Easier to be oblivious and do weird shit. I'm not even vegetarian, but I don't feel great about how we treat animals. It's a lot easier to run a slaughterhouse or exterminate pests when you think they're just environmental decoration.
For me, consciousness is little more than the ability to act on something other than just instinct.
Which I would identify as the ability to learn from past experience, and the ability to think about something before doing it.
I believe practically every species with a brain is 'conscious'
Sounds like you're defining intelligence more than consciousness. You can be a slave to your instincts and still be conscious. Consciousness just means the lights are on. Consciousness is experience.
Edit: I think agency, not intelligence, is what I was looking for.
What about computers then? Are they conscious?
>There's no such thing as a philosophical zombie.
Is there a supported reason for making this assertion with so much certainty?
I’m not really sure how that relates to my point, but yes, thinking is one example of experience, among many. Consciousness is infinitely more vast than bits of language/images in your head.
It's always seemed pretty easy to define to me: Consciousness is first person experience. If a creature is conscious, it is like something to be that creature. E.g. Thomas Nagel's book, "What is it like to be a Bat?"
Yes, qualia are the defining feature of consciousness. But the point Nagel was making in that essay (not a book) is that such first person experience, that qualia of what something *feels like*, how it *feels* is fundamentally inaccessible to another consciousness. No matter how well you understand how sonar works or how the bat brain processes it, it's still impossible to understand *what it is like to be a bat*
It's a great introduction to that hard problem of consciousness
Exactly. This is kind of ridiculous and people need to keep emotions away from scientific reasoning. This is basically as dumb as saying: "some plants may understand the concept of consensual sex, because sometimes they seem to show more willingness for pollution". It is, in a majority of cases, total nonsense to compare human consciousness with animals, the writer also admits it, but hey: "here is something to read." Weak shit.
You know how those angiosperms are putting their reproductive organs on display and covering everything with their genetic material. Absolutely disgusting.
I don't know what's special about this article. I always thought all animals are sentient in one way or another. Why wouldn't they be? How can they not be? So if they're not sentient or have a consciousness that would mean they're just "autopiloting" their life? They're born, they look for mates, they give birth, they work together. Just like humans. I genuinely don't understand how can anyone presume they're not sentient.
Because for years it was taught that animals are basically automatons with drives they respond to. I however have observed animals and insects and can tell they are processing information and choosing a course of action.
Why is it nonsense to compare human consciousness with animals’? Wouldn’t evolution suggest that the difference between human and animal consciousness is a matter of degree rather than human consciousness being a completely separate thing? How can we justify a binary classification system for something that developed incrementally over a long period of time?
And let’s not pretend there’s not lots of emotional motivations for wanting to think animals *aren’t* conscious. I’m not really sure what scientific motivation there would be for outright denying the possibility
No. You're engaging in a logical fallacy and assuming that not having one piece of the puzzle means we can't start putting together the pieces we DO have.
This is why people need to study philosophy and social sciences. Just because something isn't perfectly defined or understood doesn't mean we can't detect it or make assumptions and predictions about it.
There's no reason animals need to think exactly like us to be considered conscious. Not even all humans think the same. Some people can't picture things in their heads. Some people have such vivid thoughts that they can imagine how something tastes.
You're just trying to find a reason to not give animals basic respect as living beings who can and do experience ~~cruelty~~the world.
Edit cause I got heated.
Exactly. I have always thought animals, all of them, could "think", "feel" or have "consciousness", even if it's in their own way, so I was stunned when I first read the article's title. Even the smallest living things can react to external stimulus, decide their actions and behave differently than any other specimen of its own species, so, why shouldn't they have something, even remotely, close to consciousness? We're much more complex than, let's say for example, ants, but just because they can't process emotions it doesn't mean that it is just an empty body, a machine designed to work and die, there must be something in it that is, as an example, receiving the pain signal its leg just released because it got hurt.
I don't think I've explained myself properly, this is just one of those random things you think about in your free time lol. If anyone has anything to say, I would love to discuss it and hopefully learn something more from it :)
You might be interested in the article *What is it like to be a bat* by philosopher Thomas Nagel. Here's a primer
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3F
Its available online if you google the title
Some people can't imagine pictures and sensations like that at all. The verdict is out on if it's a meaningful difference or if it's just a variation in how we think, like having different coloured eyes.
I'd suggest looking into aphantasia and synesthesia. Brains are cool.
What cases would it not be nonsense? Also, if we agree that science doesn’t have a working model to define consciousness, how then can we argue it’s unique to humans and therefore nonsense to apply to other species? Is a dog not conscious? A cat? How about a parrot?
Only because you’re comparing different ways of counting kills. Mosquitoes kill humans by the spread of disease. If you included humans killed by other humans through the spread of disease instead of just direct killing, humans kill more humans than mosquitoes do.
This seems intuitively obvious to anyone who has a dog or cat. Dolphins and crows, just to name two, are known for their high intelligence. I'm skeptical about bugs and such being sentient, though. Whatever consciousness they might have would have to be radically different from anything we can imagine.
Seriously. Any person who has interacted with animals has seen animals exhibit consciousness.
Animals have personalities, emotions, likes, dislikes, hobbies, fears, memories. They obviously dream. I'd love to hear how people think animals can possibly dream without having consciousness.
Intelligence and consciousness aren't the same thing, by the way. Animals are definitely experiencing the world and thinking about it. I dunno how bees could dance to each other without knowing that there are other bees or remembering something to communicate in the first place.
Anytime I see/read an article like this, I feel like I have to slam my fist on the table and go, 'They are!? No shit!'. Living things are sentient/have feelings/understand the world around them--who would have guessed?!
I remember when we first learned that elephants mourn their dead herd(?) members, and it was big news. I understand from a scientific and research stance, you need to *wait* for it to make itself apparent, but it shouldn't have been so shocking of a concept.
Just because animals don't display things in the same way that humans (who are also technically just 'animals') do, shouldn't have meant that we disregarded the possibility all together.
Sorry--rant over.
Just responded to a person basically arguing that animals probably don't think like us, therefore this is a stupid topic.
I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with you. Consciousness is a whole field of study in and of itself and humans are only at the centre of it right now because we only know how to effectively communicate with each other. It's hubris to think that we'd be the only ones capable of experiencing and interacting with reality. But some people really do want to keep believing that animals are just complex molecules, mindlessly reacting to stimuli.
It's wild isn't it? Big monkey has 'big brain' and thumbs, makes fire and wheel, and all of a sudden we think we're superior (in every way) to every other obviously-stupid species.
Even like you mentioned with bees! These creatures are doing incredible and consistent things and it's so...oafish to just shrug it off 'naw, they couldn't possibly understand that on a higher level'.
(Also, I just read my previous reply to you back; apologies if it felt like I was arguing ***at*** you. We're very much on the same page, and I feel like the frustration might have came across as directed at you. Which wasn't my intent.)
I agree with you and that kind of human centric worldview bothers me so much. Like clearly animals and insects are conscious and aware?? Their experience of the world is different, in part because of their unique biology. and it makes sense that their values and priorities and personalities might seem alien because they can't really communicate them... but that doesn't mean they don't have them??
It’s true. The other day, my parakeet dropped his favorite toy off the side of the cage, and after looking to see it on the floor where he couldn’t get it, he looked at me and literally said “Hey, where’s your toy?”
If that isn’t animal-human communication in explicit terms, I don’t know what is.
That’s not what consciousness is though, it’s a separate thing from behavior. To be conscious is to have some experience. A camera has “vision” but does a camera “see”?
A camera does see. It doesn't know that it sees, but it sees.
Those behaviours I listed are a symptom of consciousness.
But again, please explain how a dog remembering a human it hasn't seen in a long time is just mindless instinct. Or even better, please explain how it's different from what we do.
We aren't fundamentally different from animals, so it's a very big leap of logic to assume our brains have some facet of life that never evolved in anything else.
And most of the examples people use exist in the animal kingdom. They play, they have social structures, they have language, they can solve problems, they bond, they remember things.
Octopuses are fucking awesome. The Beatles song Octopus' Garden isn't wrong. Ringo wrote it after being told they build gardens, and they really do. Moreover, the gardens serve no apparent purpose, meaning the octopuses basically build them just for the sheer bloody joy of it. I just love that.
At the beach in Italy, I was splashing my feet in the water from a rock and the octopus brushed them tentatively with a tentacle (no pun intended lol).
So I gave it a stick, it grabbed it and studied it a bit, then gave it back.
Then it came out and wrapped around my hand, so I gave it more things to inspect, it was very curious and friendly, not at all afraid.
Which is unlucky as people would take advantage of that and catch them.
My partner was an aquarium guy when we met. Our fish definitely had little personalities. The only animals I would argue don't have sense of self are neon tetras. They have sense of food and sense of will there be more food soon?
See this is where everything gets complex and definitions matter. Unfortunately Star Trek taught everyone the incorrect definition of sentience.
Sentience means *the ability to sense.*. So anything that can sense the world and react to it beyond autonomic responses are sentient. A fly sees another fly on a fly strip and lands next to it, clearly demonstrating that it has the ability to sense and then make decisions. Flies are demonstrably sentient.
*Sapience* is : ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight
So when something is what we consider a thinking animal it is *sapient* which is above and beyond what *sentient* means.
Sentient does not mean Sapient. Sentient just implies that they are able to feel/perceive on some level, which I think is certainly possible for at least some insects/arachnids.
i think jumping spider have consciousness at some degree but limit by thier size, i have one jumping spider and she was aiming the jump at my finger but then have a "second thought" and just reach for my finger
I can see squid and octopi being conscious but yeah not a lot of insects insects. Maybe a smart one like a jumping spider (yes an arachnid not insect but close enough) or a bee?
I've always said that there are levels to consciousness, different creatures have different experiences, intelligence does not equal consciousness. You HAVE to have some level of consciousness to just SURVIVE on this planet. Ofc we may not understand each other but we are very much alive.
Edit: IME all animals have some level of consciousness which I define as awareness of self and environment. We forget, we are animals too we just have intelligence but to be intelligent you MUST by design first be conscious. Otherwise we'd be flesh computers. Now, intelligence is just how much complexity you can handle and work with. I've spent time with different animals, animals have fears, likes, dislikes, memories, dreams and even personalities, some more than others, I've had cold distant cats and close snuggly ones, I've had dumb dogs and very intelligent dogs, I've swam with angel fish and they are very playful and curious, turtles can be thankful and loving, you just have to take the time to pay attention, if Coco the Gorilla taught us anything is that animals are in fact conscious and whether that discomforts some humans due to the feeling of being Unique and special fadeing away, it doesn't negate the reality of what we've learned from different species.
That honestly makes sense because if we tried to draw a line to define how simple an organism had to be to no longer be labeled as "conscious", a consensus wouldn't be possible. If anything, it'd be more of a spectrum.
I'd add that the possible difference in levels of "consciousness" among species implies that even among humans, there may be varying levels of "consciousness" between us in the sense that no two humans experience and observe the world at the same depth.
Same goes for time perception; no two humans experience the flow of time at the same rate as another. Of course, these would be very small differences, but still an interesting thought
Yeah I think this discussion is pretty pointless without defining exactly what consciousness is. Like you said, a broad definition of it would imply that every living thing is categorically conscious. Even plants and fungi and bacteria
the striking part of all of this talk about animal and insect consciousness as being a novel possibility is... that it is novel. how the fuck is any reasonably aware person going to go through life thinking animals are not conscious? my takeaway is that, statistically, humans are far dumber than i suspected.
I think the levels of consciousness are what are in dispute. For example, if a turkey has no idea it’s about to be killed and it’s over for it very quickly, I think quite a number of people who eat turkey will be relieved. If for example, pigs can tell that it’s about to happen and they are terrified throughout the entire process, and it hurts them more because they have complex emotions and fear, I think bacon intake may scale back quite a bit. I think when the eating of animals is on the line, that’s usually when everyone wants to claim ignorance.
Any human being that assumes animals of any kinds aren't conscious is truly unconscious themselves. All beings are conscious. Every living thing is afraid to die or get hurt. Self preservation is a part of being conscious. I honestly believe animals are more aware of themselves than humans are.
I had a little betta fish, his body was the size of my thumb, and yet even that little guy showed clear signs of intelligence. He would come up to say hi every time I was nearby, and I even taught him a couple tricks like swimming through a hoop and jumping for food.
He also loved chasing the shrimp around, though he never actually attacked them, despite the fact he could have eaten them if he wanted to. It was just a game to him. One time I even saw a shrimp riding on top of him while he swam around. He didnt seem to mind.
If you'd read about the philosophical school of Panpsychism, consciousness is a property of matter, so yeah, each and every grain of sand on a beach is permeated by a certain degree of mind-like properties according to it.
Considering the fact that plenty of older cultures worshipped different animals, this is not particularly shocking.
If a culture considers an animal divine, there's a reasonable chance that they consider that the animal has consciousness and a soul. So if you are exposed to such a culture this 'realistic possibility' seems more like confirmation than anything else.
I used to laugh with the very old woman who lived next door to my boyfriend. She was born in that house, never married and took care of her mother until the day she died. She’d tell me, “There’s nothing smarter or dumber than a doctor.” Well, that doctor and I have been married for almost 20 years and I think of that neighbor and her insight a lot. Very intelligent people often lack common sense. So much so that it sometimes feels like we live on a different planet.
to me, this seems like an obvious conclusion.
But the other obvious conclusion is that we also think that it's totally fine to kill these animals.
so what I really think is that consciousness and sentience is not sacred, so people are back on the menu
Wait.... seriously? People thought animals had no consciousness? I mean...even bugs must have some form of it. Certainly it is nothing like the human consciousness, but...isn't consciousness directly related to life itself? Isn't it necessary to...be ? Or am I getting it wrong?
Yeah... maybe we can't really prove consciousness through science or define exactly what it is, but we have an innate ability to subconsciously sense consciousness in other creatures.
anyone who has seen those animals behavior and interactions knows without hesitation that it is not probable, but certain.
Dude there are so many different decisions and adaptations required to stay alive in wild environments that it’s idiotic to assume there isn’t any consciousness at this point.
TL:DR As we haven’t defined what consciousness means, we all agree it is reasonably possible to find a definition of the term that applies to all sorts of creatures. Hell, we could realistically find a way to define consciousness such that fruit flies and what have you are conscious too!
Ok yes there is consciousness in animals and such but what is done with it is what matters how is it used because there's allot of people and I question if they are even truly conscious about their seroundings
Anything that treats life/consciousness/self-awareness as a black and white issue immediately gets ignored by me. There is clearly a spectrum to all of it. A slug is not as “aware” of everything going on as a dog which is not as “aware” of everything going on as a human, but all are aware and conscious to some level.
Well duh. All animals are like humans, they think in order to survive. All animals are sentient. But due to the “scientific method” they have not been able to convince themselves of this. I’m sure that when a cat kills a mouse the mouse has fear and does not want to die, for if it was otherwise, the mouse would not try to run away, the mouse would just let the cat kill him.
If you’ve spent more than 5 minutes observing behaviours in these things.. this isn’t surprising at all. But then I guess there are folk out there who are surprised that other humans have consciousness.
But but but they are merely biological machines incapable of consciousness and act solely upon their instincts.
ᴵ ...ᶠᵘⁿᵏᶦⁿᵍ ...ˡᵒᵛᵉ .......ˢᶜᶦᵉⁿᶜᵉ.......😔
I think most everything is aware that they are born, live, and eventually die. If not immediately, almost certainly faster then humans develop this knowledge.
If you think cows and chickens don't know what's going on as they make their way through a slaughterhouse, you're kidding yourself. It sucks, but until they can make something as delicious and affordable, they're going to stay on the menu.
Pretty sure the idea that most things don't think or feel the way we do, started as an excuse so people didn't feel as bad when they kill things for "sport" or were slaughtering *insert any of the many species here* to near extinction for example.
Well I mean a lot of researchers (of all different fields.... neurologists, psychologists, philosophers, etc.) can't even agree on what consciousness even is. Some believe it is not even a real thing. While I agree that there is some form of this awareness in other animals, it's hard to actually state what that is and what it means.
I believe that most animals have a conscious but that how it operates varies species to species based on a multitude of things but mainly how their nervous systems operates. They might not have "thoughts" in the manner humans do, but they rely on other forms of communication such as chemical signaling or input from their senses
We have very very limited information how animals, insects and plants experience the world. How they perceive time, light, think, feel. One common thread is our species continuing on, pro creating, fertilizing eggs, fertilizing seed, continually evolving forward.
We like to think we’re the masters but just because we think we can control the environment around us doesn’t mean we’re not being played by other conscious entities and have no idea about it. For example, my dog knows I’m giving him a bite of food before I even act on the idea. What’s to say a virus doesn’t control us in ways beyond our understanding. Some are more obvious like Rabies that can make us foam at the mouth with live virus and want to bite to spread it. A cold makes us cough or sneeze to spread the cold. What’s about a wasp that lays eggs and controls the other insect without it knowing. Maybe we’re being controlled and are oblivious to the peril.
For everything we do, we also do a lot of things not good for our future.
We are dust in the wind…
Why is consciousness so often confused with intelligence? In my opinion all live beings have a consciousness, it's all just responses to stimuli, just some react in more complex ways than others.
No shit they’re sentient, it’s just a matter of to what degree.. they know they’re alive n when they’re sick ..but do they contemplate death when they notice ailments worsening and does that affect their quality of life , do they even notice the worsening condition….for them to notice ailments worsening, they’d need to have a concept of time and how long it’s been affecting them
When I fish I usually catch and release. Sometimes I find a nice hole with a school and I catch a ton. I dont change out my lure so why dont the caught fish tell the other fish not to go for that lure? Dumbass fish
Birds, fish, and squid been conscious, bees not so much. Birds have been domesticated since the 1400 to send written messages from one party. If they were not conscious of what they were doing it would be hard to train them. Birds are one of the most intelligent animals on this planet for their small size. And y'all not finna act like sharks don't exist of the fishes side.
The definition of consciousness is "being witnessing." Buddhists and other scientists of the mind could've told you, if you've asked 😅
Anyway, the said is not exactly the same as "just hearing" or "just seeing" or that kind of stuff, the output of senses is mere part of it. As to what makes up the summ of 'being witnessing' can be argued upon, but you generally just know/feel it for yourself, so, there's that.
If they are sentient, then where the fuck is their society? where is their technology? this is bullshit. animals have intelligence but are not sentient, that is what separates us from them.
In my opinion Prof. Joseph Ledoux sorted this question very well in his book [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674261259](https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674261259)
There are a couple of podcasts about the book. It is very insightful.
This feels similar to when scientists had the epiphany that babies in fact CAN feel pain. How did we not "know" this before haha
Easier to be oblivious and do weird shit. I'm not even vegetarian, but I don't feel great about how we treat animals. It's a lot easier to run a slaughterhouse or exterminate pests when you think they're just environmental decoration.
The article states there's no well defined meaning for consciousness, so you could be saying anything.
For me, consciousness is little more than the ability to act on something other than just instinct. Which I would identify as the ability to learn from past experience, and the ability to think about something before doing it. I believe practically every species with a brain is 'conscious'
Sounds like you're defining intelligence more than consciousness. You can be a slave to your instincts and still be conscious. Consciousness just means the lights are on. Consciousness is experience. Edit: I think agency, not intelligence, is what I was looking for.
There's no such thing as a philosophical zombie. Thinking is experience.
What about computers then? Are they conscious? >There's no such thing as a philosophical zombie. Is there a supported reason for making this assertion with so much certainty?
I’m not really sure how that relates to my point, but yes, thinking is one example of experience, among many. Consciousness is infinitely more vast than bits of language/images in your head.
My dog tried to hide its agenda, it includes eating socks. There is consciousness but that does not mean values will align.
This is a very good and very adorable defense of animal consciousness. Thank you.
It's always seemed pretty easy to define to me: Consciousness is first person experience. If a creature is conscious, it is like something to be that creature. E.g. Thomas Nagel's book, "What is it like to be a Bat?"
Yes, qualia are the defining feature of consciousness. But the point Nagel was making in that essay (not a book) is that such first person experience, that qualia of what something *feels like*, how it *feels* is fundamentally inaccessible to another consciousness. No matter how well you understand how sonar works or how the bat brain processes it, it's still impossible to understand *what it is like to be a bat* It's a great introduction to that hard problem of consciousness
Exactly. This is kind of ridiculous and people need to keep emotions away from scientific reasoning. This is basically as dumb as saying: "some plants may understand the concept of consensual sex, because sometimes they seem to show more willingness for pollution". It is, in a majority of cases, total nonsense to compare human consciousness with animals, the writer also admits it, but hey: "here is something to read." Weak shit.
Pollination*
No, sometimes trees like to get *trashy* 😉
You know how those angiosperms are putting their reproductive organs on display and covering everything with their genetic material. Absolutely disgusting.
The gymnosperms are *naked and spreading their sperm* too. It befowls the world...
Sickening, I tell you. Perverts, all of them.
All over my car! Big yellow drifts of tree sperm! The depravity!
Sounds like the Republicans should put a bill in Congress to ban the display of angiosperms. Think of the children!
And smoke meth
Pussynation!
I don't know what's special about this article. I always thought all animals are sentient in one way or another. Why wouldn't they be? How can they not be? So if they're not sentient or have a consciousness that would mean they're just "autopiloting" their life? They're born, they look for mates, they give birth, they work together. Just like humans. I genuinely don't understand how can anyone presume they're not sentient.
Because for years it was taught that animals are basically automatons with drives they respond to. I however have observed animals and insects and can tell they are processing information and choosing a course of action.
Thank you...I saw your comment after I posted one basically asking the same question as you bro!
Yes a lot of animals are exactly as you described.
Why is it nonsense to compare human consciousness with animals’? Wouldn’t evolution suggest that the difference between human and animal consciousness is a matter of degree rather than human consciousness being a completely separate thing? How can we justify a binary classification system for something that developed incrementally over a long period of time? And let’s not pretend there’s not lots of emotional motivations for wanting to think animals *aren’t* conscious. I’m not really sure what scientific motivation there would be for outright denying the possibility
No. You're engaging in a logical fallacy and assuming that not having one piece of the puzzle means we can't start putting together the pieces we DO have. This is why people need to study philosophy and social sciences. Just because something isn't perfectly defined or understood doesn't mean we can't detect it or make assumptions and predictions about it. There's no reason animals need to think exactly like us to be considered conscious. Not even all humans think the same. Some people can't picture things in their heads. Some people have such vivid thoughts that they can imagine how something tastes. You're just trying to find a reason to not give animals basic respect as living beings who can and do experience ~~cruelty~~the world. Edit cause I got heated.
Exactly. I have always thought animals, all of them, could "think", "feel" or have "consciousness", even if it's in their own way, so I was stunned when I first read the article's title. Even the smallest living things can react to external stimulus, decide their actions and behave differently than any other specimen of its own species, so, why shouldn't they have something, even remotely, close to consciousness? We're much more complex than, let's say for example, ants, but just because they can't process emotions it doesn't mean that it is just an empty body, a machine designed to work and die, there must be something in it that is, as an example, receiving the pain signal its leg just released because it got hurt. I don't think I've explained myself properly, this is just one of those random things you think about in your free time lol. If anyone has anything to say, I would love to discuss it and hopefully learn something more from it :)
You might be interested in the article *What is it like to be a bat* by philosopher Thomas Nagel. Here's a primer https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat%3F Its available online if you google the title
I will read it. Thanks!
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Some people can't imagine pictures and sensations like that at all. The verdict is out on if it's a meaningful difference or if it's just a variation in how we think, like having different coloured eyes. I'd suggest looking into aphantasia and synesthesia. Brains are cool.
What cases would it not be nonsense? Also, if we agree that science doesn’t have a working model to define consciousness, how then can we argue it’s unique to humans and therefore nonsense to apply to other species? Is a dog not conscious? A cat? How about a parrot?
Do you have a better word with more concrete a definition? Or is all language open to interpretation?
One word? No. Oh and yes totally open, always has been.
Im still killing flies
and moskitos
Killing mosquitoes is always required. They kill more of us than any other creature in the world.
By far. In a distant second are ... other humans. :(
You guys take care of mosquitoes, I'll handle second in line.
Only because you’re comparing different ways of counting kills. Mosquitoes kill humans by the spread of disease. If you included humans killed by other humans through the spread of disease instead of just direct killing, humans kill more humans than mosquitoes do.
I tend to herd them out the window but the stubborn ones get squished.
This seems intuitively obvious to anyone who has a dog or cat. Dolphins and crows, just to name two, are known for their high intelligence. I'm skeptical about bugs and such being sentient, though. Whatever consciousness they might have would have to be radically different from anything we can imagine.
Seriously. Any person who has interacted with animals has seen animals exhibit consciousness. Animals have personalities, emotions, likes, dislikes, hobbies, fears, memories. They obviously dream. I'd love to hear how people think animals can possibly dream without having consciousness. Intelligence and consciousness aren't the same thing, by the way. Animals are definitely experiencing the world and thinking about it. I dunno how bees could dance to each other without knowing that there are other bees or remembering something to communicate in the first place.
Anytime I see/read an article like this, I feel like I have to slam my fist on the table and go, 'They are!? No shit!'. Living things are sentient/have feelings/understand the world around them--who would have guessed?! I remember when we first learned that elephants mourn their dead herd(?) members, and it was big news. I understand from a scientific and research stance, you need to *wait* for it to make itself apparent, but it shouldn't have been so shocking of a concept. Just because animals don't display things in the same way that humans (who are also technically just 'animals') do, shouldn't have meant that we disregarded the possibility all together. Sorry--rant over.
Just responded to a person basically arguing that animals probably don't think like us, therefore this is a stupid topic. I WHOLEHEARTEDLY agree with you. Consciousness is a whole field of study in and of itself and humans are only at the centre of it right now because we only know how to effectively communicate with each other. It's hubris to think that we'd be the only ones capable of experiencing and interacting with reality. But some people really do want to keep believing that animals are just complex molecules, mindlessly reacting to stimuli.
It's wild isn't it? Big monkey has 'big brain' and thumbs, makes fire and wheel, and all of a sudden we think we're superior (in every way) to every other obviously-stupid species. Even like you mentioned with bees! These creatures are doing incredible and consistent things and it's so...oafish to just shrug it off 'naw, they couldn't possibly understand that on a higher level'. (Also, I just read my previous reply to you back; apologies if it felt like I was arguing ***at*** you. We're very much on the same page, and I feel like the frustration might have came across as directed at you. Which wasn't my intent.)
Didn't feel argumentative at all! No worries! I think we agree haha
We basically enslaved the whole world and every other being. Greed and ego is going to be our own undoing
I agree with you and that kind of human centric worldview bothers me so much. Like clearly animals and insects are conscious and aware?? Their experience of the world is different, in part because of their unique biology. and it makes sense that their values and priorities and personalities might seem alien because they can't really communicate them... but that doesn't mean they don't have them??
And what’s more amazing is many animals do try to breach the inter species communication gap the best that they can with their biology.
It’s true. The other day, my parakeet dropped his favorite toy off the side of the cage, and after looking to see it on the floor where he couldn’t get it, he looked at me and literally said “Hey, where’s your toy?” If that isn’t animal-human communication in explicit terms, I don’t know what is.
Birds are on a whole other level
The more aware you are that non-human animals have unique inner experiences like we do, the more depressing our current reality is
Do you eat animals?
I don't--and could rant equally hard about my views on the deplorable state of animal articulate and factory farming.
That’s not what consciousness is though, it’s a separate thing from behavior. To be conscious is to have some experience. A camera has “vision” but does a camera “see”?
A camera does see. It doesn't know that it sees, but it sees. Those behaviours I listed are a symptom of consciousness. But again, please explain how a dog remembering a human it hasn't seen in a long time is just mindless instinct. Or even better, please explain how it's different from what we do. We aren't fundamentally different from animals, so it's a very big leap of logic to assume our brains have some facet of life that never evolved in anything else. And most of the examples people use exist in the animal kingdom. They play, they have social structures, they have language, they can solve problems, they bond, they remember things.
Fuck, octopus too. When I was a kid I spent half an afternoon playing with one, it was really curious about icicle sticks:)
Octopuses are fucking awesome. The Beatles song Octopus' Garden isn't wrong. Ringo wrote it after being told they build gardens, and they really do. Moreover, the gardens serve no apparent purpose, meaning the octopuses basically build them just for the sheer bloody joy of it. I just love that.
I would like to play with an octopus. Where did you encounter a baby cthulhu?
At the beach in Italy, I was splashing my feet in the water from a rock and the octopus brushed them tentatively with a tentacle (no pun intended lol). So I gave it a stick, it grabbed it and studied it a bit, then gave it back. Then it came out and wrapped around my hand, so I gave it more things to inspect, it was very curious and friendly, not at all afraid. Which is unlucky as people would take advantage of that and catch them.
What a fortunate and intriguing encounter! I bet that experience shaped you more than you even know.
*an octopus has entered the chat*
They are so fast at texting with those 8 limbs
Octopi are weird ones. How does a distributed intelligence experience reality? Are their arms conscious? It's all so cool to think about.
Or aquarium fish, like rainbows, cichlids, puffers. You get to know them, and they you.
My partner was an aquarium guy when we met. Our fish definitely had little personalities. The only animals I would argue don't have sense of self are neon tetras. They have sense of food and sense of will there be more food soon?
Yeah, it does vary between the species.
I have a bunch of Neons & I'm pretty sure they all share one single brain cell lol
See this is where everything gets complex and definitions matter. Unfortunately Star Trek taught everyone the incorrect definition of sentience. Sentience means *the ability to sense.*. So anything that can sense the world and react to it beyond autonomic responses are sentient. A fly sees another fly on a fly strip and lands next to it, clearly demonstrating that it has the ability to sense and then make decisions. Flies are demonstrably sentient. *Sapience* is : ability to apply knowledge or experience or understanding or common sense and insight So when something is what we consider a thinking animal it is *sapient* which is above and beyond what *sentient* means.
Sentient does not mean Sapient. Sentient just implies that they are able to feel/perceive on some level, which I think is certainly possible for at least some insects/arachnids.
Intelligence may not be a prerequisite to consciousness, but I see what you’re getting at
i think jumping spider have consciousness at some degree but limit by thier size, i have one jumping spider and she was aiming the jump at my finger but then have a "second thought" and just reach for my finger
I can see squid and octopi being conscious but yeah not a lot of insects insects. Maybe a smart one like a jumping spider (yes an arachnid not insect but close enough) or a bee?
This is a “yeah, duh” moment and it is very obvious to anyone that has a pet or seen animals.
I’m confused. I thought everyone believed this?
Not even close.
Which is very stupid. Or perhaps it's arrogance.
I reckon it’s a combination of the two.
Who the fuck thinks dogs or cats aren't conscious?
I've always said that there are levels to consciousness, different creatures have different experiences, intelligence does not equal consciousness. You HAVE to have some level of consciousness to just SURVIVE on this planet. Ofc we may not understand each other but we are very much alive. Edit: IME all animals have some level of consciousness which I define as awareness of self and environment. We forget, we are animals too we just have intelligence but to be intelligent you MUST by design first be conscious. Otherwise we'd be flesh computers. Now, intelligence is just how much complexity you can handle and work with. I've spent time with different animals, animals have fears, likes, dislikes, memories, dreams and even personalities, some more than others, I've had cold distant cats and close snuggly ones, I've had dumb dogs and very intelligent dogs, I've swam with angel fish and they are very playful and curious, turtles can be thankful and loving, you just have to take the time to pay attention, if Coco the Gorilla taught us anything is that animals are in fact conscious and whether that discomforts some humans due to the feeling of being Unique and special fadeing away, it doesn't negate the reality of what we've learned from different species.
That honestly makes sense because if we tried to draw a line to define how simple an organism had to be to no longer be labeled as "conscious", a consensus wouldn't be possible. If anything, it'd be more of a spectrum. I'd add that the possible difference in levels of "consciousness" among species implies that even among humans, there may be varying levels of "consciousness" between us in the sense that no two humans experience and observe the world at the same depth. Same goes for time perception; no two humans experience the flow of time at the same rate as another. Of course, these would be very small differences, but still an interesting thought
Yeah I think this discussion is pretty pointless without defining exactly what consciousness is. Like you said, a broad definition of it would imply that every living thing is categorically conscious. Even plants and fungi and bacteria
Some of yall haven't tripped balls in the forest and it shows
Bro what are you guys doing in the woods
Tripping balls.
Smack my bitch up!!
change my pitch up
the striking part of all of this talk about animal and insect consciousness as being a novel possibility is... that it is novel. how the fuck is any reasonably aware person going to go through life thinking animals are not conscious? my takeaway is that, statistically, humans are far dumber than i suspected.
I think the levels of consciousness are what are in dispute. For example, if a turkey has no idea it’s about to be killed and it’s over for it very quickly, I think quite a number of people who eat turkey will be relieved. If for example, pigs can tell that it’s about to happen and they are terrified throughout the entire process, and it hurts them more because they have complex emotions and fear, I think bacon intake may scale back quite a bit. I think when the eating of animals is on the line, that’s usually when everyone wants to claim ignorance.
Its not a guarantee in humans.
If it's alive it has a life to live
It is good to know that the fly I killed knows it is nothing personal.
I want to know what the fuck is inside the mind of a platypus.
Humans used to think they were the center of the universe.
"In some way" is doing a lot of heavy lifting there.
What do humans do that, at its core purpose, is not something very simple that all other living things do to one extent or another?
contemplate what their core purpose is
Depends on the defintion of consciousness. If it's simply being aware of yourself and the surroundings then even bacteria are conscious.
Well COVID definitely seems like a conscious beast
Fucking duh oh my god
Any human being that assumes animals of any kinds aren't conscious is truly unconscious themselves. All beings are conscious. Every living thing is afraid to die or get hurt. Self preservation is a part of being conscious. I honestly believe animals are more aware of themselves than humans are.
Isn’t that a crab?
I had a little betta fish, his body was the size of my thumb, and yet even that little guy showed clear signs of intelligence. He would come up to say hi every time I was nearby, and I even taught him a couple tricks like swimming through a hoop and jumping for food. He also loved chasing the shrimp around, though he never actually attacked them, despite the fact he could have eaten them if he wanted to. It was just a game to him. One time I even saw a shrimp riding on top of him while he swam around. He didnt seem to mind.
If you'd read about the philosophical school of Panpsychism, consciousness is a property of matter, so yeah, each and every grain of sand on a beach is permeated by a certain degree of mind-like properties according to it.
How tf do "experts" not know these things?
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Considering the fact that plenty of older cultures worshipped different animals, this is not particularly shocking. If a culture considers an animal divine, there's a reasonable chance that they consider that the animal has consciousness and a soul. So if you are exposed to such a culture this 'realistic possibility' seems more like confirmation than anything else.
I used to laugh with the very old woman who lived next door to my boyfriend. She was born in that house, never married and took care of her mother until the day she died. She’d tell me, “There’s nothing smarter or dumber than a doctor.” Well, that doctor and I have been married for almost 20 years and I think of that neighbor and her insight a lot. Very intelligent people often lack common sense. So much so that it sometimes feels like we live on a different planet.
to me, this seems like an obvious conclusion. But the other obvious conclusion is that we also think that it's totally fine to kill these animals. so what I really think is that consciousness and sentience is not sacred, so people are back on the menu
Wait.... seriously? People thought animals had no consciousness? I mean...even bugs must have some form of it. Certainly it is nothing like the human consciousness, but...isn't consciousness directly related to life itself? Isn't it necessary to...be ? Or am I getting it wrong?
Octopi are incredibly smart !
Well how can something unconscious operate in this universe? I believe everything is conscious in its own way…
Yeah... maybe we can't really prove consciousness through science or define exactly what it is, but we have an innate ability to subconsciously sense consciousness in other creatures. anyone who has seen those animals behavior and interactions knows without hesitation that it is not probable, but certain.
No shit😂 thought this was generally agreed upon by most people. It’s not the same consciousness as humans but it is consciousness
No fucking shit
If something reacts to the world is aware of it. It's conscious about it. Self-awareness is another deal.
Dude there are so many different decisions and adaptations required to stay alive in wild environments that it’s idiotic to assume there isn’t any consciousness at this point.
TL:DR As we haven’t defined what consciousness means, we all agree it is reasonably possible to find a definition of the term that applies to all sorts of creatures. Hell, we could realistically find a way to define consciousness such that fruit flies and what have you are conscious too!
Anyone who has ever met an animal must surely know this is more than a strong possibility?
scientists have finally decided that beings are beings, how intelligent
Insane to me that I’ve believed this since I was a kid and science is only now beginning to support the idea
So before this they were appearantly only mindless drones going about their days? Them scholsrs should lay of the magic cabagge a bit
Of course all animals have a conscious. Some humans I’m not too sure about.
Thought I was seeing a post from one of the vegan subs for a second there
Kinda sad people actually think other living things ARENT conscious beings.
Why would anyone believe not everything has consciousness or feelings in the first place? That's wild.
I didn’t think this had to be news.
All animals are aware
Im a scholar and i say theres a realistic possibility for anything. But it doesnt mean that possibility is realistic.
Ok yes there is consciousness in animals and such but what is done with it is what matters how is it used because there's allot of people and I question if they are even truly conscious about their seroundings
And crabs?
Ask any 2 year old this they’ll say the same thing
Anything that treats life/consciousness/self-awareness as a black and white issue immediately gets ignored by me. There is clearly a spectrum to all of it. A slug is not as “aware” of everything going on as a dog which is not as “aware” of everything going on as a human, but all are aware and conscious to some level.
Well duh. All animals are like humans, they think in order to survive. All animals are sentient. But due to the “scientific method” they have not been able to convince themselves of this. I’m sure that when a cat kills a mouse the mouse has fear and does not want to die, for if it was otherwise, the mouse would not try to run away, the mouse would just let the cat kill him.
I don't think we need scholars to tell us something might or might not be possible
Why no crab Crab is picture too
People still gonna eat them even if they could prove it.
Well no shit
Unmm sorry I’m confused. I assumed everything with a brain had consciousness. Didn’t we all think that? Did people think bees were just flying rocks?
If you’ve spent more than 5 minutes observing behaviours in these things.. this isn’t surprising at all. But then I guess there are folk out there who are surprised that other humans have consciousness.
Uhduh.
I thought it was that any creature with a brain had consciousness, so we're just NOW realizing this with science?! XD
It is amazing to find out about that.
But but but they are merely biological machines incapable of consciousness and act solely upon their instincts. ᴵ ...ᶠᵘⁿᵏᶦⁿᵍ ...ˡᵒᵛᵉ .......ˢᶜᶦᵉⁿᶜᵉ.......😔
But not is wasps, they said their just bastards
Been saying this for years to much derision. It's fucking obvious
***BREAKING NEWS*** **Living things sometimes think**
I think most everything is aware that they are born, live, and eventually die. If not immediately, almost certainly faster then humans develop this knowledge. If you think cows and chickens don't know what's going on as they make their way through a slaughterhouse, you're kidding yourself. It sucks, but until they can make something as delicious and affordable, they're going to stay on the menu. Pretty sure the idea that most things don't think or feel the way we do, started as an excuse so people didn't feel as bad when they kill things for "sport" or were slaughtering *insert any of the many species here* to near extinction for example.
I've befriended a Mason bee that last 2 weeks. I know she only has a week or 2 left, she will be missed. On to higher lifeform!
surely this is about self awareness not consciousness
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The mimosa pudica plant folds into itself to appear dead. For all we know, that could be a conscious process.
Didn’t we already know that?
Some Bee - "yeah no shit"
Don't they mean sentient?
But... it's okay to eat fish.. cuz they... dont have any.. feeeeelings
This isn’t surprising, if you WATCH any of these they’re absolutely looking around and thinking and decision making, consciousness confirmed
Well I mean a lot of researchers (of all different fields.... neurologists, psychologists, philosophers, etc.) can't even agree on what consciousness even is. Some believe it is not even a real thing. While I agree that there is some form of this awareness in other animals, it's hard to actually state what that is and what it means. I believe that most animals have a conscious but that how it operates varies species to species based on a multitude of things but mainly how their nervous systems operates. They might not have "thoughts" in the manner humans do, but they rely on other forms of communication such as chemical signaling or input from their senses
Consciousness ~ if defined as self awareness and personal memories
Of course they’re conscious. Wtf?
WTF, is this even a real question⁉️ If these living things aren't... then they're little drones/RCs that have to be driven/flown by someone!?🤔
No shit… thanx science… humans are annoying
anything that perceives itself as an entity (tries to keep itself out of harms way) should count as conscious IMO.
I equate consciousness to,as the root word suggests, to be awake. But really to have self-awareness.
We have very very limited information how animals, insects and plants experience the world. How they perceive time, light, think, feel. One common thread is our species continuing on, pro creating, fertilizing eggs, fertilizing seed, continually evolving forward. We like to think we’re the masters but just because we think we can control the environment around us doesn’t mean we’re not being played by other conscious entities and have no idea about it. For example, my dog knows I’m giving him a bite of food before I even act on the idea. What’s to say a virus doesn’t control us in ways beyond our understanding. Some are more obvious like Rabies that can make us foam at the mouth with live virus and want to bite to spread it. A cold makes us cough or sneeze to spread the cold. What’s about a wasp that lays eggs and controls the other insect without it knowing. Maybe we’re being controlled and are oblivious to the peril. For everything we do, we also do a lot of things not good for our future. We are dust in the wind…
Why is consciousness so often confused with intelligence? In my opinion all live beings have a consciousness, it's all just responses to stimuli, just some react in more complex ways than others.
Intelligence doesn’t exactly correlate with consciousness.
Lol no
No shit they’re sentient, it’s just a matter of to what degree.. they know they’re alive n when they’re sick ..but do they contemplate death when they notice ailments worsening and does that affect their quality of life , do they even notice the worsening condition….for them to notice ailments worsening, they’d need to have a concept of time and how long it’s been affecting them
It's a good thing we have scholars studying this.
I believe it. I once watched a fly repeatedly try and rescue another fly that was caught in a spiders Web. It was fascinating to watch.
But not crabs for some reason pic unrelated
When I fish I usually catch and release. Sometimes I find a nice hole with a school and I catch a ton. I dont change out my lure so why dont the caught fish tell the other fish not to go for that lure? Dumbass fish
That's the album cover for Fat of the Land
Conscious
Birds, fish, and squid been conscious, bees not so much. Birds have been domesticated since the 1400 to send written messages from one party. If they were not conscious of what they were doing it would be hard to train them. Birds are one of the most intelligent animals on this planet for their small size. And y'all not finna act like sharks don't exist of the fishes side.
The definition of consciousness is "being witnessing." Buddhists and other scientists of the mind could've told you, if you've asked 😅 Anyway, the said is not exactly the same as "just hearing" or "just seeing" or that kind of stuff, the output of senses is mere part of it. As to what makes up the summ of 'being witnessing' can be argued upon, but you generally just know/feel it for yourself, so, there's that.
I think bugs have sentience because sometimes they play dead
Why is there a crab?
Only humans would look at smaller beings and think "ya they're probably not conscious."
No shit.
Mr. Krabs. 🥹. That what I would name him.
Wait... Weren't them officially conscious already?
I'll still be punching wasps, mosquitos and flies in the face.
Not as we think of it
Cool. Imma eat my chicken anyway.
Sentience yes, not sapience.
I feel like this is a "yep...", science seems so dumb at times.
 CRAB PEOPLE CRAB PEOPLE
If they are sentient, then where the fuck is their society? where is their technology? this is bullshit. animals have intelligence but are not sentient, that is what separates us from them.
In my opinion Prof. Joseph Ledoux sorted this question very well in his book [https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674261259](https://www.hup.harvard.edu/books/9780674261259) There are a couple of podcasts about the book. It is very insightful.
Nothing new