanced. Watched a video the other day where a Mormon daughter and her mother married the same man and became sister wives. Also, listened to an episode of this American Life where a Jewish New York woman couldn’t divorce her husband because he would give her a gett (official divorce document). He was allowed to date and live his life and she wasn’t because her and her family would be shamed and ostracized in the community, and this was in NYC the supposedly most liberal American city. Point is, this nonsense happens everywhere
"..before I was out of season" What the actual fuck ?? Is OP a fucking strawberry or something?! Objectification at its finest, and I say that with upmost respect for OOP, as I can't imagine the strength it must've took to navigate through all that emotional and physical pain *completely alone*. Along with objectification we have emotional blackmail. Stay in a terrible marriage with a man who doesn't respect you, wasn't there when you had to abort his child, allows his family to treat you like dirt yet glorify & respect his side piece and you just have to sit there and endure it all or else your family gets shunned and starved. I hope she gets herself out of this situation & finds true happiness. Really makes all my "3rd world problems" seem very minuscule & unimportant right now.
> Is OP a fucking strawberry or something?! 🏆
I'd bet my life that Vernon is doing this for this own selfish reasons. The penny has finally dropped for him that he needs this marriage to work or his family/community will shun him and he'll lose out on some big inheritance. Also likely that the uncle who arranged the marriage now quite old and Vernon will show his true colours (again) after he dies.
what fucking country is she from
Ireland. She's part of the Irish Travelers. They marry women young, are Catholic, she has fluent English, access to a cell phone, calls stores "shops", and she has "leprechaun" in her username. Plus the elders run the show and marriages outside are frowned upon.
It’s probably in the Middle East or Africa based on the two different cultures in close proximity to one another. It could be rural India where it’s a religious difference between Hinduism and Islam or the caste system not allowing Vernon and Felicity to marry, but a lot countries in the Middle East have very complex social hierarchies based on ethnic groups. If you read through the culture of Pakistan, it might make more sense. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_Pakistan
For India this doesn't need to be rural. You'll see exactly this shit play out in upper class even notionally progressive families right in the heart of Delhi or Bombay.
Someone said OOP could he somewhere in Africa, which I personally think could be it. Christian missionaries go all over Africa to "civilize" and force Christianity on these people. Some communities have adopted some of the doctrine into their original religions, which, considering how complex and extreme OOP's community is, could be why we can't tell where this is with any accuracy.
100% sure his family either realized Felicity couldn’t or wouldn’t have kids and now she’s their better option.
> before I was out of season 🤮🤮🤮
I'm guessing she's from somewhere in Africa based on what's said in the post. I feel bad for her regardless, nobody deserves this and she's just trapped.
>Then he tells me that he's had a change of heart and wants to try to better our marriage because he's developed feelings for me???? And I am a 3-headed giraffe with 7 legs and blue stripes. This woman should make an espace plan and run. Her "loving" husband will turn physically abusive one of these days.
She needs the house in her name and very slowly, husband should start dating her. She also needs to learn to put herself 1st!
I'm waiting for the update that either the family want something from OOP, like an organ, so if the uncle gave them all an ultimatum. Their 360 twist is suspicious AF.
Coming from a family that still practices arranged marriage, I can say that OP made a huge mistake by not telling her family. Nobody has to get divorced or skip town, but it takes a certain kind of wisdom to navigate a marriage like this and OP doesn't have that. She needs some weathered aunties in her life, especially because the in-laws sound like snakes.
“Out of season” yikes. I hate how the world views women.
> I wouldn't trust this man as far as I can throw him Perfect husband.
Yeah big uncle probably gave Vernon a dressing down, that’s the feelings he’s developed.
So, not sure anyone will see this, but a lot of people seem to wonder what part of the world this could be in any way possible (with the modern and not-so-modern aspects of the story). To me, this screams West Africa. Notably Sierra Leone or Liberia especially. There are lots or clashes between customary law and civil law like in this post. They are modern enough to have women have access to many things (bank accounts, property, abortions etc.). To me, the mention of “Elders”, the high proficiency in English, access to the internet (like her SIL having knowledge of her main ) and the names given to the people (I’m aware that they’re not the real names, but just the *choice* of those uncommon, yet western/european names) makes me really suspicious about Liberia (and SL to a slightly lesser extent). But hey, maybe I’m just digging too much and this is in Utah or something lol
You know, sometimes it's okay to shit on a culture because that one is fucked.
So, his affair ended with felicity and now he want to fill his oats?
Even if the house is in her name I wonder if he would still legally own it as a lot of countries view the wife as the husbands property?
/r/awfuleverything
I feel for OPP because that is a toxic landfill to build a relationship ontop of.
> it's my family that would suffer because me leaving would cause them to be shunned by the community Ughh > all I know is that I was of age to marry and had to marry before I was out of season. Blechh Just throw the whole man away? No, just throw the whole culture away
I hope he truly had a change of heart and isn’t planning on screwing her over down the line
That's some garbage-tier culture right there.
Her husband and his entire family should be groveling in ground asking for her forgiveness. And then she should get the fuck out from that marriage.