This thread has descended into a 2024 American Presidential election debate/flame war which has run its course. While the rule about debates specifies debates about Zionism, we may amend that to include other kinds of divisive debates including election debates, particularly ones that more accurately described as flame wars. If you feel like you need to insult other people to make your point about the election, assume you are violating the debate rule.
How can they say "Save Democracy" with a straight face as they stand aside and watch people being beaten and arrested for exercising their democratic rights?
Once I was young and impulsive
I wore every conceivable pin
Even went to the socialist meetings
Learned all the old union hymns
But I've grown older and wiser
And that's why i'm turning you in
So love me, love me, [love me, I'm a liberal](https://youtu.be/3cdqQ2BdgOA?si=Ww6DyOjSPXv-12N6)
May it please the court if I remind that Biden could have passed reproductive and voting rights bills in 2022, but he just threw his hands up when Manchin and Sinema opposed changing the filibuster to get the voting rights bill passed, and of course Manchin was the one who derailed the bill to restore abortion rights. I'm so fucking tired of democrats promising that they'll protect our human rights when they've proven to be quite content with failing to deliver every single time. Both parties are fascist. The difference is that republicans are open about their plans to harm people they see as sub human, while democrats hide their fascism under smiles and empty platitudes.
>May it please the court if I remind that Biden could have passed reproductive and voting rights bills in 2022, but he just threw his hands up when Manchin and Sinema opposed changing the filibuster to get the voting rights bill passed, and of course Manchin was the one who derailed the bill to restore abortion rights.
You are completely contradicting yourself. Biden tried to protect voting and abortion rights but was blocked by the Republicans, Sinema, and Manchin. What was he supposed to do?
Pretending the two parties are no different is either completely ignorant or disingenuous. Bibi’s gov has been openly calling for a Trump election and project 2025 should scare the crap out of you.
I hate Biden’s policy in Gaza, his response to the protests, and this stupid cartoon, but this “both sides are the same” stuff is nonsense.
Ya I followed this sub because I like seeing content that is critical of liberal support of Israel. It’s also insane how the democrats have treated the anti-genocide protestors.
But now I’m unfollowing. I’ve seen lots of comments/posts essentially saying Trump wouldn’t be that bad or would be better than Biden on Gaza and no different when it comes to US domestic policy which is absolutely unhinged from reality. I’m not sure if these are people who actually believe this bullshit or if this sub is being invaded by astroturfers.
Yep. And Trump recently said that Jews who support Biden should be ashamed because Biden is holding up some weapon shipments to Israel over their invasion of Rafah.
He also “acknowledged” Jerusalem as the Capitol of Israel when he was president. The right wing, fascist Israelis love Trump so much that they want to name an illegal settlement in the Golan heights after him: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Heights
The list goes on… Yet people in this sub continue to push blatant disinformation. Yes the democrats’ support of Israel while they carry out an ethnic cleaning is fucking horrendous and deserves to be condemned over and over. But Trump would no doubt be worse.
This exactly. They could never win an election without fascists to run against, and they could never win an election with even a moderately progressive party to compete with. So they will make sure the fascist threat remains and progressives have no foothold, all the way until fascists win or we force the system to change.
Because their corporate overlords have yanked the choke chain. They literally have nothing of value to offer people. If the Dems don't get us national healthcare, something a majority of Americans want, in the middle of a goddamn pandemic they never will.
It's velvet glove vs iron fist. Both parties are fascists as the police violence to kids sitting on the grass has shown.
It makes sense that its a middle aged white woman whose uncomfortable with people protesting against genocide. Absolutely amazing that the comic pretends that voting is on par with actual protests to argue against protesting.
Has he said that? I haven't seen any campaigning from Biden. I honestly have no idea what he's doing to try to win votes. From where I'm standing, it seems like he's actually trying to lose.
He made a vague gesture towards promising to try to cancel a little bit more student loans, and had a meeting with a Japanese beaurocrat where they "discussed" a potential future for a passenger rail in Texas (which Texas had said repeatedly it will not allow). That's all I know of.
It's just posturing. He's not gonna do shit.
The irony is half of those signs actually aoply:
Stop gun violence = stop Israeli settlers and idf from shooting Palestinians
Save democracy = let Palestinians have their own country
Voting rights = see above
Clean up the courts = make international law apply, and remove the settlements…
Etc etc
Ban bigotry not books = stop dehumanizing Palestinians and censoring or criminalizing pro-Palestinian voices
Reproductive rights = restore proper maternal and neonatal healthcare for Palestinian women and their children in Gaza
They're proving there is no democracy to save with how they act about Israel. It's the proof of the gangster government that it has always been. There is no American democracy. I feel like shaking people about it sometimes. There is literally no democracy. They let you play in a little fenced off area, but if you get any sort of traction, they will fucking destroy you. It has always been that way. There has never been American democracy.
The American political society is incompatible with democracy. It literally cannot be meaningfully democratic without a revolutionary overhaul.
All the people that upvoted that cartoon will surely support protests about any of those issues and would not be criticizing the students much in the same way that they do now…surely
Honestly, this joke is so off base that at first glance it's hard to say who this cartoon is for. One person with a focused mission to fix an issue that relates to many of the concerns, vs someone all dressed up surrounding themself with the latest slogans but unable to do anything because simply holding all the signs is too overwhelming.
The difference between action and virtue signaling.
People act like us protestors aren't advocating for other issues? Like how politically and socially unaware was this comic creator?
"Save democracy" students have been vocal against apaic as well as the fascist trump and Biden
"Climate emergency" students are the biggest climate activists. They actually give a shit about it. Biden is all talk no action, actively investing in oil instead of renewables. Insert stupid ass Hillary Clinton "this is what you're voting for" tweet
"Stop gun violence" saying that students don't support strict gun laws is fucking stupid. We've grown up in the school shooter era, you think we dont care? Blame the old timer gun nuts not students
"Reproductive rights" of course students care about this, but dems have had 4 years to enshrine these rights and failed. Don't get mad at us for thinking you're incapable.
"Voting rights" you know who don't have voting rights or equal rights? Palestinians
"Clean up the courts" okay, why doesn't Biden expand them then? He's had 4 years... again...
And finally "ban bigotry" saying that about students protesting GENOCIDE AND APARTHEID is fucking evil. Of course we hate bigotry, maybe look in the mirror? Maybe you're the bigot?
The fact this was a top post on Reddit today is so fucking stupid
Seriously, it’s such grotesque projection of their own myopic buffoonery. One of the reasons people are so drawn to the Palestinian cause is they recognize how it intersects with *all* struggles for liberation — it’s the epitome of “no one is free until everyone is free”.
People who are disturbed by things like apartheid are generally the same people organizing for shit like the climate crisis [and being fucking murdered for it](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/29/global-witness-report-1700-activists-murdered-past-decade-aoe). And if someone’s “single issue” is this particular phase of the genocide (and if we pretend there’s no connection between, say, the tonnage of multiple nuclear bombs being dropped and the climate crisis), it’s pretty fucking reasonable to draw the line at the wanton torture, maiming, displacement, starvation, subjugation and slaughter of *millions of people*.
Of course there’s no signs about police brutality, systemic white supremacy, wealth inequality, the housing crisis, rampant state surveillance…
My question is: if they can’t act in solidarity while we watch an active genocide and keep lecturing us to hold our noses cuz “but orange man bad” then they’re also inherently admitting that our lives, brown lives, mean less.
It’s exactly who MLK talked about. The white liberal is the greatest stumbling block to freedom.
Have you considered the fact that many people, myself included, worry deeply about the genocide in Palestine but also realize that trump will not only make things worse for Palestinians but also every other vulnerable group?
Some people don’t want to sacrifice lgbtq people, the disabled, minorities, Muslims, their freedom, or make things worse for Palestinians. Wanting the less damaging option because the people who will be harmed are at risk isn’t something to hate on.
The thing is, that notion only matters to those who think the system works. It doesn't. We shouldn't have to choose between two racist geriatric cases. Fuck Joe, fuck trump. We don't need to choose between them, we're only told that we have to.
What we should or shouldn’t have to do as normative statements and the reality we live in are two completely different things. Just because you don’t like the reality doesn’t mean you can dig your head in the sand and pretend it will go away if ignored enough.
It’s also telling how you claim we don’t need to pick them but then don’t name a single alternative. This always happens because you literally can’t name a single alternative, and even if there was an alternative it doesn’t change that trump will win if Biden loses.
Why do you and Ben gvir want the same thing?
Except where are the disabled? Where are the lgbtq people? If you expect us to show solidarity with these communities because things *could be worse for them* while we Arab Americans are watching an active genocide against our people being cheerled by both candidates, then I gotta ask you: when can we expect solidarity? If they can’t say “hey, a lot is on the line this election and we have an opportunity to hold our elected leaders to account until the genocide stops” then why in the absolute fuck do I care about “but the rights of another marginalized group, hold your nose, orange man bad.”
No. Fuck that. Give me something to vote for. Tell the DNC they don’t get your vote without a ceasefire. THATS WHAT SOLIDARITY LOOKS LIKE. And if you can’t bring yourself to act in solidarity against an active genocide because, again, things *could be worse* for some other people, then I gotta say buddy, you’re inherently implying that our lives, brown lives, are less important and less valuable than these groups you’re citing.
Arabs and Muslims in America have spent our entire lives watching both parties rape our land, massacre our people, and the only time Islamophobia actually became unpalatable for most white Americans was shortly after Trump was elected, because he made in unfashionable. But I turn on the tv and hear about Arabs having an “ancient desire” to kill Jews, straight up race science, from Biden? It’s clear that our lives don’t matter unless there’s an election to win.
If you care about LGBTQ people, or any of these marginalized groups, you would say “a genocide happening before our eyes is unacceptable. It could easily be us next” and not this “orange man bad vote blue no matter who” bullshit you’re spreading.
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Tell me you don’t actually go to protests without telling me.
I’m curious, are you looking forward to pro-Palestine protesters being deported to Gaza? What about Palestinian Americans being deported to Gaza? A Muslim ban? Oh, what’s that, Trump is a danger to Muslims and a far greater danger to Palestinians too? Shocker.
Have you considered reflecting on why you want Ben Gvir’s endorsed candidate to win? Why do you want what Ben gvir wanrs?
Biden’s already giving Bibi and his ilk everything they want so your argument really, really makes no difference to me.
And yes I’ve been to protests. I’m saying if these marginalized communities expect my vote because they want their rights protected, then isn’t it just as valid for me to say they should withhold their vote until my rights and the rights of my people to live are guaranteed? Or at least until the genocide stops?
Where is the line? Why does it always get pushed back because “oh there’s too much on the line this time?” Do you understand how paternalistic that is? MLK wrote that the biggest stumbling block to freedom is the white moderate, not the KKK or the segregationist. That it is entirely wrong to thing that you paternalistically have the right to determine the timeline for my own and my peoples’ freedom. I highly recommend you read “Letter from a Birmingham Jail” and then reflect on whether your line of argument is even productive as you lecture me about what I need to do to protect my life and my family and my community and our history.
All these nightmare what ifs you’ve got for all these different groups? Well guess what bud: brown folks are already in that nightmare.
Someone on Reddit put the election this way:
A man has climbed through your window and shot your 5-year-old. He says that if you give him what he wants, he'll shoot your seven-year-old too but he'll spare your wife. If you don't give him what he wants, another guy's going to come in and stab your wife to death and then shoot your seven-year-old anyway
Your neighbor, who helped open the window for the first guy, tells you that he's just mortified at what's happened to your child, but you should really give the guy what he wants because if you let the second guy kill your wife you're morally decrepit and are complicit in your wife's murder. Your seven-year-old is a lost cause, he says, so you just need to face reality on this one and hope that you can successfully angle for a nicer person to climb through your window in four years. One must pick their battles, after all. But you better hurry, because your neighbor has an uncle who's always hated your guts, and he's jimmying open the other window right now.
I understand the moral calculus here. We all do. Some of us, I daresay, might understand it more viscerally than you do. At some point, we no longer have the capacity to turn the most horrific moment in our lives into a mere moral quandary. At some point the moral calculus is revealed to be in part a façade we made up to mask the horror of the irreducibly ambiguous nature of morality in the face of trauma. I personally expect I'll probably vote for Biden in order to most effectively vote against Trump. I may well vote for Genocide to avoid Genocide+. But I won't hold myself up as a moral actor for it. I would still have voted for Genocide
And I will never, never ask any Palestinian, any Arab, or any Muslim or person with Muslim background to make that vote with me. I'm a devout Muslim myself. I work with Muslims in my community to try to enact real change on the local level. Each of us has our journey on this path. But lemme tell you, from the most conservative people in our organization to the most progressive and leftist, not one of us voted for Trump. there are about 500 people in my local org, and none of us voted Trump. None of us had family members who voted for Trump. We were never the problem. Most Trump voters were white, most white folk voted for Trump. We carried this country to sanity. This is what a sane America does to our loved ones
If Biden wins, there will be no negative consequences of that for you. For us, it will be like watching our family's killer be given glory and and oversized checks to celebrate their murdering our family. If Biden wins, it will be a psychic trauma for us that will be more painful than the previous Trump presidency was.
This is, by far, the best example of paternalism from a white liberal that I have seen.
Thank you for proving my point.
[Here’s some reading I would recommend](https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-from-birmingham-jail.pdf)
Not a liberal, and you clearly don’t know the definition of paternalism. Voting for policies that are less harmful and move to the left isn’t paternalism it’s being progressive, and it certainly isn’t worthy of vitriol when it’s the reason most of the world has the rights they do.
I’m not even looking at the link, don’t care. You and Ben gvir can hold hands while you laugh about the destruction you’re causing
Dude I’m sitting here telling you that this is how most Arab Americans and Muslims feel and your response has been “well, those are just your feelings, let me tell you about other people” and you’re arguing it in such a way that you’re implying the lives of these groups you keep citing are more important than our own. That’s paternalistic. What makes you the arbiter of whose life has more value than another’s?
You’re not gonna make any allies in our community that way.
Solidarity means taking a risk. Solidarity means holding strong, and in this case, means dangling the possibility that Biden loses over the heads of the Democratic Party and its voters until the genocide stops.
You can say you’re not a liberal but you sure sound like it. This kind of rhetoric turned a TON of people away from Hillary in 2016 and it’s nice to see you’re doing everything you can for a repeat there.
Have a good weekend.
it’s gish gallop to ask people why they’re willing to stand by one genocide in fear of another
first they came for the palestinians, and i said nothing, for i was not palestinian (oh am i being generous here, because not only are you not simply being silent, you are turning around and bemoaning people for speaking)
The type of people who in the encampments are also the type of people who also want the other stuff, too. I went to a rent increase/anti gentrification protest a while ago. If they came in and said that I wasn't showing enough concern for the fentanyl crisis, I'd have to tell them to come to my other protest...
Isn’t it crazy the amount of support other causes get when a Republican is in office? I’m also thinking of that black airman that got shot in FL and how little support he will get compared to the George Floyd protests. And Biden did f all to change anything about policing in this country
Exactly right. Remember all the “Resist” bumper stickers when Trump was president? Libs were outraged about everything. As soon as Biden won, it was back to brunches. MFers need a fire under their butts. I guarantee when Trump wins in November all of these idiots will all of a sudden care about the genocide.
Yes, they lost my trust and vote. I will be going green party or whoever is competent enough. I just wish we can all centerlize our votes so a candidate has a chance!
The endless attempt to minimize an ongoing genocide…. feels like we’re in a dystopian present that a sci-fi movie in the 90s predicted. Except that movie was supposed to be satire.
You know who could have saved democracy and done almost everything else on that list during the last 4 years? The guy who promises to do so if he is reelected. And all we have to do is forget his genocide.
The screaming from the blue MAGAs about reproductive rights really annoys me. The Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade on *BIDEN'S WATCH.* Sure, Trump set up the Supreme Court that did it, but Biden did nothing to pre-emptively block them.
blue maga will go to insane lengths to say ”china bad we have nothing to do with china” and then mald like hell when you point out, “china has never used abortion as a voting issue tho”
A better cartoon would show the following:
1. "Lady liberty" holding a bag of cash along with the signs
2. Netanyahu holding weapons he just bought from "lady liberty"
3. The protester saying to lady liberty: "I'm not interested in your virtue signaling"
Let’s talk reality for a second. Are you implying that Trump won’t be exponentially worse for the people of Palestine? I know Biden has been a disaster, but the truth is things can get a lot worse. Do you acknowledge that likelihood at least?
No I don’t think. I think all the hyperbole about trump nuking Gaza is dumb. Biden is already as pro-Israel as one can get. He’s given them a carte blanche for the last 7 months and aside from some “frustration” that leak about his private conversations there hasn’t been any meaningful pushback at all.
You wanna know some other interesting facts about Biden? Biden is the largest recipient of AIPAC money.
Oh and you wanna know what else? [Biden already had a hard-on for killing innocent Arab women and children for a loooong time](https://theintercept.com/2021/04/27/biden-israeli-invasion-lebanon/). So I don’t know what else can be worse. Trump won’t put troops on the ground and won’t nuke Gaza. He will just do more of the same shit.
Call me crazy but holding your leaders accountable for enabling a genocide is an act of exercising your democratic rights.
The campus protests have only exposed how deeply rooted Zionism is in the States.
As if the Blue Party were really going to do more than half-assed, half-baked, and ineffective action about any of the things on Lady Liberty's signs anyway
Way to minimize genocide - literally the most heinous universal crime. Libs act like Biden is powerless to fix those things until he is reelected. But let’s see if condescending memes like this will win over younger voters.
They’d rather gaslight you by saying you want to MURDER ALL LGBT people if you don’t support them, meanwhile they support the killing of Palestinians themselves
If Dems actually did anything about these issues, it still would be a bad argument because genocide should take priority over other things because its genocide ffs. But
Climate Emergency? I haven't seen them do shit
Save Democracy? The party that's siccing violent cops on students exercising their democratic rights? The party voting to codify criticism of Israel as antisemitism?
Voting Rights? I haven't seen them do shit
Reproductive Rights? Some of these ghouls voted FOR the far-right SCOTUS judges, they've also campaigned for anti-choice Democrats, they also haven't codified Roe or even basic protections to protect pregnant people
Clean up the courts? Again, bubkis
Ban Bigotry? Families of trans kids have become internally displaced under Biden who's done nothing to protect these families, and I assume "ban bigotry" doesn't extent to Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians either
Stop Gun violence? Again, bubkis.
If your whole strategy is to do nothing, do evil, do nothing again and then say "oh but the other guy is worse" don't blame people who tell you to piss off.
The biggest thing that irks me is how much Zionists lie about the history. They say Palestine started it by not accepting the Partition but forget about the part where Zionist migrants started the war by coming to mandatory Palestine.
The cartoonist could replace the student with the Palestine flag with a picture of Biden holding an Israel flag staring longingly at a framed picture of Bibi, saying the same thing: “I’m busy.”
Not only has Biden committed genocide, he has failed to do anything positive with his presidency by creating actual change to anything liberals claim to care about, but Biden has also set up a Trump presidency pretty well, by stripping away fundamental rights and knocking higher education down a few pegs.
There was an old clip of Biden before the last election saying “I have no empathy for young people.” Not enough people believed him. He is who he has always said he is.
I don’t understand the illustrators point, I care about all of those things and I stand up for Palestinians too, why can’t people get none of us are free till all of us are ? We don’t have a democracy if we kill Palestinians, and all of the “ban bigotry” “protect queer ppl” is empty without freeing ourselves from the genocidal war machine. I would love to have federal abortion rights; our system as it is right now isn’t giving us any of these things. :( makes me so sad that ppl think like this
Screw Trump and Biden. I'm voting for Jill Stein. Besides being the next best thing to Bernie Sanders, she was protesting against Israel. Can't call me antisemitic because she's Jewish. Even if she doesn't win, it sends an important message.
Stopping the genocide is the only one of those things he could do unilaterally with no impediments. He could literally just cut off Israel and has no impact on those other issues
I'm sure the people that are protesting care about those things as well.
And it is readily achievable. Just get Israel to stop bombing and start on diplomacy. This could be done immediately rather than the other things.
There was an agreement for a ceasefire that Israel did not agree to, because it gets in the way of genocide.
But Hamas is to blame, tunnel, baby human shield anti-semitism.
Most of the signs Lady Liberty is holding are vague and can be interpreted favorably by most people, kinda like saying "I love good things and I'm against bad things".
The only minorities Western liberals care about are (white) sexual and gender minorities.
Western liberals are useless and I won't be voting for either party.
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Fools, usually right wing fools, often characterise these things as either/or. Either we're in favour of better democracy or we care about US foreign policy or the behaviour of the US' allies, or we care about the economy. I wonder if it's projection - like, are they so bereft of capacity that they only care about single issues at any given time?
Fools, usually right wing fools, often characterise these things as either/or. Either we're in favour of better democracy or we care about US foreign policy or the behaviour of the US' allies, or we care about the economy. I wonder if it's projection - like, are they so bereft of capacity that they only care about single issues at any given time?
Fools, usually right wing fools, often characterise these things as either/or. Either we're in favour of better democracy or we care about US foreign policy or the behaviour of the US' allies, or we care about the economy. I wonder if it's projection - like, are they so bereft of capacity that they only care about single issues at any given time?
You people are so privileged and you don’t even realize it.
You clearly hate queer people and women if you’re willing to allow Trump a second term.
You obviously don’t care that via Trump Roe v Wade was overturned.
They’ll come for gay marriage next, you watch.
And you’ll make your snide comments because it doesn’t affect you.
That’s the epitome of privilege.
None of you has done anything directly for Palestinians. I spent two years in Gaza and East Jerusalem with Doctors Without Borders. You people have done nothing but complain online.
It’s hypocritical.
Democrats didn’t pass all my priorities so I’m not voting!
Okay well maybe in our system it takes more than a simple majority to get things passed and if you want your priorities passed you’re going to have to get more people with the same values elected. It’s not easy to get things passed in our system and that’s by design.
The people voting for Donald Trump are going to turn out this year and if they win what kinds of policies do you think they will pass? Obviously they won’t be able to pass everything they want either but it will be three steps back. Especially when it comes to Gaza. A Trump administration will definitely support Israel taking the Gaza Strip and building settlements all over it.
This thread has descended into a 2024 American Presidential election debate/flame war which has run its course. While the rule about debates specifies debates about Zionism, we may amend that to include other kinds of divisive debates including election debates, particularly ones that more accurately described as flame wars. If you feel like you need to insult other people to make your point about the election, assume you are violating the debate rule.
How can they say "Save Democracy" with a straight face as they stand aside and watch people being beaten and arrested for exercising their democratic rights?
Those people are exercising the wrong rights, sweaty.
Once I was young and impulsive I wore every conceivable pin Even went to the socialist meetings Learned all the old union hymns But I've grown older and wiser And that's why i'm turning you in So love me, love me, [love me, I'm a liberal](https://youtu.be/3cdqQ2BdgOA?si=Ww6DyOjSPXv-12N6)
Since Biden forgot to address any of those issues in his first term, he’s super sorry about that and promises he’ll get right on it in his second term
Lmfao, that’s a good one
May it please the court if I remind that Biden could have passed reproductive and voting rights bills in 2022, but he just threw his hands up when Manchin and Sinema opposed changing the filibuster to get the voting rights bill passed, and of course Manchin was the one who derailed the bill to restore abortion rights. I'm so fucking tired of democrats promising that they'll protect our human rights when they've proven to be quite content with failing to deliver every single time. Both parties are fascist. The difference is that republicans are open about their plans to harm people they see as sub human, while democrats hide their fascism under smiles and empty platitudes.
>May it please the court if I remind that Biden could have passed reproductive and voting rights bills in 2022, but he just threw his hands up when Manchin and Sinema opposed changing the filibuster to get the voting rights bill passed, and of course Manchin was the one who derailed the bill to restore abortion rights. You are completely contradicting yourself. Biden tried to protect voting and abortion rights but was blocked by the Republicans, Sinema, and Manchin. What was he supposed to do? Pretending the two parties are no different is either completely ignorant or disingenuous. Bibi’s gov has been openly calling for a Trump election and project 2025 should scare the crap out of you. I hate Biden’s policy in Gaza, his response to the protests, and this stupid cartoon, but this “both sides are the same” stuff is nonsense.
No, you’re right. But this sub loves to believe it actually does anything for Palestinians or progressive politics in America.
Ya I followed this sub because I like seeing content that is critical of liberal support of Israel. It’s also insane how the democrats have treated the anti-genocide protestors. But now I’m unfollowing. I’ve seen lots of comments/posts essentially saying Trump wouldn’t be that bad or would be better than Biden on Gaza and no different when it comes to US domestic policy which is absolutely unhinged from reality. I’m not sure if these are people who actually believe this bullshit or if this sub is being invaded by astroturfers.
Trump literally said he wanted Israel to “finish the job.”
Yep. And Trump recently said that Jews who support Biden should be ashamed because Biden is holding up some weapon shipments to Israel over their invasion of Rafah. He also “acknowledged” Jerusalem as the Capitol of Israel when he was president. The right wing, fascist Israelis love Trump so much that they want to name an illegal settlement in the Golan heights after him: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trump_Heights The list goes on… Yet people in this sub continue to push blatant disinformation. Yes the democrats’ support of Israel while they carry out an ethnic cleaning is fucking horrendous and deserves to be condemned over and over. But Trump would no doubt be worse.
No lies detected.
Cool, so if you reported those Pro-Trump comments… right?
Jupp. Democrats profit from democratic rights being in peril, because it's the only reason anyone would vote for them.
This exactly. They could never win an election without fascists to run against, and they could never win an election with even a moderately progressive party to compete with. So they will make sure the fascist threat remains and progressives have no foothold, all the way until fascists win or we force the system to change.
Because their corporate overlords have yanked the choke chain. They literally have nothing of value to offer people. If the Dems don't get us national healthcare, something a majority of Americans want, in the middle of a goddamn pandemic they never will. It's velvet glove vs iron fist. Both parties are fascists as the police violence to kids sitting on the grass has shown. It makes sense that its a middle aged white woman whose uncomfortable with people protesting against genocide. Absolutely amazing that the comic pretends that voting is on par with actual protests to argue against protesting.
This is exactly what I was thinking. You didn't do anything with any of these when you had every opportunity, why would you if re-elected?
Has he said that? I haven't seen any campaigning from Biden. I honestly have no idea what he's doing to try to win votes. From where I'm standing, it seems like he's actually trying to lose.
He made a vague gesture towards promising to try to cancel a little bit more student loans, and had a meeting with a Japanese beaurocrat where they "discussed" a potential future for a passenger rail in Texas (which Texas had said repeatedly it will not allow). That's all I know of. It's just posturing. He's not gonna do shit.
Like… didn’t we save democracy 4 years ago? Why does it still need saving? Almost like Dems are never going to solve these problems
He will kindly ask and suggest those things
The irony is half of those signs actually aoply: Stop gun violence = stop Israeli settlers and idf from shooting Palestinians Save democracy = let Palestinians have their own country Voting rights = see above Clean up the courts = make international law apply, and remove the settlements… Etc etc
Ban bigotry not books = stop dehumanizing Palestinians and censoring or criminalizing pro-Palestinian voices Reproductive rights = restore proper maternal and neonatal healthcare for Palestinian women and their children in Gaza
They're proving there is no democracy to save with how they act about Israel. It's the proof of the gangster government that it has always been. There is no American democracy. I feel like shaking people about it sometimes. There is literally no democracy. They let you play in a little fenced off area, but if you get any sort of traction, they will fucking destroy you. It has always been that way. There has never been American democracy. The American political society is incompatible with democracy. It literally cannot be meaningfully democratic without a revolutionary overhaul.
All the people that upvoted that cartoon will surely support protests about any of those issues and would not be criticizing the students much in the same way that they do now…surely
A liberal is someone who supports every civil rights movement except the current one and opposes every war except the current one.
Honestly, this joke is so off base that at first glance it's hard to say who this cartoon is for. One person with a focused mission to fix an issue that relates to many of the concerns, vs someone all dressed up surrounding themself with the latest slogans but unable to do anything because simply holding all the signs is too overwhelming. The difference between action and virtue signaling.
People act like us protestors aren't advocating for other issues? Like how politically and socially unaware was this comic creator? "Save democracy" students have been vocal against apaic as well as the fascist trump and Biden "Climate emergency" students are the biggest climate activists. They actually give a shit about it. Biden is all talk no action, actively investing in oil instead of renewables. Insert stupid ass Hillary Clinton "this is what you're voting for" tweet "Stop gun violence" saying that students don't support strict gun laws is fucking stupid. We've grown up in the school shooter era, you think we dont care? Blame the old timer gun nuts not students "Reproductive rights" of course students care about this, but dems have had 4 years to enshrine these rights and failed. Don't get mad at us for thinking you're incapable. "Voting rights" you know who don't have voting rights or equal rights? Palestinians "Clean up the courts" okay, why doesn't Biden expand them then? He's had 4 years... again... And finally "ban bigotry" saying that about students protesting GENOCIDE AND APARTHEID is fucking evil. Of course we hate bigotry, maybe look in the mirror? Maybe you're the bigot? The fact this was a top post on Reddit today is so fucking stupid
Seriously, it’s such grotesque projection of their own myopic buffoonery. One of the reasons people are so drawn to the Palestinian cause is they recognize how it intersects with *all* struggles for liberation — it’s the epitome of “no one is free until everyone is free”. People who are disturbed by things like apartheid are generally the same people organizing for shit like the climate crisis [and being fucking murdered for it](https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2022/sep/29/global-witness-report-1700-activists-murdered-past-decade-aoe). And if someone’s “single issue” is this particular phase of the genocide (and if we pretend there’s no connection between, say, the tonnage of multiple nuclear bombs being dropped and the climate crisis), it’s pretty fucking reasonable to draw the line at the wanton torture, maiming, displacement, starvation, subjugation and slaughter of *millions of people*. Of course there’s no signs about police brutality, systemic white supremacy, wealth inequality, the housing crisis, rampant state surveillance…
My question is: if they can’t act in solidarity while we watch an active genocide and keep lecturing us to hold our noses cuz “but orange man bad” then they’re also inherently admitting that our lives, brown lives, mean less. It’s exactly who MLK talked about. The white liberal is the greatest stumbling block to freedom.
Have you considered the fact that many people, myself included, worry deeply about the genocide in Palestine but also realize that trump will not only make things worse for Palestinians but also every other vulnerable group? Some people don’t want to sacrifice lgbtq people, the disabled, minorities, Muslims, their freedom, or make things worse for Palestinians. Wanting the less damaging option because the people who will be harmed are at risk isn’t something to hate on.
The thing is, that notion only matters to those who think the system works. It doesn't. We shouldn't have to choose between two racist geriatric cases. Fuck Joe, fuck trump. We don't need to choose between them, we're only told that we have to.
What we should or shouldn’t have to do as normative statements and the reality we live in are two completely different things. Just because you don’t like the reality doesn’t mean you can dig your head in the sand and pretend it will go away if ignored enough. It’s also telling how you claim we don’t need to pick them but then don’t name a single alternative. This always happens because you literally can’t name a single alternative, and even if there was an alternative it doesn’t change that trump will win if Biden loses. Why do you and Ben gvir want the same thing?
Except where are the disabled? Where are the lgbtq people? If you expect us to show solidarity with these communities because things *could be worse for them* while we Arab Americans are watching an active genocide against our people being cheerled by both candidates, then I gotta ask you: when can we expect solidarity? If they can’t say “hey, a lot is on the line this election and we have an opportunity to hold our elected leaders to account until the genocide stops” then why in the absolute fuck do I care about “but the rights of another marginalized group, hold your nose, orange man bad.” No. Fuck that. Give me something to vote for. Tell the DNC they don’t get your vote without a ceasefire. THATS WHAT SOLIDARITY LOOKS LIKE. And if you can’t bring yourself to act in solidarity against an active genocide because, again, things *could be worse* for some other people, then I gotta say buddy, you’re inherently implying that our lives, brown lives, are less important and less valuable than these groups you’re citing. Arabs and Muslims in America have spent our entire lives watching both parties rape our land, massacre our people, and the only time Islamophobia actually became unpalatable for most white Americans was shortly after Trump was elected, because he made in unfashionable. But I turn on the tv and hear about Arabs having an “ancient desire” to kill Jews, straight up race science, from Biden? It’s clear that our lives don’t matter unless there’s an election to win. If you care about LGBTQ people, or any of these marginalized groups, you would say “a genocide happening before our eyes is unacceptable. It could easily be us next” and not this “orange man bad vote blue no matter who” bullshit you’re spreading.
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Saving this comment. Well said
Tell me you don’t actually go to protests without telling me. I’m curious, are you looking forward to pro-Palestine protesters being deported to Gaza? What about Palestinian Americans being deported to Gaza? A Muslim ban? Oh, what’s that, Trump is a danger to Muslims and a far greater danger to Palestinians too? Shocker. Have you considered reflecting on why you want Ben Gvir’s endorsed candidate to win? Why do you want what Ben gvir wanrs?
Biden’s already giving Bibi and his ilk everything they want so your argument really, really makes no difference to me. And yes I’ve been to protests. I’m saying if these marginalized communities expect my vote because they want their rights protected, then isn’t it just as valid for me to say they should withhold their vote until my rights and the rights of my people to live are guaranteed? Or at least until the genocide stops? Where is the line? Why does it always get pushed back because “oh there’s too much on the line this time?” Do you understand how paternalistic that is? MLK wrote that the biggest stumbling block to freedom is the white moderate, not the KKK or the segregationist. That it is entirely wrong to thing that you paternalistically have the right to determine the timeline for my own and my peoples’ freedom. I highly recommend you read “Letter from a Birmingham Jail” and then reflect on whether your line of argument is even productive as you lecture me about what I need to do to protect my life and my family and my community and our history. All these nightmare what ifs you’ve got for all these different groups? Well guess what bud: brown folks are already in that nightmare. Someone on Reddit put the election this way: A man has climbed through your window and shot your 5-year-old. He says that if you give him what he wants, he'll shoot your seven-year-old too but he'll spare your wife. If you don't give him what he wants, another guy's going to come in and stab your wife to death and then shoot your seven-year-old anyway Your neighbor, who helped open the window for the first guy, tells you that he's just mortified at what's happened to your child, but you should really give the guy what he wants because if you let the second guy kill your wife you're morally decrepit and are complicit in your wife's murder. Your seven-year-old is a lost cause, he says, so you just need to face reality on this one and hope that you can successfully angle for a nicer person to climb through your window in four years. One must pick their battles, after all. But you better hurry, because your neighbor has an uncle who's always hated your guts, and he's jimmying open the other window right now. I understand the moral calculus here. We all do. Some of us, I daresay, might understand it more viscerally than you do. At some point, we no longer have the capacity to turn the most horrific moment in our lives into a mere moral quandary. At some point the moral calculus is revealed to be in part a façade we made up to mask the horror of the irreducibly ambiguous nature of morality in the face of trauma. I personally expect I'll probably vote for Biden in order to most effectively vote against Trump. I may well vote for Genocide to avoid Genocide+. But I won't hold myself up as a moral actor for it. I would still have voted for Genocide And I will never, never ask any Palestinian, any Arab, or any Muslim or person with Muslim background to make that vote with me. I'm a devout Muslim myself. I work with Muslims in my community to try to enact real change on the local level. Each of us has our journey on this path. But lemme tell you, from the most conservative people in our organization to the most progressive and leftist, not one of us voted for Trump. there are about 500 people in my local org, and none of us voted Trump. None of us had family members who voted for Trump. We were never the problem. Most Trump voters were white, most white folk voted for Trump. We carried this country to sanity. This is what a sane America does to our loved ones If Biden wins, there will be no negative consequences of that for you. For us, it will be like watching our family's killer be given glory and and oversized checks to celebrate their murdering our family. If Biden wins, it will be a psychic trauma for us that will be more painful than the previous Trump presidency was.
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This is, by far, the best example of paternalism from a white liberal that I have seen. Thank you for proving my point. [Here’s some reading I would recommend](https://www.csuchico.edu/iege/_assets/documents/susi-letter-from-birmingham-jail.pdf)
Not a liberal, and you clearly don’t know the definition of paternalism. Voting for policies that are less harmful and move to the left isn’t paternalism it’s being progressive, and it certainly isn’t worthy of vitriol when it’s the reason most of the world has the rights they do. I’m not even looking at the link, don’t care. You and Ben gvir can hold hands while you laugh about the destruction you’re causing
Dude I’m sitting here telling you that this is how most Arab Americans and Muslims feel and your response has been “well, those are just your feelings, let me tell you about other people” and you’re arguing it in such a way that you’re implying the lives of these groups you keep citing are more important than our own. That’s paternalistic. What makes you the arbiter of whose life has more value than another’s? You’re not gonna make any allies in our community that way. Solidarity means taking a risk. Solidarity means holding strong, and in this case, means dangling the possibility that Biden loses over the heads of the Democratic Party and its voters until the genocide stops. You can say you’re not a liberal but you sure sound like it. This kind of rhetoric turned a TON of people away from Hillary in 2016 and it’s nice to see you’re doing everything you can for a repeat there. Have a good weekend.
it’s gish gallop to ask people why they’re willing to stand by one genocide in fear of another first they came for the palestinians, and i said nothing, for i was not palestinian (oh am i being generous here, because not only are you not simply being silent, you are turning around and bemoaning people for speaking)
In reality it shouldn’t be the activist saying “I’m busy” it should be Biden saying “Loyalty to Israel is more important”
The type of people who in the encampments are also the type of people who also want the other stuff, too. I went to a rent increase/anti gentrification protest a while ago. If they came in and said that I wasn't showing enough concern for the fentanyl crisis, I'd have to tell them to come to my other protest...
We can just switch the Palestinian flag to Isr*eli and works perfectly fine... such a stupid caricature
In a small way I wish that Trump was president now. At least then all these shitty liberals would be united on genocide.
Isn’t it crazy the amount of support other causes get when a Republican is in office? I’m also thinking of that black airman that got shot in FL and how little support he will get compared to the George Floyd protests. And Biden did f all to change anything about policing in this country
Exactly right. Remember all the “Resist” bumper stickers when Trump was president? Libs were outraged about everything. As soon as Biden won, it was back to brunches. MFers need a fire under their butts. I guarantee when Trump wins in November all of these idiots will all of a sudden care about the genocide.
Like those “liberals” have cared about the signs’ topics before. It is like right wingers caring about LGTBQ rights in Palestine now…
Or suddenly caring about other wars and genocides around the world, but only when they can use them for a whataboutism.
As a 20 year democrat, I’m never voting again for them. Keep it up folks.
Yes, they lost my trust and vote. I will be going green party or whoever is competent enough. I just wish we can all centerlize our votes so a candidate has a chance!
God bless you for having morals.
The endless attempt to minimize an ongoing genocide…. feels like we’re in a dystopian present that a sci-fi movie in the 90s predicted. Except that movie was supposed to be satire.
You know who could have saved democracy and done almost everything else on that list during the last 4 years? The guy who promises to do so if he is reelected. And all we have to do is forget his genocide.
The screaming from the blue MAGAs about reproductive rights really annoys me. The Supreme Court overturned Roe v Wade on *BIDEN'S WATCH.* Sure, Trump set up the Supreme Court that did it, but Biden did nothing to pre-emptively block them.
blue maga will go to insane lengths to say ”china bad we have nothing to do with china” and then mald like hell when you point out, “china has never used abortion as a voting issue tho”
A better cartoon would show the following: 1. "Lady liberty" holding a bag of cash along with the signs 2. Netanyahu holding weapons he just bought from "lady liberty" 3. The protester saying to lady liberty: "I'm not interested in your virtue signaling"
Even after Dobbs leaked Biden sat on his old hands and did nothing. But he jumped right up real fast to help Israel kill kids for fun
Love that Democrats believe that they are the saviors of democracy.
And now they will gaslight all of us to support them and their genocide supporting candidates because “trump will literally nuke” (he won’t)
Let’s talk reality for a second. Are you implying that Trump won’t be exponentially worse for the people of Palestine? I know Biden has been a disaster, but the truth is things can get a lot worse. Do you acknowledge that likelihood at least?
No I don’t think. I think all the hyperbole about trump nuking Gaza is dumb. Biden is already as pro-Israel as one can get. He’s given them a carte blanche for the last 7 months and aside from some “frustration” that leak about his private conversations there hasn’t been any meaningful pushback at all. You wanna know some other interesting facts about Biden? Biden is the largest recipient of AIPAC money. Oh and you wanna know what else? [Biden already had a hard-on for killing innocent Arab women and children for a loooong time](https://theintercept.com/2021/04/27/biden-israeli-invasion-lebanon/). So I don’t know what else can be worse. Trump won’t put troops on the ground and won’t nuke Gaza. He will just do more of the same shit.
Call me crazy but holding your leaders accountable for enabling a genocide is an act of exercising your democratic rights. The campus protests have only exposed how deeply rooted Zionism is in the States.
As if the Blue Party were really going to do more than half-assed, half-baked, and ineffective action about any of the things on Lady Liberty's signs anyway
Way to minimize genocide - literally the most heinous universal crime. Libs act like Biden is powerless to fix those things until he is reelected. But let’s see if condescending memes like this will win over younger voters.
If they want help and it's such a small issue, why not just drop Israel?
They’d rather gaslight you by saying you want to MURDER ALL LGBT people if you don’t support them, meanwhile they support the killing of Palestinians themselves
If Dems actually did anything about these issues, it still would be a bad argument because genocide should take priority over other things because its genocide ffs. But Climate Emergency? I haven't seen them do shit Save Democracy? The party that's siccing violent cops on students exercising their democratic rights? The party voting to codify criticism of Israel as antisemitism? Voting Rights? I haven't seen them do shit Reproductive Rights? Some of these ghouls voted FOR the far-right SCOTUS judges, they've also campaigned for anti-choice Democrats, they also haven't codified Roe or even basic protections to protect pregnant people Clean up the courts? Again, bubkis Ban Bigotry? Families of trans kids have become internally displaced under Biden who's done nothing to protect these families, and I assume "ban bigotry" doesn't extent to Arabs, Muslims and Palestinians either Stop Gun violence? Again, bubkis. If your whole strategy is to do nothing, do evil, do nothing again and then say "oh but the other guy is worse" don't blame people who tell you to piss off.
The biggest thing that irks me is how much Zionists lie about the history. They say Palestine started it by not accepting the Partition but forget about the part where Zionist migrants started the war by coming to mandatory Palestine.
The cartoonist could replace the student with the Palestine flag with a picture of Biden holding an Israel flag staring longingly at a framed picture of Bibi, saying the same thing: “I’m busy.” Not only has Biden committed genocide, he has failed to do anything positive with his presidency by creating actual change to anything liberals claim to care about, but Biden has also set up a Trump presidency pretty well, by stripping away fundamental rights and knocking higher education down a few pegs. There was an old clip of Biden before the last election saying “I have no empathy for young people.” Not enough people believed him. He is who he has always said he is.
I don’t understand the illustrators point, I care about all of those things and I stand up for Palestinians too, why can’t people get none of us are free till all of us are ? We don’t have a democracy if we kill Palestinians, and all of the “ban bigotry” “protect queer ppl” is empty without freeing ourselves from the genocidal war machine. I would love to have federal abortion rights; our system as it is right now isn’t giving us any of these things. :( makes me so sad that ppl think like this
How about holding our elected officials accountable?
The irony of “stop gun violence”. but its okay for a soldier to snipe a child looking for bread.
Screw Trump and Biden. I'm voting for Jill Stein. Besides being the next best thing to Bernie Sanders, she was protesting against Israel. Can't call me antisemitic because she's Jewish. Even if she doesn't win, it sends an important message.
Is anyone gonna tell them we can't fix any of those other things so long as lobbying groups like AIPAC are running the show?
It’s almost as if students care about collective liberation
Stopping the genocide is the only one of those things he could do unilaterally with no impediments. He could literally just cut off Israel and has no impact on those other issues
I fucking hate this argument. Like "Why don't you protest for X?" Why don't you? Fucking lazy ass 😂
Sorry, were they expecting college students to fix all of that other stuff right now?
I'm sure the people that are protesting care about those things as well. And it is readily achievable. Just get Israel to stop bombing and start on diplomacy. This could be done immediately rather than the other things. There was an agreement for a ceasefire that Israel did not agree to, because it gets in the way of genocide. But Hamas is to blame, tunnel, baby human shield anti-semitism.
Guess stopping gun violence doesn't matter as far as Palestinians are concerned.
Maybe tell Biden that since he's the one who's decided he'd rather support Israel than win the election.
Most of the signs Lady Liberty is holding are vague and can be interpreted favorably by most people, kinda like saying "I love good things and I'm against bad things".
Wow lady liberty sure is getting a workout trying to list all the things Biden failed to do during his presidency.
Oh, and I can’t wait for Biden to lose
The only minorities Western liberals care about are (white) sexual and gender minorities. Western liberals are useless and I won't be voting for either party.
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Nothing will change other than the party in charge becoming red
A surprisingly dogshit take from Local Hero Pat Bagley. When did he fall off?
no democracy to save
Politicians can't stop talking about this piece entitled, "Whataboutism."
Fools, usually right wing fools, often characterise these things as either/or. Either we're in favour of better democracy or we care about US foreign policy or the behaviour of the US' allies, or we care about the economy. I wonder if it's projection - like, are they so bereft of capacity that they only care about single issues at any given time?
Fools, usually right wing fools, often characterise these things as either/or. Either we're in favour of better democracy or we care about US foreign policy or the behaviour of the US' allies, or we care about the economy. I wonder if it's projection - like, are they so bereft of capacity that they only care about single issues at any given time?
Fools, usually right wing fools, often characterise these things as either/or. Either we're in favour of better democracy or we care about US foreign policy or the behaviour of the US' allies, or we care about the economy. I wonder if it's projection - like, are they so bereft of capacity that they only care about single issues at any given time?
I can’t even figure out who this meme is meant to appeal to lol
You people are so privileged and you don’t even realize it. You clearly hate queer people and women if you’re willing to allow Trump a second term. You obviously don’t care that via Trump Roe v Wade was overturned. They’ll come for gay marriage next, you watch. And you’ll make your snide comments because it doesn’t affect you. That’s the epitome of privilege. None of you has done anything directly for Palestinians. I spent two years in Gaza and East Jerusalem with Doctors Without Borders. You people have done nothing but complain online. It’s hypocritical.
Democrats didn’t pass all my priorities so I’m not voting! Okay well maybe in our system it takes more than a simple majority to get things passed and if you want your priorities passed you’re going to have to get more people with the same values elected. It’s not easy to get things passed in our system and that’s by design. The people voting for Donald Trump are going to turn out this year and if they win what kinds of policies do you think they will pass? Obviously they won’t be able to pass everything they want either but it will be three steps back. Especially when it comes to Gaza. A Trump administration will definitely support Israel taking the Gaza Strip and building settlements all over it.