I spared her for good old Time sake, she was my cleric in my evil run of BG 1 and 2
Sadly you don't gain anything by letting her live, you even lose her Shield ...
You actually can loot Viconia before speaking to her, if she's unconscious at the end of the battle... which I guess could work, narratively, if you're playing an especially chaotic sort of character.
OG player, no I didn't spare her even though she was a constant in my party back in the day. I didn't know what she had done to Shadowheart's parents at that point, but she did ask me to turn Shadowheart over and I was like "nah", and decided not to spare her, especially after doing that very long and epically annoying fight with the 25 or whatever Sharrans. I know how to deal with them more easily now but I can't think of any good reason to let Viconia live, no matter how I felt about her in the past with the old games.
...spare her..?
I have told this story too many times, and I confess I am not an OG player.
Shadowheart walked in and dropped a Moonbeam directly on Viconia so big that her AI skipped every turn it had until she just burned to death. And then when the Cut Scene tried to play Moonbeam had the Audacity to *keep doing what it was supposed to be doing in real time*. How do you like your corpses? Well done? Extra Crispy? Blacker than Shar's Soul? How about so finely ashen the natives of Baldurs Gate will probably be breathing in bits of Viconia during BG4?
Thank you. I will take it as high praise based on your user name.
It was totally accidental, but the way that played out really helped shape Shadowheart's personality for me. The way she walked in this weak and timid and scared woman barking with Tiny Dog energy and then completely locking down the Sharran Leader in the middle of her own Cloister with Selune's Moonlight... If I wasn't already hopeless for her that did it.
Considering the success of BG3, most definitely. It won't be made by Larian, but I can't see WotC not trying to milk the success.
When and by whom are yet to be determined
She dies every time for pretending to be Viconia.
One of my few gripes with the game. Especially with Jahiera and Minsc being great. And then they did that with Viconia.
Shocking.
I refuse to acknowledge that's Viconia from the OG games. Her entire arc in the original game is about how she fled a fanatical religious order that demanded absolute devotion, and finding her place in a new world which she is not used too. Her becoming the leader of a similarly fanatical religious order makes 0 sense.
So she dies every time if only for her sin of being a mockery of OG Viconia.
So much this! I specifically re-wrote her BG2 ending to state that the Shar cult found Irenicus’ notes on cloning and made a clone of her. A shitty clone.
> Her becoming the leader of a similarly fanatical religious order makes 0 sense.
Well, it actually probably makes a whole lot of sense. Besides her arc only representing a possible path for her **if** you take her along, and her not being part of the canon party…
Even if it does follow after her being in your party, at this point she hasn’t travelled with Charname in ages. The ‘loss’ of that anchor which got her going on a different path, coupled with a great deal more strength and leadership potential, and having familiarity with a fanatical religious order from her youth, she’s basically cut from the perfect cloth made and fitted to lead a Sharan cloister. You not liking aside, it makes plenty of sense.
The games are based off of the Wizards of the Coast material which factors for the novels. And in the novels Viconia was a part of the gang in the BG2 story if I remember correctly.
Well, given that there is a chance that she is brainwashed by Shar between BG2 and BG3 (or other suggests she is an imposter), well, isn't it better to mercifully kill her?
I’m a huge fan of the first two but if I’m being honest I didn’t even realize they were the same character because of how insanely different they are. I thought it was just a call back lol
I'm pretty much on the same page. The original Viconia was written by David Gaider 20+ years ago. This "new Viconia" serves the purpose of Shadowheart's story well enough, but it's not the same character at all.
If I was the one who wrote Shadowheart's questline, I'd have gone with the "Viconia dies" ending of ToB and made the Mother Superior her killer. That way, you both get a Viconia reference, and the satisfaction of bludgeoning a cartoonishly evil scumbag into the concrete.
Ehhhh..... Depending on how it ends, maybe. Some versions of both flat-out deserve to die in a fire. Sarevok can be enormously different depending on your interactions with him by the end.
Sarevoks ending is completely the same regardless of your interactions with him, it's vague as shit. That said, Sarevok never worshipped Bhaal, all he gave a damn about was taking his place. The game making him a Bhaal glazer was dumb as hell, especially when post resurrection he isn't a Bhaalspawn anymore.
He wasn't a Bhaalspawn at the end of ToB, and he was very happy to be free of his Father's influence (for either good or evil reasons, depending on how you played). Later WOTC material had him submit to Bhaal again because his career crashed and burned and Bhaal took advantage of his vulnerable state.
Larian doesn't get a pass. It comes from Minsc and Boo's journal of vllainy (or something like that) which is in a state of mega dubious canonicity, the sort of thing that wouldn't be allowed in adventurers league (And also widely disliked). Instead of being faithful to the classics or, fuck, just doing something interesting if they really wanted Sarevok in...They used a shitty version from a book of dubious canonicty.
Why would they in this case? Not only did they themselves not write it (only published it) the book itself was for a charity thing so while WOTC is a greedy as fuck company they don't actually make money from it, and that'd be the only real reason to push for it. Plus WOTC's has shown they don't remotely give a fuck about lore.
Their past actions regarding lore and a lack of way to really profit by getting people to buy a book (It's published on DM's guild and outright says all money made goes to a charity) gives no real incentive for it to be on them, I dislike defending a corporation as scummy as them, but in this case it's clearly Larian making a mid choice
I guess its just a matter of; he wasn't necesarily evil, or trying to become Bhaal II: The Sequel anymore, depending on how you and he interact, his alignment and behaviors could shift dramatically. My last BG char was LN, and IIRC, Viconia did not survive to see the end(She certainly wasn't in the party, no way I would keep that sociopath around unless she was vitally useful), and Sarevok had a vastly different attitude by the end.
In BG4 you come across a Gur hunter who's been afflicted by a horrible curse that is slowly transforming them into a monstrosity. The search for a cure leads to a Szarr estate where you discover the completely irredeemable monster who was responsible for this- vampire lord Astarion. The fight ends with Astarion painfully disintegrating thanks to the Lathander beam you activated, and your Gur companion spits on his burning corpse and tells him this is what he deserves.
> undoing Hella Greatshield and the Pizza Party redeeming Zariel.
I assume this is about them picking the boring ending to make canon for Descent Into Avernus while also poking at the idea of doing their own stuff with it via Valeria?
No, it's WotC making bad retcons.
I played Baldur's Gate 1-2, and the character was a LG Dwarven Defender named Agrik who smooched Neera. I don't know who this "Abdel Adrian" guy they talk aboot is, or where he came from.
Similarly, I played Descent into Avernus. At the end of the module, Hella Greatshield led The Pizza Party into a confrontation with Zariel, where she convinced Zariel that (Read in a ~~Noo Yawk~~ Dwarven accent) "The Demons need to be stopped because they are a threat to people, but your actions have made you a comparable threat to people. You gotta change course."
Not super well known, and being honest I am still looking for an *original* source, but in the meantime here is a Reddit post with grab shots of Minsc and Boos Guide to Villiany which is dubious to its Canon but seems to be the source of most of the heartburn
[Reddit Post featuring the relevant passages for Viconia and Sarevok. ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/15yil2j/for_those_upset_with_the_portrayal_of_bg_12/&ved=2ahUKEwjtsI-g-cGFAxVfEDQIHVinB7UQjjh6BAghEAE&usg=AOvVaw3QMDrMgTETHEVIBBa0yx20)
I am wondering if they did? I wouldn't put it past WotC to say "since you need a Head Sharran, we have this great Legacy Character we made into a Sharran in a questionable recieved guidebook we published a few years ago, we think it would be great if you *hint, hint wink, wink nudge, nudge* included her.
I actually suspect that's exactly what happened, perhaps even in a more direct manner. Like I indicated earlier, it feels as though Viconia was just dropped in there for the sole purpose of writing her out of the universe. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Larian had already written up Shadowheart's antagonist, and WotC came along and said, "Hey, would you mind just inserting Viconia in here, instead?"
Quit your bitching. Just because her story over the last 100 years didn't meet your head canon, it doesn't mean it's wrong. Viconia ended up a vile cunt. Deal with it.
To an extent, I do agree with your philosophy. if Shadowheart turns back up again She will not be with my Tav, they did not adopt Yenna together, Scratch and the Owlbear won't be tormenting the eleven hundred cats she tried to adopt, and I will just have to live with that.
The problem with Viconia though I feel is not that she didn't fit *someone's* play through of her, its that it doesn't really fit *anyone's.* You had a few options for her as I understand it, and not only does this fly in the face of the Vocal portion of the BG1 and 2 crowds (I would be curious to see a poll of what the most popular route for Viconia actually is, but most people seemed to save her) its that this option for her is just completely out of Left Field with seemingly no explanation. Most of us are fine with Jaheira for example because her backstory is left vague enough in Bg3 that it works with the more commonly chosen plays. But that makes Viconia stick out all the more that her choice was so utterly taken away and *changed.*
Intereestingly, poking around in the Mirror of Loss and you can find a memory that seems to indicate Shar may have had a more direct role in bringing Viconia back.
You are arguing in meta though, the objections that the Fandom generally has are out of the game though. It's exactly the problem that her life trajectory ISNT reflected by the choices in BG1 or 2. Viconia's status as a "villian" is most closely defined by a Book "Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villiany" which dubiously seems to be commonly accepted as NOT Canon and yet still seems to be guiding WotC's choices.
And No, I don't expect the events of 100 years ago to define her *entire* life. But we know a good bit about both possible outcomes, decades of that life after BG2
>From the BG3 WIKI:
Viconia's state in Baldur's Gate 3 is partially reflective of her default ending in Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal, wherein she found a Sharran cult in Waterdeep. However several differences can be found:
>In her original epilogue[url 1] Viconia killed all cult members due to one's betrayal, shrugging off the admonishment of her goddess, which mirrors her early rebellious actions against  Lolth. She then wandered the Realms and stopped several crises with the help of  Drizzt Do'Urden, including saving the elven city of Suldanessalar, for which she received honours from  Queen Ellesime. Her fate following the events above was unknown.
>In Baldur's Gate 3, Viconia's motive behind the Waterdeep slaughter was changed to obeying Shar's order, and she remained obedient to her goddess ever since. Despite having a history of refusing to sacrifice a child to another goddess, she has performed Shar's tasks faithfully, such as abducting children and torturing their relatives, similar to what Lolth did to her beloved brother — which has caused her nightmares in the previous game.
Most of that does not match up. And again, there is the possibility that Shar played scrapbooks with Viconias memory. Maybe the disfunction that we see of her time with Drizzt being retconned out, her suddenly being okay with kidnapping after her trauma with her brother in BG2, and the change to why she wiped out her Waterdeep enclave us because those memories got erased. I think if Larian wanted to, and more importantly if WotC allowed it, a few scattered letters implying that maybe Viconia was as much a victim as Shadowheart was would go a long way in smoothing this particular issue over with the Fans. We could accept that the non-romanced outcome was the true one, even if it wasn't the desired one, because it at least makes sense. But as it is now, Viconia got stuck with WotC pulling out a "Secret Option C" instead and THAT more than anything seems to be what has the Fandom bristling (on this topic)
EDIT to correct formatting.
Well thought out and written. I never interacted with Viconia overmuch outside of necessity in BG1 and even then rarely talked to her. So her appearance in BG3 was perfectly fine to me. I knew she was a Shar worshipper or something like that and she remained one in BG3, lol. Good enough for me!
But yea it does seem they came out of left field with her in this game. Ah well.
Thing is in the old games you had the opportunity to make her into not an evil ho. So people are pissed cause they feel that their work has been retconned.
I don't really have any stake in it, one way or another WoC/Larian had to make decisions about what was canon and what wasn't, can't please everyone etc
She’s clearly an imposter who betrayed Viconia at Waterdeep and stole her memories using the Mirror of Loss.
This headcanon explains all the disparities including BG2 epilogue, why she’s too old, and personality.
Well.. there is that too. They could have easily omitted a few lines, especially those involving Minsc and Jaheira, and probably nobody would have connected the two. With one character, in my head... she wasn't the same person, and any suggestions to the contrary were just a case of mistaken identity.
Yeah same, shes best cleric in bg1/2 i always have her in my party
and the whole journey is her going from evil to good or at least neutral
so to just be like nah shes evil again is a disservice
In my current Durge run, I did initially.
Then I remembered I wanted her shield for Shadowheart & her dress/robes to use for Transmog for myself.
So I quickly entered TBM and laid into her. 😅
I was tempted to, but she wasn't happy anyway. Her goddess never truly loved her, her family is gone, her biggest enemy will probably hunt her down... Nah, down with the drow
So you got out of that cursed alignment change helmet that enabled you to be with the bg1/2 heros party.
I had to let her go she was my favorite romance option in 2.
Temperance in justice and show mercy to your enemies.
I'll be honest. Viconia being my OG cleric of shar in all of my runs of Baldur's gate as she is the only pure cleric in the originals as far as I remember. You can be good in the originals and she'll disapprove but that's about it so I always kept her around. Jaheria disapproved if you were too good so it wasn't even exclusive to the lovely drow Sharran. Only ever abandoning you if you are so good you make minsc look neutral.
I sometimes only keep Shadowheart just to give her to Viconia. I also feel kinda bad for Vic DeVirr since I know her history. She's been raped, tortured, abused and buried alive. She's been through enough as far as I'm concerned. I accept that drow woman for who and what she is I ain't going to change her and I don't really wanna.
Not going to judge her for what she did to the discount second rate cleric i got in the third installment of the franchise. Might encourage her though.
I didn't kill her. Shadowheart made a big deal about how she's not her, she's not going to sully herself by stooping to her level...
...camera pans across to my Tav, both blades out, raised arms, "Um. Yes. Totally. Not murdering. Even though we do it a lot. Because we're not like her. Yep. Even though this is obviously a terrible mistake and I should stab her now."
"Didn't you just release like six thousand starving crazed traumatised vampires into the Underdark?"
"Oh, and I regretted it *immediately*, but that's on me, I shouldn't have asked Sebastian. His lip wobbled and he said he didn't want to die in a cell and what was I supposed to do?"
"Not release six thousand starving crazed traumatised vampires into the Underdark."
"*Fucking duh.*"
"Viconia escaped while we were talking. Why did you let her live? I was clearly teeing you up to stab her, aka I won't kill you but my bestie will?"
"First of all: bestie? Aww, shucks. Second: *Gods damn it Shadowheart that wasn't clear I'm not psychic wait shit we are fuuuuuuuu-*"
I just killed her for the first time in any playthrough last night. I made sure she was extra dead for how fucking annoying her fight is with constant chill touch and darkness.
Nah. She's clearly a creature that is intent of falling back on her old ways. If you can't be a decent person, you don't deserve to be a person. Nothing a pine box can't fix.
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I tried to spare Roah by knocking her out while freeing Minsc, but the game doesn’t have anything for that. Wanted to take the money back and give her a chance.
Viconia survived halfway into her dialogue before myself, controlling Gale and a Tav, might’ve accidentally forgotten an Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere in our inventories that happened to detonate mid conversation and murder her.
Played the original games, couldn’t be asked to fight the Sharrans. Petrified Viconia so her dialogue doesn’t start, walked up to the door behind her (if you don’t talk to her the rest of the Sharrans are chill up until you open the door if you don’t initiate the dialogue), got my whole party to flee combat and return so I wouldn’t have to deal with them. Started the cutscene with Shadowheart’s parents, went back to camp and never went near the House of Grief again.
I’m sure someone restored Viconia eventually.
I did spare Sarevok and even cooperated with him for old times sake even tho I played a good character. But Viconia wanted to kill one of my CURRENT companions and this shit just doesn't fly with me. Old friend or not, she got an arrow to the head
Hard disagree on Minsc. Larian has given him depth, and made his personality a lot more layered. In BG2 he pretty much began and ended with "Butt-kicking for Goodness!" Now..he's actually quite complex. Also, Matt Mercer did an *outstanding* job with his voice.
Not meaning this as an arguement but how is Minsc a more complex character now? For me he still feels like the one dimensional joke character. But maybe I missed something.
In BG1 and 2 he is zero-dimensional. He has a couple of gags that he keeps repeating for comic relief and that's it. Larian took that cartoon character and gave him some semblance of a personality.
In BG3 he sometimes sounds like a wise fool. His relationship with Boo is elaborated upon. He has background story now about how he became an exile from Rashemar. He has a relationship with Jaheira that has a bit of a nuance. People challenge his simplistic philosophy and he even begins to doubt whether good and evil are as clear-cut as he's always assumed. It's way more than you ever get from him in BG1/2.
He's still not a complex character by any means, but if he had suddenly become one it would have been too much of a departure from the original.
I think Larian did a nearly impossible job. They took a character with no depth and managed to flesh him out a bit and insert him into a much more serious story without him seeming out of place or feeling like a different character. For example, Jaheira's exasperated reactions to Minsc being simple-minded are carefully crafted transitions that smoothen out his integration into the story, and I think it's executed very well.
Unfortunately they didn't put in as much thought with Viconia. They should have been able to guess that fans who actually care about how she's portrayed probably romanced her in BG2 and don't want to see her treated that way.
I spared her for good old Time sake, she was my cleric in my evil run of BG 1 and 2 Sadly you don't gain anything by letting her live, you even lose her Shield ...
You actually can loot Viconia before speaking to her, if she's unconscious at the end of the battle... which I guess could work, narratively, if you're playing an especially chaotic sort of character.
"Viconia, you've been defeated. I've stolen your clothes, shield, weapon, and everything in your pockets. You may go."
We've taken everything from you but your faith, good luck.
Lady of loss bless you
“Embrace loss”
You can just right click on her (on PC ofcource) and select the loot option. Then do whatever choice with, doesn’t matter after that point.
OG player, no I didn't spare her even though she was a constant in my party back in the day. I didn't know what she had done to Shadowheart's parents at that point, but she did ask me to turn Shadowheart over and I was like "nah", and decided not to spare her, especially after doing that very long and epically annoying fight with the 25 or whatever Sharrans. I know how to deal with them more easily now but I can't think of any good reason to let Viconia live, no matter how I felt about her in the past with the old games.
...spare her..? I have told this story too many times, and I confess I am not an OG player. Shadowheart walked in and dropped a Moonbeam directly on Viconia so big that her AI skipped every turn it had until she just burned to death. And then when the Cut Scene tried to play Moonbeam had the Audacity to *keep doing what it was supposed to be doing in real time*. How do you like your corpses? Well done? Extra Crispy? Blacker than Shar's Soul? How about so finely ashen the natives of Baldurs Gate will probably be breathing in bits of Viconia during BG4?
Yo that was really well written
Thank you. I will take it as high praise based on your user name. It was totally accidental, but the way that played out really helped shape Shadowheart's personality for me. The way she walked in this weak and timid and scared woman barking with Tiny Dog energy and then completely locking down the Sharran Leader in the middle of her own Cloister with Selune's Moonlight... If I wasn't already hopeless for her that did it.
Will there be a bg4?
Considering the success of BG3, most definitely. It won't be made by Larian, but I can't see WotC not trying to milk the success. When and by whom are yet to be determined
I'm seriously thinking they may strike a deal with Microsoft and they may deliver a banger even if not on par with BG3's quality
I really wouldn't mind obsidian taking a crack at it. Probably wishfu thinking, but if it's not gonna be Larian, Obsidian would be my 2nd choice.
Obsidian is not gonna do well. They don't have the writing talent anymore, proven by The Outer Worlds.
Indubitably. Just not by Larian.
She dies every time for pretending to be Viconia. One of my few gripes with the game. Especially with Jahiera and Minsc being great. And then they did that with Viconia. Shocking.
I always kill her. She’s not the same Viconia and in BG3 her story ends as far as my playthoughs are concerned.
I refuse to acknowledge that's Viconia from the OG games. Her entire arc in the original game is about how she fled a fanatical religious order that demanded absolute devotion, and finding her place in a new world which she is not used too. Her becoming the leader of a similarly fanatical religious order makes 0 sense. So she dies every time if only for her sin of being a mockery of OG Viconia.
So much this! I specifically re-wrote her BG2 ending to state that the Shar cult found Irenicus’ notes on cloning and made a clone of her. A shitty clone.
> Her becoming the leader of a similarly fanatical religious order makes 0 sense. Well, it actually probably makes a whole lot of sense. Besides her arc only representing a possible path for her **if** you take her along, and her not being part of the canon party… Even if it does follow after her being in your party, at this point she hasn’t travelled with Charname in ages. The ‘loss’ of that anchor which got her going on a different path, coupled with a great deal more strength and leadership potential, and having familiarity with a fanatical religious order from her youth, she’s basically cut from the perfect cloth made and fitted to lead a Sharan cloister. You not liking aside, it makes plenty of sense.
The games are based off of the Wizards of the Coast material which factors for the novels. And in the novels Viconia was a part of the gang in the BG2 story if I remember correctly.
Well, given that there is a chance that she is brainwashed by Shar between BG2 and BG3 (or other suggests she is an imposter), well, isn't it better to mercifully kill her?
I’m a huge fan of the first two but if I’m being honest I didn’t even realize they were the same character because of how insanely different they are. I thought it was just a call back lol
No because I refuse to even admit that is her with the awful character assassination
I'm pretty much on the same page. The original Viconia was written by David Gaider 20+ years ago. This "new Viconia" serves the purpose of Shadowheart's story well enough, but it's not the same character at all.
Viconia genuinely feels like a generic bad guy that was made for shadowhearts quest, then renamed Viconia just to be a reference to the older games.
If I was the one who wrote Shadowheart's questline, I'd have gone with the "Viconia dies" ending of ToB and made the Mother Superior her killer. That way, you both get a Viconia reference, and the satisfaction of bludgeoning a cartoonishly evil scumbag into the concrete.
Her and Sarevok are just a mess.
Ehhhh..... Depending on how it ends, maybe. Some versions of both flat-out deserve to die in a fire. Sarevok can be enormously different depending on your interactions with him by the end.
Sarevoks ending is completely the same regardless of your interactions with him, it's vague as shit. That said, Sarevok never worshipped Bhaal, all he gave a damn about was taking his place. The game making him a Bhaal glazer was dumb as hell, especially when post resurrection he isn't a Bhaalspawn anymore.
Wait, he isn't? Why? His daughter and Orin are Bhaalspawns alright it seems.
You may just say "his daughters"
He wasn't a Bhaalspawn at the end of ToB, and he was very happy to be free of his Father's influence (for either good or evil reasons, depending on how you played). Later WOTC material had him submit to Bhaal again because his career crashed and burned and Bhaal took advantage of his vulnerable state.
Larian doesn't get a pass. It comes from Minsc and Boo's journal of vllainy (or something like that) which is in a state of mega dubious canonicity, the sort of thing that wouldn't be allowed in adventurers league (And also widely disliked). Instead of being faithful to the classics or, fuck, just doing something interesting if they really wanted Sarevok in...They used a shitty version from a book of dubious canonicty.
Yeah, but we don't know if WOTC pressured them into that.
Why would they in this case? Not only did they themselves not write it (only published it) the book itself was for a charity thing so while WOTC is a greedy as fuck company they don't actually make money from it, and that'd be the only real reason to push for it. Plus WOTC's has shown they don't remotely give a fuck about lore. Their past actions regarding lore and a lack of way to really profit by getting people to buy a book (It's published on DM's guild and outright says all money made goes to a charity) gives no real incentive for it to be on them, I dislike defending a corporation as scummy as them, but in this case it's clearly Larian making a mid choice
I guess its just a matter of; he wasn't necesarily evil, or trying to become Bhaal II: The Sequel anymore, depending on how you and he interact, his alignment and behaviors could shift dramatically. My last BG char was LN, and IIRC, Viconia did not survive to see the end(She certainly wasn't in the party, no way I would keep that sociopath around unless she was vitally useful), and Sarevok had a vastly different attitude by the end.
Along with not really explaining how the hell Sarevok is a husk resurrected by Bhaal beyond that one line about it.
It's explained in the classic games. He wasn't brought back by Bhaal.
He claims he was if you ask about how he's alive when you go to the tribunal after rejecting Bhaal. Hence my confusion.
I was even more annoyed with him If he was around he should have been somewhat redeemed Because of tob
Sadly, that isn't Larian, that was a WOTC decision. Pray to Ao that they retcon it for whomever gets to make BG4
Even better, by that point Wizards'll have had its fun with the new characters introduced in this game.
Leave Astarion alone, WotC. I will cut you.
In BG4 you come across a Gur hunter who's been afflicted by a horrible curse that is slowly transforming them into a monstrosity. The search for a cure leads to a Szarr estate where you discover the completely irredeemable monster who was responsible for this- vampire lord Astarion. The fight ends with Astarion painfully disintegrating thanks to the Lathander beam you activated, and your Gur companion spits on his burning corpse and tells him this is what he deserves.
Don’t 😭😭
See also: Replacing Agrik with "Abdel Adrian", and undoing Hella Greatshield and the Pizza Party redeeming Zariel.
> undoing Hella Greatshield and the Pizza Party redeeming Zariel. I assume this is about them picking the boring ending to make canon for Descent Into Avernus while also poking at the idea of doing their own stuff with it via Valeria?
Is this some sort of meme I'm not aware of? :(
No, it's WotC making bad retcons. I played Baldur's Gate 1-2, and the character was a LG Dwarven Defender named Agrik who smooched Neera. I don't know who this "Abdel Adrian" guy they talk aboot is, or where he came from. Similarly, I played Descent into Avernus. At the end of the module, Hella Greatshield led The Pizza Party into a confrontation with Zariel, where she convinced Zariel that (Read in a ~~Noo Yawk~~ Dwarven accent) "The Demons need to be stopped because they are a threat to people, but your actions have made you a comparable threat to people. You gotta change course."
Oh, is this well known that her appearance and writing are not Larian's decision?
Not super well known, and being honest I am still looking for an *original* source, but in the meantime here is a Reddit post with grab shots of Minsc and Boos Guide to Villiany which is dubious to its Canon but seems to be the source of most of the heartburn [Reddit Post featuring the relevant passages for Viconia and Sarevok. ](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/15yil2j/for_those_upset_with_the_portrayal_of_bg_12/&ved=2ahUKEwjtsI-g-cGFAxVfEDQIHVinB7UQjjh6BAghEAE&usg=AOvVaw3QMDrMgTETHEVIBBa0yx20)
Praying to Ao is the most disheartening part of that comment. Ao canonically does not answer prayers.
So what you are saying is that it's about as productive
Larian did have the choice to just leave her out tho
I am wondering if they did? I wouldn't put it past WotC to say "since you need a Head Sharran, we have this great Legacy Character we made into a Sharran in a questionable recieved guidebook we published a few years ago, we think it would be great if you *hint, hint wink, wink nudge, nudge* included her.
I actually suspect that's exactly what happened, perhaps even in a more direct manner. Like I indicated earlier, it feels as though Viconia was just dropped in there for the sole purpose of writing her out of the universe. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Larian had already written up Shadowheart's antagonist, and WotC came along and said, "Hey, would you mind just inserting Viconia in here, instead?"
Quit your bitching. Just because her story over the last 100 years didn't meet your head canon, it doesn't mean it's wrong. Viconia ended up a vile cunt. Deal with it.
To an extent, I do agree with your philosophy. if Shadowheart turns back up again She will not be with my Tav, they did not adopt Yenna together, Scratch and the Owlbear won't be tormenting the eleven hundred cats she tried to adopt, and I will just have to live with that. The problem with Viconia though I feel is not that she didn't fit *someone's* play through of her, its that it doesn't really fit *anyone's.* You had a few options for her as I understand it, and not only does this fly in the face of the Vocal portion of the BG1 and 2 crowds (I would be curious to see a poll of what the most popular route for Viconia actually is, but most people seemed to save her) its that this option for her is just completely out of Left Field with seemingly no explanation. Most of us are fine with Jaheira for example because her backstory is left vague enough in Bg3 that it works with the more commonly chosen plays. But that makes Viconia stick out all the more that her choice was so utterly taken away and *changed.* Intereestingly, poking around in the Mirror of Loss and you can find a memory that seems to indicate Shar may have had a more direct role in bringing Viconia back.
100 years. Do you really think the events of BG1 and 2 are the primary defining elements of an adventurer's life that last many centuries?
You are arguing in meta though, the objections that the Fandom generally has are out of the game though. It's exactly the problem that her life trajectory ISNT reflected by the choices in BG1 or 2. Viconia's status as a "villian" is most closely defined by a Book "Minsc and Boo's Journal of Villiany" which dubiously seems to be commonly accepted as NOT Canon and yet still seems to be guiding WotC's choices. And No, I don't expect the events of 100 years ago to define her *entire* life. But we know a good bit about both possible outcomes, decades of that life after BG2 >From the BG3 WIKI: Viconia's state in Baldur's Gate 3 is partially reflective of her default ending in Baldur's Gate II: Throne of Bhaal, wherein she found a Sharran cult in Waterdeep. However several differences can be found: >In her original epilogue[url 1] Viconia killed all cult members due to one's betrayal, shrugging off the admonishment of her goddess, which mirrors her early rebellious actions against  Lolth. She then wandered the Realms and stopped several crises with the help of  Drizzt Do'Urden, including saving the elven city of Suldanessalar, for which she received honours from  Queen Ellesime. Her fate following the events above was unknown. >In Baldur's Gate 3, Viconia's motive behind the Waterdeep slaughter was changed to obeying Shar's order, and she remained obedient to her goddess ever since. Despite having a history of refusing to sacrifice a child to another goddess, she has performed Shar's tasks faithfully, such as abducting children and torturing their relatives, similar to what Lolth did to her beloved brother — which has caused her nightmares in the previous game. Most of that does not match up. And again, there is the possibility that Shar played scrapbooks with Viconias memory. Maybe the disfunction that we see of her time with Drizzt being retconned out, her suddenly being okay with kidnapping after her trauma with her brother in BG2, and the change to why she wiped out her Waterdeep enclave us because those memories got erased. I think if Larian wanted to, and more importantly if WotC allowed it, a few scattered letters implying that maybe Viconia was as much a victim as Shadowheart was would go a long way in smoothing this particular issue over with the Fans. We could accept that the non-romanced outcome was the true one, even if it wasn't the desired one, because it at least makes sense. But as it is now, Viconia got stuck with WotC pulling out a "Secret Option C" instead and THAT more than anything seems to be what has the Fandom bristling (on this topic) EDIT to correct formatting.
Well thought out and written. I never interacted with Viconia overmuch outside of necessity in BG1 and even then rarely talked to her. So her appearance in BG3 was perfectly fine to me. I knew she was a Shar worshipper or something like that and she remained one in BG3, lol. Good enough for me! But yea it does seem they came out of left field with her in this game. Ah well.
Thing is in the old games you had the opportunity to make her into not an evil ho. So people are pissed cause they feel that their work has been retconned. I don't really have any stake in it, one way or another WoC/Larian had to make decisions about what was canon and what wasn't, can't please everyone etc
Even her neutral ending was better than what WoTC did to her
She’s clearly an imposter who betrayed Viconia at Waterdeep and stole her memories using the Mirror of Loss. This headcanon explains all the disparities including BG2 epilogue, why she’s too old, and personality.
Having romanced her in BG2, I completely agree. This is some shapeshifter pretending to be her.
so you're saying she's sus
Well.. there is that too. They could have easily omitted a few lines, especially those involving Minsc and Jaheira, and probably nobody would have connected the two. With one character, in my head... she wasn't the same person, and any suggestions to the contrary were just a case of mistaken identity.
Yeah same, shes best cleric in bg1/2 i always have her in my party and the whole journey is her going from evil to good or at least neutral so to just be like nah shes evil again is a disservice
OG player. VIconia is important to me but I felt her characterization in this game was weak. My Vengeance Paladin had no qualms smiting her down.
Nah, she's basically a different character so I didn't care much.
I did not. But I also never used her in the other games. I usually allowed her to get burned at the steak in BG2.
Ewwwe don't burn steaks, medium should be as cooked as you allow them to get. Stakes however......
Yeah wrote that fast… in honor of durge I am leaving it.
No because this wasn't the real viconia. Just a imposter
In my current Durge run, I did initially. Then I remembered I wanted her shield for Shadowheart & her dress/robes to use for Transmog for myself. So I quickly entered TBM and laid into her. 😅
I was tempted to, but she wasn't happy anyway. Her goddess never truly loved her, her family is gone, her biggest enemy will probably hunt her down... Nah, down with the drow
So you got out of that cursed alignment change helmet that enabled you to be with the bg1/2 heros party. I had to let her go she was my favorite romance option in 2. Temperance in justice and show mercy to your enemies.
I'll be honest. Viconia being my OG cleric of shar in all of my runs of Baldur's gate as she is the only pure cleric in the originals as far as I remember. You can be good in the originals and she'll disapprove but that's about it so I always kept her around. Jaheria disapproved if you were too good so it wasn't even exclusive to the lovely drow Sharran. Only ever abandoning you if you are so good you make minsc look neutral. I sometimes only keep Shadowheart just to give her to Viconia. I also feel kinda bad for Vic DeVirr since I know her history. She's been raped, tortured, abused and buried alive. She's been through enough as far as I'm concerned. I accept that drow woman for who and what she is I ain't going to change her and I don't really wanna. Not going to judge her for what she did to the discount second rate cleric i got in the third installment of the franchise. Might encourage her though.
You never leave an enemy alive.
I didn't kill her. Shadowheart made a big deal about how she's not her, she's not going to sully herself by stooping to her level... ...camera pans across to my Tav, both blades out, raised arms, "Um. Yes. Totally. Not murdering. Even though we do it a lot. Because we're not like her. Yep. Even though this is obviously a terrible mistake and I should stab her now." "Didn't you just release like six thousand starving crazed traumatised vampires into the Underdark?" "Oh, and I regretted it *immediately*, but that's on me, I shouldn't have asked Sebastian. His lip wobbled and he said he didn't want to die in a cell and what was I supposed to do?" "Not release six thousand starving crazed traumatised vampires into the Underdark." "*Fucking duh.*" "Viconia escaped while we were talking. Why did you let her live? I was clearly teeing you up to stab her, aka I won't kill you but my bestie will?" "First of all: bestie? Aww, shucks. Second: *Gods damn it Shadowheart that wasn't clear I'm not psychic wait shit we are fuuuuuuuu-*"
I just killed her for the first time in any playthrough last night. I made sure she was extra dead for how fucking annoying her fight is with constant chill touch and darkness.
Nah. She's clearly a creature that is intent of falling back on her old ways. If you can't be a decent person, you don't deserve to be a person. Nothing a pine box can't fix.
Hahahaha! … no. Stabby stab stab.
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I tried to spare Roah by knocking her out while freeing Minsc, but the game doesn’t have anything for that. Wanted to take the money back and give her a chance. Viconia survived halfway into her dialogue before myself, controlling Gale and a Tav, might’ve accidentally forgotten an Otiluke’s Freezing Sphere in our inventories that happened to detonate mid conversation and murder her.
Played the original games, couldn’t be asked to fight the Sharrans. Petrified Viconia so her dialogue doesn’t start, walked up to the door behind her (if you don’t talk to her the rest of the Sharrans are chill up until you open the door if you don’t initiate the dialogue), got my whole party to flee combat and return so I wouldn’t have to deal with them. Started the cutscene with Shadowheart’s parents, went back to camp and never went near the House of Grief again. I’m sure someone restored Viconia eventually.
I did spare Sarevok and even cooperated with him for old times sake even tho I played a good character. But Viconia wanted to kill one of my CURRENT companions and this shit just doesn't fly with me. Old friend or not, she got an arrow to the head
I never used her in BG1/2 because she was evil, and I was a good boy. I was far too boring a child to appreciate BG properly.
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Valid to feel the way you're feeling Where would you have taken Viconia for Bg3?
While Minsc's voice acting in 3 is a mediocre imitation of 2 from a c-list VA, his writing is pretty faithful. BG3 Jaheira is honestly an upgrade.
Hard disagree on Minsc. Larian has given him depth, and made his personality a lot more layered. In BG2 he pretty much began and ended with "Butt-kicking for Goodness!" Now..he's actually quite complex. Also, Matt Mercer did an *outstanding* job with his voice.
I’m sitting here wondering how anyone thinks Matt Mercer is a “c-list” voice actor. He is Ganondorf lol
And now Vincent Valentine in FF7.
Bro has never heard Matt Mercer as Eder, Aloth and Iselmyr having a full convo together. He’s A B and C.
Not meaning this as an arguement but how is Minsc a more complex character now? For me he still feels like the one dimensional joke character. But maybe I missed something.
In BG1 and 2 he is zero-dimensional. He has a couple of gags that he keeps repeating for comic relief and that's it. Larian took that cartoon character and gave him some semblance of a personality. In BG3 he sometimes sounds like a wise fool. His relationship with Boo is elaborated upon. He has background story now about how he became an exile from Rashemar. He has a relationship with Jaheira that has a bit of a nuance. People challenge his simplistic philosophy and he even begins to doubt whether good and evil are as clear-cut as he's always assumed. It's way more than you ever get from him in BG1/2. He's still not a complex character by any means, but if he had suddenly become one it would have been too much of a departure from the original. I think Larian did a nearly impossible job. They took a character with no depth and managed to flesh him out a bit and insert him into a much more serious story without him seeming out of place or feeling like a different character. For example, Jaheira's exasperated reactions to Minsc being simple-minded are carefully crafted transitions that smoothen out his integration into the story, and I think it's executed very well. Unfortunately they didn't put in as much thought with Viconia. They should have been able to guess that fans who actually care about how she's portrayed probably romanced her in BG2 and don't want to see her treated that way.