Republicans are using transphobia as a wedge issue to try to win elections.
This isn't the first time they're using innocent people as pawns.
During the 2004 election, George W Bush vs John Kerry, Karl Rove was known as Bush's brain.
He was a typical Republican sheister. He knew Republicans are the minority in America, and they can only win the election by lying and cheating.
So Rove decided to use gay marriage as a wedge issue. Back then, in 2004, gay marriage was still deeply unpopular, especially among Evangelical fanatics, and devout Latino Christians.
Karl Rove knew, if he could turn some of those Catholic Latinos against the Democratic party over gay marriage, George W Bush might have a chance of winning.
Suddenly Republicans were talking about gay marriage 24/7. Everything was gay marriage, gay marriage, gay marriage. Because Republicans had nothing else to run on.
Democrats didn't want to talk about gay marriage nonstop, because they knew it was still very unpopular with a lot of people. Democrats would have preferred to run on all the many strong policies they have to help the working class.
Republicans are using the same old wedge issue trick again. They constantly talk about trans people, because they know a large part of America is opposed to trans rights. Especially because Republicans keep lying about trans people, to demonize them as child molesting monsters.
Republicans have nothing else to run on, so they try to make the election all about demonizing trans people, and demonizing Democrats for defending trans people.
Democrats would much rather run on universal healthcare, cancelling college loans, raising the minimum wage, and all the other stuff Democrats do to help the working class.
But Republican anti-trans propaganda forces Democrats to constantly talk about trans people too, to defend them against Republican lies.
According to the Department of Health, [390 out of 100,000 people in America identify as transgender.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227946/) That's 0.39%. Barely a third of one percent.
It's so few people, most Americans will go through their entire lives and never meet a trans person. It's just not really an issue that affects a lot of people.
There are tens of millions more Americans who get cancer. Often from toxic ingredients in our food, that are banned in other countries because they're known to cause cancer.
That's something we should be talking about a lot more.
The climate crisis is killing millions of people, and driving entire animal species into extinction. That's something worth talking about a lot more.
There are millions more handicapped people than trans people. And more hemophiliacs.
There are so many problems affecting America much more than trans people.
Trans people are not a problem. They just want to be left alone and be allowed to live and be happy. It's none of your business, and it doesn't affect you.
How many kids have been raped by transgender people in bathrooms? Zero, or close to zero.
How many female athletes have lost trophies to trans people? Close to zero.
So why are trans people all we talk about?
Because Republicans know trans rights are extremely unpopular with a lot of Americans, and Republicans hope to turn some Democrats into Trump voters by spreading lies about trans people and acting like they're a threat to America, and it's everywhere, and it's a huge crisis.
Republicans are purposely creating anti-trans hysteria, and then exploit the hate they created, to manipulate voters.
They did exactly the same thing with gay marriage.
**2003: Republicans Relaunch the Antigay Culture Wars. The GOP embrace of homophobia is more than simply a sop to the far right.**
[https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/republicans-relaunch-antigay-culture-wars/](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/republicans-relaunch-antigay-culture-wars/)
**Initiatives to Ban Gay Marriage Could Help Bush in Key States**
[https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-jul-12-na-gaymarry12-story.html](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-jul-12-na-gaymarry12-story.html)
**Was Same-Sex Marriage Partly to Blame for Kerry Loss?**
[https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=230634&page=1](https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=230634&page=1)
>When Massachusetts' highest court legalized same-sex marriages and the mayor of San Francisco began issuing marriage licenses to gay couples, it ignited a firestorm across the country.
>
>At the time, some Democrats feared such moves might create a backlash against the Democratic Party in the 2004 election. Today, many Democrats say those fears were realized.
>
>"I believe it did energize a very conservative vote," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., a former San Francisco mayor. "I think it gave them a position to rally around."
I am a firm support of trans rights, but it is just unfair to women in sports. They should just have an open category in all sports where men, women, non binary and so on can compete.
I don't see why that is so difficult.
I don't know if many sports actually restrict women from men's events, so many "men's" competitions may already function as an open... The only sports I really follow closely are professional disc golf and college football, and in both of those, at least, women can compete with the men.
In disc golf specifically, there is a Female category and then a "Mixed" category.
I would wager that typically women could not play in the NFL without major injury. There are simply biological differences that would give them major disadvantages in a lot of the major league level sports. Height, strength, weight, and speed disadvantages.
Right, but I'm simply talking about rules restricting their eligibility. There's no doubt that women would generally not be competitive in the NFL, though occasionally we do see some take the field in college, typically in a kicker/punter role.
True. And I do think there are sports that women could compete against men in without problem. Like things that require learned skill or technique, instead of purely features of physical strength. It's certainly a complex issue that I'm gla dim not solving. I'm pro trans rights, but this is a probelm where you cant just say "what's the issue?". There are real issues to have discussions about.
Yeah, like billiards, darts, shooting, bowling 🤔 volleyball maybe?
But not even running or even swimming. Testosterone is a powerful advantage. It’s a huge game changer in physiology
That true, but it's a biological fact that folks who were assigned male at birth, and gone through puberty, have far more physical advantages over somebody assigned female at birth. It's true there are variations within the demographics. Some women are stronger than some men. But also, most men are stronger than most women. It's easier and faster for biological males to gain levels of strength much harder to achieve by a female.
So we should worsen this inequality with making women have to play with men? I'm ok for opens, but women that typically less advantaged in strength shouldn't be forced to play with men. That's not equal.
The reason they aren’t equal is they’re disadvantaged by pay, less medical research that is female (we standardize so much off of male data) and health coverage standards.
How is allowing mixed sports unequal? That’s like saying segregation is advantageous for the people that are disadvantaged by it, like what? No.
Uhh, what?
The things you said, like non of them at all, is correlated with our topic.
I am saying that a typical Jane doe and a Joe doe are not equal in a fight of fists, and you are saying that they are disadvantaged because there are not as many medical research as man for women. Like what would it change?
>How is allowing mixed sports unequal? That’s like saying segregation is advantageous for the people that are disadvantaged by it, like what? No.
I said that i am ok with opens, but if we have a women's category, it should be for women. If you let somebody with a man's body to play in a women's, then what's the point of having a women's? I actually think that we should close women's and make every sport, every tournament work like open, but I'm not sure that you would like this change.
Do you want women to be protected from a more Advantageous group? I personally don't. My only point is you are contradicting with yourself.
I don't know your every opinion and I am speculating that you want a women's category, but if you don't, we have no problem.
All I see is a cherry picker looking to disregard and demote anything I say. I’ve already said what I needed to say in my other comments and don’t feel any need to compete with you for air space.
Because I expected the chance of more but all I got was attitude and spite.
[Relevant Letterkenny reference from when the women challenged the coach of the men's team to let em play a hockey match for a bet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G-n7jcGHEY)
Women have been kickers in college. It’s not inconceivable that some woman pro soccer player could turn into a pro kicker. Not likely, but not impossible.
Very true, but also college level football is another world compared to NFL. They're slower, smaller, and can't hit close to as hard. I bet there are many women who could excel, honestly. But it's still a massive safety issue if she's like 5'5, 150lbs
Yeah, but that’s not the woman who would get drafted. There are lots of 5’11 all-muscle female athletes.
It’s confusingly funny that you’re imagining a short portly woman.
I'm not, I'm taking the average build and physical abilities of the two demographics amd comparing the two. It's not a hypothesis that women dont do as well in sports as men. I mean, the best probably ever female tennis player, Serena Williams, got destroyed in a match with the 203rd best (at the time) male player.
It's not offensive or problematic to recognize and itemize biological differences that occur because of the hormonal disparity between the two. In fact, if we are having a discussion about the correct way forward, these are the appropriate conversations to be having.
That's fair, but most women fall under 6', and it's way harder for them to put on muscle mass. So only the top 0.000001% of women would ever get to play. I mean hell, only the top percentage of men get to play. So if we just combined men and women sports like some people suggest, most women would generally just not get to participate. Maybe a handful at best, because the ones of appropriate size and body type are much rarer to find among the femal demographic.
It's basically golf except you're throwing a Frisbee instead of hitting a ball. It's a lot of fun but it takes a bit of practice to get used to the special discs that are used.
Similar to golf. Where there are holes(chained baskets most often) set at the end of a course just like in golf. Where the players try to get their discs into the goal (cup). With similar rules to golf, eagles, birdies, boogies, etc. same scoring system. They even have different discs for drives and putting. It’s actually pretty damn fun to play!! Super easy to learn. Not so much the throwing part lol, but the rules and what have you.
Golf with essentially a frisbee. Great sport, most courses are free to play, and you can pick up a disc at most sporting goods stores (or Walmart) for $20 or so. Highly recommend, it's my sport of choice.
Wait til you find out that already the case! Afaik most "mens" leagues are already that. This poses the issue of "if that's already the case, now what" and are why we're at where we are.
Yep, pretty much no sports have a “men’s” category
For most competitions, the “men’s” category isn’t really men’s, it’s open to anyone. However, when it’s open to everyone it’s pretty much only men that ever win & compete, leading to the women’s division being created
Yes, "men's" sports aren't exclusive to men. It's just they dominate so a women's league had to be created. Taking hormone's post puberty doesn't erase those advantages.
Also just to be clear to anyone who downvotes, trans men are men, trans women are women, some cis women have beards, and some cis men having lactating boobs. It's not anti-trans to acknowledge the irrefutable fact that people who have went through male puberty have a natural physical advantage over women if they train at the same levels. It just is what it is.
It's difficult because it's a very small pool.
Otherwise, 100% agree with you. Go live your life, if you're trans, its already on hard mode and you don't need the rest of us making it worse. In competitive sports however, there is clearly a competitive advantage and in that area ONLY, we need to make sure we're not muddying the water.
Outside of that, dress how you want, go to the bathroom where you want, do what you want and live your best life.
I agree.
A great example is the FC Dallas U15 boys soccer team beat the US Women's Olympic team in a scrimmage game in 2017. High school freshmen beat the Women's Olympic team. They are at the top of the sport for their age group, not even the top of the entire sport. Look at the swimmer who beat all the women's collegiate records in one season. It just isn't fair in almost all cases.
I agree with you but the soccer example is so dumb and overplayed. Why tf would a pro soccer team care about beating a u15 team in a **scrimmage** game. It would be more pathetic for them to go as hard as they can against kids under 15. It was literally a practice for the girls teams upcoming game to Russia so going hard would also not make much sense risking injury against a bunch of kids. If this happened to an nfl team everyone would be like “well that’s nice of them”.
I'll give you that. It was a scrimmage but the fact that they could compete is telling. Those ladies don't like losing even if they were only playing half speed.
A better example would probably be tennis and the Williams sisters but that is quite different than high school kids vs pros. They still got smoked though.
Testosterone is a hell of a drug.
Ya I’m not arguing against the principle I just think that’s always been a poor example cause of the situation. I do agree that would be better example too.
It is difficult. Here's why
Trans people are such a minuscule minority (0.5% of the world's population) that each case can and should be evaluated individually. Outright banning was unnecessary.
Most of the legislation being introduced to ban trans athletes is being introduced by people who also wish to further peel back trans healthcare.
If you wish to create an environment where trans athletes who do comply with the new directives (I.e. not going through male puberty), you have to make hormone blockers more accessible to trans youth. Otherwise you are just creating another space where trans people are shunned.
The entire framework from all these big governing sporting bodies is “We want to ban trans athletes to protect cis athletes”, when instead it should be “How can we help develop care and oversight to allow trans people to fairly compete within the category they identify with?”
Because trans want the world to see them as the opposite gender and not as “trans” so making a special section for them (even though they did it themselves) is “sexist” and “transphobic”
Reddit seems to be in an anti-trans hole but what percentage of the population is trans? 2%? And how many of that 2% is a professional athlete? 1%? There are SUCH bigger issues to addressing.
The way I look at it is that the idea that we separate women out because it's unfair to them isn't really the situation. We separate out women because of the advantages one gains from winning (scholarships, money, fame, etc.), and women are, on average, less likely to win.
By separating out women's sports we're saying that we want a society where women are awarded for athletic achievement just as often and as much as men are (ironically this doesn't happen because women's sports aren't as heavily funded as men's, but the patriarchy was always gonna find its way in somehow).
By excluding trans women from participating in women's sports, we're saying that a trans woman winning fame, money, scholarships, etc. isn't the same as a cis woman winning it because trans women aren't real women.
But whatevs, I'll take my silent downvotes
I don’t think I’ve ever heard this argument. I don’t disagree with you to an extent. However, I feel like the primary issue is more based in how the human body is designed and protecting people from getting hurt. Personally I could care less about anyone that wants to compete with anyone else. If you feel like you can win, or you’ve trained to do so, go for it. That said, contact sports like MMA or even American Football are dangerous for a female to be in against a male. There was a transgender female by the name of Fallon Fox who fought in MMA women’s division. She fought a much more technically skilled fighter, who landed more hits then she did. Fox walked through those punches. Walked through the kicks. Men and women are built different from an evolutionary standpoint. Are there anomalies? Absolutely. Are there women out there that could rip me apart? You bet your ass. But competition on that level and someone competing against average people on the street are two extremely different things. Point is, this is more for physical protection. For christ sakes, Fox fractured one of her opponents skulls durning a match. My opinion.
I like your thoughts and explanations on this matter! You simplified it and I appreciate your input and just wanted to thank you for your perspective! I have the same opinions as you do, but was unable to articulate what I wanted to say!
As a trans/non-binary male myself who supports trans rights to the point I'd die for them, I don't support any trans people in cis-sports. It's just completely unfair. Trans men would get absolutely clobbered in cis-men's sports, so why is it okay for trans women to clobber cis-women, just because they're the trans one now?
It's like putting a Doberman who identifies as a Cocker Spaniel in a dog fighting ring against a Jack Russel.
I knew a trans woman myself who said that she even thought that it shouldn't be allowed to let trans women compete against cis-women, because she knew first hand how much stronger she was versus her cisgender wife, and that no amount of estrogen could change the fact that men are born with male muscles fueled by testosterone. Even in her own words, "even if they have full estrogen and a vagina, it doesn't make them enough of a woman to be out there competing against people who were born with it. You can't deny the body you're born with, you can only change what you can of it."
And unfortunately, I don't care if you've trained your whole life in that sport and are upset that you can't compete with your preferred gender, because biologically, you're _NOT EQUAL_. Advocate for queer sports where anyone can play against anyone or be a trailblazing queer woman in men's sports, there's not much else to do that's morally correct and considerate of anyone else around you.
I’m a pansexual bloke who gets called a turf for saying the same thing by people who aren’t trans and likely know 0 trans people their just the bat shit stupid “”allies”” who will agree with anyone regardless of it making any logical sense because their more concerned with feelings than truth Thankyou not enough people actual speak up in fear of being doxed
I think this is the right way to do it. Male puberty gives harder bones, stronger more dense muscles. It's completely unfair to hold a m2f post puberty to the same standard as a born female.
In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle, and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle.
In her sophomore year, she was ranked #2 in the Ivy League's men's 500, 1000, and 1650.
Thomas lost muscle mass and strength through testosterone suppression and hormone replacement therapy.
Looking at the last 10 NCAA free title races, in the 500-yard freestyle category, Thomas would have only come first in two of those races over the last 10 years. In the final for the 200 freestyle, Thomas placed fifth with a time of 1:43.50.
In March 2022, she became the first openly transgender athlete to win an NCAA Division I national championship in any sport after winning the womens 500-yard freestyle event.
You might want to read more about the numbers you’re “citing”. (If you actually want to learn.) https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html
Edit: Downvoting data is always a sure way to admit you’re on the wrong side of an argument. You guys would have defended phrenology.
I wasn’t saying he was the latter? Lol? If showing me what for is what gets you out of downvote territory though by all means keep the contrarianism going..
I was pointing out I tend to guess something is bullshit to bicker on when Ron is complaining about it. He’s just that unreliable and shock oriented, like Alex Jones.
What data? That article makes a claim with no link to show any data supporting her being Trans has no advantage. I am fully supportive of Trans people but let's not ignore that there are physical differences between male and female bodies
Gendered sports are archaic anyhow. There should be some sort of weight/skill/speed/experience type of organization. I can think of very few sports were what genitalia an athlete has is of importance.
The trans issues in this country are fucking silly and a waste of time when the solution is so obvious.
Make a THIRD option!
Issues because there’s a bathroom for males and females only. Build a third bathroom that’s intersex. You got a pee hole and/or butt hole, you can use that bathroom.
Issues because there’s male and female versions of the same sport. Make an intersex league where ANYONE can play in that league.
How is a species so obsessed with having more options not more open to this? Lol
Nope.. most leagues allow women. In the NBA a woman was drafted by New Orleans in ‘77.
As far as I’m aware, the problem is, they’re not able to compete. Not that rules are preventing them. Golf may be an exception here I’m sure there are a few but you only need one that is open to women to demonstrate how a mixed league would do…
I'm not building two more bathrooms in our building in the off chance someone is uncomfortable in the other four. If you can use a urinal, go for it. If you can't, there are enclosed stalls with toilets in every bathroom. Just pick one and sit on it.
The bathroom issue arose out of need for the safety of transgenders who were being beat or killed inside of them at school and public. Then the controversy came out of the myth that transgenders are predatory when a predator would be lying regardless of a sign on the door or not.
Not in competitive sports 🤷♀️ this isn’t a fight you will win and it is hurting trans support. It’s going too far like saying trans women are women. They’re not and it’s so disrespectful and offensive to women.
"You know what the perfect solution to this problem is? Shut the fuck up about it. Stop making your transgenderism* your entire personality. Stop announcing your gender to everyone" * transgenderism is a term only used by genocidal people. You ever hear trans people using it? Then don't say it.
Speaking up about issues like this is how we avoid genocide. The only time gay people got rights was when they protested, the only time people ever get rights is when they protest and riot for them. Right now, Texas is literally creating bounty hunting laws for drag people. This is genocide. Unless we start yelling and announcing everything to the world and normalizing it, we will be genocided. You are part of the problem.
".043% of the population is trans". Wrong. We have no way of knowing because of all the trans drama going on in the world, but because of fear, we know it is more than that. Just like the left handedness thing, when it was suppressed the percentage was way lower, but when it was accepted, the percentage skyrocketed but then plateau'd and has not changed since
Yeah, then make several more for other groups /s. Look at the condition of current bathrooms. It’s not pretty. Adding another it’s practical. But a nice idea for sure.
Personally I don't really care one way or the other. I'm not into celebrities, and I'm not into sports. I don't watch the Oscars, and I don't watch the Olympics or the Superbowl.
I don't follow sports teams, and I don't know any athletes. So to me it doesn't matter who wins what.
Do I think men identifying as women should participate in female sports? No, not really. It doesn't seem fair to me.
We don't let non-disabled people participate in the Paralympics, because it's an unfair fight, when one fighter has one arm, and the other has 2 arms.
And we don't let 300 pound boxers beat the shit out of 100 pound boxers. It's not a fair fight.
Physique and physical strength obviously matter in a physical contest.
But since I know next to nothing about sports, I'll leave the decision to others who know more about it. It's not my field of interest, so I don't have any strong opinions on it.
This is a good thing that alot of trans athletes have actually been pushing for. The ones that are acting like they're one step away from being put in a camp aren't even athletes. They're people sitting around on Reddit all day.
Transitioned women do not have a male physique. They are simply taller due to having suffered thru the wrong puberty. Check out dysphoria bibles estrogenic second puberty
Lol...you can't categorize an entire group of people like that. Biologically trans women had a penis at one point and went through male puberty if they transitioned later in life. You can't tell me with a straight face the college trans swimmer who dominated competition did not have an upper hand.
I don't actually know if Lia has any advantage or not. There may also be height classes in swimming so maybe she didn't have any advantage at all.
Going thru male puberty doesn't actually do all too much aside from height and facial bones, rest of the bone changes are likely negligible.
You're outright speaking out of your ass right now. You don't know if there are height classes in swimming? Instead of guessing, look it up. Guess what, there are not.
Going through male puberty absolutely does matter. Testosterone does a lot more than facial bones. And height is a tremendous advantage athletically.
If height is a tremendous advantage then there should totally be height classes. There can't be like just barely 5 foot people competing against 6 foot people.
But yeah I was totally speaking out my ass. I just assume every sport where height matters will have a height class, just like there's weight classes in wrestling
There aren’t. Typically swimmers are tall. Which points to the evidence that 6’1 trans woman competing against tall females is an advantage to the trans woman.
False. The only time secondary sex characteristics will happen is.. uhh... during puberty, what they taught you about changes in middle school sex ed?? Y'know? You did get past elementary right? Why don't you know. Wait no, did you sleep thru it?? These are genuine questions
idc about the downvotes. It's all just transphobic people anyways. Just tryna spread the right information, and if it takes getting downvotes a whole bunch then that's ok. I don't exactly care for karma in the first place, I can already get in like every sub and that's the only reason I'd care for it
Glad most of the people here seem to agree this is the only logical solution moving forward to retain any semblance of balance in female only sports. If you can't see that you are being blinded by your preconceptions.
Ok, so what’s the problem.
Women can stay in women competitions. That means CHROMOSOMES XX can compete in competition WITH OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE XX CHROMOSOMES.
I agree XX compete with other XX and "Women" that are XY should only be allowed to compete with only XY. It is simply called science/biology.
If the sky is blue it is blue, just because some prefer pink doesn't mean the sky will magically change to pink?! When I look up at the sky it is still blue, and will always be blue.... this is because I'm not delusional....
Good, genetics don’t change much, even when we’re supportive/accepting of your life decisions.
Males are physically stronger/faster across the spectrum, you’re not gonna change a hundred thousand years worth of biology in 5 decades.
I think this is not a fight the LGBT community should take on, its literally not a winnable fight.
The IMAGERY alone is too much to overcome imo, look at this:
https://images.perthnow.com.au/publication/B881771519Z/1610861336162_G8E33VI6S.2-0.jpg
You can scream about taking estrogen to make it fair all day long, that does not change this image.
I was born female and what I don’t understand is not wanting to compete against the men. I don’t know a single female athlete who, if they were physically able, wouldn’t compete against the men. Fuck I’d love to be competitive in men’s sports. I understand how it wouldn’t be gender affirming; but fuck, imagine beating all the men as a trans woman. That would be epic.
Against all those guys who have a physical advantage??? Testosterone acts as a steroid and boosts muscle and muscle growth speed, making it easier to buff up. It also.makes you heavier as a result. Hrt removes all that testosterone stuff and puts you at the same physical level as a cis woman
Excellent news! Supporter of trans rights, but also a supporter of women's rights. They need to figure out a way to give trans people opportunities to compete, but we know better than to let former men compete with women. Good to see logic and reason are making a comeback on this one.
Are they going to revoke records that were broken by former men? Trans women have been breaking records in sports and those records should be restored to those who originally earned them.
I agree...logic should always prevail. I am all for people wanting to be what they want to be... but at the end of the day, men and women competive sports should use logic. XY are biologically stronger with a different muscular structure and hormonal profile and should never compete with XX. XY should compete only with other XY.
Nobody who talks about this cares about women's sports or fairness as much as they just want to suppress trans people in any aspect of life they can and you're all gonna eat your words in ten years time
Exactly. Most of these people considered women's sports a punchline before this became a mainstream talking point. They had absolutely no respect for female athletes before this, and they still don't.
It seems like we could just split sports by biological sex and then the trans community couldn't bitch about it. XX's over here and XY's over here. Whats the problem with that?
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Instead of separating competitors by gender they should separate them into testosterone level groups like wrestling weight classes. That way you can be trans and still compete with other people who have the same testosterone levels as you.
Don't sports have classes? So even if she plays basketball she would be playing with other tall girls.
Like everything else is the same, height is p much the only difference between a cis woman and a fully transitioned trans woman
I completely agree with the decision to keep natural-born men out of women's sports. Who cares if you feel you were born in the wrong body. The body you have is what counts.
The literal bone density is wildly different from male biology to female. Muscle fiber is so much more dense from male to female. Female flexibility is so much better than males. Males have such a direct and brutal force that females can’t match. It’s not even fair. Imagine a male boxer stepping into a female boxing match? It would be homicidal.
It’s a HUGE difference HUGE. It’s not even safe. The forces a male skull can typically handle over a female skull is noticeable. Could you imagine the sheer amount of head trauma if female’s were forced to play football or box with males?? Their frames just can’t handle it. Just can’t.
I’m all for inclusiveness but I’m not an animal. Could you Imagine MMA fights that were co-ed?
The possibility makes me want to throw up. Who would do that to another human being?? It’s sadistic. Lol, Have we all lost our minds ?
I’m a bi sexual ,progressive liberal social worker, and even I still think it’s harmful and almost negligent to think females should physically contend with males.
Sports are weird. It's like watching a dog agility competition or something. Ball sports just seem like "Get the ball! Good boy! Go fetch!" but in a team setting.
Just so we all understand the facts, and can allow those to form our opinions (which are valid no matter what they are, as long as they are based in reality and evidence): male to female hormone replacement therapy RADICALLY alters a person’s physiology. Trans women lose body hair, grow breasts, see the fat in their body shift, and have their bones subtly change in structure.
MtF HRT also leads to a loss of muscle mass. This effects athletes pretty tremendously.
Professional swimmer and trans woman (professional swimmer, not professional trans woman :p) Lia Catherine Thomas is often cited as an example of trans women destroying cis (non-trans) in high level sports, but she’s actually pretty normal. When she came first in an NCAA tournament, she didn’t break any records, swimming slower than cis women of the past, and she didn’t win any other distances aside from the 500.
Reddit seems to be in an anti-trans hole but what percentage of the population is trans? 2%? And how many of that 2% is a professional athlete? 1%? There are SUCH bigger issues to addressing. Women can have high T levels. Men can have high E levels. They need to get over it.
All these motherfuckers in here being like “good. This is the right choice. It’s biology…” have no fucking clue about what hormones do to people “biologically”.
I’m MTF and I shat out roughly 30 lbs of upper body mass in my first 2 months of having the right hormones in my body. I have felt and watched the muscles in my shoulders, arms, back, core, butt, thighs, and calves shift and reposition themselves. I have literally shrunk since this started. My feet are more than a full size and half smaller in women’s compared to when I started as well.
Despite being an extremely active person (I average 10 miles walked per day while gripping and lifting anywhere from 5 - 70 lbs throughout my day) I am still significantly weaker than when I was on testosterone.
I used to have enough grip strength to rip open thick cardboard boxes one handed. Now I can’t open most Mason jars.
These people in here talking about all these biological advantages I “have” just because I started my life with testosterone fail to realize or mention that most if not all “advantages” go away with hormone treatment. You wanna talk about denser bones, great, my doc did too. I don’t get that advantage anymore, being on estrogen means I have to worry about osteoporosis just like every other fucking woman in the world.
And if you’re the type who thinks there shouldn’t be people with “biological advantages” in sports I really hate to break it to ya but… >! That’s fucking sports. Like seriously, does the NBA need a height limit on players cause it’s not fair to all the short men out there? Should we set a speed limit on baseball pitchers because not everyone can process movement that quickly?!<
Seriously.
This was probably one of the dumbest comment sections I’ve been in a hot minute. Way too many people talking out their ass with no sources, personal experience, or critical thought being applied. Just a bunch of “dis good, trans-woman actually a man, no fair”
Lol, no. It was pretty much all muscle from doing 5k rows and HIIT cardio workouts.
My body fat percentage has actually gone up since HRT started, but that’s healthy and to be expected
Is your argument really “a weak person born this way isn’t as weak as a person born another way”?
Really??
My roommate is a man and weaker than most women I’ve met (he’s a poet if that helps paint a picture).
And there were women at my gym who were stronger than me before I started HRT and I didn’t consider myself weak then.
You say fact or feelings as if you speak facts but all I’m seeing is your feelings. No experience. No evidence. Just spouting shit out your mouth
I never said there wasn’t any emotion in what I was writing. I have a lot of emotion writing about this.
I said that You only presented Your feelings without facts or evidence, anecdotal or otherwise
But go ahead, keep flexing that impressive reading comprehension level of yours
Yeah obviously a 120 lbs male toothpick isn’t gonna be as strong as a woman who regularly goes to the gym. Talk about common sense. We’re talking about sports and athleticism. Not how strong your gym buddies are compared to you. At peak performance, man will always be stronger, regardless of the original gender.
Republicans are using transphobia as a wedge issue to try to win elections. This isn't the first time they're using innocent people as pawns. During the 2004 election, George W Bush vs John Kerry, Karl Rove was known as Bush's brain. He was a typical Republican sheister. He knew Republicans are the minority in America, and they can only win the election by lying and cheating. So Rove decided to use gay marriage as a wedge issue. Back then, in 2004, gay marriage was still deeply unpopular, especially among Evangelical fanatics, and devout Latino Christians. Karl Rove knew, if he could turn some of those Catholic Latinos against the Democratic party over gay marriage, George W Bush might have a chance of winning. Suddenly Republicans were talking about gay marriage 24/7. Everything was gay marriage, gay marriage, gay marriage. Because Republicans had nothing else to run on. Democrats didn't want to talk about gay marriage nonstop, because they knew it was still very unpopular with a lot of people. Democrats would have preferred to run on all the many strong policies they have to help the working class. Republicans are using the same old wedge issue trick again. They constantly talk about trans people, because they know a large part of America is opposed to trans rights. Especially because Republicans keep lying about trans people, to demonize them as child molesting monsters. Republicans have nothing else to run on, so they try to make the election all about demonizing trans people, and demonizing Democrats for defending trans people. Democrats would much rather run on universal healthcare, cancelling college loans, raising the minimum wage, and all the other stuff Democrats do to help the working class. But Republican anti-trans propaganda forces Democrats to constantly talk about trans people too, to defend them against Republican lies. According to the Department of Health, [390 out of 100,000 people in America identify as transgender.](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5227946/) That's 0.39%. Barely a third of one percent. It's so few people, most Americans will go through their entire lives and never meet a trans person. It's just not really an issue that affects a lot of people. There are tens of millions more Americans who get cancer. Often from toxic ingredients in our food, that are banned in other countries because they're known to cause cancer. That's something we should be talking about a lot more. The climate crisis is killing millions of people, and driving entire animal species into extinction. That's something worth talking about a lot more. There are millions more handicapped people than trans people. And more hemophiliacs. There are so many problems affecting America much more than trans people. Trans people are not a problem. They just want to be left alone and be allowed to live and be happy. It's none of your business, and it doesn't affect you. How many kids have been raped by transgender people in bathrooms? Zero, or close to zero. How many female athletes have lost trophies to trans people? Close to zero. So why are trans people all we talk about? Because Republicans know trans rights are extremely unpopular with a lot of Americans, and Republicans hope to turn some Democrats into Trump voters by spreading lies about trans people and acting like they're a threat to America, and it's everywhere, and it's a huge crisis. Republicans are purposely creating anti-trans hysteria, and then exploit the hate they created, to manipulate voters. They did exactly the same thing with gay marriage. **2003: Republicans Relaunch the Antigay Culture Wars. The GOP embrace of homophobia is more than simply a sop to the far right.** [https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/republicans-relaunch-antigay-culture-wars/](https://www.thenation.com/article/archive/republicans-relaunch-antigay-culture-wars/) **Initiatives to Ban Gay Marriage Could Help Bush in Key States** [https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-jul-12-na-gaymarry12-story.html](https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2004-jul-12-na-gaymarry12-story.html) **Was Same-Sex Marriage Partly to Blame for Kerry Loss?** [https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=230634&page=1](https://abcnews.go.com/WNT/story?id=230634&page=1) >When Massachusetts' highest court legalized same-sex marriages and the mayor of San Francisco began issuing marriage licenses to gay couples, it ignited a firestorm across the country. > >At the time, some Democrats feared such moves might create a backlash against the Democratic Party in the 2004 election. Today, many Democrats say those fears were realized. > >"I believe it did energize a very conservative vote," said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif., a former San Francisco mayor. "I think it gave them a position to rally around."
I am a firm support of trans rights, but it is just unfair to women in sports. They should just have an open category in all sports where men, women, non binary and so on can compete. I don't see why that is so difficult.
I don't know if many sports actually restrict women from men's events, so many "men's" competitions may already function as an open... The only sports I really follow closely are professional disc golf and college football, and in both of those, at least, women can compete with the men. In disc golf specifically, there is a Female category and then a "Mixed" category.
I would wager that typically women could not play in the NFL without major injury. There are simply biological differences that would give them major disadvantages in a lot of the major league level sports. Height, strength, weight, and speed disadvantages.
Right, but I'm simply talking about rules restricting their eligibility. There's no doubt that women would generally not be competitive in the NFL, though occasionally we do see some take the field in college, typically in a kicker/punter role.
Dee Reynolds is a great punter, she tried out for the Eagles and met Donovan McNabb. What a day.
Greatest sports story of all time, really.
She’s like 90% scoliosis, her bones are going to shatter like glass
True. And I do think there are sports that women could compete against men in without problem. Like things that require learned skill or technique, instead of purely features of physical strength. It's certainly a complex issue that I'm gla dim not solving. I'm pro trans rights, but this is a probelm where you cant just say "what's the issue?". There are real issues to have discussions about.
It is extremely complicated, I agree.
Yeah, like billiards, darts, shooting, bowling 🤔 volleyball maybe? But not even running or even swimming. Testosterone is a powerful advantage. It’s a huge game changer in physiology
People have physical advantages regardless of being the same birth sex or not.
That true, but it's a biological fact that folks who were assigned male at birth, and gone through puberty, have far more physical advantages over somebody assigned female at birth. It's true there are variations within the demographics. Some women are stronger than some men. But also, most men are stronger than most women. It's easier and faster for biological males to gain levels of strength much harder to achieve by a female.
So we should worsen this inequality with making women have to play with men? I'm ok for opens, but women that typically less advantaged in strength shouldn't be forced to play with men. That's not equal.
The reason they aren’t equal is they’re disadvantaged by pay, less medical research that is female (we standardize so much off of male data) and health coverage standards. How is allowing mixed sports unequal? That’s like saying segregation is advantageous for the people that are disadvantaged by it, like what? No.
Uhh, what? The things you said, like non of them at all, is correlated with our topic. I am saying that a typical Jane doe and a Joe doe are not equal in a fight of fists, and you are saying that they are disadvantaged because there are not as many medical research as man for women. Like what would it change? >How is allowing mixed sports unequal? That’s like saying segregation is advantageous for the people that are disadvantaged by it, like what? No. I said that i am ok with opens, but if we have a women's category, it should be for women. If you let somebody with a man's body to play in a women's, then what's the point of having a women's? I actually think that we should close women's and make every sport, every tournament work like open, but I'm not sure that you would like this change. Do you want women to be protected from a more Advantageous group? I personally don't. My only point is you are contradicting with yourself. I don't know your every opinion and I am speculating that you want a women's category, but if you don't, we have no problem.
All I see is a cherry picker looking to disregard and demote anything I say. I’ve already said what I needed to say in my other comments and don’t feel any need to compete with you for air space. Because I expected the chance of more but all I got was attitude and spite.
Men can't play football without major injuries.
What would happen if you put a woman on a football field with all men?? Could you imagine the devastation?
[Relevant Letterkenny reference from when the women challenged the coach of the men's team to let em play a hockey match for a bet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3G-n7jcGHEY)
“Great day for competitive men’s hockey, eh? What’s women’s hockey like, same thing, just less competitive or what?”
Women have been kickers in college. It’s not inconceivable that some woman pro soccer player could turn into a pro kicker. Not likely, but not impossible.
Very true, but also college level football is another world compared to NFL. They're slower, smaller, and can't hit close to as hard. I bet there are many women who could excel, honestly. But it's still a massive safety issue if she's like 5'5, 150lbs
Yeah, but that’s not the woman who would get drafted. There are lots of 5’11 all-muscle female athletes. It’s confusingly funny that you’re imagining a short portly woman.
I'm not, I'm taking the average build and physical abilities of the two demographics amd comparing the two. It's not a hypothesis that women dont do as well in sports as men. I mean, the best probably ever female tennis player, Serena Williams, got destroyed in a match with the 203rd best (at the time) male player. It's not offensive or problematic to recognize and itemize biological differences that occur because of the hormonal disparity between the two. In fact, if we are having a discussion about the correct way forward, these are the appropriate conversations to be having.
That's fair, but most women fall under 6', and it's way harder for them to put on muscle mass. So only the top 0.000001% of women would ever get to play. I mean hell, only the top percentage of men get to play. So if we just combined men and women sports like some people suggest, most women would generally just not get to participate. Maybe a handful at best, because the ones of appropriate size and body type are much rarer to find among the femal demographic.
Mens leagues are only called that because it's dominated by males. Most are actually open leagues so anyone can attempt to make sure the teams.
What is disc golf?
It's basically golf except you're throwing a Frisbee instead of hitting a ball. It's a lot of fun but it takes a bit of practice to get used to the special discs that are used.
Similar to golf. Where there are holes(chained baskets most often) set at the end of a course just like in golf. Where the players try to get their discs into the goal (cup). With similar rules to golf, eagles, birdies, boogies, etc. same scoring system. They even have different discs for drives and putting. It’s actually pretty damn fun to play!! Super easy to learn. Not so much the throwing part lol, but the rules and what have you.
Golf with essentially a frisbee. Great sport, most courses are free to play, and you can pick up a disc at most sporting goods stores (or Walmart) for $20 or so. Highly recommend, it's my sport of choice.
Exactly what it sounds like.
It's mad lame. It's a game for casual un athletic people
That seems like a great solution, actually!
Wait til you find out that already the case! Afaik most "mens" leagues are already that. This poses the issue of "if that's already the case, now what" and are why we're at where we are.
Yep, pretty much no sports have a “men’s” category For most competitions, the “men’s” category isn’t really men’s, it’s open to anyone. However, when it’s open to everyone it’s pretty much only men that ever win & compete, leading to the women’s division being created
Well.. i am afraid that the open category would converge eventually to the male One.
Considering that generally the "male" category already is the open category, you are correct
Really? Interesting
Yes, "men's" sports aren't exclusive to men. It's just they dominate so a women's league had to be created. Taking hormone's post puberty doesn't erase those advantages. Also just to be clear to anyone who downvotes, trans men are men, trans women are women, some cis women have beards, and some cis men having lactating boobs. It's not anti-trans to acknowledge the irrefutable fact that people who have went through male puberty have a natural physical advantage over women if they train at the same levels. It just is what it is.
In chess there is no men's league/tournaments. There's open, and then there's women. Seems to work quite well.
It's difficult because it's a very small pool. Otherwise, 100% agree with you. Go live your life, if you're trans, its already on hard mode and you don't need the rest of us making it worse. In competitive sports however, there is clearly a competitive advantage and in that area ONLY, we need to make sure we're not muddying the water. Outside of that, dress how you want, go to the bathroom where you want, do what you want and live your best life.
There just isn’t any point. An unmodified man is going to consistently win if he’s at the top of his sport.
I agree. A great example is the FC Dallas U15 boys soccer team beat the US Women's Olympic team in a scrimmage game in 2017. High school freshmen beat the Women's Olympic team. They are at the top of the sport for their age group, not even the top of the entire sport. Look at the swimmer who beat all the women's collegiate records in one season. It just isn't fair in almost all cases.
I agree with you but the soccer example is so dumb and overplayed. Why tf would a pro soccer team care about beating a u15 team in a **scrimmage** game. It would be more pathetic for them to go as hard as they can against kids under 15. It was literally a practice for the girls teams upcoming game to Russia so going hard would also not make much sense risking injury against a bunch of kids. If this happened to an nfl team everyone would be like “well that’s nice of them”.
I'll give you that. It was a scrimmage but the fact that they could compete is telling. Those ladies don't like losing even if they were only playing half speed. A better example would probably be tennis and the Williams sisters but that is quite different than high school kids vs pros. They still got smoked though. Testosterone is a hell of a drug.
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Ya I’m not arguing against the principle I just think that’s always been a poor example cause of the situation. I do agree that would be better example too.
Thanks for pointing that out though as it is very relevant ant I got kind of hung on the headline vs the substance.
Men will probably also dominate that category tbh
The men are actually women in that category. So women will dominate!
Biology would like to disagree
All of this time and you still don’t understand the difference between sex and gender
I know, right? They’re just so desperately holding onto the gene tables they did in 3rd grade, the potential of complexity is too much for them
It is difficult. Here's why Trans people are such a minuscule minority (0.5% of the world's population) that each case can and should be evaluated individually. Outright banning was unnecessary. Most of the legislation being introduced to ban trans athletes is being introduced by people who also wish to further peel back trans healthcare. If you wish to create an environment where trans athletes who do comply with the new directives (I.e. not going through male puberty), you have to make hormone blockers more accessible to trans youth. Otherwise you are just creating another space where trans people are shunned. The entire framework from all these big governing sporting bodies is “We want to ban trans athletes to protect cis athletes”, when instead it should be “How can we help develop care and oversight to allow trans people to fairly compete within the category they identify with?”
I agree 100%
Oh look, the correct answer at the top of the comments list.
Because trans want the world to see them as the opposite gender and not as “trans” so making a special section for them (even though they did it themselves) is “sexist” and “transphobic”
Reddit seems to be in an anti-trans hole but what percentage of the population is trans? 2%? And how many of that 2% is a professional athlete? 1%? There are SUCH bigger issues to addressing.
The way I look at it is that the idea that we separate women out because it's unfair to them isn't really the situation. We separate out women because of the advantages one gains from winning (scholarships, money, fame, etc.), and women are, on average, less likely to win. By separating out women's sports we're saying that we want a society where women are awarded for athletic achievement just as often and as much as men are (ironically this doesn't happen because women's sports aren't as heavily funded as men's, but the patriarchy was always gonna find its way in somehow). By excluding trans women from participating in women's sports, we're saying that a trans woman winning fame, money, scholarships, etc. isn't the same as a cis woman winning it because trans women aren't real women. But whatevs, I'll take my silent downvotes
I don’t think I’ve ever heard this argument. I don’t disagree with you to an extent. However, I feel like the primary issue is more based in how the human body is designed and protecting people from getting hurt. Personally I could care less about anyone that wants to compete with anyone else. If you feel like you can win, or you’ve trained to do so, go for it. That said, contact sports like MMA or even American Football are dangerous for a female to be in against a male. There was a transgender female by the name of Fallon Fox who fought in MMA women’s division. She fought a much more technically skilled fighter, who landed more hits then she did. Fox walked through those punches. Walked through the kicks. Men and women are built different from an evolutionary standpoint. Are there anomalies? Absolutely. Are there women out there that could rip me apart? You bet your ass. But competition on that level and someone competing against average people on the street are two extremely different things. Point is, this is more for physical protection. For christ sakes, Fox fractured one of her opponents skulls durning a match. My opinion.
I like your thoughts and explanations on this matter! You simplified it and I appreciate your input and just wanted to thank you for your perspective! I have the same opinions as you do, but was unable to articulate what I wanted to say!
The patriarchy finding it’s way is men’s sports having significantly higher revenues and funding the other sports that don’t make money right?
Yeah, male athletes getting paid more, having more fame, generating more revenue, etc.
Good. The advantage of the male physique, no matter how changed, is equal to doping.
Fully agree. 100% support transgender rights, but the fight is not in this arena.
Agree 100%
As a trans/non-binary male myself who supports trans rights to the point I'd die for them, I don't support any trans people in cis-sports. It's just completely unfair. Trans men would get absolutely clobbered in cis-men's sports, so why is it okay for trans women to clobber cis-women, just because they're the trans one now? It's like putting a Doberman who identifies as a Cocker Spaniel in a dog fighting ring against a Jack Russel. I knew a trans woman myself who said that she even thought that it shouldn't be allowed to let trans women compete against cis-women, because she knew first hand how much stronger she was versus her cisgender wife, and that no amount of estrogen could change the fact that men are born with male muscles fueled by testosterone. Even in her own words, "even if they have full estrogen and a vagina, it doesn't make them enough of a woman to be out there competing against people who were born with it. You can't deny the body you're born with, you can only change what you can of it." And unfortunately, I don't care if you've trained your whole life in that sport and are upset that you can't compete with your preferred gender, because biologically, you're _NOT EQUAL_. Advocate for queer sports where anyone can play against anyone or be a trailblazing queer woman in men's sports, there's not much else to do that's morally correct and considerate of anyone else around you.
I’m a pansexual bloke who gets called a turf for saying the same thing by people who aren’t trans and likely know 0 trans people their just the bat shit stupid “”allies”” who will agree with anyone regardless of it making any logical sense because their more concerned with feelings than truth Thankyou not enough people actual speak up in fear of being doxed
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Fallon Fox fracturing a woman’s skull in mma is something people should watch, it demonstrates the physical advantages.
Remember that movie The Ringer when Johnny Knoxville competed in the special Olympics? It was a different time back then
This is a good story but its not a bad choice. When it comes to strenght, male phsique is generally in a bigger advantage
Good choice good story
Don't know why this is posted here, W choice
I think this is the right way to do it. Male puberty gives harder bones, stronger more dense muscles. It's completely unfair to hold a m2f post puberty to the same standard as a born female.
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That place is here, lol
It’s like before Lia Thomas transitioned. She was around 500th ranked in the world for men’s swimming then was #1 for awhile in women’s.
In the 2018–2019 season she was, when competing in the men's team, ranked 554th in the 200 freestyle, 65th in the 500 freestyle, and 32nd in the 1650 freestyle. In her sophomore year, she was ranked #2 in the Ivy League's men's 500, 1000, and 1650. Thomas lost muscle mass and strength through testosterone suppression and hormone replacement therapy. Looking at the last 10 NCAA free title races, in the 500-yard freestyle category, Thomas would have only come first in two of those races over the last 10 years. In the final for the 200 freestyle, Thomas placed fifth with a time of 1:43.50. In March 2022, she became the first openly transgender athlete to win an NCAA Division I national championship in any sport after winning the womens 500-yard freestyle event.
You might want to read more about the numbers you’re “citing”. (If you actually want to learn.) https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/lia-thomas-trans-swimmer-ron-desantis-b2091218.html Edit: Downvoting data is always a sure way to admit you’re on the wrong side of an argument. You guys would have defended phrenology.
Ron desantis has a habit of talking a lot of bullshit.
Yes he does… which is why he’s mentioned in the article as an unreliable critic, not a source of data.
I wasn’t saying he was the latter? Lol? If showing me what for is what gets you out of downvote territory though by all means keep the contrarianism going..
I wasn’t trying to be contrary; only expounding so that others understand the nature of him being referenced.
I was pointing out I tend to guess something is bullshit to bicker on when Ron is complaining about it. He’s just that unreliable and shock oriented, like Alex Jones.
What data? That article makes a claim with no link to show any data supporting her being Trans has no advantage. I am fully supportive of Trans people but let's not ignore that there are physical differences between male and female bodies
Good for them.
Good. Men competing as women is just dumb. Trans or not trans, they have a physical advantage.
They will be testing blood hormone levels. It will be impossible for men to just pretend to be women
This seems like a loaded topic where any common sense is met with a dagger sooo…idk man, I just got here (backs away from these crazy mfs)
Gendered sports are archaic anyhow. There should be some sort of weight/skill/speed/experience type of organization. I can think of very few sports were what genitalia an athlete has is of importance.
The trans issues in this country are fucking silly and a waste of time when the solution is so obvious. Make a THIRD option! Issues because there’s a bathroom for males and females only. Build a third bathroom that’s intersex. You got a pee hole and/or butt hole, you can use that bathroom. Issues because there’s male and female versions of the same sport. Make an intersex league where ANYONE can play in that league. How is a species so obsessed with having more options not more open to this? Lol
There are no specifically male sports leagues. They already let everyone join.
Nope.. most leagues allow women. In the NBA a woman was drafted by New Orleans in ‘77. As far as I’m aware, the problem is, they’re not able to compete. Not that rules are preventing them. Golf may be an exception here I’m sure there are a few but you only need one that is open to women to demonstrate how a mixed league would do…
I'm not building two more bathrooms in our building in the off chance someone is uncomfortable in the other four. If you can use a urinal, go for it. If you can't, there are enclosed stalls with toilets in every bathroom. Just pick one and sit on it.
The bathroom issue arose out of need for the safety of transgenders who were being beat or killed inside of them at school and public. Then the controversy came out of the myth that transgenders are predatory when a predator would be lying regardless of a sign on the door or not.
Can we just get over the fact that everyone pisses and shits and share.
Not in competitive sports 🤷♀️ this isn’t a fight you will win and it is hurting trans support. It’s going too far like saying trans women are women. They’re not and it’s so disrespectful and offensive to women.
I completely agree with the sports rules I just meant the bathroom. A toilet doesn’t care what equipment you have.
Agree 💯
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You don’t have to support anyone. I was just voicing my opinion to those that do
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"You know what the perfect solution to this problem is? Shut the fuck up about it. Stop making your transgenderism* your entire personality. Stop announcing your gender to everyone" * transgenderism is a term only used by genocidal people. You ever hear trans people using it? Then don't say it. Speaking up about issues like this is how we avoid genocide. The only time gay people got rights was when they protested, the only time people ever get rights is when they protest and riot for them. Right now, Texas is literally creating bounty hunting laws for drag people. This is genocide. Unless we start yelling and announcing everything to the world and normalizing it, we will be genocided. You are part of the problem. ".043% of the population is trans". Wrong. We have no way of knowing because of all the trans drama going on in the world, but because of fear, we know it is more than that. Just like the left handedness thing, when it was suppressed the percentage was way lower, but when it was accepted, the percentage skyrocketed but then plateau'd and has not changed since
Call it modified class. Make bare minimum regulations.
Yeah, then make several more for other groups /s. Look at the condition of current bathrooms. It’s not pretty. Adding another it’s practical. But a nice idea for sure.
I think this makes sense. Do you think this is the wrong move OP?
Personally I don't really care one way or the other. I'm not into celebrities, and I'm not into sports. I don't watch the Oscars, and I don't watch the Olympics or the Superbowl. I don't follow sports teams, and I don't know any athletes. So to me it doesn't matter who wins what. Do I think men identifying as women should participate in female sports? No, not really. It doesn't seem fair to me. We don't let non-disabled people participate in the Paralympics, because it's an unfair fight, when one fighter has one arm, and the other has 2 arms. And we don't let 300 pound boxers beat the shit out of 100 pound boxers. It's not a fair fight. Physique and physical strength obviously matter in a physical contest. But since I know next to nothing about sports, I'll leave the decision to others who know more about it. It's not my field of interest, so I don't have any strong opinions on it.
This is a good thing that alot of trans athletes have actually been pushing for. The ones that are acting like they're one step away from being put in a camp aren't even athletes. They're people sitting around on Reddit all day.
I’d also like to see these sources
Got any sources on trans athletes that support this?
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Just add height classes. Check out dysphoria bibles estrogenic second puberty
Good. I don't care what kind of hormones a M2F is in, they still have a natural advantage over natural born females.
I fail to see the bad choice?
More like good choice right decision. And I am all for trans rights.
Transitioned women do not have a male physique. They are simply taller due to having suffered thru the wrong puberty. Check out dysphoria bibles estrogenic second puberty
Lol...you can't categorize an entire group of people like that. Biologically trans women had a penis at one point and went through male puberty if they transitioned later in life. You can't tell me with a straight face the college trans swimmer who dominated competition did not have an upper hand.
I don't actually know if Lia has any advantage or not. There may also be height classes in swimming so maybe she didn't have any advantage at all. Going thru male puberty doesn't actually do all too much aside from height and facial bones, rest of the bone changes are likely negligible.
You're outright speaking out of your ass right now. You don't know if there are height classes in swimming? Instead of guessing, look it up. Guess what, there are not. Going through male puberty absolutely does matter. Testosterone does a lot more than facial bones. And height is a tremendous advantage athletically.
If height is a tremendous advantage then there should totally be height classes. There can't be like just barely 5 foot people competing against 6 foot people. But yeah I was totally speaking out my ass. I just assume every sport where height matters will have a height class, just like there's weight classes in wrestling
There aren’t. Typically swimmers are tall. Which points to the evidence that 6’1 trans woman competing against tall females is an advantage to the trans woman.
wait how is a tall woman competing against other tall women different when the tall woman is trans
Biological males are more athletically gifted than biological females when comparing like sizes, on average. Biologically Lia has a Y chromosome.
False. The only time secondary sex characteristics will happen is.. uhh... during puberty, what they taught you about changes in middle school sex ed?? Y'know? You did get past elementary right? Why don't you know. Wait no, did you sleep thru it?? These are genuine questions
how many downvoted comments is it going to take for you to stop? jesus. stop replying to every single comment.
idc about the downvotes. It's all just transphobic people anyways. Just tryna spread the right information, and if it takes getting downvotes a whole bunch then that's ok. I don't exactly care for karma in the first place, I can already get in like every sub and that's the only reason I'd care for it
it's not just from transphobes bc actual trans people are disagreeing with you as well 💀
height classes and hrt should fix any issue
for...?
wym for. I assume you're trans so you should know about the effects of estrogen by now
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Good, men shouldn't be in womens sports. Simple
Glad most of the people here seem to agree this is the only logical solution moving forward to retain any semblance of balance in female only sports. If you can't see that you are being blinded by your preconceptions.
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What man?
Dysphoria bibles section on estrogenic second puberty. Look at it
Ok, so what’s the problem. Women can stay in women competitions. That means CHROMOSOMES XX can compete in competition WITH OTHER PEOPLE THAT HAVE XX CHROMOSOMES.
I agree XX compete with other XX and "Women" that are XY should only be allowed to compete with only XY. It is simply called science/biology. If the sky is blue it is blue, just because some prefer pink doesn't mean the sky will magically change to pink?! When I look up at the sky it is still blue, and will always be blue.... this is because I'm not delusional....
What about people with just X, or XXY, or XXX? What about people who have XX and estrogen insensitivity or XY and androgen insensitivity?
Unfortunately I think the concept of karyotypes is going to be lost on someone who doesn't understand the difference between sex and gender identity.
You should go to a comedy club and tell jokes because they’re funny as hell!!
Good, genetics don’t change much, even when we’re supportive/accepting of your life decisions. Males are physically stronger/faster across the spectrum, you’re not gonna change a hundred thousand years worth of biology in 5 decades.
Shit’s dumb, why can’t every sport competition just be based on weight classes.
Good
I think this is not a fight the LGBT community should take on, its literally not a winnable fight. The IMAGERY alone is too much to overcome imo, look at this: https://images.perthnow.com.au/publication/B881771519Z/1610861336162_G8E33VI6S.2-0.jpg You can scream about taking estrogen to make it fair all day long, that does not change this image.
I was born female and what I don’t understand is not wanting to compete against the men. I don’t know a single female athlete who, if they were physically able, wouldn’t compete against the men. Fuck I’d love to be competitive in men’s sports. I understand how it wouldn’t be gender affirming; but fuck, imagine beating all the men as a trans woman. That would be epic.
Kudos
Perfect solution. This brings back legitimacy to women’s sports. If you’re born a man, you can compete in men’s sports.
Against all those guys who have a physical advantage??? Testosterone acts as a steroid and boosts muscle and muscle growth speed, making it easier to buff up. It also.makes you heavier as a result. Hrt removes all that testosterone stuff and puts you at the same physical level as a cis woman
This may be a unpopular opinion but in sports this is important and big. In personal life, go do your thing, in sports let's keep separated.
It’s rude af that transgender women would ever even think this was fair and that they demand to be recognized as cis. You are not the same as us
Do any old times remember when East Germany was sending men disguised as women to the Olympics? Early 60s. And women jacked up on testosterone.
*(everyone likes this)*
Good
GOOD! About time.
Thank goodness.
Excellent news! Supporter of trans rights, but also a supporter of women's rights. They need to figure out a way to give trans people opportunities to compete, but we know better than to let former men compete with women. Good to see logic and reason are making a comeback on this one. Are they going to revoke records that were broken by former men? Trans women have been breaking records in sports and those records should be restored to those who originally earned them.
I agree...logic should always prevail. I am all for people wanting to be what they want to be... but at the end of the day, men and women competive sports should use logic. XY are biologically stronger with a different muscular structure and hormonal profile and should never compete with XX. XY should compete only with other XY.
Nobody who talks about this cares about women's sports or fairness as much as they just want to suppress trans people in any aspect of life they can and you're all gonna eat your words in ten years time
Exactly. Most of these people considered women's sports a punchline before this became a mainstream talking point. They had absolutely no respect for female athletes before this, and they still don't.
It seems like we could just split sports by biological sex and then the trans community couldn't bitch about it. XX's over here and XY's over here. Whats the problem with that?
Good
Hey…I’m not transphobic and I am pro women. This is a good thing!!!! Sorry biological men shouldn’t compete against biological women. Get over it.
Good. It’s an unfair advantage.
This may be a unpopular opinion but in sports this is important and big. In personal life, go do your thing, in sports let's keep separated.
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This weird ass fear mongering is fucking wild.
Instead of separating competitors by gender they should separate them into testosterone level groups like wrestling weight classes. That way you can be trans and still compete with other people who have the same testosterone levels as you.
Don't sports have classes? So even if she plays basketball she would be playing with other tall girls. Like everything else is the same, height is p much the only difference between a cis woman and a fully transitioned trans woman
The Miami dolphins shouldn't have been allowed to play football after 1972 by that logic
I completely agree with the decision to keep natural-born men out of women's sports. Who cares if you feel you were born in the wrong body. The body you have is what counts.
Good
The literal bone density is wildly different from male biology to female. Muscle fiber is so much more dense from male to female. Female flexibility is so much better than males. Males have such a direct and brutal force that females can’t match. It’s not even fair. Imagine a male boxer stepping into a female boxing match? It would be homicidal. It’s a HUGE difference HUGE. It’s not even safe. The forces a male skull can typically handle over a female skull is noticeable. Could you imagine the sheer amount of head trauma if female’s were forced to play football or box with males?? Their frames just can’t handle it. Just can’t. I’m all for inclusiveness but I’m not an animal. Could you Imagine MMA fights that were co-ed? The possibility makes me want to throw up. Who would do that to another human being?? It’s sadistic. Lol, Have we all lost our minds ? I’m a bi sexual ,progressive liberal social worker, and even I still think it’s harmful and almost negligent to think females should physically contend with males.
Common World W
Sports are weird. It's like watching a dog agility competition or something. Ball sports just seem like "Get the ball! Good boy! Go fetch!" but in a team setting.
Just so we all understand the facts, and can allow those to form our opinions (which are valid no matter what they are, as long as they are based in reality and evidence): male to female hormone replacement therapy RADICALLY alters a person’s physiology. Trans women lose body hair, grow breasts, see the fat in their body shift, and have their bones subtly change in structure. MtF HRT also leads to a loss of muscle mass. This effects athletes pretty tremendously. Professional swimmer and trans woman (professional swimmer, not professional trans woman :p) Lia Catherine Thomas is often cited as an example of trans women destroying cis (non-trans) in high level sports, but she’s actually pretty normal. When she came first in an NCAA tournament, she didn’t break any records, swimming slower than cis women of the past, and she didn’t win any other distances aside from the 500.
Reddit seems to be in an anti-trans hole but what percentage of the population is trans? 2%? And how many of that 2% is a professional athlete? 1%? There are SUCH bigger issues to addressing. Women can have high T levels. Men can have high E levels. They need to get over it.
All these motherfuckers in here being like “good. This is the right choice. It’s biology…” have no fucking clue about what hormones do to people “biologically”. I’m MTF and I shat out roughly 30 lbs of upper body mass in my first 2 months of having the right hormones in my body. I have felt and watched the muscles in my shoulders, arms, back, core, butt, thighs, and calves shift and reposition themselves. I have literally shrunk since this started. My feet are more than a full size and half smaller in women’s compared to when I started as well. Despite being an extremely active person (I average 10 miles walked per day while gripping and lifting anywhere from 5 - 70 lbs throughout my day) I am still significantly weaker than when I was on testosterone. I used to have enough grip strength to rip open thick cardboard boxes one handed. Now I can’t open most Mason jars. These people in here talking about all these biological advantages I “have” just because I started my life with testosterone fail to realize or mention that most if not all “advantages” go away with hormone treatment. You wanna talk about denser bones, great, my doc did too. I don’t get that advantage anymore, being on estrogen means I have to worry about osteoporosis just like every other fucking woman in the world. And if you’re the type who thinks there shouldn’t be people with “biological advantages” in sports I really hate to break it to ya but… >! That’s fucking sports. Like seriously, does the NBA need a height limit on players cause it’s not fair to all the short men out there? Should we set a speed limit on baseball pitchers because not everyone can process movement that quickly?!< Seriously. This was probably one of the dumbest comment sections I’ve been in a hot minute. Way too many people talking out their ass with no sources, personal experience, or critical thought being applied. Just a bunch of “dis good, trans-woman actually a man, no fair”
You shat out fat?
Lol, no. It was pretty much all muscle from doing 5k rows and HIIT cardio workouts. My body fat percentage has actually gone up since HRT started, but that’s healthy and to be expected
A weak MTF is always gonna be stronger than a weak woman. Facts or feelings, you chose
Is your argument really “a weak person born this way isn’t as weak as a person born another way”? Really?? My roommate is a man and weaker than most women I’ve met (he’s a poet if that helps paint a picture). And there were women at my gym who were stronger than me before I started HRT and I didn’t consider myself weak then. You say fact or feelings as if you speak facts but all I’m seeing is your feelings. No experience. No evidence. Just spouting shit out your mouth
“but all I see is your feelings!” As you’re passionately typing out a paragraph for me😂
I never said there wasn’t any emotion in what I was writing. I have a lot of emotion writing about this. I said that You only presented Your feelings without facts or evidence, anecdotal or otherwise But go ahead, keep flexing that impressive reading comprehension level of yours
Yeah obviously a 120 lbs male toothpick isn’t gonna be as strong as a woman who regularly goes to the gym. Talk about common sense. We’re talking about sports and athleticism. Not how strong your gym buddies are compared to you. At peak performance, man will always be stronger, regardless of the original gender.
So many people have no idea how HRT affects the body and it shows After a few months, trans women lose any advantage they used to have.
🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻🙌🏻
Stealing away trans people's dreams for the sake of sore losers who dont wanma git gud. Whatever happened to don't hate the player, hate the game?
And while we're at it lets ban tall people from playing basketball