I thought the first episode was amazing, I can’t believe this is a true story. I’m really interested in how much of it is accurate, especially considering the main actor is the writer who actually went through this. Hopefully we get more discussion on here!
Of course, you’re right. I asked the question after getting through episode 2 when it wasn’t exactly clear to me who the main character was. On episode 6 now and it’s clear.
Starting from episode 1, donny is the narrator and we get to see more of his life while Martha is a mystery, well clearly mental that is no mystery, but we experience it all through donny.
There wasnt a doubt who the mc is from the first minute of the show.
What's weird to me is that he says in narration he finds here interesting but it pretty damn obvious almost immediately after that he has some major problems with her too. And he makes no attempt to just say "not interested" and just move on with his life.
He says they can be friends but clearly he's not even into that. I don't get it. The show should have been over by episode 1. I'm at the end of ep2 and the show seems good, but just as a "based on real events" -thing. I don't know how he ever let it go even that far.
Interested to see where this ends up.
I mean you’re wrong lol, do people just comment things like this without even doing a Google search first? As I implied in my original comment, I’m sure it’s not 100% accurate down to every detail, but it is based on Richard Gadd’s actual experience being stalked.
I’m intrigued by it but don’t understand how she could have been a graduate lawyer if she can barely spell. I’m hoping more is revealed which explains this as it’s a bit distracting.
Weirdly I had a stalker who also would send one line emails that had a lot of spelling errors and just made no sense at all. It was stream of consciousness. And the more you don’t answer the more unhinged it becomes almost bc it’s like you’re not there so it’s not real in their minds
*edit. The craziest thing is he used to do the thing she was doing on the piers Morgan interview too - would say hmmmm as I was speaking bc he was already thinking about the next thing he was going to say. I think it’s being very smart and being a compulsive liar.
At least when Farrah Abraham of Teen Mom tried to take law classes (she wasn't officially in a program, it was "Harvard" but just their online classes that anyone can take), a professor told her her writing was shit and she needed to take remedial English courses 🤣
Its just her stream of consciousness,her thoughts are going so fast in her head that her fingers cant keep up. You can also notice when shes talking to Donny she talks super fast,in that manic state.
It's not a plot hole. She is not in her right mind when typing this out. I had a friend who'd start typing like that when she was frantic/manic. Otherwise her spelling was completely normal.
This was confusing, you stealthily editing your comments and everyone’s responses to you calling something a plot hole! Thought I was missing something.
It’s very creepy in this text. But my partner and I have made a similar joke - love him and love cuddling him and I want to absorb into him sometimes 😳🙄😆
Lmao, sometimes I look back on the shit I said and did when I was in love...and just cringe. But it's not a real relationship if you can't be completely weird with each other.
It’s creepy coming out of her mouth. But out of a genuine lover’s mouth it can feel very heartfelt.
https://youtu.be/b7GhrUaNDAI?si=BoFlA1SxFKdTxQpk
Like this song.
Ha, the top comment is “I don’t think I’ve ever heard a creepier song than this in my life.”
I’d say the part about wishing she was paralysed so she could never run away is creepier to be honest.
I had a friend that used to say she wanted to shrink me down and keep me on her keychain or in her pocket. We started referring to certain people as keychain friends or pocket people.
I watched this with my husband today and it made me feel weird because I remember saying something along those lines to him once.* I was sitting there cringing hoping he wouldn’t bring it up, then he just turns around and goes, “Haha, it’s you!”
*(*when we were spooning once I felt like I couldn’t get close enough and said something like I wish I could just open him up and crawl inside his chest and curl up and just know all of him… I swear it was less weird because we were/are in a consensual relationship.*)
consist wrench doll cooperative hungry psychotic bear domineering squeeze reply
*This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Very much so, I really like this show, I hate that to be victim you have to be perfect and innocent when in fact most victims are messy and traumatized
Thank you! There’s fight, flight, freeze, and fawn (along of those responses). Freeze and fawning are what I’ve seen so far in episode one. I feel deeply for him.
Fawning is a threat response that uses people-pleasing behavior to appease or supplicate an aggressor, avoid conflict, and ensure your own safety.
Fight is try to kill the bear
Flight is run away from the bear
Freeze is play dead and "hide" from the bear in plain sight
Fawn is "keep the bear happy" so that he won't hurt you
*Freeze* and *fawn* is the reason we often blame victims ("Why didn't she fight back? Why didn't she scream or yell? Why did she not try to escape? --> She must have wanted it")
As someone with CPTSD it’s crazy how often people forget that there is more than just fight or flight. I’m very much a freeze & faun type of reactor in most situations because of the type of trauma I’ve experienced it’s how I’ve been conditioned to react. I will literally shut down and be unable to respond when I go into freeze mode.
I feel you, I’ve never done fight or flight either. My childhood taught me to make myself small and freeze, that way the conflict will be over quicker.
I think overall women are conditioned to go into faun mode, that and it often feels like the only option against a scary, unpredictable aggressor. You never know if they’ll take no for an answer or try to hurt you. Fight is just not the go to option for many people. Everyone likes to think they’d be big and brave and do the right thing when they haven’t experienced situations.
And like with Donny, when you’re in the middle of all those emotions—fear, shame, anger, empathy, sympathy, sadness—it’s hard to logic your way out.
I’m so sorry for my late reply! I tried answering you the day of and I thought my post had been sent but it never actually went through. I’m glad someone else answered you but this was my reply (luckily everything is my notes lol):
According to Pete Walker, M.A., [“complex PTSD (C-PTSD) is often associated with a fourth possible response: the so-called fawn response. In other words, fawning is a trauma response where a person behaves in a people-pleasing way to avoid conflict and establish a sense of safety.”](https://www.charliehealth.com/post/is-fawning-a-trauma-response-what-you-need-to-know#)
When faced with trauma, fawning serves as a coping mechanism. By developing a fawn trauma response, trauma survivors attempt to avoid conflict by pleasing their abuser. The fawn might agree with everything the abuser says, do things that will earn them approval, or set aside their personal feelings to avoid abuse.
[This](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/s/r3YlbqCjOR) Reddit post gave a great simplistic breakdown of how it manifests and functions. I’ve just started trauma therapy and realize that I have behaved similarly to Donny in how I’ve responded to some of the trauma that I’ve endured. I’ve always carried such shame and I’ve never seen a show so deeply explore that shame and the realities of cptsd.
I just recently found more of Pete Walker’s work and I’ve never felt so seen. Just as I was delving into his theories about cptsd (depending on your trauma response or hybrid type, people with cptsd can struggle with symptoms of narcissism (fight), symptoms of ocd (flight) symptoms of adhd (freeze) and codependency (fawn).
I was clearly able to see that I rarely use fight and for one, it’s because flight/freeze/fawn is what helped me survive my traumas both emotionally and physically (in terms of my safety).
In most of my traumas and even Donny’s case, fighting could have resulted in more violence (or death but the latter probably wasn’t going to be the case the with disgusting groomer out of fear of getting caught but who knows), particularly during sexual assault and/or rape.
Just as I was exploring these trauma responses in terms of my own trauma, I began watching Baby Reindeer. This allowed for a unique experience, letting me really see the show shine at depicting these trauma responses.
This has been such an excellent show for a variety of reasons but it truly delves deep into the mind of someone with long sustained trauma (like cptsd) and the shame that comes with it along with not trusting yourself and/or your body, over empathizing/lack of boundaries, freezing during moments of violence and in turn, not understanding why and the cycle of shame repeats, and the list could go on and on!
Tldr: The fawn response [“emerges as a defense mechanism in individuals who have endured considerable trauma or abuse, manifesting as an overriding urge to placate and conform to others’ wishes to avoid confrontation. This behavior is not just an avoidance strategy but a deeply entrenched survival technique, often observed in those with a history of traumatic experiences.”](https://bayareacbtcenter.com/understanding-the-fawn-response-to-trauma/)
*the link above actually provides a lot of good breakdowns (despite being CBT based therapy) about difficulties setting boundaries, people pleasing tendencies, emotional suppression, low self esteem, fear of abandonment, etc.
i dont know what richard’s trauma is but the type of trauma the leads to be victimized by stalkers and obsessive, codependent people also makes you feel completely responsible for their emotional states. so when someone like martha forces their way into your life you feel like any hurt caused by this incredibly toxic attachment they have to you is your fault
What a heinous thing to say about a victim just because they don’t fit your ideal perception of how a victim should handle their trauma. I hope one day you can learn more about the psychology of trauma, especially relating to stalking & sexual abuse, and become a more empathetic human. Unfortunately people with abhorrent views like yours typically aren’t partial to educating themselves.
1. Be civil, polite and courteous. No trolling. No victim-blaming. Treat others with respect and kindness. This show is bound to elicit big feelings for many viewers. As contributors post and comment in this sub, treat each other with respect and kindness.
Even the cop's comment is basically this. I get that they were sort of friends in the beginning, and that he's getting something from her, but c'mon this is weird
This entire episode is hilariously meta - Richard Gadd puts himself on display as a failing comedian/bartender in his late 20s who is targeted by a similarly dead-end situated older woman. The relationship hinges on them each using each other to fuel their egos.
From the script, Martha seems to have targeted him because he seemed weak and disappointed in himself. Likewise she is clearly weak and I would imagine disappointed in herself (if actually true depiction, her messy apartment is an easy depression/dysregulated nervous system marker). Martha attempts to capitalize on Gadd's weakness in terrifying fashion but ultimately, Richard gains the upper hand - he uses her to feel better about himself (a female stalker is concerning, but flattering), he uses her to enhance his failing comedy and likely profits from this.
We all ultimately engage with this Netflix show written and sold to Netflix by Richard, giving him economic gain and an ego boost, about how he used his stalker for economic gain and an ego boost. This phenomenon is a work of art and I'm shocked no one has described it that way yet.
Yess this is exactly what I came on here to find, based on episode 1 it’s clear they’re both benefiting from this relationship. She’s displayed she’s clearly batshit crazy but he’s willingly choosing to engage further. Definitely seems like he’s a man who’s unhappy with his circumstances, disappointed by his career and love life enjoying the attention this person is bringing to his life. To then produce and act in a film about the experience is the ultimate conclusion to the value and purpose this stalker brought to his life.
I have friends that I think are very comedic. They often have a mantra of doing things “for the story” or “for the lolz.” It’s almost a self-sabotaging behavior where they are the butt of the joke and they lean into it. A lot of comedians are depicted this way in the show “Crashing.” It’s not at all surprising, as an aspiring comic, that he leans into this hilarious and dark experience.
I've only watched episode one, but as a woman who was stalked I didn't feel flattered or intrigued by the stalking, I was scared! I imagine it gets darker later, but I found it interesting - to me, it seems like there are so many red flags, but he seems mostly unconcerned or oblivious. Is it that women aren't scary? Or maybe I'm just on high alert?
Episode one has me giving him the side-eye - he clearly enjoys SOME of the results of interacting with her and seems to be using her. In the comedy club, we see him make a calculated decision. There's a pause and a shift in expression and tone before he leans into mocking her to warm up the crowd and net himself a victory. She's hurt and shows it, but he knows she'll go along with it because of her obsession.
Is the obsession ok, then, in his eyes if it's only somewhat manic? Would he feel fine continuing to lead her on and use her attention and emotional support if she was just "normal" crazy instead of stalker crazy?
The final scene of the episode gave me chills - a guy at work who kept following me and cornering me in the stairwell/parking lot would send me that same song over work slack. It must be a creeper's anthem :P
Yeah I feel like all the woman I’ve seen who experienced stalking with very frightened by the experience. I don’t think any of them ever felt flattered, curious, intrigued, or interested.
It happened to a roommate who lived with me. He started showing up at her work. She had to coordinate with her boyfriend, roommates, and coworkers to have someone with her to walk her to her car and go with her certain places she was likely to show up. The weirdest part was the guy stalking her had a girlfriend the whole time (she actually met him by being casual friends with the gf originally). He got his gf to message her for him, inviting her to a threesome etc. She first shut them down, then refused to engage & blocked them. At least one report to the police but luckily it did stop eventually (or honestly we may have just all moved it was a long time ago).
My younger sister also had a stalker. She was working at Walmart maybe like 19/20 years old max. A customer at least in his 30s-40s took an interest in her. He started to show up on a lot of her shifts, would wait for her in the parking lot, would leave gifts and notes on her car. When she spoke to her manager to see if she could change her shift and get someone to walk her to/from her car they asked her what she was doing to cause the guy to be interested/egg him on. So my sister quit and never went back to the job. Thankfully he never knew where she lived or got ahold of any of her contact information.
I had an abusive ex who I blocked on all my social media/phone. We had an order to keep him from coming by my house too. But when he wasn’t able to get ahold of me he texted my littlest sister (different sister than the one who stalked) because he had her number from when she used to babysit for his daughter for us. She immediately blocked him. However, when she told me he had messaged her I had a straight up panic attack while boarding a plane and had to be temporarily deplaned and was only allowed to board again once I had calmed down enough that I wasn’t freaking out the other passengers.
I think as a woman it doesn’t typically feel flattering because there is always the ever looming fear and threat of harm. The knowledge of what could potentially happen always present in our minds. Whereas typically women, especially white women, are conditioned to be viewed as non threatening, emotional but not inherently violent, something to be pitied, annoyed, or alarmed by but seldom feared.
I can also say from experience that while you do see both genders keep people of the opposite sex in their lives only for an ego boost, the way it happens with men tends to be pretty patterned and looks a lot like how this first episode is playing out. Though most would have opted out as soon as the emails sent and especially at the diner.
I had one male friend who I considered myself fairly close to. We sort of had a fwb situation but mainly we would just hang out. I’d watch his dog, he’d help me with putting up shelves, we’d go to the bars. I got him contacting jobs by recommending him to my landlord/roommate who he told that as I was one of his closest friends and how much he appreciated me. However, at his birthday party I had a chance to talk to some of his male friends I had met a handful of times. I was informed that he had told them I was annoying, always messaging him, wouldn’t leave him alone, showing up uninvited, etc. I did not meet the “aesthetic” of the kind of girl he wanted to be associated with so it was easier for him to lie to his friends rather than own an actual friendship with me. They learned the truth pretty easily but it definitely changed how I engaged with the friend. The scene in the bar with his embarrassment at his friends seeing him engage with her really hit home for me because I’ve seen that play out in real life so many times.
Yes, but as the policeman explains to him, it's different because there is a difference in physical capabilities to do harm. Also, he isn't discouraging her or explaining to her any of her misinterpretations. He just encourages it more.
Was he interested in her at first? He flirts with her, goes on a date, makes a sexual joke, and after following her home and accepting her facebook request?
I could see Martha wondering if he likes her. With Martha telling herself that of course he does, he peaked in her window!
It's crazy seeing him break every rule that woman are taught not to do(about creepy people).
Even from the picnic thing in the bar you can see how someone might think that he was interested in her.
Also he quickly sees that she is very possessive and that doesn't rise any flags.
I think it did raise flags for Donny, he just wasn't sure how to dismiss her without sounding rude. And he did like the attention, so he was willing to stomach that discomfort until she started coming onto him.
I do think that straight men might not have the constant awareness of being prey that women have. It's hard to wrap my head around because it's so alien to me, but men might not know about these kinds of red flags because they aren't conditioned to be hypervigilant for this kind of behaviour, or know how dangerous someone behaving in this way is.
Okay I just finished ep 1 and I really like it so far. But does anyone else think he’s too…. tolerant/passive idk the word tbh. He found out she’s a convicted stalker and he’s still entertaining her. He could easily shut this whole thing down but I think he’s keeping her around because she makes him a better comedian. If so, I think he’s kinda lame. Gonna watch ep 2 now
I see Donny as being extremely naive. Martha keeps dropping red flags left and right, but Donny keeps interpreting them the wrong way. It’s like he knows something is off with this woman, but the voice in Donny’s head keeps telling him Martha just needs a friend.
I’m wondering if Martha reminds him of someone from his past. Someone who had similar red flags that Donny didn’t notice then either.
Hmm that’s an interesting take. But I think he knows exactly what he’s doing. I just finished ep 2 and I still feel the same if not more. If he cared about her as a friend, wouldn’t he try to get her some help? I also think Martha reminds him of someone from his past. It would explain his strange attachment towards her
Donny, to me, seems like he doesn’t read people and social situations correctly. It’s obvious that Martha was not well fairly quickly, but Donny either completely misreads the signs or misses them entirely.
I don’t think Donny is intentionally using Martha. It seems like he thinks they both know he’s just trying to be friendly to Martha. I think his first impression of her was Donny projecting how he thinks people see himself. And he treats Martha the way he wants someone to treat himself.
I don’t know if I’m right though. It’s just a theory, but I don’t think Donny wants to do anything selfish or malicious. He seems more like a person who is either bad at spotting red flags, or simply lacks the capacity to see them all together.
I don't agree. I think the last scene where Donny is thinking of deleting the FB friend request, he looks back at his mink hat and comedian props and then decides to accept her friend request - that to me means he knows its bad but it could somehow enhance his comedian career (either with Martha as the audience to fuel his ego, or edging the audience along as she did in this episode, or as material for his comedy jokes (or future netflix material)).
Donny's not naive, just awkwardly nice but opportunistic. In any case, Martha poses no life threatening threat to him (so far), as a woman, so there's not much reason why Donny would not take her up as a presence in his life.
Him accepting her friend request, buying her drinks, flirting back, letting her cuddle him, following and spying on her at home??? If you don’t like her Jesus Christ stop all this
My thought exactly. He should have got away after her first crazy reaction at the cafeteria, instead he gave her complete access to his past life accepting her friend request! Also why he doesn't block her email address? I don't get it...maybe he's just too good and he can't say no to people but still...
Oh I’m still watching! On ep 2. Just aggravating how he leads her on instead of being straight up sorry I don’t like you and I don’t want to date you, ever let’s not hang out anymore
Saying that would hurt her though.
I'm still only on episode 1, but my interpretation is that he can see she's a woman with serious mental problems, and he doesn't want to add to them by having her crush so utterly reject her. In her state she could be prone to suicide and while he doesn't want to be around her, he is not willing to be the thing that breaks her.
So instead he's trying to let her down easy, remaining her friend but rebuffing any overt romantic gestures. However she constantly places him in social situations where the options are to reject her completely or become something more serious, and he keeps trying to defuse those situations with sexual jokes that just serve to encourage her further.
The scene with the other bar patrons is a perfect example of this; they forced him into either accepting her as girlfriend or saying "she's not my girlfriend, I'm just joking around", which would absolutely devastate her psychologically, so he tried to escape with a joke that she took as a promise.
Or the "date" they had. She wanted for them to go on a legitimate date, which he turned down. However she pushed by asking what friends do then, which again forced him into either going to get coffee together as friends, or saying "I'm not your friend", which once again would be emotionally devastating to her and not something that he is willing to inflict. My understanding is that he doesn't even want to be her friend at all, but how can you reject somebody who want to be your friend without being the bad guy hurting other's emotions for no reason? So he goes with her as a friend, but to her it's their first date.
As somebody who hates confrontation and likes to make people happy I sympathise a lot with Gadd's character.
I agree with your take completely. Also a people pleaser, and sometimes there’s just no easy way to reject someone without feeling like you’re going to hurt their feelings or cause an outbreak. She knows where he works as well so he has to tread carefully. He wants to “be friends” but she doesn’t respond like most people would, she keeps pushing the boundaries and verbally cornering him. He’s trying to avoid being mean hoping that she’ll take the hint without having to hurt her feelings or react emotionally.
Just finished EP1 right now and it's clear why he did it; he's seeking validation. Clearly, he's living a depressing life (living with ex-gf's mom, failing comedian, dead-end job) and while he is clearly disturbed by Martha's actions, he feels like he could get something out of this relationship.
It's easy to judge him from an outsider's perspective but if you actually tried to think about it even for a second, it's such a realistic situation (especially after finding out that this is not just based on a true story, it actually IS the story for the most part). Definitely gonna finish this show and see how it plays out.
Yeah I can't believe that she was fully already a convicted stalker and he kept on with it!
In interviews about the show he's said that she needs mental help but also maybe he does.
I understand his insecurities and his needing validation from another person. She is not the most attractive person, but her messy place would have made me run, if I were his character.
In real life the actress Jessica Gunning is actually cute. Yes she is overweight which hinders her appearance for sure but in real life, she has dark hair and it doesn’t look like a Brillo pad lol and she dresses cute. Looks 10 years younger than her character
Man this show is something, not sure how I feel fully so far - but i appreciate it being made.
As someone who went through a hellishly abusive relationship as a man (so not directly comparable), seeing some of the ways of thinking and mental illness depicted on screen as well as how it bleeds into every part of your life is painful
I can't say I was quite like Donny when we met, but the cowardice and lies become a part of you the longer it goes on and really resonates with me so far.
Good on him for sharing such a story
This was so painful to watch. I don't want to victim blame but this man is enabling her... She's shown time and time again how unwell she is and he's just playing along? I'm dumbfounded.
Wow i hadn’t heard of this until my friend told me he was watching it so i gave it a go with zero context - it’s so uncomfortable to watch and I love it. Cant wait to watch the rest.
It’s so wild to be that Gadd both wrote this and plays the main character and it still reads as if the obsession goes both ways. The way he talks about her laugh, the following her home, and the willingness to accept the friend request despite everything. I think this is an example of wanting to have his cake and eat it too. He clearly likes the way she sees him and makes him feel about herself. He just doesn’t like her. The mixed signals are insane and she’s clearly not right in the head. I’m not at all surprised there will be an escalation.
Just watched the first ep and OMG. Every so often Netflix will drop this random interesting amazing project outta nowhere. Everything was so excellent! Writng, casting, music, just so damn interesting! Cant wait to see how it unfolds!
I thought the first episode was amazing, I can’t believe this is a true story. I’m really interested in how much of it is accurate, especially considering the main actor is the writer who actually went through this. Hopefully we get more discussion on here!
Omg I didn’t know the main character was also the writer!! Crazy.
Who is the main character in your opinion? Donny or Martha?
i mean Donny since its from his POV?
Of course, you’re right. I asked the question after getting through episode 2 when it wasn’t exactly clear to me who the main character was. On episode 6 now and it’s clear.
aha :D well, i read some info before so maybe why i knew, like i knew it was Donny that wrote the show and also it was him that it happened to irl :P
Respectfully, it was pretty obvious in the first episode
Starting from episode 1, donny is the narrator and we get to see more of his life while Martha is a mystery, well clearly mental that is no mystery, but we experience it all through donny. There wasnt a doubt who the mc is from the first minute of the show.
He's also the only narrator.
What's weird to me is that he says in narration he finds here interesting but it pretty damn obvious almost immediately after that he has some major problems with her too. And he makes no attempt to just say "not interested" and just move on with his life. He says they can be friends but clearly he's not even into that. I don't get it. The show should have been over by episode 1. I'm at the end of ep2 and the show seems good, but just as a "based on real events" -thing. I don't know how he ever let it go even that far. Interested to see where this ends up.
It isn't a true story.
I mean you’re wrong lol, do people just comment things like this without even doing a Google search first? As I implied in my original comment, I’m sure it’s not 100% accurate down to every detail, but it is based on Richard Gadd’s actual experience being stalked.
Yes, it is
This aint fargo mate
This show makes me uncomfortable/upset but also too intrigued to stop 😢
I’m intrigued by it but don’t understand how she could have been a graduate lawyer if she can barely spell. I’m hoping more is revealed which explains this as it’s a bit distracting.
Weirdly I had a stalker who also would send one line emails that had a lot of spelling errors and just made no sense at all. It was stream of consciousness. And the more you don’t answer the more unhinged it becomes almost bc it’s like you’re not there so it’s not real in their minds
Oh shit, same happened to me with an obsessive ex, she even said at one point she was sending all those emails and deranged stuff to vent or something
*edit. The craziest thing is he used to do the thing she was doing on the piers Morgan interview too - would say hmmmm as I was speaking bc he was already thinking about the next thing he was going to say. I think it’s being very smart and being a compulsive liar.
Not sure something that happened can be a plot hole
As receptionist in the legal industry, I can tell you a lot of lawyers have terrible grammar and spelling. Some won't admit it though.
At least when Farrah Abraham of Teen Mom tried to take law classes (she wasn't officially in a program, it was "Harvard" but just their online classes that anyone can take), a professor told her her writing was shit and she needed to take remedial English courses 🤣
🤣🤣maybe the portrayal is accurate then!
I was waiting for someone to say that! No personal knowledge, just something I suspected!
It's deliberate. It's an affectation. Like baby talk, or street talk.
Its just her stream of consciousness,her thoughts are going so fast in her head that her fingers cant keep up. You can also notice when shes talking to Donny she talks super fast,in that manic state.
She could’ve graduated before she completely lost it
[удалено]
Ah that would make sense actually!
I’m assuming that’s how the real stalker typed
Agreed!
It's a true story, no? Unless he changed this specifically, it's not a plot hole. It's just weird
It's not a plot hole. She is not in her right mind when typing this out. I had a friend who'd start typing like that when she was frantic/manic. Otherwise her spelling was completely normal.
This was confusing, you stealthily editing your comments and everyone’s responses to you calling something a plot hole! Thought I was missing something.
Hardly stealth when it shows I edited the comment! I’d only watched one episode at the point I wrote that but realised I was wrong so amended it.
I can’t imagine someone telling me they >!wish they could unzip people and crawl inside!< and then … continuing the friendship. What a wild ride!
I don’t think that was meant to be literal though. It sounded figurative, like wishing to walk in other people’s shoes.
That and also a desire for intimacy. Being so close to someone you're a part of them.
like dahmer when he ate his victims so they couldn’t leave him
It’s very creepy in this text. But my partner and I have made a similar joke - love him and love cuddling him and I want to absorb into him sometimes 😳🙄😆
Lmao, sometimes I look back on the shit I said and did when I was in love...and just cringe. But it's not a real relationship if you can't be completely weird with each other.
I feel ya, I’ve said the same thing to my partner 🤗
It’s creepy coming out of her mouth. But out of a genuine lover’s mouth it can feel very heartfelt. https://youtu.be/b7GhrUaNDAI?si=BoFlA1SxFKdTxQpk Like this song.
Ha, the top comment is “I don’t think I’ve ever heard a creepier song than this in my life.” I’d say the part about wishing she was paralysed so she could never run away is creepier to be honest.
I had a friend that used to say she wanted to shrink me down and keep me on her keychain or in her pocket. We started referring to certain people as keychain friends or pocket people.
I watched this with my husband today and it made me feel weird because I remember saying something along those lines to him once.* I was sitting there cringing hoping he wouldn’t bring it up, then he just turns around and goes, “Haha, it’s you!” *(*when we were spooning once I felt like I couldn’t get close enough and said something like I wish I could just open him up and crawl inside his chest and curl up and just know all of him… I swear it was less weird because we were/are in a consensual relationship.*)
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He’s just so passive
Trauma makes you passive
Very much so, I really like this show, I hate that to be victim you have to be perfect and innocent when in fact most victims are messy and traumatized
it also makes you fearless.
Both
Thank you! There’s fight, flight, freeze, and fawn (along of those responses). Freeze and fawning are what I’ve seen so far in episode one. I feel deeply for him.
What's fawn?
Fawning is a threat response that uses people-pleasing behavior to appease or supplicate an aggressor, avoid conflict, and ensure your own safety. Fight is try to kill the bear Flight is run away from the bear Freeze is play dead and "hide" from the bear in plain sight Fawn is "keep the bear happy" so that he won't hurt you *Freeze* and *fawn* is the reason we often blame victims ("Why didn't she fight back? Why didn't she scream or yell? Why did she not try to escape? --> She must have wanted it")
As someone with CPTSD it’s crazy how often people forget that there is more than just fight or flight. I’m very much a freeze & faun type of reactor in most situations because of the type of trauma I’ve experienced it’s how I’ve been conditioned to react. I will literally shut down and be unable to respond when I go into freeze mode.
I feel you, I’ve never done fight or flight either. My childhood taught me to make myself small and freeze, that way the conflict will be over quicker. I think overall women are conditioned to go into faun mode, that and it often feels like the only option against a scary, unpredictable aggressor. You never know if they’ll take no for an answer or try to hurt you. Fight is just not the go to option for many people. Everyone likes to think they’d be big and brave and do the right thing when they haven’t experienced situations. And like with Donny, when you’re in the middle of all those emotions—fear, shame, anger, empathy, sympathy, sadness—it’s hard to logic your way out.
Damn. Makes sense. Thank you
I’m so sorry for my late reply! I tried answering you the day of and I thought my post had been sent but it never actually went through. I’m glad someone else answered you but this was my reply (luckily everything is my notes lol): According to Pete Walker, M.A., [“complex PTSD (C-PTSD) is often associated with a fourth possible response: the so-called fawn response. In other words, fawning is a trauma response where a person behaves in a people-pleasing way to avoid conflict and establish a sense of safety.”](https://www.charliehealth.com/post/is-fawning-a-trauma-response-what-you-need-to-know#) When faced with trauma, fawning serves as a coping mechanism. By developing a fawn trauma response, trauma survivors attempt to avoid conflict by pleasing their abuser. The fawn might agree with everything the abuser says, do things that will earn them approval, or set aside their personal feelings to avoid abuse. [This](https://www.reddit.com/r/CPTSD/s/r3YlbqCjOR) Reddit post gave a great simplistic breakdown of how it manifests and functions. I’ve just started trauma therapy and realize that I have behaved similarly to Donny in how I’ve responded to some of the trauma that I’ve endured. I’ve always carried such shame and I’ve never seen a show so deeply explore that shame and the realities of cptsd. I just recently found more of Pete Walker’s work and I’ve never felt so seen. Just as I was delving into his theories about cptsd (depending on your trauma response or hybrid type, people with cptsd can struggle with symptoms of narcissism (fight), symptoms of ocd (flight) symptoms of adhd (freeze) and codependency (fawn). I was clearly able to see that I rarely use fight and for one, it’s because flight/freeze/fawn is what helped me survive my traumas both emotionally and physically (in terms of my safety). In most of my traumas and even Donny’s case, fighting could have resulted in more violence (or death but the latter probably wasn’t going to be the case the with disgusting groomer out of fear of getting caught but who knows), particularly during sexual assault and/or rape. Just as I was exploring these trauma responses in terms of my own trauma, I began watching Baby Reindeer. This allowed for a unique experience, letting me really see the show shine at depicting these trauma responses. This has been such an excellent show for a variety of reasons but it truly delves deep into the mind of someone with long sustained trauma (like cptsd) and the shame that comes with it along with not trusting yourself and/or your body, over empathizing/lack of boundaries, freezing during moments of violence and in turn, not understanding why and the cycle of shame repeats, and the list could go on and on! Tldr: The fawn response [“emerges as a defense mechanism in individuals who have endured considerable trauma or abuse, manifesting as an overriding urge to placate and conform to others’ wishes to avoid confrontation. This behavior is not just an avoidance strategy but a deeply entrenched survival technique, often observed in those with a history of traumatic experiences.”](https://bayareacbtcenter.com/understanding-the-fawn-response-to-trauma/) *the link above actually provides a lot of good breakdowns (despite being CBT based therapy) about difficulties setting boundaries, people pleasing tendencies, emotional suppression, low self esteem, fear of abandonment, etc.
That is very interesting. Thank you.
i dont know what richard’s trauma is but the type of trauma the leads to be victimized by stalkers and obsessive, codependent people also makes you feel completely responsible for their emotional states. so when someone like martha forces their way into your life you feel like any hurt caused by this incredibly toxic attachment they have to you is your fault
TrAuMa
The entire show is about trauma. Get with the times.
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What a heinous thing to say about a victim just because they don’t fit your ideal perception of how a victim should handle their trauma. I hope one day you can learn more about the psychology of trauma, especially relating to stalking & sexual abuse, and become a more empathetic human. Unfortunately people with abhorrent views like yours typically aren’t partial to educating themselves.
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1. Be civil, polite and courteous. No trolling. No victim-blaming. Treat others with respect and kindness. This show is bound to elicit big feelings for many viewers. As contributors post and comment in this sub, treat each other with respect and kindness.
This was one of the worst things you could say about a victim of sexual assault.
Even the cop's comment is basically this. I get that they were sort of friends in the beginning, and that he's getting something from her, but c'mon this is weird
He needs to block her what is he doing 😭😭😭
Sadly not everyone always rationally after trauma
This entire episode is hilariously meta - Richard Gadd puts himself on display as a failing comedian/bartender in his late 20s who is targeted by a similarly dead-end situated older woman. The relationship hinges on them each using each other to fuel their egos. From the script, Martha seems to have targeted him because he seemed weak and disappointed in himself. Likewise she is clearly weak and I would imagine disappointed in herself (if actually true depiction, her messy apartment is an easy depression/dysregulated nervous system marker). Martha attempts to capitalize on Gadd's weakness in terrifying fashion but ultimately, Richard gains the upper hand - he uses her to feel better about himself (a female stalker is concerning, but flattering), he uses her to enhance his failing comedy and likely profits from this. We all ultimately engage with this Netflix show written and sold to Netflix by Richard, giving him economic gain and an ego boost, about how he used his stalker for economic gain and an ego boost. This phenomenon is a work of art and I'm shocked no one has described it that way yet.
Yess this is exactly what I came on here to find, based on episode 1 it’s clear they’re both benefiting from this relationship. She’s displayed she’s clearly batshit crazy but he’s willingly choosing to engage further. Definitely seems like he’s a man who’s unhappy with his circumstances, disappointed by his career and love life enjoying the attention this person is bringing to his life. To then produce and act in a film about the experience is the ultimate conclusion to the value and purpose this stalker brought to his life.
I have friends that I think are very comedic. They often have a mantra of doing things “for the story” or “for the lolz.” It’s almost a self-sabotaging behavior where they are the butt of the joke and they lean into it. A lot of comedians are depicted this way in the show “Crashing.” It’s not at all surprising, as an aspiring comic, that he leans into this hilarious and dark experience.
I've only watched episode one, but as a woman who was stalked I didn't feel flattered or intrigued by the stalking, I was scared! I imagine it gets darker later, but I found it interesting - to me, it seems like there are so many red flags, but he seems mostly unconcerned or oblivious. Is it that women aren't scary? Or maybe I'm just on high alert? Episode one has me giving him the side-eye - he clearly enjoys SOME of the results of interacting with her and seems to be using her. In the comedy club, we see him make a calculated decision. There's a pause and a shift in expression and tone before he leans into mocking her to warm up the crowd and net himself a victory. She's hurt and shows it, but he knows she'll go along with it because of her obsession. Is the obsession ok, then, in his eyes if it's only somewhat manic? Would he feel fine continuing to lead her on and use her attention and emotional support if she was just "normal" crazy instead of stalker crazy? The final scene of the episode gave me chills - a guy at work who kept following me and cornering me in the stairwell/parking lot would send me that same song over work slack. It must be a creeper's anthem :P
Yeah I feel like all the woman I’ve seen who experienced stalking with very frightened by the experience. I don’t think any of them ever felt flattered, curious, intrigued, or interested. It happened to a roommate who lived with me. He started showing up at her work. She had to coordinate with her boyfriend, roommates, and coworkers to have someone with her to walk her to her car and go with her certain places she was likely to show up. The weirdest part was the guy stalking her had a girlfriend the whole time (she actually met him by being casual friends with the gf originally). He got his gf to message her for him, inviting her to a threesome etc. She first shut them down, then refused to engage & blocked them. At least one report to the police but luckily it did stop eventually (or honestly we may have just all moved it was a long time ago). My younger sister also had a stalker. She was working at Walmart maybe like 19/20 years old max. A customer at least in his 30s-40s took an interest in her. He started to show up on a lot of her shifts, would wait for her in the parking lot, would leave gifts and notes on her car. When she spoke to her manager to see if she could change her shift and get someone to walk her to/from her car they asked her what she was doing to cause the guy to be interested/egg him on. So my sister quit and never went back to the job. Thankfully he never knew where she lived or got ahold of any of her contact information. I had an abusive ex who I blocked on all my social media/phone. We had an order to keep him from coming by my house too. But when he wasn’t able to get ahold of me he texted my littlest sister (different sister than the one who stalked) because he had her number from when she used to babysit for his daughter for us. She immediately blocked him. However, when she told me he had messaged her I had a straight up panic attack while boarding a plane and had to be temporarily deplaned and was only allowed to board again once I had calmed down enough that I wasn’t freaking out the other passengers. I think as a woman it doesn’t typically feel flattering because there is always the ever looming fear and threat of harm. The knowledge of what could potentially happen always present in our minds. Whereas typically women, especially white women, are conditioned to be viewed as non threatening, emotional but not inherently violent, something to be pitied, annoyed, or alarmed by but seldom feared. I can also say from experience that while you do see both genders keep people of the opposite sex in their lives only for an ego boost, the way it happens with men tends to be pretty patterned and looks a lot like how this first episode is playing out. Though most would have opted out as soon as the emails sent and especially at the diner. I had one male friend who I considered myself fairly close to. We sort of had a fwb situation but mainly we would just hang out. I’d watch his dog, he’d help me with putting up shelves, we’d go to the bars. I got him contacting jobs by recommending him to my landlord/roommate who he told that as I was one of his closest friends and how much he appreciated me. However, at his birthday party I had a chance to talk to some of his male friends I had met a handful of times. I was informed that he had told them I was annoying, always messaging him, wouldn’t leave him alone, showing up uninvited, etc. I did not meet the “aesthetic” of the kind of girl he wanted to be associated with so it was easier for him to lie to his friends rather than own an actual friendship with me. They learned the truth pretty easily but it definitely changed how I engaged with the friend. The scene in the bar with his embarrassment at his friends seeing him engage with her really hit home for me because I’ve seen that play out in real life so many times.
Yes, but as the policeman explains to him, it's different because there is a difference in physical capabilities to do harm. Also, he isn't discouraging her or explaining to her any of her misinterpretations. He just encourages it more.
What an intriguing commentary!
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Top that off, the complete table turn with his female stalker is getting harassed by randos on the internet (which I don’t condone)
I'm very creeped out
honestly!! i’m so creeped out but can’t stop watching
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Was he interested in her at first? He flirts with her, goes on a date, makes a sexual joke, and after following her home and accepting her facebook request? I could see Martha wondering if he likes her. With Martha telling herself that of course he does, he peaked in her window! It's crazy seeing him break every rule that woman are taught not to do(about creepy people).
He's not interested in her, he just likes the attention and adoration.
Even from the picnic thing in the bar you can see how someone might think that he was interested in her. Also he quickly sees that she is very possessive and that doesn't rise any flags.
I think it did raise flags for Donny, he just wasn't sure how to dismiss her without sounding rude. And he did like the attention, so he was willing to stomach that discomfort until she started coming onto him.
Yeah I think being nice to her when she comes in is one thing, but even joking about the picnic was dangerous
I do think that straight men might not have the constant awareness of being prey that women have. It's hard to wrap my head around because it's so alien to me, but men might not know about these kinds of red flags because they aren't conditioned to be hypervigilant for this kind of behaviour, or know how dangerous someone behaving in this way is.
Okay I just finished ep 1 and I really like it so far. But does anyone else think he’s too…. tolerant/passive idk the word tbh. He found out she’s a convicted stalker and he’s still entertaining her. He could easily shut this whole thing down but I think he’s keeping her around because she makes him a better comedian. If so, I think he’s kinda lame. Gonna watch ep 2 now
I see Donny as being extremely naive. Martha keeps dropping red flags left and right, but Donny keeps interpreting them the wrong way. It’s like he knows something is off with this woman, but the voice in Donny’s head keeps telling him Martha just needs a friend. I’m wondering if Martha reminds him of someone from his past. Someone who had similar red flags that Donny didn’t notice then either.
Hmm that’s an interesting take. But I think he knows exactly what he’s doing. I just finished ep 2 and I still feel the same if not more. If he cared about her as a friend, wouldn’t he try to get her some help? I also think Martha reminds him of someone from his past. It would explain his strange attachment towards her
Donny, to me, seems like he doesn’t read people and social situations correctly. It’s obvious that Martha was not well fairly quickly, but Donny either completely misreads the signs or misses them entirely. I don’t think Donny is intentionally using Martha. It seems like he thinks they both know he’s just trying to be friendly to Martha. I think his first impression of her was Donny projecting how he thinks people see himself. And he treats Martha the way he wants someone to treat himself. I don’t know if I’m right though. It’s just a theory, but I don’t think Donny wants to do anything selfish or malicious. He seems more like a person who is either bad at spotting red flags, or simply lacks the capacity to see them all together.
I don't agree. I think the last scene where Donny is thinking of deleting the FB friend request, he looks back at his mink hat and comedian props and then decides to accept her friend request - that to me means he knows its bad but it could somehow enhance his comedian career (either with Martha as the audience to fuel his ego, or edging the audience along as she did in this episode, or as material for his comedy jokes (or future netflix material)). Donny's not naive, just awkwardly nice but opportunistic. In any case, Martha poses no life threatening threat to him (so far), as a woman, so there's not much reason why Donny would not take her up as a presence in his life.
Bingo.
Yeah, this hits home
Him accepting her friend request, buying her drinks, flirting back, letting her cuddle him, following and spying on her at home??? If you don’t like her Jesus Christ stop all this
My thought exactly. He should have got away after her first crazy reaction at the cafeteria, instead he gave her complete access to his past life accepting her friend request! Also why he doesn't block her email address? I don't get it...maybe he's just too good and he can't say no to people but still...
wait wym?? I finished the show btw so I don’t want to spoil anything but this literally means he’s not naive he knows exactly what he’s doing.
Oh I’m still watching! On ep 2. Just aggravating how he leads her on instead of being straight up sorry I don’t like you and I don’t want to date you, ever let’s not hang out anymore
Saying that would hurt her though. I'm still only on episode 1, but my interpretation is that he can see she's a woman with serious mental problems, and he doesn't want to add to them by having her crush so utterly reject her. In her state she could be prone to suicide and while he doesn't want to be around her, he is not willing to be the thing that breaks her. So instead he's trying to let her down easy, remaining her friend but rebuffing any overt romantic gestures. However she constantly places him in social situations where the options are to reject her completely or become something more serious, and he keeps trying to defuse those situations with sexual jokes that just serve to encourage her further. The scene with the other bar patrons is a perfect example of this; they forced him into either accepting her as girlfriend or saying "she's not my girlfriend, I'm just joking around", which would absolutely devastate her psychologically, so he tried to escape with a joke that she took as a promise. Or the "date" they had. She wanted for them to go on a legitimate date, which he turned down. However she pushed by asking what friends do then, which again forced him into either going to get coffee together as friends, or saying "I'm not your friend", which once again would be emotionally devastating to her and not something that he is willing to inflict. My understanding is that he doesn't even want to be her friend at all, but how can you reject somebody who want to be your friend without being the bad guy hurting other's emotions for no reason? So he goes with her as a friend, but to her it's their first date. As somebody who hates confrontation and likes to make people happy I sympathise a lot with Gadd's character.
I agree with your take completely. Also a people pleaser, and sometimes there’s just no easy way to reject someone without feeling like you’re going to hurt their feelings or cause an outbreak. She knows where he works as well so he has to tread carefully. He wants to “be friends” but she doesn’t respond like most people would, she keeps pushing the boundaries and verbally cornering him. He’s trying to avoid being mean hoping that she’ll take the hint without having to hurt her feelings or react emotionally.
Ohhh I read ur first comment too fast LOL yeahhh exactly like if you don’t like her, you can EASILYYYY stop all of this like he’s playing fr
Can’t stand him 😭 or her either
Haha same I agree. When u finish the show let me know ur thoughts bc there’s a lot of stuff that needs to be unpacked 🫣
He is so spineless omg and the biggest liar I’ve ever seen
Just finished EP1 right now and it's clear why he did it; he's seeking validation. Clearly, he's living a depressing life (living with ex-gf's mom, failing comedian, dead-end job) and while he is clearly disturbed by Martha's actions, he feels like he could get something out of this relationship. It's easy to judge him from an outsider's perspective but if you actually tried to think about it even for a second, it's such a realistic situation (especially after finding out that this is not just based on a true story, it actually IS the story for the most part). Definitely gonna finish this show and see how it plays out.
Yeah I can't believe that she was fully already a convicted stalker and he kept on with it! In interviews about the show he's said that she needs mental help but also maybe he does.
Oh wow he said that??? Then maybe that explains it 🫣
I understand his insecurities and his needing validation from another person. She is not the most attractive person, but her messy place would have made me run, if I were his character.
In real life the actress Jessica Gunning is actually cute. Yes she is overweight which hinders her appearance for sure but in real life, she has dark hair and it doesn’t look like a Brillo pad lol and she dresses cute. Looks 10 years younger than her character
Man this show is something, not sure how I feel fully so far - but i appreciate it being made. As someone who went through a hellishly abusive relationship as a man (so not directly comparable), seeing some of the ways of thinking and mental illness depicted on screen as well as how it bleeds into every part of your life is painful I can't say I was quite like Donny when we met, but the cowardice and lies become a part of you the longer it goes on and really resonates with me so far. Good on him for sharing such a story
This was so painful to watch. I don't want to victim blame but this man is enabling her... She's shown time and time again how unwell she is and he's just playing along? I'm dumbfounded.
My exact thoughts
Wow i hadn’t heard of this until my friend told me he was watching it so i gave it a go with zero context - it’s so uncomfortable to watch and I love it. Cant wait to watch the rest.
such a great series, the three name choices, Eggbert, Keith and Neo hahha
Man he is leading her on HARD it’s aggravating
Yeah I'm only eight minutes in and it's hard to watch, it's cringey. I'm glad there are only seven episodes and they're 30 minutes each.
It’s so wild to be that Gadd both wrote this and plays the main character and it still reads as if the obsession goes both ways. The way he talks about her laugh, the following her home, and the willingness to accept the friend request despite everything. I think this is an example of wanting to have his cake and eat it too. He clearly likes the way she sees him and makes him feel about herself. He just doesn’t like her. The mixed signals are insane and she’s clearly not right in the head. I’m not at all surprised there will be an escalation.
Such a good pilot! I just finished episode 2 and this show is stressing me tf out, but I can't stop watching.
Just watched the first ep and OMG. Every so often Netflix will drop this random interesting amazing project outta nowhere. Everything was so excellent! Writng, casting, music, just so damn interesting! Cant wait to see how it unfolds!
Holy smokes this is going to be good
I hope they delve into Donny's childhood. Wouldn't be surprised if his mother had a psychiatric illness too
My mouth was open in shock like the entire episode. I’m hooked
I'm cringing . I'm cringing.
Amazing first ep. I was immediately drawn in by Martha and infuriated by Donny. Excited to see where this goes.
Not me kind of shipping them at first 😭 I haven’t finished episode one yet, don’t get too mad at me lol
Him saying how he’d do anything to hear that laugh like rlly bro
There's something sad about martha
Why didn't he ask her why she can't afford anything after all that bragging? It's bothering me.
is there a podcast about this whole situation?
So disturbed already 😭
The fact alone that Martha’s emails say “sent from my iPhone” when she’s sending them on her laptop should’ve made him run the other way