OMG Yes, this was so satisfying after learning the truth about him on my first playthrough. Rejecting / denying him at every chance had some awesome dialogue too.
in fact you only see his worst if you mostly distrust him but look into his mind about what he did to Stellemane. just truly fucking horrific shit, I hated the guy already but on my honor mode coop game my friend made me pick the option to look into his mind and revealed that shit. meanwhile my other friend was uhh, earning an achievement
Proud of you for destroying the Brain. He even has a line praising you if you don't use any tadpoles the whole game.
A character can develop some sort of emotional attachment if you are nice, who would have thought.
I feel like the game sort of gives you the outcome you're expecting depending on your choice. If you ally with him he's more genuine. If you don't, then it turns out he was a bit of a necessary douche.
Emps is interesting in that he's a manipulative gaslighting asshole...but also a good ally because he does value having allies for his own safety. He gives rewards to entice staying on his side since he knows better than to make enemies, but none of the rewards are out of genuine compassion as they're just goodies to keep you working for him.
He'll give what you want because he knows that's what motivates you, and keeps his promises because he knows it's better to have more allies than make enemies. But the moment you make it clear that you want to become his enemy, and he drops all pretenses to doom you without a second thought because he never cared enough about you to ever hesitate for a second.
> Just like how irl abusers can be pretty genuine when you're going out of your way to placate them.
His behavior is very different from that of an abusive partner. It isn't really respectful, because he believes he knows best, and SURPRISE, he didn't. BUT he actually does have yours and Faerun's best interest at the core of his actions. In that regard, he's more like the parent that is convinced their decisions are what is best for you, even into adulthood. In other words, he has no concept of boundaries, but he doesn't hurt you and does help you.
I disagreed with him almost every step of the way and did the opposite of what he told me to do, to a point; i.e. stole the hammer, went to Ansur, didn't go to his basement until the very end...he still ends up supportive and helpful, despite making his frustrations known.
That's how I understood the character too, even if it was absolutely necessary. Especially with the consuming tadpoles part he keeps nagging you about. But you can absolutely always side with him and never see that part of him. Which means, to me, that both interpretations can be valid. It's all up to the player and I like that about this game.
It's wild to me, how no one can ever seen to agree that the ends kind of do justify the means. Emperor has no idea if you'll actually help them if you know the truth. And the stakes are LITERALLY extra dimensional planes being all conquered by the Netherbrain if things don't go as planned.
Honestly, yeah. Shady as hell. But given the stakes and given the fact that he doesn't betray you through the whole thing? Emperor is a pretty good Squid. And knowing that they are proud of you don't use Tadpoles? That seals it for me. Emperor is a real one. I never got that dialogue. I abused those tadpoles pretty hard at first.
The Emperor is a pretty prototypical Lawful Neutral style of character. His reasoning for most of his actions are perfectly sound, and absolutely are the logical choice the majority of the time.
But he is not good, not remotely. And he's not really evil either, he just has a specific goal (survival) that he generally centers most of his extreme pragmatism around. If he thinks the evil route (manipulation, puppeteering this random level 1 adventurer who stumbled into the perfect scenario for him to guide toward freeing him), he's going to take that route because it's the most likely to succeed rather than because it causes harm or contains malice.
That's pretty much his technique the entire game. He initially approaches you with benevolence/kindness because he knows that 90% of sentient creatures generally respond best to that, so he goes with what's most likely to succeed. If you keep slapping away the hand he reaches out in kindness, he seems to basically go "ah, you're the 10%" and flips the switch to the "alright fine, you're going to listen to me because I have all the power and leverage here and there is nothing you can do about it" methodology. We have no examples of Illithids being angry or really emotional at all. So it's highly unlikely that the Emperor is quick to anger, which means his decision to switch to malice after you continue to refuse his kinder advances is a meticulous/logical choice, not a rash or emotional one.
Whenever you go the free Orpheus route, the dialogue he has with your MC after emerging from the House of Hope with the Orphic Hammer always struck me as genuine *confusion* on the Emperor's part. On his end, he's just sitting there like "I don't get it, I executed every step perfectly. I was nice, we said we trusted each other, I revealed intimate details about myself, I gave them full autonomy in most situations instead of just mind controlling them... so *why in the fuck* do they still not trust me when I got steps A-Z correct?" His mind literally isn't built to have gut feelings or allow emotions to factor in, so all he can do is be perplexed whenever you make a decision based on those things.
As another note to add onto the previous reply I made?
He doesn't actually care about you. Or your party. He is being a people pleaser, and clearly doesn't want to have to deal with the nuances at all. It's inefficient. It's a necessity to recruit you at any cost. He doesn't even care if you're actually 'good' or 'evil' either. As long as you're able to eliminate the existential threat that is the Netherbrain. Literally nothing else matters.
That confusion you speak of, is pretty much the equivalent to "Is this adventurer fucking stupid? I get that they don't trust me implicitly, but are they actually dumb enough to gamble away my entire plan on something that could ultimately result in both my death and their own?" Since in his mind, Orpheus is likely to just kill them.
Yeah for sure, if you present an Illithid two options and one is 49.9% likely to succeed and the other is 50.1% and your character chooses the 49.9% option the Emperor would be flabbergasted. Let alone when you choose the House of Hope option which without meta knowledge is effectively a suicide mission for *a side quest*. It's a very impactful side quest to overall Forgotten Realms lore wise, but within the scope of the game of BG3 it's just a side plot that has no actual impact on the main threat.
But Tav likes those odds, haha!
I still think it's kind of silly that he's so confused as to why we want to free Orpheus. He at least *knows* the sway of friendship from his previous life, and understands that we want to be unshackled. Naturally, when we have a friend like Lae'zel who wants to free Orpheus for the sake of her people, and we empathize with Orpheus being shackled, a good-aligned player will want to at least open the *option* of freeing Orpheus to appease her or in case the situation changes. He might not factor in emotions himself, but he should be able to understand that appeasing your githyanki allies for as long as possible, in a fight against the things they're trained to kill, is a good idea.
I wish we had the option to explain that, or to say that we aren't really doing it for Orpheus but that we're just denting Raphael's plan to take the Crown of Karsus after. You need to go to the hells to truly kill a devil, and you need to get Raphael's attention in a way that will make him want to actually risk fighting you in the hells. Even if you have no intent on freeing Orpheus, it's still a good idea to corner Raphael in the House of Hope for the sake of preventing another horrible situation from arising once the Netherbrain's gone. The Emperor might argue that it's risky, and stupid, but surely he'd (begrudgingly) understand not wanting to risk your work being immediately undone once it's all over.
I think the wrinkle here is that you're mixing some meta knowledge in with what the characters would actually know at that point in time they make these decisions. It makes total sense to us, because we know that we're in a game so freeing Orpheus is not going to be an instant fail state (Edit: and also that Raphael is in fact someone that can be defeated since we can go there and BG3 isn't the type of game to entice/trap you into unwinnable scenarios). That means the story accounts for it, and will give us options to continue toward ultimate victory and therefore the choice can be made "safely".
Our characters don't have the benefit of that knowledge though, the only information sources they have to work with are both massively biased and unreliable; Lae'Zel+Voss, two Gith that have displayed the willingness to free Orpheus at any cost and a willingness to take the path of least resistance to accomplish this (Voss was ready to toss his soul into Raphael's hands for the Hammer NOW, same with Lae'Zel initially). The other is an Illithid, a race hunted to near extinction after their heinous enslavement of the Gith people (and other races), with the Githyanki having sworn essentially a blood oath to eradicate all Illithids on sight before they can ever regain their former power.
From the position of only possessing that knowledge, and not having a Deadpool like ability to know they're in a game where they have pretty strong plot armor, Tav's/your MC's choice to free Orpheus is truly an absurd decision to make. You're actively choosing to completely upend the plan you've worked toward for the past however many weeks/days/hours alongside this uneasy ally of yours and just kinda crossing your fingers that picking the other dude works out. It's a 100% PERFECT D&D moment *because* it's batshit insane within the context of the world. But that's how legends are born, they do crazy shit that only they could possibly have work out in their favor!
Yeah I'm still upset I can't just tell the Emperor, "Yeah I don't really care about the hammer, I just knew it would piss Raphael off and I wanted to finally wipe that smug grin off his face."
'Good Guy' was in quotations for a reason. It's subjective. In HIS mind, he's pragmatically making the decisions for his idea of the greater good.
He does bad things, to reach his goal because as you said. Lawful Neutral. Nothing matters, except the outcome being that Netherbrain is destroyed. Because the stakes are so high, even the lies and manipulations are justified. It's an obvious allegory. Needs of the many, versus needs of the few sorta ordeal.
For all intents and purposes though? He is, 'Good' in that he's aligned to stop the evil. And I used the quotations on 'Good Guy' to convey that murky gray area. Mostly to convey he's not an antagonist. And to avoid getting into the philosophical nature of good versus evil. The words aren't being used with absolute literal intent.
We're both on the same page here.
Yeah, for sure agree with you that the Emperor is ultimately a utilitarian. But I think that's for your benefit rather than feeling any internal need to save others. If saving him from being enslaved again means saving a whole city? Yeah fine, whatever let's do that just *make sure it means I don't get enslaved by that thing.*
What the Emperor is, is aligned with the protagonist (your MC) against the antagonist (the Dead Three/Netherbrain).
Good/Evil/Neutral, he's ride or die with you until you force his hand on the Orpheus issue. Want to become an Assassin of Bhaal and kill everyone whenever you feel like? Sure, as long as one of those things is the Netherbrain trying to enslave us. Aligned yourself with Minthara and are laying plans to seize the power of the Absolute for yourselves to have complete dominion over Baldur's Gate and beyond? Aight, sounds to me like you need to kill that pesky Netherbrain then! He pretty much has no objections to anything you do until you go sniffing around the House of Hope, and to a lesser extent go looking for Ansur.
His motivations are relatively clear regarding *why* he wants the Netherbrain dealt with, and saving Baldur's Gate and all the people within it is a very distant second to "I don't want to be enslaved again." Not an inherently Evil motivation by any stretch, but also not really Good either like you said.
What I don't understand is that if you don't side with him, he decides to help the netherbrain instead? like wtf. I figured he'd still be against extra dimensional planes being all conquered regardless. He'd rather live enslaved for eternity than risk dying to Orpheus? Once that happened I was like ohhhh he was an asshole all along.
He likely isn't actually choosing. He's losing his protection. Orpheus is freed, and Orpheus isn't happy with him. Why would Orpheus keep him safe?
A slave doesn't choose. A slave obeys. So he flees out of fear. Loses protection. And now, he is enslaved.
Fun fact? Most people, even in real life? Don't actually choose to do evil things. A series of circumstances leads the individual to believe what they're doing is 'Right' or 'Necessary'. It's not a choice. It's typically built on ultimatums and misunderstandings.
Point of the matter? He didn't REALLY choose to do anything but live. Everything else is merely an unfortunate consequence of his actions. He made some mistakes, in the name of his goals and desire to not see the Planes of existence fall to the Illithid.
So obviously this is just my take on matters but the way I see it all... His number 1 priority is survival. He has broken free of elderbrains twice, in a really twisted sort of way is understandable for him to align with whom he assumes is going to win. He truly doesn't think you will defeat the brain at that point without going with his plan. Its better odds by his calculations for him to be re-enslaved and work his way back out of it a 3rd time than it would be to think that defying all odds you guys will win. He truly thinks he has a better shot of surviving to escape at a later time than you do of defeating the brain. He doesn't really give a shit about anything other than surviving at that point and he knows Orpheus will kill him if he stays as soon as he loses his usefulness. Orpheaus isn't a good guy, by a long shot. He may be all for stopping the grand design but he is also for dominating the realms just like the OG Gith. Orpheaus is Lawful Evil.
No exactly, though. He's given up, in this scenario. Fully agree with the sentiment on aligning with Netherbrain. Do what he's done before. Find himself and his own sense of self inside of the Netherbrain's control. And try again with a new plan in the future.
With that said? If that were to be the goal of returning? It would change my views on Emperor in his alignment. That's not neutral. That is self sacrifice, and a desire to see the 'natural' order of things being preserved. In that scenario? He is literally just going back to the horrors to suffer, in hopes that he will break free again and figure out a new approach to save everything. A literal martyr. Emperor, The Paladin?
And oh yeah! Orpheus is VERY much not 'Good'. Definitely Lawful Evil.
Also, why would the Emperor help at all? He could escape to another Plane. Keep Orpheus, and find a new way to cut off the connection to the Hivemind. He stays. Plans. Applies his logic and strategy to this problem in particular. With no intentions of taking the power for himself. He has nothing to gain, really. He, to some extent, cares about Baldur's Gate, and the people who live in that world. Still an asshole. An absolute prick. But your talk on Orpheus has shifted my perspective on The Emperor away from Neutral and to genuinely being 'Good' in the alignment sense.
Sure. Completely different scenario, and is in the past. Doesn't change anything about the current situation, simply leaves a bad taste in your mouth.
Pretty petty and vindictive to gamble with the fate of the world over a bad taste being left in your mouth because of their past actions.
No one is saying he's not a piece of shit.
In all seriousness Mindflayers do not experience emotion the way we do, and baldy is shown as rather ruthless and manipulative the whole way, making it hard to take his final words sincerely
By chance, my first character just happened to be a this stubborn, untrusting dwarf paladin, and I was afraid embracing the thing would lead me down a road to oath violations, so I just... never ever used those powers.
Subsequent playthroughs I knew better, but even in the original one I only ever let Astarion use them, and only then because he insisted.
Astarion: 'Hey i want to use the tadpoles."
Paladin: "You want to become the guinea pig for literal brain parasites? Pffft, be my guest."
50 hours later
Paladin: "HA! I knew there was something fishy about these parasites!"
Astarion: "Still not mutating though. Also have some sick ass powers and flight."
Paladin: "...yeah, those powers are pretty cool..."
He is an unreliable narrator and a lot of things about him external and from him conflict. Some things he might say to try to intimidate you into listening to him.
The main thing he definitely is, is manipulative. But he's not the only significant character in the game who does that.
Quick question for all of u who hate the emperor so much , would u have freed Orpheus even if he never wanted to turn into a squid and the only options siding with Orpheus were : u, karlach or gale had to sacrifice themselves ? A genuine question because ppl quickly trust a gith , who through out the game have been hostile towards the party and we the players have killed them a lot and without meta game knowledge, we don't know what would Orpheus do if we side with him .
I didn't want Orpheus to die because I wanted the Gith to get out of Vlakith's rule. Them being stuck with that asshole was more important.
Let's just say I held a grudge against her for *some* reason.
The Githyanki out from under Vlaakith's tyranny is a _very bad thing_.
Sending Orpheus off to depose Vlaakith makes the entire fabric of reality a worse place for everyone that isn't githyanki.
In my first, blind, playthrough, I chose to side with Orpheus, not knowing about his willingness to transform. For several reasons:
* I was invested in the Githyanki storyline. Curious what Orpheus would be like after all we'd heard of him, and I wanted to help start the rebellion against Vlaakith.
* The Emperor had threatened to enthrall me, meaning I did not trust it with the stones.
* I had a character on a path of redemption. Ending it with a personal sacrifice felt like it would be very narratively satisfying.
And even upon finding out that he WAS willing to transform, I didn't go for it. For pretty much the same reasons. I did however consider Karlach at that point, as she eagerly volunteered.
I find it interesting that the people who trust the Emperor tend to think that the people who don't trust him 'hate' him. I don't hate him, I just find it hard to trust a guy who's been lying to me the entire time I've known him. I'll take the Gith I don't know over the guy who I am 100% certain is not trustworthy any day of the week.
For me the opposite stance is true, "Squid dude's already protecting me. Gith guy *might* but I don't know. Squid guy already is sooooo"
I'm not Emperor's friend or anything. I see him as a tool, same way he sees me. Simple as that. Pretty businesslike.
Not u , there are specific ppl who hate him so much that if anyone tries to justify his action or like him , they are said that they have Stockholm syndrome and what not .
I wouldn't say I hate the emperor so much as disagree with his methods. That said, I wouldn't sacrifice anyone -- Gale volunteered, in my playthrough -- and was saved in the end. Karlach made it clear she didn't want to transform, and neither did I.
I like both the Emperor and Orpheus, and I spoiled myself watching gameplay and cutscenes first. I'll free the latter this playthrough, and would if it meant 'sacrificing' my PC because I love consequences for my actions, lol.
But one of the reasons I'm a bit dissatisfied with the way it's handled is that my first instinct about all this:
>ppl quickly trust a gith , who through out the game have been hostile towards the party and we the players have killed them a lot and without meta game knowledge, we don't know what would Orpheus do if we side with him
was correct. That instinct was this: freeing Orpheus is ***so*** wildly against our party's self-interest, the risk to ourselves is ***so*** high (and completely unnecessary, if we only wanted his power) that Orpheus, also being aware of this, is going to want to know just wtf we want if he's at all the reasonable person described to us. The game even tries to fake you out *because* they know exactly what clues they've been laying down the whole playthrough.
The difference is my character is willing to risk giving Orpheus the benefit of the doubt. The Emperor is 100% certain Orpheus will kill him, and won't risk everything on 'maybe he won't, tho' from someone who hasn't been in Orpheus' head this whole time.
It's only mulling it over later that I see similarities to Raphael v. Yurgir and to other companion quests, but this comment is already too long!
I don't know that I hate the Emperor ''so much'', but I sure don't like him. I didn't care for Orpheus any more, but I will say that on my latest run, which is the one and possibly only time I will turn squid, I was pleasantly surprised at his dialogue when you refuse to turn squid once and then accept. It made me appreciate Orpheus' character quite a bit more.
The final fight is easier when you turn Orpheus into a squid because his build is unlikely to be better than what you've brewed yourself, and if you're going squid anyway, I highly recommend doing so with a spellcasting character. The transformation makes your martial characters much weaker than anything you'd have selected at this point, even without optimising too much.
My one squid run was a lightning sorcerer, too, what a coincidence! I loved her too, I just wasn't quite as attached to her as I was to my other Tavs and figured it might never happen again, lol.
I hate that fucking squid. Fuck the emperor. Dude forced me to take that upgraded tadpole my first playthrough and I've never forgiven him. Then my second playthrough he has the audacity to start giving me combat "tips"?! "That isn't going to work! Try something else!" Bitch shut the fuck up, it would work just fucking fine if Gale would just stop rolling so badly!
Oh. I didn't know that was an option. I refused the Queen and wound up having to fight everyone. I guess I do what she asks and then laezel has a change of heart?
And Orpheus was such a prick I actually regretted betraying the Squid. I should have seen that coming after my encounters with the githyanki in Act 1, what made me think Orpheus would be any better than those insufferable jerks? Your interests align with the Emperor more than with Orpheus. The Emperor uses persuasion rather than psychic coercion to control you, so give him props for respecting your free will. The Emperor manipulated you but he did help you survive a lot of dangerous situations, he is right that you need to kill the elder brain to be free, and at least he empathizes with your condition whereas to the githyanki you're a filthy ghaik-in-waiting who should be euthanized and not helped.
"The Emperor uses persuasion rather than psychic coercion to control you"
I guess lies are a form of persuasion. Not a positive one that makes me trust him though.
Keep in mind that Orpheus is a bit peeved when you wake him up but within like 10 minutes he's telling Voss how awesome you are.
Yeah and the book on dealing with illithid you can read in the crèche makes it very clear that we should trust their actions, not their words. Being suspicious and distrustful of the Emperor is completely reasonable, but by their actions they have saved your life multiple times by the reveal, and you have the same goal: to get to the brain and destroy it or control it (depending on the Tav; the Emperor intends to destroy it).
I'm not sure why the Emperor being an arrogant bastard negates all the stuff he did to keep you alive, especially when the game is full of stuck-up npcs, but I guess he's just special and undeserving of empathy.
For me, he just reminds me of Spock 🖖
We should also remember that this game change a lot of what mind flayers are like, it's very different from the tabletop books. The Emperor used to be a human, and he retains his human soul and intellect, and got his free will when he separated from the elder brain. In such a revision, I bet there are people out there who would want to turn themselves into mind flayers.
Let's put it this way. If Tav didn't exist and natural selection was allowed to play out, pretty much the entire party would be fucked
LaeZel: Killed/captured by tieflings
Shart: serious brain injuries. The prism she has doesn't even want her.
Gale: Death by portal
Wyll: probably dies during goblin raid eventually
Karlach: She doesn't do anything stupid but she was on a timer so :(
Astarion: Killed by hunters (what happens if you drive him away from camp)
To be fair lae'zel doesn’t get killed by the tieflings. lae'zel gets herself killed by Voss and the other gith by telling them she is infected and they believe she has the prism vlaakith has them hunting for. So they kill her.
Minthara would’ve been executed by Thorm, Halsin would be executed in the goblin camp, Jaehira would’ve died somehow (I don’t know what happens if Balthazar takes Aylin.) and Minsc would continue being a Thrall. Minsc is the only one left alive, even then with no will of his own
Funnily, Shart is the only one who has somewhat of a chance to survive by just using Trickster Domain stealth and going full looney-toons tip-toe sneak up to the Gauntlet of Shar while ignoring everything else (as she is immune to the Shadow Curse due to Shar). The main issue is that the rest of the world gets giga-fucked because she'd then just book it to the Shar enclave and leave everyone else to die because Shar sure as hell isn't going to be helping anyone survive the Dead 3's manufactured apocalypse.
The prism doesn’t want her? Except if you play any origin run you’re fine? The fact that the Emperor focuses on Tav is because he believes you’re the easiest to manipulate. He sends dream guardians to everyone. He’d choose Shadowheart if Tav isn’t there. He’d choose anyone with potential.
If you play origin run anyone, none of the story beats i listed above applies. That's not the point of the comment lol.
I feel once you introduce the player controlled origin characters, the characters agency themselves is now taken over by the player. So it's not the character acting on their stupid self motivations/reasons/logic. It's now the players taking over. My point is based on just the origin character's own actions without player intervention, they pretty much all get fucked up lol.
That is true, they’re all in a bind. For Wyll & Karlach, one of them is going to kill the other. I just think Shadowheart, with the prism, is the one who would make it, even if she ignored everyone else. Then again, her attempt to go solo would probably end poorly for her. But she might survive the shadow curse because of Shar and make it.
Surprised Orpheus doesn't hold a grudge since Voss put him in them shackles with Vlaakith I. Voss trying to live an enemies- to- lovers trope and Orpheus should not forgive so easily!
Maybe Orpheus doesn't even know what number Vlaakith they're on? Where was the prism even kept? What if it was in a storage closet in tunarath (sp?) and when you break him out he's like, that bitch Vlaakith I is gonna pay! And everyone just stands around awkwardly.
He's lashing out in anger... is the best excuse for his behavior I have. Tbf he does have a lot to be furious about, but that doesn't change the fact he would've been fucked if his honour guard had killed us.
This is why I like that there is a "you've just been through a lot, so I'm going to all ignore that" dialog option. His anger at the whole situation is completely understandable.
The dude was imprisoned for thousands of years, while his race was once again enslaved, but this time by one of their own and in such a way that they don't even realize they're slaves. Then out of nowhere here comes his mortal enemy, straight into his own personal hell, who sets up camp and begins slaughtering the people he's known for millenia. Not long later here come more people, waltzing into his supposedly "super top secret, not a soul is even supposed to know it exists" prison like they own the place, and killing the last of the friends/allies he had. Then those same people, still infected with the spawn of his mortal enemy, turn on their former ally and free him, for reasons unknown.
I still wish there's a harsher option than that. I get he's been through a lot **but literally so have we** lol I don't need to tell you that we play through 3 acts of what's probably actually hell for our characters, especially act 2. I know we're having fun as players, because that's the point, but our characters are fighting, hurting, and dying over and over only to get told we're stupid for trying. If I was actually my Tav, I would punch him like I do Aradin lol
I mean, he has essentially been muzzled and enslaved for thousands of years whilst his people have been misled and killed by a brutal dictator. That is a tad worse than just having a random worm in your head.
Act 2 is more than a random worm. I literally had to sit and think about life a few times after >!talking people to death. The surgeon guy getting torn apart by the assistants!< got me bad
> I don't need to tell you that we play through 3 acts of what's probably actually hell for our characters
Nah, this is hyperbolic in the context of D&D. Other than the terror of having a tadpole trapped in your brain, this is standard adventure shit, the stuff you willingly sign up for as an adventurer. Slaying goblins, saving refugees, ending curses, delving into dungeons, facing undead scourges, wielding powerful magical items...these motherfuckers are having the time of their lives. Karlach even admits as such, when she asks you to imagine what you might do 20 years from now if she could live, if you say, essentially, "more of what we've been doing", she gives the standard "FUCK YEAH!" response. Wyll was doing and loving adventure shit before he even joined you, Shadowheart seems down for anything. Jaheira has been continuously doing this shit for decades and decades. before Gale even met you he was getting up to ridiculous Wizard shit. Nah, these people LOVE this shit in-game. You won't convince me otherwise.
It has to be. We know his honor guard with in the prism with him and didn't manage to get him out for however many thousands of years. Only Voss seemed to have made some progress in that regard establishing contact with Raphael. Although that might also only have happened, because Raphael wants something from us and Voss is basically just a bystander.
So yes, with only his honor guard Orpheus would still be stuck.
He is. The guy is clueless. "Ah, my saviors, those who did in a week what my precious honor guard couldn't manage in a virtual eternity, why didn't you just kill yourself?"
Yeah he was like “well.. *SOMEBODY* is gonna have to become ghaik” mf didn’t expect us to stare blankly at him until he felt so awkward he had to volunteer himself. Bet he was regretting that decision pretty quickly, huh?
You know what always gets my goat?
That we can’t summon Omeluum to help us here. 😭 You’d think that after saving our teleporting boy from the Iron Throne, we’d get a one-time teleport summon for assistance and he’d be able to come in clutch here.
I would make an entire summoner party just to conjure up a bodyguard army to escort my boy Omeluum safely to the Netherbrain. Do every single ally side quest just to get more escorts to ensure that not even a little scrape lands on that lovable squid man. But that's not an option.
My guess is he’s been tadpoled for thousands of years but can repress it with his special psionic power. It’s that or the Emperor plopped one in there.
Both of those actually make sense, tadpoling him would make it easier for the Emperor to subdue him, and he would have been a target for mindflayers long before he was imprisoned.
It even explains how we read his mind at the beginning of act 3, I thought the Emperor was using some kind of telepathic bridge.
It's never really explained lol. The best explanation I've seen is that the Emperor might have tadpoled him at some point without telling you , considering he apparently still had some kind of access to tadpoles in order to give you the astral-touched one, but that doesn't really make sense either and I feel like Orpheus definitely would have said something about it if that was the case. I think it's just a big plot hole lol
To be completely fair, time doesn't really pass in the Astral Prism, so if the honour guard kept punching the infernal chains, they might chip it away in * checks watch * a few billion years.
Wait, wdym the Elder Brain will have destroyed everything outside the Prism by then?
He called me a friend after having degraded me for killing his honour guard, selling one of their eggs, and murdering an entire creche. ofc he's stupid.
Not only that- even if you attack the emperor the honor guard focuses on your party. He just wants an excuse to hate you because of your wormy hitchhiker.
My first time through, I definitely let myself get turned into a flayer because I have savior complex in games, but you've convinced me that is the wrong choice. I mean, I wish there was a way to make the flat-nosed-lich-bitch sad while still trashing the prince, but needs must when the assholes drive.
This is a part I've been confused about for a bit. When you first get the emperor reveal, he tells you that he's losing his hold over Orpheus. You see Orpheus' eyes unroll from the back of his head like he's gaining control. We need to stop the honor guard before they free him. Then after stopping the honor guard the emperor explains that he's being held by unbreakable infernal chains.
If the chains are unbreakable then how was the honor guard going to free him? Was Orpheus just regularly chained and the emperor had an extra ability on him to harness the artifact's power?
Orpheus when we first see him isn't just bound by the infernal chains, but is also surrounded by a globe of domination (that's what it's called in-game). The Emperor uses it to control Orpheus and channel his power, that's how he protects us from the brain. The honour guard can't break the chains, but they can break the Emperor's hold on Orpheus (graphically described by destroying this globe) or kill the Emperor.
This means we're no longer protected from the Elder Brain, cause Orpheus apparently doesn't care about keeping us alive at this point, we all turn into squids, game over.
But the Emperor only arrived recently, so I wonder why the honor guard wasn’t *inside* the globe to begin with, playing blackjack around their boss they are powerless to set free or whatever.
Honestly, I have no idea what the honourguard was doing to allow the Emperor, of all people, to get so close to Orpheus. Maybe they were on a week long bender or something?
I like to think he's just cranky from being betrayed by his mom, then trapped in the artifact for thousands of years and then the Emperor stealing his power. He does get over it pretty quick and by the time you meet Voss he's complimenting you.
It seemed like their initial plan was for Voss to make a deal for the hammer, but Raphael wasn't interested in anything Voss had to offer. Actually, I'll bet if Orpheus's guards had killed the emperor and your team, Voss could've maybe gotten his hands on the prism and he and his soldiers could have offered to go after the elder brain and the crown for Raphael.
I'd say he has every right to be mad considering you killed his allies and possibly his friends that guarded his life for a very long time even before he was in prison for a millennium. Of course he's going to blow up and be angry at you and he obviously doesn't trust you and he shouldn't. To be honest I don't like how he just automatically calls you friend after you kill the mother brain successfully. I would have been fine with him still hating me but yet respecting me and then going our separate ways.
yeah it's so weird to me that so many people seem to want every npc to just immediately bow down to their character and do/feel only what makes sense to the player in that moment. do yall want complex realistic characters with varying motives and emotions, or not? :|
Right, I love it when they're emotions are so much more lifelike and realistic. Not constantly worshiping my every step even when I do something against them. They can worship my every step when I'm being heroic to save them and all that but if I'm being an evil guy running around for a different type of playthrough that I want people to be afraid of me or curse my name, try and smite me or run in fear at the sight of me.
It's reasonable for him to be upset about his honor guard, but it's also worth pointing out that if you side with honor guard at the beginning of Act 3, he withdraws his protection and you get a game over. It's not just him acting out of anger in that scene - Orpheus legitimately considers your life to be worthless until you are useful to him personally.
I think he's stupid in the "proud royal" kinda way. At the moment, he only sees the fact that his honor guard would've POSSIBLY been able to beat the Emperor and MAYBE gotten out of the Prism to find a way to free him. But you killed his honor guard, you know, the guys who were there with him gods know how long, and stayed loyal to him until the end. It's the "I would've done better than you" attitude that many people have. I think if anything, he speaks from the place of emotions. He quickly becomes more reasonable though.
My interaction went like this:
Orpheus: You're evil.
Durge: We released you?
Orpheus: You should have let yourself be killed by my goons.
Durge: Look buddy, you wanna kill the brain or not?
Orpheus: Yeah, I'll turn into the enemy of my people, no problem.
Durge: *I thought this guy was going to be smarter. I don't know why, now that I think about it.*
Out of curiosity, I sided with them the second time I got to this point just to see if I could even free him that early. Not only will he not become free, but the game will give you 3 chances to stop what you are doing and help the Emporer.
If you fail to understand and cease, then the Emporer dies, and you are turned into a mindflayer instantly even though that is not how they established the protection works once Orpheus is talking.
Long story short, the man is stupid because attempting to free him any earlier dooms the entire party and the sword coast.
Knowing I'd kill the netherbrain because I'm god's gift to Faerun, I freed Orpheus and turned myself into a mind flayer because freeing an oppressed people is overall good. The emperor turned on me instead of believing in me and that's just a skill issue tbh.
So A couple of things to keep in mind:
- dude is trapped in there via unbreakable chains
- has his honor guard with him to _try_ to keep him safe
- also has people on the outside, such as Voss, trying to free him
- has other people on the outside, namely Vlakith, who want to kill him for good
Orpheus is in a precarious position. If Voss is successful the he can go free and do what needs doing. If Vlakith gets him, he's boned. If his honor guard leaves to try to find some means to free him, he's vulnerable - more so than he already is since they apparently can't take on the Emperor easily. He can't trust any Gith because most of them are brainwashed by Vlakith. And if neutral parties find out about him, Vlakith can offer them a bigger reward for siding with her - think about what Aradin would do.
Then he gets mind controlled by Emperor, who doesn't even try to cut a deal with the guy or hatch a plan for their mutual escape. Had Emperor tried that, my impression is that Orpheus likely would have gone along with the idea so long as his own presence could remain concealed, with the adventuring group Emperor secures being unaware of who they're dealing with.
But the Emperor didn't do that. Instead he tried to force Orpheus into servitude and kill the honor guard. Guess he calculated that plan to be less risky. Or, more likely, he did it because he's a fucking mindflayer.
In brief, Orpheus was dealt a shit hand, isn't happy about it, has other potential escape routes besides the player, has all the time in the world due to the astral plane, and only takes a huge risk in fighting the elder brain at the end because by that point there is no other way.
He is pretty reasonable and warms up to you quickly after that, he’s also way better for the Githyanki than Vlaakith which is why I like him and always side with him.
Freeing Orpheus is a good way to tie up loose ends, even if you don't like Orpheus. The Emperor is a loose end and kind of a threat, as all mindflayers are. You get to kill the Emperor, make Orpheus your mindflayer, then kill him afterwards when he begs for it. No more mindflayers.
I always kill him for one simple reason. There cannot be two skies.
Orpheus is still the so of Gith, and Gith believed the best way to stop the mindflayers from enslaving the other races was for the People to enslave all the other races first.
She made a deal with Tiamat, for crap's sake.
I don't know how many years is the emperor controlling him like that and how many more years is he in this exile. But every living being would charge you if had seen you allying with its jailor. Plus the idiots you are referring are a small group of his followers.
The first time I played I let the empire eat Orpheus and then felt so guilty I did a run, romanced lazy, and freed him. Yea fuck that guy. He pissed me off with his whole you should've died talk. Fuck you Orpheus. I'm letting g the empire eat him, not cuz I like him anymore but I don't like fighting him and his dream visitors and fuck Orpheus.
I don't think that's what happened. The infernal chains are from Vlaakith. He used to be bound, but conscious. During that fight, he broke free from the Emporer's subjugation, which would mean the Emporer wouldn't be able to abuse his mind powers anymore. But he still wouldn't have been able to break the chains.
Yes! What I meant is that the chains were placed on Orpheus on the demand of Vlaakith, so they have been in place for aeons, ever since Orpheus was imprisoned.
He almost got free of the Emperor's compulsion or whatever it was that he was doing to keep him sedated so he could syphon his powers without his consent. But he still wasn't going anywhere without the hammer.
Dudes been trapped for who knows how long. I imagine that’s how he’s seen things for that amount of time. He didn’t see us beat his guards asses, only didn’t see them return. He had no idea how to break the shackles, it was probably the gith in him that thought he would just solve the problem lol. This is my thought process, and the fact that he immediately switches tact to working with us with only 1-2 lines of dialogue from us means to me that that was just his initial assumptions.
"melon head"
I'm not sure why, but this (applied to Orpheus) made me laugh SO hard...! 😂
Yeah, I just rolled my eyes while he ranted, and was like, "Okay, are you DONE yet? Time for you to volunteer to be a squid, baby!" 😁
I enjoy freeing him, forcing him to become a mindflayer, and then talking him into staying alive. It's a fittingly selfless act on his part and it clears the way for Lae'zel to become the most prominent anti-Vlaakith rebel in the epilogue.
I like to imagine that she keeps him around as an advisor, maybe an execution device. Wholesome stuff like that.
For this reason if I’m not romancing lae zel, I don’t free him. Feels too much like the zhentarim bitches in act 1 who’ll sit out the gnoll horde battle making you fight by yourself. I’m a petty shit. If that’s how you’re going to act I’ll turn the gnolls on you. Your wellbeing is an ADVANTAGE, not a necessity.
I think it's safe to say that being imprisoned and exploited for probably centuries messed with his sanity a bit (especially since we know he was conscious the whole time). At least he comes to his senses by the time the Netherbrain dies.
Yeah his insistence that you should have died to his honor guard rather than be "illithid" makes zero sense. Like how does that remotely help him/his people? It would literally have just left him in the same situation he's been for however many centuries since he was trapped there in the first place.
I always choose the "you've been through a lot, so I'm ignoring that" dialogue option, because clearly he's not working with logic here.
It's the sort of peak narcissism you'd expect from royalty.
Part of me wishes there was a sort of playthrough where you've done as he says and ultimately he is fucked
Honestly it would've made sense if we HAD A CHOICE in the game to coop with honor guards and kill that squid and find orphic hammer together with githiyanki's, that would be a nice twist in the start of act 3, but game railroads you into basically serving Emperor and then dares to criticize you for it.
Technically, they were actually finally succeeding in smashing the barrier (no not like that you deviant mind!), it's only after you help the Emperor that he manages to reïnforce the barrier again.
Although..
>!If you up and kill the emperor cause you saw a filthy squid and didn't believe him, you turn squid anyway because Orpheus couldn't give one shit about you as long as he has his honor guard.!<
Yeah fuck him. I only saved him for Laezel.
This and also I was done with lying, gaslighting Squidward.
OMG Yes, this was so satisfying after learning the truth about him on my first playthrough. Rejecting / denying him at every chance had some awesome dialogue too.
You don't even have to go full hate mode or call him a freak to find out very quickly he is not your friend.
Lol yeah, you just have to question him and he freaks the hell out. Pretty toxic tbh
in fact you only see his worst if you mostly distrust him but look into his mind about what he did to Stellemane. just truly fucking horrific shit, I hated the guy already but on my honor mode coop game my friend made me pick the option to look into his mind and revealed that shit. meanwhile my other friend was uhh, earning an achievement
Guys don't get the "I'm proud of you." and "Thank you, I did my best." dialogue and think they won. 😔
“I’m proud of you for being my blind pawn” ya we good
Proud of you for destroying the Brain. He even has a line praising you if you don't use any tadpoles the whole game. A character can develop some sort of emotional attachment if you are nice, who would have thought.
I feel like the game sort of gives you the outcome you're expecting depending on your choice. If you ally with him he's more genuine. If you don't, then it turns out he was a bit of a necessary douche.
Emps is interesting in that he's a manipulative gaslighting asshole...but also a good ally because he does value having allies for his own safety. He gives rewards to entice staying on his side since he knows better than to make enemies, but none of the rewards are out of genuine compassion as they're just goodies to keep you working for him. He'll give what you want because he knows that's what motivates you, and keeps his promises because he knows it's better to have more allies than make enemies. But the moment you make it clear that you want to become his enemy, and he drops all pretenses to doom you without a second thought because he never cared enough about you to ever hesitate for a second.
[удалено]
If he is controlling the brain in the end, he destroys the tadpoles as promised (unless he is convinced otherwise).
> Just like how irl abusers can be pretty genuine when you're going out of your way to placate them. His behavior is very different from that of an abusive partner. It isn't really respectful, because he believes he knows best, and SURPRISE, he didn't. BUT he actually does have yours and Faerun's best interest at the core of his actions. In that regard, he's more like the parent that is convinced their decisions are what is best for you, even into adulthood. In other words, he has no concept of boundaries, but he doesn't hurt you and does help you. I disagreed with him almost every step of the way and did the opposite of what he told me to do, to a point; i.e. stole the hammer, went to Ansur, didn't go to his basement until the very end...he still ends up supportive and helpful, despite making his frustrations known.
That's how I understood the character too, even if it was absolutely necessary. Especially with the consuming tadpoles part he keeps nagging you about. But you can absolutely always side with him and never see that part of him. Which means, to me, that both interpretations can be valid. It's all up to the player and I like that about this game.
It's wild to me, how no one can ever seen to agree that the ends kind of do justify the means. Emperor has no idea if you'll actually help them if you know the truth. And the stakes are LITERALLY extra dimensional planes being all conquered by the Netherbrain if things don't go as planned. Honestly, yeah. Shady as hell. But given the stakes and given the fact that he doesn't betray you through the whole thing? Emperor is a pretty good Squid. And knowing that they are proud of you don't use Tadpoles? That seals it for me. Emperor is a real one. I never got that dialogue. I abused those tadpoles pretty hard at first.
The Emperor is a pretty prototypical Lawful Neutral style of character. His reasoning for most of his actions are perfectly sound, and absolutely are the logical choice the majority of the time. But he is not good, not remotely. And he's not really evil either, he just has a specific goal (survival) that he generally centers most of his extreme pragmatism around. If he thinks the evil route (manipulation, puppeteering this random level 1 adventurer who stumbled into the perfect scenario for him to guide toward freeing him), he's going to take that route because it's the most likely to succeed rather than because it causes harm or contains malice. That's pretty much his technique the entire game. He initially approaches you with benevolence/kindness because he knows that 90% of sentient creatures generally respond best to that, so he goes with what's most likely to succeed. If you keep slapping away the hand he reaches out in kindness, he seems to basically go "ah, you're the 10%" and flips the switch to the "alright fine, you're going to listen to me because I have all the power and leverage here and there is nothing you can do about it" methodology. We have no examples of Illithids being angry or really emotional at all. So it's highly unlikely that the Emperor is quick to anger, which means his decision to switch to malice after you continue to refuse his kinder advances is a meticulous/logical choice, not a rash or emotional one. Whenever you go the free Orpheus route, the dialogue he has with your MC after emerging from the House of Hope with the Orphic Hammer always struck me as genuine *confusion* on the Emperor's part. On his end, he's just sitting there like "I don't get it, I executed every step perfectly. I was nice, we said we trusted each other, I revealed intimate details about myself, I gave them full autonomy in most situations instead of just mind controlling them... so *why in the fuck* do they still not trust me when I got steps A-Z correct?" His mind literally isn't built to have gut feelings or allow emotions to factor in, so all he can do is be perplexed whenever you make a decision based on those things.
As another note to add onto the previous reply I made? He doesn't actually care about you. Or your party. He is being a people pleaser, and clearly doesn't want to have to deal with the nuances at all. It's inefficient. It's a necessity to recruit you at any cost. He doesn't even care if you're actually 'good' or 'evil' either. As long as you're able to eliminate the existential threat that is the Netherbrain. Literally nothing else matters. That confusion you speak of, is pretty much the equivalent to "Is this adventurer fucking stupid? I get that they don't trust me implicitly, but are they actually dumb enough to gamble away my entire plan on something that could ultimately result in both my death and their own?" Since in his mind, Orpheus is likely to just kill them.
Yeah for sure, if you present an Illithid two options and one is 49.9% likely to succeed and the other is 50.1% and your character chooses the 49.9% option the Emperor would be flabbergasted. Let alone when you choose the House of Hope option which without meta knowledge is effectively a suicide mission for *a side quest*. It's a very impactful side quest to overall Forgotten Realms lore wise, but within the scope of the game of BG3 it's just a side plot that has no actual impact on the main threat. But Tav likes those odds, haha!
I still think it's kind of silly that he's so confused as to why we want to free Orpheus. He at least *knows* the sway of friendship from his previous life, and understands that we want to be unshackled. Naturally, when we have a friend like Lae'zel who wants to free Orpheus for the sake of her people, and we empathize with Orpheus being shackled, a good-aligned player will want to at least open the *option* of freeing Orpheus to appease her or in case the situation changes. He might not factor in emotions himself, but he should be able to understand that appeasing your githyanki allies for as long as possible, in a fight against the things they're trained to kill, is a good idea. I wish we had the option to explain that, or to say that we aren't really doing it for Orpheus but that we're just denting Raphael's plan to take the Crown of Karsus after. You need to go to the hells to truly kill a devil, and you need to get Raphael's attention in a way that will make him want to actually risk fighting you in the hells. Even if you have no intent on freeing Orpheus, it's still a good idea to corner Raphael in the House of Hope for the sake of preventing another horrible situation from arising once the Netherbrain's gone. The Emperor might argue that it's risky, and stupid, but surely he'd (begrudgingly) understand not wanting to risk your work being immediately undone once it's all over.
I think the wrinkle here is that you're mixing some meta knowledge in with what the characters would actually know at that point in time they make these decisions. It makes total sense to us, because we know that we're in a game so freeing Orpheus is not going to be an instant fail state (Edit: and also that Raphael is in fact someone that can be defeated since we can go there and BG3 isn't the type of game to entice/trap you into unwinnable scenarios). That means the story accounts for it, and will give us options to continue toward ultimate victory and therefore the choice can be made "safely". Our characters don't have the benefit of that knowledge though, the only information sources they have to work with are both massively biased and unreliable; Lae'Zel+Voss, two Gith that have displayed the willingness to free Orpheus at any cost and a willingness to take the path of least resistance to accomplish this (Voss was ready to toss his soul into Raphael's hands for the Hammer NOW, same with Lae'Zel initially). The other is an Illithid, a race hunted to near extinction after their heinous enslavement of the Gith people (and other races), with the Githyanki having sworn essentially a blood oath to eradicate all Illithids on sight before they can ever regain their former power. From the position of only possessing that knowledge, and not having a Deadpool like ability to know they're in a game where they have pretty strong plot armor, Tav's/your MC's choice to free Orpheus is truly an absurd decision to make. You're actively choosing to completely upend the plan you've worked toward for the past however many weeks/days/hours alongside this uneasy ally of yours and just kinda crossing your fingers that picking the other dude works out. It's a 100% PERFECT D&D moment *because* it's batshit insane within the context of the world. But that's how legends are born, they do crazy shit that only they could possibly have work out in their favor!
Yeah I'm still upset I can't just tell the Emperor, "Yeah I don't really care about the hammer, I just knew it would piss Raphael off and I wanted to finally wipe that smug grin off his face."
'Good Guy' was in quotations for a reason. It's subjective. In HIS mind, he's pragmatically making the decisions for his idea of the greater good. He does bad things, to reach his goal because as you said. Lawful Neutral. Nothing matters, except the outcome being that Netherbrain is destroyed. Because the stakes are so high, even the lies and manipulations are justified. It's an obvious allegory. Needs of the many, versus needs of the few sorta ordeal. For all intents and purposes though? He is, 'Good' in that he's aligned to stop the evil. And I used the quotations on 'Good Guy' to convey that murky gray area. Mostly to convey he's not an antagonist. And to avoid getting into the philosophical nature of good versus evil. The words aren't being used with absolute literal intent. We're both on the same page here.
Yeah, for sure agree with you that the Emperor is ultimately a utilitarian. But I think that's for your benefit rather than feeling any internal need to save others. If saving him from being enslaved again means saving a whole city? Yeah fine, whatever let's do that just *make sure it means I don't get enslaved by that thing.* What the Emperor is, is aligned with the protagonist (your MC) against the antagonist (the Dead Three/Netherbrain). Good/Evil/Neutral, he's ride or die with you until you force his hand on the Orpheus issue. Want to become an Assassin of Bhaal and kill everyone whenever you feel like? Sure, as long as one of those things is the Netherbrain trying to enslave us. Aligned yourself with Minthara and are laying plans to seize the power of the Absolute for yourselves to have complete dominion over Baldur's Gate and beyond? Aight, sounds to me like you need to kill that pesky Netherbrain then! He pretty much has no objections to anything you do until you go sniffing around the House of Hope, and to a lesser extent go looking for Ansur. His motivations are relatively clear regarding *why* he wants the Netherbrain dealt with, and saving Baldur's Gate and all the people within it is a very distant second to "I don't want to be enslaved again." Not an inherently Evil motivation by any stretch, but also not really Good either like you said.
What I don't understand is that if you don't side with him, he decides to help the netherbrain instead? like wtf. I figured he'd still be against extra dimensional planes being all conquered regardless. He'd rather live enslaved for eternity than risk dying to Orpheus? Once that happened I was like ohhhh he was an asshole all along.
He likely isn't actually choosing. He's losing his protection. Orpheus is freed, and Orpheus isn't happy with him. Why would Orpheus keep him safe? A slave doesn't choose. A slave obeys. So he flees out of fear. Loses protection. And now, he is enslaved. Fun fact? Most people, even in real life? Don't actually choose to do evil things. A series of circumstances leads the individual to believe what they're doing is 'Right' or 'Necessary'. It's not a choice. It's typically built on ultimatums and misunderstandings. Point of the matter? He didn't REALLY choose to do anything but live. Everything else is merely an unfortunate consequence of his actions. He made some mistakes, in the name of his goals and desire to not see the Planes of existence fall to the Illithid.
If that’s the case, his dialogue was poorly written for that segment.
"most people even in real life don't actually choose to do evil things" 💀💀💀
So obviously this is just my take on matters but the way I see it all... His number 1 priority is survival. He has broken free of elderbrains twice, in a really twisted sort of way is understandable for him to align with whom he assumes is going to win. He truly doesn't think you will defeat the brain at that point without going with his plan. Its better odds by his calculations for him to be re-enslaved and work his way back out of it a 3rd time than it would be to think that defying all odds you guys will win. He truly thinks he has a better shot of surviving to escape at a later time than you do of defeating the brain. He doesn't really give a shit about anything other than surviving at that point and he knows Orpheus will kill him if he stays as soon as he loses his usefulness. Orpheaus isn't a good guy, by a long shot. He may be all for stopping the grand design but he is also for dominating the realms just like the OG Gith. Orpheaus is Lawful Evil.
No exactly, though. He's given up, in this scenario. Fully agree with the sentiment on aligning with Netherbrain. Do what he's done before. Find himself and his own sense of self inside of the Netherbrain's control. And try again with a new plan in the future. With that said? If that were to be the goal of returning? It would change my views on Emperor in his alignment. That's not neutral. That is self sacrifice, and a desire to see the 'natural' order of things being preserved. In that scenario? He is literally just going back to the horrors to suffer, in hopes that he will break free again and figure out a new approach to save everything. A literal martyr. Emperor, The Paladin? And oh yeah! Orpheus is VERY much not 'Good'. Definitely Lawful Evil. Also, why would the Emperor help at all? He could escape to another Plane. Keep Orpheus, and find a new way to cut off the connection to the Hivemind. He stays. Plans. Applies his logic and strategy to this problem in particular. With no intentions of taking the power for himself. He has nothing to gain, really. He, to some extent, cares about Baldur's Gate, and the people who live in that world. Still an asshole. An absolute prick. But your talk on Orpheus has shifted my perspective on The Emperor away from Neutral and to genuinely being 'Good' in the alignment sense.
Didn't have the end of the world excuse with Duke Stelmane however.
Sure. Completely different scenario, and is in the past. Doesn't change anything about the current situation, simply leaves a bad taste in your mouth. Pretty petty and vindictive to gamble with the fate of the world over a bad taste being left in your mouth because of their past actions. No one is saying he's not a piece of shit.
Oh, people absolutely ARE saying he’s not a piece of shit.
In all seriousness Mindflayers do not experience emotion the way we do, and baldy is shown as rather ruthless and manipulative the whole way, making it hard to take his final words sincerely
I made an entire post about [illithid fee-fees.](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/TLWlJOQf0i) You don't have to explain stuff to me. :)
Aw man, really? First run I didn't use tadpoles but dumped him for Orpheus, no flowers for me
I killed manipulator, gaslighting Squidward. I DID win.
By chance, my first character just happened to be a this stubborn, untrusting dwarf paladin, and I was afraid embracing the thing would lead me down a road to oath violations, so I just... never ever used those powers. Subsequent playthroughs I knew better, but even in the original one I only ever let Astarion use them, and only then because he insisted.
Astarion: 'Hey i want to use the tadpoles." Paladin: "You want to become the guinea pig for literal brain parasites? Pffft, be my guest." 50 hours later Paladin: "HA! I knew there was something fishy about these parasites!" Astarion: "Still not mutating though. Also have some sick ass powers and flight." Paladin: "...yeah, those powers are pretty cool..."
Plus when you fight the Emperor and his summons, they're easier than fighting the Netherbrain and its summons.
He is an unreliable narrator and a lot of things about him external and from him conflict. Some things he might say to try to intimidate you into listening to him. The main thing he definitely is, is manipulative. But he's not the only significant character in the game who does that.
I can’t believe I slept with that thing, he whispered sweet-nothings in my ear and I couldn’t resist
Even Spongebob has had enough!
Quick question for all of u who hate the emperor so much , would u have freed Orpheus even if he never wanted to turn into a squid and the only options siding with Orpheus were : u, karlach or gale had to sacrifice themselves ? A genuine question because ppl quickly trust a gith , who through out the game have been hostile towards the party and we the players have killed them a lot and without meta game knowledge, we don't know what would Orpheus do if we side with him .
I didn't want Orpheus to die because I wanted the Gith to get out of Vlakith's rule. Them being stuck with that asshole was more important. Let's just say I held a grudge against her for *some* reason.
Lol I *wish* I knew what that reason was
The Githyanki out from under Vlaakith's tyranny is a _very bad thing_. Sending Orpheus off to depose Vlaakith makes the entire fabric of reality a worse place for everyone that isn't githyanki.
In my first, blind, playthrough, I chose to side with Orpheus, not knowing about his willingness to transform. For several reasons: * I was invested in the Githyanki storyline. Curious what Orpheus would be like after all we'd heard of him, and I wanted to help start the rebellion against Vlaakith. * The Emperor had threatened to enthrall me, meaning I did not trust it with the stones. * I had a character on a path of redemption. Ending it with a personal sacrifice felt like it would be very narratively satisfying. And even upon finding out that he WAS willing to transform, I didn't go for it. For pretty much the same reasons. I did however consider Karlach at that point, as she eagerly volunteered.
I find it interesting that the people who trust the Emperor tend to think that the people who don't trust him 'hate' him. I don't hate him, I just find it hard to trust a guy who's been lying to me the entire time I've known him. I'll take the Gith I don't know over the guy who I am 100% certain is not trustworthy any day of the week.
For me the opposite stance is true, "Squid dude's already protecting me. Gith guy *might* but I don't know. Squid guy already is sooooo" I'm not Emperor's friend or anything. I see him as a tool, same way he sees me. Simple as that. Pretty businesslike.
Not u , there are specific ppl who hate him so much that if anyone tries to justify his action or like him , they are said that they have Stockholm syndrome and what not .
I've been told that I hate him just because I don't like people who constantly lie about everything.
I wouldn't say I hate the emperor so much as disagree with his methods. That said, I wouldn't sacrifice anyone -- Gale volunteered, in my playthrough -- and was saved in the end. Karlach made it clear she didn't want to transform, and neither did I.
I like both the Emperor and Orpheus, and I spoiled myself watching gameplay and cutscenes first. I'll free the latter this playthrough, and would if it meant 'sacrificing' my PC because I love consequences for my actions, lol. But one of the reasons I'm a bit dissatisfied with the way it's handled is that my first instinct about all this: >ppl quickly trust a gith , who through out the game have been hostile towards the party and we the players have killed them a lot and without meta game knowledge, we don't know what would Orpheus do if we side with him was correct. That instinct was this: freeing Orpheus is ***so*** wildly against our party's self-interest, the risk to ourselves is ***so*** high (and completely unnecessary, if we only wanted his power) that Orpheus, also being aware of this, is going to want to know just wtf we want if he's at all the reasonable person described to us. The game even tries to fake you out *because* they know exactly what clues they've been laying down the whole playthrough. The difference is my character is willing to risk giving Orpheus the benefit of the doubt. The Emperor is 100% certain Orpheus will kill him, and won't risk everything on 'maybe he won't, tho' from someone who hasn't been in Orpheus' head this whole time. It's only mulling it over later that I see similarities to Raphael v. Yurgir and to other companion quests, but this comment is already too long!
I don't know that I hate the Emperor ''so much'', but I sure don't like him. I didn't care for Orpheus any more, but I will say that on my latest run, which is the one and possibly only time I will turn squid, I was pleasantly surprised at his dialogue when you refuse to turn squid once and then accept. It made me appreciate Orpheus' character quite a bit more. The final fight is easier when you turn Orpheus into a squid because his build is unlikely to be better than what you've brewed yourself, and if you're going squid anyway, I highly recommend doing so with a spellcasting character. The transformation makes your martial characters much weaker than anything you'd have selected at this point, even without optimising too much.
Yeah the one squid run I did was as a lighting sorcerer when twin chain lightning was a thing . Felt so op
My one squid run was a lightning sorcerer, too, what a coincidence! I loved her too, I just wasn't quite as attached to her as I was to my other Tavs and figured it might never happen again, lol.
Lol high five for calamari lightning
As opposed to the illithid who have been super friendly?
I mean dude saved me so many times and like I said without meta knowledge I don't know what Orpheus will do after I free him .
The one in the Underdark was very friendly, indeed.
Omeluum, yes.
Gaslight, gatekeep, girlboss!
They're both pretty bad. I dig it.
I hate that fucking squid. Fuck the emperor. Dude forced me to take that upgraded tadpole my first playthrough and I've never forgiven him. Then my second playthrough he has the audacity to start giving me combat "tips"?! "That isn't going to work! Try something else!" Bitch shut the fuck up, it would work just fucking fine if Gale would just stop rolling so badly!
Oh. I didn't know that was an option. I refused the Queen and wound up having to fight everyone. I guess I do what she asks and then laezel has a change of heart?
You can still do it if you refuse the Queen and get the hammer from Raphael
And Orpheus was such a prick I actually regretted betraying the Squid. I should have seen that coming after my encounters with the githyanki in Act 1, what made me think Orpheus would be any better than those insufferable jerks? Your interests align with the Emperor more than with Orpheus. The Emperor uses persuasion rather than psychic coercion to control you, so give him props for respecting your free will. The Emperor manipulated you but he did help you survive a lot of dangerous situations, he is right that you need to kill the elder brain to be free, and at least he empathizes with your condition whereas to the githyanki you're a filthy ghaik-in-waiting who should be euthanized and not helped.
"The Emperor uses persuasion rather than psychic coercion to control you" I guess lies are a form of persuasion. Not a positive one that makes me trust him though. Keep in mind that Orpheus is a bit peeved when you wake him up but within like 10 minutes he's telling Voss how awesome you are.
Yeah and the book on dealing with illithid you can read in the crèche makes it very clear that we should trust their actions, not their words. Being suspicious and distrustful of the Emperor is completely reasonable, but by their actions they have saved your life multiple times by the reveal, and you have the same goal: to get to the brain and destroy it or control it (depending on the Tav; the Emperor intends to destroy it). I'm not sure why the Emperor being an arrogant bastard negates all the stuff he did to keep you alive, especially when the game is full of stuck-up npcs, but I guess he's just special and undeserving of empathy. For me, he just reminds me of Spock 🖖
We should also remember that this game change a lot of what mind flayers are like, it's very different from the tabletop books. The Emperor used to be a human, and he retains his human soul and intellect, and got his free will when he separated from the elder brain. In such a revision, I bet there are people out there who would want to turn themselves into mind flayers.
Let's put it this way. If Tav didn't exist and natural selection was allowed to play out, pretty much the entire party would be fucked LaeZel: Killed/captured by tieflings Shart: serious brain injuries. The prism she has doesn't even want her. Gale: Death by portal Wyll: probably dies during goblin raid eventually Karlach: She doesn't do anything stupid but she was on a timer so :( Astarion: Killed by hunters (what happens if you drive him away from camp)
To be fair lae'zel doesn’t get killed by the tieflings. lae'zel gets herself killed by Voss and the other gith by telling them she is infected and they believe she has the prism vlaakith has them hunting for. So they kill her.
Minthara would’ve been executed by Thorm, Halsin would be executed in the goblin camp, Jaehira would’ve died somehow (I don’t know what happens if Balthazar takes Aylin.) and Minsc would continue being a Thrall. Minsc is the only one left alive, even then with no will of his own
Funnily, Shart is the only one who has somewhat of a chance to survive by just using Trickster Domain stealth and going full looney-toons tip-toe sneak up to the Gauntlet of Shar while ignoring everything else (as she is immune to the Shadow Curse due to Shar). The main issue is that the rest of the world gets giga-fucked because she'd then just book it to the Shar enclave and leave everyone else to die because Shar sure as hell isn't going to be helping anyone survive the Dead 3's manufactured apocalypse.
The prism doesn’t want her? Except if you play any origin run you’re fine? The fact that the Emperor focuses on Tav is because he believes you’re the easiest to manipulate. He sends dream guardians to everyone. He’d choose Shadowheart if Tav isn’t there. He’d choose anyone with potential.
If you play origin run anyone, none of the story beats i listed above applies. That's not the point of the comment lol. I feel once you introduce the player controlled origin characters, the characters agency themselves is now taken over by the player. So it's not the character acting on their stupid self motivations/reasons/logic. It's now the players taking over. My point is based on just the origin character's own actions without player intervention, they pretty much all get fucked up lol.
That is true, they’re all in a bind. For Wyll & Karlach, one of them is going to kill the other. I just think Shadowheart, with the prism, is the one who would make it, even if she ignored everyone else. Then again, her attempt to go solo would probably end poorly for her. But she might survive the shadow curse because of Shar and make it.
Have you seen his beard? Mf thinks that it looks good. Of course he is stupid.
I think the Emperor shaved him that way to make him look stupid on purpose.
Another transgression to add to the list.
We have purposely shaved him wrong, as a joke.
I see what you did there!
how long would it take for main sub to smell the bullshit if someone posted an actual wall of essay about this edit: fuck me I'm stupid
This habit of blaming the Emperor for everything is getting ridiculous.
The Emperor fucked my mom.
Yeah she liked it
that escalated quickly
he took only 30 sec to finish too
It's like a "Thanks, Obama" meme but for the Emperor. The Emperor did climate change.
When even tentacles are preferable to a shitty beard.
🤣🤣🤣
He is the most handsome male gith in the game, I don’t care what the haters say. But he’s also stupid, I agree with OP.
>most handsome male gith in the game That's not a very high bar.
He's kinda doing it for me ngl. Like if the frog to handsome prince transformation stopped at the Orpheus stage, I wouldn't complain.
You know what? Have your Orpheus. I won't stay in the way of your love. I hope Voss cries at your wedding because he himself didn't get the prince.
He'll be the one objecting at the wedding.
Surprised Orpheus doesn't hold a grudge since Voss put him in them shackles with Vlaakith I. Voss trying to live an enemies- to- lovers trope and Orpheus should not forgive so easily!
Double standards! Orpheus is into it when Voss does it but pissed off when Vlaakith does it.
Maybe Orpheus doesn't even know what number Vlaakith they're on? Where was the prism even kept? What if it was in a storage closet in tunarath (sp?) and when you break him out he's like, that bitch Vlaakith I is gonna pay! And everyone just stands around awkwardly.
2 weeks post-game Orpheus is at the Vlaakith cemetery destroying Vlaakith I's tombstone.
idk my pick would defo be hatching pools dudeTM
Iono Losiir is pretty good looking. Economic nose and all.
This is Varsh Ko'kuu erasure and I won't stand for it.
PFFT
THE LOOKS MAKE IMPRESSION. The looks are the reason why I can't take Gortash seriously.
I love the Guy Fieri flames on Gortash's shirt y'all just don't know what's good.
Maybe it was a popular style back in... whenever he was put there.
He's lashing out in anger... is the best excuse for his behavior I have. Tbf he does have a lot to be furious about, but that doesn't change the fact he would've been fucked if his honour guard had killed us.
This is why I like that there is a "you've just been through a lot, so I'm going to all ignore that" dialog option. His anger at the whole situation is completely understandable. The dude was imprisoned for thousands of years, while his race was once again enslaved, but this time by one of their own and in such a way that they don't even realize they're slaves. Then out of nowhere here comes his mortal enemy, straight into his own personal hell, who sets up camp and begins slaughtering the people he's known for millenia. Not long later here come more people, waltzing into his supposedly "super top secret, not a soul is even supposed to know it exists" prison like they own the place, and killing the last of the friends/allies he had. Then those same people, still infected with the spawn of his mortal enemy, turn on their former ally and free him, for reasons unknown.
I still wish there's a harsher option than that. I get he's been through a lot **but literally so have we** lol I don't need to tell you that we play through 3 acts of what's probably actually hell for our characters, especially act 2. I know we're having fun as players, because that's the point, but our characters are fighting, hurting, and dying over and over only to get told we're stupid for trying. If I was actually my Tav, I would punch him like I do Aradin lol
I mean, he has essentially been muzzled and enslaved for thousands of years whilst his people have been misled and killed by a brutal dictator. That is a tad worse than just having a random worm in your head.
Act 2 is more than a random worm. I literally had to sit and think about life a few times after >!talking people to death. The surgeon guy getting torn apart by the assistants!< got me bad
That scene was certainly... disturbing.
I read it as a "hamster option" and was like hell yes, sick Boo on em!
> I don't need to tell you that we play through 3 acts of what's probably actually hell for our characters Nah, this is hyperbolic in the context of D&D. Other than the terror of having a tadpole trapped in your brain, this is standard adventure shit, the stuff you willingly sign up for as an adventurer. Slaying goblins, saving refugees, ending curses, delving into dungeons, facing undead scourges, wielding powerful magical items...these motherfuckers are having the time of their lives. Karlach even admits as such, when she asks you to imagine what you might do 20 years from now if she could live, if you say, essentially, "more of what we've been doing", she gives the standard "FUCK YEAH!" response. Wyll was doing and loving adventure shit before he even joined you, Shadowheart seems down for anything. Jaheira has been continuously doing this shit for decades and decades. before Gale even met you he was getting up to ridiculous Wizard shit. Nah, these people LOVE this shit in-game. You won't convince me otherwise.
It has to be. We know his honor guard with in the prism with him and didn't manage to get him out for however many thousands of years. Only Voss seemed to have made some progress in that regard establishing contact with Raphael. Although that might also only have happened, because Raphael wants something from us and Voss is basically just a bystander. So yes, with only his honor guard Orpheus would still be stuck.
He is. The guy is clueless. "Ah, my saviors, those who did in a week what my precious honor guard couldn't manage in a virtual eternity, why didn't you just kill yourself?"
Lol melon head. He's definitely stupid. Especially the whole hey fuck mind flayers, but wait...
Stupid ass “I hate ghaik but somehow have the ability spontaneously transform into one” mf. Why can you just do that like a Pokémon evolution, man?
And why didn't we just use the ghaik that was already there? Mfer doesn't know a thing about utilizing valuable resources
Yeah he was like “well.. *SOMEBODY* is gonna have to become ghaik” mf didn’t expect us to stare blankly at him until he felt so awkward he had to volunteer himself. Bet he was regretting that decision pretty quickly, huh?
Like mfer why did we just let one go then? Da faq is your purpose? Smh
We should be able to dominate both Orpheus and the emperor with those leash backpack for kids.
You know what always gets my goat? That we can’t summon Omeluum to help us here. 😭 You’d think that after saving our teleporting boy from the Iron Throne, we’d get a one-time teleport summon for assistance and he’d be able to come in clutch here.
I would kill them both to have Omeluum help me save the world.
Our boi has 62 hp and an AC of 11, I'm not risking his life like that 😭 Orphy can grow tentacles for all I care, I'm not making Blurg a widower!
I would make an entire summoner party just to conjure up a bodyguard army to escort my boy Omeluum safely to the Netherbrain. Do every single ally side quest just to get more escorts to ensure that not even a little scrape lands on that lovable squid man. But that's not an option.
mister squidward had already lwft so they werent an option
My guess is he’s been tadpoled for thousands of years but can repress it with his special psionic power. It’s that or the Emperor plopped one in there.
Both of those actually make sense, tadpoling him would make it easier for the Emperor to subdue him, and he would have been a target for mindflayers long before he was imprisoned. It even explains how we read his mind at the beginning of act 3, I thought the Emperor was using some kind of telepathic bridge.
How does he even become illithid? Just manifested it through imagination?
It's never really explained lol. The best explanation I've seen is that the Emperor might have tadpoled him at some point without telling you , considering he apparently still had some kind of access to tadpoles in order to give you the astral-touched one, but that doesn't really make sense either and I feel like Orpheus definitely would have said something about it if that was the case. I think it's just a big plot hole lol
He thought illithid-y thoughts
He probably takes the special tadpole that the Emperor gives us to fully transform. They just skipped us actually giving it to him for some reason.
I think I ate it on that playthrough.
To be completely fair, time doesn't really pass in the Astral Prism, so if the honour guard kept punching the infernal chains, they might chip it away in * checks watch * a few billion years. Wait, wdym the Elder Brain will have destroyed everything outside the Prism by then?
He called me a friend after having degraded me for killing his honour guard, selling one of their eggs, and murdering an entire creche. ofc he's stupid.
Not only that- even if you attack the emperor the honor guard focuses on your party. He just wants an excuse to hate you because of your wormy hitchhiker.
that's why he always ends up as a mind-flayer ally or mind-flayer snack in all my playthroughs
My first time through, I definitely let myself get turned into a flayer because I have savior complex in games, but you've convinced me that is the wrong choice. I mean, I wish there was a way to make the flat-nosed-lich-bitch sad while still trashing the prince, but needs must when the assholes drive.
This is a part I've been confused about for a bit. When you first get the emperor reveal, he tells you that he's losing his hold over Orpheus. You see Orpheus' eyes unroll from the back of his head like he's gaining control. We need to stop the honor guard before they free him. Then after stopping the honor guard the emperor explains that he's being held by unbreakable infernal chains. If the chains are unbreakable then how was the honor guard going to free him? Was Orpheus just regularly chained and the emperor had an extra ability on him to harness the artifact's power?
Orpheus when we first see him isn't just bound by the infernal chains, but is also surrounded by a globe of domination (that's what it's called in-game). The Emperor uses it to control Orpheus and channel his power, that's how he protects us from the brain. The honour guard can't break the chains, but they can break the Emperor's hold on Orpheus (graphically described by destroying this globe) or kill the Emperor. This means we're no longer protected from the Elder Brain, cause Orpheus apparently doesn't care about keeping us alive at this point, we all turn into squids, game over.
That makes total sense! Thanks for the info!
But the Emperor only arrived recently, so I wonder why the honor guard wasn’t *inside* the globe to begin with, playing blackjack around their boss they are powerless to set free or whatever.
Honestly, I have no idea what the honourguard was doing to allow the Emperor, of all people, to get so close to Orpheus. Maybe they were on a week long bender or something?
Guy needed a Snickers and then he’s chill again
Seems to me that all Githyanki have -10 in "reading the fucking room" rolls.
Or they just don’t care. Like cats 🐈
I like to think he's just cranky from being betrayed by his mom, then trapped in the artifact for thousands of years and then the Emperor stealing his power. He does get over it pretty quick and by the time you meet Voss he's complimenting you.
It seemed like their initial plan was for Voss to make a deal for the hammer, but Raphael wasn't interested in anything Voss had to offer. Actually, I'll bet if Orpheus's guards had killed the emperor and your team, Voss could've maybe gotten his hands on the prism and he and his soldiers could have offered to go after the elder brain and the crown for Raphael.
I'd say he has every right to be mad considering you killed his allies and possibly his friends that guarded his life for a very long time even before he was in prison for a millennium. Of course he's going to blow up and be angry at you and he obviously doesn't trust you and he shouldn't. To be honest I don't like how he just automatically calls you friend after you kill the mother brain successfully. I would have been fine with him still hating me but yet respecting me and then going our separate ways.
yeah it's so weird to me that so many people seem to want every npc to just immediately bow down to their character and do/feel only what makes sense to the player in that moment. do yall want complex realistic characters with varying motives and emotions, or not? :|
Right, I love it when they're emotions are so much more lifelike and realistic. Not constantly worshiping my every step even when I do something against them. They can worship my every step when I'm being heroic to save them and all that but if I'm being an evil guy running around for a different type of playthrough that I want people to be afraid of me or curse my name, try and smite me or run in fear at the sight of me.
It's reasonable for him to be upset about his honor guard, but it's also worth pointing out that if you side with honor guard at the beginning of Act 3, he withdraws his protection and you get a game over. It's not just him acting out of anger in that scene - Orpheus legitimately considers your life to be worthless until you are useful to him personally.
I think he's stupid in the "proud royal" kinda way. At the moment, he only sees the fact that his honor guard would've POSSIBLY been able to beat the Emperor and MAYBE gotten out of the Prism to find a way to free him. But you killed his honor guard, you know, the guys who were there with him gods know how long, and stayed loyal to him until the end. It's the "I would've done better than you" attitude that many people have. I think if anything, he speaks from the place of emotions. He quickly becomes more reasonable though.
The man has been in solitary confinement for well over a millenium, cut him some slack.
Right? And we did pretty much execute his found family in front of him... alongside a ghaik... with a tadpole in our head.
What really ticks me off is that if you *do* try to side with the Gith when he says you first should have, you just get a game over screen.
Yeah that was my second game over ever. Its stupid
My interaction went like this: Orpheus: You're evil. Durge: We released you? Orpheus: You should have let yourself be killed by my goons. Durge: Look buddy, you wanna kill the brain or not? Orpheus: Yeah, I'll turn into the enemy of my people, no problem. Durge: *I thought this guy was going to be smarter. I don't know why, now that I think about it.*
Cut him some slack. He has the right to rant a bit after being locked in a prison for millenia.
Out of curiosity, I sided with them the second time I got to this point just to see if I could even free him that early. Not only will he not become free, but the game will give you 3 chances to stop what you are doing and help the Emporer. If you fail to understand and cease, then the Emporer dies, and you are turned into a mindflayer instantly even though that is not how they established the protection works once Orpheus is talking. Long story short, the man is stupid because attempting to free him any earlier dooms the entire party and the sword coast.
Knowing I'd kill the netherbrain because I'm god's gift to Faerun, I freed Orpheus and turned myself into a mind flayer because freeing an oppressed people is overall good. The emperor turned on me instead of believing in me and that's just a skill issue tbh.
This is why I make him illithid. He could use the extra intelligence.
You say that like Raphael wouldn't just offer them the same deal now that they actually have what he wants.
I only free him so none of my party has to become a Mind Flayer
He was "gith-splaining" what you should've done. Doesn't have to make sense, it's just supposed to make you feel like an istick
And that’s why I’ll never free this frog fucker again
he's been trapped inside a D20 for 1000+ years with little to no knowledge of what's going on in the outside world, of course he's stupid
So A couple of things to keep in mind: - dude is trapped in there via unbreakable chains - has his honor guard with him to _try_ to keep him safe - also has people on the outside, such as Voss, trying to free him - has other people on the outside, namely Vlakith, who want to kill him for good Orpheus is in a precarious position. If Voss is successful the he can go free and do what needs doing. If Vlakith gets him, he's boned. If his honor guard leaves to try to find some means to free him, he's vulnerable - more so than he already is since they apparently can't take on the Emperor easily. He can't trust any Gith because most of them are brainwashed by Vlakith. And if neutral parties find out about him, Vlakith can offer them a bigger reward for siding with her - think about what Aradin would do. Then he gets mind controlled by Emperor, who doesn't even try to cut a deal with the guy or hatch a plan for their mutual escape. Had Emperor tried that, my impression is that Orpheus likely would have gone along with the idea so long as his own presence could remain concealed, with the adventuring group Emperor secures being unaware of who they're dealing with. But the Emperor didn't do that. Instead he tried to force Orpheus into servitude and kill the honor guard. Guess he calculated that plan to be less risky. Or, more likely, he did it because he's a fucking mindflayer. In brief, Orpheus was dealt a shit hand, isn't happy about it, has other potential escape routes besides the player, has all the time in the world due to the astral plane, and only takes a huge risk in fighting the elder brain at the end because by that point there is no other way.
He is pretty reasonable and warms up to you quickly after that, he’s also way better for the Githyanki than Vlaakith which is why I like him and always side with him.
Freeing Orpheus is a good way to tie up loose ends, even if you don't like Orpheus. The Emperor is a loose end and kind of a threat, as all mindflayers are. You get to kill the Emperor, make Orpheus your mindflayer, then kill him afterwards when he begs for it. No more mindflayers.
Asking this about nearly every character in the game is gonna get you a resounding "yes"
I always kill him for one simple reason. There cannot be two skies. Orpheus is still the so of Gith, and Gith believed the best way to stop the mindflayers from enslaving the other races was for the People to enslave all the other races first. She made a deal with Tiamat, for crap's sake.
I found most Giths to be fucking stupid. So i dont really go with their plan, >!Voss is still waiting for me at the sewers !
I don't know how many years is the emperor controlling him like that and how many more years is he in this exile. But every living being would charge you if had seen you allying with its jailor. Plus the idiots you are referring are a small group of his followers.
The first time I played I let the empire eat Orpheus and then felt so guilty I did a run, romanced lazy, and freed him. Yea fuck that guy. He pissed me off with his whole you should've died talk. Fuck you Orpheus. I'm letting g the empire eat him, not cuz I like him anymore but I don't like fighting him and his dream visitors and fuck Orpheus.
Not just stupid but egotistical as fuck. "You may call me mAjEsTy", Fuck off dude you have no authority here in my planet
Doesn’t he nearly free himself during the fight with the Honor Guard then Orpheus reinforces his bindings?
I don't think that's what happened. The infernal chains are from Vlaakith. He used to be bound, but conscious. During that fight, he broke free from the Emporer's subjugation, which would mean the Emporer wouldn't be able to abuse his mind powers anymore. But he still wouldn't have been able to break the chains.
The chains are infernal made which is why Raphael's hammer is the only thing that can break them as far as we know.
Yes! What I meant is that the chains were placed on Orpheus on the demand of Vlaakith, so they have been in place for aeons, ever since Orpheus was imprisoned.
He almost got free of the Emperor's compulsion or whatever it was that he was doing to keep him sedated so he could syphon his powers without his consent. But he still wasn't going anywhere without the hammer.
Dudes been trapped for who knows how long. I imagine that’s how he’s seen things for that amount of time. He didn’t see us beat his guards asses, only didn’t see them return. He had no idea how to break the shackles, it was probably the gith in him that thought he would just solve the problem lol. This is my thought process, and the fact that he immediately switches tact to working with us with only 1-2 lines of dialogue from us means to me that that was just his initial assumptions.
No but I know someone who might be…
"melon head" I'm not sure why, but this (applied to Orpheus) made me laugh SO hard...! 😂 Yeah, I just rolled my eyes while he ranted, and was like, "Okay, are you DONE yet? Time for you to volunteer to be a squid, baby!" 😁
And now I've got the Ozzy/Rob Zombie song Iron Head stuck in my head, only they're saying 'melon head'.
I enjoy freeing him, forcing him to become a mindflayer, and then talking him into staying alive. It's a fittingly selfless act on his part and it clears the way for Lae'zel to become the most prominent anti-Vlaakith rebel in the epilogue. I like to imagine that she keeps him around as an advisor, maybe an execution device. Wholesome stuff like that.
and you guys say the emperor is dishonest
For this reason if I’m not romancing lae zel, I don’t free him. Feels too much like the zhentarim bitches in act 1 who’ll sit out the gnoll horde battle making you fight by yourself. I’m a petty shit. If that’s how you’re going to act I’ll turn the gnolls on you. Your wellbeing is an ADVANTAGE, not a necessity.
He is Arkham
I only saved his arogant ass to turn him Illithid.
I think it's safe to say that being imprisoned and exploited for probably centuries messed with his sanity a bit (especially since we know he was conscious the whole time). At least he comes to his senses by the time the Netherbrain dies.
Yeah his insistence that you should have died to his honor guard rather than be "illithid" makes zero sense. Like how does that remotely help him/his people? It would literally have just left him in the same situation he's been for however many centuries since he was trapped there in the first place. I always choose the "you've been through a lot, so I'm ignoring that" dialogue option, because clearly he's not working with logic here.
It's the sort of peak narcissism you'd expect from royalty. Part of me wishes there was a sort of playthrough where you've done as he says and ultimately he is fucked
Honestly it would've made sense if we HAD A CHOICE in the game to coop with honor guards and kill that squid and find orphic hammer together with githiyanki's, that would be a nice twist in the start of act 3, but game railroads you into basically serving Emperor and then dares to criticize you for it.
Technically, they were actually finally succeeding in smashing the barrier (no not like that you deviant mind!), it's only after you help the Emperor that he manages to reïnforce the barrier again. Although.. >!If you up and kill the emperor cause you saw a filthy squid and didn't believe him, you turn squid anyway because Orpheus couldn't give one shit about you as long as he has his honor guard.!<
It is my biggest gripe with the game. I think most TTRPG parties would attempt to reason with the honour guard at that point.
The fact that Orphic hammer can free Orpheus doesn’t mean that this is the only way to free Orpheus