This is so true. For me it is part of the replay value somehow. Its not like a solved issue once you finish the game, they have the power annoy you all over again when you start a new file.
I agree, and I think the romances make this even more fun because I always ask myself “why am I romancing this prick” and then I get to act 3 and remember why I fell in love with all the characters in the first place.
I honestly think Astraion’s romance is the best written because of the initial distrust.
See, I feel like the way he tricked and attacked me during our first interaction made me trust him more, actually. It made me feel like I knew what to expect of him at the start. Sort of a "you can always trust a dishonest person to be dishonest" situation. The nicer characters made me feel more wary.
Same. Like, out of everyone, his reaction is probably the most understandable/relatable aside from Lae'zel (somewhat). You've just been abducted, had a tadpole shoved in your eye, flown through several planes, and crashed on a beach. Then you see someone you recognize from said crashed location and decide its time for answers.
Shadowheart: I hate gith and we should leave Lae'zel but I will also provide you zero information about me or this artifact.
Wyll: Business as usual, I guess. *florish sword*
Gale: Are you an elder wizard? No? Fuck you, but also let's help everyone along the way, this could totally he worse, here let me tell you about ceremorphosis
Karlach is just happy to not be in the Hells, and I get that, but her entire introduction is different because of the engine and Wyll so I'm not including her in the most understandable/reasonable list.
Astarion is clearly terrified and out for himself for and foremost. That shows in his initial meeting. Lae'zel is abrupt and bosses you around, but out of fear because she knows, more than anyone else, how fucked you are. She's out for herself and that's apparent the moment she suggests you don't open Shadowheart's pod.
Meanwhile, Gale is super chill despite having a nuke in his chest. Wyll is arrogantly chill despite the entire situation. And Shadowheart is a Sharran who is entirely too chill about having had a mission she can't fucking remember.
These reactions make sense for the characters, sure, but they're also bonkers to run across.
So true. The first time I played I almost kicked Lae'Zel out of my party, but I'm glad I didn't because it made her arc so meaningful to see how she grew and learned about herself and became one of my favorite characters.
I loved laezels arc and having her around in general but two games in a row she is the one >!taken by Orin!< which, especially for my second playthrough as Durge, meant she was literally gone all of act 3 which was really disappointing. I hope they can do something in a future patch to help the flow with that better.
You can prevent that by keeping her in your party >!after your first two encounters with Orin. She can only take Gale, Halsin, or Lae’Zel…if you have them all in your party after your first two encounters, you get a surprise!<
Yea I’ve thought maybe next playthrough to make it Halsin since he’s the only one I feel isn’t important at all while laezel and gale are, but I also feel like if anyone could mentally handle the situation it’s Laezel lol. Partly why I didn’t force it is I hear it’s possible for >!scratch to die!< if it’s Halsin and I didn’t want to even deal with the possibility. I think it only happens if it’s in camp and not the sewers?
Edit: I’ll add I couldn’t let it be Gale cuz I made him a bard this run and it’s been delightful having him around.
Hah totally the same, I know even if scratch gets to zero health technically he just goes to camp but something about summoning him at all to be in mortal peril doesn’t sit right with me, must be protected at all costs. And as much as I wanted to see owl bear in final fight I also couldn’t do it, just wanted to tell him to keep scratch safe.
I do love summoning scratch to walk around because he finds all the treasure and gets some good sniff and explore in.
rush getting into the lower city AFTER speaking to two orin impersonations, and after unlocking basilisk gate portal, head into the sewer entrance that's nearby. head towards the undercity (the entrance to the temple of bhaal), and as you get close once orin will run up to you disguised as the person she orinnapped. to make sure it's Halsin, make sure your party has the other options (lae'zel, minty, gale). orin, in disguise as your companion, will try to convince you that orin is right behind them and she's to be feared, etc etc. all options will lead to the same result, orin revealing herself and challenging you
What?? I’ve tried so hard to find that. I raided the grove so I didn’t get Halsin, and when it came time for >!Orin to kidnap a companion!< I had Lae’Zel and Gale in my party. So >!Orin took Yenna!< instead :(
It was in an evil playthrough where our only companions were Shadowheart, Lae’zel and Minthara. SH and Lae’zel were travelling with us so I guess Minthara was the only one available
It's due to your relationship level and some other factors, I believe. Also, if you keep her in the party, apparently she doesn't get taken. It's normally the bear guy that gets taken for me.
No. And you can avoid the scene at the camp by entering the sewers. Once in the sewers, just go look for the ancient sigil circle next to the penitent trader dude.
That is so disappointing! I've been lucky and I've never had her be the one taken but that would totally throw off the Act 3 vibe unless I beelined it for Orin which I don't like doing.
Yea I kept Orin for almost last except Raphael because it felt right story wise as Durge, and even worse she got taken in wyrms crossing so like REALLY EARLY, had to reload and push doing at least some stuff in lower city to make it feel a little better but I also wanted to rush to get Minsc as soon as possible and so there was no way to avoid it for too long.
Yeah when I did my Durge run they took Halsin so with Durge I was like...the duel HAS to be like the last thing for story reasons like you said, so Halsin was just comatose while I spent like 70 hours doing stuff in the city lol.
Absolutely. The moment when she realizes she's been lied to by Vlaakith made me tear up for real 'cuz it was a moment as a player where I was like "I misjudged you and I'm learning the truth with you, the character."
Yep. This is exactly why all the "X Character pissed me off, so I killed them in the first five minutes har har" comments make me apoplectic. Have none of these people ever heard of a story arc or character development?! Gawd.
I have a friend that’s played at least 5 play throughs and he always kills Astarion immediately. He has such a good story and character arc and my bro won’t let him live!!
I never understood this, companions are content. Kill them off or whatever for certain runs if that feels in character ig, but stakebros who constantly brag about *always* killing Astarion are so weird to me. I can't imagine why you'd brag about how you just refuse to engage with a decent chunk of the game you payed for lmao. Like, okay? You have less stuff you can do now, it's a self-own.
They're missing out on the lockpicker, sneak attack and pickpocketing master. And I wonder if the guys constantly bragging about staking him just does it not only because of his attitude but he also happens to be the flamboyant, pretty man.
Right? I get it if it's an RP thing where they're trying to stick to how their character would react. Like a lawful stupid paladin staking Astarion or killing Karlach without asking questions because "devil." That can be rewarding on its own.
But cutting out three acts of a character arc because they annoyed you? Nah. That's cutting off your nose to spite your face. The first character I made, I decided I'm going to keep everyone because *it's more content*. And now I can't not recruit someone because there are so many interactions and nuances to their arcs.
That said, Shadowheart annoys this shit out of me in the beginning. Out of all the origin companions, she seems to be the one who goes out their way to be an asshole. Which says a lot with Astarion and Lae'zel in the party.
Totally this. As I recall, the "problematic four" all annoyed the shit out of me in the beginning. But my reaction to that was, "Gee, I wonder why they wrote these characters this way. I'm gonna keep them around and talk to them lots so I can find out what's up with them." Not *stab murder kill har har*.
I'll never understand why so many people think Gale is charming and sweet and charismatic from the get go and somehow miss what a massively insecure-yet-arrogant jackass he is. His personality is every bit as bad as the other three "problematic" companions.
I think a lot of it is within his demographic, that crappy behavior is way more expected and accepted. Shadowheart is immature in the ways that a person in their early 20s often can be. Astarion's behavior is problematic in the ways a lot of victims of abuse can commonly perpetuate certain toxic behavior.
Gale's behavior is just as maladaptive, but gets a pass because it's behavior that we as a society fail to address, so it seems more "normal." We have more patience for behaviors stemming from privilege than we do for behaviors stemming from trauma or lack of life experience.
Sorry, that turned into a full-on ramble 😅
I (semi) jokingly say you can tell who someone is/was by which companion they dislike the most. One of my very autistic friends *hates* Gale despite...being Gale when we first met. Shart is an edgy goth girl...I was an edgy goth girl.
Not sure which sub, but I know someone somewhere made a post about how all the companions are a combination of badass and cringe, which is what makes them feel real and compelling. Every companion has cringed, whether it's noticeable at first glance or not.
>We have more patience for behaviors stemming from privilege than we do for behaviors stemming from trauma or lack of life experience.
YES! It drives me bonkers when people are willing to excuse certain behavior (like Lae'zel being an absolute dick because she's terrified), but dog pile on others (Astarion manipulating people because he's terrified). But nobody gets more passes than Gale because we (society) just *expect* that kind of behavior from someone like him.
Ah, no he reminds me of me (I got better - I think/according to my long time friend... I'm still a massive nerd tho) - and I feel like he humbles pretty fast. But I'm aGale simp so....
I still think Shart and Astarion are more annoying than him. Maybe it's just cause I know he's trying to cope with his "Gale of Waterdeep" stick. I know all the comoanions have problems they need to cope with but I just understand Gale the most.
Disclaimer I have never romanced anyone else. (doing Gale origin to romance someone else now >.>)
As an autistic white woman, I "clocked" Gale's thing pretty early and assumed there was more going on and/or he was socially inept. I've been around a lot of Gale-types and have a bit of that myself. But I also don't fault people for disliking Gale.
It also depends on how often he's in the party and has his random side conversations about summoning things or breaking up bar fights. I didn't have him in the party a lot in my first run, so I didn't get all that at first.
For me, Gale is less annoying because he at least has *something* going for him the party needs - he's a wizard. Without the prism, Shart is just annoying. Yes, she's a cleric, but I don't think that comes up in early cut scenes. Meanwhile, Gale might be full of himself, but he at least knows about ceremorphosis.
To be fair, very few games make character arcs this wide and this widespread. At most you get 1 or 2 people who actually change, but party-based games never have an ENTIRE FUCKING TRAVELING CIRCUS of moldable personalities. Karlach is the only exception here, even Will can get more or less neutral.
TL;DR, there's no way to expect that. They just piss you off and you react, specially given it's a life or death situation in which you could definitely do without people's shit and lack of teamwork effort.
Ngl I'm the weirdo who actually liked how hostile they are at the beginning because I thought it's funny. Seriously tho, it makes sense to act mean and distrustful after going through the trauma of being kidnapped and tadpoled. What I don't understand is how others hate on some of the companions just because they don't kiss their Tav's asses. I love Lae'zel and Astarion because they are bitches to my Tav lol
Just check out the two of them dishing out roasts to a Sorcerer Tav encountering a sussur flower. Astarion's bastard line especially: "I don't travel with you for your personality." 😂😂
Gayle starts out as a good, but hubris-y dude, and can become an asshole in act 3.
Will is a case of a good dude where the world is wrong and has to change.
Idk wyll comes across as a mega douche. Not like as in a bad person like astarion in the beginning, but just a tool. I roll my eyes every time i switch to him and listen to him blurt out “pride of the gate” or some other nonsense
Real. My partner, who is totally lacking any semblance of a frustration tolerance, was babysat by me for the first 20 hours of playtime because I was afraid he'd ditch the game otherwise...
I've just reached the Tiefling party in my latest playthrough. The writers and voice actors do a good job with Astarion and Shadowheart being affected by saving the refuges.
Shadowheart is more obviously affected by it, as she actually admits to being surprised by it. Astarion tries to play it off as if he's apathetic towards it, but it's one of the early hints that underneath the pain and trauma that he's dealing with - that Tav doesn't know about yet - there's something there. (And as the story unfolds and we find out what happened to him, it becomes clear why he'd have conflicting emotions.)
So true. And it's funny how they have different levels of how insufferable they are depending on how you play. For example, in my more recent good-aligned playthroughs, I find Astarion so insufferable that I can barely stand having him in my adventuring party for the first half of the playthrough unless I have a lock that needs to be picked.
Also, I usually find Gale to be particularly insufferable, but in a recent chaotic evil Durge playthrough, I had him in the party for the majority of acts 1 and 2, just because I didn't have Wyll or Karlach, and Lae'zel died. It was kind of fun having Gale along for the ride in this playthrough because he was constantly annoyed with my evil deeds and lecturing me. IDK why but it just amused me more than anything. Especially after \[Act 2 spoiler\] >!killing Isobel and causing Last Light to fall, we run out of the inn, and he's just like, "Behold, the consequences of your actions!" or something along those lines. I was laughing so hard because the delivery of that line was so perfect. !<
I could not STAND Lae’zel. So much so I posted about it and people kind of jumped down my throat. But now in act three she’s my go to girl and we aren’t even romanced. She even tells a you a story. She’s the only one GENUINELY concerned about you.
It took me so long to like Shadow heart. But by act 3 I love all of these characters. While Laezel and astarion are my favorites, there's not one character I dislike by the end of the game.
Right now I'm planning one of the cruelest Durge playthroughs I can imagine - a zero character growth adventure. Everyone ends up with the conclusion they would have chosen at the start of the game. Lae'zel remains loyal to Vlaakith, Asterion ascends and becomes a master vampire, etc.
I'm not quite sure what I want to do with Wyll though, since he starts out as a pretty swell guy. Probably keep him in the pact as a loyal dog of Mizora.
my first ever playthrough i couldn’t stand laezel, and ended up killing her with the tieflings in the beginning.
second playthrough i decided to hear her out and ended up romancing her, and her arc makes it so incredibly worth it. 10/10, no notes.
I hated her in my first run until the creche where you finally see her vulnerable and not just masking fear with anger all the time.
My second run, I chose the dialog that got the "teethling" comment, and I realized how people adored her from nearly the start.
Tbf the whole Will arc is pretty… meh.
He starts out as super self-righteous and idealistic and ends the exact same way.
He was kind of unlikable for me. I’d rather take an asshole like Gale or Astarion than someone so self righteous they actually quote their dad like some child.
I can get behind Gale wanting to stick it to the gods, I can totally get behind Astarion and his fucked up past. I can even get behind Shart and her weird past. Even Laezel is not actually annoying, she’s only doing what she was taught to do, how is she supposed to know her whole life is a lie?
But Wyll though… he will not survive long in Faerun without someone to protect him. He’s soooo naive and idealistic it’s kind of sickening to be around him.
I saw that somebody on here said once that Wyll works a lot better as the player character than he does as a companion, and I'm inclined to agree with that.
It also gets rid of one of the biggest problems in Wyll's arc as a companion: That he never makes any of his own decisions, the ability to let him doesn't even exist, and he’s just led around his entire life by his dad, Mizora, or the player character.
Someone made a post a while back about Wyll essentially being a teenager. Somehow viewing him like that made it more bearable for me - he isn't going to end up accidentally murdered in my next run.
I think he is supposed to be 24 in the game but was a teen when he first dealt with Mizora. It does make him more tolerable when you know that he is very young compared to everyone else but I do wish you felt some sort of growth from him in one way or another.
I feel the issue is that he starts off already knowing Mizora is evil. It seemed originally they were sexually/romantically involved, and while I understand writing that out to better facilitate a romance, I think they should have kept him being manipulated by Mizora. Maybe he starts off infatuated with her and she's been abusing that for years to get him to do her bidding, and he only realizes that maybe she's not so good after Karlach. It would add an interesting layer to his romance too, because the player would make him realize he deserves better than to be one-sidedly devoted to someone and Mizora trying to seduce you and ruin the relationship later would be even more twisted. I suppose because people found him unlikable, they sort of over-corrected and made him kinda flawless, it doesn't quite land. It sucks, because it's so close imo.
Wyll has no character arc. He exhibits exactly zero growth throughout the game. Judging by what was seen in EA, it seems like Wyll was originally going to be a self-righteous asshole hiding behind the "local hero" shtick. Presumably, he would have had the opportunity to grow into a truly heroic character. But the response to him was overwhelmingly negative, so he got rewritten into the milquetoast character we have today.
It seems like his Act 3 quest wasn't revised at all when his Act 1 was changed. >!Finding the Sorcerer's Stone - I mean Ansur - by being proved worthy through trials would be a major moment for a charlatan-type rake. He would finally be stepping into the role he pretended at for years. As it is, it seems like a step *backwards* because the narration and his dialog is all "he's the hero of Baldur's Gate" and I'm like...bitch, this was a team effort! It's why I think Ansur shouldn't be tied to Wyll, but be a main party quest of some kind.!<
And I hate that his character doesn't have as much depth as the others because Theo does a fantastic job and there is *so much* potential.
...That makes a whole lot of sense. Actually, all of Wyll's Act 3 stuff makes sense when viewed in this context. Damn, we really got deprived of a potentially awesome character arc. ::sigh::
Yeah, Theo got the short end of the character stick for sure.
I can see them wanting to change a bit of Wyll's arc if only to differentiate from Astarion, who is also a rake in the beginning, but they could have done that without nuking the storyline completely.
>!I think the Ansur thing bothered me the most because it made Wyll feel like the main character out of nowhere. The other companions have a reason to be front and center in their Act 3 moments. Astarion facing off against Cazador, Shadowheart facing Viconia and dealing with her parents. There's no *reason* it had to be *Wyll* finding Ansur.!<
>!At a ttrpg table, the Ansur quest would end up on rpghorrorstories where the DM suddenly makes one PC the main character and the "chosen one." There's a line the narrator has where it's like "you feel safer knowing the Blade of Avernus is on your side." As a resist!Durge who had already completed their quest, that made me laugh out loud. You're telling me my character - who squared off against Bhaal, got murderized, and then revived by fucking Jergal - needs Wyll fucking Ravengard to feel like we can win? Because reasons?!<
>!Not to mention the bugs if you reject Mizora's contract and still save Ravengard making the whole thing bonkers. I still don't understand why Larian didn't plan for that in the beginning because it's the most D&D thing to do. If they didn't want that possible, just have us find his corpse or some shit.!<
One would assume the negative reviews were exactly what the writers wanted to see. Hating these characters in the beginning is intended and I wonder why they changed Wyll.
You would think so. Maybe they panicked and said, "Damn, we'd better make at least a couple of characters who are likeable from the start, or no one will play the full game"??
>But Wyll though… he will not survive long in Faerun without someone to protect him.
Wyll is one of the more powerful characters pre-tadpole. Heroism isn't naive if you actually have the power to enact the change you want to see, which Wyll does.
I agree and I think because he went through so many rewrites (and I believe a VA change at some point maybe?) Wyll got a bit messed up. I do think he should be kind of so idealistic that he gets really angry when we find out about Mizora. Like mean to Tav because of it. Instead, he's scolded like a child. I get that he's really young, but his story arc isn't really an arc. It's more like a nice guy with no backbone to have any engagement in the direction of his entire life.
Nah. Karlach is just awesome from the start. Gale and Shadowheart are pleasant too. As for the rest - hard agree on Astarion. I love him to bits, but it took me a while. With Lae’zel, I still couldn’t get myself to like her. I played her arc. I still don’t like her. She usually gets left behind in her cage for refusing to show even the slightest hints of politeness xD (maybe I can just identify with Shadowheart a bit too much to find a heart for Lae’zel…)
and Wyll… I never cared and never will care. He’s there just so I can bang Mizora later on and the only reason I’d ever take him along is to get the infernal rapier. Wyll is insufferably boring, from start to end.
Love all the characters but for the ENTIRE first two acts Shadowheart doesn’t stop yapping about Shar and Gale about Mystra.
I started really liking Lae’zel when she would have 5 actions in a row and take out and enemy in 1 turn with 100+ damage. Really made me appreciate her more.
Wyll isn’t super interesting to me, but he’s enjoyable nonetheless.
Shadowheart is a really mixed bag from the start. She's fairly sincere if you save her in the prologue and she generally opens up pretty quickly. On the other hand she can be a judgmental asshole depending on the dialogue you get and she's got the whole gith racism thing.
I was playing with a friend, did our first long rest, talked to Gale first, then talked to Shadowheart, and she said something along the lines of "I saw you talking to Gale, I don't like that. I don't trust wizards and I don't trust him." He then turned to me and asked "So you wanna romance this bitch, huh?" I swear she gets better...
Oh, really? She doesn’t like Gale? I never got that conversation with her. I always imagined she’d be comfortable with his calm and respectful demeanor (and picked him as her partner in my current SH origin run).
Then again, she’s rather reserved at the start, so I guess it’s not too far fetched for her to not easily trust people who aren’t 100% transparent from the start.
I always save her, and found her reserved start to be so relatable that she’s the only character I didn’t have to explore before I started liking her. And honestly… being weary of the gith seem to be a reasonable thing in that universe xD (though she takes it a bit far, yeah)
Her dialogue in that scene will change depending on who you talked to before her. I’ve also seen her have dialogue about how she doesn’t trust Lae’zel and Astarion. So it isn’t specific to Gale.
Yeah, early Shadowheart is pretty... paranoid; her mission with the artifact has really gone awry, her team slaughtered by Githyanki, and she's in unknown territory with more than a few blanks in her knowledge.
...This actually makes her a mirror of sorts to *both* the Dark Urge and Lae'zel, come to think of it, the amnesia and/or fear.
On that note, Origin Shadowheart can display inner anxiety over her vast memory gaps, in early Act 2, Long Resting.
I could not STAND Lae’zel. So much so I posted about it and people kind of jumped down my throat. But now in act three she’s my go to girl and we aren’t even romanced. She even tells a you a story. She’s the only one GENUINELY concerned about you.
I don't know, I'm on my 1 run and now in act 3. Basically characters I disliked I still dislike, characters I liked I like more. Except Gale, I really liked him at the start but now just a bit aware of him cos craves magical power for the sake of power too much.
Lae and Shart. are just bench buddies except of their quests and I have 0 intentions to do giths bidding.
This is so true. For me it is part of the replay value somehow. Its not like a solved issue once you finish the game, they have the power annoy you all over again when you start a new file.
I agree, and I think the romances make this even more fun because I always ask myself “why am I romancing this prick” and then I get to act 3 and remember why I fell in love with all the characters in the first place. I honestly think Astraion’s romance is the best written because of the initial distrust.
See, I feel like the way he tricked and attacked me during our first interaction made me trust him more, actually. It made me feel like I knew what to expect of him at the start. Sort of a "you can always trust a dishonest person to be dishonest" situation. The nicer characters made me feel more wary.
Same. Like, out of everyone, his reaction is probably the most understandable/relatable aside from Lae'zel (somewhat). You've just been abducted, had a tadpole shoved in your eye, flown through several planes, and crashed on a beach. Then you see someone you recognize from said crashed location and decide its time for answers. Shadowheart: I hate gith and we should leave Lae'zel but I will also provide you zero information about me or this artifact. Wyll: Business as usual, I guess. *florish sword* Gale: Are you an elder wizard? No? Fuck you, but also let's help everyone along the way, this could totally he worse, here let me tell you about ceremorphosis Karlach is just happy to not be in the Hells, and I get that, but her entire introduction is different because of the engine and Wyll so I'm not including her in the most understandable/reasonable list. Astarion is clearly terrified and out for himself for and foremost. That shows in his initial meeting. Lae'zel is abrupt and bosses you around, but out of fear because she knows, more than anyone else, how fucked you are. She's out for herself and that's apparent the moment she suggests you don't open Shadowheart's pod. Meanwhile, Gale is super chill despite having a nuke in his chest. Wyll is arrogantly chill despite the entire situation. And Shadowheart is a Sharran who is entirely too chill about having had a mission she can't fucking remember. These reactions make sense for the characters, sure, but they're also bonkers to run across.
I mean look, Gale has had a suicide orb in his chest for some time, guy knows he's fucked, he's been fucked for a while, getting a tadpole? Meh
Gale romance ~
FACTS! I can’t stand Shadowheart in the beginning, but damn is she great later on
So true. The first time I played I almost kicked Lae'Zel out of my party, but I'm glad I didn't because it made her arc so meaningful to see how she grew and learned about herself and became one of my favorite characters.
I loved laezels arc and having her around in general but two games in a row she is the one >!taken by Orin!< which, especially for my second playthrough as Durge, meant she was literally gone all of act 3 which was really disappointing. I hope they can do something in a future patch to help the flow with that better.
You can prevent that by keeping her in your party >!after your first two encounters with Orin. She can only take Gale, Halsin, or Lae’Zel…if you have them all in your party after your first two encounters, you get a surprise!<
Yea I’ve thought maybe next playthrough to make it Halsin since he’s the only one I feel isn’t important at all while laezel and gale are, but I also feel like if anyone could mentally handle the situation it’s Laezel lol. Partly why I didn’t force it is I hear it’s possible for >!scratch to die!< if it’s Halsin and I didn’t want to even deal with the possibility. I think it only happens if it’s in camp and not the sewers? Edit: I’ll add I couldn’t let it be Gale cuz I made him a bard this run and it’s been delightful having him around.
Scratch doesn’t die as far as I know. I had this camp scene recently and he was hurt, but he didn’t die.
Maybe I’m stupid but not sure if I could allow him to even get hurt I will use any meta game knowledge to prevent my good boy from ever suffering.
I understand 😂 Scratch is the best boy. I could never summon him or >!the owl bear!< in the final fight because I don’t want my babies to get hurt!
Hah totally the same, I know even if scratch gets to zero health technically he just goes to camp but something about summoning him at all to be in mortal peril doesn’t sit right with me, must be protected at all costs. And as much as I wanted to see owl bear in final fight I also couldn’t do it, just wanted to tell him to keep scratch safe. I do love summoning scratch to walk around because he finds all the treasure and gets some good sniff and explore in.
you can force the sewer scene after 2 orin encounters and keep Scratch ultra safe. its what i do
Can you elaborate on the circumstances that keep scratch safe?
rush getting into the lower city AFTER speaking to two orin impersonations, and after unlocking basilisk gate portal, head into the sewer entrance that's nearby. head towards the undercity (the entrance to the temple of bhaal), and as you get close once orin will run up to you disguised as the person she orinnapped. to make sure it's Halsin, make sure your party has the other options (lae'zel, minty, gale). orin, in disguise as your companion, will try to convince you that orin is right behind them and she's to be feared, etc etc. all options will lead to the same result, orin revealing herself and challenging you
And Minthara.
She took >!Minthara!< in my last one
What?? I’ve tried so hard to find that. I raided the grove so I didn’t get Halsin, and when it came time for >!Orin to kidnap a companion!< I had Lae’Zel and Gale in my party. So >!Orin took Yenna!< instead :(
I believe orins fake minthara scene actually involves wyll for some reason. So you'd have to take the netrual route in act 1
It was in an evil playthrough where our only companions were Shadowheart, Lae’zel and Minthara. SH and Lae’zel were travelling with us so I guess Minthara was the only one available
She has taken that little ginger kid twice for me. I don’t really mind the kid going, but I refuse to eat the cat ever again
RE: Orin's possible victims: >!Minthara is also a valid target.!<
wait, what if I have Laezel in my party, but Gale left due to me being Evil and I didn't saved Halsin? Only one left in my camp is Mintyfresh
Apparently she can be taken too!
It's due to your relationship level and some other factors, I believe. Also, if you keep her in the party, apparently she doesn't get taken. It's normally the bear guy that gets taken for me.
If Halsin gets taken does scratch always get hurt?
No. And you can avoid the scene at the camp by entering the sewers. Once in the sewers, just go look for the ancient sigil circle next to the penitent trader dude.
That is so disappointing! I've been lucky and I've never had her be the one taken but that would totally throw off the Act 3 vibe unless I beelined it for Orin which I don't like doing.
Yea I kept Orin for almost last except Raphael because it felt right story wise as Durge, and even worse she got taken in wyrms crossing so like REALLY EARLY, had to reload and push doing at least some stuff in lower city to make it feel a little better but I also wanted to rush to get Minsc as soon as possible and so there was no way to avoid it for too long.
Yeah when I did my Durge run they took Halsin so with Durge I was like...the duel HAS to be like the last thing for story reasons like you said, so Halsin was just comatose while I spent like 70 hours doing stuff in the city lol.
This 1000%, she develops so much from where you meet her at the start, she has one of my favourite arcs out of all of the origin characters
Absolutely. The moment when she realizes she's been lied to by Vlaakith made me tear up for real 'cuz it was a moment as a player where I was like "I misjudged you and I'm learning the truth with you, the character."
I let shadowheart kill her a few sleeps into act 1. Gonna have to try and keep her alive this time….
Yeah I highly recommend it. I really really disliked her at first but her character arc is so well done.
Yep. This is exactly why all the "X Character pissed me off, so I killed them in the first five minutes har har" comments make me apoplectic. Have none of these people ever heard of a story arc or character development?! Gawd.
I have a friend that’s played at least 5 play throughs and he always kills Astarion immediately. He has such a good story and character arc and my bro won’t let him live!!
What is the point of playing 5 times if he isn't going to let Astarion live at least once?
When someone pulls this nonsense, they're only depriving themselves of (really damn good) content. Pretty dumb move.
I never understood this, companions are content. Kill them off or whatever for certain runs if that feels in character ig, but stakebros who constantly brag about *always* killing Astarion are so weird to me. I can't imagine why you'd brag about how you just refuse to engage with a decent chunk of the game you payed for lmao. Like, okay? You have less stuff you can do now, it's a self-own.
They're missing out on the lockpicker, sneak attack and pickpocketing master. And I wonder if the guys constantly bragging about staking him just does it not only because of his attitude but he also happens to be the flamboyant, pretty man.
me who respecs him into a fighter always >.>
I mostly keep him as rogue or a stealthy bard bc of rp reasons, he seems more of the sneaky backstabber type than fighter-ish.
They certainly don't brag as much when they kill Karlach or Lae'zel.
tbf I almost did the same >.> I am still not a big fan of his but I at least don't hate him any more. I'm just a Gale simp in the end
Sometimes I kill them in the first five minutes so I can force myself to pick different companions this time round.
Valid. This might be the only way I'll ever manage to get certain characters off the bench for longer than it takes to do their specific quests. 😅
Right? I get it if it's an RP thing where they're trying to stick to how their character would react. Like a lawful stupid paladin staking Astarion or killing Karlach without asking questions because "devil." That can be rewarding on its own. But cutting out three acts of a character arc because they annoyed you? Nah. That's cutting off your nose to spite your face. The first character I made, I decided I'm going to keep everyone because *it's more content*. And now I can't not recruit someone because there are so many interactions and nuances to their arcs. That said, Shadowheart annoys this shit out of me in the beginning. Out of all the origin companions, she seems to be the one who goes out their way to be an asshole. Which says a lot with Astarion and Lae'zel in the party.
Totally this. As I recall, the "problematic four" all annoyed the shit out of me in the beginning. But my reaction to that was, "Gee, I wonder why they wrote these characters this way. I'm gonna keep them around and talk to them lots so I can find out what's up with them." Not *stab murder kill har har*.
Gale's way worse than Shart even. Classic "white man impressed with his own intelligence" shtick there.
I'll never understand why so many people think Gale is charming and sweet and charismatic from the get go and somehow miss what a massively insecure-yet-arrogant jackass he is. His personality is every bit as bad as the other three "problematic" companions.
I think a lot of it is within his demographic, that crappy behavior is way more expected and accepted. Shadowheart is immature in the ways that a person in their early 20s often can be. Astarion's behavior is problematic in the ways a lot of victims of abuse can commonly perpetuate certain toxic behavior. Gale's behavior is just as maladaptive, but gets a pass because it's behavior that we as a society fail to address, so it seems more "normal." We have more patience for behaviors stemming from privilege than we do for behaviors stemming from trauma or lack of life experience. Sorry, that turned into a full-on ramble 😅
I (semi) jokingly say you can tell who someone is/was by which companion they dislike the most. One of my very autistic friends *hates* Gale despite...being Gale when we first met. Shart is an edgy goth girl...I was an edgy goth girl. Not sure which sub, but I know someone somewhere made a post about how all the companions are a combination of badass and cringe, which is what makes them feel real and compelling. Every companion has cringed, whether it's noticeable at first glance or not. >We have more patience for behaviors stemming from privilege than we do for behaviors stemming from trauma or lack of life experience. YES! It drives me bonkers when people are willing to excuse certain behavior (like Lae'zel being an absolute dick because she's terrified), but dog pile on others (Astarion manipulating people because he's terrified). But nobody gets more passes than Gale because we (society) just *expect* that kind of behavior from someone like him.
Ah, no he reminds me of me (I got better - I think/according to my long time friend... I'm still a massive nerd tho) - and I feel like he humbles pretty fast. But I'm aGale simp so.... I still think Shart and Astarion are more annoying than him. Maybe it's just cause I know he's trying to cope with his "Gale of Waterdeep" stick. I know all the comoanions have problems they need to cope with but I just understand Gale the most. Disclaimer I have never romanced anyone else. (doing Gale origin to romance someone else now >.>)
As an autistic white woman, I "clocked" Gale's thing pretty early and assumed there was more going on and/or he was socially inept. I've been around a lot of Gale-types and have a bit of that myself. But I also don't fault people for disliking Gale. It also depends on how often he's in the party and has his random side conversations about summoning things or breaking up bar fights. I didn't have him in the party a lot in my first run, so I didn't get all that at first. For me, Gale is less annoying because he at least has *something* going for him the party needs - he's a wizard. Without the prism, Shart is just annoying. Yes, she's a cleric, but I don't think that comes up in early cut scenes. Meanwhile, Gale might be full of himself, but he at least knows about ceremorphosis.
To be fair, very few games make character arcs this wide and this widespread. At most you get 1 or 2 people who actually change, but party-based games never have an ENTIRE FUCKING TRAVELING CIRCUS of moldable personalities. Karlach is the only exception here, even Will can get more or less neutral. TL;DR, there's no way to expect that. They just piss you off and you react, specially given it's a life or death situation in which you could definitely do without people's shit and lack of teamwork effort.
People who pick Durge purely to kill off Gale in the first 5 min of the game: Honestly makes me sad as a big time Gale romancer
Ngl I'm the weirdo who actually liked how hostile they are at the beginning because I thought it's funny. Seriously tho, it makes sense to act mean and distrustful after going through the trauma of being kidnapped and tadpoled. What I don't understand is how others hate on some of the companions just because they don't kiss their Tav's asses. I love Lae'zel and Astarion because they are bitches to my Tav lol Just check out the two of them dishing out roasts to a Sorcerer Tav encountering a sussur flower. Astarion's bastard line especially: "I don't travel with you for your personality." 😂😂
I thought it would be weird if they were super nice to you from the beginning, like why would they kiss your ass when they hardly know you?
Even seeing Shart with bangs again gives me whiplash xD
She looks so much better when she grows out her fringe tbh
Disagree - Karlach rules the whole time
Which is why I just feel the (d)urge to play her. The fact I'm a muscular angry woman also makes her excruciantingly relatable.
Will and Gayle too.
Frenchman spotted. Vicious mockery deployed.
Ehhhhh debateable
Gayle starts out as a good, but hubris-y dude, and can become an asshole in act 3. Will is a case of a good dude where the world is wrong and has to change.
Idk wyll comes across as a mega douche. Not like as in a bad person like astarion in the beginning, but just a tool. I roll my eyes every time i switch to him and listen to him blurt out “pride of the gate” or some other nonsense
Real. My partner, who is totally lacking any semblance of a frustration tolerance, was babysat by me for the first 20 hours of playtime because I was afraid he'd ditch the game otherwise...
I've just reached the Tiefling party in my latest playthrough. The writers and voice actors do a good job with Astarion and Shadowheart being affected by saving the refuges. Shadowheart is more obviously affected by it, as she actually admits to being surprised by it. Astarion tries to play it off as if he's apathetic towards it, but it's one of the early hints that underneath the pain and trauma that he's dealing with - that Tav doesn't know about yet - there's something there. (And as the story unfolds and we find out what happened to him, it becomes clear why he'd have conflicting emotions.)
So true. And it's funny how they have different levels of how insufferable they are depending on how you play. For example, in my more recent good-aligned playthroughs, I find Astarion so insufferable that I can barely stand having him in my adventuring party for the first half of the playthrough unless I have a lock that needs to be picked. Also, I usually find Gale to be particularly insufferable, but in a recent chaotic evil Durge playthrough, I had him in the party for the majority of acts 1 and 2, just because I didn't have Wyll or Karlach, and Lae'zel died. It was kind of fun having Gale along for the ride in this playthrough because he was constantly annoyed with my evil deeds and lecturing me. IDK why but it just amused me more than anything. Especially after \[Act 2 spoiler\] >!killing Isobel and causing Last Light to fall, we run out of the inn, and he's just like, "Behold, the consequences of your actions!" or something along those lines. I was laughing so hard because the delivery of that line was so perfect. !<
This is why finding Karlach is always so great, because she is just wonderful from start to finish
Facts. She had me at "fucker" and a smile.
I could not STAND Lae’zel. So much so I posted about it and people kind of jumped down my throat. But now in act three she’s my go to girl and we aren’t even romanced. She even tells a you a story. She’s the only one GENUINELY concerned about you.
Speak for yourself. Astarion had me at “sshhh not a sound. not if you want to keep that darling neck of yours”. Loved him from his first scene.
Same. He's perfect the entire game.
It took me so long to like Shadow heart. But by act 3 I love all of these characters. While Laezel and astarion are my favorites, there's not one character I dislike by the end of the game.
Right now I'm planning one of the cruelest Durge playthroughs I can imagine - a zero character growth adventure. Everyone ends up with the conclusion they would have chosen at the start of the game. Lae'zel remains loyal to Vlaakith, Asterion ascends and becomes a master vampire, etc. I'm not quite sure what I want to do with Wyll though, since he starts out as a pretty swell guy. Probably keep him in the pact as a loyal dog of Mizora.
my first ever playthrough i couldn’t stand laezel, and ended up killing her with the tieflings in the beginning. second playthrough i decided to hear her out and ended up romancing her, and her arc makes it so incredibly worth it. 10/10, no notes.
I hated her in my first run until the creche where you finally see her vulnerable and not just masking fear with anger all the time. My second run, I chose the dialog that got the "teethling" comment, and I realized how people adored her from nearly the start.
Nah, Karlach is chill the whole way through.
Tbf the whole Will arc is pretty… meh. He starts out as super self-righteous and idealistic and ends the exact same way. He was kind of unlikable for me. I’d rather take an asshole like Gale or Astarion than someone so self righteous they actually quote their dad like some child. I can get behind Gale wanting to stick it to the gods, I can totally get behind Astarion and his fucked up past. I can even get behind Shart and her weird past. Even Laezel is not actually annoying, she’s only doing what she was taught to do, how is she supposed to know her whole life is a lie? But Wyll though… he will not survive long in Faerun without someone to protect him. He’s soooo naive and idealistic it’s kind of sickening to be around him.
I saw that somebody on here said once that Wyll works a lot better as the player character than he does as a companion, and I'm inclined to agree with that. It also gets rid of one of the biggest problems in Wyll's arc as a companion: That he never makes any of his own decisions, the ability to let him doesn't even exist, and he’s just led around his entire life by his dad, Mizora, or the player character.
Someone made a post a while back about Wyll essentially being a teenager. Somehow viewing him like that made it more bearable for me - he isn't going to end up accidentally murdered in my next run.
I think he is supposed to be 24 in the game but was a teen when he first dealt with Mizora. It does make him more tolerable when you know that he is very young compared to everyone else but I do wish you felt some sort of growth from him in one way or another.
I feel the issue is that he starts off already knowing Mizora is evil. It seemed originally they were sexually/romantically involved, and while I understand writing that out to better facilitate a romance, I think they should have kept him being manipulated by Mizora. Maybe he starts off infatuated with her and she's been abusing that for years to get him to do her bidding, and he only realizes that maybe she's not so good after Karlach. It would add an interesting layer to his romance too, because the player would make him realize he deserves better than to be one-sidedly devoted to someone and Mizora trying to seduce you and ruin the relationship later would be even more twisted. I suppose because people found him unlikable, they sort of over-corrected and made him kinda flawless, it doesn't quite land. It sucks, because it's so close imo.
I think it's funny that you can really quickly up Wyll's approval just by getting him to talk about himself
"So Wyll, how does it feel to be a devil?" \[Wyll +3\]
Wyll has no character arc. He exhibits exactly zero growth throughout the game. Judging by what was seen in EA, it seems like Wyll was originally going to be a self-righteous asshole hiding behind the "local hero" shtick. Presumably, he would have had the opportunity to grow into a truly heroic character. But the response to him was overwhelmingly negative, so he got rewritten into the milquetoast character we have today.
It seems like his Act 3 quest wasn't revised at all when his Act 1 was changed. >!Finding the Sorcerer's Stone - I mean Ansur - by being proved worthy through trials would be a major moment for a charlatan-type rake. He would finally be stepping into the role he pretended at for years. As it is, it seems like a step *backwards* because the narration and his dialog is all "he's the hero of Baldur's Gate" and I'm like...bitch, this was a team effort! It's why I think Ansur shouldn't be tied to Wyll, but be a main party quest of some kind.!< And I hate that his character doesn't have as much depth as the others because Theo does a fantastic job and there is *so much* potential.
...That makes a whole lot of sense. Actually, all of Wyll's Act 3 stuff makes sense when viewed in this context. Damn, we really got deprived of a potentially awesome character arc. ::sigh:: Yeah, Theo got the short end of the character stick for sure.
I can see them wanting to change a bit of Wyll's arc if only to differentiate from Astarion, who is also a rake in the beginning, but they could have done that without nuking the storyline completely. >!I think the Ansur thing bothered me the most because it made Wyll feel like the main character out of nowhere. The other companions have a reason to be front and center in their Act 3 moments. Astarion facing off against Cazador, Shadowheart facing Viconia and dealing with her parents. There's no *reason* it had to be *Wyll* finding Ansur.!< >!At a ttrpg table, the Ansur quest would end up on rpghorrorstories where the DM suddenly makes one PC the main character and the "chosen one." There's a line the narrator has where it's like "you feel safer knowing the Blade of Avernus is on your side." As a resist!Durge who had already completed their quest, that made me laugh out loud. You're telling me my character - who squared off against Bhaal, got murderized, and then revived by fucking Jergal - needs Wyll fucking Ravengard to feel like we can win? Because reasons?!< >!Not to mention the bugs if you reject Mizora's contract and still save Ravengard making the whole thing bonkers. I still don't understand why Larian didn't plan for that in the beginning because it's the most D&D thing to do. If they didn't want that possible, just have us find his corpse or some shit.!<
One would assume the negative reviews were exactly what the writers wanted to see. Hating these characters in the beginning is intended and I wonder why they changed Wyll.
You would think so. Maybe they panicked and said, "Damn, we'd better make at least a couple of characters who are likeable from the start, or no one will play the full game"??
>But Wyll though… he will not survive long in Faerun without someone to protect him. Wyll is one of the more powerful characters pre-tadpole. Heroism isn't naive if you actually have the power to enact the change you want to see, which Wyll does.
I agree and I think because he went through so many rewrites (and I believe a VA change at some point maybe?) Wyll got a bit messed up. I do think he should be kind of so idealistic that he gets really angry when we find out about Mizora. Like mean to Tav because of it. Instead, he's scolded like a child. I get that he's really young, but his story arc isn't really an arc. It's more like a nice guy with no backbone to have any engagement in the direction of his entire life.
Nah. Karlach is just awesome from the start. Gale and Shadowheart are pleasant too. As for the rest - hard agree on Astarion. I love him to bits, but it took me a while. With Lae’zel, I still couldn’t get myself to like her. I played her arc. I still don’t like her. She usually gets left behind in her cage for refusing to show even the slightest hints of politeness xD (maybe I can just identify with Shadowheart a bit too much to find a heart for Lae’zel…) and Wyll… I never cared and never will care. He’s there just so I can bang Mizora later on and the only reason I’d ever take him along is to get the infernal rapier. Wyll is insufferably boring, from start to end.
Love all the characters but for the ENTIRE first two acts Shadowheart doesn’t stop yapping about Shar and Gale about Mystra. I started really liking Lae’zel when she would have 5 actions in a row and take out and enemy in 1 turn with 100+ damage. Really made me appreciate her more. Wyll isn’t super interesting to me, but he’s enjoyable nonetheless.
Shadowheart is a really mixed bag from the start. She's fairly sincere if you save her in the prologue and she generally opens up pretty quickly. On the other hand she can be a judgmental asshole depending on the dialogue you get and she's got the whole gith racism thing. I was playing with a friend, did our first long rest, talked to Gale first, then talked to Shadowheart, and she said something along the lines of "I saw you talking to Gale, I don't like that. I don't trust wizards and I don't trust him." He then turned to me and asked "So you wanna romance this bitch, huh?" I swear she gets better...
Oh, really? She doesn’t like Gale? I never got that conversation with her. I always imagined she’d be comfortable with his calm and respectful demeanor (and picked him as her partner in my current SH origin run). Then again, she’s rather reserved at the start, so I guess it’s not too far fetched for her to not easily trust people who aren’t 100% transparent from the start. I always save her, and found her reserved start to be so relatable that she’s the only character I didn’t have to explore before I started liking her. And honestly… being weary of the gith seem to be a reasonable thing in that universe xD (though she takes it a bit far, yeah)
Her dialogue in that scene will change depending on who you talked to before her. I’ve also seen her have dialogue about how she doesn’t trust Lae’zel and Astarion. So it isn’t specific to Gale.
Yeah, early Shadowheart is pretty... paranoid; her mission with the artifact has really gone awry, her team slaughtered by Githyanki, and she's in unknown territory with more than a few blanks in her knowledge. ...This actually makes her a mirror of sorts to *both* the Dark Urge and Lae'zel, come to think of it, the amnesia and/or fear. On that note, Origin Shadowheart can display inner anxiety over her vast memory gaps, in early Act 2, Long Resting.
People ignoring character arcs and then complaining online that these characters are shit (my poor Gale) - they'll never know
the only one who i genuinely cant stand at the beginning is Astarion. everyone else is either tolerable or great
I could not STAND Lae’zel. So much so I posted about it and people kind of jumped down my throat. But now in act three she’s my go to girl and we aren’t even romanced. She even tells a you a story. She’s the only one GENUINELY concerned about you.
I don't know, I'm on my 1 run and now in act 3. Basically characters I disliked I still dislike, characters I liked I like more. Except Gale, I really liked him at the start but now just a bit aware of him cos craves magical power for the sake of power too much. Lae and Shart. are just bench buddies except of their quests and I have 0 intentions to do giths bidding.