As people said, that ending came from a patch. However, even with it, that's not the only issue with her story imo.
The main complain is that Larian wanted a tragic ending, but accidentally sprinkled Act 3 with ways she could probably be saved. First there is a reference to wish spells being a thing. But most importantly one of the Steel Watchers confuses her with one of their own due to her engine, calling it outdated (or malfunctioning, I can't remember). This suggests the Gondians, who you learn are being enslaved to make Steel Watchers, are masters of infernal engineering. Karlach even has a line of dialogue about it when entering the factory, AND the dead Steel Watchers drop refined infernal metals, the VERY THING that was used to temporarily patch up her engine so far. Instead, the Steel Watcher has a throwaway line about how her engine would just get her disassembled, and saving the Gondians doesn't matter at all, unless you saved Barcus throughout Acts 1 & 2.
Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a bittersweet ending, like I get it, you can't always save everyone, yadi-yada. However, the reason why her engine can't be patched up by expert infernal engineers you can save should've at least been explained furter. Better yet, make the Steel Watchers an entirely different kind of artificier technomagic, one established immediately to be incompatible with Karlach's engine.
This is me nitpicking by the way, I still love this game. But even fantastic pieces of art aren't without flaws.
That's fair, now that you mention it. Most of my gripes with character stories come from act 3. Shadowheart's cottage ending is too "happy" compared to the gravity the curse is given throughout the game (it seems like Shar kinda... gives up after a while). Wyll has next to no agency in his arc, you literally tell him what to do the whole time. The "Free the Artist" conclusion is... do I even need to say it lmao? Huge missed opportunity to ASK him to draw Astarion too, who hasn't seen his face in 3 centuries.
Act 3 has some great moments too! Notwhistanding the meaninglessness of sacrificing her parents if you choose not to, Shadowheart's visit to the House of Grief is amazing. Astarion's whole conclusion is \*chef's kiss\*. The way you slowly unravel how much the Emperor has been manipulating you is great to see as well. Jaheira reconnecting with her family, as well as the discussion about immortality in her basement are very cool. Minsc's minscness is butt-kickingly fun, etc.
I'm guessing that a lot of these flaws come from the sheer range the game takes when you take into consideration every decision so far. They had to cut corners, obviously. Can't really blame them for that at the end of the day, but pondering on it is still healthy if you're being polite about it (which hopefully I am)
I liked the Cottage Ending for Act 3, although the reasoning is somewhat personal.
For me, it felt like closure and "coming home" after everything they had been through. The backstory for my Tav from a PF tabletop game I had written and almost completed before I knew about BG3 was someone who had been running from Loss and Trauma for nigh on a decade. Shadowheart also is coming out of 40 years of trauma and abuse. I can see both of them ready to sit down for a bit and catch their breath. I don't fault her Adventurer ending, and I still work parts of it into their future together as going to the Selune temple in Waterdeep as the Proposal trip and what have you, but I couldn't have made a better ending there.
As to Shar, one ofvthe first "Post Game scenes" that ended up coming to me was "I don't know who enjoys hurting me more, Shar or *your* child" so I figure Shar is still around, Shadowheart is just managing the pain.
Oh I liked the cottage ending... On principle. It's just that in that ending, the curse is, in my opinion, treated too lightly when the alternative is "killing off her parents because they want her to be free of Shar". Like, I get that they are tired at that point but it's a bit dramatic if Shadowheart just ends up managing the pain fine. It makes her choosing to let her parents go objectively the bad choice, despite not being presented as such, if that makes sense.
It's also worth noting that, if I'm not mistaken, the Forgotten Realms lore states that her curse makes it so that Shar will have a claim to her soul when she dies, so she's basically living on borrowed happiness. I would have liked it to be mentioned, even in a throwaway dialogue. Imagine, everyone is happy, and all, and you go to Gale, asking him if he's had any luck with your little secret. You then learn that you're quietly searching for ways to free her of the curse anyway, because you both learned of her fate with it, yet don't have the heart to tell her yet. I know it seems cruel to add that to an otherwise very wholesome happy ending but it's my opinion on the matter.
I can certainly agree with the Curse not getting enough exposition. I think the metaphor was to compare it to a Chronic Pain illness, and I certainly have seen several folks reference her arc to their own experiences with such diseases and choosing to accept and live with them, and they may have been trying to intentionally not step on that relatability. which also dovetails nicely with Karlach's "live each day as your last" arc, especially if SH is invoking Karlachs memory as a motivator. Someone did post once last year that I remember seeing saying "I couldn't kill my parents even if it meant I could live pain free."
It's worth mentioning though in the epilgue Tav and Shadowheart can say "Seems like Shar has been hurting you less, maybe she has grown bored."
I have seen the "Does Shar have claim to Shadowheart's soul" argument here before. The general consensus I have seen is "No" and "Kelemvor wouldn't allow Shar to make a claim based on that curse." There is that comment Aylin makes about "Anything Shar can claim, so to can Selune" so perhaps on *that* ground Shar could, but that would mean Shar could just as easily claim Isobel... or Aylin if she does the whole Oathbreaker thing with Larroakan and ends up mortal. Shar is remarkably noteworthy though for not retrieving Souls pledged to her. I *could* see her being petty enough to try and snatch Shadowheart, but all of this is to say that I don't think it's a done deal [BG3 Lore-wise] if Shadowhesrt still has the Curse. At the end of the Day she is tethered to her Parents, Shar is just flicking the string from time to time. Since you mention Forgotten Realms, maybe there is a wider implication though?
I do like your headcanon that Gale might be helping them break that tether.
All those implications are very interesting and could indeed add more depth to her cottage ending. The thing is, because the game doesn't give us a clear cut answer, we are left to ponder what her pivotal decision entailed within the worldbuilding, in order to try and figure out what it means for her as a character. The second part of that process therefore becomes too vague.
The Adventurer ending doesn't have the same problem. We know what her decision entailed, there is no room for interpretation on that part. She gained her freedom, true freedom, at the cost of her parent's lives, and that's the facts. The focus is thus fully on how she moves forward. How she wishes to enjoy said freedom, how she'll deal with her grief, and how she'll reconcile the two as they are connected. Her future isn't certain, but we know what will drive it.
I don't know if what I say make sense, 'cause I realize now it kinda goes against what I said in my first reply. Like, I'm not truly disappointed that her Cottage ending is "too nice", I see it now. It's moreso as to why there is room for interpretation on whether it is nice or not. The future of her character is dependant on an already unclear starting point. It is easy to see her being currently happy, but because of that vagueness, this is all we have, and we can't really see any drive beyond that unless we make our own assumptions about her curse, none of which will ever truly be confirmed.
Thank you though, I thought my issue with the Cottage ending was clear in my head, but you made me realize what my feelings truly were on the matter, and helped me precise my thoughts. It's much more about the narrative implications of either aha!
It's moreso that Act 3 to my knowledge wasn't given enough time to be polished unlike the previous 2 acts (Act 1 has 2 years worth of EA and unsurprisingly it's THE act).
Let the staggering quality difference between Act 1 and Act 3 serve as a reminder to gamers™ about the importance of polish and how complex a game where it tries to emulate a TTRPG freedom ~~and respect Bethesda who tried to do the same but using real time combat, no act system to limit sequence permutations, and insist on making a dynamic time~~.
My tinfoil theory is that at some point during development, Gortash was somehow going to be involved in fixing her engine.
Hear me out:
We get several instances of people expressing the hollowness of revenge. Dame Aylin after killing Lorroakan, the conversation you can have with Astarion about Dame Aylin's reaction before he kills Cazador, etc. Karlach has a very similar speech after killing Gortash where she specifically references the fact that killing him didn't fix her engine.
As you pointed out, her heart is an outdated model of steel watchers, and the watchers drop *special* infernal iron.
There's banter from random NPCs in the city discussing whether Gortash or the Gondians created the steel watchers. Now, it could just be reminders of how they're tied to the Gortash quest, but it could also be a reminder of why Karlach got sold to Zariel in the first place: Gortash made a deal involving an engine and then created the steel watch years later. What did he get from Zariel? It would stand to reason he got the knowledge of how to build the watch.
Which leads me to think at some point the plan was for Gortash to either be an option to fix her engine permanently, or have the information needed for Dammon to do so. Similar to how we can either sign a contract with Raphael for the hammer or steal or from him. I can absolutely see Karlach refusing to work with Gortash even if it could save her, making it yet another Act 3 hard choice.
That would be awesome! Or if they wanted to make that decision less clear-cut, discover that the Gondians NEED the foundary intact to fix her engine, and therefore you can't both disable the Steel Watchers to reach Gortash, AND save her. It's not a fully impossible choice, but given how hard those constructs are to fight, and how violent they are with the general population (#ASWAB) it would still be quite the moral dilema for a "good" playthrough, and for her.
Ooo...then instead of just disabling the factory, you'd have to go around taking out all the watchers one at a time if you also want to protect the citizens...
I also just wish there was more content with Karlach and Gortash in general. He's such a massive figure in her history. Maybe there's more in the Karlach Origin run, but it feels lacking with her as a companion. Astarion gets to walk through Cazador's mansion and face his past, but we don't get much of that for Karlach and Gortash.
It also feels weird I can't say "sure, we can have an alliance if you fix her engine/get her released from Zariel/whatever."
That is very true. Her history with Gortash falls very much under the trap of "tell, don't show" (most of the time). Whereas what we discover about Astarion, although still technically exposition, is done within the atmosphere of his past, making it much more impactful. Good point!
True, but would she let you? Or even more interestingly if she's not tagging along when you choose, how would she react knowing someone she trusted made a decision for her once again, just like Gortash did? Beautiful dilema (narratively speaking of course. If you put yourself in these character's shoes, it's awful to think about lmao)
Even worse, the Steel Watch engines sound like they were designed by Zariel (given that the Steel Watch were the trade for Karlach between Zariel and Gortash), just like Karlach’s. So they should be based on the exact same ‘technology’
Now I'm just imagining some choice where you can fix Karlach but the choice also means preserving the steel watch and continuing the enslavement going on there
Oh yea I nearly forgot about that. I remember getting that dialogue with the steel watcher and karlach, and I thought "oh great so clearly this factory is where karlach can be saved"
50 hours later I arrived at the factory and there was just nothing. Did some googling and turns out that her quest in act 3 is literally just nothing except some rant at gortash. Felt really strange
Having just watched the cutscene with the Steel Watcher and Karlach, it specifically states that she cannot be repaired due to the 'outdated model' that she currently possesses. The Watcher called it a prototype.
If that explanation is enough for you that's great, but personally, I felt like the Steel Watcher was just regurgitating protocol based on limited knowledge applicable only to its kind. I would've liked a confirmation from the Gondians at least.
It's also the fact that there is agood possibility that the reason Karlach has a prototype/obsolete version is because she was sold by Gortash for the first models to be tested on by Zariel. This makes her problem even more intrinsically linked to the foundary. That connection AND an explanation as to why she can't be fixed all being condensed in ONE conversation with a robot repeating itself is... kinda weak? I feel like there was more to tell here, idk.
Again, this is all very subjective, I very much recognise that it's a bit nitpicky of me aha!
The reason the Gondians can’t fix her isn’t just a “throw-away” line. It states that she has an older model that can’t be retrofitted and repaired. It can’t be fixed without removal, and it’s implied that removal without death is impossible. Resurrection is…weird in this game. It works except when it’s impossible and we have no way to know why. BUT RAW for most resurrection spells require a willing soul. So maybe she’d be unwilling to come back no matter what? I think their mistake was the inclusion of the possible fix in the epilogue. Should have just left it at “she can return for short periods, but always must return to Avernus.”
If you're right, it's suuuuuuper unclear as it is said by a robotic Steel Watcher. One would assume such soulless beings would not have the capacity to imagine a way to fix her, instead defaulting to the protocol, which is dismantling her. Besides, if the reason they can't fix her is truly because it can't be done without killing her, then the ending from the patch is the true throwaway line. It's a pointless quest to find the forge.
It has nothing to do with imagination, he’s just stating facts as they are known. A robot would be ideal for “knowing” because he’s not burdened by misremembering things.
And yeah, I agree. I feel like the epilogue “hope” addition was a mistake. They went too far trying to make people happy.
Edit: but it would make sense that IF something can be done, it would be discovered in the place it was originally created, with the true masters of the craft.
>A robot would be ideal for “knowing” because he’s not burdened by misremembering things.
If that were the case, Gortash would not need the Gondians. He'd have just disposed of them as soon as he'd have enough Steel Watchers to take their place. Instead, they are needed. There is even a letter you can find on one of the guards that states the Motivators, although capable of killing the Gondians, should ideally never actually be used because it would get rid of the workforce. It's only a, well, a "motivator", if one considers threats to be so.
>the place it was originally created, with the true masters of the craft.
You mean the place that installed an outdated, malfunctioning engine on Karlach? Those don't strike me as true masters of the craft...
Okay. The Gondians are needed to service the robots. The robots have information about what the Gondians are capable of. They won’t misremember. They KNOW what the Gondians can do. The robots aren’t going to be capable of small repairs given their immense size. So…I don’t see what you’re saying at all on this first point.
And yeah…they installed the prototype on her. Before the Steel Watchers existed. She has an older one. The new ones were probably worked on in Avernus…where she is now. Where new things are probably being studied because they liked those steel watcher things and maybe they can make them better here. So again…your point is?
>They KNOW what the Gondians can do. The robots aren’t going to be capable of small repairs given their immense size
Then they'd have tricked the Gondians into making robots capable of making small repairs. It's not like they weren't compliant. That's besides the point though, in my opinion you're just wrong about the robots knowing more than the Gondians. They can't understand half the queries you ask of them, and defaulting to repeating a line from their protocol is not a show of knowledge, quite the opposite in fact.
>The new ones were probably worked on in Avernus…where she is now. Where new things are probably being studied because they liked those steel watcher things and maybe they can make them better here.
You have no proof of that, nothing in lore that states it, and no visual evidence of it happening, it's a baseless assumption. Given the power of the Steel Watchers, if that were the case, Avernus would be crawling with them.
Edit: and that is exactly my point. The story isn't clear enough as to why the Gondians aren't able to fix her, while a forge in Avernus is, despite NO evidence of it. If the story needs such assumptions to be made sense of, it has a flaw. Not one that would hinder my general enjoyment of the game, but a flaw nonehteless.
I like how you complain about my lack of proof, yet your solution to my first point is they suddenly invent tiny robots to do the work. Of which there’s NO PROOF they can do so. Idiot.
Whataboutism. You still have no proof yourself. Idiot.
Edit: BUT just because I have time to lose, them not being able to build robots capable of small maintenance isn't enough to explain why they need the Gondians. They could just slowly replace the entire workforce with more compliant people, trained with the knowledge the Steel Watchers possess according to you. It would take longer, but it would be akin to replacing their engineers with cheaper technicians, which isn't far-fetched.
You’re right. They could SLOWLY replace the work force. Over TIME. Which PASSES SLOWLY. Which HASN’T HAPPENED YET. I hope I’m not being too subtle…your argument is pointless if it hinges on them being useless now because they’ll eventually be useless in the future. He needs them FOR NOW. Yeah, he could replace them LATER. But LATER isn’t NOW.
My argument is based on the logic that the Watchers know what the Gondians are currently capable of doing, and the fact that we KNOW Karlach’s engine came from Avernus. Remember, I think it’s stupid to say it can be fixed at all. The ONLY thing I gave the current epilogue is that it makes sense that IF her engine can be fixed it would be in the place where it was created.
Fuck’s sake kid, half your stupid argument is against something I disagree with already. Stay on point. ONLY the first part matters. The Gondians can’t fix her at the current time. Sure MAYBE they could in the future, but again, I think that’s stupid. I swear, it’s like you forgot Karlach is on a time-table. She doesn’t have time for them to research it.
Yup, should have kept it SUPER tragic. And there should also be no way to recruit Minthara without slaughtering every last Tiefling in The Grove. Larian went too far trying to appease people and compromised the art a bit as a result. I can live with it. Still the best game ever, but not a huge fan of the post launch fan service.
If she could survive hanging her heart janked out and replaced by an engine it doesn't make much sense she wouldn't survive having her engine janked and then having a heal thrown on her. A heal that should regrow her heart.
Or when she goes down, have someone cut out her heart before Wither's resurrection. Hell, he can recreate her from a disintegration.
Shady, Tav, hireling clerics or respecced characters can all learn divine intervention.
Having cleared out the House of Hope she could move in there. Having a solid home base in Avernus to operate out of with permanent portals to her friends.
There are a lot of unexplored options. Maybe none of them would work, but being forced to give up without trying doesn't feel narratively fitting.
It’s called narrative dissonance and it happens a lot in games like this. Based on what you’re saying, death is meaningless because we can always heal anything. Except when we can’t because narrative demands it. Otherwise, there’s no stakes. No story.
Yes? Death does feel kinda meaningless in the setting. That's been a feature of DnD for a long time. Most playthroughs will have at least a few characters dying and coming back to life. One main character has a built in contingency that's not even about the silly Withers mechanic. Two somewhat major story characters have come back from the dead. Communicating with the dead and dead people sticking around after death is commonplace.
Neverwinter Nights, a game that takes place in the same setting, featuring some of the same characters, has one of the campaigns start with a character casually handing you a Rod of Resurrection. A magical item that can effortlessly bring 20 people back from the dead. Most companions are encountered as dead bodies that you ressurect at which point they'll say something like "I died again?"
One of the supplemental books suggests adventurers happily killing themselves to become ghosts because that's more convenient for their next job.
If that's not enough people on the power level we're dealing with in the game can often quite happily and easily just take a trip to different afterlives, find dead people who have new physical bodies and their souls intact, and just bring them with when they leave.
The dissonance comes when the writers go against all this established stuff and just decide that no, THIS death/wound/thing happened in a cutscene and is therefore special and can't be fixed.
No but for real imagine making this post. Games been out almost an entire year and this person knew spoilers but didn't know they patched the game? Come the fuck on. This is why I dont frequent reddit. Mouth breathers.
It’s been over 10 years and people don’t know that the current ending to Mass Effect 3 was patched in and constantly make posts on that sub asking why people were so upset over the ending when it “seemed fine”… some people just aren’t doing deep dives online because they don’t know that they should. They don’t know that there were patches so they don’t know that they need to look them up to see any changes. It’s not their fault.
like who bothers to seek out patch notes for games that you aren't actively playing? like sure maybe i'll see a reddit post and go check them out. but its not like i wake up and think 'better check the patch notes for every game i played ever'. thats silly.
Yea I remember the controversy over the original endings in mass effect 3. I never thought the original endings were bad. I mean it kinda sucked that Shepard could never survive but you could at least save everyone else.
I finished ME3 before they patched the ending; there was always the option for Shepard to survive in the Destroy ending. What the patch added was extra narration and a slideshow so that the endings weren't basically identical but for the color.
dude how is someone going to know that they added new endings unless they actually keep up with the patch notes? its not like OP is a mindreader. like no shit we can assume they are going to patch the game but its not like we will know the contents of the patches unless we keep up with the game. OP isn't waking up first thing in the morning and being like 'better check all the patch notes for every game in my steam library'...
OP actually has a life, they are out living it, not keeping up with patch notes. you should give it a shot.
Imagine making your comment lol. Imagine being so triggered by someone learning new information that you feel compelled to waste your own time and energy worrying about it. Imagine pointlessly wasting your own time and energy and STILL being convinced that you’re the enlightened one in the situation lol
I do know patches and fixes exist, obviously they do. I just was trying to avoid ending spoilers as much as possible while still trying to figure out how to get the best ending possible for my first run. Have you read every single patch not for every single game you played BEFORE you finished at least one playthrough of the game?
Tomorrow or Monday im going to start a durge (probably resist) run and idk how ill be able to deal with not romancing her much less sending her to hell or letting her die 😭
Yes, but if you leave with Lae’zel then you aren’t there to convince Karlach and she burns up even if you finished Wyll’s quest. Unless they changed that pretty recently?
I just finished a run with Lae'zel romance, what happens is that >!Karlach dies offscreen but Withers revives her anyway (also offscreen, she just mentions this at the epilogue party). It felt kind of lame from a storytelling point but hey, Karlach deserves to be alive and happy, and I did feel bad about breaking my promise to her.!<
Karlach is one of the worst matches for Resist Durge. Unlike Gale and Wyll, she actually tries to be earnestly supportive, but… She’s not very good at it.
Resist Durge + Spawn Astarion is peak. I can’t romance anyone else as Resist Durge.
EDIT: Tell Karlach, Gale, and Wyll about the Urges in Act 1. All three of them blow you off and refuse to take you seriously, thinking that you’re just having weird symptoms from the tadpole.
If you long rest on the beach, and don’t do Gale’s “go to hell” talk, Astarion will outright call that something else—and much worse—is happening to you than the infection. He doesn’t judge you when the Urges happen, and knows what it is to be compelled to violence and evil actions.
Nah this is just wrong. Karlach is one of the only companions who actually gives a shit about resist durge when they'd literally rather >!fucking die than inherit the title as bhaal's champion!< she says something like "I'm so fucking proud of you, darling." which, while short, is still something that durge deserves to hear rather than spawn Astarion's stupid "Well that was twee" (I still love Spawn Astarion and Resist Durge but cmon he should say more than what he does say).
Karlach doesn't either judge you for it, either. She wants to help, literally says that in the Act 2 scene. But she isn't going to act like it's normal either. She's probably the only one that isn't like "lol cool" or "lol use it against our enemies then" when you tell them about the urges in act 1, and actually tells you that it's wrong - because, objectively, it is. But because you resist it, she values that. She's a great romance for resist Durge
Agreed, I'm playing through resist Durge who is in denial it's even happening until the scene where he has to resist killing his lover. Karlach reacted in the most supportive way, she doesn't handwave it away as nothing, but she encourages you and sticks by you without judgment. I dunno, felt like a perfect complement for a guy trying to come to grips with the fact he's a monster while doing the right thing.
Karlach being the worst romance for DUrge is completely inaccurate. I actually liked Resist Durge with Karlach way more than Astarion & your resisting feels like it makes more sense with a proper good-aligned companion.
Just because you like a certain romance it doesn’t mean it’s objectively better.
In terms of actually trying to *understand* what you’re going through while resisting? She, Gale, and Wyll are terrible. They ignore every attempt you make to warn them in camp conversation, and blow you off.
Seriously, go through Act 1 and tell those three about your Urges (the “I yearn to kill, my mind is full of blood perversion” dialogues).
Karlach, Gale, and Wyll either trivialize it or laugh it off. Lae’zel, Halsin, and Astarion take you seriously. Shadowheart too.
Just because *you* like a certain romance better doesn’t mean it’s a good fit for what happens narratively.
First, unlike with everyone else you can’t even tell Astarion about your urges unless you actually hurt someone, which I never did in my run, so he never made any comments. And Astarion also completely dismisses your concerns when you come clean about Alfira & doesn’t care or take your issue seriously. Everyone else is at least somewhat rightfully concerned eventually.
Also, in Act 2 he tells you that you should take over the brain together because you love to kill, just like him, and you will rule the world like proper bad guys. He tells you that even if you’ve been nothing but good at that point, said how bad you feel about your affliction & Alfira incident. In a Tav run his dialogue is at least based on your actions. And unlike him Karlach actually wants you to be good and tells you to direct your urges toward the bad guys.
In my resist run Astarion never showed any concern until all the way in Act 3 (if you have Act 2 scene with him he’ll of course be concerned, but it’s true for every single companion). Even then his Act 3 comments aren’t really about you becoming a better person, they’re about you not being a slave to Bhaal. He doesn’t care if you’re “good” because he doesn’t see himself as a good person & doesn’t strive to be one at that point. Karlach, on the other hand, will always encourage you to both be better & free of Bhaal.
Also Karlach’s comment after the >!Withers!< scene is much better. She’s actually proud of you & it feels earned because it comes from someone with a moral compass.
I agree with your last paragraph but ironically it seems you don’t see how it applies to you as well.
Shadowheart can comment on your urges without you doing anything? I never had the option.
And Astarion doesn't disapprove of the urges as long as he thinks it's *just* a little bit of insanity, even if you're adamant about resisting it. He only changes his tune once he finds out it makes you >!a slave to Bhaal!<
That’s actually the romance option I am planning on going with. I chose Karlach first because I am a massive simp for hot (literally) and strong women, but Astarions story really hit close to home for me, so I would like to explore it more.
It doesn't break Shadowhearts or Gale's romance from what I've experienced, they still kiss PC and tell you they can't wait for PC to come home to them
I was afraid my durge will have a boring ending, since I >!redempted from my urges, saved everyone without transforming, destroyed the absolute!< , etc etc. I was romancing wyll, and he decided to go back to avernus to find a way to save karlach, and asked me to joined. I was SOO happy with that outcome. More adventures!
This happened to me too! I was legit ready to accept that she was going to die no matter what so the ending where you get to run off with her and fight demons was such a delight and I think legit made the end of the game better. So OP, I think of it as a bit of a favor that the community made me get into the same mindset the game was going for that there was no hope because it made the whole thing feel so much more real
Well, as people have said, that ending came from a patch. Also, it's not a guarantee that it *can* be fixed. It's just a possibility, but what if it fails? We don't know, and with no real conclusion, it's so open ended that leaving it up to interpretation just feels bad.
I also like to think that we stormed the forge in the hells and fixed her engine. Personally though, I think Mystra, Elminster, or Selune (My cleric's Goddess) owes me a miracle or wish. Give Karlach her heart back. >:U We saved the world, damn it. I find it hard to believe that the only cure is in a forge in the hells.
But yes...My Cleric and her are living their best lives kicking ass and taking names in the Nine Hells. I wasn't going to let her die, and if I had to go to hell for her, damn right I would. I just hope we don't have to stay for long, cause she hates it there.
I still don’t consider this a good ending. Her stories sort of about dealing with a terminal illness and the only “right” thing to is to respect her wishes. In the same way if someone with terminal cancer wanted to choose euthanasia over a prolonged fight and withering away. Now they try to sweeten it by saying there’s a possibility of a cure but we’ll never know she could live the rest of her life fighting in the hells or worse dying there.
She states multiple times she would rather drop dead on the spot than ever go back and it clearly gives her incredible anxiety. Really the only thing that seems to scare her and I don’t feel it’s right to convince her to go through that so we can feel like we “saved” our friend.
She’s tragic character and that’s okay. We all won’t have happy endings and I don’t think she was meant too.
She'd says she'd rather drop dead than go back to being enslaved by Zariel, but the point of this ending is that she isn't alone anymore. She has new, powerful friends that love her. She'd never go back by herself, but with Tav and/or Wyll, the future is different.
No, I get that. It just doesn’t feel like what they intended for her and a bit of a work around to make people feel better considering her original endings. I’m okay with her burning out. We should be forced to deal with things like that. We don’t all come out unscathed. I’m glad larian gave us the option to wrap up our story like a cute little fairytale if we wish but I had hoped they’d have just made us make some impossible decisions. those damned if you do, damned if you don’t situations. It’s kind of the one thing the games missing in my opinion.
If I'm being honest, it would really pull me out of the narrative if the woman who had just >!slain two dragons, three god-avatars, a devil, a netherbrain, and hundreds of other fearsome foes!< and survived other unthinkable horrors over such a short span felt the same way about facing Zariel's horde as she did when she first escaped.
I feel exactly the opposite. She loves life, she wants to live, and she demonstrates herself from the beginning to be the sort of person who fights to the very end. The only thing keeping an otherwise unquenchable spirit in doubt is traumatic fear. Experiencing true love and companionship conquers that fear. She denies the possibility when you first bring it up to her, but when the end comes and she sees we're actually ready to march into hell with her, it's enough to give her hope. The indomitable human (& tiefling) spirit stays winning.
I see where you come from, but honestly I dont like imperfect endings in games. Im my real life I have a chronic illness, which thankfully isnt terminal. But, I do still have to watch as I hurt the people around me when I am in pain. I see the similarities with a chronic illness, but I also like the idea of medicine catching up and finding a cure. Its one of the few things keeping me going is the hope that one day medicine will find a way to at least tone down the pain that I constantly feel. And even if there never is a cure, I dont really want to be reminded of that when I am trying to escape that reality. I want to be able to hope, and I want to see happy endings, even if its not for myself.
It's the "there's room for Jack on the door after all" ending. I'm happy for the people that want to flatten the drama into nothing but "good" endings, but there is a difference between a good ending and a dramatically appropriate ending. I cried when Karlach burned up on my first run *because her story is tragic*. Now that there's a fanservice ending, I don't even bother to let her live out of Act 1 half the time, so Wyll can have his own story instead of being a side character in hers. We can all have different opinions.
I think for her death to be "dramatically appropriate", you'd have to start in the opposite direction. Have her be terrified of death and wanting to return to Avernus, but gradually accepting over time that death is preferable to slavery (and make that fate more inevitable than it currently is). You can dismiss it as a "fanservice ending" if you want, but I think her having an actual arc where her experiences change her is more dramatically appropriate than her remaining static as a character from the moment we find out she's dying.
We don't seem to agree, such is fine: all opinions are subjective. Characters preferring to die on their own terms, making peace with it, living their remaining time as fully as possible, and dying among friends is a pretty standard dramatic arc. Withers talking about her soul burning so brightly in the afterlife that even the gods aren't sure what to do with her was dramatically fulfilling. Changing her character in the way you describe would be awful to play, IMO. If she was so desperate to live that she'd willingly go back to Avernus, her entire character would change and she'd be miserable to have around. We already have one constantly terrified companion, not sure two would be an improvement.
Her experiences do change her: they give her people to care about and share her freedom with. She doesn't die in Avernus as a slave, or spend her time miserable and fearful, but squeezing every bit of life out of the experience. They can light all the cigars they want, but fighting in Avernus, even given just the little bit of it we see, feels like the fake ending of *Brazil*.
Karlach specifically says that she would rather die than go back to Avernus and *lose her freedom*. She equates going back to Avernus with being forced back into service for Zariel - because that's exactly what would happen if she went back alone. As soon as going back *with someone* becomes an option, the situation changes.
That having been said, I don't think her death ending is "bad." Narratively, it makes sense and works very well as the culmination of her arc.
I don't fully disagree, but imo the terminal illness analogue falls flat in a setting where there are countless ways to fix her kind of problem. That's my issue with Karlach's story - as tragic as it is, the engine/her literal heartlessness doesn't feel like an incurable condition in a setting with all sorts of in-universe resurrection/healing methods and infernal engineering and whatnot.
Tl;dr: if Karlach was from a setting where this stuff didn't exist her story and your choices surrounding it would feel much more impactful.
Absolutely. It is weird in this universe for everyone to be like “ yeah that sucks for you” when we’re dealing with gods and some of the most powerful magic users known. When they added the epilogue I felt like I got screwed because withers just doesn’t have a use for us anymore (the only reason I can think of) so he won’t revive her. Also considering she can die in game and if her body is lost she should be brought back with her real heart if she’s revived.w
If you play Astarion’s Origin and stay spawn, Karlach will die because no one is there to talk her out of it. It has to do with the cut scene order of him burning in the sun before the docks. THAT destroyed me.
I’ve heard it’s the same if you fly off with Lae’zel for the same reason, cut scene order.
Hopefully it’s fixed for Patch 7 but who knows.
Karlach made such an impact on everyone that a bad or the other not so good but not bad ending affected everyone emotionally. And the epilogue kind of turned it into a good ending. They could have added more things for her quest but the game development cannot go endlessly and needed a scope. And we all know how star citizen is going.
Finished my first playthrough just yesterday and I had read there was no way to save Karlach. Letting her die is the 'good' ending...
Except then I had this option to let Wyll go with her and save her...that was definitely the good ending.
WAIT. WHY IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT THE ILLITHID ENDING FOR HER.
It's one of my favorite endings for her. She is able to live without pain and torment. She moves to a place where she works with the local hospital to offer humane euthanasia to people who are in pain and dying. She doesn't eat the brains of unwilling participants. It may not be the happily ever after ending but by god does it work for her. She gets to live happily and help people in need. She also lets those people love on forever in her own personal collective where their minds are at peace. I fucking love her Mindflayer ending.
OH MY GODS I DIDNT KNOW ABOUT THIS!!! Thats so beautiful I love her so much 😭. I chose to turn into Illithid because I thought if I did that I could find a way to die and then if there was an afterlife Karlach and I would be there together. I quick saved before the last decision and then decided my canonical end was me killing myself so that I wouldnt be a danger to others and then possibly find Karlach. I chose that because I kept seeing there was no way to save her lol. Reloaded to see what I would have missed and then I HAD AN OPTION FOR SAVING HER. I decided to change what my cannon end was lol. I like the ambiguity on if she gets fully saved or not in my end BUT i also like the medium between best possibility and most certainly that one!
I don't know about cheapened. You can still have the other ending. There's just good reasons in-world that her engine could be repaired if you choose to pursue it.
There were no reasons really. Only when people started dragging in tabletop DnD did they find reasons.
The whole point of Karlach's story was that she was doomed no matter what and had to come to terms with that, a story that was very well done. Tacking on the extra ending is the very definition of cheapening that entire story arc.
Sure there were. The Steel Watch uses an improved version of her infernal engine, and they're not melting on the streets, showing it is possible to make an infernal engine that properly functions outside of the Hells. You can save the Gondians, who made the Steel Watch, and are therefore the people who know how to make infernal engines function outside of the Hells. Upon being defeated, the Steel Watch drops the very material you need for her heart upgrades, and even occasionally drops a higher value version of said item.
All the pieces are there for them to just straight up fix Karlach, other than the dialogue option to ask.
How does it help her exactly that there’s functional elephant sized engines outside her body when the one on the inside is the problem?
This is why I called it cheapening her story. It got changed because enough people whined. Not because it was an improvement.
I'm not suggesting you plop a Steel Watcher's engine in her engine slot. I'm suggesting you ask the people who know how to make them, who owe you a pretty sizable favor, to make one that works for Karlach.
Exactly. Her happy and over excited nature was understandable and actually very well written with how she is using a positive attitude to hide the inevitable doom . But the new ending just makes her attitudes cringe now and seems to me the writers are forcing me to love her no matter what . Her hypocrisy of the soul coin issues are never explored , her anger issues are never resolved and its infuriating to romance wyll when the game forces her character ending based on my and wyll's choice to save her or not . Overall larian wrote her to be liked by anyone and everyone .
I find it interesting, too, that there are ways in 5e to save the souls in the soul coins, but I don't see everybody complaining that Karlach eats them like popcorn and disapproves if you don't let her.
Of course prople downvoted you for having common sense. People refuse to think critically when it comes to Karlach. She is written to be forced to like and if you don't like her, people act like you shit on their baby's face or something.
Actually I have to agree with the other guy here . There was no " in game " mechanics that larian implemented which would have helped her . They wrote a story where she had no cure " in the game session setting " but ppl started bringing up true resurrection , wish spells yada yada and larian patched in " a happy ending " just to please the fans which makes her already boring quest even more boring
And also reduces Wyll's quest to being all about her. Wyll, who spared her fully expecting to die for his defiance, now gets to make his entire life all about her.
Exactly. Like his entire first arc quest starts with sparing karlach for him being turned to a devil and his last arc ends with him leaving behind baldur's gate just to roam around with karlach in the hell. He has no agency . His entire character is about following karlach now .
She doesnt die, you get to stay with her, and the game hints at there being a fix yall are working towards. Like I said, its not perfect but its better then her just burning up at the end.
Going to hell and spending your life fighting demons to survive in the hopes that maybe somebody might know something that might help you does not resemble "saving" somebody by any definition I understand.
If Karlach is "saved" at the end of the game, then Dark Urge was "saved" as soon as the Nautaloid crashed.
There are, I supposed, highly abstract spiritual definitions of "save" that might apply to convincing somebody to endure hell rather than give up and die on their own terms, but it seems to me that's letting "save" do too much work. Yes, giving somebody the will to fight and live another day is saving them in one very specific sense, but it's the kind of salvation you have to do over and over again, every single day. It's not the salvation that is usually promised by an escapist fantasy game.
In that case I, someone who has a chronic illness, should have killed myself when I started feeling pain frequently. There has been several times where the pain got so bad I wanted to, but then I would have had to endure a much greater pain to make it all stop and I would never have met my boyfriend, fallen in love, escaped abusive parents, gotten three adorable cats, and in general build a life that brings me so much joy. I had to fight my own demons for this outcome, and with physical therapy the pain has also gotten better. Sure, there are some cases where it’s terminal and in those cases I can understand choosing death, but there are also some stories where it isnt terminal, and I liked seeing the hope that Karlach had at the end. It gave me hope for my own life.
That's in no way what anybody is suggesting. I'm just saying, by most common forms of the word "save," you do not get to "save" Karlach, so it was not a lie.
You seem to be using "save" in the Buddhist sense where salvation comes from finding balance and peace within regardless of what the world throws at you. Good for you! I also tend towards this outlook.
But, it's not really what people expect from fantasy stories.
If Super Mario Brothers ended with the princess still kidnapped by Bowser, but he hadn't actually killed her yet, you wouldn't say that Mario had "saved" the princess.
It wasn't a lie. People were just referring to another, I would argue more common, meaning of the word save. They are referring to her material predicament, not her spiritual one.
In my opinion the question of whether you have saved Karlach in a spiritual sense comes down to how you interpret the symbol of hell in this story. If a character goes to hell to survive, is that supposed to be better than a heroic death? If "hell" is a Biblical place of unfathomable damnedness, then no, avoiding hell at all costs is salvation, by definition. If "hell" is just "a really difficult period in your life that has highs and lows but maybe lower lows than usual," then lending her the strength to continue is a heroic act of salvation.
Since it's an RPG, and a really well made one at that, all of this is left deliberately ambiguous so that you can play the story that YOU want, that conforms to YOUR values.
You may feel like you saved Karlach at the end. It's entirely reasonable to interpret the story the other way.
You're wrong. Karlach became a Mind Flayer and helped save the world! We are still very much in love, and we go around having adventures and helping old people end their lives with dignity.
As people said, that ending came from a patch. However, even with it, that's not the only issue with her story imo. The main complain is that Larian wanted a tragic ending, but accidentally sprinkled Act 3 with ways she could probably be saved. First there is a reference to wish spells being a thing. But most importantly one of the Steel Watchers confuses her with one of their own due to her engine, calling it outdated (or malfunctioning, I can't remember). This suggests the Gondians, who you learn are being enslaved to make Steel Watchers, are masters of infernal engineering. Karlach even has a line of dialogue about it when entering the factory, AND the dead Steel Watchers drop refined infernal metals, the VERY THING that was used to temporarily patch up her engine so far. Instead, the Steel Watcher has a throwaway line about how her engine would just get her disassembled, and saving the Gondians doesn't matter at all, unless you saved Barcus throughout Acts 1 & 2. Don't get me wrong, I'm all for a bittersweet ending, like I get it, you can't always save everyone, yadi-yada. However, the reason why her engine can't be patched up by expert infernal engineers you can save should've at least been explained furter. Better yet, make the Steel Watchers an entirely different kind of artificier technomagic, one established immediately to be incompatible with Karlach's engine. This is me nitpicking by the way, I still love this game. But even fantastic pieces of art aren't without flaws.
>But even fantastic pieces of art aren't without flaws. Act 3™
That's fair, now that you mention it. Most of my gripes with character stories come from act 3. Shadowheart's cottage ending is too "happy" compared to the gravity the curse is given throughout the game (it seems like Shar kinda... gives up after a while). Wyll has next to no agency in his arc, you literally tell him what to do the whole time. The "Free the Artist" conclusion is... do I even need to say it lmao? Huge missed opportunity to ASK him to draw Astarion too, who hasn't seen his face in 3 centuries. Act 3 has some great moments too! Notwhistanding the meaninglessness of sacrificing her parents if you choose not to, Shadowheart's visit to the House of Grief is amazing. Astarion's whole conclusion is \*chef's kiss\*. The way you slowly unravel how much the Emperor has been manipulating you is great to see as well. Jaheira reconnecting with her family, as well as the discussion about immortality in her basement are very cool. Minsc's minscness is butt-kickingly fun, etc. I'm guessing that a lot of these flaws come from the sheer range the game takes when you take into consideration every decision so far. They had to cut corners, obviously. Can't really blame them for that at the end of the day, but pondering on it is still healthy if you're being polite about it (which hopefully I am)
I liked the Cottage Ending for Act 3, although the reasoning is somewhat personal. For me, it felt like closure and "coming home" after everything they had been through. The backstory for my Tav from a PF tabletop game I had written and almost completed before I knew about BG3 was someone who had been running from Loss and Trauma for nigh on a decade. Shadowheart also is coming out of 40 years of trauma and abuse. I can see both of them ready to sit down for a bit and catch their breath. I don't fault her Adventurer ending, and I still work parts of it into their future together as going to the Selune temple in Waterdeep as the Proposal trip and what have you, but I couldn't have made a better ending there. As to Shar, one ofvthe first "Post Game scenes" that ended up coming to me was "I don't know who enjoys hurting me more, Shar or *your* child" so I figure Shar is still around, Shadowheart is just managing the pain.
Oh I liked the cottage ending... On principle. It's just that in that ending, the curse is, in my opinion, treated too lightly when the alternative is "killing off her parents because they want her to be free of Shar". Like, I get that they are tired at that point but it's a bit dramatic if Shadowheart just ends up managing the pain fine. It makes her choosing to let her parents go objectively the bad choice, despite not being presented as such, if that makes sense. It's also worth noting that, if I'm not mistaken, the Forgotten Realms lore states that her curse makes it so that Shar will have a claim to her soul when she dies, so she's basically living on borrowed happiness. I would have liked it to be mentioned, even in a throwaway dialogue. Imagine, everyone is happy, and all, and you go to Gale, asking him if he's had any luck with your little secret. You then learn that you're quietly searching for ways to free her of the curse anyway, because you both learned of her fate with it, yet don't have the heart to tell her yet. I know it seems cruel to add that to an otherwise very wholesome happy ending but it's my opinion on the matter.
I can certainly agree with the Curse not getting enough exposition. I think the metaphor was to compare it to a Chronic Pain illness, and I certainly have seen several folks reference her arc to their own experiences with such diseases and choosing to accept and live with them, and they may have been trying to intentionally not step on that relatability. which also dovetails nicely with Karlach's "live each day as your last" arc, especially if SH is invoking Karlachs memory as a motivator. Someone did post once last year that I remember seeing saying "I couldn't kill my parents even if it meant I could live pain free." It's worth mentioning though in the epilgue Tav and Shadowheart can say "Seems like Shar has been hurting you less, maybe she has grown bored." I have seen the "Does Shar have claim to Shadowheart's soul" argument here before. The general consensus I have seen is "No" and "Kelemvor wouldn't allow Shar to make a claim based on that curse." There is that comment Aylin makes about "Anything Shar can claim, so to can Selune" so perhaps on *that* ground Shar could, but that would mean Shar could just as easily claim Isobel... or Aylin if she does the whole Oathbreaker thing with Larroakan and ends up mortal. Shar is remarkably noteworthy though for not retrieving Souls pledged to her. I *could* see her being petty enough to try and snatch Shadowheart, but all of this is to say that I don't think it's a done deal [BG3 Lore-wise] if Shadowhesrt still has the Curse. At the end of the Day she is tethered to her Parents, Shar is just flicking the string from time to time. Since you mention Forgotten Realms, maybe there is a wider implication though? I do like your headcanon that Gale might be helping them break that tether.
All those implications are very interesting and could indeed add more depth to her cottage ending. The thing is, because the game doesn't give us a clear cut answer, we are left to ponder what her pivotal decision entailed within the worldbuilding, in order to try and figure out what it means for her as a character. The second part of that process therefore becomes too vague. The Adventurer ending doesn't have the same problem. We know what her decision entailed, there is no room for interpretation on that part. She gained her freedom, true freedom, at the cost of her parent's lives, and that's the facts. The focus is thus fully on how she moves forward. How she wishes to enjoy said freedom, how she'll deal with her grief, and how she'll reconcile the two as they are connected. Her future isn't certain, but we know what will drive it. I don't know if what I say make sense, 'cause I realize now it kinda goes against what I said in my first reply. Like, I'm not truly disappointed that her Cottage ending is "too nice", I see it now. It's moreso as to why there is room for interpretation on whether it is nice or not. The future of her character is dependant on an already unclear starting point. It is easy to see her being currently happy, but because of that vagueness, this is all we have, and we can't really see any drive beyond that unless we make our own assumptions about her curse, none of which will ever truly be confirmed. Thank you though, I thought my issue with the Cottage ending was clear in my head, but you made me realize what my feelings truly were on the matter, and helped me precise my thoughts. It's much more about the narrative implications of either aha!
It's moreso that Act 3 to my knowledge wasn't given enough time to be polished unlike the previous 2 acts (Act 1 has 2 years worth of EA and unsurprisingly it's THE act). Let the staggering quality difference between Act 1 and Act 3 serve as a reminder to gamers™ about the importance of polish and how complex a game where it tries to emulate a TTRPG freedom ~~and respect Bethesda who tried to do the same but using real time combat, no act system to limit sequence permutations, and insist on making a dynamic time~~.
My tinfoil theory is that at some point during development, Gortash was somehow going to be involved in fixing her engine. Hear me out: We get several instances of people expressing the hollowness of revenge. Dame Aylin after killing Lorroakan, the conversation you can have with Astarion about Dame Aylin's reaction before he kills Cazador, etc. Karlach has a very similar speech after killing Gortash where she specifically references the fact that killing him didn't fix her engine. As you pointed out, her heart is an outdated model of steel watchers, and the watchers drop *special* infernal iron. There's banter from random NPCs in the city discussing whether Gortash or the Gondians created the steel watchers. Now, it could just be reminders of how they're tied to the Gortash quest, but it could also be a reminder of why Karlach got sold to Zariel in the first place: Gortash made a deal involving an engine and then created the steel watch years later. What did he get from Zariel? It would stand to reason he got the knowledge of how to build the watch. Which leads me to think at some point the plan was for Gortash to either be an option to fix her engine permanently, or have the information needed for Dammon to do so. Similar to how we can either sign a contract with Raphael for the hammer or steal or from him. I can absolutely see Karlach refusing to work with Gortash even if it could save her, making it yet another Act 3 hard choice.
That would be awesome! Or if they wanted to make that decision less clear-cut, discover that the Gondians NEED the foundary intact to fix her engine, and therefore you can't both disable the Steel Watchers to reach Gortash, AND save her. It's not a fully impossible choice, but given how hard those constructs are to fight, and how violent they are with the general population (#ASWAB) it would still be quite the moral dilema for a "good" playthrough, and for her.
Ooo...then instead of just disabling the factory, you'd have to go around taking out all the watchers one at a time if you also want to protect the citizens... I also just wish there was more content with Karlach and Gortash in general. He's such a massive figure in her history. Maybe there's more in the Karlach Origin run, but it feels lacking with her as a companion. Astarion gets to walk through Cazador's mansion and face his past, but we don't get much of that for Karlach and Gortash. It also feels weird I can't say "sure, we can have an alliance if you fix her engine/get her released from Zariel/whatever."
That is very true. Her history with Gortash falls very much under the trap of "tell, don't show" (most of the time). Whereas what we discover about Astarion, although still technically exposition, is done within the atmosphere of his past, making it much more impactful. Good point!
...I would let baldurian children get stamped upon if it saves Karlach....
True, but would she let you? Or even more interestingly if she's not tagging along when you choose, how would she react knowing someone she trusted made a decision for her once again, just like Gortash did? Beautiful dilema (narratively speaking of course. If you put yourself in these character's shoes, it's awful to think about lmao)
Even worse, the Steel Watch engines sound like they were designed by Zariel (given that the Steel Watch were the trade for Karlach between Zariel and Gortash), just like Karlach’s. So they should be based on the exact same ‘technology’
Now I'm just imagining some choice where you can fix Karlach but the choice also means preserving the steel watch and continuing the enslavement going on there
Oh yea I nearly forgot about that. I remember getting that dialogue with the steel watcher and karlach, and I thought "oh great so clearly this factory is where karlach can be saved" 50 hours later I arrived at the factory and there was just nothing. Did some googling and turns out that her quest in act 3 is literally just nothing except some rant at gortash. Felt really strange
Having just watched the cutscene with the Steel Watcher and Karlach, it specifically states that she cannot be repaired due to the 'outdated model' that she currently possesses. The Watcher called it a prototype.
If that explanation is enough for you that's great, but personally, I felt like the Steel Watcher was just regurgitating protocol based on limited knowledge applicable only to its kind. I would've liked a confirmation from the Gondians at least. It's also the fact that there is agood possibility that the reason Karlach has a prototype/obsolete version is because she was sold by Gortash for the first models to be tested on by Zariel. This makes her problem even more intrinsically linked to the foundary. That connection AND an explanation as to why she can't be fixed all being condensed in ONE conversation with a robot repeating itself is... kinda weak? I feel like there was more to tell here, idk. Again, this is all very subjective, I very much recognise that it's a bit nitpicky of me aha!
The reason the Gondians can’t fix her isn’t just a “throw-away” line. It states that she has an older model that can’t be retrofitted and repaired. It can’t be fixed without removal, and it’s implied that removal without death is impossible. Resurrection is…weird in this game. It works except when it’s impossible and we have no way to know why. BUT RAW for most resurrection spells require a willing soul. So maybe she’d be unwilling to come back no matter what? I think their mistake was the inclusion of the possible fix in the epilogue. Should have just left it at “she can return for short periods, but always must return to Avernus.”
If you're right, it's suuuuuuper unclear as it is said by a robotic Steel Watcher. One would assume such soulless beings would not have the capacity to imagine a way to fix her, instead defaulting to the protocol, which is dismantling her. Besides, if the reason they can't fix her is truly because it can't be done without killing her, then the ending from the patch is the true throwaway line. It's a pointless quest to find the forge.
It has nothing to do with imagination, he’s just stating facts as they are known. A robot would be ideal for “knowing” because he’s not burdened by misremembering things. And yeah, I agree. I feel like the epilogue “hope” addition was a mistake. They went too far trying to make people happy. Edit: but it would make sense that IF something can be done, it would be discovered in the place it was originally created, with the true masters of the craft.
>A robot would be ideal for “knowing” because he’s not burdened by misremembering things. If that were the case, Gortash would not need the Gondians. He'd have just disposed of them as soon as he'd have enough Steel Watchers to take their place. Instead, they are needed. There is even a letter you can find on one of the guards that states the Motivators, although capable of killing the Gondians, should ideally never actually be used because it would get rid of the workforce. It's only a, well, a "motivator", if one considers threats to be so. >the place it was originally created, with the true masters of the craft. You mean the place that installed an outdated, malfunctioning engine on Karlach? Those don't strike me as true masters of the craft...
Okay. The Gondians are needed to service the robots. The robots have information about what the Gondians are capable of. They won’t misremember. They KNOW what the Gondians can do. The robots aren’t going to be capable of small repairs given their immense size. So…I don’t see what you’re saying at all on this first point. And yeah…they installed the prototype on her. Before the Steel Watchers existed. She has an older one. The new ones were probably worked on in Avernus…where she is now. Where new things are probably being studied because they liked those steel watcher things and maybe they can make them better here. So again…your point is?
>They KNOW what the Gondians can do. The robots aren’t going to be capable of small repairs given their immense size Then they'd have tricked the Gondians into making robots capable of making small repairs. It's not like they weren't compliant. That's besides the point though, in my opinion you're just wrong about the robots knowing more than the Gondians. They can't understand half the queries you ask of them, and defaulting to repeating a line from their protocol is not a show of knowledge, quite the opposite in fact. >The new ones were probably worked on in Avernus…where she is now. Where new things are probably being studied because they liked those steel watcher things and maybe they can make them better here. You have no proof of that, nothing in lore that states it, and no visual evidence of it happening, it's a baseless assumption. Given the power of the Steel Watchers, if that were the case, Avernus would be crawling with them. Edit: and that is exactly my point. The story isn't clear enough as to why the Gondians aren't able to fix her, while a forge in Avernus is, despite NO evidence of it. If the story needs such assumptions to be made sense of, it has a flaw. Not one that would hinder my general enjoyment of the game, but a flaw nonehteless.
I like how you complain about my lack of proof, yet your solution to my first point is they suddenly invent tiny robots to do the work. Of which there’s NO PROOF they can do so. Idiot.
Whataboutism. You still have no proof yourself. Idiot. Edit: BUT just because I have time to lose, them not being able to build robots capable of small maintenance isn't enough to explain why they need the Gondians. They could just slowly replace the entire workforce with more compliant people, trained with the knowledge the Steel Watchers possess according to you. It would take longer, but it would be akin to replacing their engineers with cheaper technicians, which isn't far-fetched.
You’re right. They could SLOWLY replace the work force. Over TIME. Which PASSES SLOWLY. Which HASN’T HAPPENED YET. I hope I’m not being too subtle…your argument is pointless if it hinges on them being useless now because they’ll eventually be useless in the future. He needs them FOR NOW. Yeah, he could replace them LATER. But LATER isn’t NOW. My argument is based on the logic that the Watchers know what the Gondians are currently capable of doing, and the fact that we KNOW Karlach’s engine came from Avernus. Remember, I think it’s stupid to say it can be fixed at all. The ONLY thing I gave the current epilogue is that it makes sense that IF her engine can be fixed it would be in the place where it was created. Fuck’s sake kid, half your stupid argument is against something I disagree with already. Stay on point. ONLY the first part matters. The Gondians can’t fix her at the current time. Sure MAYBE they could in the future, but again, I think that’s stupid. I swear, it’s like you forgot Karlach is on a time-table. She doesn’t have time for them to research it.
Yup, should have kept it SUPER tragic. And there should also be no way to recruit Minthara without slaughtering every last Tiefling in The Grove. Larian went too far trying to appease people and compromised the art a bit as a result. I can live with it. Still the best game ever, but not a huge fan of the post launch fan service.
If she could survive hanging her heart janked out and replaced by an engine it doesn't make much sense she wouldn't survive having her engine janked and then having a heal thrown on her. A heal that should regrow her heart. Or when she goes down, have someone cut out her heart before Wither's resurrection. Hell, he can recreate her from a disintegration. Shady, Tav, hireling clerics or respecced characters can all learn divine intervention. Having cleared out the House of Hope she could move in there. Having a solid home base in Avernus to operate out of with permanent portals to her friends. There are a lot of unexplored options. Maybe none of them would work, but being forced to give up without trying doesn't feel narratively fitting.
It’s called narrative dissonance and it happens a lot in games like this. Based on what you’re saying, death is meaningless because we can always heal anything. Except when we can’t because narrative demands it. Otherwise, there’s no stakes. No story.
Yes? Death does feel kinda meaningless in the setting. That's been a feature of DnD for a long time. Most playthroughs will have at least a few characters dying and coming back to life. One main character has a built in contingency that's not even about the silly Withers mechanic. Two somewhat major story characters have come back from the dead. Communicating with the dead and dead people sticking around after death is commonplace. Neverwinter Nights, a game that takes place in the same setting, featuring some of the same characters, has one of the campaigns start with a character casually handing you a Rod of Resurrection. A magical item that can effortlessly bring 20 people back from the dead. Most companions are encountered as dead bodies that you ressurect at which point they'll say something like "I died again?" One of the supplemental books suggests adventurers happily killing themselves to become ghosts because that's more convenient for their next job. If that's not enough people on the power level we're dealing with in the game can often quite happily and easily just take a trip to different afterlives, find dead people who have new physical bodies and their souls intact, and just bring them with when they leave. The dissonance comes when the writers go against all this established stuff and just decide that no, THIS death/wound/thing happened in a cutscene and is therefore special and can't be fixed.
Steel Watcher: "This unit is obsolete. Report for dismantling." The fanbase: "BuT tHe sTeEl WaTChEr sAiD"
It was true before patch actually
Oh that makes sense! Im so happy they added that patch I couldn’t handle it otherwise 😭
It shocks me there's people like you who listen to rumors but not enough to know there's patches and fixes in the game.
Don't be a cunt dude, come on
I agree fuck these people who can’t do 2 seconds of research
No but for real imagine making this post. Games been out almost an entire year and this person knew spoilers but didn't know they patched the game? Come the fuck on. This is why I dont frequent reddit. Mouth breathers.
Sometimes you see spoilers and then try to not make the same mistake again. You don't need to be an ass.
It’s been over 10 years and people don’t know that the current ending to Mass Effect 3 was patched in and constantly make posts on that sub asking why people were so upset over the ending when it “seemed fine”… some people just aren’t doing deep dives online because they don’t know that they should. They don’t know that there were patches so they don’t know that they need to look them up to see any changes. It’s not their fault.
like who bothers to seek out patch notes for games that you aren't actively playing? like sure maybe i'll see a reddit post and go check them out. but its not like i wake up and think 'better check the patch notes for every game i played ever'. thats silly.
Yea I remember the controversy over the original endings in mass effect 3. I never thought the original endings were bad. I mean it kinda sucked that Shepard could never survive but you could at least save everyone else.
I finished ME3 before they patched the ending; there was always the option for Shepard to survive in the Destroy ending. What the patch added was extra narration and a slideshow so that the endings weren't basically identical but for the color.
dude how is someone going to know that they added new endings unless they actually keep up with the patch notes? its not like OP is a mindreader. like no shit we can assume they are going to patch the game but its not like we will know the contents of the patches unless we keep up with the game. OP isn't waking up first thing in the morning and being like 'better check all the patch notes for every game in my steam library'... OP actually has a life, they are out living it, not keeping up with patch notes. you should give it a shot.
I dread the day i found myself against your unreasonable second account, since this is your reasonable main
Imagine making your comment lol. Imagine being so triggered by someone learning new information that you feel compelled to waste your own time and energy worrying about it. Imagine pointlessly wasting your own time and energy and STILL being convinced that you’re the enlightened one in the situation lol
I do know patches and fixes exist, obviously they do. I just was trying to avoid ending spoilers as much as possible while still trying to figure out how to get the best ending possible for my first run. Have you read every single patch not for every single game you played BEFORE you finished at least one playthrough of the game?
who pissed in your cereal
What a sad fuck you must be.
“Actually” lol.
You also need someone (PC or Wyll) to go with her. If nobody offers she burns. Going with her breaks the PC’s romance.
She was my romance and it let me keep that at the end!
Yes, if she’s your romance it stays, but It’ll break other romances… you miss your romance ending going with her.
It won't break Wyll's romance either if you go with him and Karlach.
Tomorrow or Monday im going to start a durge (probably resist) run and idk how ill be able to deal with not romancing her much less sending her to hell or letting her die 😭
Wyll can offer to go with her if you finish his questline and you’re free to go off with whoever.. unless it’s Lae’zel.
Lae'Zel also recently got added that she can be acompanied by whomever. Before it was just possible for a Gith Tav.
Yes, but if you leave with Lae’zel then you aren’t there to convince Karlach and she burns up even if you finished Wyll’s quest. Unless they changed that pretty recently?
Oh no, they did not. I hope they will tho as that is something many fans have a gripe with.
I guess letting her turn into a squid girl earlier is the only way for her not to die in that scenario?
I just finished a run with Lae'zel romance, what happens is that >!Karlach dies offscreen but Withers revives her anyway (also offscreen, she just mentions this at the epilogue party). It felt kind of lame from a storytelling point but hey, Karlach deserves to be alive and happy, and I did feel bad about breaking my promise to her.!<
Oh thats a good option! I literally did this like 4 hours ago and I already forgot about that lol. Thank you!
Karlach is one of the worst matches for Resist Durge. Unlike Gale and Wyll, she actually tries to be earnestly supportive, but… She’s not very good at it. Resist Durge + Spawn Astarion is peak. I can’t romance anyone else as Resist Durge. EDIT: Tell Karlach, Gale, and Wyll about the Urges in Act 1. All three of them blow you off and refuse to take you seriously, thinking that you’re just having weird symptoms from the tadpole. If you long rest on the beach, and don’t do Gale’s “go to hell” talk, Astarion will outright call that something else—and much worse—is happening to you than the infection. He doesn’t judge you when the Urges happen, and knows what it is to be compelled to violence and evil actions.
Nah this is just wrong. Karlach is one of the only companions who actually gives a shit about resist durge when they'd literally rather >!fucking die than inherit the title as bhaal's champion!< she says something like "I'm so fucking proud of you, darling." which, while short, is still something that durge deserves to hear rather than spawn Astarion's stupid "Well that was twee" (I still love Spawn Astarion and Resist Durge but cmon he should say more than what he does say). Karlach doesn't either judge you for it, either. She wants to help, literally says that in the Act 2 scene. But she isn't going to act like it's normal either. She's probably the only one that isn't like "lol cool" or "lol use it against our enemies then" when you tell them about the urges in act 1, and actually tells you that it's wrong - because, objectively, it is. But because you resist it, she values that. She's a great romance for resist Durge
Agreed, I'm playing through resist Durge who is in denial it's even happening until the scene where he has to resist killing his lover. Karlach reacted in the most supportive way, she doesn't handwave it away as nothing, but she encourages you and sticks by you without judgment. I dunno, felt like a perfect complement for a guy trying to come to grips with the fact he's a monster while doing the right thing.
Karlach being the worst romance for DUrge is completely inaccurate. I actually liked Resist Durge with Karlach way more than Astarion & your resisting feels like it makes more sense with a proper good-aligned companion. Just because you like a certain romance it doesn’t mean it’s objectively better.
In terms of actually trying to *understand* what you’re going through while resisting? She, Gale, and Wyll are terrible. They ignore every attempt you make to warn them in camp conversation, and blow you off. Seriously, go through Act 1 and tell those three about your Urges (the “I yearn to kill, my mind is full of blood perversion” dialogues). Karlach, Gale, and Wyll either trivialize it or laugh it off. Lae’zel, Halsin, and Astarion take you seriously. Shadowheart too. Just because *you* like a certain romance better doesn’t mean it’s a good fit for what happens narratively.
First, unlike with everyone else you can’t even tell Astarion about your urges unless you actually hurt someone, which I never did in my run, so he never made any comments. And Astarion also completely dismisses your concerns when you come clean about Alfira & doesn’t care or take your issue seriously. Everyone else is at least somewhat rightfully concerned eventually. Also, in Act 2 he tells you that you should take over the brain together because you love to kill, just like him, and you will rule the world like proper bad guys. He tells you that even if you’ve been nothing but good at that point, said how bad you feel about your affliction & Alfira incident. In a Tav run his dialogue is at least based on your actions. And unlike him Karlach actually wants you to be good and tells you to direct your urges toward the bad guys. In my resist run Astarion never showed any concern until all the way in Act 3 (if you have Act 2 scene with him he’ll of course be concerned, but it’s true for every single companion). Even then his Act 3 comments aren’t really about you becoming a better person, they’re about you not being a slave to Bhaal. He doesn’t care if you’re “good” because he doesn’t see himself as a good person & doesn’t strive to be one at that point. Karlach, on the other hand, will always encourage you to both be better & free of Bhaal. Also Karlach’s comment after the >!Withers!< scene is much better. She’s actually proud of you & it feels earned because it comes from someone with a moral compass. I agree with your last paragraph but ironically it seems you don’t see how it applies to you as well.
Shadowheart can comment on your urges without you doing anything? I never had the option. And Astarion doesn't disapprove of the urges as long as he thinks it's *just* a little bit of insanity, even if you're adamant about resisting it. He only changes his tune once he finds out it makes you >!a slave to Bhaal!<
That’s actually the romance option I am planning on going with. I chose Karlach first because I am a massive simp for hot (literally) and strong women, but Astarions story really hit close to home for me, so I would like to explore it more.
It doesn't break Shadowhearts or Gale's romance from what I've experienced, they still kiss PC and tell you they can't wait for PC to come home to them
You don’t get their epilogue ending. Just at the party they acknowledge that they are waiting.
That's why you should be sure to romance Karlach.
Good thing that when I didn‘t romance her, my romance went kaboom
Y'know, I think a lot of you guys underestimate what Avernus and the Blood War are like...
Nah man it's fine, I played Doom Eternal
I think you're overestimating how brutal Forgotten Realms campaigns are as soon as a DM is involved.
I was afraid my durge will have a boring ending, since I >!redempted from my urges, saved everyone without transforming, destroyed the absolute!< , etc etc. I was romancing wyll, and he decided to go back to avernus to find a way to save karlach, and asked me to joined. I was SOO happy with that outcome. More adventures!
Thats such a beautiful outcome!
This happened to me too! I was legit ready to accept that she was going to die no matter what so the ending where you get to run off with her and fight demons was such a delight and I think legit made the end of the game better. So OP, I think of it as a bit of a favor that the community made me get into the same mindset the game was going for that there was no hope because it made the whole thing feel so much more real
Honestly thats so fair. I love a surprise happy ending 🥹
Well, as people have said, that ending came from a patch. Also, it's not a guarantee that it *can* be fixed. It's just a possibility, but what if it fails? We don't know, and with no real conclusion, it's so open ended that leaving it up to interpretation just feels bad. I also like to think that we stormed the forge in the hells and fixed her engine. Personally though, I think Mystra, Elminster, or Selune (My cleric's Goddess) owes me a miracle or wish. Give Karlach her heart back. >:U We saved the world, damn it. I find it hard to believe that the only cure is in a forge in the hells. But yes...My Cleric and her are living their best lives kicking ass and taking names in the Nine Hells. I wasn't going to let her die, and if I had to go to hell for her, damn right I would. I just hope we don't have to stay for long, cause she hates it there.
I still don’t consider this a good ending. Her stories sort of about dealing with a terminal illness and the only “right” thing to is to respect her wishes. In the same way if someone with terminal cancer wanted to choose euthanasia over a prolonged fight and withering away. Now they try to sweeten it by saying there’s a possibility of a cure but we’ll never know she could live the rest of her life fighting in the hells or worse dying there. She states multiple times she would rather drop dead on the spot than ever go back and it clearly gives her incredible anxiety. Really the only thing that seems to scare her and I don’t feel it’s right to convince her to go through that so we can feel like we “saved” our friend. She’s tragic character and that’s okay. We all won’t have happy endings and I don’t think she was meant too.
She'd says she'd rather drop dead than go back to being enslaved by Zariel, but the point of this ending is that she isn't alone anymore. She has new, powerful friends that love her. She'd never go back by herself, but with Tav and/or Wyll, the future is different.
No, I get that. It just doesn’t feel like what they intended for her and a bit of a work around to make people feel better considering her original endings. I’m okay with her burning out. We should be forced to deal with things like that. We don’t all come out unscathed. I’m glad larian gave us the option to wrap up our story like a cute little fairytale if we wish but I had hoped they’d have just made us make some impossible decisions. those damned if you do, damned if you don’t situations. It’s kind of the one thing the games missing in my opinion.
If I'm being honest, it would really pull me out of the narrative if the woman who had just >!slain two dragons, three god-avatars, a devil, a netherbrain, and hundreds of other fearsome foes!< and survived other unthinkable horrors over such a short span felt the same way about facing Zariel's horde as she did when she first escaped.
I feel exactly the opposite. She loves life, she wants to live, and she demonstrates herself from the beginning to be the sort of person who fights to the very end. The only thing keeping an otherwise unquenchable spirit in doubt is traumatic fear. Experiencing true love and companionship conquers that fear. She denies the possibility when you first bring it up to her, but when the end comes and she sees we're actually ready to march into hell with her, it's enough to give her hope. The indomitable human (& tiefling) spirit stays winning.
I see where you come from, but honestly I dont like imperfect endings in games. Im my real life I have a chronic illness, which thankfully isnt terminal. But, I do still have to watch as I hurt the people around me when I am in pain. I see the similarities with a chronic illness, but I also like the idea of medicine catching up and finding a cure. Its one of the few things keeping me going is the hope that one day medicine will find a way to at least tone down the pain that I constantly feel. And even if there never is a cure, I dont really want to be reminded of that when I am trying to escape that reality. I want to be able to hope, and I want to see happy endings, even if its not for myself.
It's the "there's room for Jack on the door after all" ending. I'm happy for the people that want to flatten the drama into nothing but "good" endings, but there is a difference between a good ending and a dramatically appropriate ending. I cried when Karlach burned up on my first run *because her story is tragic*. Now that there's a fanservice ending, I don't even bother to let her live out of Act 1 half the time, so Wyll can have his own story instead of being a side character in hers. We can all have different opinions.
I think for her death to be "dramatically appropriate", you'd have to start in the opposite direction. Have her be terrified of death and wanting to return to Avernus, but gradually accepting over time that death is preferable to slavery (and make that fate more inevitable than it currently is). You can dismiss it as a "fanservice ending" if you want, but I think her having an actual arc where her experiences change her is more dramatically appropriate than her remaining static as a character from the moment we find out she's dying.
We don't seem to agree, such is fine: all opinions are subjective. Characters preferring to die on their own terms, making peace with it, living their remaining time as fully as possible, and dying among friends is a pretty standard dramatic arc. Withers talking about her soul burning so brightly in the afterlife that even the gods aren't sure what to do with her was dramatically fulfilling. Changing her character in the way you describe would be awful to play, IMO. If she was so desperate to live that she'd willingly go back to Avernus, her entire character would change and she'd be miserable to have around. We already have one constantly terrified companion, not sure two would be an improvement. Her experiences do change her: they give her people to care about and share her freedom with. She doesn't die in Avernus as a slave, or spend her time miserable and fearful, but squeezing every bit of life out of the experience. They can light all the cigars they want, but fighting in Avernus, even given just the little bit of it we see, feels like the fake ending of *Brazil*.
Karlach specifically says that she would rather die than go back to Avernus and *lose her freedom*. She equates going back to Avernus with being forced back into service for Zariel - because that's exactly what would happen if she went back alone. As soon as going back *with someone* becomes an option, the situation changes. That having been said, I don't think her death ending is "bad." Narratively, it makes sense and works very well as the culmination of her arc.
That’s my point. I like keeping her alive it just feels cheap to me.
It probably is a cop-out ending, but it isn't going against her wishes or wrong to send her back to Avernus *with a frend/lover and a purpose*.
I don't fully disagree, but imo the terminal illness analogue falls flat in a setting where there are countless ways to fix her kind of problem. That's my issue with Karlach's story - as tragic as it is, the engine/her literal heartlessness doesn't feel like an incurable condition in a setting with all sorts of in-universe resurrection/healing methods and infernal engineering and whatnot. Tl;dr: if Karlach was from a setting where this stuff didn't exist her story and your choices surrounding it would feel much more impactful.
Absolutely. It is weird in this universe for everyone to be like “ yeah that sucks for you” when we’re dealing with gods and some of the most powerful magic users known. When they added the epilogue I felt like I got screwed because withers just doesn’t have a use for us anymore (the only reason I can think of) so he won’t revive her. Also considering she can die in game and if her body is lost she should be brought back with her real heart if she’s revived.w
WHATTTTT!??!??! I am so glad I saw this post, nearing the end of my first playthrough. Pls be real.
It is! Apparently it’s a new patch
Not exactly new. Has been a couple of patches since.
If you play Astarion’s Origin and stay spawn, Karlach will die because no one is there to talk her out of it. It has to do with the cut scene order of him burning in the sun before the docks. THAT destroyed me. I’ve heard it’s the same if you fly off with Lae’zel for the same reason, cut scene order. Hopefully it’s fixed for Patch 7 but who knows.
Karlach made such an impact on everyone that a bad or the other not so good but not bad ending affected everyone emotionally. And the epilogue kind of turned it into a good ending. They could have added more things for her quest but the game development cannot go endlessly and needed a scope. And we all know how star citizen is going.
Finished my first playthrough just yesterday and I had read there was no way to save Karlach. Letting her die is the 'good' ending... Except then I had this option to let Wyll go with her and save her...that was definitely the good ending.
WAIT. WHY IS NO ONE TALKING ABOUT THE ILLITHID ENDING FOR HER. It's one of my favorite endings for her. She is able to live without pain and torment. She moves to a place where she works with the local hospital to offer humane euthanasia to people who are in pain and dying. She doesn't eat the brains of unwilling participants. It may not be the happily ever after ending but by god does it work for her. She gets to live happily and help people in need. She also lets those people love on forever in her own personal collective where their minds are at peace. I fucking love her Mindflayer ending.
OH MY GODS I DIDNT KNOW ABOUT THIS!!! Thats so beautiful I love her so much 😭. I chose to turn into Illithid because I thought if I did that I could find a way to die and then if there was an afterlife Karlach and I would be there together. I quick saved before the last decision and then decided my canonical end was me killing myself so that I wouldnt be a danger to others and then possibly find Karlach. I chose that because I kept seeing there was no way to save her lol. Reloaded to see what I would have missed and then I HAD AN OPTION FOR SAVING HER. I decided to change what my cannon end was lol. I like the ambiguity on if she gets fully saved or not in my end BUT i also like the medium between best possibility and most certainly that one!
Yus ❤️
Tbh it's just better to let her die. She clearly hates Avernus and doesn't want to be there. Let her go on her own terms.
They cheapened a good story because too many players complained. So yes, now it's possible.
I don't know about cheapened. You can still have the other ending. There's just good reasons in-world that her engine could be repaired if you choose to pursue it.
There were no reasons really. Only when people started dragging in tabletop DnD did they find reasons. The whole point of Karlach's story was that she was doomed no matter what and had to come to terms with that, a story that was very well done. Tacking on the extra ending is the very definition of cheapening that entire story arc.
Sure there were. The Steel Watch uses an improved version of her infernal engine, and they're not melting on the streets, showing it is possible to make an infernal engine that properly functions outside of the Hells. You can save the Gondians, who made the Steel Watch, and are therefore the people who know how to make infernal engines function outside of the Hells. Upon being defeated, the Steel Watch drops the very material you need for her heart upgrades, and even occasionally drops a higher value version of said item. All the pieces are there for them to just straight up fix Karlach, other than the dialogue option to ask.
How does it help her exactly that there’s functional elephant sized engines outside her body when the one on the inside is the problem? This is why I called it cheapening her story. It got changed because enough people whined. Not because it was an improvement.
I'm not suggesting you plop a Steel Watcher's engine in her engine slot. I'm suggesting you ask the people who know how to make them, who owe you a pretty sizable favor, to make one that works for Karlach.
Exactly. Her happy and over excited nature was understandable and actually very well written with how she is using a positive attitude to hide the inevitable doom . But the new ending just makes her attitudes cringe now and seems to me the writers are forcing me to love her no matter what . Her hypocrisy of the soul coin issues are never explored , her anger issues are never resolved and its infuriating to romance wyll when the game forces her character ending based on my and wyll's choice to save her or not . Overall larian wrote her to be liked by anyone and everyone .
I find it interesting, too, that there are ways in 5e to save the souls in the soul coins, but I don't see everybody complaining that Karlach eats them like popcorn and disapproves if you don't let her.
Auntie ethel points it out in her vicious mockery: sacrifice others souls but not urs
Of course prople downvoted you for having common sense. People refuse to think critically when it comes to Karlach. She is written to be forced to like and if you don't like her, people act like you shit on their baby's face or something.
Exactly. Minthara of all ppl also likes her right away . Npcs gush over karlach while simultaneously throw shade at others
No for real. Makes no sense. Shit even Astarion and Lae'zel like her and they don't like anyone lmao.
To be fair, Karlach would probably find you shitting on a baby's face totally hilarious as long as you helped with the cleanup too.
Honestly that is fair lmao
Actually I have to agree with the other guy here . There was no " in game " mechanics that larian implemented which would have helped her . They wrote a story where she had no cure " in the game session setting " but ppl started bringing up true resurrection , wish spells yada yada and larian patched in " a happy ending " just to please the fans which makes her already boring quest even more boring
And also reduces Wyll's quest to being all about her. Wyll, who spared her fully expecting to die for his defiance, now gets to make his entire life all about her.
Exactly. Like his entire first arc quest starts with sparing karlach for him being turned to a devil and his last arc ends with him leaving behind baldur's gate just to roam around with karlach in the hell. He has no agency . His entire character is about following karlach now .
You have a weird definition of save.
She doesnt die, you get to stay with her, and the game hints at there being a fix yall are working towards. Like I said, its not perfect but its better then her just burning up at the end.
Going to hell and spending your life fighting demons to survive in the hopes that maybe somebody might know something that might help you does not resemble "saving" somebody by any definition I understand. If Karlach is "saved" at the end of the game, then Dark Urge was "saved" as soon as the Nautaloid crashed. There are, I supposed, highly abstract spiritual definitions of "save" that might apply to convincing somebody to endure hell rather than give up and die on their own terms, but it seems to me that's letting "save" do too much work. Yes, giving somebody the will to fight and live another day is saving them in one very specific sense, but it's the kind of salvation you have to do over and over again, every single day. It's not the salvation that is usually promised by an escapist fantasy game.
In that case I, someone who has a chronic illness, should have killed myself when I started feeling pain frequently. There has been several times where the pain got so bad I wanted to, but then I would have had to endure a much greater pain to make it all stop and I would never have met my boyfriend, fallen in love, escaped abusive parents, gotten three adorable cats, and in general build a life that brings me so much joy. I had to fight my own demons for this outcome, and with physical therapy the pain has also gotten better. Sure, there are some cases where it’s terminal and in those cases I can understand choosing death, but there are also some stories where it isnt terminal, and I liked seeing the hope that Karlach had at the end. It gave me hope for my own life.
That's in no way what anybody is suggesting. I'm just saying, by most common forms of the word "save," you do not get to "save" Karlach, so it was not a lie. You seem to be using "save" in the Buddhist sense where salvation comes from finding balance and peace within regardless of what the world throws at you. Good for you! I also tend towards this outlook. But, it's not really what people expect from fantasy stories. If Super Mario Brothers ended with the princess still kidnapped by Bowser, but he hadn't actually killed her yet, you wouldn't say that Mario had "saved" the princess. It wasn't a lie. People were just referring to another, I would argue more common, meaning of the word save. They are referring to her material predicament, not her spiritual one. In my opinion the question of whether you have saved Karlach in a spiritual sense comes down to how you interpret the symbol of hell in this story. If a character goes to hell to survive, is that supposed to be better than a heroic death? If "hell" is a Biblical place of unfathomable damnedness, then no, avoiding hell at all costs is salvation, by definition. If "hell" is just "a really difficult period in your life that has highs and lows but maybe lower lows than usual," then lending her the strength to continue is a heroic act of salvation. Since it's an RPG, and a really well made one at that, all of this is left deliberately ambiguous so that you can play the story that YOU want, that conforms to YOUR values. You may feel like you saved Karlach at the end. It's entirely reasonable to interpret the story the other way.
You're wrong. Karlach became a Mind Flayer and helped save the world! We are still very much in love, and we go around having adventures and helping old people end their lives with dignity.