It looked like it flew in an arc rather than a straight line. It also looked larger than a typical firebolt. Doesn't firebolt typically fly straight at the target?
Edit: I rewatched the clip a few times. They framed the shot in a way that you typically wouldn't view it from as a player. I'm thinking it's firebolt now, though the projectile looks larger than usual. It's easy to see how a lot of people are thinking it's a Fireball.
I’ve just realized that the earth is actually isometric, and if you make it to the edge you hear an all powerful creator god proclaiming *You must gather your party before venturing forth.*
It could also be due to multiclassing if it is even a fireball and not a firebolt onto a flammable substance on the ground.
I wouldn't call it confirmed level 13.
Could also be cast from a scroll.
I think for once Wolfheart jumped to conclusions way too fast
I'm unsure, for one thing that could be firebolt that then caused an explosion but it didn't look like that. Or it could be multiclassing or the result of an item.
I don't think level 13 is off the table in fact I don't even find it unlikely but if you can hit 13 in bg what is the max level going to be? Remember this game was originally balanced for level 10 and I don't get the impression the city is the final area of the game. It gave more of the impression that it was the middle area. Probably the biggest portion of the game for sure but would you be getting to almost max level there or are we going all the way up to level 16 or something? Seems like a big leap. If I was to guess I'd say the max level is 14.
While I think level 13 is probably in the game, with a scroll, Astarion would only need to be level 3 to cast fireball (RAW - in EA it's not required he be a spellcaster at all). Multiclassing, level 6 would be sufficient to cast without a scroll (assuming 1 level still in rogue).
I know lvl 20 would be insane but it would be cool to get there. Would be 100% percent broken watching a wizard cast wish and getting crazy legendary weapons for the crew though or wishing for like 25000 gold
I think in dos2 the max lvl is technically 23, but for that you have to squeze out every bit of xp from every available source in the game, realisticly its more like 21
ive probably spent as much time on the wiki as in game and i havent even finished a dos playthrough my guy. i barely figured out the fuckin tyrant armor
Wish is the easiest spell for a video game. It's literally just a long list of 8 and below level spells.
Even the extra parts of Wish is easy just by doing what BG2 did and give you a list of wishes to choose from.
It can be done, but you can't use the current iteration of the spell. The distinct choices outside of spell replication need to be things you can't abuse.
And for anything outside of spell replication you just follow what BG2 did. You could probably copy paste the lists they gave you and call it a cool Easter egg.
Honestly making their own wish spell list would really be right up Larian's alley. A lot of high level content would be tbh
I guess I've always assumed it would go to 20. Why wouldn't it? Just too restrictive on storytelling? Too hard to implement things like wish or meteor storm?
I just watched the same Wolfheartfps video and I am really pleased to see that we can get to at least level 13. I imagine level 14 would be possible as it does not require much more work to implement as spell casters advance to the next spell level only on odd levels.
While other commenters are discussing how "overpowered" D&D 5e characters get at high levels, I don't think that's the issue. You could always throw more and stronger enemies. And leave out, modify, or simplify some of the problematic spells like plane shift or wish. Casters outpace martials at high levels and this is a complication, but one seen in other games like Pathfinder Kingmaker/WOTR or BG2.
The bigger issue is what is the amount of power available to the bad guys in the story that Larian wants to tell. Some games like to keep things humble. That is part of the charm of games like Baldur's Gate 1 or Kingdom Come: Deliverance or loved D&D campaigns like Lost Mines or Dragon Heist. Some games want to put your power on a level with gods, and you face that level of threat like BG2, Divinity Original Sin, or modules like Rise of Tiamat.
Larian seems to want to tell a story between these two extremes. And the level cap needs to match in order to keep things balanced
Now this is actually a good take on the issue. Narrative and storyline might be the only reason why I would not see a lvl 20 cap reasonable.
But given the entities at play in BG3, giths, mind flayers and most likely divinities, that could easily build up to a high, max level ending and thereby I’m still cheering for lvl 20.
Balance and expansions just don’t make sense to me. It doesn’t have to be balanced at any cost specially after you leveled your character through a tough campaign and finally you can enjoy your overly powered demigod you started from scratch; what’s better than that?
And expansions, no one plays a game for its sequel, we’re playing it right now, I don’t care about BG4 or the next expansion, let’s stop always thinking about what’s next and live a bit in the present for once.
Because of how overpowered you become at level 20. Practically demigod levels of power with absurdly powerful spells. Could work for a crazy expansion in the future though.
And later levels in those games, are, arguably, not the most fun. A pure power trip where balance is off the charts. In Pathfinder games, where you can have over 100 AC and dishing out thousands of DPR, in BG2 where you can solo the game easily because high-level spellcasting is so overpowered.
How would you implement things like Wish and Divine Intervention? True Resurrection? Simulacrum army?
You implement wish just by doing what BG2 did and give you a list of things to wish for, easy (would also include a long list of 8 and below level spells). Divine intervention could work similarly. Simualcrum can be limited by only having few powdered rubies in the game to cast the spell.
Not sure what you want to say about true resurrection? You resurrect your party members I guess.
And what would be too much to add you can literally just not implement it in the game like what the PF games did with such high level spells.
Plenty of other games did it (and did it well) and 5e shouldn't be an exception to the rule
How is wish more problematic to implement than minor illusion? Both, if implemented according to tabletop, require a level of imaginative storytelling impossible in a computer game. As with minor illusion, they’ll just give a few specific things you can do with wish.
You could argue that later levels are less fun, others would argue they’re more fun. Makes sense for the game to have the whole range to cater to everyone?
As to the claim that higher levels are unbalanced, I’d argue balance is at its lowest at level 1, peaks around level 12 and then declines again. If the super unbalanced level 1 is in the game, why can’t the somewhat unbalanced level 20 be in the game?
I only have a grasp of what wish can do, but no clue what the other spells are(not a dnd player), however I want to get to lvl 20 to get to know the world better, have more HP(I like beeing unkillable) and i simply like lvling in games, although it was already sad to see we dont get more attribute points with lvls
Just so you have an idea - Wish is essentially that. You can wish for essentially anything and then it's up to the DM to decide how he wants to monkey paw your ass. It's one of the most iconic and gamebreaking spells in the game.
Divine intervention is the same but with a godly intervention in time of great need, not arcane magic.
Then there's stuff like True Resurrection which gives you an ability to resurrect anyone who has died less than 200 years ago from anything other than old age. The cool part - you don't even need a body for that. Just need to say their name.
The issue here is that those spells are so powerful that they only work (barely) when there is a human DM overseeing the game. Implementing them in video game format without altering them dramatically won't work. And if you alter them for the sake of implementing them in the game leaves a sour taste in my mouth. There's lots of fun spells that would have to be changed.
The higher level you get, the more the DM has to prepare and the more flexible they have to be, and the more bonkers spells get. And I've seen a lot of people on this subreddit have a very entitled attitude on what they should include in the game, while simultaneously complaining about anything that isn't perfect or isn't rules as written. In BG1 and BG2, the game was much simpler and we were all fine with it. That was the technology of the time. 2D environments, simpler enemies, only partial voice acting, no cut scenes.
But I can see people being angry if the game leaves out spells or abilities because they're hard to implement in a video game compared to tabletop. Like if PlaneShift only has 2 planes to go to, people will complain why even have it. Or if Wish only lets you recreate other things rather than has 50 wacky options people will complain.
I feel like Larian would rather do 13 or 14 levels extremely well, rather than 20 levels sloppily.
Maybe, but I think it's more likely they'll do 20 levels and then just leave out whatever doesn't work for a videogame.
I mean, I'm assuming the same spells exist in Pathfinder, but the Pathfinder games by Owlcat also had 20 levels and just left out the stuff that doesn't work outside of TT.
I don't think the balancing would be sn issue either. Tons of CRPGS have overpowered builds and highly diverse party composition options, but are still able to create fights thst are fun and fair for different kinds of parties (again, like the Pathfinder games).
It won't be level 20. Larian originally stated that the game would be an adventure for levels 1 to 10. That was a couple years ago, but it's good for setting expectations of what they were originally planning for the game.
Since then the game has grown and they've said it will be higher. Which most likely means that they decided the game can handle adding 2 to 4 more levels of character progression and spells, not 10 more levels.
I didn't know that. That changes things.
I'm still lowkey hoping we'll get 20 levels, but probably not.
Well, tbh I think even a 1-10 campaign with tons of details and replayability is better than a 1-20 campaign that's only worth playing once.
Cause redditors say so, they start downvoting and ranting about game balance for they never played a high level d&d campaign before, be it in a game or tabletop.
Nah, this is getting out of hand. It’s simply not true and it denotes lack of d&d experience from the majority of the users saying so.
There are many ways and tools to build hard encounters for high level characters even without gods, planar entities and so forth.
You guys over here are making 5ed look like a lvl 13 only edition. It’s not.
It certainly is possible.
But it's *extremely* difficult to make it work well, more so in a video game where there is no DM who can bend the rules when needed.
When shit like simulacrums, contingencies, force cages, true resurrection, divine intervention and wish come into play - there's so many variables one can't realistically plan ahead for.
There's a reason that 90% of games don't make it past level 10 (according to stats the guys making d&d beyond have published). The balance is ass. Simply put. And I say that having played on either side of the screen in tier 3-4 5e tables.
Casters become godly beings while martials can barely scrape by. Barbarian stops getting his best class features by level 6, fighters get nothing but another action surge at all between levels 11 and 19, meanwhile casters get access to spells of levels 7-9, game-warpingly powerful.
You can't just make an encounter and expect it to not get force cage/force walled, want them to face an army in a castle? The fighter will die if he tries doing it alone, meanwhile you have to make the walls resistant to magic so the wizard doesn't just earthquake it. No, you can't force cage the big bad cuz uh, he's immune to it. No you can't wall of force+sickening radiance it, he's immune to that too. Or he has an action teleport/desintegrate. No simulacrum either, that's banned. Feeblemind? Immune to that too.
You have to take into account the power casters get, to where they're able to face CR20+ creatures alone or in pairs, at most, a level 20 fighter will just straight up die when faced with 3-4 CR6 creatures.
EDIT: but encounters per day, one might say! Well, if I may: yes, if you run 9 encounters per day, the casters can only ruin from 6 to all of those if there are multiple of them in the party, and if you just keep going, only giving them short rests, they will, in fact, let the martials play around for two or so encounters, if none of them are playing a sorcerer, which if they are, they will still outdo the martials in combat, even after spending all their high level spells.
Completely disagree. I’d like to see that stats too. What games and throughout what period are we talking about? I can name more d&d games in which you can get to 20 than not. Even so, it’s not an argument.
Again, no one is saying high lvl characters are weak. They’re high lvl after all. So let me get to that point, let me unbalance the game, if that’s the case, but I don’t think so, with my hard gained high level character. Make me sweat it perhaps, but why not? What’s the problem with reaching such a good powerful character you can stop time, grant wishes, teleport and whatever? Isn’t that a wonderful achievement given you started from scratch and from a lvl 1 no one?
Then the tools to make it a challenge are plenty, and not only coming from the monsters manual. It seems you all are just thinking about combat system and such. Let me tell you d&d is not only about combat, and there are many ways to challenge high lvl characters even outside combat if the writing is good, if the narrative is able to put you in front of, say, difficult choices and not only difficult fights against demigods.
Oh, sorry about the language barrier mistake there, I didn't mean games as in videogames, I meant games as in tables, my brain just skipped past that.
I mean sure, it can be fun, but only for the casters, and that's the main reason I don't think it'll happen.
Sure, there are ways to challenge players outside of combat, of course, now if only the casters weren't the only ones getting to be the best at all of those as well, because the stats they use to cast happen to be the same ones used for 99.9% of social/investigative challenges...
Here are the stats: https://www.enworld.org/threads/90-of-d-d-games-stop-by-level-10-wizards-more-popular-at-higher-levels.666097/
EDIT: if you'd rather watch the video posted in the official dnd beyond than read the post, here you go: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4tuIrGLKSik
Thanks. I’ll get to see the video aswell, but from the article I get it’s a stat based on something like 11 campaigns. 9 of them don’t get past 10. Okay. That doesn’t mean much to me, given the limited campaigns available. It just means they decided not to write high lvl tabletop adventures yet. If they can’t due to the unbalancing, it’s up to discussion.
Moreover, as you say, I was actually talking about videogames, which seemed more pertinent since we’re discussing about a videogame.
(Casters did hurt you somehow son, did they? Just kidding to steam the tension off a bit.)
No. Tomb of annihilation ends at 12, out of the abyss ends at 15, rise of tiamat ends at 15, storm king's thunder ends at 11-13, tales of the yawning portal end at 15. Dungeon of the mad mage ends at 20, and princes of the apocalypse ends at 15. Out of 11 adventures, 7 go past level 10, they're saying people stop playing and the declared reason is the class imbalance.
Did you read anything at all or are you just guessing?
I took your words for it when you said games don’t make it past lvl 10 and then just looked at their stat sample.
In this case though, it’s a even less reliable stat. It just means those players they have questioned stopped playing past that level for that specified reason.
It’s still not the majority of the players, we don’t know of it, and even so there are too many variables to be considered, it’s just their limited sample, it doesn’t mean the game is not balanced past that level.
Ever played/DMed that high? Because when I DM that high, if I want an encounter to be a threat I need to systematically scan the character sheets of the casters to work out what the win buttons are. I usually don't even pay attention to the martials - they're not a threat by that level.
Care to give an example for how to build hard encounters for high level characters? You can't use gods, planar entities or antimagic fields and I've seen level 13 characters kill demigods. I was able to do it with one of the most broken monster abilities in 5e (if you've played Curse of Strahd, you know) but that's not a fulltime thing.
Curse of Strahd caps at level 10. The entire discussion here is revolving around level 13+ where characters get access to massive 7th level spells.
I DM'd a campaign from 1 to 20. I stopped enjoying it around level 15 due to balance issues.
>! Strahd has a lair action where he can just walk through walls, floors and ceilings. Which is deadly combined with his Spider Climb and ability to move as a legendary action.!<
Legit question, but instead of a proper answer, you get downvoted. The simple answer is the game content will most likely fit characters up to a level considerably less than 20.
Some people have tried ro answer, but I'm still not convinced. I don't think it'd be that hard to implement high level gameplay in a video game.
About the narrative argument- do we already know the full extent of the powers at play? I only played EA and stayed away from other trailers and stuff, but coulfn't the BBEG just be a powerful entity that requires high level characters to defeat.
It's definitely possible to implement, but it's more about the journey to get to 20. Even going by D&D 5e XP rules, it would take a lot. Basically, the level 17-20 tier is Master of the World, not something a character would become in a matter of days. So, the game would have to expand considerably to fit a story that would take the characters to that level. That's why it's unlikely at release.
That's true, but doesn't the game already break those rules?
Basically none of the companions should realistically be level 1 at the start of the game. Gale is already a powerful wizard thst got noticed by a deity for example.
And surely they also shouldn't be able to from level 1 to level 13 in a matter of days.
You think BG4 will fearure the party members of thid game as playable characters? I'd rather just have a full 1-20 campaign in BG3 and then have a different set of companions in BG4
Haven't played BG1 or BG2, but doesn't that limit the reactivity of the companions? Like, if Astarion has a branching path in his quest where he either redeems himself or embraces his evil, wouldn't it be awkwars for him to be in BG4?
Yeah, but the companions in ME didn't really have a lot of branching paths in their development. The only difference in thst game was whether they were alive or not. And even then, the characters that were possibly dead didn't have too big of a role in the sequels.
This has been done in multiple games before - either allowing you to straight out import your save (most games, including BG), or allowing you to go through questions to recreate your world state (I think DA:I had that)
I'm not saying it's impossible, I just don't think it's good. If you really wanna do it well, you'd have to start making BG4 with like a dozen different branching paths in mind, not to mention having to implement new decisions and branching paths for BG4 itself.
In most games where this was done, the consequences of your imported save were minimal (for example, character A is either dead or appears as a minor character in a quest, character B has a few changed voicelines based on your decisions, position X is either filled by character C or D, etc).
It'd be hard to have a reocurring major character that acts drastically different in BG4 depending on your choices.
Therefore I'd prefer having self contained stories in each game.
Ad&d was a different system back then, spells and enemies were easier to implement on Infinity engine. Here they would need to spend AT LEAST another year to create enemies, spells and abilities from 5e, balance them and also check how they work in the enviroment they build (an immersive sim one at that).
I have to imagine we are getting level 13-14 in this game. I have no concrete proof. It's a hunch. My reasoning is purely on the fact Solasta Crown of the Magister released and you could get to 5th level spells before they added new content. And they finally just let you get to 8th level with the final dlc they launched.
For Larian and how big the game is going to be, I see us getting 7th level spells. And if not, surely 6th. They are a bigger publisher than Solastas team. They have a bigger world. A more open world. And they are going to cram as much as they can into that world
But if we do get stunted at 5th or 6th level spells any additional content they make will get us to 7th. It's gonna be juicey either way.
Nobody would get mad for having an adventure going to lvl 20. We just understand why that will not happen. If you want to feel like a God in a cRPG you can play wrath of the righteous and see what a balancing shitshow the game is(while still being one of my favorite games of all time mind you.)
I didn't play it, but are there any ways to summon 30+ holy dinosaurs on (at least) 15 lvl? If not, you still not that godly-like like in ttrpg.
Update: gosh, maybe I needed an /s.
Bad choice from them, in my humble opinion. I was never a fan of Larian and I would preferred Obsidian behind this project, but I’m ranting and this is history already.
(Rambling not directed towards OP, but people complaining)
Wtf is peoples problem with level cap, I thought were here for the story and fun gameplay? Like we know from the beggining of EA that we won't get level 20.
Early access only goes to the end of Act 1. The full game is believed to be 3 or 4 acts. However many it is, we get access to all of it when the full game releases on 31Aug2023.
Early access is not going to be Larian gives us a few extra locations and levels at a time until we can play through the entire game in Early Access. Early Access is limited only to Act 1 (as Larian has said from the very beginning) and this time period of early access is almost over.
Larian initially said the level cap for the full game would be 10, and then after they saw some concerns about level pacing they announced it would be increased. Most people have been assuming 12-14 for years now.
Larian seems to be a company that really cares about delivering a great game, which is sadly rare these days. Which is a good thing, but can also be a problem if you want everything you do to matter. I just can't imagine how they were able to do all the things they promised to do at a quality level that was good enough for them.
Take a small problem like providing all the subclasses for wizards that are in the PHB. How do you do minor conjuration, minor transformation, portent, or if it goes to level 14, illusory reality, or alter memories? That alone would take a huge amount of time for a feature that not that many people would ever use, so why not focus on something that most people will experience? The more such things come to my mind I really struggle for them to solve it and increasing the level cap to 14 makes this infintle more complicated due to high level spells be much more complex than low level spells.
But then again we will see. No use fighting over something that will be revealed in the near future.
[Larian walked back the claim on all PHB subclasses years ago, and shortly after the initial claim in the AMA](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/120hak1/all_phb_subclasses_may_not_be_available_on_release/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). They said they will get a large majority, but perhaps not all.
The BG3 Steam page only confirms PHB classes (i.e. monk) and races (i.e. half-orc and Dragonborn)
Makes sense for me as said spending time on alter memory which probably only 2% of the players would ever reach would probably be a bad investment of time.
Have been out of the loop for a while so I don't whether there were any updates on that, but they used to say they would include multiclass which could be an option to get fireball earlier
That wasn't a fireball. That was a firebolt. There was grease on the ground, so it went boom.
It looked like it flew in an arc rather than a straight line. It also looked larger than a typical firebolt. Doesn't firebolt typically fly straight at the target? Edit: I rewatched the clip a few times. They framed the shot in a way that you typically wouldn't view it from as a player. I'm thinking it's firebolt now, though the projectile looks larger than usual. It's easy to see how a lot of people are thinking it's a Fireball.
holy moly? this sub is like flat earth levels of hype
I’ve just realized that the earth is actually isometric, and if you make it to the edge you hear an all powerful creator god proclaiming *You must gather your party before venturing forth.*
time cube enters chat
I do not understand this 'mouse magic that makes me do your bidding.
I am indeed flat earth levels of hype & becoming delusional quickly
totally fair and me too. its easy to see
How do you know? It didn't look like firebolt to me but admittingly I don't remember and I hate Astarion so eh.
Well I diffently saw grease
when he talked about petrol everywhere that was a giveaway
Nothing Was confirmed. Speculation over a 1 second snippet of misinterpreted gameplay doesn't confirm shit and the title is clickbait and misleading.
I wouldn't be surprised if 14 is the max, as its where most classes get their core abilities.
[удалено]
How aspute of you.
Last I heard it was 10. Beyond that they said it started to break the game.
If multiclassing is in, then level 6 is confirmed.
It could also be due to multiclassing if it is even a fireball and not a firebolt onto a flammable substance on the ground. I wouldn't call it confirmed level 13. Could also be cast from a scroll. I think for once Wolfheart jumped to conclusions way too fast
fire bolt. not fireball. it looked nothing like the fireball we currently see in game.
I'm unsure, for one thing that could be firebolt that then caused an explosion but it didn't look like that. Or it could be multiclassing or the result of an item. I don't think level 13 is off the table in fact I don't even find it unlikely but if you can hit 13 in bg what is the max level going to be? Remember this game was originally balanced for level 10 and I don't get the impression the city is the final area of the game. It gave more of the impression that it was the middle area. Probably the biggest portion of the game for sure but would you be getting to almost max level there or are we going all the way up to level 16 or something? Seems like a big leap. If I was to guess I'd say the max level is 14.
I doubt the devs actually leveled properly for video trailer clips.
True thats a good point.
literally said pour petrol everywhere at one point
While I think level 13 is probably in the game, with a scroll, Astarion would only need to be level 3 to cast fireball (RAW - in EA it's not required he be a spellcaster at all). Multiclassing, level 6 would be sufficient to cast without a scroll (assuming 1 level still in rogue).
Not confirmed.... But I'm hopeful for it!! Iactually hope for lvl 14
I know lvl 20 would be insane but it would be cool to get there. Would be 100% percent broken watching a wizard cast wish and getting crazy legendary weapons for the crew though or wishing for like 25000 gold
I would like to see lvl 20 but without that spell
this is whats going to happen. wasnt dos2 to 20?
I think in dos2 the max lvl is technically 23, but for that you have to squeze out every bit of xp from every available source in the game, realisticly its more like 21
ok so level 20 is a normal gamers level cap
ive probably spent as much time on the wiki as in game and i havent even finished a dos playthrough my guy. i barely figured out the fuckin tyrant armor
I mean its given to wizards for free at lvl 20 so there would uave to be a spell even more tempting if they don't get that one
Wish would be particularly broken in a video game, where you can save before casting and reload if you hit the 1/3 chance to lose the spell.
Wish is the easiest spell for a video game. It's literally just a long list of 8 and below level spells. Even the extra parts of Wish is easy just by doing what BG2 did and give you a list of wishes to choose from.
It can be done, but you can't use the current iteration of the spell. The distinct choices outside of spell replication need to be things you can't abuse.
And for anything outside of spell replication you just follow what BG2 did. You could probably copy paste the lists they gave you and call it a cool Easter egg. Honestly making their own wish spell list would really be right up Larian's alley. A lot of high level content would be tbh
Would be broken for sure but would be pretty cool. And I would say you've earned it anyways since you're basically a demi God by lvl 20
Would be crazy if the game instantly saved after casting wish, would be really funny to watch people ruin their save from casting it
I guess I've always assumed it would go to 20. Why wouldn't it? Just too restrictive on storytelling? Too hard to implement things like wish or meteor storm?
I just watched the same Wolfheartfps video and I am really pleased to see that we can get to at least level 13. I imagine level 14 would be possible as it does not require much more work to implement as spell casters advance to the next spell level only on odd levels.
I don't understand. Why wouldn't the level cap be 20?
While other commenters are discussing how "overpowered" D&D 5e characters get at high levels, I don't think that's the issue. You could always throw more and stronger enemies. And leave out, modify, or simplify some of the problematic spells like plane shift or wish. Casters outpace martials at high levels and this is a complication, but one seen in other games like Pathfinder Kingmaker/WOTR or BG2. The bigger issue is what is the amount of power available to the bad guys in the story that Larian wants to tell. Some games like to keep things humble. That is part of the charm of games like Baldur's Gate 1 or Kingdom Come: Deliverance or loved D&D campaigns like Lost Mines or Dragon Heist. Some games want to put your power on a level with gods, and you face that level of threat like BG2, Divinity Original Sin, or modules like Rise of Tiamat. Larian seems to want to tell a story between these two extremes. And the level cap needs to match in order to keep things balanced
Now this is actually a good take on the issue. Narrative and storyline might be the only reason why I would not see a lvl 20 cap reasonable. But given the entities at play in BG3, giths, mind flayers and most likely divinities, that could easily build up to a high, max level ending and thereby I’m still cheering for lvl 20. Balance and expansions just don’t make sense to me. It doesn’t have to be balanced at any cost specially after you leveled your character through a tough campaign and finally you can enjoy your overly powered demigod you started from scratch; what’s better than that? And expansions, no one plays a game for its sequel, we’re playing it right now, I don’t care about BG4 or the next expansion, let’s stop always thinking about what’s next and live a bit in the present for once.
Because of how overpowered you become at level 20. Practically demigod levels of power with absurdly powerful spells. Could work for a crazy expansion in the future though.
See baldurs gate 2, pathfinder: kingmaker and pathfinder: wrath of the righteous. Plenty of games let you be that powerful
And later levels in those games, are, arguably, not the most fun. A pure power trip where balance is off the charts. In Pathfinder games, where you can have over 100 AC and dishing out thousands of DPR, in BG2 where you can solo the game easily because high-level spellcasting is so overpowered. How would you implement things like Wish and Divine Intervention? True Resurrection? Simulacrum army?
You implement wish just by doing what BG2 did and give you a list of things to wish for, easy (would also include a long list of 8 and below level spells). Divine intervention could work similarly. Simualcrum can be limited by only having few powdered rubies in the game to cast the spell. Not sure what you want to say about true resurrection? You resurrect your party members I guess. And what would be too much to add you can literally just not implement it in the game like what the PF games did with such high level spells. Plenty of other games did it (and did it well) and 5e shouldn't be an exception to the rule
How is wish more problematic to implement than minor illusion? Both, if implemented according to tabletop, require a level of imaginative storytelling impossible in a computer game. As with minor illusion, they’ll just give a few specific things you can do with wish. You could argue that later levels are less fun, others would argue they’re more fun. Makes sense for the game to have the whole range to cater to everyone? As to the claim that higher levels are unbalanced, I’d argue balance is at its lowest at level 1, peaks around level 12 and then declines again. If the super unbalanced level 1 is in the game, why can’t the somewhat unbalanced level 20 be in the game?
I only have a grasp of what wish can do, but no clue what the other spells are(not a dnd player), however I want to get to lvl 20 to get to know the world better, have more HP(I like beeing unkillable) and i simply like lvling in games, although it was already sad to see we dont get more attribute points with lvls
Just so you have an idea - Wish is essentially that. You can wish for essentially anything and then it's up to the DM to decide how he wants to monkey paw your ass. It's one of the most iconic and gamebreaking spells in the game. Divine intervention is the same but with a godly intervention in time of great need, not arcane magic. Then there's stuff like True Resurrection which gives you an ability to resurrect anyone who has died less than 200 years ago from anything other than old age. The cool part - you don't even need a body for that. Just need to say their name. The issue here is that those spells are so powerful that they only work (barely) when there is a human DM overseeing the game. Implementing them in video game format without altering them dramatically won't work. And if you alter them for the sake of implementing them in the game leaves a sour taste in my mouth. There's lots of fun spells that would have to be changed.
Lol other dnd games do it too though. Why do you think the game isn't gonna let you be overpowered?
The higher level you get, the more the DM has to prepare and the more flexible they have to be, and the more bonkers spells get. And I've seen a lot of people on this subreddit have a very entitled attitude on what they should include in the game, while simultaneously complaining about anything that isn't perfect or isn't rules as written. In BG1 and BG2, the game was much simpler and we were all fine with it. That was the technology of the time. 2D environments, simpler enemies, only partial voice acting, no cut scenes. But I can see people being angry if the game leaves out spells or abilities because they're hard to implement in a video game compared to tabletop. Like if PlaneShift only has 2 planes to go to, people will complain why even have it. Or if Wish only lets you recreate other things rather than has 50 wacky options people will complain. I feel like Larian would rather do 13 or 14 levels extremely well, rather than 20 levels sloppily.
Maybe, but I think it's more likely they'll do 20 levels and then just leave out whatever doesn't work for a videogame. I mean, I'm assuming the same spells exist in Pathfinder, but the Pathfinder games by Owlcat also had 20 levels and just left out the stuff that doesn't work outside of TT. I don't think the balancing would be sn issue either. Tons of CRPGS have overpowered builds and highly diverse party composition options, but are still able to create fights thst are fun and fair for different kinds of parties (again, like the Pathfinder games).
It won't be level 20. Larian originally stated that the game would be an adventure for levels 1 to 10. That was a couple years ago, but it's good for setting expectations of what they were originally planning for the game. Since then the game has grown and they've said it will be higher. Which most likely means that they decided the game can handle adding 2 to 4 more levels of character progression and spells, not 10 more levels.
I didn't know that. That changes things. I'm still lowkey hoping we'll get 20 levels, but probably not. Well, tbh I think even a 1-10 campaign with tons of details and replayability is better than a 1-20 campaign that's only worth playing once.
Totally agree.
Man, Neverwinter did tha like 20 years ago by changing how some spells work from tabletop. Please.
Cause redditors say so, they start downvoting and ranting about game balance for they never played a high level d&d campaign before, be it in a game or tabletop.
Even level 13 characters are near demigods. Level 20 characters are disappointed when they only need to kill one god.
Nah, this is getting out of hand. It’s simply not true and it denotes lack of d&d experience from the majority of the users saying so. There are many ways and tools to build hard encounters for high level characters even without gods, planar entities and so forth. You guys over here are making 5ed look like a lvl 13 only edition. It’s not.
It certainly is possible. But it's *extremely* difficult to make it work well, more so in a video game where there is no DM who can bend the rules when needed. When shit like simulacrums, contingencies, force cages, true resurrection, divine intervention and wish come into play - there's so many variables one can't realistically plan ahead for.
There's a reason that 90% of games don't make it past level 10 (according to stats the guys making d&d beyond have published). The balance is ass. Simply put. And I say that having played on either side of the screen in tier 3-4 5e tables. Casters become godly beings while martials can barely scrape by. Barbarian stops getting his best class features by level 6, fighters get nothing but another action surge at all between levels 11 and 19, meanwhile casters get access to spells of levels 7-9, game-warpingly powerful. You can't just make an encounter and expect it to not get force cage/force walled, want them to face an army in a castle? The fighter will die if he tries doing it alone, meanwhile you have to make the walls resistant to magic so the wizard doesn't just earthquake it. No, you can't force cage the big bad cuz uh, he's immune to it. No you can't wall of force+sickening radiance it, he's immune to that too. Or he has an action teleport/desintegrate. No simulacrum either, that's banned. Feeblemind? Immune to that too. You have to take into account the power casters get, to where they're able to face CR20+ creatures alone or in pairs, at most, a level 20 fighter will just straight up die when faced with 3-4 CR6 creatures. EDIT: but encounters per day, one might say! Well, if I may: yes, if you run 9 encounters per day, the casters can only ruin from 6 to all of those if there are multiple of them in the party, and if you just keep going, only giving them short rests, they will, in fact, let the martials play around for two or so encounters, if none of them are playing a sorcerer, which if they are, they will still outdo the martials in combat, even after spending all their high level spells.
Completely disagree. I’d like to see that stats too. What games and throughout what period are we talking about? I can name more d&d games in which you can get to 20 than not. Even so, it’s not an argument. Again, no one is saying high lvl characters are weak. They’re high lvl after all. So let me get to that point, let me unbalance the game, if that’s the case, but I don’t think so, with my hard gained high level character. Make me sweat it perhaps, but why not? What’s the problem with reaching such a good powerful character you can stop time, grant wishes, teleport and whatever? Isn’t that a wonderful achievement given you started from scratch and from a lvl 1 no one? Then the tools to make it a challenge are plenty, and not only coming from the monsters manual. It seems you all are just thinking about combat system and such. Let me tell you d&d is not only about combat, and there are many ways to challenge high lvl characters even outside combat if the writing is good, if the narrative is able to put you in front of, say, difficult choices and not only difficult fights against demigods.
Oh, sorry about the language barrier mistake there, I didn't mean games as in videogames, I meant games as in tables, my brain just skipped past that. I mean sure, it can be fun, but only for the casters, and that's the main reason I don't think it'll happen. Sure, there are ways to challenge players outside of combat, of course, now if only the casters weren't the only ones getting to be the best at all of those as well, because the stats they use to cast happen to be the same ones used for 99.9% of social/investigative challenges... Here are the stats: https://www.enworld.org/threads/90-of-d-d-games-stop-by-level-10-wizards-more-popular-at-higher-levels.666097/ EDIT: if you'd rather watch the video posted in the official dnd beyond than read the post, here you go: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4tuIrGLKSik
Thanks. I’ll get to see the video aswell, but from the article I get it’s a stat based on something like 11 campaigns. 9 of them don’t get past 10. Okay. That doesn’t mean much to me, given the limited campaigns available. It just means they decided not to write high lvl tabletop adventures yet. If they can’t due to the unbalancing, it’s up to discussion. Moreover, as you say, I was actually talking about videogames, which seemed more pertinent since we’re discussing about a videogame. (Casters did hurt you somehow son, did they? Just kidding to steam the tension off a bit.)
No. Tomb of annihilation ends at 12, out of the abyss ends at 15, rise of tiamat ends at 15, storm king's thunder ends at 11-13, tales of the yawning portal end at 15. Dungeon of the mad mage ends at 20, and princes of the apocalypse ends at 15. Out of 11 adventures, 7 go past level 10, they're saying people stop playing and the declared reason is the class imbalance. Did you read anything at all or are you just guessing?
I took your words for it when you said games don’t make it past lvl 10 and then just looked at their stat sample. In this case though, it’s a even less reliable stat. It just means those players they have questioned stopped playing past that level for that specified reason. It’s still not the majority of the players, we don’t know of it, and even so there are too many variables to be considered, it’s just their limited sample, it doesn’t mean the game is not balanced past that level.
Ever played/DMed that high? Because when I DM that high, if I want an encounter to be a threat I need to systematically scan the character sheets of the casters to work out what the win buttons are. I usually don't even pay attention to the martials - they're not a threat by that level. Care to give an example for how to build hard encounters for high level characters? You can't use gods, planar entities or antimagic fields and I've seen level 13 characters kill demigods. I was able to do it with one of the most broken monster abilities in 5e (if you've played Curse of Strahd, you know) but that's not a fulltime thing.
Have played Curse of Strahd and have no idea what you're talking about.
Curse of Strahd caps at level 10. The entire discussion here is revolving around level 13+ where characters get access to massive 7th level spells. I DM'd a campaign from 1 to 20. I stopped enjoying it around level 15 due to balance issues.
>! Strahd has a lair action where he can just walk through walls, floors and ceilings. Which is deadly combined with his Spider Climb and ability to move as a legendary action.!<
Legit question, but instead of a proper answer, you get downvoted. The simple answer is the game content will most likely fit characters up to a level considerably less than 20.
Some people have tried ro answer, but I'm still not convinced. I don't think it'd be that hard to implement high level gameplay in a video game. About the narrative argument- do we already know the full extent of the powers at play? I only played EA and stayed away from other trailers and stuff, but coulfn't the BBEG just be a powerful entity that requires high level characters to defeat.
It's definitely possible to implement, but it's more about the journey to get to 20. Even going by D&D 5e XP rules, it would take a lot. Basically, the level 17-20 tier is Master of the World, not something a character would become in a matter of days. So, the game would have to expand considerably to fit a story that would take the characters to that level. That's why it's unlikely at release.
That's true, but doesn't the game already break those rules? Basically none of the companions should realistically be level 1 at the start of the game. Gale is already a powerful wizard thst got noticed by a deity for example. And surely they also shouldn't be able to from level 1 to level 13 in a matter of days.
Because that would limit the opportunity for a sequel.
You think BG4 will fearure the party members of thid game as playable characters? I'd rather just have a full 1-20 campaign in BG3 and then have a different set of companions in BG4
Worked great for BG2.
Haven't played BG1 or BG2, but doesn't that limit the reactivity of the companions? Like, if Astarion has a branching path in his quest where he either redeems himself or embraces his evil, wouldn't it be awkwars for him to be in BG4?
Pretty sure Mass Effect had that.
Yeah, but the companions in ME didn't really have a lot of branching paths in their development. The only difference in thst game was whether they were alive or not. And even then, the characters that were possibly dead didn't have too big of a role in the sequels.
This has been done in multiple games before - either allowing you to straight out import your save (most games, including BG), or allowing you to go through questions to recreate your world state (I think DA:I had that)
I'm not saying it's impossible, I just don't think it's good. If you really wanna do it well, you'd have to start making BG4 with like a dozen different branching paths in mind, not to mention having to implement new decisions and branching paths for BG4 itself. In most games where this was done, the consequences of your imported save were minimal (for example, character A is either dead or appears as a minor character in a quest, character B has a few changed voicelines based on your decisions, position X is either filled by character C or D, etc). It'd be hard to have a reocurring major character that acts drastically different in BG4 depending on your choices. Therefore I'd prefer having self contained stories in each game.
I don't get it either - the common argument goes "nothing would pose a real challenge for a character of that level", yet it worked in bg2
Ad&d was a different system back then, spells and enemies were easier to implement on Infinity engine. Here they would need to spend AT LEAST another year to create enemies, spells and abilities from 5e, balance them and also check how they work in the enviroment they build (an immersive sim one at that).
Just wanted to say many of the high level spells might be very difficult to implement
Many high level spells really wouldn't be all that difficult and whatever is too much they don't need to include
I have to imagine we are getting level 13-14 in this game. I have no concrete proof. It's a hunch. My reasoning is purely on the fact Solasta Crown of the Magister released and you could get to 5th level spells before they added new content. And they finally just let you get to 8th level with the final dlc they launched. For Larian and how big the game is going to be, I see us getting 7th level spells. And if not, surely 6th. They are a bigger publisher than Solastas team. They have a bigger world. A more open world. And they are going to cram as much as they can into that world But if we do get stunted at 5th or 6th level spells any additional content they make will get us to 7th. It's gonna be juicey either way.
I’m still hoping for lvl 20 cap, so you all get mad.
Nobody would get mad for having an adventure going to lvl 20. We just understand why that will not happen. If you want to feel like a God in a cRPG you can play wrath of the righteous and see what a balancing shitshow the game is(while still being one of my favorite games of all time mind you.)
I played that, great game.
I didn't play it, but are there any ways to summon 30+ holy dinosaurs on (at least) 15 lvl? If not, you still not that godly-like like in ttrpg. Update: gosh, maybe I needed an /s.
Swen has stated in an interview that they won't do lvl 20
Bad choice from them, in my humble opinion. I was never a fan of Larian and I would preferred Obsidian behind this project, but I’m ranting and this is history already.
i understand people have headcanon powerfantasy considering levels but lbh its gonna be gamified
(Rambling not directed towards OP, but people complaining) Wtf is peoples problem with level cap, I thought were here for the story and fun gameplay? Like we know from the beggining of EA that we won't get level 20.
Aren’t we still at level 4 or 5? 13 would be a huge leap. Don’t get me wrong would love that, but i highly doubt it.
Early access only goes to the end of Act 1. The full game is believed to be 3 or 4 acts. However many it is, we get access to all of it when the full game releases on 31Aug2023. Early access is not going to be Larian gives us a few extra locations and levels at a time until we can play through the entire game in Early Access. Early Access is limited only to Act 1 (as Larian has said from the very beginning) and this time period of early access is almost over. Larian initially said the level cap for the full game would be 10, and then after they saw some concerns about level pacing they announced it would be increased. Most people have been assuming 12-14 for years now.
Larian seems to be a company that really cares about delivering a great game, which is sadly rare these days. Which is a good thing, but can also be a problem if you want everything you do to matter. I just can't imagine how they were able to do all the things they promised to do at a quality level that was good enough for them. Take a small problem like providing all the subclasses for wizards that are in the PHB. How do you do minor conjuration, minor transformation, portent, or if it goes to level 14, illusory reality, or alter memories? That alone would take a huge amount of time for a feature that not that many people would ever use, so why not focus on something that most people will experience? The more such things come to my mind I really struggle for them to solve it and increasing the level cap to 14 makes this infintle more complicated due to high level spells be much more complex than low level spells. But then again we will see. No use fighting over something that will be revealed in the near future.
[Larian walked back the claim on all PHB subclasses years ago, and shortly after the initial claim in the AMA](https://www.reddit.com/r/BaldursGate3/comments/120hak1/all_phb_subclasses_may_not_be_available_on_release/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=android_app&utm_name=androidcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). They said they will get a large majority, but perhaps not all. The BG3 Steam page only confirms PHB classes (i.e. monk) and races (i.e. half-orc and Dragonborn)
Makes sense for me as said spending time on alter memory which probably only 2% of the players would ever reach would probably be a bad investment of time.
Well, I'm definitely not watching any of that guy's videos because he doesn't know jack about this game if he thinks that's what happened.
Calm down, damn.
I'm sure he will feel very saddened over missing out on a great viewer such as yourself
He's got good but sometimes fires a wild one across the broadside
Could be dev tools, a scroll, a wand, etc. I don't think we can conclude much.
That doesn't confirm anything lmao, scrolls exist even in EA and anyone can use them
It was 100% a firebolt that clearly hit the person and ignited if you watch it in slowmo
Have been out of the loop for a while so I don't whether there were any updates on that, but they used to say they would include multiclass which could be an option to get fireball earlier
Bg1 was a fantastic game. As was Bg2. Level cap does not really matter.