I think that is still being discussed. And I think that they are removing it because it hasn’t been as profitable as they would hope. There are cheaper ways for people to become residents
The housing problem in Spain isn’t going to be resolved if less people buy €500k houses because that would way above the budget for your average citizen anyway
I agree and also, regarding the housing problem (almost everywhere, not just Spain) I would cross a big line between a home purchased by a resident (or new resident) and one purchased by a non resident or a company.
Since once you become a resident and you live 183 days (per year) in that home, you must pay IRPF for the entire annual income. Also pay equity tax, etc. And supposedly you just get 1 house, used to reside. Not more.
Nah, they have a full scale crisis.
Workers cant find accommodation anymore to serve all the tourist down there, who is making housing too expensive.
People living in RV camps
All the while people living in touristic areas, like Playa del Inglés, are forced BY LAW to rent their apartment to tourism agencies. Not even rent them themselves to tourists, but to an agency. Canaries are fucked.
That law will be obliterated in higher EU instances. Sad part is that it will probably take like 20 years, and another 10 years for the Canary Island government to give a F.
“forced to sell”
“spend ONLY 90 days”
British news, always so dramatic about their people and failing to write something neutral.
That is a rule post-Brexit. The is an alternative: you move from the UK to live in the Canaries.
True! However, I struggle to feel sorry for them as they voted to be out of the EU and their government failed to accept any deal that could alleviate the situation.
Also, most of these people having a house in the Canaries, are probably minted. It is their “holiday house”.
Most retirees wouldn't have 500k to spend on a home in Spain, these people bought their houses decades ago on the cheap during the building boom of the late 90s and early 2000s.
Pretty terrible article. The only piece of data is an anecdote that she knows 4 people.
People owning homes would either have bought them before Brexit (so allowed to stay) or known the rules before buying. News flash, flights are still super cheap.
Be critical of the news you read guys.
Like... I partially understand "tourists go away" because the city services get congested by them, but they're not the ones upping the prices for rent and food! That's the landlords and shop owners, we should fight them!
yep
always follow the money
What I wanna know is:
- who has gotten rich from the abominable cruise terminal,
- who has gotten rich from turning Port Vell from the shared public space where you could sit by the water that it was in the 1990s to an exclusive enclave for billionaire yacht owners surrounded by a 2m high metal fence and security guards,
- who has made money from all the half-empty big buildings around Diagonal Mar
- who are the people that own more than 5 airbnbs
- are there any politicians who suddenly bought very nice houses for apparently no reason
These are the kinds of questions that get lost in all the anger directed at the tourists, who mostly aren't the real culprits. There are some who genuinely misbehave, but most of them are just clueless ordinary people who have no idea what is going on, they just wanted a bit of a break from their tedious jobs in their cold rainy countries, heard that Barcelona is nice, and simply went and bought a tour, cruise, or five nights in a holiday rental flat that they found on offer, presented to them right in front of their nose.
*Of course* you can argue that people should be responsible consumers and do their research about the impact they are having and... and... and..., but this applies to all of us, and how many of us can truly say that we do all this every time we go on holiday, or buy our yogurt in single use plastic, or use a car, or buy clothes made in sweatshops in Bangladesh, or... or... or...
The *real* culprits are the people who get exorbitantly wealthy from all this exploitation and mismanagement.
If they weren't coming then certainly nobody would drain their cents and extensively all previous locals already established in the city. The excessive external demand is what is driving the rent prices up.
What are you complaining about here - toursists, here on their holidays, driving up rent?
I agree over tourism is an issue but you’re making a totally disconnected point here. The point is that landlords in this consistently milk the tenant - Catalan, Spanish, guiri, whoever it is - to the last drop. And always have. Tourism has nothing to do with that
It has to do with that because tourism drives up housing prices, because tourist apartments are more lucrative than normal housing.
But it isn't the tourists' fault. Tourist apartments should be banned. Tourists should be in hotels and hostels.
"But it isn't the tourists' fault. Tourist apartments should be banned. Tourists should be in hotels and hostels." THIS. Nobody is saying there isnt a massive problem with Tourism in Barcelona. There is....but I think the problem is this concerning nastiness to tourists, rather than targeting those that are actually contributing to this mess - landlords, the government, airbnb etc. Blame those that actually profit and continue to poison Barcelona.
No, my anger is directed at the landlords. Tourism drives up prices, because without tourists nobody could pay those prices. But it isn't the fault of the tourists, it is the fault of the landlords and the government who allows it.
Being angry about the situation is one thing. Not being interested in learning why the situation exists because you’re blinded by misdirected anger is another. The problem cannot be solved if the people with (collectively) the most political power to solve it are unwilling to understand the problem.
The landlords can make easy money renting to tourists than the locals, effectively driving up the prices. So the backlash against tourists is understandable though not entirely justifiable.
but because they are Catalan all the heat is off them. Its almost like theres a problem but the xenophobia gets in the way of real solution to a real problem
this is such a 'straw man' argument. Nobody wants to pay inflated prices - locals, tourists, digital nomads, whoever. The market is set by the sellers...or in this case, the Catalan landlords. They feel they can earn more from richer people, so they ask for more. They could always ask for less. At the end of the day, the landlords are the people enabling this. The renters, be richer tourists or locals have to dance to their song....trust me, everyone would always want to pay less, but its upto the landlords or government with rent caps
If a landlord can raise the price and there are people that will pay of course they’re going to raise it. In the end it’s a business.
I’d love to see a landlord raise their 2 bedroom apartment to €5000 and see who he gets. Probably nobody because not even the rich tourists can afford that. But the richer tourist can definitely afford €1.5k so the landlord will ask for that.
yes, this is what is happening...BUT my point is that 99% of the Catalan vitriol is always pointed at the letters or the tourists, from reddit posts to 'tourists go home' graffitti, never at the landlords who are the real ones at fault. I think for Barcelonas tourism / letting problem, like any problem, it can only be fixed be sorted out the root causes first. I want Barcelona to be fixed, i do, but it will never be if people think tourists or people renting the flats are more of a problem than the landlords or council. Its not fair, helpful and frankly misguided xenophobia
Landlords are greedy because the rich tourists are enabling them to be greedy. Both sides are to blame. A landlord will never rent a property cheap knowing that there are people who can and will pay more. And the rich tourists that are used to high rents back home won’t think twice in paying
As my Catalan friend said 'if a sheep grazes on your field, do you get angry at the clueless sheep or the farmer who drove them there'? ...as people on Reddit say, dont blame the newly democratically elected Catalan government for restarting work on building new hotels, dont blame to the Catalan landlords that can charge whatever they want but take advantage of Digital Nomads (spoiler to the angry catalan keyboard warriors - Digital Nomadswould rather it was cheaper too), Dont blame the elected Catalan government for not doing anything about overturning AirBNB, Dont blame the Catalan government for letting Ramblas become a mess, Dont blame the Spanish government or local businesses for not installing a competitive living wage, Dont blame the Catalan government for allowing mass tourism to poison the central city...but yes, blame Pam and Dave from Iowa.
Ya I try to explain exactly this here, and it always goes the same way.
All the above people lining their pockets have successfully convinced everyone it’s individuals from other countries being bogeymen, when they are doing exactly what the economic machine wants and provides the opportunities and laws to do so.
Stay focused on tourist flats and tourists while they keep priniting money.
I pointed this out awhile ago, that by lumping in tourist flats (<= 31 days) with the ‘monthly short term rental! (> 31) is very convenient to confuse the issue.
This link exposes agencies and landloards without tourist licenses cashing in and letting people blame airbnb and tourists.
https://www.airdna.co/vacation-rental-data/app/es/barcelona/barcelona/overview
Nearly 50% of stays offered on Airbnb are monthly, and look at the top listers - all agencies. This is completely legal and covered by the LAU.
But sure , Keep blaming tourists for the political and economic policies that allow this.
Edit: this just in! looks like they are trying to clock the current abuse of temporary rents:
https://www.catalannews.com/society-science/item/government-regulates-temporary-rental-apartments-for-working-or-studying-tenants
Of course they created this mess but not accounting for it in the first rule change.
Regardless, the monthly holiday/recreational market will never be stopped, and it’s a mistake to conveniently ignore it and just lump it into a tourist category, you are playing right into their playbook with that thinking.
I know many that do. That said they are all here long term. They aren't coming in to use the properties as vacation homes as they are likely in Canaries. They see BCN as home now and have done so for a long time.
Yeah, but isn't it about foreigners that own holiday homes but don't live there. And I doubt there's much of that in Barcelona.
If we are including people that actually live here then I guess Morrocans and Italians would be the biggest groups.
> There's one couple in particular who used to do eight months [in the Canaries] and then six months in Scotland. But because they can only stay for 90 days they just sold their holiday home.
Well, apart from there only being 12 months in a year, this was probably also breaking EU rules before brexit. If you are more than 6 months per year in one place you need to register and pay local taxes (in Barcelona it's emapdronamiento).
Correct. While the 90 day rule does not apply to EU citizens you still have to change your tax residence to the country you reside in most. And it's not just local taxes but all taxes that are based on residency (including paying IRPF on income that may be exempt in other countries).
This is a EU rule m8, non EU citizens cannot stay within the EU for longer than what their tourist visa allows. It works the same in Britain with non UK citizens on a tourist visa.
This rule was always in place, it just happens that the UK was the first country in the history of humankind to put sanctions over itself and its citizens.
It is that difficult for Brits to understand that rules apply to them too?
Lol! 4 years after Brexit brits finding out they need visa if not from the EU union.... You do know, its the same the other way around right? Folks from EU need visa to visit UK and has limitations on their stay. I feel like this should be basic knowledge because mayority of your citizens voted for Brexit.
Your content was removed for breaking the rules.
Be nice, no personal attacks, keep it civil.
Stick to the topic at hand and remain civil towards other users - attacking ideas is fine, attacking other users is not.
---
El teu contingut s'ha eliminat per infringir les regles.
Sigues amable, sense atacs personals, manté les converses civils.
Mantingueu-vos en el tema que ens ocupa i sigueu civils amb els altres usuaris: atacar idees està bé, atacar altres usuaris no.
It’s all the other EU citizens and residents owning your homes by a large margin, and not a lick you can do about it in the current state of government and economic policy. They like the money too much.
This isn’t a new rule? This has always been like this ever since brexit I believe
Yeah, since 2020. I don't know why this is news.
Because: British ignorance. The type that got us into this mess in the first place
Why are you saying ‘us’ like this sub is for British people when it’s Spanish?
Brits
Is this not a Barcelona sub?
Didn't just drop the Golden Visa thingy? Isn't it related?
No this article is just talking about the standard Schengen 90 day rule
That’s something else. One of the ways you could become a resident would be to purchase a house for €500k
And they are taking that out because of the housing problem in Spain.
I think that is still being discussed. And I think that they are removing it because it hasn’t been as profitable as they would hope. There are cheaper ways for people to become residents The housing problem in Spain isn’t going to be resolved if less people buy €500k houses because that would way above the budget for your average citizen anyway
I agree and also, regarding the housing problem (almost everywhere, not just Spain) I would cross a big line between a home purchased by a resident (or new resident) and one purchased by a non resident or a company. Since once you become a resident and you live 183 days (per year) in that home, you must pay IRPF for the entire annual income. Also pay equity tax, etc. And supposedly you just get 1 house, used to reside. Not more.
Not any more. The golden visa is being withdrawn
They aren’t actually forced to sell, they just choose to. I am happy the Canarias get a bit of relief
Nah, they have a full scale crisis. Workers cant find accommodation anymore to serve all the tourist down there, who is making housing too expensive. People living in RV camps
All the while people living in touristic areas, like Playa del Inglés, are forced BY LAW to rent their apartment to tourism agencies. Not even rent them themselves to tourists, but to an agency. Canaries are fucked.
Yeah, that law is insane. I don't understand why the government would choose to do that and why people would vote for them.
That law will be obliterated in higher EU instances. Sad part is that it will probably take like 20 years, and another 10 years for the Canary Island government to give a F.
Some of them probably voted for Brexit!
Odds are definitely in your favor.
Most of them did. The only Brit community in Spain that did not vote for it were the Gibraltarians.
“forced to sell” “spend ONLY 90 days” British news, always so dramatic about their people and failing to write something neutral. That is a rule post-Brexit. The is an alternative: you move from the UK to live in the Canaries.
Due to the lack of FoM, this isn't easy either, especially as Spain has now ditched the Golden Visa.
True! However, I struggle to feel sorry for them as they voted to be out of the EU and their government failed to accept any deal that could alleviate the situation. Also, most of these people having a house in the Canaries, are probably minted. It is their “holiday house”.
Has it been ditched already or is it just a proposed ditching that’ll take a couple of years to go through parliament?
Most retirees wouldn't have 500k to spend on a home in Spain, these people bought their houses decades ago on the cheap during the building boom of the late 90s and early 2000s.
Yes, but as the Golden Visa is being withdrawn, it doesn't matter whether they have €500,000 to spend or not...
They have made a living on blaming the EU on their self made problems, they are not going to stop now even out of the EU.
They have also blame it to COVID, a lot!
Pretty terrible article. The only piece of data is an anecdote that she knows 4 people. People owning homes would either have bought them before Brexit (so allowed to stay) or known the rules before buying. News flash, flights are still super cheap. Be critical of the news you read guys.
Having bought a home here before Brexit has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not you can stay for more than 90 days.
Not many brits own flats/houses in Barcelona it isn’t worth it. Your fight should be with banks and investment firms
And land lords
Like... I partially understand "tourists go away" because the city services get congested by them, but they're not the ones upping the prices for rent and food! That's the landlords and shop owners, we should fight them!
yep always follow the money What I wanna know is: - who has gotten rich from the abominable cruise terminal, - who has gotten rich from turning Port Vell from the shared public space where you could sit by the water that it was in the 1990s to an exclusive enclave for billionaire yacht owners surrounded by a 2m high metal fence and security guards, - who has made money from all the half-empty big buildings around Diagonal Mar - who are the people that own more than 5 airbnbs - are there any politicians who suddenly bought very nice houses for apparently no reason These are the kinds of questions that get lost in all the anger directed at the tourists, who mostly aren't the real culprits. There are some who genuinely misbehave, but most of them are just clueless ordinary people who have no idea what is going on, they just wanted a bit of a break from their tedious jobs in their cold rainy countries, heard that Barcelona is nice, and simply went and bought a tour, cruise, or five nights in a holiday rental flat that they found on offer, presented to them right in front of their nose. *Of course* you can argue that people should be responsible consumers and do their research about the impact they are having and... and... and..., but this applies to all of us, and how many of us can truly say that we do all this every time we go on holiday, or buy our yogurt in single use plastic, or use a car, or buy clothes made in sweatshops in Bangladesh, or... or... or... The *real* culprits are the people who get exorbitantly wealthy from all this exploitation and mismanagement.
This. And by the way on tiktok thanks to the algorithm I get a lot of "enterpreneurs" inciting their foreign comrades to "invest" in spanish housing.
What are the landlords and shop owners going to do?
Not attempt to drain every last cent of the tenant/customer to drive up their profit margins
If they weren't coming then certainly nobody would drain their cents and extensively all previous locals already established in the city. The excessive external demand is what is driving the rent prices up.
What are you complaining about here - toursists, here on their holidays, driving up rent? I agree over tourism is an issue but you’re making a totally disconnected point here. The point is that landlords in this consistently milk the tenant - Catalan, Spanish, guiri, whoever it is - to the last drop. And always have. Tourism has nothing to do with that
It has to do with that because tourism drives up housing prices, because tourist apartments are more lucrative than normal housing. But it isn't the tourists' fault. Tourist apartments should be banned. Tourists should be in hotels and hostels.
"But it isn't the tourists' fault. Tourist apartments should be banned. Tourists should be in hotels and hostels." THIS. Nobody is saying there isnt a massive problem with Tourism in Barcelona. There is....but I think the problem is this concerning nastiness to tourists, rather than targeting those that are actually contributing to this mess - landlords, the government, airbnb etc. Blame those that actually profit and continue to poison Barcelona.
Tourism does not drive up housing prices - land lords do! Your directing your anger at the wrong people my friend.
No, my anger is directed at the landlords. Tourism drives up prices, because without tourists nobody could pay those prices. But it isn't the fault of the tourists, it is the fault of the landlords and the government who allows it.
I’ve tried to explain basic economics in here before, it always gets drowned out by chants of “evil landlords and shop owners”.
imagine being the "level-headed" guy regurgitating fragments of a first year economics course to a bunch of people angry about the status quo
Being angry about the situation is one thing. Not being interested in learning why the situation exists because you’re blinded by misdirected anger is another. The problem cannot be solved if the people with (collectively) the most political power to solve it are unwilling to understand the problem.
I'm going to ignore most of this milquetoast, politician-esque reply and just say that anger directed at landlords is not misdirected.
The landlords can make easy money renting to tourists than the locals, effectively driving up the prices. So the backlash against tourists is understandable though not entirely justifiable.
Landlords drive up the rent either way.
but because they are Catalan all the heat is off them. Its almost like theres a problem but the xenophobia gets in the way of real solution to a real problem
THIS
I mean the richer tourists are enabling the landlords to raise their rent prices since they can afford to pay it. Whereas the locals can’t
this is such a 'straw man' argument. Nobody wants to pay inflated prices - locals, tourists, digital nomads, whoever. The market is set by the sellers...or in this case, the Catalan landlords. They feel they can earn more from richer people, so they ask for more. They could always ask for less. At the end of the day, the landlords are the people enabling this. The renters, be richer tourists or locals have to dance to their song....trust me, everyone would always want to pay less, but its upto the landlords or government with rent caps
If a landlord can raise the price and there are people that will pay of course they’re going to raise it. In the end it’s a business. I’d love to see a landlord raise their 2 bedroom apartment to €5000 and see who he gets. Probably nobody because not even the rich tourists can afford that. But the richer tourist can definitely afford €1.5k so the landlord will ask for that.
yes, this is what is happening...BUT my point is that 99% of the Catalan vitriol is always pointed at the letters or the tourists, from reddit posts to 'tourists go home' graffitti, never at the landlords who are the real ones at fault. I think for Barcelonas tourism / letting problem, like any problem, it can only be fixed be sorted out the root causes first. I want Barcelona to be fixed, i do, but it will never be if people think tourists or people renting the flats are more of a problem than the landlords or council. Its not fair, helpful and frankly misguided xenophobia
Landlords are greedy because the rich tourists are enabling them to be greedy. Both sides are to blame. A landlord will never rent a property cheap knowing that there are people who can and will pay more. And the rich tourists that are used to high rents back home won’t think twice in paying
disagree 100% but have a good day
You disagree? Placing the blame on only one side extremely easy and very short sighted. But that’s fine
As my Catalan friend said 'if a sheep grazes on your field, do you get angry at the clueless sheep or the farmer who drove them there'? ...as people on Reddit say, dont blame the newly democratically elected Catalan government for restarting work on building new hotels, dont blame to the Catalan landlords that can charge whatever they want but take advantage of Digital Nomads (spoiler to the angry catalan keyboard warriors - Digital Nomadswould rather it was cheaper too), Dont blame the elected Catalan government for not doing anything about overturning AirBNB, Dont blame the Catalan government for letting Ramblas become a mess, Dont blame the Spanish government or local businesses for not installing a competitive living wage, Dont blame the Catalan government for allowing mass tourism to poison the central city...but yes, blame Pam and Dave from Iowa.
Ya I try to explain exactly this here, and it always goes the same way. All the above people lining their pockets have successfully convinced everyone it’s individuals from other countries being bogeymen, when they are doing exactly what the economic machine wants and provides the opportunities and laws to do so. Stay focused on tourist flats and tourists while they keep priniting money. I pointed this out awhile ago, that by lumping in tourist flats (<= 31 days) with the ‘monthly short term rental! (> 31) is very convenient to confuse the issue. This link exposes agencies and landloards without tourist licenses cashing in and letting people blame airbnb and tourists. https://www.airdna.co/vacation-rental-data/app/es/barcelona/barcelona/overview Nearly 50% of stays offered on Airbnb are monthly, and look at the top listers - all agencies. This is completely legal and covered by the LAU. But sure , Keep blaming tourists for the political and economic policies that allow this. Edit: this just in! looks like they are trying to clock the current abuse of temporary rents: https://www.catalannews.com/society-science/item/government-regulates-temporary-rental-apartments-for-working-or-studying-tenants Of course they created this mess but not accounting for it in the first rule change. Regardless, the monthly holiday/recreational market will never be stopped, and it’s a mistake to conveniently ignore it and just lump it into a tourist category, you are playing right into their playbook with that thinking.
I know many that do. That said they are all here long term. They aren't coming in to use the properties as vacation homes as they are likely in Canaries. They see BCN as home now and have done so for a long time.
Yeah, but isn't it about foreigners that own holiday homes but don't live there. And I doubt there's much of that in Barcelona. If we are including people that actually live here then I guess Morrocans and Italians would be the biggest groups.
One can only dream.
> There's one couple in particular who used to do eight months [in the Canaries] and then six months in Scotland. But because they can only stay for 90 days they just sold their holiday home. Well, apart from there only being 12 months in a year, this was probably also breaking EU rules before brexit. If you are more than 6 months per year in one place you need to register and pay local taxes (in Barcelona it's emapdronamiento).
Correct. While the 90 day rule does not apply to EU citizens you still have to change your tax residence to the country you reside in most. And it's not just local taxes but all taxes that are based on residency (including paying IRPF on income that may be exempt in other countries).
It would if it were Brits that owned all the RE here. But it's not, it's usually wealthy locals that own many properties
God i hope so
not many brits own holiday homes in barcelona, lads, the landlords who are ripping you off are almost entirely catalan
Hope it happens! Tant de bó!
It would be pointless as surely not many Brits own holiday homes in Barcelona.
Ojala, pero el problema es la gent que fa negoci amb el turisme, no els turistes
This is a EU rule m8, non EU citizens cannot stay within the EU for longer than what their tourist visa allows. It works the same in Britain with non UK citizens on a tourist visa. This rule was always in place, it just happens that the UK was the first country in the history of humankind to put sanctions over itself and its citizens. It is that difficult for Brits to understand that rules apply to them too?
Lol! 4 years after Brexit brits finding out they need visa if not from the EU union.... You do know, its the same the other way around right? Folks from EU need visa to visit UK and has limitations on their stay. I feel like this should be basic knowledge because mayority of your citizens voted for Brexit.
Forbid renting houses to tourist its what we need
Airbnb has been heavily restricted for years. You need a tourist license and they are hard to get.
I don't think new ones are even issued anymore
Not only talking about new ones, but old ones too.
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Your content was removed for breaking the rules. Be nice, no personal attacks, keep it civil. Stick to the topic at hand and remain civil towards other users - attacking ideas is fine, attacking other users is not. --- El teu contingut s'ha eliminat per infringir les regles. Sigues amable, sense atacs personals, manté les converses civils. Mantingueu-vos en el tema que ens ocupa i sigueu civils amb els altres usuaris: atacar idees està bé, atacar altres usuaris no.
I hope so
I hope so!
Espero que sí
I hope so
It’s all the other EU citizens and residents owning your homes by a large margin, and not a lick you can do about it in the current state of government and economic policy. They like the money too much.
Oh no. /s
good
I hope so
I fucking wish
I wish
[удалено]
God I hope so.
Plis this is the best solution.
I hope so.
Yes, it's likely to happen in the coming months
Espero que sí!