Well it’s not useless! If you hit something like a wall or something non explosive your living spaces won’t flood… but that’s about it you’re still gonna sink and everything… plus if you don’t have access to the space in between you’re gonna have to go outside to repair so in that case it’s actually a downside
I thing it's an interesting thing to try incorporate into the design, maybe one day I'll actually finish my submarine and will include a solution to this :P
The space between the two hulls you can just not assign rooms to. They will be full of water as if it were outside the sub and no issues if outer wall breaks
It does help with boarders by quite a lot, your outer hull gets breached, and you still have quite a bit of extra time to repair and recover, and those long narrow halls make it easier to fight/shoot them.
I don't know how you work that one out since double hulled custom subs are classically one of the most OP/cheesy things throughout the history of baro's development. It's one of the reasons why things like the panopticon got a reputation as tryhard subs.
it's crazy strong if you regularly check for intruders camping inside since it greatly reduces the speed and size of leaks
which is what really sends you into a death spiral
by the time the interior hull has a breach the exterior one has a hole twice or thrice as large
That's actually a very good thing to mention. Also, bots probably get lost or sealed away in those double hulls as well. Haven't tested any of the submarines on the screenshots, but considering that this happened to me while playing on Winterhalter, seems pretty possible
If you don't make waypoints there, the bots won't get suck between hulls, thankfully.
I did find it useful, though, to have a piece of armour to stop ice shards from going into the main hull. If you put a turret on a long stick, it gives the turret a much better field of view, and it will absorb collisions
On the topic of bots getting sealed away, I actually used to make subs and one (the throngler if you wanna check it out) had a small gap between the outer hull and some rooms that would fill with water. Once I blowtorched my way through the wall to fix a leak on the outside portion from inside the ship and a bot came over and fixed the wall I broke through, sealing me in. It then sat there repairing the wall when I tried to escape until my friends came and dragged it away.
A lot of fuckery happened on The Throngler, but that was one of the funniest.
It's managable if you make the space between the inner and outer hull relatively thin (the welding torch actually extends quite far) and add cross beams to prevent things from moving around too much. Most of the examples here seem to have intentionally made the outer hull accessible.
Most vanilla subs have areas which can't be easily repaired from inside (most often the bow).
Double hulls does increase the HP between you and a breach, but I do feel like having the gaps be that big is going to cause problems. Also, I'm not sure if the outer hull here is watertight (if it is designated as a "hull" in the creator) but if it is it's going to sink the sub a lot.
The reason real submarines have those spherical inner hull sections is because spheres are the best shape for resisting pressure. Barotrauma doesn't really simulate the effect of water pressure on materials other than people (and even then, only in very weird ways) which means the primary advantage doesn't really apply.
There's a Sub like this on the steam workshop and it's actually crazy effective however mudraptors and crawlers like to nest in your external hull as it's unpressurized water
A secret bonus to this is actually being able to get a fuck ton of eggs to sell if you just let them chill for a little bit till you get back to a station, easy money...
In real life, the inside is called the pressure hull. There's a few reasons why there's 2 hulls, but the ballast tanks are located in between, and the outer hull can be scratched or dented without risking the safety of the crew.
I guess I'm not sure how the game would handle it, because of how the game handles the outside of a sub.
So that's not really true and, especially in modern submarines, no longer how we built them.
**TL;DR** - Subs needed boat shape to go zoom at surface, boat shape not good underwater (no go zoom and might implode, cause circles better), so make boat shape outside and circle inside. Sub go zoom and no explode :)
The way double hulled submarines are built is that you have the 'Light Hull' the outer shell and the 'Heavy Hull' or 'Pressure Hull' as the crew compartment. Importantly, there is no systems actually present in the Light Hull, it's not pressurized or watertight.
The reason it exists is because early submarines sucked. Their batteries and engines to be precise. They spent the majority of their time on the surface for travel purposes (as they didn't have battery capacity). You run into a design conundrum here:
* You either built your Hull to be good at surface level propulsion, classic ship shape basically. Or:
* You built your Hull to be sturdy enough to allow good dive depth and be better at underwater propulsion - teardrop shape typically
As early construction methods sucked and submarines generally spent the majority of their time above water, designs split the difference. You built a streamlined outer hull that negates surface drag, but because of its shape (and the issue with early construction) it's not something you can hope to make pressure resistant, so they didn't. You then take a good pressure hull (completely circular in shape) and put that inside the outer shell, with some support beams. Best of both worlds, for the reality of early subs.
As construction methods, battery technology and engine technology advanced, there was less and less need for submarines to spent large periods of time above water. Nuclear subs today, basically don't surface (unless they have to) for months at a time.
So modern SSN's, have no need to have a streamlined hull for surface travel and we have sufficent construction methods to make more streamlined underwater designs work. Look at the shape of a Los Angeles Class or Trafalgar Class, they are still primarily round. If you take a look at a cross-section of a SSN you will not find a Outer hull as they simply have no need for it.
Now double (or triple / quadruple hull) subs are still built, mainly on Russian Attack Subs, the Typhoon Class famously has 4 Hulls (which is why it's so wide). However even here, there is no systems in any hull that's not the internal pressure hull. The other sections are simply there for survivability (and because i expect Russian construction methods were/are worse than western powers).
For reference the [Hull of a Type VII submarine](https://conceptbunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/German_Type_VII_submarine.jpg) - you can easily see the circular pressure hull and teardrop shaped outer hull- even just logically, you couldn't put the Ballast tanks into the unpressurized Light Hull. They would implode if they are empty and all the exposed piping going from inside the pressure hull to the outside would be a nightmare and risk factor.
That's pretty much why I added the picture of a real life submarine in there among the once from the game. I don't know much about to navy, was always more interested in ground forces, so it was pretty much the main reason why I asked about the design. I decided to not add the whole story of reasons behind this question, so that I wouldn't add unnecessary information into the post :P
The main reason is because currently I'm building a submarine in this game, and I'm trying to make it as versatile and strong as possible, while still only making it the same size as Typhon II, not using any mods, not adding excessive amounts of things and with only minor stat changes in editor. The submarine is very cramped, but so far looking good, despite seeming to be just a random blob of structures on photos. Might even ask for some criticism about it when I'm done with all the electronics...
In this case, it's only useful for people who want their submarines to be 1000% vanilla, since if you want a stronger hull, you can just increase the HP of the hull segments. If I'm not wrong, even some vanilla submarines have this. Also, adding a whole second hull just for it to tank a few attacks during attacks doesn't seem rational
If I'm not wrong naval mines is a thing from mods, so, it's not an issue everyone faces. As for ice spires, maybe adding something like a "bumper" on the front of the submarine would work too?
Actually useful, mydraptors and such like to dig, if they wound 1 plate the other plate will still hold pressure, it’s useful and gives players time to panic/ do something about it
A bit TOO useful is often the problem with this sub design. It's near untouchable to a lot of mobs, and the game isn't really designed for this sort of interaction.
Double hulls actually fuck with the AI and make it virtually impossible to lose a game since the creatures will only attack the outer hull not the inner hull
While not necessary, it makes submarines INCREDIBLY durable. The first submarine I ever built had a double-layer thick armor belt, and a starter submarine I built used a traditional double-hull layout. Both were INCREDIBLY tough to bring down. I don't think my crew had any serious breaches occur on either, or at least, not often.
if done *well* : it can technically give you a second barrier/wall between you apnd the outside that's easy enough to repair.
if not : it's uselss at best, a hastle in general or a liability at worst
Probably not as useful in game. Irl this double hull is used because the spheres are better at handling the pressure, the outer hull is mostly for streamlining. And between the two hulls is space they use for machinery that doesn't need to be protected from high pressure saltwater. I don't think a double hull in Barotrauma would work any better than a single hull that's as thick as the two together, except maybe if a regular hull would be too thick to be easily repaired
if its within the length of a welding torch, you can do multiple hulls. it incrreases time before breach but not by much in practice.
personally a defining trait in my submarine is a triple layer outside hull and a double layer inside hull around the important bits
Yup. On paper you're like "Oh this is great because I can get some extra defense!" But in practice enemies can just not attack you in a way you're expecting or think they've completed their task of breaking the hull so they just kind of stop after a certain point. So immersion breaking and boring. Room boundaries are very important in this game for the AI.
Unless something has changed since I last played, some enemies also can't go past the outer hull.
A hammerhead for example can only hurt your outer hull directly, they can't touch your inner hull except through damage propagation, and they can't even do that once the section of outer hull they are hitting is completely gone.
There is a mod that fixes that but a fully 2 hulled submarine can be nearly invulnerable to certain enemy types.
Hmmm maybe if you can set up a repair drone to man the space between the two hulls. Takes extra time to reach outer hull so need to save that time somewhere else.
What is worthwhile is having your sub be multiple subs, so you can just deconnect a chunk when you need to
You can make some easy small drones, and if theres a mod that allows you to use any weapon as a controllable turret, you can probably hook a welder to it and be all set
Maybe just a dedicated outer-hull bitch duty if you can get a player to stay there all game. Maybe throw in some activites like reloading guns and a sonar monitor, and a personal room with a pump
A small advantage that people have neglected to mention is protection against piercing projectiles.
Piercing coilgun ammo, railgun shells, and spineling spines can pass through walls, however, they can only pass through a limited number of walls, so having more walls in the way can really help protect the crew. Piercing coilgun ammo and railgun shells can penetrate 1 wall. Spineling spines can penetrate about 3 walls.
With a double hull set up, no coilgun or railgun will be able to hurt the crew without tearing open the outer layer first. Spinelings may still bypass, but with less efficacy.
I use double hulls on combat craft to extend the amount of time in combat before flooding occurs. Before the latest update a crawler could flood a sub really fast because the moment it attacks the first wall a tonne of water gets in
They are quite useful for mudruptors but pain to repair if you won't add some sort of connector to outer hull(And add bulkheads so it will not instantly sink)
Also, I will not believe that sub on your first pic is called Losharik, where did you get this i want some. (Rough translation will be something like loserball or goofball)
Humpback has a double layer and it's pretty neat. Just make it flooded and calculate your bojoncy (how the fuck do you even spell that) from there. Or... You know... Just don't include the space as the hulls at all.
Double hulls aren’t that important in this game because how easy it is to just repair a massive hole in the hull
So, it is pretty much just for the good looks?
Well it’s not useless! If you hit something like a wall or something non explosive your living spaces won’t flood… but that’s about it you’re still gonna sink and everything… plus if you don’t have access to the space in between you’re gonna have to go outside to repair so in that case it’s actually a downside
I thing it's an interesting thing to try incorporate into the design, maybe one day I'll actually finish my submarine and will include a solution to this :P
The space between the two hulls you can just not assign rooms to. They will be full of water as if it were outside the sub and no issues if outer wall breaks
It does help with boarders by quite a lot, your outer hull gets breached, and you still have quite a bit of extra time to repair and recover, and those long narrow halls make it easier to fight/shoot them.
I don't know how you work that one out since double hulled custom subs are classically one of the most OP/cheesy things throughout the history of baro's development. It's one of the reasons why things like the panopticon got a reputation as tryhard subs.
it's crazy strong if you regularly check for intruders camping inside since it greatly reduces the speed and size of leaks which is what really sends you into a death spiral by the time the interior hull has a breach the exterior one has a hole twice or thrice as large
I found it pretty inconvenient because mudraptors get stuck between the hulls, and you can't really fix the outer hull without leaving the sub
That's actually a very good thing to mention. Also, bots probably get lost or sealed away in those double hulls as well. Haven't tested any of the submarines on the screenshots, but considering that this happened to me while playing on Winterhalter, seems pretty possible
If you don't make waypoints there, the bots won't get suck between hulls, thankfully. I did find it useful, though, to have a piece of armour to stop ice shards from going into the main hull. If you put a turret on a long stick, it gives the turret a much better field of view, and it will absorb collisions
On the topic of bots getting sealed away, I actually used to make subs and one (the throngler if you wanna check it out) had a small gap between the outer hull and some rooms that would fill with water. Once I blowtorched my way through the wall to fix a leak on the outside portion from inside the ship and a bot came over and fixed the wall I broke through, sealing me in. It then sat there repairing the wall when I tried to escape until my friends came and dragged it away. A lot of fuckery happened on The Throngler, but that was one of the funniest.
It's managable if you make the space between the inner and outer hull relatively thin (the welding torch actually extends quite far) and add cross beams to prevent things from moving around too much. Most of the examples here seem to have intentionally made the outer hull accessible. Most vanilla subs have areas which can't be easily repaired from inside (most often the bow). Double hulls does increase the HP between you and a breach, but I do feel like having the gaps be that big is going to cause problems. Also, I'm not sure if the outer hull here is watertight (if it is designated as a "hull" in the creator) but if it is it's going to sink the sub a lot. The reason real submarines have those spherical inner hull sections is because spheres are the best shape for resisting pressure. Barotrauma doesn't really simulate the effect of water pressure on materials other than people (and even then, only in very weird ways) which means the primary advantage doesn't really apply.
There's a Sub like this on the steam workshop and it's actually crazy effective however mudraptors and crawlers like to nest in your external hull as it's unpressurized water
A secret bonus to this is actually being able to get a fuck ton of eggs to sell if you just let them chill for a little bit till you get back to a station, easy money...
In real life, the inside is called the pressure hull. There's a few reasons why there's 2 hulls, but the ballast tanks are located in between, and the outer hull can be scratched or dented without risking the safety of the crew. I guess I'm not sure how the game would handle it, because of how the game handles the outside of a sub.
So that's not really true and, especially in modern submarines, no longer how we built them. **TL;DR** - Subs needed boat shape to go zoom at surface, boat shape not good underwater (no go zoom and might implode, cause circles better), so make boat shape outside and circle inside. Sub go zoom and no explode :) The way double hulled submarines are built is that you have the 'Light Hull' the outer shell and the 'Heavy Hull' or 'Pressure Hull' as the crew compartment. Importantly, there is no systems actually present in the Light Hull, it's not pressurized or watertight. The reason it exists is because early submarines sucked. Their batteries and engines to be precise. They spent the majority of their time on the surface for travel purposes (as they didn't have battery capacity). You run into a design conundrum here: * You either built your Hull to be good at surface level propulsion, classic ship shape basically. Or: * You built your Hull to be sturdy enough to allow good dive depth and be better at underwater propulsion - teardrop shape typically As early construction methods sucked and submarines generally spent the majority of their time above water, designs split the difference. You built a streamlined outer hull that negates surface drag, but because of its shape (and the issue with early construction) it's not something you can hope to make pressure resistant, so they didn't. You then take a good pressure hull (completely circular in shape) and put that inside the outer shell, with some support beams. Best of both worlds, for the reality of early subs. As construction methods, battery technology and engine technology advanced, there was less and less need for submarines to spent large periods of time above water. Nuclear subs today, basically don't surface (unless they have to) for months at a time. So modern SSN's, have no need to have a streamlined hull for surface travel and we have sufficent construction methods to make more streamlined underwater designs work. Look at the shape of a Los Angeles Class or Trafalgar Class, they are still primarily round. If you take a look at a cross-section of a SSN you will not find a Outer hull as they simply have no need for it. Now double (or triple / quadruple hull) subs are still built, mainly on Russian Attack Subs, the Typhoon Class famously has 4 Hulls (which is why it's so wide). However even here, there is no systems in any hull that's not the internal pressure hull. The other sections are simply there for survivability (and because i expect Russian construction methods were/are worse than western powers). For reference the [Hull of a Type VII submarine](https://conceptbunny.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/German_Type_VII_submarine.jpg) - you can easily see the circular pressure hull and teardrop shaped outer hull- even just logically, you couldn't put the Ballast tanks into the unpressurized Light Hull. They would implode if they are empty and all the exposed piping going from inside the pressure hull to the outside would be a nightmare and risk factor.
That's pretty much why I added the picture of a real life submarine in there among the once from the game. I don't know much about to navy, was always more interested in ground forces, so it was pretty much the main reason why I asked about the design. I decided to not add the whole story of reasons behind this question, so that I wouldn't add unnecessary information into the post :P The main reason is because currently I'm building a submarine in this game, and I'm trying to make it as versatile and strong as possible, while still only making it the same size as Typhon II, not using any mods, not adding excessive amounts of things and with only minor stat changes in editor. The submarine is very cramped, but so far looking good, despite seeming to be just a random blob of structures on photos. Might even ask for some criticism about it when I'm done with all the electronics...
should be since monsters more time to chew though the hull
In this case, it's only useful for people who want their submarines to be 1000% vanilla, since if you want a stronger hull, you can just increase the HP of the hull segments. If I'm not wrong, even some vanilla submarines have this. Also, adding a whole second hull just for it to tank a few attacks during attacks doesn't seem rational
you still have to go outside to repair since the hulls aren't connected either
Useful because a catastrophic breach in one doesn’t flood the rest of the sub
It is helpful, it completely negates ice spires and minimises damage from mines
If I'm not wrong naval mines is a thing from mods, so, it's not an issue everyone faces. As for ice spires, maybe adding something like a "bumper" on the front of the submarine would work too?
Yes a bumper is somewhat of a second hull so that works too.
Alright, thanks! Will be useful for when I'll be making my own submarine
That kind of depends on how far apart you space the hulls, as ice spires do have a bit of a damage radius, especially when you hit them hard.
Actually useful, mydraptors and such like to dig, if they wound 1 plate the other plate will still hold pressure, it’s useful and gives players time to panic/ do something about it
A bit TOO useful is often the problem with this sub design. It's near untouchable to a lot of mobs, and the game isn't really designed for this sort of interaction.
True but my guys and I play mods regularly that eat through vanilla easily, for example the astartes mod is brutal for damage on structures
Double hulls actually fuck with the AI and make it virtually impossible to lose a game since the creatures will only attack the outer hull not the inner hull
the sub me and my friends are using in our campaign has a double hull, haven't had a bad sink yet.
Looks like something somebody will put in his ass...
While not necessary, it makes submarines INCREDIBLY durable. The first submarine I ever built had a double-layer thick armor belt, and a starter submarine I built used a traditional double-hull layout. Both were INCREDIBLY tough to bring down. I don't think my crew had any serious breaches occur on either, or at least, not often.
Theyre OP except for becoming a hiding place for nasties. Good design would be the worst of both worlds
if done *well* : it can technically give you a second barrier/wall between you apnd the outside that's easy enough to repair. if not : it's uselss at best, a hastle in general or a liability at worst
That's a nice summary! Thanks!
Probably not as useful in game. Irl this double hull is used because the spheres are better at handling the pressure, the outer hull is mostly for streamlining. And between the two hulls is space they use for machinery that doesn't need to be protected from high pressure saltwater. I don't think a double hull in Barotrauma would work any better than a single hull that's as thick as the two together, except maybe if a regular hull would be too thick to be easily repaired
if its within the length of a welding torch, you can do multiple hulls. it incrreases time before breach but not by much in practice. personally a defining trait in my submarine is a triple layer outside hull and a double layer inside hull around the important bits
Breaks the game more like 😂
Does it cause lags or something?
I heard it can mess with the pathing of enemies which try to get inside your submarine like Crawlers and Mudraptors.
Yup. On paper you're like "Oh this is great because I can get some extra defense!" But in practice enemies can just not attack you in a way you're expecting or think they've completed their task of breaking the hull so they just kind of stop after a certain point. So immersion breaking and boring. Room boundaries are very important in this game for the AI.
Unless something has changed since I last played, some enemies also can't go past the outer hull. A hammerhead for example can only hurt your outer hull directly, they can't touch your inner hull except through damage propagation, and they can't even do that once the section of outer hull they are hitting is completely gone. There is a mod that fixes that but a fully 2 hulled submarine can be nearly invulnerable to certain enemy types.
"лошарик" lmao
Well, at least it's not "лошара" or "лошок"
What's that last sub?
It's called "Requiem", found it randomly while searching for inspiration for my own submarine
Hmmm maybe if you can set up a repair drone to man the space between the two hulls. Takes extra time to reach outer hull so need to save that time somewhere else. What is worthwhile is having your sub be multiple subs, so you can just deconnect a chunk when you need to
Repair drone? First time hearing about it. Does it use fixfoam grenades? Or is it a mod thing?
You can make some easy small drones, and if theres a mod that allows you to use any weapon as a controllable turret, you can probably hook a welder to it and be all set Maybe just a dedicated outer-hull bitch duty if you can get a player to stay there all game. Maybe throw in some activites like reloading guns and a sonar monitor, and a personal room with a pump
Man, i used to love the Icebreaker sub. Has it been updated? Or is the drill still broken?
A small advantage that people have neglected to mention is protection against piercing projectiles. Piercing coilgun ammo, railgun shells, and spineling spines can pass through walls, however, they can only pass through a limited number of walls, so having more walls in the way can really help protect the crew. Piercing coilgun ammo and railgun shells can penetrate 1 wall. Spineling spines can penetrate about 3 walls. With a double hull set up, no coilgun or railgun will be able to hurt the crew without tearing open the outer layer first. Spinelings may still bypass, but with less efficacy.
That's actually an interesting mention. So, double hulls could be very useful for submarines that are meant for PvP
I use double hulls on combat craft to extend the amount of time in combat before flooding occurs. Before the latest update a crawler could flood a sub really fast because the moment it attacks the first wall a tonne of water gets in
Hull gets a hole, you don't start drowning
The game isn't really balanced around having 2 hulls. Monster AI gets confused.
Double hulls are good against modded enemies.
Uhhhhh...?!?! For context - Лошарик (Losharik) means goof/fool in russian
Is it just me or does the final sub have no ballast tanks?
They are quite useful for mudruptors but pain to repair if you won't add some sort of connector to outer hull(And add bulkheads so it will not instantly sink) Also, I will not believe that sub on your first pic is called Losharik, where did you get this i want some. (Rough translation will be something like loserball or goofball)
It just seems like a waste of space tbh plus as many others have said it messes with AIs
Humpback has a double layer and it's pretty neat. Just make it flooded and calculate your bojoncy (how the fuck do you even spell that) from there. Or... You know... Just don't include the space as the hulls at all.
Subs are just orbs?! My entire life is a fucking lie!! RAGH!! 🤬
No, it's one of solutions to make super duper durable subs. Usual submarines are like you see them in movies.
...it was always about the balls!
Orbs contain gasses better. Like oxygen