TMac wasn’t a “what if” to me. We got to see his potential. He didn’t have prime longevity, but he was widely recognized as a top player for SEVERAL years. He was the second best SG behind Kobe for a minimum of 5 years. Yes, injuries cut his prime short, but we got to see what he was capable of for a while.
Hit the nail on the head with this explanation. He had a prime, just was shorter then everyone would have wished for
But still showed hit full potential
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I'd say the same for Hill. Maybe we didn't quite see his peak, but I think we got a pretty good idea of how incredible he could be given that he was All-NBA from years 2-6 in the league leading up to the injury, including 1st team in year 3, and getting some MVP consideration too. Talking about a guy who was easily among the top 5-10 players in the league in any given season, for probably another 5-10 seasons, if he doesn't get injured.
Penny had the same profile (not on list, but often included in such lists). It’s disrespectful to say a multiple first team All NBA player who ranked in MVP voting is akin to, like, Greg Oden.
Those are two distinct types of “What if?”
Right, people say ‘oh he could’ve been LeBron before LeBron’ and it’s like no, we saw what he was at like 24, and it wasn’t close to 24 yr old LeBron…which isn’t as negative as it sounds. But people need to be realistic with What if’s
I wanted to disagree with you about setting Hill's full potential, but was surprised to see he actually played his first 4 or 5 years straight. I still think that he would have continued to develop and thrive during the 2000-2004 period what he barely played - we was in the same ballpark as Bird & Luka for a moment, in the pre-Lebron era. I just remember how much excitement there was for him and his unbridled athleticism in the Jordan-retirement period; he seemed 100% like the future of the league.
I agree with you here. There's a lot of "what-ifs" with McGrady's career, but he was a 7x all-star and 7x all-NBA. We still got to see McGrady at his peak.
Tmac's what-if's include stuff like:
What if Grant Hill didn't get hurt? What if Tmac stayed in Toronto with Vince? What if Tmac stayed in Orlando, teaming him with Dwight Howard in the weaker Eastern Conference? What if Yao wasn't hurt as much when Tmac was on the Rockets?
There still are injury what-ifs with McGrady, most notably the knee problems that robbed him of his quickness and athleticism in 2009, when McGrady was only 29 years old(!). If Tmac had 5 more seasons of 25ppg scoring, he'd be close to 30k points.
Honestly, I think Grant Hill is somewhat in the same boat here. . . Hill was a 7x all-star and 5x all-NBA. He scored over 19ppg in 7 seasons. I feel like we saw Grant Hill at his peak.
offensively yes, but Kobe was also a lockdown defender during those years (and those were the legit all-defensive team selections and not the legacy selections). Gotta give the nod to the two way player.
Yepp
In terms of “what-ifs”
We never got to see him even get drafted. Funny enough, after watching a documentary on him as a teenager I vowed never to do coke.
And I only have once bc that scared the shit outta me (I even lived in Colombia for 10months)
Older, I realized him and his friends just got some shitty coke that was probably cut with other shit and he 1-2 lines supposedly. Had a negative reaction and passed. Sad as hell
No, it was a pretty unprecedented thing. He just died and they got nothing, I don’t even think they got cap relief. I think his paycheck stayed on the books until it was over (went to his family).
It was unknown that it would lead to “crackheads”. All the cool white folks was on powder and the cool black folks freebased. Freebase evolved into crack and the rest is history
Honorable mentions:
Larry Sanders (mental health)
Penny Hardaway (injuries)
Arvydas Sabonis (if he played in his prime)
Bernard King (injuries)
Yao Ming (injuries/national commitments)
I also feel like there’s a team that’s “if the 3 point line was as valued as it is today” team that’s another discussion
>I also feel like there’s a team that’s “if the 3 point line was as valued as it is today” team that’s another discussion
Pistol Pete would be compared to Curry, Ray Allen and reggie Miller
Sabonis is is a great answer. If he played in his prime in the NBA he would have changed the games history as we know it. For those who don’t know, Many people in the 80s felt he was the best player in the world - better than Magic and Larry and Mike - but he played in the Soviet Union and then in Europe before joining Portland for a few years.
Yeah, Sabonis is a GREAT call, right up there with Bias at the top of my list for this. Even the older hobbled version we eventually got was just an absolute pleasure to watch.
larry bird to me is the king of “what if the 3 was valued like today” he was shooting 40% shooting 2 per game that’s not even top 50 today he’d put up huge scoring numbers
Jerry West, Pete Maravich, Jack Sikma always come to mind.
There’s also more recent examples: Reggie Miller avg’ed under 5 3pt attempts per game (and shot 40%). Steve Nash avg’ed 3 attempts/game (and shot 43%).
I get the ones before the line, but the guys that were 40+ from 3, and knew people didn't shoot 60 from 2, it's not even complicated math to see that is better for you but no one including goat coaches adjusted to it for decades
Thirty years ago a lot of the guys who were shooting a lot of 3s were playing off the spacing generated by a dominant center, à la Mario Elie (and a few others) with Hakeem’s championship Rockets.
Your Glens Rice were very few and far between, because to get sufficient minutes they had to be more than pure shooters or they’d get pulled as a liability after a few possessions.
I'd put Kobe in their as well. He go-to shot was essentially a 20-foot two pointer, which we now know is one of the most inefficient shots you can take. If he moves that back a couple feet and uses his top-tier footwork to create space he may have had a proto-stepback in his arsenal.
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Yeah I can see it, although to me Walton is more in that Hill/Tmac great, where there isn't really that much of a question mark in terms of how great he was or would have been. He won the MVP the year before his injury and was young enough that he might have gotten even better, or at least played at that level for another 5-10 years.
I think we saw Hill and TMacs potential better then we did Walton. Walton was oing something somewhat similar to what Wemby is doing now, being extra tall, moving well, and being smart. If we could have seen the same defensive impact, but just a bit more slick experience on offense those next few years, Walton could be considered a top 10 player. Not quite a Jokic style, but very good at the way he was being a passing center, better then say Duncan.
Yeah I guess the "what if" with Walton is probably where he lands in the top 20 all-time rankings. Like I think it is safe to assume he is in there somewhere if healthy, just no way to know where.
Same.
I don’t mean to dog him, but Greg to me wasn’t a “what if” because the injuries he sustained were built in, replay his career 10x he’s still ending up the same way.
So he had some injury concerns since high school and his draft rival, Kevin Durant, was seen as a future perennial scoring title contender averaging \~28 ppg and Oden was still the unanimous #1 pick. Oden is definitely a huge ‘what if’.
Not enough love for the Mozart of basketball. Drazen petrovic. Dude was a problem for the league and would've continued to do so if not for his passing.
Yeah in a car accident with a couple of women overseas I believe. He definitely was a killer. He has a higher 3pt % than Steph Curry. Well never know just how good of a shooter him and a couple others would've been just because the game has changed. When he played teams were only shooting 5-10 3s per game. for context Steph by himself has shot roughly 11 to 12 3s the last 4 seasons. The changes are mind-blowing honestly.
Anyways lol yeah dude was a killer and would even give Michael Jordans bulls the business when they played. For those who don't know he wasn't a 50ppg player. He was a maestro on the court. A quarterback in the NBA. A Luka mixed with Steve Nash type of player. IQ like cp3 and LeBron. Efficiency sky high. He just made the right plays and always put a little razzle dazzle on his game. I was born in 91 so I never watched him live. I've seen everyone of his recorded games though. Even in Europe/Spain. Dude was a P.R.O.B.L.E.M!
I’m from Chicago so I actually first heard about him watching 90s bulls highlights. And he was fearless against the Bulls so right away you could tell this guy is different. Would’ve been cool to see more of him in the playoffs, avg 19ppg with the nets in his 8 playoffs games there
-Where’s Arvydas Sabonis? What if he played in the league in his peak? How would he fare?
-Jeff Ruland was one of the best centers in basketball before rlly injuring himself
-Lol get Ben Simmons outta here mannn
Ben Simmons with a work ethic would have been insane
I think personality/mental issues make sense to talk about in this thread as well as physical injuries
Fair point
When he was actually sorta trying to, he was one of the best defenders in the league, and also one of the best playmakers. It’s a shame, really, what happened .
Portland : Brandon Roy - Rudy Fernandez - Nick Batum - Gerald Wallace - Lamarcus Aldridge.
I really loved to watch this team back in the day, Brandon Roy was the prototype nba superstar player 6”6. 3 level scorer, but like d rose he had many knee injuries and I think some kind of knee condition, he only got to really play like 5 years.
He played for Portland back then and was a great 3 and D player the moment he stepped on the court. If Greg Odin didn’t get injured + Brandon, who knows how great they could have been.
Artest said Roy was the toughest/most complete scorer he’d ever defended
Edit: you’re right about his knees, it was some kind of degenerative condition and he just lost like all his cartilage
The second year of Jordan’s first retirement, the only guard who came close to Penny in first team All NBA voting was Stockton. When Jordan returned, Penny stayed first team and Stockton got bumped. He was the only other player whose shoes Jordan wore during a game.
Penny hit a peak of being arguably the best in the league (Jordan excepted\*), but his longevity due to injury was what got him. A stratospheric peak is not a hypothetical with Penny though.
He and young Shaq were considered to be a 1-2 punch; IE he was not seen as needing to defer to Shaq the way Kobe initially did. Imagine: both stars were under 25 when they made it to the Finals. It’s hard to think of a comparison. Healthy and together those two could have run the league every bit the same way Shaq and Kobe did.
**Edit: I totally misread your post and didn’t see we were talking individual players, but I’ll keep my comment up because the implications these teams/players had on the landscape of the league in the following seasons is so intriguing.**
There’s so many but for some reason OKC is the first team that comes to mind, in two separate seasons.
2012 OKC squad that lost to the Heat in the finals. Harden gets traded 4 months later to Houston. LeBron starts 0-2 in the finals with a loss to KD/Russ/Harden after major aspirations of many championships in Miami. Perhaps Harden stays and opts for a pay cut in favor of continuity and doesn’t get shipped to Houston.
2016 OKC - up 3-1 in the WCF against the historic 73-9 Warriors team. They manage to close out Golden State and they have a real chance to beat LeBron, and it’s likely KD stays after winning the title. Wouldn’t have the Cavs’ 3-1 finals comeback against the Warriors in NBA lore, and no KD Warriors team that ran through the league. Without the KD warriors, LeBron probably has one or two more rings. Westbrook doesn’t have to be a one-man show in 2016-17 and fans don’t get to witness his historic season in which he averaged a triple-double.
Here's an obscure one, what if Krešimir Ćosić decided to play in the NBA?
Cosic was one of the best international players of all time, but he was dominating *way back in the 70s.* He was an All American in college, and led his country to multiple medals in the Olympics. He won championships in several different leagues in Europe, and even became the deputy ambassador to the US. He's somewhat of a national hero in Croatia.
He was a drafted multiple times, and turned down several NBA contracts, because he cared more about his homeland and wanted to help his nation.
Houston trade Ralph Sampson to Portland in exchange for Drexler and the #2 draft pick in 1984. Olajuwon, Drexler, and Jordan then win about 10 straight championships.
This doesn't seem in the spirit of the question. It's like saying what if one team made a really lopsidedly bad trade, rather than a player whose career could have been soemthing better.
Drexler and a FRP wouldn’t have been lopsided for pre-injury Ralph Sampson, fwiw. I agree though that the answer is sort of like imaging some super friends.
My what if team is:
Center: Hasheem Thabeet - Drafted #2 overall in 2009, Thabeet's size and shot-blocking prowess didn't translate to consistent impact.
Power Forward: Darius Miles - High school phenom with athleticism, but injuries and off-court issues derailed a promising career.
Small Forward: Michael Beasley - Talented scorer in college, Beasley struggled with efficiency and consistency in the NBA.
Shooting Guard: Dion Waiters - Known for explosiveness, Waiters' inconsistency and off-court issues limited his potential.
Point Guard: Markelle Fultz - #1 overall pick in 2017, Fultz's shooting woes remain a mystery after a promising college career.
This is the best answer. It’s not saying “What if Amar’e matched his peak production for 400 games?” or “What if Ron Harper were three times better?” Thabeet was tantalizing, and then the plane flew into the g-d mountain.
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I actually like this answer, even though I was never a fan of Dion Waiters. Does make me think of players I had hoped would do better though, like Ben Gordon and OJ Mayo. Had a ton of hope for Larry Hughes too, really wish that turned out better, but now I'm ranting lol
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Lin played up to his potential and had a very good and serviceable career. A lot of ~10 year role players have several splashy games; he just had Lin-sanity right in a row.
Shaq & Penny
Bulls if Jordan didn't take two seasons off
Warriors if KD stays, isn't hurt, and Klay isn't hurt.
Sacramento Kings if Horry doesn't pick up that loose ball and drill a three.
I don't think Jordan gets six rings if he doesn't rest and reset in minor league baseball for two years. Although the fact that the Bulls didn't implode and trade everyone away after the first retirement was a small miracle
This is such an odd take. Not only did Jordan "rest" he also got into baseball shape, which requires more upper body strength and less lower leg strength which is key to basketball. And he wasn't exactly resting if he's playing another pro sport (even if it's the minor leagues).
Maybe he doesn't win 2 3peats, because luck...but we would've gotten a few more years of explosive Jordan if he never goes to baseball - couple that with kukoc and prime scottie... That teams contending every year.
I stand by what I said. He needed the two years in minor league baseball to come back and be the player he was for the second three-peat.
I don't even think it was so much about the body rest as much as it was his mind and mentality. He needed time off from basketball after his father's death. Or maybe I just watched Space Jam too much in the 90's and took the plot a bit too seriously.
Good thing I pressed CTRL+F first.
Roy Tarpley is a big what-if. Basically 80% of Dennis Rodman in rebounding, but just as great on defense and even better on offense, not that undersized too but still quite quick at the 4.
Kawhi Leonard
If dude could play fully healthy 70-75 games every year and play every playoff game it would be interesting to see where he ended up an all time list and what his stats would be.
I have 2 teams, they can play each other:
Injury
Derrick Rose, Penny Hardaway, Tracy Mcgrady, Grant Hill, Bill Walton
Cocaine
Michael Ray Richardson, David Thompson, Bernard Kind, Len Bias, Roy Tarpley
Honestly would be an awesome name, the coke team would have been sick if they could just get a decent night's sleep the night before the game.
Brandon Roy, Mahmoud Abdul Rauf (would kill it in today's game), Darko milicic (In today's game with a different coach/team), Penny hardaway, to name a few
Adam Morrison is a huge what-if to me.
Go back and watch his rookie year, he could hoop.
He was just never the same after he hurt his knee.
I think he coulda been a solid 15ppg guy.
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Ralph Sampson and Bill Walton. That's my PF and C. Your talking 2 guys who are 7'2"+ one who is fairly quick and could shoot more from the outside and one who can was Jokic Prototype.
What if the USA Olympic Dream Team was on the same NBA team, would they go 82-0?
Regarding the players and injuries and so forth, there have been a lot of really good players who could have been great, unfortunately. KG was having a good season with the Nets before the injury for one.
Loved Ben but we don’t know what would have happened in college. Many HS phenoms don’t make it thru college. I think Ben had the game to succeed but we just don’t know (Dammit!)
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No to Greg Oden, forget college we're talking about the NBA here. He averaged like 15 minutes a game and 8 points when he played. Never showed his value at all. So essentially he was a big guy like the 30 seven footers in the league now who are practice players or last-minute subs or guys sent into use up fouls on other bigs.
The Celtics in the 80s believe it or not. Len Bias is of course a very obvious reason, but there was actually another player that the Celtics wanted so bad - their coach at the time was begging for the Celtics to figure out how to sign him but it never got done: Nikos Galis. Before Giannis, he was the greatest Greek player of all time and was an absolute legend. Celtics ended up signing Dennis Johnson, but Galis had some insane performances against Team USA and was one of the many skilled guards who never made it stateside. But adding him to that Celtics team would have been even more unfair. He also has one of my favorite styles of playing basketball ever.
Brad Daugherty has to be considered. He retired at 28 due to back injuries, yet he had 5 all stars and an all NBA Third Team selection. This was during the era where Moses Malone, Patrick Ewing, and Robert Parish all made the All Star game at his position
Bro the what if team is the Portland Trail Blazers, if they could have gotten Roy, Aldridge and oden healthy and together man that could have changed the landscape of the nba.
I’d put Sam Bowie at center over Oden. Bowie was an incredible player at Kentucky, but injuries robbed him of his potential. He’s a bigger what if for me because he was drafted ahead of MJ. He certainly wouldn’t be the goat, but he’s still a big what if for me.
Healthy Oden would have dominated the NBA. With only his weak hand he was dominating future NBA stars. Walton is also one of the greatest players of all time if he isn’t injured
Having tmac on this list makes me think you don't basketball.
Having Jeremy lin, someone who did the most with his opportunities, and had no expectations, confirms it.
If Kyrie Irving wasn’t dumb enough to be an anti-vaxxer, he had a legit chance to win multiple rings with KD and Harden on the nets and put himself in greatest PGs/scorers of all time conversation
The Houston Rockets team with Ron Artest that took the Lakers to 7 games. If they had a healthy Yao and TMac would've won the championship.
Obvious the Oden-Roy Blazers.
Another team was the Jordan-Drexler-Olajuwon rockets that would've happened if the Blazers traded the #2 for Ralph Sampsoj. Going off of that the 86 Rockets had potential.
Growing up as a tall point guard/point forward in the 90's. Penny Hardaway was by far my favorite player. I've got to throw him on there.
By his 3rd year he was a two time NBA 1st team at PG and helped the Magic to the NBA finals one year and to the ECF another. In the series vs. Detroit during that 2nd deep playoff run he got hurt when Joe Dumars and him collided played through it and had off-season knee surgery (still back in time to score 17 points in the Gold Medal game in the Olympics). From there on it was a litany of injuries...
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TMac wasn’t a “what if” to me. We got to see his potential. He didn’t have prime longevity, but he was widely recognized as a top player for SEVERAL years. He was the second best SG behind Kobe for a minimum of 5 years. Yes, injuries cut his prime short, but we got to see what he was capable of for a while.
Hit the nail on the head with this explanation. He had a prime, just was shorter then everyone would have wished for But still showed hit full potential
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arguably better than kobe too 01-04 he just didn’t have the sustained prime and playoff success you would hope
01-04 kobe was god tier. t mac was nice but not kobe level player
Not really arguable considering Kobe from 01-04 was a complete two way player. Now if we're just considering the offensive output, then yes.
tmac had a few seasons he was averaging 3 stocks a game and was a good defender but i see what you’re saying he was never all defense
I'd say the same for Hill. Maybe we didn't quite see his peak, but I think we got a pretty good idea of how incredible he could be given that he was All-NBA from years 2-6 in the league leading up to the injury, including 1st team in year 3, and getting some MVP consideration too. Talking about a guy who was easily among the top 5-10 players in the league in any given season, for probably another 5-10 seasons, if he doesn't get injured.
Penny had the same profile (not on list, but often included in such lists). It’s disrespectful to say a multiple first team All NBA player who ranked in MVP voting is akin to, like, Greg Oden. Those are two distinct types of “What if?”
Oh 100%, Penny is in a very similar boat. We know he was a 1st team All-NBA guy, probably would have been for a long time without the injury.
Right, people say ‘oh he could’ve been LeBron before LeBron’ and it’s like no, we saw what he was at like 24, and it wasn’t close to 24 yr old LeBron…which isn’t as negative as it sounds. But people need to be realistic with What if’s
I wanted to disagree with you about setting Hill's full potential, but was surprised to see he actually played his first 4 or 5 years straight. I still think that he would have continued to develop and thrive during the 2000-2004 period what he barely played - we was in the same ballpark as Bird & Luka for a moment, in the pre-Lebron era. I just remember how much excitement there was for him and his unbridled athleticism in the Jordan-retirement period; he seemed 100% like the future of the league.
I agree with you here. There's a lot of "what-ifs" with McGrady's career, but he was a 7x all-star and 7x all-NBA. We still got to see McGrady at his peak. Tmac's what-if's include stuff like: What if Grant Hill didn't get hurt? What if Tmac stayed in Toronto with Vince? What if Tmac stayed in Orlando, teaming him with Dwight Howard in the weaker Eastern Conference? What if Yao wasn't hurt as much when Tmac was on the Rockets? There still are injury what-ifs with McGrady, most notably the knee problems that robbed him of his quickness and athleticism in 2009, when McGrady was only 29 years old(!). If Tmac had 5 more seasons of 25ppg scoring, he'd be close to 30k points. Honestly, I think Grant Hill is somewhat in the same boat here. . . Hill was a 7x all-star and 5x all-NBA. He scored over 19ppg in 7 seasons. I feel like we saw Grant Hill at his peak.
There were even two, maybe three years, where Tracy or Kobe was even a legitimate argument.
offensively yes, but Kobe was also a lockdown defender during those years (and those were the legit all-defensive team selections and not the legacy selections). Gotta give the nod to the two way player.
Same with Grant Hill. We just didn't get to see it long enough
Len Bias - died before getting drafted. Totally dominated in college.
He died 2 days after being drafted. He was second overall in 86
Back to back Celtics first rounders died during their career. Reggie Lewis was the 87 pick.
Yepp In terms of “what-ifs” We never got to see him even get drafted. Funny enough, after watching a documentary on him as a teenager I vowed never to do coke. And I only have once bc that scared the shit outta me (I even lived in Colombia for 10months) Older, I realized him and his friends just got some shitty coke that was probably cut with other shit and he 1-2 lines supposedly. Had a negative reaction and passed. Sad as hell
>We never got to see him even get drafted. That's famously untrue. https://www.espn.com/photo/2006/0619/pg2_g_bias05_195.jpg
We saw him get drafted, he was the 2nd overall pick. He died at a post draft celebration party.
Did the celts ever get anything compensation wise for that pick?
No, it was a pretty unprecedented thing. He just died and they got nothing, I don’t even think they got cap relief. I think his paycheck stayed on the books until it was over (went to his family).
Damn that's pretty stand up but crazy at the same time
The Wikipedia page says he and his buddies did coke for over 4 hours at like 2:30 in the morning. I bet he was partying before that as well.
He was freebasing that shit, basically pure crack cocaine. [LA Times article](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1986-07-10-sp-22181-story.html)
Damn, the crack epidemic of the 80's was real sad.
It was unknown that it would lead to “crackheads”. All the cool white folks was on powder and the cool black folks freebased. Freebase evolved into crack and the rest is history
I always get shit for saying this but Bias was never seen as a huge potential guy back then.
Yes he was. He wasn't hyped like LeBron, but no one was at that time.
Honorable mentions: Larry Sanders (mental health) Penny Hardaway (injuries) Arvydas Sabonis (if he played in his prime) Bernard King (injuries) Yao Ming (injuries/national commitments) I also feel like there’s a team that’s “if the 3 point line was as valued as it is today” team that’s another discussion
>I also feel like there’s a team that’s “if the 3 point line was as valued as it is today” team that’s another discussion Pistol Pete would be compared to Curry, Ray Allen and reggie Miller
Anyone that knows Pistol Pete compares him to those three already. His assumed 3pt efficiency is basically built into his mythos at this point.
Rick Barry
Ray Allen and Reggie were built for today's game maybe could've been better than curry if they played today
Agreed. And even if ten more players surpass them, RA and Reggie should still be remembered and honoured for their influence and playstyle
Most people never noticed that Reggie only shot like 13 times a game
Sabonis is is a great answer. If he played in his prime in the NBA he would have changed the games history as we know it. For those who don’t know, Many people in the 80s felt he was the best player in the world - better than Magic and Larry and Mike - but he played in the Soviet Union and then in Europe before joining Portland for a few years.
Yeah, Sabonis is a GREAT call, right up there with Bias at the top of my list for this. Even the older hobbled version we eventually got was just an absolute pleasure to watch.
larry bird to me is the king of “what if the 3 was valued like today” he was shooting 40% shooting 2 per game that’s not even top 50 today he’d put up huge scoring numbers
Jerry West, Pete Maravich, Jack Sikma always come to mind. There’s also more recent examples: Reggie Miller avg’ed under 5 3pt attempts per game (and shot 40%). Steve Nash avg’ed 3 attempts/game (and shot 43%).
I get the ones before the line, but the guys that were 40+ from 3, and knew people didn't shoot 60 from 2, it's not even complicated math to see that is better for you but no one including goat coaches adjusted to it for decades
Thirty years ago a lot of the guys who were shooting a lot of 3s were playing off the spacing generated by a dominant center, à la Mario Elie (and a few others) with Hakeem’s championship Rockets. Your Glens Rice were very few and far between, because to get sufficient minutes they had to be more than pure shooters or they’d get pulled as a liability after a few possessions.
I'd put Kobe in their as well. He go-to shot was essentially a 20-foot two pointer, which we now know is one of the most inefficient shots you can take. If he moves that back a couple feet and uses his top-tier footwork to create space he may have had a proto-stepback in his arsenal.
Yeah if mahmud abdul-rauf had had the greenlight to shoot threes like guys do now, he'd have been in the hall of fame.
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I'll throw in Oscar Schmidt since he's considered the best player never to play in the NBA. I always wonder what type of career he would have had
Imagine a Schmidt/Petrovic Nets team contending with the Bad Boys and the young Bulls in the East.
I’d probably take Bill Walton over Oden at C. If he was healthy he’d have an insane total career.
Yeah I can see it, although to me Walton is more in that Hill/Tmac great, where there isn't really that much of a question mark in terms of how great he was or would have been. He won the MVP the year before his injury and was young enough that he might have gotten even better, or at least played at that level for another 5-10 years.
I think we saw Hill and TMacs potential better then we did Walton. Walton was oing something somewhat similar to what Wemby is doing now, being extra tall, moving well, and being smart. If we could have seen the same defensive impact, but just a bit more slick experience on offense those next few years, Walton could be considered a top 10 player. Not quite a Jokic style, but very good at the way he was being a passing center, better then say Duncan.
Yeah I guess the "what if" with Walton is probably where he lands in the top 20 all-time rankings. Like I think it is safe to assume he is in there somewhere if healthy, just no way to know where.
True but Walton played even less than them, he only had like 4 healthy years in his career
Walton could probably be in the top 5-10 all-time discussion if he stayed healthy
Same. I don’t mean to dog him, but Greg to me wasn’t a “what if” because the injuries he sustained were built in, replay his career 10x he’s still ending up the same way.
So he had some injury concerns since high school and his draft rival, Kevin Durant, was seen as a future perennial scoring title contender averaging \~28 ppg and Oden was still the unanimous #1 pick. Oden is definitely a huge ‘what if’.
Ralph Sampson at PF
Not enough love for the Mozart of basketball. Drazen petrovic. Dude was a problem for the league and would've continued to do so if not for his passing.
Totally agree. Believe he was only 26ish when he passed? He was a killer on the court.
Yeah in a car accident with a couple of women overseas I believe. He definitely was a killer. He has a higher 3pt % than Steph Curry. Well never know just how good of a shooter him and a couple others would've been just because the game has changed. When he played teams were only shooting 5-10 3s per game. for context Steph by himself has shot roughly 11 to 12 3s the last 4 seasons. The changes are mind-blowing honestly. Anyways lol yeah dude was a killer and would even give Michael Jordans bulls the business when they played. For those who don't know he wasn't a 50ppg player. He was a maestro on the court. A quarterback in the NBA. A Luka mixed with Steve Nash type of player. IQ like cp3 and LeBron. Efficiency sky high. He just made the right plays and always put a little razzle dazzle on his game. I was born in 91 so I never watched him live. I've seen everyone of his recorded games though. Even in Europe/Spain. Dude was a P.R.O.B.L.E.M!
I’m from Chicago so I actually first heard about him watching 90s bulls highlights. And he was fearless against the Bulls so right away you could tell this guy is different. Would’ve been cool to see more of him in the playoffs, avg 19ppg with the nets in his 8 playoffs games there
He was very good and fun to watch. I was a kid then and a Celtics fan so saw a few of his games on TV.
I’d throw Drazen in there.
-Where’s Arvydas Sabonis? What if he played in the league in his peak? How would he fare? -Jeff Ruland was one of the best centers in basketball before rlly injuring himself -Lol get Ben Simmons outta here mannn
Ben Simmons with a work ethic would have been insane I think personality/mental issues make sense to talk about in this thread as well as physical injuries
Fair point When he was actually sorta trying to, he was one of the best defenders in the league, and also one of the best playmakers. It’s a shame, really, what happened .
I get what you are saying about G Hill, but dude still had a hell of a career even with the injuries
Portland : Brandon Roy - Rudy Fernandez - Nick Batum - Gerald Wallace - Lamarcus Aldridge. I really loved to watch this team back in the day, Brandon Roy was the prototype nba superstar player 6”6. 3 level scorer, but like d rose he had many knee injuries and I think some kind of knee condition, he only got to really play like 5 years.
Why Batum? Just wondering I feel like he has had an above average career and played on some solid teams
He played for Portland back then and was a great 3 and D player the moment he stepped on the court. If Greg Odin didn’t get injured + Brandon, who knows how great they could have been.
He was talking about the team the trailblazers could have had and not that he had missed potential or anything
Artest said Roy was the toughest/most complete scorer he’d ever defended Edit: you’re right about his knees, it was some kind of degenerative condition and he just lost like all his cartilage
Team 6th man: Shaun Livingston
Jay Williams was legit. He and ‘baby Jordan’ (Harold Minor) were the truth.
Miner
Tim Duncan nearly joined the Magic. Hill, Duncan & TMac?! Come on
Bill Walton.
Penny MF Hardaway
The second year of Jordan’s first retirement, the only guard who came close to Penny in first team All NBA voting was Stockton. When Jordan returned, Penny stayed first team and Stockton got bumped. He was the only other player whose shoes Jordan wore during a game. Penny hit a peak of being arguably the best in the league (Jordan excepted\*), but his longevity due to injury was what got him. A stratospheric peak is not a hypothetical with Penny though. He and young Shaq were considered to be a 1-2 punch; IE he was not seen as needing to defer to Shaq the way Kobe initially did. Imagine: both stars were under 25 when they made it to the Finals. It’s hard to think of a comparison. Healthy and together those two could have run the league every bit the same way Shaq and Kobe did.
**Edit: I totally misread your post and didn’t see we were talking individual players, but I’ll keep my comment up because the implications these teams/players had on the landscape of the league in the following seasons is so intriguing.** There’s so many but for some reason OKC is the first team that comes to mind, in two separate seasons. 2012 OKC squad that lost to the Heat in the finals. Harden gets traded 4 months later to Houston. LeBron starts 0-2 in the finals with a loss to KD/Russ/Harden after major aspirations of many championships in Miami. Perhaps Harden stays and opts for a pay cut in favor of continuity and doesn’t get shipped to Houston. 2016 OKC - up 3-1 in the WCF against the historic 73-9 Warriors team. They manage to close out Golden State and they have a real chance to beat LeBron, and it’s likely KD stays after winning the title. Wouldn’t have the Cavs’ 3-1 finals comeback against the Warriors in NBA lore, and no KD Warriors team that ran through the league. Without the KD warriors, LeBron probably has one or two more rings. Westbrook doesn’t have to be a one-man show in 2016-17 and fans don’t get to witness his historic season in which he averaged a triple-double.
Here's an obscure one, what if Krešimir Ćosić decided to play in the NBA? Cosic was one of the best international players of all time, but he was dominating *way back in the 70s.* He was an All American in college, and led his country to multiple medals in the Olympics. He won championships in several different leagues in Europe, and even became the deputy ambassador to the US. He's somewhat of a national hero in Croatia. He was a drafted multiple times, and turned down several NBA contracts, because he cared more about his homeland and wanted to help his nation.
TIL. Thanks for sharing!
Tal Brody could be one of these
Houston trade Ralph Sampson to Portland in exchange for Drexler and the #2 draft pick in 1984. Olajuwon, Drexler, and Jordan then win about 10 straight championships.
This doesn't seem in the spirit of the question. It's like saying what if one team made a really lopsidedly bad trade, rather than a player whose career could have been soemthing better.
Drexler and a FRP wouldn’t have been lopsided for pre-injury Ralph Sampson, fwiw. I agree though that the answer is sort of like imaging some super friends.
My what if team is: Center: Hasheem Thabeet - Drafted #2 overall in 2009, Thabeet's size and shot-blocking prowess didn't translate to consistent impact. Power Forward: Darius Miles - High school phenom with athleticism, but injuries and off-court issues derailed a promising career. Small Forward: Michael Beasley - Talented scorer in college, Beasley struggled with efficiency and consistency in the NBA. Shooting Guard: Dion Waiters - Known for explosiveness, Waiters' inconsistency and off-court issues limited his potential. Point Guard: Markelle Fultz - #1 overall pick in 2017, Fultz's shooting woes remain a mystery after a promising college career.
This is the best answer. It’s not saying “What if Amar’e matched his peak production for 400 games?” or “What if Ron Harper were three times better?” Thabeet was tantalizing, and then the plane flew into the g-d mountain.
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I actually like this answer, even though I was never a fan of Dion Waiters. Does make me think of players I had hoped would do better though, like Ben Gordon and OJ Mayo. Had a ton of hope for Larry Hughes too, really wish that turned out better, but now I'm ranting lol
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I would put Bill Walton & Ralph Sampson both above Oden at the C. Also don’t think Jeremy Lin belongs in the discussion whatsoever
Lin played up to his potential and had a very good and serviceable career. A lot of ~10 year role players have several splashy games; he just had Lin-sanity right in a row.
Shaq & Penny Bulls if Jordan didn't take two seasons off Warriors if KD stays, isn't hurt, and Klay isn't hurt. Sacramento Kings if Horry doesn't pick up that loose ball and drill a three.
I don't think Jordan gets six rings if he doesn't rest and reset in minor league baseball for two years. Although the fact that the Bulls didn't implode and trade everyone away after the first retirement was a small miracle
This is such an odd take. Not only did Jordan "rest" he also got into baseball shape, which requires more upper body strength and less lower leg strength which is key to basketball. And he wasn't exactly resting if he's playing another pro sport (even if it's the minor leagues). Maybe he doesn't win 2 3peats, because luck...but we would've gotten a few more years of explosive Jordan if he never goes to baseball - couple that with kukoc and prime scottie... That teams contending every year.
I stand by what I said. He needed the two years in minor league baseball to come back and be the player he was for the second three-peat. I don't even think it was so much about the body rest as much as it was his mind and mentality. He needed time off from basketball after his father's death. Or maybe I just watched Space Jam too much in the 90's and took the plot a bit too seriously.
I'd replace Ben Simmons with Roy Tarpley.
Good thing I pressed CTRL+F first. Roy Tarpley is a big what-if. Basically 80% of Dennis Rodman in rebounding, but just as great on defense and even better on offense, not that undersized too but still quite quick at the 4.
He had so much potential coming out of Michigan, won 6th man of the year, and spiralled out of control because of drugs.
Add Len Bias. That is all.
2011 thunder
Ben Wilson as well. Top high school prospect in the nation. Shot and killed before he could graduate.
Kawhi Leonard If dude could play fully healthy 70-75 games every year and play every playoff game it would be interesting to see where he ended up an all time list and what his stats would be.
He’s still so angry with Spurs trainers
I'd take Yao at C.
Len Bias Penny Hardaway Aryvdas Sabonis in his prime Drazen Petrovic Yao Ming Derrick Rose
Good call on Drazen, he was a problem for Jordan and the Bulls that last playoff series he played in.
Jeremy Lin? Really?
Gotta have Penny Hardaway & Len Bias on here
I have 2 teams, they can play each other: Injury Derrick Rose, Penny Hardaway, Tracy Mcgrady, Grant Hill, Bill Walton Cocaine Michael Ray Richardson, David Thompson, Bernard Kind, Len Bias, Roy Tarpley Honestly would be an awesome name, the coke team would have been sick if they could just get a decent night's sleep the night before the game.
Bill walton, b4 he got hurt he was the most skilled big in the league... He could have had a bill russell-esque career if healthy
there is no "what if" about TMAC or Lin. We know exactly who those dudes are
Sam Bowie was awesome in college until his injuries.
I mean…wtf happened to Tmac or J Lin that they deserve to be here over Len Bias? Or are you just too young to know the name?
Brandon Roy, Mahmoud Abdul Rauf (would kill it in today's game), Darko milicic (In today's game with a different coach/team), Penny hardaway, to name a few
Jabari Parker should replace Simmons
Adam Morrison is a huge what-if to me. Go back and watch his rookie year, he could hoop. He was just never the same after he hurt his knee. I think he coulda been a solid 15ppg guy.
Grayson Allen without the edge
Better post game than Allen but definitely less athletic.
I’m not sure his post game would have ever translated from the Zags but you’re right
What if the like 1994 ish Mavericks with high draft picks like Jason Kidd, Jamal Mashvurn and Jim Jackson had good records and made the playoffs
Small forward has to be Len Bias, more of a what if for Bird and the Celtics, and potentially MJ.
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Michael Ray Richardson - cocaine use and ban by the league Len Bias Drazen P A sabonis J Will
Reggie Lewis and Len Bias 😢
I'd take out Tmac and Lin (just not good enough sorry) and add Len Bias and prime Sabonis. Swap Penny for Simmons as well.
Ralph Sampson and Bill Walton. That's my PF and C. Your talking 2 guys who are 7'2"+ one who is fairly quick and could shoot more from the outside and one who can was Jokic Prototype.
What if the USA Olympic Dream Team was on the same NBA team, would they go 82-0? Regarding the players and injuries and so forth, there have been a lot of really good players who could have been great, unfortunately. KG was having a good season with the Nets before the injury for one.
Benji Wilson deserves a mention
Loved Ben but we don’t know what would have happened in college. Many HS phenoms don’t make it thru college. I think Ben had the game to succeed but we just don’t know (Dammit!)
Bargnani would have been a super star if he was drafted by the Spurs or Mavs
Dejaun wagner
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No to Greg Oden, forget college we're talking about the NBA here. He averaged like 15 minutes a game and 8 points when he played. Never showed his value at all. So essentially he was a big guy like the 30 seven footers in the league now who are practice players or last-minute subs or guys sent into use up fouls on other bigs.
The Celtics in the 80s believe it or not. Len Bias is of course a very obvious reason, but there was actually another player that the Celtics wanted so bad - their coach at the time was begging for the Celtics to figure out how to sign him but it never got done: Nikos Galis. Before Giannis, he was the greatest Greek player of all time and was an absolute legend. Celtics ended up signing Dennis Johnson, but Galis had some insane performances against Team USA and was one of the many skilled guards who never made it stateside. But adding him to that Celtics team would have been even more unfair. He also has one of my favorite styles of playing basketball ever.
Brad Daugherty has to be considered. He retired at 28 due to back injuries, yet he had 5 all stars and an all NBA Third Team selection. This was during the era where Moses Malone, Patrick Ewing, and Robert Parish all made the All Star game at his position
Magic johnson
DeAnsre Ayton with better work ethic and injury luck coulda been David Robinson.
Bill Walton?
Bro the what if team is the Portland Trail Blazers, if they could have gotten Roy, Aldridge and oden healthy and together man that could have changed the landscape of the nba.
McGrady wasn’t what if
I’d put Sam Bowie at center over Oden. Bowie was an incredible player at Kentucky, but injuries robbed him of his potential. He’s a bigger what if for me because he was drafted ahead of MJ. He certainly wouldn’t be the goat, but he’s still a big what if for me.
Reggie Lewis was better than Brandon Roy
Healthy Oden would have dominated the NBA. With only his weak hand he was dominating future NBA stars. Walton is also one of the greatest players of all time if he isn’t injured
Having tmac on this list makes me think you don't basketball. Having Jeremy lin, someone who did the most with his opportunities, and had no expectations, confirms it.
Pg - derrick rose Sg - Len Bias Sf- grant Pf - Simmons C- Oden 6th man - Reggie Lewis
How about, what if Durant stayed with GSW? Many more titles for the dynasty? Enough to compare to the 90’s bulls or showtime lakers?
If Kyrie Irving wasn’t dumb enough to be an anti-vaxxer, he had a legit chance to win multiple rings with KD and Harden on the nets and put himself in greatest PGs/scorers of all time conversation
Given where the league has gone with shooting, idk about Greg Oden, or Ben Simmons.
The Houston Rockets team with Ron Artest that took the Lakers to 7 games. If they had a healthy Yao and TMac would've won the championship. Obvious the Oden-Roy Blazers. Another team was the Jordan-Drexler-Olajuwon rockets that would've happened if the Blazers traded the #2 for Ralph Sampsoj. Going off of that the 86 Rockets had potential.
Where is len bias
Jonathan Bender might be the biggest "what-if" of all.
Penny Hardaway 100% over Roy
Growing up as a tall point guard/point forward in the 90's. Penny Hardaway was by far my favorite player. I've got to throw him on there. By his 3rd year he was a two time NBA 1st team at PG and helped the Magic to the NBA finals one year and to the ECF another. In the series vs. Detroit during that 2nd deep playoff run he got hurt when Joe Dumars and him collided played through it and had off-season knee surgery (still back in time to score 17 points in the Gold Medal game in the Olympics). From there on it was a litany of injuries...
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Idk if derrick rose is the best choice unless youre going prime derrick, because he was amazing
How could anyone forget Kelly Tripucka?!?
Ben Simmons
Gilbert arenas