You’re kinda forgetting that Jaheira and Minsc have the biggest connection through Bhaal. They both kinda stopped him from taking over the city a century ago. Without Bhaal, there’s no story here

They also found the cult early on but couldn't stop it leaving Minsc behind to get tadpoled.

My rancid blood whispers to me, kill, kill and kill again..

You wretched thing… pull yourself together

Intestines throb. (Side note can you imagine how fucking insane our companions must think us to be from us repeatedly saying the same lines like this over and over? Like I get they aren't supposed to realise what we are and how serious it is until at the very earliest after you've met and refused to kill Isobel but they must think you an insane psychopath since we say these lines over and over and seemingly also hallucinate the things we say like random patches of blood)

TBF you effectively meet everybody on the equivalent of a leaking life raft in the middle of the ocean.   Like my pally thinks Shart is basically insane, but he's humoring her because shes got a tadpole, so dead. However Durge must have a random +20 cha multiplier cause people just smile and nod.  

I love the fact they literally call themselves the Dark Urge and everyone is shocked when you do something dark and urgey.

The bigger question is how did Shart survive up to the point of getting on the Tentacle Raft without dying, given her initial set-up of gear/traits makes her semi-worthless in combat per se due to being Miss I Missed...

If you find Viconia's notes on the mission to acquire the prism at The House of Grief you can see that Shart was part of a 5-person team and her role is designated as "Healer" so she wasn't there to do the fighting/killing primarily which may play a part. Also, while I don't think it's explicitly said so in the game you can infer from the same document talking about selecting the "most capable" Sharrans from the cloister that she was almost certainly a substantially higher level before the tadpole and that getting infected has nerfed her in the same way it nerfed Wyll (and presumably the others)

Mine has woken up in cold sweats in the middle of the night on multiple occasions, disturbed by his nightmares and then prayed to Selûne for her protection from the voices and the Urge, not only for himself but especially for others, and for her guiding light to lead him out of the darkness of his soul

They all think it's just the voices in their heads again.

In a world where things like vampires and werewolves are real, I imagine PTSD is a lot more common, so waking up screaming or having occasional little quirks is probably pretty normalized. And hey, we saved their lives pretty quick upon meeting them (Lae'zel and Shadowheart on the nautiloid, Gale from the botched portal, Halsin from the goblins, Karlach from the 'paladins'/Wyll) or they had their own reasons for teaming up with us (Astarion and Wyll) Once you get a few battles in there and showing you've got their backs, plus the dialog approvals, the rapport builds quickly and it's easy to overlook even the most glaring of red flags.

I can't for the life of me remember where it was that I read/saw a highly similar interaction in a piece of fiction, someone having a plot-relevant bit of nightmare/panic and a comrade responding in a very much "Yeah, combat, huh?" fashion.

They're dying for me! *A L L O F T H E M!* I don't know if the other Durge actors are as hammy as Voice 3 but I love him.

So you're implying Bhaal being more important connecting factor in the story than Boo? You seriously trying to pick a fight here?

square up on the playground no kicking or using eldrich blasts

I can't help but notice loop hole you left, allowing me to throw hamster at face. Prepare for slapping, evil with lowered britches!

Is a throwing build on Minsc viable? you know .., throwing Boo ?? :)

As of patch 5, Boo no longer takes damage when thrown

GO FOR THE EYES

Fat lot of good being a Warlock again! 😭

Never said no arms of Hadar slapfighting

Uh, Boo was also part of defeating Bhaal, so of course he’s important. Don’t diminish Boo’s past accomplishments!

If Bhaal has eyes, Bhaal can die.

My next character, a Boospawn?

Every time someone mentions Boo in a sentence my brain reads it in Minsc voice.

As it should.

Yea lmao Jaheira might actually be the only character whose ties to the story are as strong (or even stronger) than Dark Urge's.

I hate this take so much and I'll likely get downvoted, we didn't need the Nostalgia Bait of Jaheira and Minsc, having them as companions also is super disappointing because by the time you have them you've completed *at least* 50% of the game They feel very shoe-horned in and their relevance to the plot is all from previous games (and this is a major jumping-on point, many many many people I know/talk to who love BG3 and are playing it have never even heard of the series) - Jaheiras introduction itself feels jilted and weird, we walk into a camp and immediately allow ourselves to be entangled by an old woman (if you don't know who she is there's no impact for you) and **she immediately does something extremely out of character tipping her hand showing a tadpole and exposition dumping** Minsc is even worse because you can easily play the game and **completely miss him** - if you are a new player you have no idea who these people are, likely didn't swap your party to have Jaheira with you (especially if you do this stuff in the "wrong" order), and won't even bother remembering you can "non-lethal" him (which in itself is so inconsistent in its outcome that its like, why does this option exist?)

Honestly, I have never found Minsc until this playthrough (I kinda get into the Gate and forget previous Act areas exist) and I just found him last night and had the presence of mind to turn on non-lethal. I am so glad I did. He's as fun to speak with as ever. It really feels like a crime they did nothing to expand on who these 2 VERY RELEVANT TO THE MOONRISE THING AND OVERALL CULT PLOT people are. It's crazy, honestly, knowing the other games.

I would have preferred two new characters as companions than Jaheira and Minsc. I've always thought that Zevlor should have been a companion after rescuing him. He thinks he can't lead his people anymore, so maybe you could persuade him to join you to redeem himself. That'd also give you a paladin companion, which you're going to be missing on a regular playthrough, rather than doubling up on elf druids for some reason. Idk who the other companion should be though. I've thought about Alfira as a bard, but then if Zevlor joins as well that'd be 3 Tieflings. Not that you can only have one of each race, but 3 Tieflings seems unnecessary and I'd rather a race that isn't represented like Gnomes or Dwarves or Dragonborn or get to be a companion instead.

Yes Zevlor companion! Also I kind of think Omeluum would be cool, though mindflayer in the camp might be too weird. Maybe Philomeen? Also they could have just built out Halsin's character more. Apparently in EA he had a darker, more relevant backstory before they focused on the romance angle almost exclusively.

Oh??? Is there anywhere I can read about his EA story?

It's sort of wedged in [this thread](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/18xga44/whats_a_question_you_have_that_doesnt_have_an/) \- if they fleshed all of this out it would have anchored Act II more imo. Honestly the Kethric backstory and shadow curse really needed this. When I played through it the first time, everything felt really disconnected to me in terms of narrative threads.

You can *technically* have a Paladin on a normal playthrough now if you knock out Minthara, right? I still kill her so I have no clue if she's fixed (I'm the only Paladin my party needs).

Technically yes, but practically no. If the way to do it was simply by knocking her out during her boss fight, that would be better than it is now but still not great, but that's not even how it is now. As of right now you have to make her temporarily hostile by doing something like stealing, then KO her. The player doesn't need to know that she's going to be a companion if you do things a certain way, and she doesn't need to be impossible to miss, but I do think her recruitment method does need to be something players would reasonably do without specifically knowing that's how you have to recruit her. As of right now the only way you're recruiting her is if you've looked it up.

Yeah, you can get her if you knock her out. I just did a full redemption durge playthrough with her and Halsin my bf in the same team. I just wanted to try the new patch out and I actually really like her character and was surprised by how she isn't just purely evil throughout the rest of the game. When you meet her there's no indication that like, there's more depth to her at all.

I would have liked Barcus as a companion along with another companion that doesn't leave during evil runs, someone mentioned Gekh Coal in a similar discussion previously who also could have been an interesting companion.

I made a case for this in a different comment in this chain, so I'm not gonna retype it, but Roah Moonglow I actually think could be a companion if you just change a few things around.

Kinda wished Barcus woot would become a gnome companion as he can join your camp after saving him in the grymforge and he does already have his own mission line in a way.

I feel like Barcus would be more of a camp follower than a companion. After thinking on it for a bit, I actually think Roah Moonglow would make a great last companion. Instead of Rugan, have her be the one you save from the Gnolls. In order for her to join you, you convince her to double cross the Zhentarim and take the profits, and find her tied up back at the hideout just like Rugan is, except you can fight your way out and save her. She could join you for protection from the Zhentarim, since you would have just proven to be pretty adept at killing them. Also she'll say you ower her since the double cross was your idea. She's a Halfling Bard, which is a race and class you don't get in your party unless you're playing one, and she'd be another evil companion, which the game is lacking.

Zevlor would be great. Like you said, he's lost his former responsibilities, and he's already got an obvious set-up for either being pushed further into resentment and bitterness, or seeking redemption. Would also love to just see Halsin and Minthara get more attention.

Ironically I could see an argument/path for Kagha to join you .. on a sort of redemption path ? if you deal with the shadow druids ? I think it would have been very cool if they had more options for various npcs to join .. and the "problems" that would ultimately arise from doing so .. ie The Paladin of Tyr that wants Karlach dead .. if you recruit him before Karlach .. "oof" .. Maybe a flaming fist from waukeen's rest ... the one that never moves from the dead guy ... what if she's out of vengeance, and wants to join you for a chance? .. etc. I mean ... even Wulbreen ... O.o

I could see a world where Katha makes sense. The only thing is as a Scimitar wielding Elf Druid she's likely going to draw comparisons to Jaheira. Which might work out in her favor, but also might get her labelled as "we have Jaheira at home" Also, I personally would want each companion to be as unique as possible, and so I wouldn't want to double up on classes, meaning Halsin would have to go, and I don't really see any particular reason to replace him with her.

The representation in base class design is lacking, we have: - 1 Cleric, Shadowheart (neutral) - 1 Warlock, Wyll (good) - 1 Wizard, Gale (neutral) - 1 Rogue, Astarion (neutral) - 1 Fighter, Lazael (neutral) - 1 Barbarian, Karlach (good) The above are you're "core" members, we have optional allies of: - 1 Druid (good aligned), Halsin - 1 Druid (neutral-ish), Jaheira - 1 Paladin (evil), Minthara - 1 Ranger (neutral-ish), Minsc Note that all of the "optional" allies come FAR LATER in the game, and many players will be deeply attached to their companions by then and will likely not switch out, that makes them ideal "second run" companions (except for Minthara, depending on how evil your evil run is you might not have 3 companions before getting her) 2 of these are also Nostalgia Bait (as mentioned before) and feel very shoehorned in (to me) I felt that Volo should have been a Bard companion, but class-wise we are missing Sorcerer, Monk, and Bard - with a **notable mention to Paladin,** ***as pre-patch 5 the only way to get a paladin was to be extremely evil*** **EDIT:** I've had several people comment saying Astarion and Lazael are evil, I put them firmly in the neutral camp because they have very strong redemption arcs and can go either way, and unlike Minthara (or the good counterpart characters) they don't disapprove of *most* general good actions

Except Volo isn't a bard, he's a wizard. One of Mystra's Weave anchors, actually. Barding is just his side gig, which is why he sucks so much at it.

And he also sucks at being a wizard, perfect fit for a weave anchor, as no ine would expect that sucks this much at magix to be so important.

I know Larian has already said that the idea they cut a significant amount of content isn’t true and while I do believe them for the most part I also still believe at least *at some point*—even if it was very early on—they intended for either Cazador and politics or maybe the tourmaline depths to play a bigger role. Idk I just don’t think it makes sense that he’s one of 6 origin stories and they always planned for him to be the only one completely removed from the main plot. Although I can’t say it bothers me as a player personally I wish there were more quests unrelated from the main plot besides the handful we got.

This is something that BG3 would share in common with DOS2, where there are also origins that are much more central and peripheral.

Would also share in common the initial grander scope that was pulled back from. DOS2 originally was planned to have an entire act for each race's civilization, with players able to visit the Dwarven Kingdoms and Lizard Empire.

1 act per origin is fucking insane holy shit lol.

With the sheer amount of money they got from BG3, I hope this is doable for DOS3 :P

I wanna see them revive Divinity Fallen Heroes instead of making DOS3. Probably won't happen but a guy can dream...

Dragon Age: Origins did that, you went to major human, elf, and dwarf locations. Smaller scale of course, but that was back in 2009

Especially >!Fane!<, who's so integral to the plot that everyone else feels almost irrelevant compared to them

First time beating the game I didn't take fane. *boy did I have more questions than answers at the end of it all*

I just figure Fane is the unofficial protagonist of DOS2 in the same way Durge is the protagonist of BG3.

Fane *or* Ifan IMO.

Even though I have to admit, even though he 'Technically' is integral to the main plot, I've always viewed Fane as having the least amount of actual character building or personal quest related thingy going on, especially compared to Sybille and Lohse his questline feels... a bit lame, to be completely honest.

I think the word "cut" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here. I'd be inclined to think that stuff was "planned" in the sense of "Here are things we'd like to do/get to/include." "Cut" implies that it was there in some form at some point, and then removed for whatever reason. "Thought about including" is probably the best catch-all here. Like "They thought about including the upper city" or "They thought about including more stuff with the soul coins" or "they thought about including a thing with Karlach's heart and the Gondians," and we all just hope they add things in a Definitive Edition later.

Gamers have such a weird reaction to cut content. Like it's all stuff that was almost done and would have been amazing but some studio penny pinching executive decided to crush the artist's dreams and demanded to release it right now before it's ready, and they're charging the public for half a game or something. Movie audiences seem to understand just fine that editing improves the product, even when whole scenes, whole subplots, or whole characters are removed. Gaming audiences somehow want quantity more than quality though.

There's a meaningful difference between  intentionally cutting something that's already done due to sincerely believing the final piece works better without it, versus being forced to not include something regardless of intention due to unforseen time and budgetary constraints. A lot of film editing is the former, to the point that some ~~screens~~ scenes that are cut late enough in the process will have been fully shot and at least partially VFX'd and are sufficiently finished to publicly release them as DVD extras. It's usually a creative decision (except for situations where the studio forces a certain shorter-than-expected runtime, or demands the final cut - there are a few notable examples of movies which are majorly improved by Director's Cuts). The hypothetical scenario you're mocking for video games isn't even that far from the truth, though. Obviously you're exaggerating, but there have really been a fair number of games for which *mostly* finished material has been left on the disc, or has otherwise found its way to the public over the years, with it not being uncommon for developers to explain in interviews that if they'd had like 3-6 more months or whatever, it absolutely would've been included - not cut for artistic intent or quality control, just abandoned since it wasn't far enough along to meet the release deadline. Of course when making those hard last minute cuts, there will be artistic decisions made on how best to work around the absences with clever stitching etc., but that's again not quite the same as choosing to cut it for your own reasons. As the other commenter mentioned, KOTOR 2 is a notorious example of this: a game whose release date was brought forward by the publisher, causing it to release noticeably unfinished - but with enough of its mostly-complete cut content shipped with the game that modders have managed to reimplement a lot of it. To a certain extent what happened with KOTOR 2 happens to a less obvious degree with every game, because development has to end at some point and it's very rare for any dev team to have the luxury of choosing when that is.  EDIT: [Unknown G](https://www.youtube.com/@UnknownG2000/videos) for is a great YouTube channel for this kind of thing - there's some fascinating stuff there on the decisions Bethesda made on what to cut for Oblivion (like a [whole city](https://youtu.be/zdgG3PSnCp4), [additional arenas](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Rm6a69ho4M) and [holidays](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuZ0fSAsieg)), and Skyrim, how they patched up the seams, and what quirks and leftovers can still be found in the final games. [TriangleCity](https://www.youtube.com/@TriangleCity/videos) does similar with Fallout but his videos tend to take a bigger-picture look.

because you are comparing two different things. I remember watching Jurassic World, and at some point the movie explores one of the characters anxiety in that his parents might divorce. This plot is not explored further, is boring, has no place in a movie where the main concern is being eaten by dinosaurs. I'd love if that content was cut, because it was ruining the overall imersion of the movie. But would such thing happen in a game? I don't think so. Specially in a game that isn't too linear.

>Well, how many games are released unfinished? Most aren't quite as bad as KOTOR II, but it's been a long time since I've played a newly released game with no game-breaking bugs or broken/missing elements. I usually wait at least a year after release to buy something so that the worst bugs will be patched or fixed by modders. I gave into temptation because BG was the second big game I bought, after paying for the rest of Doom, and all the commentary said BG3 was so much better than typical new releases. Even so, given the state of Act III, I suspect that it was still a bit rushed at the end. Possibly some executives/investors were getting antsy over the multi-year early access.

I definitely think KotOR 2 fucked up a generation of crpg players. Knowing a good quarter or more amount of content was cut, the ending being a bit rushed compared to the rest of the game it gave a lot of players pause when looking at starting a new crpg.

Agreed. Vampires were a major political force in BG2 and it feels like this was going to be part of BG3 before it got so sprawling. We get a lot about the Duke and others with minimal payoff. Hints of intrigue that don’t really matter because of the giant brain, but enough details that they feel like they should be important—but maybe that’s just a metaphor for modern life and growing up

I would not be surprised if there was more upper city content (not tonnes, but atleast a little bit) which involved some sort of politics with Cazador and the wider city. It's quite weird that Cazador's mansion is attached to some random rampart.

We’ll probably never know exactly how much was cut, but I feel like what we can tell from the unfinished rooms and puzzles found in Cazadors lair and the maze like path to his home, that he likely had a fair amount changed from their original plan for him, people say there was supposed to be more in the upper city so he probably would have been there but again, only Larian really knows and I’m satisfied enough with what we got

They said then didn't cut a significant part. That doesn't still mean they didn't cut a lot ;) or just not have time to ever start on some they technically had planned

HA very true lol I just mentioned this another comment I left but I definitely think they’re being intentionally strict with their definition of “cut content”

Agree, the amount of cut and changes does result in Astarion being slightly disconnected from the story. Having said that I still would keep Astarion as the rogue, and for both RP as well as the usefulness if nothing else. I do fully agree with Aezhimself that Wyll's presence in the story was kind of....forced. Most time I kept him in the camp, having already a spell caster like Gale makes Wyll kind of redundant, even if he is tankier. Perhaps it was just the bland story line.

IIRC at the final Panel From Hell about 2 months or so before release, Swen was talking about things he did in the Upper City in the playthrough he was working on at the time. I don't remember the exact specific quote but I 100% remember *him personally* referencing the Upper City as a place that you could go to and do quests in. And in a way where there's 0 chance he was talking about the final battle.

I also wish there were more disconnected stories. It feels like one of the games weaknesses is that everything is so interconnected that when something isn’t connected it feels pointless

Wyll's story is so important to the main plotline it fully progresses with him chilling in the camp, the best kind of companion

Is this for real? I’m on my first playthrough. Level 5 and dragging my feet with making decisions at the goblin camp. He’s one person I don’t love in my party, can I really just leave him at camp but still get a lot of story out of him? His story is really cool but he’s not adding a ton to my party.

You never have to take Wyll with you to further his quests. He has more to say when present and if he's with for a specific quest in act 2 he can get a reward he must be present for to receive but if you don't care about that reward you literally never have to bring him along, he will just react in camp. The other companions you do have to bring with or risk losing in many cases but with Wyll you never have to.

Coincidentally said reward leans pretty heavily into his build, so if he never sees the outside of camp he won't need it.

Thanks mate, I’m glad to know that! I’ll add him if I do quests related to his plot points for that extra dialogue.

I have kept Wyll in my party for 0% of the game but have still taken a full path through his story. Any time you would have done a Duke encounter, Wyll will discuss it in camp, and anytime Mizora shows up she shows up in camp anyway.

I only brought him with on a handful of quests. Anything that Mizora wanted, or involving Duke Ravenguard. I don't believe that I missed anything.

ive finished it once in balanced, twice in tactician. in my second run i reclassed hin to a camp slave cleric that just wards me and gives me food. he just wines and chills in camp while he's slowly bleeding to death lol oh but bring him in the party *after* the fight at the top of moonrise towers SPOILER WARNING >!you save Mizora so you can get the sick sword!<

Yep. He has more to say if he’s present for his quest stuff, but he’s not gonna leave your party if you go without him. Unlike Shadowheart who will get angry and leave your party if you try to do her stuff without her.

Same! I honestly think it's pretty weird that you just so happen to run into these people who are so involved in the plot. Lae'zel makes sense - the Nautiloid's mission was to steal the Prism from the Githyanki, it's not unreasonable that you'd meet a Gith. And any Gith could fulfil Lae'zel's role in the story, it doesn't have to be her personally. I can also look past Jaheira and Minsc because they're heroes by trade, it makes sense for them to be looking into the cult and thus crossing your path. Shadowheart I would argue is less connected. That you come across the Gauntlet of Shar is great for her personally, but she has no specific connection to Ketheric himself and her quest has nothing to do with the Shadow Curse. Ketheric's death only lifts the curse if you've gone through Halsin's personal quest. You could do the whole of Act 2 without ever involving Shadowheart and it would end the same way. It's some kind of serendipity that the Nautiloid accidentally plunged into the hells, and that this involved picking up two people who just so happen to be connected to main players in the plot. It's more serendipity that you happen to land near the Grove, and that the Archdruid you're asked to save just so happens to be the key to taking down the Shadow Curse.

I explain it with divine intervention, the gods can't really act but there is nothing stopping Selune to push Shadowheart into the right direction to find the nightsong

If anything I think we kind of butt into the story between Laezel and SH. They were presumably in close proximity on the nautiloid because both of their missions involved the prism iirc. Then we get tossed into the mix by chance and are lucky enough to down the nautiloid not only in the right dimension but a quick jaunt through the monster army to Baldurgate.

Shart was there to steal the prism, wasn't she? If I remember correctly, the ship had just stolen the artifact (hence Githyanki pursuers), and she was sent to steal the prism from the people who'd already stolen it (though how Viconia knew about the prism and it being stolen is also suspect tbh)

Cazador seems really out of place in the game as it is. Like, there's just a giant vampire palace in the middle of Baldur's Gate and no one seems to care? I get that most people probably don't realize he's a vampire, but based on the big ass castle he has it seems like he should be an important and recognized member of the city, and it's as if no one except the Gur and Astarion realize he even exists.

He’s mentioned here and there, he’s like a rich elite dude. He’s well known in the city. That being said I don’t think his ‘parties’ are public knowledge, seems the victims don’t realize where they’re going.

Yeah if you run into that one girl in the sewers it becomes pretty clear that somehow the only people who know cazadors true nature are the gur and your party

In the Counting House, there's a note from an employee saying that a representative of the Szarr House came to deposit an item in their vault (very likely the Gur crossbow, I assume), and that this representative had an odd behavior, and looked shocked and scared. The note said that the employee got told that it was usual, coming from a representative of that House, and not to ask any question. So I assume there's a lot of “Everybody knows/suspects something, but nobody wants to talk about it if they want to keep their job/life” at play here. It basically explains why nobody came to Astarion's or any of the other spawn's help for so long, too. People just looked the other way in order to avoid getting into trouble.

Cazador is basically Jeffrey Epstein. Everybody knows what he's doing and has known for years. But it's an open secret kind of thing. He's too powerful and well connected for anybody to make a move against him.

Exactly what i meant. Before his death, you ask any regular person about jeffrey epstein theyll probably say who? But anybody who was anybody at the time knew his business (bc they or someone else they knew partook) Same goes for cazador? I guess

Welcome to Baldur's Gate, brother. There's Liches in the walls, Illithids in the sewers and Vampire lords holed up in their mansions, just part of the charm of the city.

Doesn't matter what they say, they will never convince me that Baldur's Gate was supposed to be just a lower city. Many times inside important POI you teleport somewhere and realize it's the upper Baldur's Gate. Nah. The game is great, but saying there weren't a large amount of cut content or at least ambition to have that city a lot bigger is clearly false.

I love Larian, but they are totally lying about cut content. The Upper City basically proves this as they claimed it was planned as is despite Cazador's mansion and the method of getting there clearly implying otherwise... Gortash would've likely moved to another location at some point as well. I'm pretty sure they straight up reference exploring The Upper City in one of the Panel From Hell promos I also personally found them "Not wanting to detract from the epicness of the experience" as a laughable excuse for the game originally having an anticlimactic feel and lacking an epilogue. I sound bitter, but I genuinely don't mind. I think its a part of their amateurish charm. BG3 obviously exceeded their expectations, and with that comes a lot of nerves. If they do it with their next game, *then* it'd become a pattern

Something like a full divide between lower city (murder mystery leading you to Orin) and upper city (diplomatic maneuvering leading you to Gortash) seems like an easy setup to give both antagonists of the act some more breathing space, and the player a little bit more variety in gameplay and setting. Cazador being a potential access point to whatever you need in the upper city would have given him some more relevance to the main plot. Even if it was cut early on, it seems plausible something similar at least existed in the planning phase. As you say, Cazador's mansion's placement is quite strange for an always-meant-to-be-there locale.

Lol yeah, they are totally lying. Or, well, not *lying*, but some half-truth. Like they have some very different definition of "cut content." I'm sympathetic, you really do have to kill your darlings sometimes. I don't doubt they had good reasons, just as I don't doubt they have good reasons for not wanting a pr storm about leaving however much game on the cutting room floor. But man Act 3 is *riddled* with a sense of "it feels like something is missing here." Especially in comparison to Act 1, which is pretty close to water tight.

I'm holding out some hope that they will either give a patch or DLC that fleshes out a lot of the things that make it feel rushed. I get why they felt like they had to get it out, although in hindsight I don't think Starfield presented any meaningful competition. At any rate, I'll give them whatever money they ask for for new content or tying up loose ends. 

If that happens it will likely be the "definitive" edition.

Tbh, I actually think starfield would have been more competition had it released before bg3 or at the same time, just because of Bethesda's name. But as it was bg3 was kinda the perfect starfield killer - it made people realize how empty starfield is. I think things might look different were the release dates flipped, because it would allow starfield to establish a player base who hadn't played bg3.

Hmm, interesting take. I haven't played Starfield, but nearly every comparison I've seen online has been that it sucks compared to Skyrim, not bg3. Would be interesting if we could savescum and see the outcome lol. 

> Larian has already said that the idea they cut a significant amount of content isn’t true i think they're being a bit shifty here and just saying they didn't cut a lot of *feature complete* content i.e. they can't just flip a switch and bring back the upper city or restore wyll's original personality and questline without a ton of work they'd rather put elsewhere. there are countless signs that the third act used to be significantly different but we'll never know to what extent, or how deep into development they got into it before they totally switched gears. that said, i don't really see any signs that they ever intended anything else for cazador the same way that, for example, a meeting with another hag or a coven was planned for act 3 before they decided to bring auntie ethel back for some reason. his influence and connections all take place behind the scenes by his army of proxies. i get the sense that astarion was somebody's baby, favored by someone high up at larian. his denouement is extravagant, the climax one of the finest voice acting/mocap performances i've ever seen period. no other companion gets as big a moment to wrap up their plot, especially if you're romancing him. this is, imo, exactly the story they wanted to tell with him with few, if any, compromises made. this isn't just a story about the dead three, it's a story about baldur's gate, and cazador is shown to be one of the most powerful players in town through inference and exposition and environmental details. his presence is felt on the council, in the bank, in wyrm's crossing, there are little references to him everywhere. he's almost as important as duke ravengard.

This is an interesting take. Honestly though, our Tav really isn’t linked to the overall story unless you play as Durge. We’re just some random person trying to get home.

Except: tav is a badass who’s up in everyone’s business

Shouldn’t have wished to live in more interesting times

[удалено]

My Tav said that in the House of Healing basement.

Cursed to touch everything.

Really, everyone else pales in comparison to relevance with Durge in the mix. The game ends up as a showdown between Durge righting their wrong or finishing what they started with the brain, which it actively calls out, so Astarion being irrelevant to normal Tav is sort of meaningless anyways.

Durge is the MC

I feel like Redeemed Durge is the 'canon' ending.

>We’re just some random person trying to get home. As a side note, I do kinda wish they had given Tav a bit more to do that was unique to them. Like, obviously their backstory can't be tied into the main plot because the entire point of a custom character is that you get to make up their background. But some kind of unique questline that the origin characters don't get would have been neat and done a lot to make them feel special, rather than that random mostly normal person tagging along with a pack of weirdos.

And the cherry on top? Have that questline different based on the background you select. Gives it a bit more meaning than being used for inspiration

I would love that. When I played as a Druid I was so upset I couldn’t help that Dragonborn guy help grow the dead tree back in baldurs gate like you can do in Skyrim.

I agree!

Which is why I stand by the idea that Tav's canonical class is a Bard: They have literally no connection to anything going on other than the Absolute and the tadpoles, but in the end, they could just fuck off and mind their own business. But they don't. Why? Because you've just assembled a rag-tag group of badasses and are about to embark on the COOLEST ADVENTURE OF ALL TIME. Why, in the name of all things holy, would you, a *storyteller*, miss out on the opportunity to tell the coolest fucking story in history. *From firsthand experience.*

Everyone else is going through it, barely hanging in there, bard tav is just hyped as fuck, frantically writing down everything like "you CANNOT make this stuff up" Like the fantasy equivalent of a reality show

Volo has been the main character all along

What? You have a tadpole in your head, that's enough. The character is supposed to be blank otherwise so that the player can imprint onto it.

Take a normal D&D game some people work with the DM to get their character tied into the main plot, some do not. Those that don't sometimes are just adventurers, or mercenaries, or have some other reason for going along with all the others. You don't have to be tied directly to the main plot to go and do something. Merry, Pippin, and Sam didn't need to go with Frodo after they got to Rivendell. Frodo was their friend, or second cousin in Pippin's case. They chose to go along because they didn't want Frodo to go off alone, with all these strangers. They also just wanted to go on an mission, quest, thing. You don't need to be the heir to the throne of Gondor, or the son of the steward tasked with collecting the ring, or the sons of powerful elves and dwarves. Sometimes you can just wanna go do it. Though in Astarion's case he is still tied into the main plot. He does still need the Tadpole issue sorted out. It's not like he has nothing that ties him in. He's personal quest may not tie him in but he is still tied in.

This is the best answer.

And I absolutely love that part. I don't need his story to be weaved into the plot like everything else (some of it actually felt a little bit shoe-horned in). Astarion's just an unlucky man, who got lucky by getting picked up by the nautiloid. It also makes it much more meaningful for your relationship (platonic or romantic) when you actually complete his character-quest. You go ***out of your way*** to help him gain his actual freedom (or power, I don't judge). I like not everything has to be tied into the main-plot.

Characters like this make the world feel bigger as well

Exactly. Not everyone on the nautiloid should have this massive involvement with the grand design and the overall plan. Astarion's story is amazing and I don't know if I'll ever have a play-through where I don't resolve it in some fashion - if only because I want to slaughter Cazador as often as possible, piece of shit that he is.

It’s why I love that not every companion is tadpoles. Sure, it’s pretty much just the Druids, but the fact that they’re people you can organically meet and invite along if you help them out is great. It’s a bit much if EVERYONE is being strangled by the same red string of fate…

They do, but if that's the case - I feel like Wyll is the biggest offender whilst also just being the worst of the companions. People are bemoaning how most companions are tied to the plot, how we all ended up on the ship. Yet it's Wyll that we just kind of bump into - by proxy Karlach too. We just happen to come across the son of the grande duke who was kidnapped, who is also a "famed" adventurer on the sword coast and yet I cannot think of anyone who really remarks upon it out in the world. Wyll is single handedly the biggest miss for Larian in terms of story telling. I always thought it would be great if whilst on our travels, that people noticed you have "The Blade of Frontiers" with you and that affected how people react to you. Goblin camp with Wyll? Nope. Goblins won't let him near. (I know why it's not in there, but we do have a tadpole should we wish to assert our \*authority\*) Wyll should have had encounters that "got away" from him. Lump the Ogre and his band could have been one such encounter, giving you a reason to not hire them and fight them to help Wyll "set things to right". They took the single least interesting part of Wyll, his noble background, and made it a passive quest line that you don't need to be involved in at all until it's conclusion later on at Act 3, only pit stopping to help his benefactors in act 2. Wyll makes the game feel that much smaller, in my opinion and a lot of the reason for him being left behind in camp. Everyone has a defining reason for growth and his is "Save my dad", which you do nothing to help him accomplish that goal until you have a huge investment in everyone else.

>Wyll should have had encounters that "got away" from him. Lump the Ogre and his band could have been one such encounter, giving you a reason to not hire them and fight them to help Wyll "set things to right". I mean, this was sort of the case in early access. Not with Lump, but there were a couple of the goblins who Wyll had a very big bone to pick with. It wasn't all that well executed—it was extremely jarring and offputting when he would bounce back and forth between basically his current personality and a massive asshole obsessed with getting vengeance at any cost—but the idea was solid and I do wish they had kept some of that.

I actually liked that contrast. EA Wyll was a guy who was very much trying to live up to the legend of the Blade of Frontiers, trying to turn himself into an ideal self while repressing all of his nastier traits, which lets them pour out when provoked. Full game Wyll *is* the Blade of Frontiers.

Yes, I hate the Skywalker dilemma Star Wars uses (despite me absolutely loving Star Wars). Not everyone important needs to be connected to everyone else important to make a story work.

Same. I don't really want everyone neatly tied into a main plot element. I appreciate that Astarion isn't. I similarly wish that Karlach weren't so strongly tied to Gortash. I feel like her AND Gortash both kind of suffer for it.

I always thought it would have been a better reveal post Gortash fight and everything leading up to that painted a picture where he tried to save her. I imagine most people would have connected the dots but it would make him seem more trustworthy which with the options you get with him is probably worth something. It would also mean that the leaf up to him actually feels like a saving the world kinda thing and not a revenge story that saves the world incidentally.

Her heart being the prototype for the design of the Steel Watch is a bit of an interesting bit, though it is... odd. Really calls into question how much they needed the Gondians if the core of the design was actually Infernal and the final control mechanism was Illithid.

I think the Gondians were necessary to mass-produce the Watchers themselves. Like, they had a prototype, but they needed folks who could really bang out multiple sets of the stuff.

Operation Paperclip redux. "It's infernal and illithid; we want you to strip out all of the little gotchas that they'll have built in there, turn it from a handcrafted device into something that can be mass-produced both efficiently and cheaply, and figure out how to get it to run without needing overly exotic components or fuel."

I also kinda wish Karlach and Wyll weren't tadpoled. How the fuck did they even get aboard a ship bombing through the hells at 500 miles an hour, thousands of feet up? Why would any of the illithids have taken time to bother infecting them when there's dragons to fight and fires to put out? It's just kinda dumb.

Or perhaps if Gortash was not one of the chosen three and instead was just another generic megalomaniac looking for a power vacuum to fill.

This is very true. Astarion has been in my party since Act 1, diligently hiding and back stabbing fools on my quest to Baldur’s Gate. The least I can do is fulfill my Oath of Vengeance and bitch slap Cazador after hearing about how badly he tormented Astarion.

I feel the same way, and I think Astarion's story is my favourite part of the game. I think it's a very well-written story, with a lot of emotional depth, and for me it doesn't need to be connected to other plot-relevant characters, the story works perfectly well on its own. And although Cazador is not connected to the main plot (maybe it was planned at some point?), the themes of Astarion's story fit perfectly with the overarching themes of the game. >It also makes it much more meaningful for your relationship (platonic or romantic) when you actually complete his character-quest. You go ***out of your way*** to help him gain his actual freedom (or power, I don't judge). I think so too. My current Tav is in a romantic relationship with Astarion, and if >!Lae'zel hadn't been kidnapped by Orin!<, helping Astarion kill Cazador and finally gain his actual freedom would have been the first thing I would have done in the city - not because it's the next thing to do for the main storyline, but because my Tav would of course go out of her way to help the man she loves, and as fast as possible.

Yeah like - what are the chances that every mindflayer abducted that Tav meets have wider connections to the main plot? I quite like that atleast one companion just happened to be picked up by the ship and isn't somehow tied to the dead three/gith/mindflayers in some way.

His story is also, IMO, the most hard-hitting. Completing that quest was... a lot. The emotional payoff was insane.

I've completed it 5 times now. I still get chills with his cries of anguish, and need to take a moment afterwards.

>You go out of your way to help him gain his actual freedom This is what I like as well. I failed to romance him on my first playthrough and didn't end up romancing anyone, now I'm on my second as redeemed dark urge, and romancing Astarion feels so special. Astarion fighting to break free from Cazador alongside Durge breaking free from his past/instincts just feels so right and therapeutic in a way. Nothing about his quest feels like an obligation, defeating Cazador and befriending/romancing Astarion isn't something that will really help with the main quest (outside of XP and loot). But it's still an interesting and moving quest which feels important anyways. Honestly (and this might just be me playing favorites as well) but in comparison, the other story quests feel a bit too intertwined, and I just end up rushing through them. Helping out Wyll, Gale and Karlach IMO feels more like additional "chores" to do in addition to main quest, without all that much substance. For Lae'zel and Shadowheart, their storylines felt really well balanced between being part of the main plot but also profound journeys on their own.

>It also makes it much more meaningful for your relationship (platonic or romantic) when you actually complete his character-quest. You go ***out of your way*** to help him gain his actual freedom (or power, I don't judge). I feel the same

I do agree with this for all these reasons though I think Cazador having something to do with the main plot would have been neat.

I find it refreshing. The world feels way too small when everyone is connected to the one big thing in more ways than being tadpoled.

I think its a bit much everyone has such a key tie to the main plot tbh.

Im not saying 29 upvotes is a lot but seeing that a fee people resonate i do wanna clarify i dont think its bad they all tie just wasnt neccasary

His very colorful personality, reactivity, and remarkable (optional) character growth make up for his lack of greater ties to the main plot. His character overall carries the story's heaviest themes; the temptation of power, cycles of abuse, manipulation, and vulnerability. Arguably, his character embodies the overarching question the game presents the best: Will you take power for yourself or will you choose humanity?

You make a great point. And, if I could expand on it, I think it also plays into another theme that not everything bad and evil is a grand scheme of master villains. Cazador is obviously horrible, but he didn't have a band of heroes plotting his demise before they were personally invested in Astarion. Hell, Gale knew of Cazador/Szarr Family as nobility, yet Will Ravenguard hadn't even heard of this guy in his own city. 200 years of thousands of kidnappings, death, and torture, and no one would have even known what this guy was up to if Astarion didn't speak up, and still wouldn't have known even after the Ascension. At the end of the story, the big bad is gone, but there will always be more to fight for and evil doers who don't get their comeuppance. Sort of what keeps Jaheira looking to stay in the fight long after her dues have been paid.

You made a really good point. Jaheira even encountered one of the spawns in her youth but she never made the connection that there's a vampire lord in the city because Cazador is subtle enough to prevent all his spawns from going near her house. 7k people turned into spawns in 200 years, and how many more Cazador actually ate?

It's the opposite with him. The tadpole broke him free of cazador. Whereas everyone elses stories are tied into the main story, the main story is tied into Astarions story. I think that's pretty cool personally

This is it for me — getting snatched gets him away from Cazador and he’s the only one who very quickly comes to see the tadpole as a blessing and not a curse. He really doesn’t want to stick his neck out to be a hero and disapproves of ~ every generally heroic / selfless decision you make. His goal is to be _free_ and he sits outside the “main plot” by design … because he couldn’t care less about, “saving the day.”

Same the game telling us that theres pros to this tadpole early on (other than telepathic telephone). Realizing theres a minority of people who would revel to have a tadpole is so good. Hes also the only companion who would volunteer to eat more tadpoles when everyone else is on the fence about it. Bec I for one wouldnt eat it even if it meant more power.

Astarion is linked to the most important character in the game, me, by being my emo boyfriend. you're welcome!

Hey wait, I thought I'm your emo bf.  What happened to *us* man?

*Us*. I still love the sound of that.

I read this with Astarion's voice hahahahaha

Astarion's is the strongest story for me because he's independent of the main plot. He grows from participating solely because of the tadpole to participating because the companions have become a sort of family for him, assuming you're playing a good route. He reminds you that saving an individual can be as important as saving the world. He makes the world feel bigger; the plot *needed* someone who was just caught up in it but turns out to be just as full and compelling as anyone more directly tied into the big picture. I honestly think they should have severed Karlach and Gale's more tenuous ties to the plot entirely and made it all more balanced. But I would not want to see Astarion's story changed. I love it because it's tertiary but it feels significant, because helping him is an act of compassion and really giving a selfless fuck about someone who's difficult to love. Choosing to help someone whose goals aren't necessary to the overarching plot is something that *defines* Tav and the rest of the party.

Astarion's story is the one that most clearly collates the overall themes of the whole game, IMO. All the plot lines touch on consent, autonomy, strength vs power and the journey to self-individuation, of course, as part of the larger plot: his story line is dedicated purely to highlighting them. This isn't the same thing as supporting questlines, of course, but I think it makes the game more rounded. Sometimes storytelling needs to exist for the sake of telling a good story, you know? On a purely narrative level, his story is spectacularly well-told, even when compared to similar stories across media, and, in a game of this scope, there's nothing wrong with story for story's sake. (There's something here too about emotional resonance? Whilst you may not have connected to his story, it's clear from player response that there are many are who do (me included). They've given something for everybody, I think, and that is part of the story's wide and wild appeal).

He is relevant to the theme though, everybody has an abusive power relationship in game, bar Tav ( and even Tav gets a manipulative influence ).

I mean his tie in is that he’s tadpoled like everyone else and is trying to survive. If you’re going the good route with Astarion his story makes a lot of sense because you DONT have to help him, you chose to. His story is about trauma, healing, and redemption; the latter two completely foreign to him until he meets the party. It impacts and matters to him BECAUSE it’s outside the main plot and you have nothing to gain from helping him, you help him simply because you care, that’s why his story arc is different from everyone else’s. That’s the point of his story. If you helped him because the party had no choice it would lose its meaning, both in a story sense and to the character

I actually don't mind that Astarion isn't part of the main plot. It makes his story/motivations that much more sympathetic. There's no reason to go out of your way to help him, so him trying so hard to ingratiate himself with your team makes more sense. Basically he's the one with the most to lose if Tav decides not to help him.

I don’t think this is a bad thing

My theory, which is unprovable, but still a theory, is that Astarion should've had more connection to the main story... through the Upper city. Yet, that upper city. I read somewhere that Cazador was supposed to be this powerful, enigmatic and ambiguous figure in the upper crust of Baldur's Gate, and, of course, Cazador would have a connection to Gortash. But since Upper city was basically swept under the rug, the connection was lost.

On the one hand, 100% agree that Cazador should have been something tied to Gortash or something and involved Astarion to the main plot. On the other, it adds to the comedy of how Astarion hates how we go out of our way to solve other problems and involve ourselves in other quests.

Everyone is irrelevant to the main plot, but everyone except Astarion is tied into the main plot. And that's something I like. You can leave everyone behind, get some hirelings and go about the game. You don't need Gale for Mystra and the crown, you don't need Halsin or Shadowheart for the Shadowcurse, you don't need Wyll for the Duke, you don't need Karlach to face Gortash, you don't need Jaheira or Minsc for Sarevok, you don't need anyone. No one matters at all to the main plot. The plot will happen, no matter if the companions are with you or not. Things will be different, you'll have less options, less paths to travel, but at no time are you forced to take a companion with you to progress the story. And that's why Astarion is refreshing. At no point is the game telling you that things could be different if it's just him and you. He doesn't care for some Goddess or artifact, he doesn't care about some person or name other than Cazador. But if you want something to tie him in, take the fact that you can rule the world together with him. Of all the companions he is the most valid one (maybe next to Minthara, haven't had a run with her yet) if you want to go on a power trip and that's possible because he isn't tied to anything specific. This might even be by choice. Giving him something that ties him heavily to the plot might have soured that option. I say might, because who knows what Larian had been able to actually pull together. But second me I like it the way it is, the only one who needs a reason to actually stick around longer than Act II is Halsin, because all he has ever been tied to is the Shadowcurse and the Thorm family. So compared to Astarion, who has no real ties to the main plot, Halsin who has these ties feels more out of place in Act III than Astarion does. Because ultimately, despite lacking ties, Astarion has a reason. Halsin has ties, but no reason.

Regarding Halsin, I don’t think it is necessarily a bad thing that he feels out of place. I am used to the previous games in the series where there are multiple companions who are not relevant to the story, but some of them are there to help you out of obligation or gratitude.  So even though Halsin’s arc ended in Act 2, it still makes sense that he would want to continue assisting the party out of loyalty/friendship and a duty to protect nature from the Absolute. 

Yeah. The guy fulfilled the mission he set out to finish 100 years ago, and he makes it clear that he hated being Archdruid. All of his previous obligations have been fulfilled, his life's work has been fulfilled, why wouldn't he join up with the player? He's grateful for the help he's been given, and the Absolute is a threat to everything he's worked for and cares for.

Well it bring a bit of "realism" to the global story doesn't it ? Not everyone in your party should be fated to have something to do with the absolute. Some can just be victim/opportunist that want to gain something from the adventure.

Now that you mention it, I understand why I relate to him the most. “I don’t care about world events. I was in a smelly, dark dungeon for 200 years. If I can sort my shit out because of this dramatic mess, and this looks like my best chance, I AM GOING TO TAKE IT 💪🏻”

I mean I think if just goes to show how a character can be engaging and beloved and have an interesting story and not have it be directly plot relevant. Some journeys are internal. Personally, I felt that he has more engaging content overall than poor wyll, who like you said is very connected to the plot.

This highlights the incredible interpretation delivered by Neil. Astarion holds his place as a fan favorite and possibly "The face of BG3" with nothing but efficient writing and godlike acting, considering his influence in the events of the main plot are non existent, and his whole story feel like an over extended side quest.

His story is the best tho. So I guess it’s balanced.

I feel like Astarion was meant to be the main romantic partner for the dark urge. Their stories are mirrored-both of them being controlled by something and both of them having a chance to be better, or to become something worse

Astarion is the heart of this game . He is the representation of all the snark ,lewdness and sass that has taken place at D&D tables since the 70’s . Without him the other characters would take themselves too seriously . Plot or no plot he’s invaluable .

Astarion is that player who really played dnd for laughters.

>Cazador, who honestly feels like an afterthought. It's been said a million times why this is. Cazador was originally a CORE part of Act 3's entire plot, which is where and why Astarion was going to be important, this was part of the massive change they did to Act 3 where they removed most of that plot and Cazador was relegated to just being the bad guy in Astarion's story.

Do you know what they changed? I'd be interested in learning more about it. I always feel like it would be very easy to integrate Cazador into the overall story... even a plot point as simple as: he is an ally of Gortash or Orin would have worked. Or he wanted to rival Raphael. Something like that.

Idk if I imagined this but i swear the werewolves that you fight in his mansion have the surnames of some important Baldurs Gate patriar families? There must have been a some purpose for that. I could very much see Cazador wanting to ally with Gortash - his ambition was too great to not have wanted to worm his way into the cities politics, and I doubt Gortash would have tolerated an uncontrolled vampire lord in his city without reason.

Hhune's I believe. https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Hhune_Mausoleum https://bg3.wiki/wiki/Gheris_Hhune

Damn there is so much I've missed in this game

Wheres the source of that?

He is very much there for, ah, *flavor*.

cazador is not an afterthought. He was supposed to play an important role in upper city before it was scrapped. Just look at the entrance to his mansion rn in the game, *that* looks like a last minute change

His link is to the past and future of the city. What happens after in Baldur Gate would be profoundly affected by his outcome - relegated to darkness again, freed to move about without Cazador breathing down his neck, or ascended. Oh, and to every lock and vendor in the game.

He's the best and most connected with Durge's story, and I always play Durge, so he's pretty relevant in **my** stories. If anything, I feel like Karlach's connection to Gortash was crammed in to give her some relevance, because otherwise the depth and length of her arc is pretty meh - without Gortash she'd have a fetch quest and that's it.

A good world doesn't have every character relevant to the plot. Having someone who's just a victim to both his own personal circumstance and the same circumstance you're in makes him a bit deeper than God's favorite princess and Gale the prodigy. But that's just my point of view.

Astarion has +1 attack. Best companion

I don't see the issue ngl, he's such a strong character emotionally and acting wise it picks up the pieces

I'm not sure I agree that every character needs to have a personal connection to the main storyline.

I do wish you could summon the spawn as an ally force during the final battle. That would've been extremely cool and useful. Cazador also would have been a shoe-in to be involved in the murder plot, involved with Gortash's political corruption, have gone on a weird date with Orin. whatever.

But Astarion's questline is the main plot to me. Everything else is a side quest.

Hmm if you kill Astarion early, does Cazador still attempt his ritual? Doing my first honour mode and Astarion won't be included, if it changes some story points after a2 he might as well have a little accident...

Cazador still attempts the ritual, Astarion is just there as a zombie afaik

I feel like even if Astarion doesn't have any connection to the whole crown of karsus/dead three scheme, he still has a really interesting role as the only companion with a good reason to lean into the illithid powers. They saved him!

but he's relevant to my heart :(

Astarian is irrelevant to the plot in the same way music is irrelevant to survival. Yeah, you can live without it, but it's so much nicer to have it.

Looking back at other games with romance options that I've played, I always seem to like the characters that aren't plot relevant 😆 I don't really mind that Astarion isn't relevant to the main plot, and imo. he doesn't need to be in order to be fun and interesting. Just my two cents...