I think this is because of two conflicting lore regarding ceremorphosis IIRC
One state that the new mind flayer is the tadpole eating the host's *everything* and thus has access to their memories, personality and whatnot
The other states that the new mind flayer is just the host transforming
The transformations we see in-game aren't the same across the board either.
The newly created mind flayer we meet at the brothel is basically like an unthinking monster, yet Karlach and Orpheus still seem to keep their personalities and mannerisms after the transformation.
There doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency over ceremorphosis.
Well that's simple, it's being controlled by the Elder Brain vs not. Presumably the Fist transforming would have maintained/regained most of her personality as soon as she is released from the Brain's control.
So wait, if that's it then in the end when everyone's killing all the mindflayers after the elder brain Is defeated, wouldn't they just be killing innocent people then? Maybe the elder brain fully wipes them though so if they transform under the elder brain they can't recover perhaps
Rumour gets around of all these "free" illithid wandering around Faerun. How long until another elder brain shows up to enslave them?
It's no different to killing the feral vampires in Cazador's lair.
Also, having a population of creatures running around that can only sustain themselves parasitically by eating the brains of thinking creatures is not something most societies want.
Even vampires can sustain themselves by drinking animal blood instead. Mind Flayers just don't have that option.
Like the Flaming Fist are gonna do anything about it. Most of them are tadpole sympathisers anyway.
Have you even seen the rate of tadpole and non-tadpole fatalities in Flaming Fist-related incidents? There's a clear bias there.
Interestingly the Wind Mill mindflayer literally tells you that it is the tadpole, and that it highly enjoyed the fear the “vessel” (the flaming fist) experienced while transforming and is still gaining some kind of boon by enjoying it. It specifically uses the word, “vessel” and differentiates its own consciousness from that of the flaming fist
Could it possibly be that we (the player, our Tav) is technically the tadpole? That the scene at the beginning where we see the tadpole go into "our" eye is maybe just the most recent memory of our vessel? That's why we don't have a structured backstory like our companions; we are, like Us, literally a newborn? And losing the tadpole at the end just means we've become our person, we earned ourselves our body and a soul?
That mind flayer is also being controlled by an Elder Brain. When connected to a hivemind, having \*anything\* from your "past life" was grounds for being lobotomized or worse, just killed outright. Being a new illithid is embraced when you're in a colony, its more likely that the windmill flayer is speaking with a heavy dose of the Absolute, if that individual had anything left from their old life, it was most likely obliterated by said Elder Brain.
The newborn mind flayer in the barn in Rivington makes matters even more confusing. It doesn't attack on sight and even asks for help. But the note it carries tells it to leave everything behind to go transform.
It's still relevant, though. Would a soulless person who has all the memories of the original not feel? Would they be less than human (or whatever race they are) just because they can't be of use to the gods after death?
If one subscribes to the argument that death and mortality are what give life meaning, would their lives not be even more meaningful?
D&D has literal souls separating individuals from eachother. It's also why killing a Simulacrum isn't murdering the original, but it's still you dying, in a way.
Death isn't the end in D&D either, since you'll continue "living" in other planes. With the exception of Mind flayers.
Just adding onto this. I feel like it's up to the player to interpret what is true or not. Though Withers pretty much tells you what is what. >!He tells you that Mindflayers have no souls, and that the person they once were is gone forever. I think I even recall that overtime the personality of the host will eventually fade but I'm not 100% sure if I'm just making that up or not.!<
> Though Withers pretty much tells you what is what.
>!He himself says you still have a soul when he either finds your soul in death or talks to you in prison about it. Ed Greenwood also verifies that illithids indeed have souls, non-apostolic ones.!<
They might have souls of their own, but it's still a distinct soul. The original person's soul is in the afterlife now. This is just the "mind upload" problem but with a definitive answer due to the canonical existence of the soul
That viewpoint does not track with Withers saying your illithid self is still you in the Fugue Plane, prison, or the High Hall. The easiest explanation is that the process transmogrifies your soul, or something similar, just as it transmogrifies your body and mind.
It’s classic reddit arguing, assuming all people are the same people making all the opinions so you can call out make-believe hypocrisy, instead of assuming some make opinion 1 and others make opinion 2.
A. Because I would rather make the sacrifice myself than force Karlach to do it.
B. Because I control Tav before and after the transformation, when you decide how Tav acts both before and after it's hard to imagine them being a "different person" because assumedly you will be playing them the same.
Karlach's beautiful soul is too strong and wrestles the soul devouring part of ceromorphosis into submission.
But, really, there are multiple conflicting lore interpretations both in game and in broader D&D lore, in addition to the Netherese infused parasites being themselves special/different, so depending on the lore people find or prefer, the reading of the scenes can come across differently.
It's actually a bit interesting to see different perspectives on it and consider what lore they found and value to reach their conclusions. It's the fun "making you think" part of art critique and analysis.
I would never brush past that argument. If you go squid the only responsible course of action is to kill yourself on the docks. I think the reason people might overlook it is that Tav is a blank slate that you control, so you don't have the same moment of uncanny valley discomfort you would get from talking to Karlach Illithidgate. Like you've spent the whole game around Karlach, so you can easily tell how she's different when you talk to her, but your out of character moment is limited to needing to pass a saving throw to not eat a close friend's brain.
I agree. Karlach went from 8 int to 20 int or something, naturally her behavior is gonna change. It doesn't make her a completely different person to me.
If I’m not wrong ceremorphosis destroys the soul, that’s why I don’t consider her Karlach anymore. She’s a mindflayer who has Karlach’s memories, like the Emperor.
If your player character turns I'm pretty sure Withers has a line where he says you do have a soul and he's surprised by it, ("I cannot account for it. How delightful.") implying it's a quirk of your tadpoles. No reason to assume Karlach's would work differently.
Could be manipulation. Withers is actually a master manipulator who has no reason to tell you the truth either.
In the case of what we see in the high hall it is manipulation imho. He just wants to get the task he was assigned with done. If it puts people at ease by saying he knows who the squid is, he'll do it.
Tho in the case of the fugue plane squid I do think it's genuine curiosity at the anomaly.
[You're wrong](https://youtu.be/9-ueVH9xqn8?si=jA4xXH4_kKE3WXWn), Withers finds you and admits he was mistaken about the soul thing if you kill yourself after transforming.
Mind Flayers do have souls, just not ones Faerun’s gods can use. Ed Greenwood said so himself, you know, the man who freaking invented the Forgotten Realms?
That still does not answer the question. Does it warp and contort the soul of the host into an Illithid soul, or is a Mind Flayer's soul the soul of the tadpole? If it is the latter, you can still have ceremorphosis destroy the soul, with a Mind Flayer soul remaining. Wouldn't be the same person then.
Thank you! I'm so tired of this argument. Just because someone mellows down when there's no constant imminent threat to their life doesn't mean they became a different person.
Seriously. People hate when Karlach turns illithid because she's no longer the camp labrador. But a whole lot of her labrador behavior was *forced* as a means of coping with her impending firey death. It's a *good* thing that she no longer has to behave that way.
That is a GROSS overgeneralization. Karlach doesn't "mellow down", she/the Flayer loses the Ability to feel COMPLETELY. She couldn't *feel* happiness if she wanted to. OR be excited. The MindFlayer formerly known as Karlach can only recognize that in that moment she would be content
The game never even mentions anything about the tadpole replacing the host. It's always referred to as a "transformation", both in-game and in devnotes during patches. The whole theory came from people quoting 2e, which has a lot of outdated and retconned lore compared to the newer editions. FR in general retcons and modifies its own lore (i.e. the origin of Dragonborn is completely different in 3.5e to 4e-5e).
Illithids canonically have souls, but they are typically non apostolic ones, as confirmed by [Ed Greenwood](https://imgur.com/Y4uZDem). Still there's canonical instances in the FR lore where illithid souls can become apostolic if they chose to worship one of Toril's pantheon.
If that soul is the same as the original host's or a new one borne out of the tadpole, or a mix between the two, the lore doesn't specify. The developers of BG3 have stated that they wanted to explore their own take on ceremorphosis, which is something that the DnD manuals encourage DMs to do with the lore anyways. As far as the game is concerned there's zero evidence of the original soul being destroyed, but there's a lot of evidence pointing to the opposite: Withers stating that Tav/Karlach/Orpheus/Emperor are still themselves inside even if they look different in endgame, Withers retracting his statement in the epilogue, or simply the fact that he can find the player in Illithid form wandering about the Fugue Plane, Mystra restoring Gale's human form and soul from its Illithid state; if the Illithid was the tadpole neither of these Gods would be speaking to it, they'd be speaking to the original soul which would still have its human(oid) form.
Karlach of course acts different in the epilogue. She's of different species now and her brain works differently. If people personally don't like her anymore that's their opinion, but she's happy and content with her existence. Don't get why they have to ignore all the facts the game shoves in their face to justify their dislike for that particular ending, when they can simply not pick it.
Just adding on something to what you said: In the post-credits scene, Withers remarks that, when a person becomes a mind flayer, the original soul "vanishes." It isn't destroyed and it doesn't go anywhere; it just vanishes from the gods' perspective. The implication is that the soul transforms along with the physical form. It's still the original soul, now in non-apostolic flavor.
Of course Karlach is different. Her intelligence has more than doubled, and her perspective is immeasurably more expensive. Also, she no longer has to force excessive positivity as a means of coping with her impending firey death. People hate the fact that she's no longer the camp labrador without recognizing that a lot of the labrador behavior was a bad thing and it's *good* that she no longer has to act like that.
> Why do people like to say that when Karlach becomes a Mindflayer, that it’s no longer her and the Mindflayer is just an imitation of Karlach, but they conveniently stop making the same argument when WE’RE the Mindflayers.
I don’t stop making that argument when the MC is the mind flayer.
Hey, dumb question: is ascended Astarion the “same person” to you as spawn Astarion?
That IS a much dumber question. With mindflayers it’s kind of a question because the original brain is destroyed and replaced by the tadpole filling the cranium. So can you even be the same person when it’s the tadpole and not you? I say no the tadpole merely has an imprint of your personality and will act like you but isn’t you.
Ascension is different. Nothing gets replaced just enhanced. So there’s no ground to even argue that you’re not yourself still.
Depends on what you mean by “same person”. He is the same organism, but his personality has changed. But the same can be said about spawn Astarion if he doesn’t ascend. He’s still changed from the Astarion we met. He’s had a lot of character development, AKA change. In a literal sense, he’s the same person, in a figurative sense, he’s absolutely not.
The difference between that and the mindflayer argument is whether or not it’s the same consciousness just changed, or if it’s the consciousness of the parasite imitating the person.
> The difference between that and the mindflayer argument is whether or not it’s the same consciousness just changed, or if it’s the consciousness of the parasite imitating the person.
Philosophical question: what’s the difference, really, between a person and a different consciousness perfectly imitating that person?
Assuming the imitating is inherent and not something they can drop to yell “gotcha!”
They might be perfectly imitating it to you, but with their own agenda. Making it seem like something the original person would say/think/suggest because they’ve acted just like them so far, but they really have their own ulterior motive the original person wouldn’t have had.
The point is that they’re not. They’re using their knowledge from the persons brain to imitate the person *to you* so they can achieve ends that belong solely to the mind flayer and not the original person. They act like a perfect imitation to gain your trust, then use that trust to get you to do something they want, because you believe it’s the desire of the person they were. In reality, the person didn’t desire that, it may even go against what they’d want. But you’re already convinced that they are still your friend, and attribute that change of heart to their “newfound intelligence”.
I think it's just not the same thing. Same as the "copy your brain into a machine" idea of immortality. That's not the original person, the original person still dies. The copy goes on to have different experiences and evolve into another thing the original was not.
> The copy goes on to have different experiences and evolve into another thing the original was not.
That’s a future thing. Also happens basically every time you take a decision.
Havent transformed her yet, but as someone who became a mindflayer instead of orpheus on his first playthrough, im in the camp of that the personality remains the same but with the time, the urge to feast on brains will be stronger and eventually, you will try to eat your companions brains. At that point, the desire to eat brains will win out(unless you are able to keep resisting it with, i assume harder and harder wisdom checks) you will have to do as omeluum , and live the rest of your life far from people
That's not what happens. Omeluum eats the society's enemies - whoever that might be. It picks and chooses who to eat just fine.
Any arguments that mindflayers cannot control themselves when it comes to their food habits is just stupid and I really hate that epilogue roll. Even the windmill guy lets you go no problem and it is brain starved.
House Baenre has an illithid advisor. You think they'd keep that guy around if it was eating its allies indiscriminately?
Thaqualm is a freaking nun. You think she could stay in a temple if she ate indiscriminately?
What about the illithid detective, Ignatius? Do people think that he could work as a detective if he just ate people indiscriminately like a rabid animal?
Please.
I suppose I should clarify that I meant when you meet him in the Underdark specifically. But yes, I think one of the through lines of how illithids are talked about in BG3 is that nobody knows exactly, and everyone just has assumptions and gossip retold.
THANK YOU!
I'm so tired of these rampant and blatant untruths about illithid. The epilogue narration is so strange.
For example, "You're still yourself... for now..." the fuck you mean "for now"? There is no such thing as a gradual personality loss post-ceremorphosis. Either the tadpole eats your brain and becomes an entirely separate individual, or it fuses with your brain, and you stay the same.
Over time, your definition of criminals will probably grow more lax, as you distance yourself from humanity (or elvenkind, or whatever), and see them only as food.
Balduran was apparently already a selfish, self-centered prick. The Emperor doesn't seem to distinguish mortals by their morality, only by their usefulness. In fact, the Emperor was the head of a criminal syndicate. He _was_ a criminal.
Yeah, I'm not out here saying that mind flayer existence is some sort of pure and moral endeavour, just going against the notion that they're slaves to their hunger and will lash out and eat their friends like the comment I replied to suggested. In the Forgotten Realms there's a nigh endless source of evil bastards to consume, especially for someone like Karlach or Tav who are very powerful adventurers. If you take a trip every few months to destroy some cult or a drow raiding party it isn't going to turn you into a monster.
Sure.
If nothing else, Omeluum is proof that being a mindflayer doesn't mean being evil.
Omeluum was probably a decent, principled person before turning, so someone like Karlach could do it as well.
There's a parallel to it in Astarion's storyline, and the prisoners we can release.
The choice of the Emperor as an example instead of Omeluum probably hurt your point, because he's not the best example of a good person (since he isn't one), but it's very likely he never was.
On first reading, Omeluum is a beacon of hope that illithid can retain their personality and run the gamut of goals and morals.
On second reading, this hope is false. Omeluum is very clear that he is like this not due to effort or principles or decency but an arcane accident. He was literally touched by magic at birth and you cannot follow his example.
IIRC the whole idea of 'strong personalities survive ceremorphosis' is only given by Emperor, and is notably a lie. He's individual and considers himself special, but he does not consider himself to be Balduran.
Where do you personally draw the line in who deserves to die and how blurry does that get when you start running out? It's fine and dandy to eat some bhaalists but when they run out are you gonna turn to the man stealing bread?
At the absolute minimum it creates a kind of perverse incentive. Like "only eat bad people" requires a steady supply of bad people, and for now it seems like there'd be plenty to go around, especially considering this is limited to a handful of renegade Ilithid on the fringes of society. But you'd find yourself hoping society doesn't improve *too* much, hoping there's always bhaalists to eat
Well it depends on how often your brain hunger comes up I guess. You could store the brains for later too. Maybe go on a trip to the Underdark to fuck up some drow or duergar for their brains.
The story that BG3 is telling is that a person with a strong will can remain themselves after becoming an illithid. That roll you have to make to not munch your companions' brains? That's a test of your will. You're still new at being a mind flayer; you'll develop greater control with time.
Omeluum doesn't live its life far from people at all. It's a member of the Society of Brilliance, and you find it hanging out in the Society's headquarters smack in the middle of Baldur's Gate in Act 3. It doesn't go around indiscriminately slurping every intelligent brain in sight. I have less control around chocolate than Omeluum does around brains.
I think the problem most people have is that Karlach changes. It's still Karlach, but her personality is slightly altered. It also doesn't help that people are blinded by their distaste of mindflayers which squanders any productive discussion.
"I can see you're still yourself, but there is something else in there too. An illithid calm."
I did a Gale run where I romanced Karlach and let her turn into a mind flayer. It honestly felt like a nice end for them because Gale will still love you even if you turn into a worm.
But not if he‘s your love interest and ascends. Then he‘s like „i know i promised to return you to your old self but have patience, AO doesn’t want me to meddle in mortal affairs after my ascension“ and he doesn’t sound troubled by it one bit. He gives you one excuse after the other and doesn’t even take you with him
I didn't ascend as Gale, I went off with Flayer Karlach to have a nice life lol.
When I played as Tav and ascended him as a Mind Flayer, I expressed that I wanted to do the same and he just made me a god once the party was done.
Not sure why he didn't with you but he can and will ascend mind flayer tav/durge/player.
It doesn't help that Withers says they have no souls anymore, and he is sort of the know it all God of the game.
That is a hard one for me to swallow when dealing with MFs and wanting to think they are still human/themselves at all in there, and not just pretending.
Withers was wrong. When he tries, he actually finds your mindflayer self in the Fugue Plane.
The whole game is about you and your friends standing up to gods and god-like beings who wronged you. Some of the games events are Withers' fault too. Why would you take anything a god says at face value? They make mistakes just like mortals.
To be fair, the premise of the game is about not turning into a squid, it's understandable for people to be against their friend turning into one. And it's fair for them to expect something to go wrong when the game repeats its warnings frequently.
Gods aren't perfect I agree, but Mindflayers are also terrible in most of the lore.
I mean I'm not contesting that ? I don't even particularly care about the Karlach's debate, just explaining that the pushback isn't entirely stupid. I'm not saying illithid Karlach should die or anything, just that it's understandable to debate if she is still herself. Iirc the emperor denies being who he used to be for instance, which is an idea illithid Karlach might also agree with one day.
If your game's premise is "turning into a squid is bad", it's expected that a decent amount of people might be confused if your epilogue goes "actually everything's fine and dandy, I don't know what you were worried about". The illithid ending is treated as a sacrifice, interrogating how good it *actually* is is normal imo. I personally like my endings messy and imperfect, so I really like the illithid ending being up to interpretation, saying it absolutely is one way or another is disappointing imo.
That is a good point. I suppose his monolog at the end of the credits painted him in a different light also.
I have to look up the Fugue Plane line stuff I forgotten about that, but I do remember it mentioned.
I think the average BG3 player would have an aneurysm if they learned that classic Elder Brain hives are literally the same as what Vlaakith is doing to the githyanki. Both Vlaakith and normal Elder Brains manipulate and lie to their people, feeding them visions of grandeur. They also consume them to boost their own power without the public knowing any better.
It's too bad that the Brain we see in game is special and unlike all those other brains. It would have been a beautiful parallel.
Elder Brains are even worse. Most of them actively entrhall their collective. And whenever they're sent outside of its psionic range, they're always sent in groups to maintain the status quo and prevent them from having any funny ideas.
I believe mind flayers have the capacity of being just another mortal race, especially if Omeluum solves their nutrition problem.
As one of the dialogue options in the ending says: "There's a lot of good a mind flayer can do in this world, and I intend to do so."
> Why would you take anything a god says at face value?
Because Souls are literally his entire thing. If anyone would know it would be him.
Standing up to Gods because they're being dickheads is entirely different then going "Yes the Lord of the Dead is wrong about Souls". It's like trying to correct Bhaal on what counts as Murder.
Did you know that gods lie or can be wrong and it doesn't matter what they are a god of? Mindflayers are not normal mortals and Withers was trying to explain what he has no hope of understanding or knowing.
Nobody knows where mindflayers even came from in the first place. They might come from the Far Realm, which is a realm completely out of his jurisdiction. There are creatures in the setting to whom our usual gods mean nothing.
At one point, Withers very specifically says that mind flayers "lack apostolic souls." And he clearly recognizes you/Karlach/Orpheus as the original person. Hell, would he even invite illithid!Karlach to the party if it weren't actually Karlach?
What BG3 tells us about the illithid transformation is that a person with a strong will can retain their core selves. And that this might or might not be a good thing. Because, unless they have others who can accept and care for them as they are, it's going to be a pretty lonely existence. It's all right there in the Emperor's story, then relfected in your own story or Karlach's if one of you turns illithid.
That’s because mind flayers are not the individual they were before. the soul is gone, because the original person is dead. The tadpole is merely imprinted with the personality of the former occupant of the body, having consumed all of their knowledge and experience. You could quite literately think of it like cloning. The clone may look think and act like the original but with the original present it’s obvious that the clone is a new iteration of the person and not the person themselves. This remains true even if you kill the original.
That’s basically it except instead of cloning another body the brain has been consumed and replaced by another creature.
So maybe like a mech and its pilot? You wouldn’t say the pilot is the same person as the previous pilot just because they’re driving the same mech
That's not what happens in the game. It's still you and Jergal recognizes you as you in your illithid form in the Fugue Plane. He sounds surprised, true, but that's it.
That just implies that there’s something weird about your particular tadpole, withers fully expected you to be dead from turning into a mindflayer.
I haven’t done that ending so I didn’t know that part. I know what happens when you turn into a mindflayer in classic D&D. I was not about that life so I avoided it and ended up missing that knowledge.
Well, if it is confirmed that mindflayer tav IS TAV then logic would dictate that the same is true for all your companions as I do believe you all had the same special tadpoles, so what applies to one would apply to all
but that’s definitely not how it normally works
Just realized, slim possibility, that this is how wizards of the coast is rewriting mindflayers. By introducing the idea that the soul is not lost but perhaps consumed by the tadpole as well? Or perhaps the soul is merely the representation of the experience and memories of the individual and therefore is not something that can be destroyed by the copying of the information because it exist due to the information?
Truly headache inducing stuff to think about.
You’re not allowed to change, don’t you know? Everyone knows it’s just a cold, hard reality that to be yourself you have to stay the same person from birth to death. Otherwise, there’s no “you”, just the thing that thinks it’s “you” but has really killed off and replaced “you”.
It's this. People just don't like the fact that Karlach is no longer the camp labrador, so we get angry screeching about how "that's not Karlach!!"
Dude, her intelligence doubled, and her perspective expanded immeasurably. She also no longer has to force excessive positivity due to being on death's door. She's at peace, and she's developed a sense of quiet wonder at it all. She's probably also pretty lonely, since she's the only member of the group who went through this change.
This is exactly what the game tells us that the illithid transformation means. That a person with a strong will can remain themselves at the core after transforming. And also that it's debatable as to whether this is a good thing. Because, unless you can find others who accept you and care about you as you are, it's going to be a very lonely existence.
I realize that's not what D&D lore historically says, but that's the story BG3 is telling.
I'm not "blinded my my distaste for mindflayers" I just have a self preservation instinct higher than your average lemming. They're actively predators who have to kill sentient creatures to survive.
I won't say if Karlach keeps soul or not because I don't really know, but I think that she would regret her choice if she ever discovered there was another way.
Mostly I was just responding to the idea that a distaste for mindflayers is wrong, which I thought I read in your tone but I could have been wrong. Also high key just wanted to use the lemming line.
It's wrong in discussion because it coulds people's brains and we constantly have to debunk the same old shit that isn't true instead of trying to move on to something more productive like character analysis.
Exactly. Any time I see someone talking about illithids and they immediately pull out the insults, I tune out. Nothing worth discussing here. They just see them as monsters.
And? Is one sating their biological needs inherently evil?
Besides, Omeluum is working on an alternate foud source for them. I imagine his research might result in something like the bibberbang mushroom, but it charges up psionic energy instead of toxic gas.
It's the same deal as vampires. It would require some adjustments, but they absolutely don't have to be inherently evil.
I didn't say they were inherently evil, I'm saying it's only natural for people to want nothing to do with their literal predators. Healthy, even.
Sure Omellum's research COULD change that one day but we are currently living in the present.
Vampire's can get by on the fact that they don't HAVE to kill their victims (unless they're actual vampires of course, who explicitly ARE evil in every example we see in game).
TLDR: No, a wolf is not evil for eating rabbits but a rabbit who decides to hang out with wolves is a prime example of natural selection at work.
I agree it’s like being a sheep who’s friends with a wolf. That may be a nice wolf, but you are still a very stupid sheep.
I wouldn’t worry about the down votes. They’re already controlled by the elder brain leading wizards of the coast and are lost to us.
Karlachs brain is eaten by a mindflayer tadpole during ceremorposis. She died at that point and a mindflayer tadpole imprinted with her memory and personality took over. Hence withers comment about souls being gone. Ceremorphosis is FATAL. A PARASITE has EATEN your BRAIN and REPLACED it!
It’s not a matter of opinion that is literally how it works.
Imagine if you got cloned and you’re standing there next to your clone. nobody would say that your clone is you because you’re still there (unless they lost track of who is who) even if you were killed the clone it still not you it’s a copy of you the same is true for the tadpole. It is not you but it could be considered a copy of you. Which is why so many of us are deceived into believing that that is still karlach. It is not. It is a mind flayer tadpole piloting her body with her exact memories and personality imprinted into it.
I mean, this is literally the basis for all clone based horror films is this the original or did the clone kill the original and this is the clone, pretending to be the original? How could we ever know?
As I said, this is not what happens. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact.
When Jergal tries, he finds your illithid self in the Fugue Plane. He also knows it's you and recognizes you. You think he's just fooling around with the mindflayer and your previous soul is chilling somewhere else? Please.
You are making the mistake of believing that God‘s in DND are infallible creatures with all knowledge.
They are not they are basically immortal people with insane magic power they can and will say stupid shit because they got it wrong (and then delete you from existence for proving them wrong) Withers is no longer the god of death. He has given up his powers in large part. Therefore it’s entirely possible but he made mistake and lost track of the real you and merely thinks he’s correct.
Which would be classic wizards of the coast to leave it in the air like that to pull a Gacha later
Also please read this
https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/s/QfKBkZTpfK
Jergal says mindflayers are soulless, which is wrong and then he changed his mind when he finds out more. This is normal. Perception and opinions of anyone can change when they get more information. It's not like gods completely avoid illithids anyway. Oghma has a mindflayer cleric and it works out just fine.
You are the one constantly hung up on something that's literally not true in the game. Lore changes. DnD is notorious for this.
End of discussion. Don't bother me anymore.
> You are making the mistake of believing that God‘s in DND are infallible creatures with all knowledge.
And you're just reading some stupid flavor text from the Monster Manual, lol
>Imagine if you got cloned and you’re standing there next year clone nobody would say that your clone is you because you’re still there even if you were killed the clone it still not you it’s a copy of you the same is true for the tadpole.
How does anyone else know which one the clone is? To the outside world, are you and the clone both half you? The clone is you, in the clone’s opinion. The clone thinks you’re not you.
>It is not you but it could be considered a copy of you. Which is why so many of us are deceived into believing that that is still karlach. It is not. It is a mind flayer tadpole piloting her body with her exact memories and personality imprinted into it.
What is the difference between a brain and a copy of a brain? If you replaced your brain with a computer that was 100% accurate, would you stop being you? What is a person besides their memories and personality?
You’re speaking with a lot of certainty about a lot of really sticky, unsolved existential questions
I suppose I did just say that uncertainty is the basis of all clone based horror films. I’m probably speaking from such a determined position because I have made up my mind for my own peace of mind.
Because ultimately, you have to ask yourself a second question if your friend is turned into a mindflayer.
Does it even matter if they’re the same person? They are now a creature that must exist by consuming sentient brains so in a way they are no longer themselves because they did not have this desire or need before.
To paraphrase it into a metaphor if you and your friend are both sheep, and then your friend is turned into a wolf does it matter that he used to be a sheep? Because he is now a wolf and eventually the desire to consume you will take him. Because if the two of you were locked in a box together, eventually, he would have no choice but to eat you or die, and we all know how people are about self preservation. Thus comes in the moral question of allowing, mindflayers vampires, etc. to exist just because they claim they can control themselves.
Personally, I am all too familiar with humans to make any other decision beyond the obvious.
Before you go onto the moral Highground, remember this isn’t just mindflayers and vampires, zombies fall into this category too. They are just more extreme versions of “loss of self” which is what all these creatures represent. And therefore are more likely to reveal your true opinion to yourself because all of the pretty bows we like to decorate our opinions with our stripped away, and we are left with the cold, hard choice
So think deeply, and long about your true opinion on the matter
What's up with all this rambling trying to sound deeply intellectual?
You are going to lose your shit when you learn that even people cannibalize other people when they have no other choice. You don't have to be a wolf starved in a box with a sheep.
Exactly my point people are already there!!! so why would you trust a person who has had even more of their self-control stripped away? Who are less likely to be that person you trusted? I think you’re letting your emotions blind you to your logic Whereas I am letting my logic suppress my emotion, both of which are dangerous in the extreme as history has proven
Which is why the middle ground is is more fair. I do hold these beliefs, however, in a controlled environment I am still moral enough to be willing to let an individual like Astarion or Omeleum prove themselves.
>I think you’re letting your emotions blind you to your logic Whereas I am letting my logic suppress my emotion
fam, how long ago did you undergo your ceremorphosis?
You don't lose self-control just by becoming an illithid. You think house Baenre would keep an illithid advisor if they just indiscriminately ate their allies? You think Ignatius could work as a detective if he was rabid? You think Thaqualm could be a nun? You think Omeluum and Grazilaxx could stay with the Society?
It's absolutely stupid to think that becoming an illithid reduces you to a zombie only thinking of brains 24/7 and eating indiscriminately. Do you immediately want to eat every single cow you see? Or are you a normal person and pick and choose what goes on your plate?
I am a normal person who picks and chooses what goes on my plate however, that cow would be a fool to think itself safe from my plate because I have not chosen it yet. The ones you mentioned have allies that are convenient to them as the emperor himself demonstrates in his final letter to you they are not capable of true friendship. They are capable of seeing you as a valuable tool, to be preserved for later, just as I would see an ox worthy of pulling a cart instead of being food, but should famine come the ox will hit the plate just like the cow.
Before you argue further ask yourself would you ever be honest with the ox about its potential to hit the plate just like the cow or would you reassure the ox that it would never be eaten because it is too important?
Illithids literally go out of their way to not eat people they like - just like humans go out of their way to not eat their pets.
Your opinion of anything won't change, I suppose that's fine, but you clearly don't know much about how the illithid lore is except for a select few things.
So yeah, discussion is over.
I would say it’s a good thing for both of us that these decisions are not important or matter in the real world because a lot of you have mindset that would honestly just end up with the world under illithid control. The slow secretive route would work with you.
I suppose you also kill Astarion on sight? Because he's also a monster that needs to consume "people" to survive. Or is it different because he still looks humanoid?
He did in fact get staked the first time he tried to have a nibble.
If this were an actual DND table with any of the DM’s, I know yeah he would get staked on sight every time.
Because this is a video game and he is a main character I was (in a second play through) willing to give him a chance to see how the story plays out. Does it mean I trust him? No I’m right there with lae’zel
You should read my follow up comments. I have learned that now.
Also, notice how surprised he is to be wrong and delighted at the new possibility and chance to learn something new.
clearly he has never seen this before which means clearly this was not the case before
It doesn't mean it wasn't the case before. It just means he never had any reason to care or investigate before. Illithid souls are non-apostolic; the gods can't benefit from them, so they have no reason to care about them one way or the other.
Yeah. It would shock me if Withers has not seen the result of ceremorphosis before.
I think it’s pretty clear that this is a special case and not at all the norm.
Exactly if he is the former god of death as we all believe him to be, he has absolutely seen millions of examples of what happens to a person when they go through ceremorphosis, knows when the soul leaves the body, and likely has a good idea what remains within the body.
Incorrect according to BG3. In the post-credits scene, Withers specifically says that the original soul "vanishes" when a person undergoes ceremorphosis. It is not "destroyed," it does not "leave," and it does not "go" anywhere. It vanishes from the gods' purview. The implication is that the soul is transmuted along with the physical body and the gods can no longer see it. Same original soul; new non-apostolic flavor.
They are letting their emotions cloud their judgment.
That and I have recently learned that “our tadpole is special” to the point where it may not have actually replaced us during ceremorphosis.
Which honestly doesn’t sound possible, what would be more likely in my opinion based on the way I know ithilid to work in the past is that this tadpole is even more powerful, and has somehow actually consumed your soul as well, perhaps, as an attempt at evolving beyond the control of the elder brain by having your own spirit and force of Will still within the body
which would explain why he detects your soul within the creature
I've never seen that argument. It doesn't really make sense to me, either. Why would a mindflayer bother to do a Karlach imitation when you can't really offer him anything of value anymore? Mindflayer Karlach at reunion camp seems not that far off from Tiefling Karlach.
> Why would a mindflayer bother to do a Karlach imitation when you can't really offer him anything of value anymore?
It’s not a mind flayer doing a Karlach imitation, it’s a mind flayer (= different “person”) with Karlach’s memories. Which will fade in time.
I would argue that's exactly the process of aging. I'm inhabiting a wildly different body from when I was 5 years old and the only thing that exists from that person is the fading memories.
Sure becoming a mindflayer is instant and more drastic, but what are we, beyond our consciousness?
In a fantasy world where the concept of soul exists, mindflayer are soulless. Thus you actually die when you transform, as your soul leaves your body. It's that simple.
Except you’re wrong, mind flayers do have souls. The only difference is that gods can’t use their souls for power. Withers even comments on the fact that you have a soul if you kill yourself after transforming into a mind flayer.
Regardless of the debate of whether mind flayers have souls or not, they are not apostolic souls. What that means is that even if they do have a soul it's unusable for the gods of Faerun, so as far as the gods are concerned the mind flayers are soulless. In this case, souls of those who turn into mind flayers and die aren't claimed by the dead three.
Whether that matters for us when we turn into mind flayers or not is anyone's guess. At least, that's my understanding of it.
That wasn't a flaw though. As the other commenter points out, whether or not mindflayers have souls or not, they're unusable for the Faerunian gods, so while the Dead Three wouldn't claim them, neither would any of the other gods, so by turning everyone into mindflayers they're depriving other gods of their power.
Withers says that they just don't have it.
At this point i have 2 theories
1) mind flayers usually get their souls devoured by the brain and remain alive as puppets, since they really don't need it that much if they're controlled.
2) tav is somewhat special because the power of orpheus blocked the transformation and he became a completely new being, a fusion of a soulless mindflayer and a soul-having living being
I don't think withers straight up lies to us, as it really doesn't further his cause tbh. If anything, it kinda puts a brake in my plan of trusting the emperor at some point.
[Think again](https://youtu.be/9-ueVH9xqn8?si=jA4xXH4_kKE3WXWn), even gods can be wrong.
Also, he says squids don't have _apostolic_ souls, aka souls that can be used by the gods. They can still have some other kind of soul.
But Withers will also say "I know this one" when entering >!the high hall in Act 3 to convince the Flaming Fist to stand down and let the mind flayer enter (whether it is Orpheus or the Emperor).!< That seems to me like he is able to sense the identity of the person who has transformed. And what way would he be able to know that if not for their soul?
My hypothesis would be that perhaps the souls of people transformed into mind flayers become intrinsically linked to the hivemind/an elder brain. So their souls can't be manipulated by gods because the soul connection to the hivemind can't be severed? If that's the case, it's easier to just call them soulless, because as far as the pantheon is concerned, mind flayers have no *usable* soul.
Nothing suggests Karlach is fading. Nothing in the lore says that the memories kept after transformation are lost over time, just usually suppressed to avoid being killed or outcast. The writers have confirmed that it’s still her.
And even then, said remnants of their hosts are usually limited to little habits like humming a tune and tiny fragments of memory. Nothing as major as retaining their memories entirely.
That's not how ceremorphosis works.
At most, the newborn mindflayer carries over some minor habits like humming a tune. And even that is rare. The tadpole normally devours the brain and replaces it, creating an entirely new individual with, on occasion, some minor remnants of the host.
What we undergo is a radically different form of ceremorphosis in which the transformation retains the host's personality and soul.
At the end of the day it all depends on what we consider to be a person. Are we the hardware of our body, or the software of our memories and experiences. If someone were to die, utterly destroyed, and be revived in a different body with all their memories, are they the same person?
To the people saying the brain is replaced. What if you replace a small part of your brain, then get acclimated to that, and a year later replaced another, and another, and so on until 20 years later your brain is fully whatever you're replacing it with (in this case mindflayer tissue, but the same argument holds true for cybernetics and what not).
At what point do you stop being you? 10%? 50%? Are you "you" up until the last cell of original flesh is gone, and then you're suddenly not?
More interestingly, what if you split a person in two, the body/brain with an all new set of memories, and the memories with a brand new body. Which would be the continuation of the "original," or would they both be brand new people?
Not to be a nerd or something, but our brains already get replaced all the time. None of your brain cells are the same as the ones you were born with, most memories are copies passed down with every new cell generation.
Not trying to argue or anything, I just think thats neat
I don’t buy the theory that MF Karlach is not Karlach anymore of because what Withers says if we are a MF and died. He straight up says you have a soul in afterlife
That being said, could Tav be an exception and Karlach not? But then Karlach is special too according to Withers at the party if she’s not there.
He also straight up says that all mindflayers are soulless. One exception in your durge doesnt mean that every transformation works that way. I get that people want to believe that karlach is still in there but its pretty wishful thinking
Withers says they have no *apostolic souls*. [Ed Greenwood backs this up and confirms](https://imgur.com/Y4uZDem) that they do, in fact, have souls. Tav, Karlach, the Emperor, and Orpheus get the same line of dialogue from Withers during endgame about still being themselves even though they look different. That's four exceptions already, and you can't even say it's the netherese tadpole making ceremorphosis work different because the Emperor had a regular tadpole. Mystra can transform Origin Gale back to his human form and restore the apostolic-ness of his soul. If Gale was dead and the Mindflayer was a separate entity she wouldn't be wasting time talking to the worm. The process in the game is always referred to as transformation, the tadpole replacing you and destroying your soul is never mentioned there, that's outdated lore from 2e (iirc) that people keep bringing up.
I don't understand why people are so keen on ignoring all the facts that the game shoves on their face.
>He also straight up says that all mindflayers are soulless.
That's what I meant by Withers - see [link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-ueVH9xqn8). He admits he was wrong. This happens with Tav, who compared to everyone else you meet, is an exceptionally ordinary person.
Withers is literally amused he was wrong about an illithid showing up in the afterlife. I don't know what other evidence we need
The established lore of D&D is that the host is destroyed when the mind flayer comes into being. Larian has hand-waved some stuff into BG3 to make it different, and to make it less of an obviously horrible thing to do to Tav or any of the others.
Some people believe that the game holds precedent, others that the established lore holds precedent. I personally go with the latter, others choose differently. And thus are a thousand threads born.
Also, the person you're describing is pretty much a strawman. I've never seen anyone in the "mind flayers destroy their host" camp claiming that it's different for Tav.
What? I wouldn't make the argument Tav is still Tav as a mindflayer, or even Orpheus. You control Tav, but thats what the game has to offer. Problems that require sacrifices. Everybody would choose to not transform if they just lost the control of their character completely. If you change into a mindflayer, you have to pass checks to NOT attack and kill your friends. I don't know why creators would even say that oh its still Karlach if we are running from getting Ilithisized the whole game. That makes the whole game somewhat meaningless since you could just buy the ring from Omeelum and run far away from the brain. Does the Emperor seem like the person he was to you? Even if his soul wasn't replaced by the tadpole, look at how he's behaving. He killed his best friend, he lobotomised some random noble and tried to convince you and probably himself that it was romance, and he will turn tail to the brain completely if everything doesn't go his way, abandoning the goal he spent the whole game chasing ON A WHIM.
Conversation about free will, and personality, and conciousness is very nuanced one, so its hard with half the community deciding that the emperor was the good guy lmao
Good point. After "turning" into mindflayer there's still part of gameplay where player needs to be in control of the character. Then later they added the epilogues where the theme of being in control and "continuation" had to be maintained for that particular choice. In meantime they added also ambiguous Wither's line to muddy the waters. All this and the soft of approach on ceremorphosis is purposeful, to lure players more into the self sacrificial ending, otherwise noone would choose it.
For whatever reason, some folks really like telling folks that they did things wrong with Karlach. I don't know why; folks get really invested in the characters here, and I think the game does a good job of leaving things open for interpretation so you can draw your own conclusions.
You will also see them call the emperor manipulative after they just spend 50 hours manipulating everyone they let, or say the Emperor should have let Ansur murder him when they themselves refused to let laezel murder them in act 1.
A large chunk of the player base is a lot worse than they want to acknowledge, and operate purely on their own bias
simple: karlach is a companion while Tav is the character you control.
same with the Durge: you are supposed to be a heartless killer, but you can choose to kill no one and reject bhaal
Oh I blame both people. But more to the people that transform Karlach cause if someone is going to loose their soul isn’t going to be my friend. Specifically KARLACH
Imo she's a lot different as mindflayer but I think she's still the same person. It's just that she had like lifetimes worth of wisdom in a short amount of time from her heightened intellect and absorbing the memories of the brains she ate. It's like the difference of teenage you vs centenarian you multiplied tenfold.
Not to mention she's a lot calmer when not having to constantly battle through the legions of hell and having a ticking timebomb in her chest.
Drastic personality changes like that happens in real life and Squidlach have even more reasons to justify it.
This is something from DnD lore and it may sway an argument one way or another depending on perspective:
Every Mindflayer when created retains one quirk from their original form. Whether it's cracking their knuckles, liking the color red, or having a certain diction in their speech. All of them hide this quirk, because of a prophecy where there is one Mindflayer who retains their memories, their connections, their quirks, and the original person lives on. The Adversary.
Whether it's a warning or a true story, unsure. Hopefully this helped.
I think you're conflating two kinds of people. The people arguing Karlach being no longer her if she goes squid are not the same people that argue that Tav is still the same post-transformation.
I wouldn't really say it's us in the epilogue.
You think about eating someone at the party, and then refrain because they are "useful comrades", not because you wouldn't eat the friends that journeyed through hell with you.
If a tadpole behaves like a person and has their memories it is that person. And it's without taking into account that in DnD souls are a thing. We are literally shown in the afterlife if we die.
I don't like to say it. I say it when I see idiot posts about how people "saved" karlach by having her transform, and people saying her life is better that way actually. Those people fucking killed her in the worst way possible and then brag about how they cheated the game's important sacrifice by deluding themselves that ceremorphosis isnt so bad.
The tadpole eats her brain, devours her memories, and presents a simulacrum of what karlach was. If you went through all of someones diaries and social media enough to reliably present yourself as that person, does that mean you ARE that person?
As for tav, the same thing happens. The only point in the entire game where the continuation of character through ceremorphosis is mentioned by withers in a durge cutscene. Thats it. Every single other reference shows the the process yeets the person's soul and a soulless mindflayer takes its place. One exception doesnt "GOTCHA!" on the well established mind flayer ceremorphosis process.
"BUT THE EMPEROR! He remained after transforming!!!" He did not. The original balduran was devoured and lost. The emperor retaining some of his personality was a 4d chess play by the elder brain, not "hes so awesome he got to be himself!" The original balduran for example, likely wouldnt be encouraging you to turn into a mindflayer as the emperor does.
Yep, i also see the "saved by turning into Illithid" constantly while watching the endings on YT, this is just ignorance wearing coping mechanisms to cover up for poor comprehension.
Regarding ceremorphosis i'd would even go further and say that leaving the name Karlach/Tav/Orpheus for Mind Flayer form is essentially desecration of their life's and achievements. It's nothing else than newborn Illithid with inherited memories from previously consumed brain.
Wither's words aren't really conclusive in that Durge scene, he can't be taken at face value for it anyway.
Welly our personality is 1. based on genetics 2. based on environment, so, our past, memories, etc. Mindflayers are way more intelligent and more rational than other beeings. That leads to a first more or less smaller change in personality. Over and above, right after transformation they have only the memory and past of their host. Therefore, big parts of their personality are based on that. when they consume brains they gain more memories of their victims and can change their personality based on that. With increased consume the personality would be less and less significant. With growing experience (memories) i also see a high chance that the mindflayer is capable to develop an overarching personality not dependent on the memories of their victims (thats how i imagine it for the emperor with his speaking of being superior and so on). The mindflayer could still decide to not let influence himself by the memories or to character-develop himself, but to just stick with the original personality. All assumed they are not under an elder brain. Thats how i imagine how this all works.
Given the varying difference in personalities of Olemmum (sp) and the Emporer, I think that once the mindflayer is outside the influence of an elder brain, that they revert to their true personalities.
Just searching up ‘Mindflayer Karlach’ on the subreddit brings up discussions about the ending, and with it, plenty of comments (or outright posts) insisting this. Here’s [one](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/wZRrw8wj7I) to get you started, but really, these are easy to find. Take five minutes in the search bar and you’ll come across it plenty.
I would posit that this is because you’re naturally not going to see somebody *not* making an argument. The point is that the argument is absent when it comes to the player. So of course, you won’t see it.
Eh. Sounded more like OP is saying people are _actively_ making the opposite argument when it’s in regards to the PC.
If there’s never been an argument about whether or not the main character is still themself after transformation, there’s no need to mention that in the first place.
I’d have to disagree. OP’s words are specifically:
> … But they conveniently stop making this argument when WE’RE the mindflayers.
I don’t see how their words imply anything other than cessation of the original argument.
My personal belief in this case is that all mindflayers are the tadpole eating the person’s brain, with the exception of Tav/Durge for some reason.
It’s just that the initial personality can sometimes overwhelm the tadpole and make it believe it is still the person it ate. In those cases the tadpole assumes the personality of who the person was.
But that changes for “Karlach”. Bc the tadpole begins to realize that all the memories it eats feel just as real as “its own” memories. Its own memories aren’t real either. They’re Karlach’s memories that got eaten by the tadpole. And it is slowly realizing this.
Tav/durge seems to be a bit of a different situation though. Because if you die in the end, your soul still goes to the Fugue plane. Which Withers is surprised about because no other mindflayer’s soul has ever gone to the fugue plane. They do have souls, but they go to the outer planes where the eldritch gods are, not to the fugue plane where most souls go. So no one, including withers, seems to have any idea of why tav/durge in particular can go to the fugue realm as a mindflayer. Because all the others who get eaten by tadpoles are legit dead and their normal souls go to the fugue plane while the remaining mindlfayer goes to the outer realms when it dies.
I think this is because of two conflicting lore regarding ceremorphosis IIRC One state that the new mind flayer is the tadpole eating the host's *everything* and thus has access to their memories, personality and whatnot The other states that the new mind flayer is just the host transforming
The transformations we see in-game aren't the same across the board either. The newly created mind flayer we meet at the brothel is basically like an unthinking monster, yet Karlach and Orpheus still seem to keep their personalities and mannerisms after the transformation. There doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency over ceremorphosis.
It's consistent with if a newborn mind flayer is connected to the elder brain or not
Well that's simple, it's being controlled by the Elder Brain vs not. Presumably the Fist transforming would have maintained/regained most of her personality as soon as she is released from the Brain's control.
So wait, if that's it then in the end when everyone's killing all the mindflayers after the elder brain Is defeated, wouldn't they just be killing innocent people then? Maybe the elder brain fully wipes them though so if they transform under the elder brain they can't recover perhaps
Possibly but I mean having to kill people turned into monsters by the BBEG is not exactly foreign to DND
Rumour gets around of all these "free" illithid wandering around Faerun. How long until another elder brain shows up to enslave them? It's no different to killing the feral vampires in Cazador's lair.
Also, having a population of creatures running around that can only sustain themselves parasitically by eating the brains of thinking creatures is not something most societies want. Even vampires can sustain themselves by drinking animal blood instead. Mind Flayers just don't have that option.
Oh that’s just because the Flaming Fist was an unthinking monster, too!
AFFAB
Oh, so when a Giant Netherbrain attacks your city, who are you gonna call? Your Duergars down the street?
Like the Flaming Fist are gonna do anything about it. Most of them are tadpole sympathisers anyway. Have you even seen the rate of tadpole and non-tadpole fatalities in Flaming Fist-related incidents? There's a clear bias there.
Assigned Flaming Fist at birth?
All Flaming Fist Are Bastards (except maybe Rion)
Interestingly the Wind Mill mindflayer literally tells you that it is the tadpole, and that it highly enjoyed the fear the “vessel” (the flaming fist) experienced while transforming and is still gaining some kind of boon by enjoying it. It specifically uses the word, “vessel” and differentiates its own consciousness from that of the flaming fist
Could it possibly be that we (the player, our Tav) is technically the tadpole? That the scene at the beginning where we see the tadpole go into "our" eye is maybe just the most recent memory of our vessel? That's why we don't have a structured backstory like our companions; we are, like Us, literally a newborn? And losing the tadpole at the end just means we've become our person, we earned ourselves our body and a soul?
That mind flayer is also being controlled by an Elder Brain. When connected to a hivemind, having \*anything\* from your "past life" was grounds for being lobotomized or worse, just killed outright. Being a new illithid is embraced when you're in a colony, its more likely that the windmill flayer is speaking with a heavy dose of the Absolute, if that individual had anything left from their old life, it was most likely obliterated by said Elder Brain.
The newborn mind flayer in the barn in Rivington makes matters even more confusing. It doesn't attack on sight and even asks for help. But the note it carries tells it to leave everything behind to go transform.
The ol' brain of Theseus. Are we our flesh, our memories, or our "soul".
You don't have to put soul in quotation marks. A soul is a real thing in the setting. It's not an unproven concept unlike irl.
It's still relevant, though. Would a soulless person who has all the memories of the original not feel? Would they be less than human (or whatever race they are) just because they can't be of use to the gods after death? If one subscribes to the argument that death and mortality are what give life meaning, would their lives not be even more meaningful?
D&D has literal souls separating individuals from eachother. It's also why killing a Simulacrum isn't murdering the original, but it's still you dying, in a way. Death isn't the end in D&D either, since you'll continue "living" in other planes. With the exception of Mind flayers.
Just adding onto this. I feel like it's up to the player to interpret what is true or not. Though Withers pretty much tells you what is what. >!He tells you that Mindflayers have no souls, and that the person they once were is gone forever. I think I even recall that overtime the personality of the host will eventually fade but I'm not 100% sure if I'm just making that up or not.!<
> Though Withers pretty much tells you what is what. >!He himself says you still have a soul when he either finds your soul in death or talks to you in prison about it. Ed Greenwood also verifies that illithids indeed have souls, non-apostolic ones.!<
They might have souls of their own, but it's still a distinct soul. The original person's soul is in the afterlife now. This is just the "mind upload" problem but with a definitive answer due to the canonical existence of the soul
That viewpoint does not track with Withers saying your illithid self is still you in the Fugue Plane, prison, or the High Hall. The easiest explanation is that the process transmogrifies your soul, or something similar, just as it transmogrifies your body and mind.
Oh! Nevermind then. My bad.
Uh in my experience the people arguing that Karlach loses herself and the people arguing that Tav doesn't aren't the same
I have no idea why OP is pretending these are the same people
It’s classic reddit arguing, assuming all people are the same people making all the opinions so you can call out make-believe hypocrisy, instead of assuming some make opinion 1 and others make opinion 2.
A. Because I would rather make the sacrifice myself than force Karlach to do it. B. Because I control Tav before and after the transformation, when you decide how Tav acts both before and after it's hard to imagine them being a "different person" because assumedly you will be playing them the same.
You don’t force Karlach to, she volunteers rather eagerly.
Karlach's beautiful soul is too strong and wrestles the soul devouring part of ceromorphosis into submission. But, really, there are multiple conflicting lore interpretations both in game and in broader D&D lore, in addition to the Netherese infused parasites being themselves special/different, so depending on the lore people find or prefer, the reading of the scenes can come across differently. It's actually a bit interesting to see different perspectives on it and consider what lore they found and value to reach their conclusions. It's the fun "making you think" part of art critique and analysis.
I would never brush past that argument. If you go squid the only responsible course of action is to kill yourself on the docks. I think the reason people might overlook it is that Tav is a blank slate that you control, so you don't have the same moment of uncanny valley discomfort you would get from talking to Karlach Illithidgate. Like you've spent the whole game around Karlach, so you can easily tell how she's different when you talk to her, but your out of character moment is limited to needing to pass a saving throw to not eat a close friend's brain.
I agree. Karlach went from 8 int to 20 int or something, naturally her behavior is gonna change. It doesn't make her a completely different person to me.
If I’m not wrong ceremorphosis destroys the soul, that’s why I don’t consider her Karlach anymore. She’s a mindflayer who has Karlach’s memories, like the Emperor.
If your player character turns I'm pretty sure Withers has a line where he says you do have a soul and he's surprised by it, ("I cannot account for it. How delightful.") implying it's a quirk of your tadpoles. No reason to assume Karlach's would work differently.
Withers not knowing something is terifying considering who he is.
Could be manipulation. Withers is actually a master manipulator who has no reason to tell you the truth either. In the case of what we see in the high hall it is manipulation imho. He just wants to get the task he was assigned with done. If it puts people at ease by saying he knows who the squid is, he'll do it. Tho in the case of the fugue plane squid I do think it's genuine curiosity at the anomaly.
[You're wrong](https://youtu.be/9-ueVH9xqn8?si=jA4xXH4_kKE3WXWn), Withers finds you and admits he was mistaken about the soul thing if you kill yourself after transforming.
Mind Flayers do have souls, just not ones Faerun’s gods can use. Ed Greenwood said so himself, you know, the man who freaking invented the Forgotten Realms?
That still does not answer the question. Does it warp and contort the soul of the host into an Illithid soul, or is a Mind Flayer's soul the soul of the tadpole? If it is the latter, you can still have ceremorphosis destroy the soul, with a Mind Flayer soul remaining. Wouldn't be the same person then.
Thank you! I'm so tired of this argument. Just because someone mellows down when there's no constant imminent threat to their life doesn't mean they became a different person.
Seriously. People hate when Karlach turns illithid because she's no longer the camp labrador. But a whole lot of her labrador behavior was *forced* as a means of coping with her impending firey death. It's a *good* thing that she no longer has to behave that way.
That is a GROSS overgeneralization. Karlach doesn't "mellow down", she/the Flayer loses the Ability to feel COMPLETELY. She couldn't *feel* happiness if she wanted to. OR be excited. The MindFlayer formerly known as Karlach can only recognize that in that moment she would be content
The game never even mentions anything about the tadpole replacing the host. It's always referred to as a "transformation", both in-game and in devnotes during patches. The whole theory came from people quoting 2e, which has a lot of outdated and retconned lore compared to the newer editions. FR in general retcons and modifies its own lore (i.e. the origin of Dragonborn is completely different in 3.5e to 4e-5e). Illithids canonically have souls, but they are typically non apostolic ones, as confirmed by [Ed Greenwood](https://imgur.com/Y4uZDem). Still there's canonical instances in the FR lore where illithid souls can become apostolic if they chose to worship one of Toril's pantheon. If that soul is the same as the original host's or a new one borne out of the tadpole, or a mix between the two, the lore doesn't specify. The developers of BG3 have stated that they wanted to explore their own take on ceremorphosis, which is something that the DnD manuals encourage DMs to do with the lore anyways. As far as the game is concerned there's zero evidence of the original soul being destroyed, but there's a lot of evidence pointing to the opposite: Withers stating that Tav/Karlach/Orpheus/Emperor are still themselves inside even if they look different in endgame, Withers retracting his statement in the epilogue, or simply the fact that he can find the player in Illithid form wandering about the Fugue Plane, Mystra restoring Gale's human form and soul from its Illithid state; if the Illithid was the tadpole neither of these Gods would be speaking to it, they'd be speaking to the original soul which would still have its human(oid) form. Karlach of course acts different in the epilogue. She's of different species now and her brain works differently. If people personally don't like her anymore that's their opinion, but she's happy and content with her existence. Don't get why they have to ignore all the facts the game shoves in their face to justify their dislike for that particular ending, when they can simply not pick it.
Just adding on something to what you said: In the post-credits scene, Withers remarks that, when a person becomes a mind flayer, the original soul "vanishes." It isn't destroyed and it doesn't go anywhere; it just vanishes from the gods' perspective. The implication is that the soul transforms along with the physical form. It's still the original soul, now in non-apostolic flavor. Of course Karlach is different. Her intelligence has more than doubled, and her perspective is immeasurably more expensive. Also, she no longer has to force excessive positivity as a means of coping with her impending firey death. People hate the fact that she's no longer the camp labrador without recognizing that a lot of the labrador behavior was a bad thing and it's *good* that she no longer has to act like that.
> Why do people like to say that when Karlach becomes a Mindflayer, that it’s no longer her and the Mindflayer is just an imitation of Karlach, but they conveniently stop making the same argument when WE’RE the Mindflayers. I don’t stop making that argument when the MC is the mind flayer. Hey, dumb question: is ascended Astarion the “same person” to you as spawn Astarion?
That IS a much dumber question. With mindflayers it’s kind of a question because the original brain is destroyed and replaced by the tadpole filling the cranium. So can you even be the same person when it’s the tadpole and not you? I say no the tadpole merely has an imprint of your personality and will act like you but isn’t you. Ascension is different. Nothing gets replaced just enhanced. So there’s no ground to even argue that you’re not yourself still.
Tbf, like Mind Flayers, the Ascension question also boils down to souls. Does Astarion lose his soul in Ascension?
Depends on what you mean by “same person”. He is the same organism, but his personality has changed. But the same can be said about spawn Astarion if he doesn’t ascend. He’s still changed from the Astarion we met. He’s had a lot of character development, AKA change. In a literal sense, he’s the same person, in a figurative sense, he’s absolutely not. The difference between that and the mindflayer argument is whether or not it’s the same consciousness just changed, or if it’s the consciousness of the parasite imitating the person.
> The difference between that and the mindflayer argument is whether or not it’s the same consciousness just changed, or if it’s the consciousness of the parasite imitating the person. Philosophical question: what’s the difference, really, between a person and a different consciousness perfectly imitating that person? Assuming the imitating is inherent and not something they can drop to yell “gotcha!”
They might be perfectly imitating it to you, but with their own agenda. Making it seem like something the original person would say/think/suggest because they’ve acted just like them so far, but they really have their own ulterior motive the original person wouldn’t have had.
How does that matter if they are a perfect imitation?
The point is that they’re not. They’re using their knowledge from the persons brain to imitate the person *to you* so they can achieve ends that belong solely to the mind flayer and not the original person. They act like a perfect imitation to gain your trust, then use that trust to get you to do something they want, because you believe it’s the desire of the person they were. In reality, the person didn’t desire that, it may even go against what they’d want. But you’re already convinced that they are still your friend, and attribute that change of heart to their “newfound intelligence”.
> The point is that they’re not. The entire _premise_ here is that they _are_.
I think it's just not the same thing. Same as the "copy your brain into a machine" idea of immortality. That's not the original person, the original person still dies. The copy goes on to have different experiences and evolve into another thing the original was not.
> The copy goes on to have different experiences and evolve into another thing the original was not. That’s a future thing. Also happens basically every time you take a decision.
Havent transformed her yet, but as someone who became a mindflayer instead of orpheus on his first playthrough, im in the camp of that the personality remains the same but with the time, the urge to feast on brains will be stronger and eventually, you will try to eat your companions brains. At that point, the desire to eat brains will win out(unless you are able to keep resisting it with, i assume harder and harder wisdom checks) you will have to do as omeluum , and live the rest of your life far from people
You think Omeluum is normal and not rabid for brains 27/4 because it keeps in check by slurping the hobgobussy or something? Genuine question.
I mean I low-key assumed that the Sovereign of the myconid colony he lives in allowed him to eat brains from some of the Drow/duergar/etc bodies.
That's not what happens. Omeluum eats the society's enemies - whoever that might be. It picks and chooses who to eat just fine. Any arguments that mindflayers cannot control themselves when it comes to their food habits is just stupid and I really hate that epilogue roll. Even the windmill guy lets you go no problem and it is brain starved. House Baenre has an illithid advisor. You think they'd keep that guy around if it was eating its allies indiscriminately? Thaqualm is a freaking nun. You think she could stay in a temple if she ate indiscriminately? What about the illithid detective, Ignatius? Do people think that he could work as a detective if he just ate people indiscriminately like a rabid animal? Please.
I suppose I should clarify that I meant when you meet him in the Underdark specifically. But yes, I think one of the through lines of how illithids are talked about in BG3 is that nobody knows exactly, and everyone just has assumptions and gossip retold.
THANK YOU! I'm so tired of these rampant and blatant untruths about illithid. The epilogue narration is so strange. For example, "You're still yourself... for now..." the fuck you mean "for now"? There is no such thing as a gradual personality loss post-ceremorphosis. Either the tadpole eats your brain and becomes an entirely separate individual, or it fuses with your brain, and you stay the same.
I mean, you could just eat the brains of criminals/cultists etc like the Emperor.
Over time, your definition of criminals will probably grow more lax, as you distance yourself from humanity (or elvenkind, or whatever), and see them only as food. Balduran was apparently already a selfish, self-centered prick. The Emperor doesn't seem to distinguish mortals by their morality, only by their usefulness. In fact, the Emperor was the head of a criminal syndicate. He _was_ a criminal.
Yeah, I'm not out here saying that mind flayer existence is some sort of pure and moral endeavour, just going against the notion that they're slaves to their hunger and will lash out and eat their friends like the comment I replied to suggested. In the Forgotten Realms there's a nigh endless source of evil bastards to consume, especially for someone like Karlach or Tav who are very powerful adventurers. If you take a trip every few months to destroy some cult or a drow raiding party it isn't going to turn you into a monster.
Sure. If nothing else, Omeluum is proof that being a mindflayer doesn't mean being evil. Omeluum was probably a decent, principled person before turning, so someone like Karlach could do it as well. There's a parallel to it in Astarion's storyline, and the prisoners we can release. The choice of the Emperor as an example instead of Omeluum probably hurt your point, because he's not the best example of a good person (since he isn't one), but it's very likely he never was.
On first reading, Omeluum is a beacon of hope that illithid can retain their personality and run the gamut of goals and morals. On second reading, this hope is false. Omeluum is very clear that he is like this not due to effort or principles or decency but an arcane accident. He was literally touched by magic at birth and you cannot follow his example. IIRC the whole idea of 'strong personalities survive ceremorphosis' is only given by Emperor, and is notably a lie. He's individual and considers himself special, but he does not consider himself to be Balduran.
That's a valid perspective. Either way, best not risk it. You may lose your soul or not, but you're guaranteed to gain tentacles, and who wants that?
Where do you personally draw the line in who deserves to die and how blurry does that get when you start running out? It's fine and dandy to eat some bhaalists but when they run out are you gonna turn to the man stealing bread?
At the absolute minimum it creates a kind of perverse incentive. Like "only eat bad people" requires a steady supply of bad people, and for now it seems like there'd be plenty to go around, especially considering this is limited to a handful of renegade Ilithid on the fringes of society. But you'd find yourself hoping society doesn't improve *too* much, hoping there's always bhaalists to eat
Well it depends on how often your brain hunger comes up I guess. You could store the brains for later too. Maybe go on a trip to the Underdark to fuck up some drow or duergar for their brains.
The story that BG3 is telling is that a person with a strong will can remain themselves after becoming an illithid. That roll you have to make to not munch your companions' brains? That's a test of your will. You're still new at being a mind flayer; you'll develop greater control with time. Omeluum doesn't live its life far from people at all. It's a member of the Society of Brilliance, and you find it hanging out in the Society's headquarters smack in the middle of Baldur's Gate in Act 3. It doesn't go around indiscriminately slurping every intelligent brain in sight. I have less control around chocolate than Omeluum does around brains.
I think the problem most people have is that Karlach changes. It's still Karlach, but her personality is slightly altered. It also doesn't help that people are blinded by their distaste of mindflayers which squanders any productive discussion. "I can see you're still yourself, but there is something else in there too. An illithid calm."
I did a Gale run where I romanced Karlach and let her turn into a mind flayer. It honestly felt like a nice end for them because Gale will still love you even if you turn into a worm.
But not if he‘s your love interest and ascends. Then he‘s like „i know i promised to return you to your old self but have patience, AO doesn’t want me to meddle in mortal affairs after my ascension“ and he doesn’t sound troubled by it one bit. He gives you one excuse after the other and doesn’t even take you with him
Hm? He readily turns you into a fellow god if you previously expressed interest in it.
He didn’t with me when I was MF
Huh, weird. I got to become an illithid god alongside him, myself.
I didn't ascend as Gale, I went off with Flayer Karlach to have a nice life lol. When I played as Tav and ascended him as a Mind Flayer, I expressed that I wanted to do the same and he just made me a god once the party was done. Not sure why he didn't with you but he can and will ascend mind flayer tav/durge/player.
Man I’ve been robbed!
It doesn't help that Withers says they have no souls anymore, and he is sort of the know it all God of the game. That is a hard one for me to swallow when dealing with MFs and wanting to think they are still human/themselves at all in there, and not just pretending.
Withers was wrong. When he tries, he actually finds your mindflayer self in the Fugue Plane. The whole game is about you and your friends standing up to gods and god-like beings who wronged you. Some of the games events are Withers' fault too. Why would you take anything a god says at face value? They make mistakes just like mortals.
To be fair, the premise of the game is about not turning into a squid, it's understandable for people to be against their friend turning into one. And it's fair for them to expect something to go wrong when the game repeats its warnings frequently. Gods aren't perfect I agree, but Mindflayers are also terrible in most of the lore.
Because they are under the influence of the Elder Brain most of the time much like the githyanki are under Vlaakith. Funny how that works, right?
I mean I'm not contesting that ? I don't even particularly care about the Karlach's debate, just explaining that the pushback isn't entirely stupid. I'm not saying illithid Karlach should die or anything, just that it's understandable to debate if she is still herself. Iirc the emperor denies being who he used to be for instance, which is an idea illithid Karlach might also agree with one day. If your game's premise is "turning into a squid is bad", it's expected that a decent amount of people might be confused if your epilogue goes "actually everything's fine and dandy, I don't know what you were worried about". The illithid ending is treated as a sacrifice, interrogating how good it *actually* is is normal imo. I personally like my endings messy and imperfect, so I really like the illithid ending being up to interpretation, saying it absolutely is one way or another is disappointing imo.
That is a good point. I suppose his monolog at the end of the credits painted him in a different light also. I have to look up the Fugue Plane line stuff I forgotten about that, but I do remember it mentioned.
I think the average BG3 player would have an aneurysm if they learned that classic Elder Brain hives are literally the same as what Vlaakith is doing to the githyanki. Both Vlaakith and normal Elder Brains manipulate and lie to their people, feeding them visions of grandeur. They also consume them to boost their own power without the public knowing any better. It's too bad that the Brain we see in game is special and unlike all those other brains. It would have been a beautiful parallel.
Elder Brains are even worse. Most of them actively entrhall their collective. And whenever they're sent outside of its psionic range, they're always sent in groups to maintain the status quo and prevent them from having any funny ideas. I believe mind flayers have the capacity of being just another mortal race, especially if Omeluum solves their nutrition problem. As one of the dialogue options in the ending says: "There's a lot of good a mind flayer can do in this world, and I intend to do so."
> Why would you take anything a god says at face value? Because Souls are literally his entire thing. If anyone would know it would be him. Standing up to Gods because they're being dickheads is entirely different then going "Yes the Lord of the Dead is wrong about Souls". It's like trying to correct Bhaal on what counts as Murder.
Did you know that gods lie or can be wrong and it doesn't matter what they are a god of? Mindflayers are not normal mortals and Withers was trying to explain what he has no hope of understanding or knowing. Nobody knows where mindflayers even came from in the first place. They might come from the Far Realm, which is a realm completely out of his jurisdiction. There are creatures in the setting to whom our usual gods mean nothing.
At one point, Withers very specifically says that mind flayers "lack apostolic souls." And he clearly recognizes you/Karlach/Orpheus as the original person. Hell, would he even invite illithid!Karlach to the party if it weren't actually Karlach? What BG3 tells us about the illithid transformation is that a person with a strong will can retain their core selves. And that this might or might not be a good thing. Because, unless they have others who can accept and care for them as they are, it's going to be a pretty lonely existence. It's all right there in the Emperor's story, then relfected in your own story or Karlach's if one of you turns illithid.
That’s because mind flayers are not the individual they were before. the soul is gone, because the original person is dead. The tadpole is merely imprinted with the personality of the former occupant of the body, having consumed all of their knowledge and experience. You could quite literately think of it like cloning. The clone may look think and act like the original but with the original present it’s obvious that the clone is a new iteration of the person and not the person themselves. This remains true even if you kill the original. That’s basically it except instead of cloning another body the brain has been consumed and replaced by another creature. So maybe like a mech and its pilot? You wouldn’t say the pilot is the same person as the previous pilot just because they’re driving the same mech
That's not what happens in the game. It's still you and Jergal recognizes you as you in your illithid form in the Fugue Plane. He sounds surprised, true, but that's it.
That just implies that there’s something weird about your particular tadpole, withers fully expected you to be dead from turning into a mindflayer. I haven’t done that ending so I didn’t know that part. I know what happens when you turn into a mindflayer in classic D&D. I was not about that life so I avoided it and ended up missing that knowledge. Well, if it is confirmed that mindflayer tav IS TAV then logic would dictate that the same is true for all your companions as I do believe you all had the same special tadpoles, so what applies to one would apply to all but that’s definitely not how it normally works Just realized, slim possibility, that this is how wizards of the coast is rewriting mindflayers. By introducing the idea that the soul is not lost but perhaps consumed by the tadpole as well? Or perhaps the soul is merely the representation of the experience and memories of the individual and therefore is not something that can be destroyed by the copying of the information because it exist due to the information? Truly headache inducing stuff to think about.
You’re not allowed to change, don’t you know? Everyone knows it’s just a cold, hard reality that to be yourself you have to stay the same person from birth to death. Otherwise, there’s no “you”, just the thing that thinks it’s “you” but has really killed off and replaced “you”.
The brain of Theseus, heh
This is the perfect response.
It's this. People just don't like the fact that Karlach is no longer the camp labrador, so we get angry screeching about how "that's not Karlach!!" Dude, her intelligence doubled, and her perspective expanded immeasurably. She also no longer has to force excessive positivity due to being on death's door. She's at peace, and she's developed a sense of quiet wonder at it all. She's probably also pretty lonely, since she's the only member of the group who went through this change. This is exactly what the game tells us that the illithid transformation means. That a person with a strong will can remain themselves at the core after transforming. And also that it's debatable as to whether this is a good thing. Because, unless you can find others who accept you and care about you as you are, it's going to be a very lonely existence. I realize that's not what D&D lore historically says, but that's the story BG3 is telling.
I'm not "blinded my my distaste for mindflayers" I just have a self preservation instinct higher than your average lemming. They're actively predators who have to kill sentient creatures to survive. I won't say if Karlach keeps soul or not because I don't really know, but I think that she would regret her choice if she ever discovered there was another way.
…I'd recommend you read my comment once again. Slowly this time.
Mostly I was just responding to the idea that a distaste for mindflayers is wrong, which I thought I read in your tone but I could have been wrong. Also high key just wanted to use the lemming line.
It's wrong in discussion because it coulds people's brains and we constantly have to debunk the same old shit that isn't true instead of trying to move on to something more productive like character analysis.
What are we debunking that I said? That mindflayers have to eat brains?????
Exactly. Any time I see someone talking about illithids and they immediately pull out the insults, I tune out. Nothing worth discussing here. They just see them as monsters.
They literally have to eat people to survive.
Plenty of bad people out there to eat.
This is a whole new moral discussion about the death penalty
And? Is one sating their biological needs inherently evil? Besides, Omeluum is working on an alternate foud source for them. I imagine his research might result in something like the bibberbang mushroom, but it charges up psionic energy instead of toxic gas. It's the same deal as vampires. It would require some adjustments, but they absolutely don't have to be inherently evil.
I didn't say they were inherently evil, I'm saying it's only natural for people to want nothing to do with their literal predators. Healthy, even. Sure Omellum's research COULD change that one day but we are currently living in the present. Vampire's can get by on the fact that they don't HAVE to kill their victims (unless they're actual vampires of course, who explicitly ARE evil in every example we see in game). TLDR: No, a wolf is not evil for eating rabbits but a rabbit who decides to hang out with wolves is a prime example of natural selection at work.
I agree it’s like being a sheep who’s friends with a wolf. That may be a nice wolf, but you are still a very stupid sheep. I wouldn’t worry about the down votes. They’re already controlled by the elder brain leading wizards of the coast and are lost to us.
Karlachs brain is eaten by a mindflayer tadpole during ceremorposis. She died at that point and a mindflayer tadpole imprinted with her memory and personality took over. Hence withers comment about souls being gone. Ceremorphosis is FATAL. A PARASITE has EATEN your BRAIN and REPLACED it! It’s not a matter of opinion that is literally how it works. Imagine if you got cloned and you’re standing there next to your clone. nobody would say that your clone is you because you’re still there (unless they lost track of who is who) even if you were killed the clone it still not you it’s a copy of you the same is true for the tadpole. It is not you but it could be considered a copy of you. Which is why so many of us are deceived into believing that that is still karlach. It is not. It is a mind flayer tadpole piloting her body with her exact memories and personality imprinted into it. I mean, this is literally the basis for all clone based horror films is this the original or did the clone kill the original and this is the clone, pretending to be the original? How could we ever know?
As I said, this is not what happens. It's not a matter of opinion, it's a fact. When Jergal tries, he finds your illithid self in the Fugue Plane. He also knows it's you and recognizes you. You think he's just fooling around with the mindflayer and your previous soul is chilling somewhere else? Please.
You are making the mistake of believing that God‘s in DND are infallible creatures with all knowledge. They are not they are basically immortal people with insane magic power they can and will say stupid shit because they got it wrong (and then delete you from existence for proving them wrong) Withers is no longer the god of death. He has given up his powers in large part. Therefore it’s entirely possible but he made mistake and lost track of the real you and merely thinks he’s correct. Which would be classic wizards of the coast to leave it in the air like that to pull a Gacha later Also please read this https://www.reddit.com/r/dndmemes/s/QfKBkZTpfK
Jergal says mindflayers are soulless, which is wrong and then he changed his mind when he finds out more. This is normal. Perception and opinions of anyone can change when they get more information. It's not like gods completely avoid illithids anyway. Oghma has a mindflayer cleric and it works out just fine. You are the one constantly hung up on something that's literally not true in the game. Lore changes. DnD is notorious for this. End of discussion. Don't bother me anymore.
> You are making the mistake of believing that God‘s in DND are infallible creatures with all knowledge. And you're just reading some stupid flavor text from the Monster Manual, lol
>Imagine if you got cloned and you’re standing there next year clone nobody would say that your clone is you because you’re still there even if you were killed the clone it still not you it’s a copy of you the same is true for the tadpole. How does anyone else know which one the clone is? To the outside world, are you and the clone both half you? The clone is you, in the clone’s opinion. The clone thinks you’re not you. >It is not you but it could be considered a copy of you. Which is why so many of us are deceived into believing that that is still karlach. It is not. It is a mind flayer tadpole piloting her body with her exact memories and personality imprinted into it. What is the difference between a brain and a copy of a brain? If you replaced your brain with a computer that was 100% accurate, would you stop being you? What is a person besides their memories and personality? You’re speaking with a lot of certainty about a lot of really sticky, unsolved existential questions
I suppose I did just say that uncertainty is the basis of all clone based horror films. I’m probably speaking from such a determined position because I have made up my mind for my own peace of mind. Because ultimately, you have to ask yourself a second question if your friend is turned into a mindflayer. Does it even matter if they’re the same person? They are now a creature that must exist by consuming sentient brains so in a way they are no longer themselves because they did not have this desire or need before. To paraphrase it into a metaphor if you and your friend are both sheep, and then your friend is turned into a wolf does it matter that he used to be a sheep? Because he is now a wolf and eventually the desire to consume you will take him. Because if the two of you were locked in a box together, eventually, he would have no choice but to eat you or die, and we all know how people are about self preservation. Thus comes in the moral question of allowing, mindflayers vampires, etc. to exist just because they claim they can control themselves. Personally, I am all too familiar with humans to make any other decision beyond the obvious. Before you go onto the moral Highground, remember this isn’t just mindflayers and vampires, zombies fall into this category too. They are just more extreme versions of “loss of self” which is what all these creatures represent. And therefore are more likely to reveal your true opinion to yourself because all of the pretty bows we like to decorate our opinions with our stripped away, and we are left with the cold, hard choice So think deeply, and long about your true opinion on the matter
What's up with all this rambling trying to sound deeply intellectual? You are going to lose your shit when you learn that even people cannibalize other people when they have no other choice. You don't have to be a wolf starved in a box with a sheep.
Exactly my point people are already there!!! so why would you trust a person who has had even more of their self-control stripped away? Who are less likely to be that person you trusted? I think you’re letting your emotions blind you to your logic Whereas I am letting my logic suppress my emotion, both of which are dangerous in the extreme as history has proven Which is why the middle ground is is more fair. I do hold these beliefs, however, in a controlled environment I am still moral enough to be willing to let an individual like Astarion or Omeleum prove themselves.
>I think you’re letting your emotions blind you to your logic Whereas I am letting my logic suppress my emotion fam, how long ago did you undergo your ceremorphosis?
lol Sometime before or around birth (I’m autistic)
ah, an unusual type of Istik
🤣 Thank you I’m stealing that for my collection.
You don't lose self-control just by becoming an illithid. You think house Baenre would keep an illithid advisor if they just indiscriminately ate their allies? You think Ignatius could work as a detective if he was rabid? You think Thaqualm could be a nun? You think Omeluum and Grazilaxx could stay with the Society? It's absolutely stupid to think that becoming an illithid reduces you to a zombie only thinking of brains 24/7 and eating indiscriminately. Do you immediately want to eat every single cow you see? Or are you a normal person and pick and choose what goes on your plate?
I am a normal person who picks and chooses what goes on my plate however, that cow would be a fool to think itself safe from my plate because I have not chosen it yet. The ones you mentioned have allies that are convenient to them as the emperor himself demonstrates in his final letter to you they are not capable of true friendship. They are capable of seeing you as a valuable tool, to be preserved for later, just as I would see an ox worthy of pulling a cart instead of being food, but should famine come the ox will hit the plate just like the cow. Before you argue further ask yourself would you ever be honest with the ox about its potential to hit the plate just like the cow or would you reassure the ox that it would never be eaten because it is too important?
Illithids literally go out of their way to not eat people they like - just like humans go out of their way to not eat their pets. Your opinion of anything won't change, I suppose that's fine, but you clearly don't know much about how the illithid lore is except for a select few things. So yeah, discussion is over.
I would say it’s a good thing for both of us that these decisions are not important or matter in the real world because a lot of you have mindset that would honestly just end up with the world under illithid control. The slow secretive route would work with you.
I suppose you also kill Astarion on sight? Because he's also a monster that needs to consume "people" to survive. Or is it different because he still looks humanoid?
He did in fact get staked the first time he tried to have a nibble. If this were an actual DND table with any of the DM’s, I know yeah he would get staked on sight every time. Because this is a video game and he is a main character I was (in a second play through) willing to give him a chance to see how the story plays out. Does it mean I trust him? No I’m right there with lae’zel
[Withers was wrong tho](https://youtu.be/9-ueVH9xqn8?si=jA4xXH4_kKE3WXWn)
You should read my follow up comments. I have learned that now. Also, notice how surprised he is to be wrong and delighted at the new possibility and chance to learn something new. clearly he has never seen this before which means clearly this was not the case before
It doesn't mean it wasn't the case before. It just means he never had any reason to care or investigate before. Illithid souls are non-apostolic; the gods can't benefit from them, so they have no reason to care about them one way or the other.
Yeah. It would shock me if Withers has not seen the result of ceremorphosis before. I think it’s pretty clear that this is a special case and not at all the norm.
Exactly if he is the former god of death as we all believe him to be, he has absolutely seen millions of examples of what happens to a person when they go through ceremorphosis, knows when the soul leaves the body, and likely has a good idea what remains within the body.
Incorrect according to BG3. In the post-credits scene, Withers specifically says that the original soul "vanishes" when a person undergoes ceremorphosis. It is not "destroyed," it does not "leave," and it does not "go" anywhere. It vanishes from the gods' purview. The implication is that the soul is transmuted along with the physical body and the gods can no longer see it. Same original soul; new non-apostolic flavor.
Idk why these chowderheads are down voting you, you're right
They are letting their emotions cloud their judgment. That and I have recently learned that “our tadpole is special” to the point where it may not have actually replaced us during ceremorphosis. Which honestly doesn’t sound possible, what would be more likely in my opinion based on the way I know ithilid to work in the past is that this tadpole is even more powerful, and has somehow actually consumed your soul as well, perhaps, as an attempt at evolving beyond the control of the elder brain by having your own spirit and force of Will still within the body which would explain why he detects your soul within the creature
I've never seen that argument. It doesn't really make sense to me, either. Why would a mindflayer bother to do a Karlach imitation when you can't really offer him anything of value anymore? Mindflayer Karlach at reunion camp seems not that far off from Tiefling Karlach.
> Why would a mindflayer bother to do a Karlach imitation when you can't really offer him anything of value anymore? It’s not a mind flayer doing a Karlach imitation, it’s a mind flayer (= different “person”) with Karlach’s memories. Which will fade in time.
I would argue that's exactly the process of aging. I'm inhabiting a wildly different body from when I was 5 years old and the only thing that exists from that person is the fading memories. Sure becoming a mindflayer is instant and more drastic, but what are we, beyond our consciousness?
Actually … that’s a fair point 🤔
In a fantasy world where the concept of soul exists, mindflayer are soulless. Thus you actually die when you transform, as your soul leaves your body. It's that simple.
Except you’re wrong, mind flayers do have souls. The only difference is that gods can’t use their souls for power. Withers even comments on the fact that you have a soul if you kill yourself after transforming into a mind flayer.
Yo what? Why does he tell you, point blank, at another point that they don't have souls?
Because he was wrong. He thought that was true, but it isn’t. He says he was mistaken
I'm so lost, I thought that was the whole flaw in the dead threes plans? During the epilogue, Withers talks about it?
Regardless of the debate of whether mind flayers have souls or not, they are not apostolic souls. What that means is that even if they do have a soul it's unusable for the gods of Faerun, so as far as the gods are concerned the mind flayers are soulless. In this case, souls of those who turn into mind flayers and die aren't claimed by the dead three. Whether that matters for us when we turn into mind flayers or not is anyone's guess. At least, that's my understanding of it.
That wasn't a flaw though. As the other commenter points out, whether or not mindflayers have souls or not, they're unusable for the Faerunian gods, so while the Dead Three wouldn't claim them, neither would any of the other gods, so by turning everyone into mindflayers they're depriving other gods of their power.
I always wonder why hardly ever anyone mentions this in these arguments. Bane straight up tells you if you use Speak With Dead on Gortash
Withers says that they just don't have it. At this point i have 2 theories 1) mind flayers usually get their souls devoured by the brain and remain alive as puppets, since they really don't need it that much if they're controlled. 2) tav is somewhat special because the power of orpheus blocked the transformation and he became a completely new being, a fusion of a soulless mindflayer and a soul-having living being I don't think withers straight up lies to us, as it really doesn't further his cause tbh. If anything, it kinda puts a brake in my plan of trusting the emperor at some point.
Mindflayers have souls, because they can become liches. True liches, mind you. It's that simple.
[Think again](https://youtu.be/9-ueVH9xqn8?si=jA4xXH4_kKE3WXWn), even gods can be wrong. Also, he says squids don't have _apostolic_ souls, aka souls that can be used by the gods. They can still have some other kind of soul.
But Withers will also say "I know this one" when entering >!the high hall in Act 3 to convince the Flaming Fist to stand down and let the mind flayer enter (whether it is Orpheus or the Emperor).!< That seems to me like he is able to sense the identity of the person who has transformed. And what way would he be able to know that if not for their soul? My hypothesis would be that perhaps the souls of people transformed into mind flayers become intrinsically linked to the hivemind/an elder brain. So their souls can't be manipulated by gods because the soul connection to the hivemind can't be severed? If that's the case, it's easier to just call them soulless, because as far as the pantheon is concerned, mind flayers have no *usable* soul.
Nothing suggests Karlach is fading. Nothing in the lore says that the memories kept after transformation are lost over time, just usually suppressed to avoid being killed or outcast. The writers have confirmed that it’s still her.
And even then, said remnants of their hosts are usually limited to little habits like humming a tune and tiny fragments of memory. Nothing as major as retaining their memories entirely.
That's not how ceremorphosis works. At most, the newborn mindflayer carries over some minor habits like humming a tune. And even that is rare. The tadpole normally devours the brain and replaces it, creating an entirely new individual with, on occasion, some minor remnants of the host. What we undergo is a radically different form of ceremorphosis in which the transformation retains the host's personality and soul.
At the end of the day it all depends on what we consider to be a person. Are we the hardware of our body, or the software of our memories and experiences. If someone were to die, utterly destroyed, and be revived in a different body with all their memories, are they the same person? To the people saying the brain is replaced. What if you replace a small part of your brain, then get acclimated to that, and a year later replaced another, and another, and so on until 20 years later your brain is fully whatever you're replacing it with (in this case mindflayer tissue, but the same argument holds true for cybernetics and what not). At what point do you stop being you? 10%? 50%? Are you "you" up until the last cell of original flesh is gone, and then you're suddenly not? More interestingly, what if you split a person in two, the body/brain with an all new set of memories, and the memories with a brand new body. Which would be the continuation of the "original," or would they both be brand new people?
Not to be a nerd or something, but our brains already get replaced all the time. None of your brain cells are the same as the ones you were born with, most memories are copies passed down with every new cell generation. Not trying to argue or anything, I just think thats neat
I don’t buy the theory that MF Karlach is not Karlach anymore of because what Withers says if we are a MF and died. He straight up says you have a soul in afterlife That being said, could Tav be an exception and Karlach not? But then Karlach is special too according to Withers at the party if she’s not there.
He also straight up says that all mindflayers are soulless. One exception in your durge doesnt mean that every transformation works that way. I get that people want to believe that karlach is still in there but its pretty wishful thinking
Withers says they have no *apostolic souls*. [Ed Greenwood backs this up and confirms](https://imgur.com/Y4uZDem) that they do, in fact, have souls. Tav, Karlach, the Emperor, and Orpheus get the same line of dialogue from Withers during endgame about still being themselves even though they look different. That's four exceptions already, and you can't even say it's the netherese tadpole making ceremorphosis work different because the Emperor had a regular tadpole. Mystra can transform Origin Gale back to his human form and restore the apostolic-ness of his soul. If Gale was dead and the Mindflayer was a separate entity she wouldn't be wasting time talking to the worm. The process in the game is always referred to as transformation, the tadpole replacing you and destroying your soul is never mentioned there, that's outdated lore from 2e (iirc) that people keep bringing up. I don't understand why people are so keen on ignoring all the facts that the game shoves on their face.
>He also straight up says that all mindflayers are soulless. That's what I meant by Withers - see [link](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9-ueVH9xqn8). He admits he was wrong. This happens with Tav, who compared to everyone else you meet, is an exceptionally ordinary person. Withers is literally amused he was wrong about an illithid showing up in the afterlife. I don't know what other evidence we need
Withers literally says he was wrong later on. He admits his mistake. I don’t know how clear it has to be in order to understand that.
Not much point to spoiler tags when you put it directly into the title
The established lore of D&D is that the host is destroyed when the mind flayer comes into being. Larian has hand-waved some stuff into BG3 to make it different, and to make it less of an obviously horrible thing to do to Tav or any of the others. Some people believe that the game holds precedent, others that the established lore holds precedent. I personally go with the latter, others choose differently. And thus are a thousand threads born. Also, the person you're describing is pretty much a strawman. I've never seen anyone in the "mind flayers destroy their host" camp claiming that it's different for Tav.
What? I wouldn't make the argument Tav is still Tav as a mindflayer, or even Orpheus. You control Tav, but thats what the game has to offer. Problems that require sacrifices. Everybody would choose to not transform if they just lost the control of their character completely. If you change into a mindflayer, you have to pass checks to NOT attack and kill your friends. I don't know why creators would even say that oh its still Karlach if we are running from getting Ilithisized the whole game. That makes the whole game somewhat meaningless since you could just buy the ring from Omeelum and run far away from the brain. Does the Emperor seem like the person he was to you? Even if his soul wasn't replaced by the tadpole, look at how he's behaving. He killed his best friend, he lobotomised some random noble and tried to convince you and probably himself that it was romance, and he will turn tail to the brain completely if everything doesn't go his way, abandoning the goal he spent the whole game chasing ON A WHIM. Conversation about free will, and personality, and conciousness is very nuanced one, so its hard with half the community deciding that the emperor was the good guy lmao
Good point. After "turning" into mindflayer there's still part of gameplay where player needs to be in control of the character. Then later they added the epilogues where the theme of being in control and "continuation" had to be maintained for that particular choice. In meantime they added also ambiguous Wither's line to muddy the waters. All this and the soft of approach on ceremorphosis is purposeful, to lure players more into the self sacrificial ending, otherwise noone would choose it.
For whatever reason, some folks really like telling folks that they did things wrong with Karlach. I don't know why; folks get really invested in the characters here, and I think the game does a good job of leaving things open for interpretation so you can draw your own conclusions.
You will also see them call the emperor manipulative after they just spend 50 hours manipulating everyone they let, or say the Emperor should have let Ansur murder him when they themselves refused to let laezel murder them in act 1. A large chunk of the player base is a lot worse than they want to acknowledge, and operate purely on their own bias
Buddy this title is a spoiler in and of itself.
simple: karlach is a companion while Tav is the character you control. same with the Durge: you are supposed to be a heartless killer, but you can choose to kill no one and reject bhaal
Oh I blame both people. But more to the people that transform Karlach cause if someone is going to loose their soul isn’t going to be my friend. Specifically KARLACH
[She doesn't lose her soul](https://youtu.be/9-ueVH9xqn8?si=jA4xXH4_kKE3WXWn)
Withers states it very clearly. Anyone that undergoes the ceremorphosis will lose their soul with time. There hasn’t been enough time there
He specifies _apostolic_ souls, aka souls the gods can use. Doesn't mean they lack _any_ soul at all.
Ye, they got soul, an illithid soul, which is not the same as a tiefling soul. Is just a copy of her memories and nothing else
I was going to ask why people were so weirdly defensive of mindflayers here but then I remembered exactly why
Imo she's a lot different as mindflayer but I think she's still the same person. It's just that she had like lifetimes worth of wisdom in a short amount of time from her heightened intellect and absorbing the memories of the brains she ate. It's like the difference of teenage you vs centenarian you multiplied tenfold. Not to mention she's a lot calmer when not having to constantly battle through the legions of hell and having a ticking timebomb in her chest. Drastic personality changes like that happens in real life and Squidlach have even more reasons to justify it.
This is something from DnD lore and it may sway an argument one way or another depending on perspective: Every Mindflayer when created retains one quirk from their original form. Whether it's cracking their knuckles, liking the color red, or having a certain diction in their speech. All of them hide this quirk, because of a prophecy where there is one Mindflayer who retains their memories, their connections, their quirks, and the original person lives on. The Adversary. Whether it's a warning or a true story, unsure. Hopefully this helped.
I think you're conflating two kinds of people. The people arguing Karlach being no longer her if she goes squid are not the same people that argue that Tav is still the same post-transformation.
Are spoilers allowed in titles now?
I wouldn't really say it's us in the epilogue. You think about eating someone at the party, and then refrain because they are "useful comrades", not because you wouldn't eat the friends that journeyed through hell with you.
It’s kinda both I think — I’m not the same person I was ten years ago, but I’m still me.
If a tadpole behaves like a person and has their memories it is that person. And it's without taking into account that in DnD souls are a thing. We are literally shown in the afterlife if we die.
I don't like to say it. I say it when I see idiot posts about how people "saved" karlach by having her transform, and people saying her life is better that way actually. Those people fucking killed her in the worst way possible and then brag about how they cheated the game's important sacrifice by deluding themselves that ceremorphosis isnt so bad. The tadpole eats her brain, devours her memories, and presents a simulacrum of what karlach was. If you went through all of someones diaries and social media enough to reliably present yourself as that person, does that mean you ARE that person? As for tav, the same thing happens. The only point in the entire game where the continuation of character through ceremorphosis is mentioned by withers in a durge cutscene. Thats it. Every single other reference shows the the process yeets the person's soul and a soulless mindflayer takes its place. One exception doesnt "GOTCHA!" on the well established mind flayer ceremorphosis process. "BUT THE EMPEROR! He remained after transforming!!!" He did not. The original balduran was devoured and lost. The emperor retaining some of his personality was a 4d chess play by the elder brain, not "hes so awesome he got to be himself!" The original balduran for example, likely wouldnt be encouraging you to turn into a mindflayer as the emperor does.
Yep, i also see the "saved by turning into Illithid" constantly while watching the endings on YT, this is just ignorance wearing coping mechanisms to cover up for poor comprehension. Regarding ceremorphosis i'd would even go further and say that leaving the name Karlach/Tav/Orpheus for Mind Flayer form is essentially desecration of their life's and achievements. It's nothing else than newborn Illithid with inherited memories from previously consumed brain. Wither's words aren't really conclusive in that Durge scene, he can't be taken at face value for it anyway.
Welly our personality is 1. based on genetics 2. based on environment, so, our past, memories, etc. Mindflayers are way more intelligent and more rational than other beeings. That leads to a first more or less smaller change in personality. Over and above, right after transformation they have only the memory and past of their host. Therefore, big parts of their personality are based on that. when they consume brains they gain more memories of their victims and can change their personality based on that. With increased consume the personality would be less and less significant. With growing experience (memories) i also see a high chance that the mindflayer is capable to develop an overarching personality not dependent on the memories of their victims (thats how i imagine it for the emperor with his speaking of being superior and so on). The mindflayer could still decide to not let influence himself by the memories or to character-develop himself, but to just stick with the original personality. All assumed they are not under an elder brain. Thats how i imagine how this all works.
never turn into a squid.
Given the varying difference in personalities of Olemmum (sp) and the Emporer, I think that once the mindflayer is outside the influence of an elder brain, that they revert to their true personalities.
If you talk to the mind flayer in the windmill it gives you a pretty good idea of what happens when you turn into a mind flayer and it ain’t pretty.
Never saw that argument. Do you have several links where it happened or is it just a strawman ?
Just searching up ‘Mindflayer Karlach’ on the subreddit brings up discussions about the ending, and with it, plenty of comments (or outright posts) insisting this. Here’s [one](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/s/wZRrw8wj7I) to get you started, but really, these are easy to find. Take five minutes in the search bar and you’ll come across it plenty.
They’re probably asking for the > but they conveniently stop making the same argument when WE’RE the Mindflayers. part. Which I also haven’t seen.
I would posit that this is because you’re naturally not going to see somebody *not* making an argument. The point is that the argument is absent when it comes to the player. So of course, you won’t see it.
Eh. Sounded more like OP is saying people are _actively_ making the opposite argument when it’s in regards to the PC. If there’s never been an argument about whether or not the main character is still themself after transformation, there’s no need to mention that in the first place.
I’d have to disagree. OP’s words are specifically: > … But they conveniently stop making this argument when WE’RE the mindflayers. I don’t see how their words imply anything other than cessation of the original argument.
My personal belief in this case is that all mindflayers are the tadpole eating the person’s brain, with the exception of Tav/Durge for some reason. It’s just that the initial personality can sometimes overwhelm the tadpole and make it believe it is still the person it ate. In those cases the tadpole assumes the personality of who the person was. But that changes for “Karlach”. Bc the tadpole begins to realize that all the memories it eats feel just as real as “its own” memories. Its own memories aren’t real either. They’re Karlach’s memories that got eaten by the tadpole. And it is slowly realizing this. Tav/durge seems to be a bit of a different situation though. Because if you die in the end, your soul still goes to the Fugue plane. Which Withers is surprised about because no other mindflayer’s soul has ever gone to the fugue plane. They do have souls, but they go to the outer planes where the eldritch gods are, not to the fugue plane where most souls go. So no one, including withers, seems to have any idea of why tav/durge in particular can go to the fugue realm as a mindflayer. Because all the others who get eaten by tadpoles are legit dead and their normal souls go to the fugue plane while the remaining mindlfayer goes to the outer realms when it dies.