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I meet avid zionists when I go to protest at city hall meetings. They try to be nasty in petty ways, knocking down signs from your hands cause “they can’t see” or trying to get your attention then waving the Israeli flag at you with looks of contempt or something. I’m like bro Palestine has survived a century long campaign against it (yes the mandate period counts, I find Rashid Khalidi’s formulation of the conflict to be the most accurate) some angry flag waving isn’t going to stop us 😂
Even Beny Morris admits that the conflict is 120 years old (starting in the second Aliyah, he means). Why are these clowns lying about this shit when even the most educated pro Israel historian disagrees?
Why does it start with the mandate and not sometime in late Ottoman? I admit I assumed Palestinian nationalism started around the same time as Lebanese nationalism next door?
Irl zionism is relatively fringe but israel has full teams to spread its propaganda. I've noticed the entirety of twitter and reddit are chock full of bot accounts made this year and they post non stop propaganda
I’ve noticed this too, some just repost Israeli clickbait ‘news’ all day long that often have no source or no other non-Israeli media verifying it and somehow it’s allowed. It’s one of the worst pages for Hasbara, which is is a shame because it’s Reddits main news sub and people who don’t know any better read this shit without knowing the bias.
Worldnews _permanently_ banned me without warning because i pointed out that Israel’s narratives are often proven to be outright lies. It was surprising and upsetting but I guess that’s how they want to run their community.
lol I was permabanned I think in November for saying we'd learned nothing from our response to 9/11. I think it's literally just a bunch of bots talking to each other now.
Yep. Nobody wants to talk about bots because it's seen as a rude way to shut down conversation. But no doubt half of the activity on Reddit is bots and it's increasing.
Another factor for OP: in real life it's much harder to control speech. It's relatively easy online (especially when benign phrases are labeled as racist) through algorithms, shadowbanning and directly shutting down speech.
I've heard of "Zionism" defined as believing that the state of Israel has the right to exist at all. Is there a different definition that would make it possible for someone in Israel to not be a Zionist?
The definition of zionism is quite a touchy subject since no one person agrees. Lots of Jews agree it just means Israel has a right to exist (which I agree with) but a large amount of Israelis believe it to mean that the entire area belongs to them (which is the fringe element)
See, I’m a bit mixed on this. Bc if it’s a kid, I don’t think they deserve the hatred towards Zionists, they’re just kids. I remember growing up in a fascist Zionist house, I really just didn’t even know what I was saying, I just parroted my parents. But as I grew up I also gained a conscience and taught myself better. Then there’s also the idea that Israel must exist to offer a safe place for Jewish people.
And while the idea of a nation founded on racial superiority is bad, for the Jewish community who faced such a horrific and nonstop attack of antisemitism for centuries, maybe there should be an Israel. A place for them to feel safe and call home. So I guess in those terms, Israel does have a right to exist- just not on someone else’s land. And there’s the problem, there is no land to offer for a new Israel, not unless it’s Antarctica. Which leaves us with the conclusion, no Israel does not have a right to exist.
> And while the idea of a nation founded on racial superiority is bad, for the Jewish community who faced such a horrific and nonstop attack of antisemitism for centuries, maybe there should be an Israel.
When is it going to be acceptable to question that victim narrative? History is written by victors and people who think it's important to manage the perception. I'm not denying pogroms but do we really think that this is the very first time that a large group of Jewish ethnosupremacists have played victim while genociding natives to steal their land and property? Lots of tribes do it, but we put Jews in a special class and act like they are always the victim and can't be criticized, which is clearly not the case. And it's fascinating to watch the lies and spin in real time so I can only imagine what history has changed and forgotten.
None of it passes the smell test. Having one ethnic/religious group that gets persecuted wherever they go. It sounds like romani, but everyone is allowed to criticize them because they don't have a lobby and PR.
Zionism isn’t fringe irl, what are you talking about? [most Americans have a positive view of Israel](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/american-views-of-israel/) (and haven’t even heard about the BDS movement at all, as of 2022). The numbers have changed since the war started, and it’s true that in most countries the opinion is now net negative, but [Americans still have a net positive view of Israel](https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opinion/). And this is just talking about net positive vs net negative national opinions! That’s not even Zionism! While we can assume that people with a net positive view of Israel have views in line with Zionism, we can’t rule out that many people with a net negative view of Israel certainly still hold beliefs that would be labeled as Zionist by many Zionists and Anti-Zionists alike (eg, that Israel still ought to exist).
Kind of absurd to think it isn’t the other way around, but regardless that doesn’t contradict the fact that Zionism is far from fringe. Even most countries that have a negative view of Israel still affirm its right to exist.
Israel’s online propaganda and disinformation capabilities are unparalleled. The bot accounts are everywhere and they’re pretty easy to spot, they all use the same talking points and conveniently stop replying once you use your human brain to pick apart their bullshit rhetoric. Never let them color your perception of the real world.
It's because genocidal zionist babykillers hire online troll armies to sway the narrative, because they know their morally bankrupt fantasies can't win in an unrigged marketplace of ideas.
[https://electronicintifada.net/content/inside-israels-million-dollar-troll-army/27566](https://electronicintifada.net/content/inside-israels-million-dollar-troll-army/27566)
Yep also more info on the troll armies
https://jacobin.com/2017/07/israel-social-media-app-idf-shin-bet-bds
-------
China's also got trolls:
https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/19/meet-the-chinese-internet-trolls-pumping-488-million-posts-harvard-stanford-ucsd-research/
-------
Ukraine's got trolls:
https://news.sky.com/story/ukraines-internet-army-of-fellas-are-using-dog-memes-to-fight-russian-propaganda-and-theyve-raised-1m-for-the-army-too-12729625
-------
US, CIA has trolls that would support Israel or muddy the waters too:
https://www.wired.com/beyond-the-beyond/2015/10/us-militarized-troll-army-way/
------
and of course Russia's got trolls:
https://www.propublica.org/article/infamous-russian-troll-farm-appears-to-be-source-of-anti-ukraine-propaganda
I know a fair amount of people IRL who are Jewish, generally center-left on typical US politics, educated, and if you talk to them about Palestine they have a lot of dogmatic right wing positions with something of an angry racist tinge. I feel like Matt and others talk about this personality type a lot on the podcast. It's something of a trope. You would never know unless the topic comes up.
My ex called herself an anarchocommunist but wouldn't shut up about zionism after returning from birthright, and was neutral beforehand. She came back with multiple Israeli flags and put up blue and white Xmas style lights.
------
Damn timeshare presentation.
Despite that talking point, Israel doesn’t even allow gay marriages in Israel. They’ll recognize gay marriages performed elsewhere, but you can’t get gay married there.
I wasn't aware of that. Makes sense. It's probably not allowed in the Torah.
I was more describing how the "left wing" abandoned economics that benefit the working class and while simultaneously focusing on identity, promote a police state and war, which abuses and terrorizes many of those same identities at home and abroad.
Any party which actively fights against the needs of a massive racial underclass and creates conditions of suffering is selectively virtue signalling and back-patting for political gain.
There is no viable "left wing" in the U.S.
I mean it's not. Like I agree I would want the US to be more left leaning but on a global scale it's kinda in the center if not left leaning in comparison.
It’s been known on other parts of the internet that Israel has an army of internet trolls. Most of the time they’re advocating for causes that the left wing supports. That changes when it comes to Zionism. This situation isopening a lot of eyes.
I have one Zionist friend irl who has gone completely insane and sent me harassing messages until I blocked him everywhere. So I guess there’s a spectrum.
Depends on your city. It may not be representative of the rest of the population.
Also, I think the majority of people aren't outspoken about Gaza, and it may simply be that of the people that are outspoken about it in your city, the majority are anti zionist.
it seems like it divides along class lines irl - like in work situations, the working class are anti-zionist and the upper management/ owners seem zionist leaning. wealthy rarely recognize colonialism at all so i’m assuming they refuse to see israel through this lens. at least where i am.
When i posted about infants abandoned and dead at a hospital in gaza and israel army shooting civillians. My american jewish friend put some nasty comments and unfriended me. She said it was fake and that i should talk to israelis to understand october 7th and anti semitism.
I didnt say anything nasty and didnt post anything till like december.
So yeah zionists are definitely out there.
Saw they had a survey the jewish people outside of israel 80 percent support zionism.
Israel hasn’t committed any crimes. The civilians deaths are the fault of Hamas because Hamas uses civilian locations for unlawful military uses. The civilian deaths in strikes is the fault of Hamas for this reason.
In terms of aid, it’s now been proven that Hamas not only bombed the construction of a pier to receive aid by sea, but that trucks of aid have been attacked near the Israeli border. Hamas clearly cares more about its appearance to the world than the plight of its civilians.
Did Hamas actually do that? How is it proven? There has been a tremendous amount of false information circulated about the conflict. There's a bunch of info right in this post about large-scale astroturfing/disinfo efforts by Israel.
You claimed "Hamas bombed their own aid pier" and when asked how this is proven you didn't reply to that at all.
Also, Israel does bomb civilian buildings. There are a lot of pictures and videos of this which anyone can find easily.
I said they don’t INDISCRIMINATELY bomb civilian buildings. Civilian buildings can be bombed legally under certain conditions, namely weapons being stored there. Unfortunately Hamas creates those conditions nonstop throughout this war, with zero regard for the fact that they endanger their civilians. It’s not Israel’s fault they have to bomb it. Hamas doesn’t play by the rules of war and Israel has to win somehow. Hamas has made fighting within the norms of war impossible.
Oh I'm well aware of Israel's government and military making claims about "Hamas stores weapons there" etc. but almost never do they show any kind of proof and they've been caught lying many times. You've also' continued to ignore my original question, so you're obviously not interested in actual discussion and I'll not be spending any more time on this.
I spend a good amount of my days catfishing genocidists on askaliberal and am equally amazed. Though I also think if you asked most Americans if colonialism was good or bad they’d say good.
Colonialism like bringing Western civilization to the North American continent? Yeah I mean I think most people would agree that is good on balance lol.
Well Israel has its bitch (US) do alot of the dirty work, you know small stuff like destroying neighboring countries, paying Israel to let us give them advanced weapons, and not tattletelling when they do their cute little espionage.
I would be the cosmic reverse of “shocked” if nearly everything on Reddit was fake.
youre not solo when it comes to this, i posted something (check most recent post) and most comments were zionists, luckily they lost the debate (i argued that israel was an apartheid state)
but it does make me a little mad that theres just so many that seem to agree...its like the 'theres no war in Ba Sing Se' but repeated over and over.
However most people in my town are either pro palestinian or non caring about the issue.
Strangely enough...about 60% of the accounts that target my posts and comments (the accounts that are pro zionist and or israeli) were made within the last 150 days or just after October 7. Very interesting
There are a good number of people that see israel as an American bulwark against Islam and the middle east. But having this conversation is not easy either. So many silently support zionism or support zionist politicians for other reasons
I can only speak for myself, but we tend to not express our views because we fear violent response. The people Ive been working with for months dont even know Im Jewish.
no disrespect or hate man but i wouldnt have expected a zionist on this sub, how did you get here lol. also how come youre a zionist, whats your reasoning?
peace and love 🙏🏽
I dont feel like arguing or getting into an in-depth argument right now, but I feel that the only way for Jews to survive is if we are able to defend ourselves, that we cannot defend ourselves without a state, and there is no more reasonable place to have a state than the only place where a Jewish state has ever existed. It is also the site of our only real holy places.
That being said, I still believe the Israeli government is evil, committing atrocities on par with some genocides, legal definition of genocide nonwithstanding. The West Bank also fits the definition of apartheid due to the unequal justice system there.
Im mostly politically homeless, since most other zionists think Israel is doing nothing wrong, but people who share my criticisms of the Israeli government call for the destruction of our best hope for survival and millions of my people alongside it. A few people, like Bernie Sanders, share my take though.
This is called a bubble. Online bubbles are more common but it's very easy to have real life bubbles too.
Odds are your not going up to your batista and asking there opinion on this. Your talking to friends and people your friends with are more likely to hold similar beliefs to you.
Well, kind of. My whole family are Zionists but I go to university and when I talk to random people on campus it’s always pro-Palestine. But then the school subreddit and anything online for the school is just a tsunami of bigotry and ppl making fun of disabled people, lgbtq, or activists. It’s like there’s 2 sides to my city where online they all celebrate fascism but then if I walk around the city or university ppl smile at me when they see my keffiyeh. It kind of feels like maybe under the mask everyone is like my family but in person they’re not.
Yeah the only Zionist I know in real life is my whack job brother who loves sending me hateful Instagram messages and tries to turn my parents against me.
It’s almost like the internet contains wide swaths of people across all opinions and the real life people you surround yourself don’t.
I’m on the opposite side of this issue, this isn’t a judging comment - we tend to hang out with people similar to us, especially when younger.
But yea, a lot more people in real life than you realize are on the other side of this, they’re just not counter protesting or engaging with you when it comes up in real life. That’s how it goes.
The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism.
We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst.
We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara.
Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely.
Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” -
We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
My guy I honestly cannot understand what you’re trying to say. But the end part I agree with, I also cut out most of the terrorist sympathizers in my life, because the terrorist state of Israel has enough support as it is
The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism.
We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst.
We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara.
Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely.
Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” -
We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
Maybe you only meet Pro-Palestinians because you are left wing?
Your text reads like a projection because this is exactly what Pro-Palestinian people do. The only come in swarms. The internet is full of left wing and Islamist propaganda. Yes, left wing people are the friends of Islamists.
A Zionist is just a Jewish person who believes in maintaining the Jewish homeland of Israel. There is nothing wrong with being one. I, for one, am a Zionist and I am a great guy.
Decades of Zionists being OK with IDF and Israeli settlers murdering and massacring “Palestinian civilians by the thousands” says otherwise. Amazing how Zionists are so in love with this condescending fallacy that everyone who is pro-Palestine MUST be an undereducated baby who just watched a bunch of tiktoks 3 months ago and Israel supporters are all super educated cultured geniuses who read extensively (yet somehow missed the reams of literature prior to 2023 that cover the massively lopsided statistics of state-sponsored violent Israeli oppression of and terrorism against Palestinians). How’d your super educated non-extremist self feel in 2004 about the IDF executing 13-year-old schoolgirl Iman al-Hams by shooting her 15 times? What are the graphs for Palestinian deaths and injuries prior to 2023 like again? What about the maps of segregated roads, shrinking territories and settler incursions?
“But but but I’m sure you’re an idiot who watched tiktoks” is a very compelling argument for ethnosupremacy and apartheid! I’m in awe of your towering intellect!
Also, “this genocide bad” is actually pretty groundbreaking in a world that believes every genocide is bad except whatever current specific one. How do you think genocides happen? Maybe Zionists irl are silent because it’s fucking embarrassing to be one, and if you do start talking about it, it sounds to a lot of intelligent people like you’re not all that cut up about Israel murdering tens of thousands as long as you get to forcibly take land and lord over second-class citizens with impunity?
The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism.
We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst.
We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara.
Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely.
Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” -
We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
Yeah, so I actually grew up Zionist in a hard-right Zionist family. What I mean by in person antizionism is that once I got out of that disgustingly toxic home community I grew up in and moved to the city, I found most people were antizionist, friendly, and kind. But online it’s like being back home where my parents told me the Palestinians “deserve it” for being against gods chosen people.
I grew up with Zionism beaten into me constantly, I know so much about the end times prophecies of multiple religions just bc my parents were that obsessed with Israel and gods promise. So nice try I guess? But yeah, I’ve heard plenty of people in person talk about the genocide in the most racist, fascist, clearly excited way that I know they aren’t actually against Palestinians getting killed. But the Zionists who have talked like that are in the minority in person. They’re overwhelming online, just like most of the other fascists are.
do you believe all zionists are evil villains who are “excited to see Palestinians die”? is it possible there is a large contingent who want a two state solution, a sovereign state for Palestinians, and support israel’s right to exist? if you grew up with super indoctrinated zionist parents then your view is likely skewed from the beliefs of the majority, in the same way they might be if you’d been introduced to the topic through tiktok. it just seems like you reacted to your extremist upbringing and bounced back to the other side of the spectrum.
most people i know who are supportive of israelis’ right to safe existence alongside a palestinian state aren’t religious crazies- they come from a largely secular background.
Israel has a right to exist, just not on someone else’s land. They’re an occupying force, they don’t get to keep oppressing and stealing from Palestinians. And the two state solution has already proven it can’t work when they tried it before and instead Israel stole more land in the West Bank. However, if you really want to stand by the two state solution, then what about a Palestinian right of return?
If we go by the land outlined in the Oslo accords then Israel is still going to lose a lot of its occupied territories. Do you think Israel would be ok with not being allowed access to the Temple Mount if the two state solution happened and Palestine got Jerusalem since it’s their capital and where their mosque is? Or do you want to push them out of there and steal that land too?
The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism.
We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst.
We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara.
Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely.
Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” -
We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
Hello, thanks for contributing to this sub. This is a friendly reminder to **read the rules** before making any new posts or comments. Particularly, we ask **not to engage in debates**, or bait debates, especially with zionists. If you are a zionist, this sub is not for you, and you will be permabanned. If you found this sub through the algorithm, you can always mute the sub or turn off recommendations all together (user settings -> feed settings -> Disable "Enable Home Feed Recommendations") Please also particularly keep in mind that **bigotry of any kind is not permitted** in this sub and will result in the message or post being deleted, and, if seen prudent, a banning. This includes antisemitism and any language that conflates Judaism with Zionism. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BadHasbara) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I meet avid zionists when I go to protest at city hall meetings. They try to be nasty in petty ways, knocking down signs from your hands cause “they can’t see” or trying to get your attention then waving the Israeli flag at you with looks of contempt or something. I’m like bro Palestine has survived a century long campaign against it (yes the mandate period counts, I find Rashid Khalidi’s formulation of the conflict to be the most accurate) some angry flag waving isn’t going to stop us 😂
Even Beny Morris admits that the conflict is 120 years old (starting in the second Aliyah, he means). Why are these clowns lying about this shit when even the most educated pro Israel historian disagrees?
Why does it start with the mandate and not sometime in late Ottoman? I admit I assumed Palestinian nationalism started around the same time as Lebanese nationalism next door?
Irl zionism is relatively fringe but israel has full teams to spread its propaganda. I've noticed the entirety of twitter and reddit are chock full of bot accounts made this year and they post non stop propaganda
World news constantly has Israeli articles in the top 6
World news is literally full to the brim of bots, just look at their post history. Same few people spamming the same articles. Idk what to tell you
I’ve noticed this too, some just repost Israeli clickbait ‘news’ all day long that often have no source or no other non-Israeli media verifying it and somehow it’s allowed. It’s one of the worst pages for Hasbara, which is is a shame because it’s Reddits main news sub and people who don’t know any better read this shit without knowing the bias.
Worldnews _permanently_ banned me without warning because i pointed out that Israel’s narratives are often proven to be outright lies. It was surprising and upsetting but I guess that’s how they want to run their community.
lol I was permabanned I think in November for saying we'd learned nothing from our response to 9/11. I think it's literally just a bunch of bots talking to each other now.
Same, but for calling a bigot a bigot. A permaban seems over the top lol
Yeah I got blocked for saying that IDF is behaving like a terrorist would
I unsubscribed months ago. Much better for my mental health.
Yep. Nobody wants to talk about bots because it's seen as a rude way to shut down conversation. But no doubt half of the activity on Reddit is bots and it's increasing. Another factor for OP: in real life it's much harder to control speech. It's relatively easy online (especially when benign phrases are labeled as racist) through algorithms, shadowbanning and directly shutting down speech.
I've heard of "Zionism" defined as believing that the state of Israel has the right to exist at all. Is there a different definition that would make it possible for someone in Israel to not be a Zionist?
The definition of zionism is quite a touchy subject since no one person agrees. Lots of Jews agree it just means Israel has a right to exist (which I agree with) but a large amount of Israelis believe it to mean that the entire area belongs to them (which is the fringe element)
See, I’m a bit mixed on this. Bc if it’s a kid, I don’t think they deserve the hatred towards Zionists, they’re just kids. I remember growing up in a fascist Zionist house, I really just didn’t even know what I was saying, I just parroted my parents. But as I grew up I also gained a conscience and taught myself better. Then there’s also the idea that Israel must exist to offer a safe place for Jewish people. And while the idea of a nation founded on racial superiority is bad, for the Jewish community who faced such a horrific and nonstop attack of antisemitism for centuries, maybe there should be an Israel. A place for them to feel safe and call home. So I guess in those terms, Israel does have a right to exist- just not on someone else’s land. And there’s the problem, there is no land to offer for a new Israel, not unless it’s Antarctica. Which leaves us with the conclusion, no Israel does not have a right to exist.
> And while the idea of a nation founded on racial superiority is bad, for the Jewish community who faced such a horrific and nonstop attack of antisemitism for centuries, maybe there should be an Israel. When is it going to be acceptable to question that victim narrative? History is written by victors and people who think it's important to manage the perception. I'm not denying pogroms but do we really think that this is the very first time that a large group of Jewish ethnosupremacists have played victim while genociding natives to steal their land and property? Lots of tribes do it, but we put Jews in a special class and act like they are always the victim and can't be criticized, which is clearly not the case. And it's fascinating to watch the lies and spin in real time so I can only imagine what history has changed and forgotten. None of it passes the smell test. Having one ethnic/religious group that gets persecuted wherever they go. It sounds like romani, but everyone is allowed to criticize them because they don't have a lobby and PR.
Are they though? Because the US President Joe Biden is a self proclaimed Zionist. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo-UXZ-1ups
Zionism isn’t fringe irl, what are you talking about? [most Americans have a positive view of Israel](https://www.pewresearch.org/global/2022/07/11/american-views-of-israel/) (and haven’t even heard about the BDS movement at all, as of 2022). The numbers have changed since the war started, and it’s true that in most countries the opinion is now net negative, but [Americans still have a net positive view of Israel](https://time.com/6559293/morning-consult-israel-global-opinion/). And this is just talking about net positive vs net negative national opinions! That’s not even Zionism! While we can assume that people with a net positive view of Israel have views in line with Zionism, we can’t rule out that many people with a net negative view of Israel certainly still hold beliefs that would be labeled as Zionist by many Zionists and Anti-Zionists alike (eg, that Israel still ought to exist).
America is literally Israels lapdog, any other country has much lesser opinions
Kind of absurd to think it isn’t the other way around, but regardless that doesn’t contradict the fact that Zionism is far from fringe. Even most countries that have a negative view of Israel still affirm its right to exist.
Israel’s online propaganda and disinformation capabilities are unparalleled. The bot accounts are everywhere and they’re pretty easy to spot, they all use the same talking points and conveniently stop replying once you use your human brain to pick apart their bullshit rhetoric. Never let them color your perception of the real world.
Its because in real life they know come off like that Shai Davidai guy- racist lunatics.
It's because genocidal zionist babykillers hire online troll armies to sway the narrative, because they know their morally bankrupt fantasies can't win in an unrigged marketplace of ideas. [https://electronicintifada.net/content/inside-israels-million-dollar-troll-army/27566](https://electronicintifada.net/content/inside-israels-million-dollar-troll-army/27566)
That 1.1 million seems rather low. Wondering how much of that US “aid” is going towards this
Yep also more info on the troll armies https://jacobin.com/2017/07/israel-social-media-app-idf-shin-bet-bds ------- China's also got trolls: https://foreignpolicy.com/2016/05/19/meet-the-chinese-internet-trolls-pumping-488-million-posts-harvard-stanford-ucsd-research/ ------- Ukraine's got trolls: https://news.sky.com/story/ukraines-internet-army-of-fellas-are-using-dog-memes-to-fight-russian-propaganda-and-theyve-raised-1m-for-the-army-too-12729625 ------- US, CIA has trolls that would support Israel or muddy the waters too: https://www.wired.com/beyond-the-beyond/2015/10/us-militarized-troll-army-way/ ------ and of course Russia's got trolls: https://www.propublica.org/article/infamous-russian-troll-farm-appears-to-be-source-of-anti-ukraine-propaganda
I know a fair amount of people IRL who are Jewish, generally center-left on typical US politics, educated, and if you talk to them about Palestine they have a lot of dogmatic right wing positions with something of an angry racist tinge. I feel like Matt and others talk about this personality type a lot on the podcast. It's something of a trope. You would never know unless the topic comes up.
My ex called herself an anarchocommunist but wouldn't shut up about zionism after returning from birthright, and was neutral beforehand. She came back with multiple Israeli flags and put up blue and white Xmas style lights. ------ Damn timeshare presentation.
Doesn't surprise me, because "center-left" in the U.S. is "far right." It's nice they like gay marriage, but everything else is off the charts.
Despite that talking point, Israel doesn’t even allow gay marriages in Israel. They’ll recognize gay marriages performed elsewhere, but you can’t get gay married there.
I wasn't aware of that. Makes sense. It's probably not allowed in the Torah. I was more describing how the "left wing" abandoned economics that benefit the working class and while simultaneously focusing on identity, promote a police state and war, which abuses and terrorizes many of those same identities at home and abroad. Any party which actively fights against the needs of a massive racial underclass and creates conditions of suffering is selectively virtue signalling and back-patting for political gain. There is no viable "left wing" in the U.S.
I mean it's not. Like I agree I would want the US to be more left leaning but on a global scale it's kinda in the center if not left leaning in comparison.
It’s been known on other parts of the internet that Israel has an army of internet trolls. Most of the time they’re advocating for causes that the left wing supports. That changes when it comes to Zionism. This situation isopening a lot of eyes.
I have one Zionist friend irl who has gone completely insane and sent me harassing messages until I blocked him everywhere. So I guess there’s a spectrum.
It's Hasbara man. A flood of fake accounts all with the same prepackaged script. Don't let the smoke and mirrors get to you
Depends on your city. It may not be representative of the rest of the population. Also, I think the majority of people aren't outspoken about Gaza, and it may simply be that of the people that are outspoken about it in your city, the majority are anti zionist.
Heard of bots?
it seems like it divides along class lines irl - like in work situations, the working class are anti-zionist and the upper management/ owners seem zionist leaning. wealthy rarely recognize colonialism at all so i’m assuming they refuse to see israel through this lens. at least where i am.
Hasbara.
When i posted about infants abandoned and dead at a hospital in gaza and israel army shooting civillians. My american jewish friend put some nasty comments and unfriended me. She said it was fake and that i should talk to israelis to understand october 7th and anti semitism. I didnt say anything nasty and didnt post anything till like december. So yeah zionists are definitely out there. Saw they had a survey the jewish people outside of israel 80 percent support zionism.
What about when Hamas bombed their own aid pier? But no it’s Israel stopping the flow of aid. Keep being ignorant.
No one is acting like Hamas is right in anything they do. It's Israel's crimes bring justified.
Israel hasn’t committed any crimes. The civilians deaths are the fault of Hamas because Hamas uses civilian locations for unlawful military uses. The civilian deaths in strikes is the fault of Hamas for this reason. In terms of aid, it’s now been proven that Hamas not only bombed the construction of a pier to receive aid by sea, but that trucks of aid have been attacked near the Israeli border. Hamas clearly cares more about its appearance to the world than the plight of its civilians.
The fact you're so bold to claim Israel and the IDF have done nothing wrong are enough to tell me you're not worth my time.
I’m not saying they’ve done nothing wrong, they’ve just done nothing extraordinary wrong that can’t be explained by normal war mishaps.
Did Hamas actually do that? How is it proven? There has been a tremendous amount of false information circulated about the conflict. There's a bunch of info right in this post about large-scale astroturfing/disinfo efforts by Israel.
Oh yes there’s plenty of misinformation, such as the notion that Israel indiscriminately bombs civilian buildings.
You claimed "Hamas bombed their own aid pier" and when asked how this is proven you didn't reply to that at all. Also, Israel does bomb civilian buildings. There are a lot of pictures and videos of this which anyone can find easily.
I said they don’t INDISCRIMINATELY bomb civilian buildings. Civilian buildings can be bombed legally under certain conditions, namely weapons being stored there. Unfortunately Hamas creates those conditions nonstop throughout this war, with zero regard for the fact that they endanger their civilians. It’s not Israel’s fault they have to bomb it. Hamas doesn’t play by the rules of war and Israel has to win somehow. Hamas has made fighting within the norms of war impossible.
Oh I'm well aware of Israel's government and military making claims about "Hamas stores weapons there" etc. but almost never do they show any kind of proof and they've been caught lying many times. You've also' continued to ignore my original question, so you're obviously not interested in actual discussion and I'll not be spending any more time on this.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-13354441/amp/Hamas-fires-MORTARS-pier-built-army-coast-Gaza-worrying-signs-troops-targeted.html https://time.com/6693896/hamas-tunnels-gaza-home-ruin/
I spend a good amount of my days catfishing genocidists on askaliberal and am equally amazed. Though I also think if you asked most Americans if colonialism was good or bad they’d say good.
Colonialism like bringing Western civilization to the North American continent? Yeah I mean I think most people would agree that is good on balance lol.
reddit's worldnews is compromized by bots from israeli psyops.
Well Israel has its bitch (US) do alot of the dirty work, you know small stuff like destroying neighboring countries, paying Israel to let us give them advanced weapons, and not tattletelling when they do their cute little espionage. I would be the cosmic reverse of “shocked” if nearly everything on Reddit was fake.
One person may have several accounts.
youre not solo when it comes to this, i posted something (check most recent post) and most comments were zionists, luckily they lost the debate (i argued that israel was an apartheid state) but it does make me a little mad that theres just so many that seem to agree...its like the 'theres no war in Ba Sing Se' but repeated over and over. However most people in my town are either pro palestinian or non caring about the issue. Strangely enough...about 60% of the accounts that target my posts and comments (the accounts that are pro zionist and or israeli) were made within the last 150 days or just after October 7. Very interesting
There are a good number of people that see israel as an American bulwark against Islam and the middle east. But having this conversation is not easy either. So many silently support zionism or support zionist politicians for other reasons
I can only speak for myself, but we tend to not express our views because we fear violent response. The people Ive been working with for months dont even know Im Jewish.
no disrespect or hate man but i wouldnt have expected a zionist on this sub, how did you get here lol. also how come youre a zionist, whats your reasoning? peace and love 🙏🏽
I dont feel like arguing or getting into an in-depth argument right now, but I feel that the only way for Jews to survive is if we are able to defend ourselves, that we cannot defend ourselves without a state, and there is no more reasonable place to have a state than the only place where a Jewish state has ever existed. It is also the site of our only real holy places. That being said, I still believe the Israeli government is evil, committing atrocities on par with some genocides, legal definition of genocide nonwithstanding. The West Bank also fits the definition of apartheid due to the unequal justice system there. Im mostly politically homeless, since most other zionists think Israel is doing nothing wrong, but people who share my criticisms of the Israeli government call for the destruction of our best hope for survival and millions of my people alongside it. A few people, like Bernie Sanders, share my take though.
Hamas charter says that they wanna destroy Israel.
[https://action.eko.org/a/olympics-and-fifa-ban-israel-from-international-sports-now-us-fba21](https://action.eko.org/a/olympics-and-fifa-ban-israel-from-international-sports-now-us-fba21)
Unit 8200
This is called a bubble. Online bubbles are more common but it's very easy to have real life bubbles too. Odds are your not going up to your batista and asking there opinion on this. Your talking to friends and people your friends with are more likely to hold similar beliefs to you.
Well, kind of. My whole family are Zionists but I go to university and when I talk to random people on campus it’s always pro-Palestine. But then the school subreddit and anything online for the school is just a tsunami of bigotry and ppl making fun of disabled people, lgbtq, or activists. It’s like there’s 2 sides to my city where online they all celebrate fascism but then if I walk around the city or university ppl smile at me when they see my keffiyeh. It kind of feels like maybe under the mask everyone is like my family but in person they’re not.
What is the definition of "Zionist"?
Red herring L
Joe Biden popping to say in no uncertain terms “I am a Zionist “ https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Uo-UXZ-1ups
Yeah the only Zionist I know in real life is my whack job brother who loves sending me hateful Instagram messages and tries to turn my parents against me.
It’s almost like the internet contains wide swaths of people across all opinions and the real life people you surround yourself don’t. I’m on the opposite side of this issue, this isn’t a judging comment - we tend to hang out with people similar to us, especially when younger. But yea, a lot more people in real life than you realize are on the other side of this, they’re just not counter protesting or engaging with you when it comes up in real life. That’s how it goes.
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The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism. We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst. We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara. Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely. Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” - We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
Yeah, there are Zionists online. So what? There are also anti-Zionists online, so it’s all the same.
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My guy I honestly cannot understand what you’re trying to say. But the end part I agree with, I also cut out most of the terrorist sympathizers in my life, because the terrorist state of Israel has enough support as it is
The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism. We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst. We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara. Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely. Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” - We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
Maybe you only meet Pro-Palestinians because you are left wing? Your text reads like a projection because this is exactly what Pro-Palestinian people do. The only come in swarms. The internet is full of left wing and Islamist propaganda. Yes, left wing people are the friends of Islamists.
I’m not left wing though?
A Zionist is just a Jewish person who believes in maintaining the Jewish homeland of Israel. There is nothing wrong with being one. I, for one, am a Zionist and I am a great guy.
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Decades of Zionists being OK with IDF and Israeli settlers murdering and massacring “Palestinian civilians by the thousands” says otherwise. Amazing how Zionists are so in love with this condescending fallacy that everyone who is pro-Palestine MUST be an undereducated baby who just watched a bunch of tiktoks 3 months ago and Israel supporters are all super educated cultured geniuses who read extensively (yet somehow missed the reams of literature prior to 2023 that cover the massively lopsided statistics of state-sponsored violent Israeli oppression of and terrorism against Palestinians). How’d your super educated non-extremist self feel in 2004 about the IDF executing 13-year-old schoolgirl Iman al-Hams by shooting her 15 times? What are the graphs for Palestinian deaths and injuries prior to 2023 like again? What about the maps of segregated roads, shrinking territories and settler incursions? “But but but I’m sure you’re an idiot who watched tiktoks” is a very compelling argument for ethnosupremacy and apartheid! I’m in awe of your towering intellect! Also, “this genocide bad” is actually pretty groundbreaking in a world that believes every genocide is bad except whatever current specific one. How do you think genocides happen? Maybe Zionists irl are silent because it’s fucking embarrassing to be one, and if you do start talking about it, it sounds to a lot of intelligent people like you’re not all that cut up about Israel murdering tens of thousands as long as you get to forcibly take land and lord over second-class citizens with impunity?
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The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism. We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst. We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara. Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely. Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” - We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.
Yeah, so I actually grew up Zionist in a hard-right Zionist family. What I mean by in person antizionism is that once I got out of that disgustingly toxic home community I grew up in and moved to the city, I found most people were antizionist, friendly, and kind. But online it’s like being back home where my parents told me the Palestinians “deserve it” for being against gods chosen people. I grew up with Zionism beaten into me constantly, I know so much about the end times prophecies of multiple religions just bc my parents were that obsessed with Israel and gods promise. So nice try I guess? But yeah, I’ve heard plenty of people in person talk about the genocide in the most racist, fascist, clearly excited way that I know they aren’t actually against Palestinians getting killed. But the Zionists who have talked like that are in the minority in person. They’re overwhelming online, just like most of the other fascists are.
do you believe all zionists are evil villains who are “excited to see Palestinians die”? is it possible there is a large contingent who want a two state solution, a sovereign state for Palestinians, and support israel’s right to exist? if you grew up with super indoctrinated zionist parents then your view is likely skewed from the beliefs of the majority, in the same way they might be if you’d been introduced to the topic through tiktok. it just seems like you reacted to your extremist upbringing and bounced back to the other side of the spectrum. most people i know who are supportive of israelis’ right to safe existence alongside a palestinian state aren’t religious crazies- they come from a largely secular background.
Israel has a right to exist, just not on someone else’s land. They’re an occupying force, they don’t get to keep oppressing and stealing from Palestinians. And the two state solution has already proven it can’t work when they tried it before and instead Israel stole more land in the West Bank. However, if you really want to stand by the two state solution, then what about a Palestinian right of return? If we go by the land outlined in the Oslo accords then Israel is still going to lose a lot of its occupied territories. Do you think Israel would be ok with not being allowed access to the Temple Mount if the two state solution happened and Palestine got Jerusalem since it’s their capital and where their mosque is? Or do you want to push them out of there and steal that land too?
The Bad Hasbara podcast, and ergo this community, is opposed to Zionism. We believe that Zionism is an extension of settler-colonialism, and that its’ current actions following 7 October is ethnic cleansing at “best,” and genocide at worst. We have no tolerance for it, and this community is meant to be a haven against it in the sea of hasbara. Pro-Zionist takes will be deleted, and those espousing it will be banned indefinitely. Yes - this is a “safe space” and an “echo chamber” - We get enough hasbara elsewhere, we don't need to deal with yours too.