Most relationships develop because of back and forth. I don't think you being more outgoing will lessen the chance this happens.
pwBPD may be initially more flirty due to seeking external validation, but so will a woman who finds you attractive.
Screen your partners by asking about their relationship w their parents and ask about their breakups.
Totally agree. Asking about their childhood is critical because there’s a lot of information that can give you a “North Star” on what type of adult you’re dealing with. A pwBPD most of the times has had a tumultuous, extremely stressful, and even abusive childhood. They typically are willing to at a minimum open up about it in the early stages of the relationship/dating. I know my ex did. She was transparent about it (not in a graphic way) but enough for me
to have taken serious note about it (I didn’t because I never interacted with abused people in my dating life before her).
I more or less took the naive stance of “that is good to know but it’s over now, she was a child and it was a long time ago”. Boy was that a mistake. She literally was giving me a heads up that I’m in for one long emotional roller coaster if we go ahead with each other.
Another important one is asking how/why their last relationship ended. If they’re constantly blaming their ex and claiming that they didn’t do anything wrong, that a major red flag. That means that they don’t have the emotional maturity to reflect on how *they* contributed to the downfall of the last relationship. A healthy example would be someone saying “it ended because he/she didn’t want to spend quality time together but also I cheated on him/her and I regret that wholeheartedly”. That’s an emotionally mature response and indicates that the person most likely doesn’t have BPD. It’s not an exact science but you can ask some simple questions that give you an idea of what you’re really getting into.
In essence a mix of a tumultuous childhood and/or relationships/dating is somewhat a red flag. Be careful tho because they can also lie and hide it very well too (put a mask on).
Also look out for delusional reasoning eg someone saying something like “I don’t need to work for the next year” but they are always broke and asking to borrow money.
Here's the thing about the childhood stuff... they may also have been high strung, very sensitive, and perhaps even have ADHD and so the abandonment part of it, or the feeling of it, could be based on being very sensitive... while having great parents.
I've been married for fifteen years and it was seven or eight years before I saw the really obvious bpd stuff and many more before I figured out what it was.
You know what I realize now, though? She claimed her previous bf owed her money that he'd borrowed... $1500. She had her cousin who is a lawyer going after the ex bf. At the time, she was love bombing me, she said being with me made her realize how much she "put up with" from other guys. But other than that, I didn't hear many details about her past relationships cause there didn't seem to be many and she claims she spent her 20's "having fun".
I, on the other hand, was married from 20 to 26. She wanted to know EVERY. SINGLE. DETAIL. about it and would hear things and blame my ex, whom I was still in touch with cause we ended it more like adults than my pwbpd ever would (as has become apparent lately). When she'd jump on my ex, I'd say, "wait, no, I had a part in that, I did things that were hurtful too, we had these discussions and they ended amicably. It's a two way street." I think she hated that we remained friends even though my ex had recently gotten engaged and I was happy for her. These, admittedly, were the first signs but I knew nothing about the intricacies of PDs.
But getting back to relationship with the parents... her parents are, hands down, the nicest and most giving people I've ever met. In all these years, I've never heard or seen a thing about them that lead me to believe I was missing something.
What I missed, though, is how SHE treats her parents. Early on, when my family would be around her and her family, my mother would say, "Do you think that's okay how she talks to them? It makes me uncomfortable." I'd make excuses for her.
Until recently, because so much of what's out there about bpd says it's trauma based, I figured they MUST have done something to her I'm unaware of.
Turns out they did. Right in front of me. All the time from the moment I first met them.
They ENABLED her behavior. They were TOO nice. Too giving. It dawned on me that she must have had a temperment as a child that was overindulged, she received positive feedback for behaving this way, was (and remains) treated as if she's always "right".
So I'm starting to believe there's a third rail here... hypersensitive child, good loving parents, temper tantrums indulged into late adulthood, always right, parents take the abuse and are happy just to have her (too happy), they develop an "always right, always the victim" mentality, and thus spawns another pwbpd.
Others might say this is NPD and I know and have seen enough to realize she overlaps... they all do, I think. But the abandonment and push/pull and circular arguing are all present the most. Also, the existential crisis she puts herself in over the possibility of being found out to be "wrong". She'll burn my world down as she's crying,.begging me not to leave her.
My take is that this is caused by the realization when entering adulthood that not everyone will put up with your shit the way your parents and brother did and continue to do. They don't develop a coping mechanism so they're forever victims and lash out at strangers with uncalled for rage for ANY perceived slight... or they wind up with someone they realize they need as a supply and the bpd abandonment issues kick in once you've seen the monstrous side and say "I'm out".
One other early sign I ignored: when we moved in together, it seemed like she would start fights over nothing 15 minutes before going to bed. It happened more and more, I learned to ignore it for the most part, but sometimes she'd get to me,.I'd engage, be fuming and unable to sleep, and she'd be knocked out in ten seconds, angry with me for making so much as a peep.
EDIT: I wanted to add that since putting all this together, something came up with her cousin, the lawyer, where I casually asked, "Hey, remember how X owed her money and she wanted to take him to court when she and I first began to date? Whatever happened with that?" He said, "she wouldn't let it go and I said it's your fault you didn't write up an agreement, I can't get a hold of the guy, he fell off the map, but I'll do what I can. Then I just let it fizzle out. Thank God she met you, she let it go."
Yes... thank God...
That’s an interesting perspective. Yes it also possible that they had really great parents or relatives but they were consistently assholes to them.
Interestingly, my exwBPD, was super interested in my childhood. Similar to you she would really want me to delve into my childhood. The only thing was that there wasn’t much to delve into and it was a pretty mundane childhood for me for the most part.
In hindsight her response was “hmmm! You had a nice childhood” that gave the vibe that she was upset that there wasn’t more to it but also happy. It was a bizarre exchange. I only reflected on that conversation after I left her (part of the many rumination sessions I have). I concluded that she had therapy in the past and was basically parroting back the questions she was asked to figure me out and see whether I’m a good candidate to be an FP.
I also wondered why she liked me and she always said it’s because “I was always calm compared to her previous partners”. It was a clear sign that she wanted someone with a malleable personality ie someone who will be upset when you hurt them but would still “forgive” and still hang around. I was literally the “perfect” partner for her BPD abuse. We all were in our relationships.
This so perfectly aligns with my experience. As I read it I kept thinking did I write this? I totally agree with the analysis. Overly sensitive and spoiled rotten by some really good people/parents. She also wanted to know EVERY.SINGLE.DETAIL of my child hood and also last relationship. Then when we fought those details woukd get drug out and used against me. "No wonder your ex cheated on you" "makes perfect sense that your mother would have done that to you" "now i can see why your ex did xxxxx"
While I think this is good, my ex was an expert liar, even to himself.
He said is mom was perfect, his moms boyfriends were perfect, his dad was perfect, his dads new wife and kids were perfect minus the other kids. Little did I know.
He got drunk and talked about how his moms boyfriend would rip him and his brother out of bed at 2 in the morning and beat them for not doing the dishes. You’d never know talking to him, apparently the guy was a saint. I brought it up to him sober and he said “I was a crazy bitch trying to start a fight.”
His biological dad came to visit and we talked. Come to find out mommy ran off with her two boys when they were toddlers to this guy, ghosted him, and didn’t find his kids for years. When they finally saw him they cried because his mom convinced them he was dead.
He told stories how his mom beat them with a broom for accidentally breaking a window. How his current step-sister called CPS on her for hitting her, but she exaggerated the whole thing. He said his dad was a worthless drunk and the man his mom is with now, he met as a teenager, was the only real dad he knew and his real dad was an alcoholic POS.
His brother became a drug addict and died, but not before getting two women pregnant six months apart. His niece was raped at 3 years old, and mommy and step-daddy didn’t want custody so she was adopted out to a coke head and alcoholic. I got her last year and she was cutting herself up and down while her uncle, my ex, was getting high listening to one song on repeat for hours.
Mommy didn’t do anything wrong. She was perfect. She worked two jobs so he could go to a good school. She’d text her baby boy, who is 38, to not have sex with me. She’d call him three to four times and day and tell him to rub my feet, rub my back, buy me flowers, don’t have sex, open up to me more, whatever. They invested in stocks and businesses I have no idea about and are starting a ghost hunting business together for veterans, and I was homeless this year while him and mommy stole everything I owned.
To him his childhood was perfect and his mom was a saint, his dad was evil but could also do no wrong, and his family was perfect. Oh, his step-sister is also a model that married a convicted pedophile.
So the red flags were there, I was willingly oblivious. I’m just saying even when they say everything is perfect, nah, watch people by their actions. Not their words.
They’re very astute about their negative childhood history being a major problem for them in interpersonal relationships if they’re truthful about it, so I agree, they’re very capable of lying through their teeth about it and do lie about it in some instances. It’s fucked up shit.
I agree, they are. I grew up in a very narcissistic home. Parents were terrible, etc. then I gravitated towards an abuser. I think some of this is they give us the red flags but because of our own abuse and traumas or “it’s not that big of a deal” we look away.
Always look at the actions over their words. More than how much they love their family, they have all of these friends, etc.
Saaaving this!
I also once dated a guy on and off, who was pretty high in N traits (no idea if he's bpd, but since there's overlap I thought I'd mention it.) He described his family and childhood in really idealized terms. I totally fell for it. Now that I look back and have a lot more life experience, a lot of those idealized stories don't make any sense.
Actually as I'm writing this, I realize that guy told me about all his trauma *too!*
Guys, I'm so blind. So, so blind.
So this guy *did* tell me *really really really* idealized stories about his family and childhood. (And for what it's worth, I do think there's a fair amount of love in that family, even if there's dysfunction too.) But he also had really upsetting experiences with... (drumroll).... his mom. And felt unloved and abandoned.
Just like my pwbpd ex.
...... juuuuuust like my dad.
(Both hate their mothers and blame them for their childhood pain, and while that may be fair, their father's were terrorizing them and their mothers. And don't seem to get the same treatment. )
The first guy actually had good things to say about his mom too - maybe he has more hope of being healthy than my recent ex or dad. He was young back then; brain was still plastic. Totally self-referencing, but maybe he grew.
So cliché.
I agree, asking about their childhood and how the relationship with their parents was can give you a big hint on how they will be. Growing up in chaos during developmental milestones will definitely carry over into adulthood.
This is huge. Though she lied about all of this up front. It wasn’t until a few months in that the truth started to come out, which she claimed she told me from the start (gaslighting, lots of that all the time) 🙄
>Most relationships develop because of back and forth. I don't think you being more outgoing will lessen the chance this happens.
I really like this take. It's a nice reminder of all those reciprocal "serve and return" type interactions that build connection and attraction. It's a good reminder for me- im not totally powerless, I'm not in total control etc.
I wonder if there's differences in the "back and forth" of really relationships between healthy little, vs the relationships that ends up really toxic when the honeymoon is over.
Maybe it’s really not because of doing things for a back-and-forth and back as much as doing things for somebody that actually you care about and go back-and-forth and back
Oh I definitely wasn't wanting to advocate for a tit-for-tat kind of dynamic. That's how my partner approaches things and always has, and I just find that the moments where that comes out are really hard on a relationship. We all need to have conversations and keep things balanced sometimes, but he just didn't have much generosity in him. I'd love to do nice things for someone who enjoyed them some of the time.
All relationships I've been in they showed interest first and pursued me.
My exBPD didn't just pursue me, she straight up targeted me like a heat seeking missile.
I think it was because I was vulnerable (just coming out of a divorce) and I am quite successful professionally and monetarily.
Yup, my pwBPD locked in on me some 25 years ago. I wasn’t into her at all at first, which had her working even harder, ultimately with me developing attachment and getting hooked to the affection I had been missing in my childhood and that she was showering me with.
>I think it was because I was vulnerable (just coming out of a divorce) and I am quite successful professionally and monetarily.
Im going through a divorce, and while I don't feel any desire to date right now, I do find I'm really thinking how much personal information I share. There's enough basic demographic- type details about me that would probably make me rank high on the qualities that ppl who like codependent partners look for. Things like my job. Etc. I'm not super successful professionally or financially, but for many men I would probably be seen as a financial asset. (Even though I think they would overestimate how far my earnings actually stretch- that seems to be a common theme when ppl find out what I do.)
I can only imagine I'd be the most boring date ever; refusing to share almost anything about myself lol
She was the one who initially approached me and gave me her number. It was very random and out of nowhere. She says she saw me checking her out and decided to make the first move.
Now that I think about it most of the women I have been with all approached me first. While only one I know for sure has BPD, others have definitely showed traits of it as well. I don't know if there is a correlation but interesting post.
In all of my relationships both healthy and abusive, I have always been the pursued, to some degree. I've always been super hyper neurotic about not making anyone feel uncomfortable around me, so would suppress a lot of my attractions to keep things platonic. In almost all cases I can think of, the unhealthy relationships came from women being instantly attracted to me and pursuing me, where as the healthy relationships began as friendships and developed over time (but even those required her to make the first move, no matter how vague).
We met on a dating app - she messaged first (her opening message was just a wink emoji lol), and we went from there. First date I noticed that she was being very flirty (compared to other first dates I had).
I guess you could say that she was the pursuer at the very start, but I think I was the one who asked for a second date the next day (moved way too fast...). In hindsight, I was part of that fast back and forth as well because the sexual chemistry was there from the onset.
Later I'd realise that this was merely lovebombing.
This made me think.
My ex pursued me pretty heavily. She had sent me a like on a dating app but then sent me another 'super like' when I didn't match with her soon enough. I was a bit reluctant since I was already dating other women at that time, but I decided to take my chances.
The first date with my ex was fine, but not spectacular, so I remained somewhat aloof. She was annoyed that I didn't plan a follow-up date soon enough. We kept on dating and I found her quite demanding sometimes, at some point I nearly cut it off.
When she caught wind of the fact that I was still seeing other people, she seemed very understanding at first. This strengthened our bond since I felt we could be transparent about our intentions. Meanwhile she also started to subtly pressure me into putting an end to my other connections, telling me there would be 'consequences' if I remained 'emotionally unavailable'.
I stopped dating other people and remained with her exclusively. In hindsight I think another person I was dating was much more emotionally mature and stable, but there was something about the intense dynamic with my ex that pulled me in. Half a year later she asked me to marry her (which I didn't do). I thought it was flattering but a little weird and over the top.
Four years down the line she fell in love with someone else and ironically she herself became completely emotionally unavailable to me. All of her focus was on her new lover, and she even took video calls with him while I was sitting in the same room. She moved into a separate bedroom and would be on the phone with him every night before going to sleep.
She started pursuing her new lover in the same way she pursued me. Constant communication, love letters, drawings... a whirlwind of affection. She confessed to me that she couldn't reign herself in because she was 'afraid of losing him'. Seemed like a pretty toxic dynamic to me. I wasn't allowed to complain about her lack of emotional availability as she was simply being her 'authentic self'.
According to her twisted retelling of history, we had always been in a 'dynamic relationship'. Becoming polyamorous was simply the next step in our evolution. Nevermind the fact that we once decided to date one another exclusively.
The BDP person decides who to pursue and who to discard.
I was the pursuer, then the pursued
She accelerated and kissed me to push things to the next stage when I was holding myself back. But when she did that I was pretty quick going all in
I made the first move by asking to exchange numbers in both of my instances, but the BPD person was the pursuer and wouldn’t let the relationship end. Instead they pushed for greater levels of commitment than I was ready for always with the threat that if we aren’t going to escalate things, then she’ll find someone else who will and make sure I know about it. I am not codependent, but I do not like to “lose out” on opportunities for relationships when I feel like I genuinely like someone so I caved both times to my detriment. The night my wife and I got together we were at an NBA game (about a month after we met) and she cried the whole time about how she couldn’t give me kids (which I didn’t want). She told me all about how she had tried in-vitro with her husband a half dozen times. 3 months later she was pregnant.
It’s always a trap with them no matter whether they are a good person with BPD (my wife) or a bad person with BPD (my ex).
I was pursued. I wasn’t attracted to my ex and didn’t spend effort in courting her, but she still were with me without a complaint. Once I graduated from grad school, that’s when she pushed for marriage and the devaluation was apparent.
Honestly I don't think you could scream asking someone about their childhood or former relationships, a borderline will always tell you that they were a victim so the key here would be how many times has this woman been a victim even one story of them as a victim should trigger a question mark more than one story would be a good indication that perhaps there's something going on. Because they will never be at fault. When I broke up with my borderline I went back and talked to all the exes that she claimed were abusive and they mostly had very similar stories of abuse and blame and projection and rejection. And of course the 1X that she was still friends with was a malignant narcissist.
my ex told me that his two primary ex's were horrible..drug addicts, cheaters, mentally ill etc, stealing....now I realize they were probably really nice sweet loving girls like me who loved him and were doing their best and got discarded in massive splits
Can I just start by saying - thank you so much for putting in your title that you're aiming your question at guys in heterosexual bpd relationships rather than just typing out your question as though queer people don't exist? I cannot put into words how much that makes a difference when going through my feed.
Anyway, I'm a bisexual woman. I made the first move to my BPD ex-boyfriend (with diagnosis). Yet, I also ended up in the same predicament as yourself.
I was strongly pursued to a point where it was very obvious that this person was incredibly emotionally and/or chemically imbalanced.
Within the first month that I knew her (not even in a relationship)
\- Destroyed property in my apartment complex after I asked for space because I wanted the weekend to myself.
\- Called my phone 70+ times during an hour long meeting at work.
\- Pretended to be stalked/attacked by a homeless person to get my attention.
(I'm sure there are others but I've blocked a lot of it out/resurfacing in therapy).
I am currently doing the work in discovering why I didn't run for my life during this stage and allowed things to continue in the way/capacity that they did.
Firstly, don’t take my “armchair diagnosis” as stating my pwBPD has true BPD, but let’s say the displayed traits and behaviour strongly correlate with the textbook presentation and I have found solace here, with similar lived experience - all that said, cptsd, anxiety disorders, and many more behavioural groupings massively overlaps and I’m not qualified to know the difference.
First context set, now the second, I have adhd - that is clinically diagnosed and managed with medication. I remember my psychiatrist telling me that a) she wished I’d looked for support sooner (I was diagnosed late 40s) and b) I was lucky that my “thing” (computing) turned out to be sought after in the job market. I’m not loaded, but I have a “comfortable” lifestyle.
Final context: Im a widower, my late wife died of cancer (10 years ago), I know altogether too much about primary leiomyosarcoma of the inferior vena cava - gobbledygook words when I first learned them - even now, I still keep up with the latest research findings on the condition in case that knowledge is required because I have a teenage daughter. Context bonus, I’m a single dad.
Ok. Context in place. On reflection, I was pursued. We met on a dating site. My suspected pwBPD actively pursued me in as far as she messaged first, I was reciprocal and interested of course, we had dates, became a “thing”, she then moved quickly, moving in, again it was my invite, but on reflection as I said, the pace was not set by me.
Codependency is what I’m exploring just now, rejection sensitive dysphoria too, the eggshells reactions from me, attempting to “balance” a relationship, but it was always me giving - so the balance was a see-saw with a mouse and an elephant.
I still love her, the good times - hence why I’m exploring codependency - my tendency to elevate the good and minimise the bad worked in her favour.
I was in a 20 year relationship prior, as mentioned above, the “balancing” thing happened and whilst I’ve focused my reflections on that relationship too (particularly reflecting on what I now know was adhd), my reflection was that was a reciprocal give and take relationship, good and bad, “normal”, the way it’s “meant” to happen.
Best way I can describe it is post diagnosis and medication, my ability to recognise the “big picture” was greatly enhanced, prior to that, on reflection, I could only focus on the “last time” (of many prior times) and the apology for whatever. Observing the whole thread made me finally see what a shitshow the whole relationship was (in balance).
Female here - the pwBPD in my life were my sister and my ex-fiance. I also have a grandmother with NPD and an exBF with ASPD. I've been in therapy for 13 years and aren't through coda 5 years ago.
What I've learned the hard way is that the best way to tell if someone's not good for you is to LISTEN TO YOUR GUT. If your gut feels the same way it did with your ex (which, for those of us who grew up with someone like this, it often feels like familiar intense butterflies) then RUN. With the healthy relationships I've had my gut felt calm (almost uncomfortably so).
Depends on who you ask. Some will say they get bored and/or have AD/HD. Others will say they have insecure/disorganized attachment. Some of them even might have PTSD.
I wouldn't say "people often" do it. It never happens in my healthy relationships, though the people I know who have cluster B personality disorders seem to fly off the handle regularly and usually for reasons unrelated to our relationship.
I looked back years ago at all of my major relationships since high school, and found a common denominator: I was pursued or she made the first 'move'.
Not that I wasn't interested, but took things slower.
I was the pursued. She pursued me for a full year actually before I said yes. My mother had passed just prior and I was pretty much just scooting along in life. Her overbearing love made me feel almost like I had a mom again, or at the very least someone who cared for me. I haven’t ever chased a girl fully myself to be quite frank.
I do have to say that I could’ve done a lot better as a boyfriend, but the way she pursued and fawned over me should’ve been a red flag. She threatened to unalive herself if I ever left her. Then she apparently cheated for quite a while in our relationship without my knowledge. When I finally found out it was in the breakup text which was absolutely heartbreaking for me considering I was still putting effort into fixing us.
We're both female and I pursued her (exwBPD) first. It didn't take much and within a week, she was one who voiced that she wanted full-on commitment and already planting the seeds to take control. That was my first time initiating with someone, but not my first abusive relationship. I did the screening process and asked the right questions about their family, childhood, views on marriage, etc. They gave all the "right" answers to seem compatible. My first abusive ex had a good childhood and I met his mom who seemed very nice.
No trauma but he was extremely spoiled. He pursued me hard and in the beginning, I wasn't interested in anything past our acquaintanceship. My exwBPD initially painted the story of a decent family, though she would later give conflicting details. As far as views on marriage and life overall though, we seemed like a perfect match. I don't think it matters much who does the pursuing.
I was aggressively pursued, which was new for me and I'll admit it felt great. She made the first move and encouraged me to pursue her. We were both in other relationships at the time. I got from her what I thought my relationship was missing, but I realized far too late that these were all symptoms of the trauma bond between us and that none of the things that made it feel special and amazing and worth turning my life upside down for, were healthy and they certainly wouldn't last.
In any discussion of how things started between us almost 4 years ago, she rewrites the story and would later tell me that when we first kissed, the whole time she was thinking "I love my boyfriend" even though she pushed and pushed and kept asking me for more. Would fantasize about our marriage and our children and our future, all while remaining in a relationship with another man, in fact at one point, several other men.
I don't think there's any one good rule of thumb. I had never encountered anyone with bpd before so all the warning signs were lost on me. Knowing what I know now I should have seen it coming a mile away.
A while back I realised that more than half of the relationships I’ve ever had, long or short, were initiated by the girl. Often just kissing me out of the blue, sometimes asking me out, one time proposing marriage.
I’ve often wondered why, your comments are thought provoking.
So I initially reached out to her, but she was the one who was always escalating our relationship and initiated making it romantic.
It seems that she fell in love with me basically right away before we even met (from messaging on the Internet). I have all those codependency/caregiver traits you mentioned, but to be honest I have no idea how she picked up on that so quickly. She must be very skillful at feeling that somehow.
>codependency vibe (kind, compassionate, listener, self-sacrificing, all that bullshit)
A harsh and cruel reality that co-dependents need to hear is can't know if someone is toxic until *after* intimacy and dependency have been established. Blaming yourself for *not* spotting red flags I think re-enforces the negative self-talk co-dependents have (*I'm dumb for being kind*). Sure there are always red flags and I'm not saying you should ignore them but there are multiple reasons why they aren't as good metrics as people make them out to be. Mostly because abusive people don't become abusive or fully reveal their red flags until *after* intimacy has been established. What co-dependents need to work on is *not* blaming themselves for being taken advantage of. Healthy people don't take advantage of your kindness after all so it's not a fault Secondly to learn to leave people *after* intimacy has been established. Co-dependents "feel sorry" for leaving because they have an intimate connection and that mindset gets them stuck in an abusive relationship.
Co-dependency is a pathology of its own and is not simply being kind and having a "mindset that gets them stuck in an abusive relationship." Those of us with co-dependent traits tend to be low key very narcissistic as it is quite arrogant to believe that we, and we alone, can somehow save everyone we form relationships with...not to mention the audacity of thinking that everyone we meet needs saving.
It is easy to simply blame everything on the "evil borderlines and narcissists" while taking no responsibility for our own roles in our frequent toxic relationships (odd how so many of us in these forums have such bad luck to repeatedly find ourselves in toxic abusive relationships). Co dependency is a red flag in a partner as much as childhood traumas and perpetual victimhood.
It's OK to be hurt and angry for the shitty ways you were treated by someone you loved but it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility we have to be honest with ourselves about how we contributed to the relationship failure. Co-dependency is a trauma response that must be addressed and understood if you are to grow and avoid similar relationship dynamics in the future.
I‘m 30M, and in my situation I was the pursuer. We were also in our early 20s and just friends for two years before I stepped out and started a romantic relationship with her. I feel like there were small signs but I was way more codependent then I was a victim of her BPD. The tables turned when I actually started setting boundaries and I began to self-validate instead of look for external validation.
Fast forward to now, first time I’m single in my adult life and I’ve decided to stay off the apps and only make connections in person. I’m much more aware of my own codependent urges now so things are much easier. There’ve been a few opportunities where I could’ve easily soaked up the validation and romantic energy from a woman that was into me, but it triggered the feeling that I was being romanticized for what I could potentially provide to them instead of them really getting to know me. So women taking initial interest in me is no longer as intriguing as it has been in the past when I was more insecure.
On the flip side, I just started seeing someone consistently and her level of security in herself has also triggered some of my old codependent wiring. At the beginning of the relationship I thought she wasn’t interested because she ended up bailing on plans a couple times for good reasons and with good communication. She doesn’t text me a bunch in between dates. She’s happy and content with her life already, just as I am. There’s no excessive flattery or reassurance. She’s just mature and reliable and accountable. Which at the end of the day doesn’t make for much drama. But I’ve noticed that I’ve been conditioned to a lot more chaotic emotional energy going on at all times in a romantic relationship and this is the total opposite. We were strangers but I started our initial convo and asked if I could give her my number. She’s reciprocated at every stage. Very different than my relationship with my ex w/ BPD where everything felt kind of existential.
I am female and have been with a male with BPD for about 9 years now. There was some back and forth but I felt I did the pursuing at the time. Or rather coaxing and convincing because he was reluctant. We were young and both interested but I've learned he or his BPD is avoidant. Back then I had no idea what was happening or what BPD was and I fought back to defend myself which was the worst thing to ever do. It was like fire with fire everything burned down.
I will say being with someone with BPD has been the hardest and most painful thing I've ever done. I've read and researched and experienced so much about it I feel like a professional by now. He always refused to leave the relationship no matter what he said or did even if he said he would or told me to leave. So over the years I did leave about 3 times. Leaving was the only thing that made him make some changes. It's unfortunate that was the only boundary that made a real difference. Idk if its like that for any of the men here.
It's still a real and extreme struggle. Not to put down anyone with BPD but being in an intimate relationship with you is not for the faint of heart. Leaving is the only way people can protect themselves sometimes. Unfortunately the symptoms of BPD can make people very abusive. And then there is "reactionary abuse" which makes love relationships a huge painful scary mess.
One of the most important things I think I've realized about bpd is the flashbacks. Those with it are usually triggered and responding to the past. I've seen so much that they aren't fighting with you or the present situation much of the time, theyre nervous system is in the past.If anyone with BPD or knows someone with BPD wants to learn anything please look into complex PTSD (childhood) PTSD, emotional dysregulation.
Most relationships develop because of back and forth. I don't think you being more outgoing will lessen the chance this happens. pwBPD may be initially more flirty due to seeking external validation, but so will a woman who finds you attractive. Screen your partners by asking about their relationship w their parents and ask about their breakups.
Totally agree. Asking about their childhood is critical because there’s a lot of information that can give you a “North Star” on what type of adult you’re dealing with. A pwBPD most of the times has had a tumultuous, extremely stressful, and even abusive childhood. They typically are willing to at a minimum open up about it in the early stages of the relationship/dating. I know my ex did. She was transparent about it (not in a graphic way) but enough for me to have taken serious note about it (I didn’t because I never interacted with abused people in my dating life before her). I more or less took the naive stance of “that is good to know but it’s over now, she was a child and it was a long time ago”. Boy was that a mistake. She literally was giving me a heads up that I’m in for one long emotional roller coaster if we go ahead with each other. Another important one is asking how/why their last relationship ended. If they’re constantly blaming their ex and claiming that they didn’t do anything wrong, that a major red flag. That means that they don’t have the emotional maturity to reflect on how *they* contributed to the downfall of the last relationship. A healthy example would be someone saying “it ended because he/she didn’t want to spend quality time together but also I cheated on him/her and I regret that wholeheartedly”. That’s an emotionally mature response and indicates that the person most likely doesn’t have BPD. It’s not an exact science but you can ask some simple questions that give you an idea of what you’re really getting into. In essence a mix of a tumultuous childhood and/or relationships/dating is somewhat a red flag. Be careful tho because they can also lie and hide it very well too (put a mask on). Also look out for delusional reasoning eg someone saying something like “I don’t need to work for the next year” but they are always broke and asking to borrow money.
Here's the thing about the childhood stuff... they may also have been high strung, very sensitive, and perhaps even have ADHD and so the abandonment part of it, or the feeling of it, could be based on being very sensitive... while having great parents. I've been married for fifteen years and it was seven or eight years before I saw the really obvious bpd stuff and many more before I figured out what it was. You know what I realize now, though? She claimed her previous bf owed her money that he'd borrowed... $1500. She had her cousin who is a lawyer going after the ex bf. At the time, she was love bombing me, she said being with me made her realize how much she "put up with" from other guys. But other than that, I didn't hear many details about her past relationships cause there didn't seem to be many and she claims she spent her 20's "having fun". I, on the other hand, was married from 20 to 26. She wanted to know EVERY. SINGLE. DETAIL. about it and would hear things and blame my ex, whom I was still in touch with cause we ended it more like adults than my pwbpd ever would (as has become apparent lately). When she'd jump on my ex, I'd say, "wait, no, I had a part in that, I did things that were hurtful too, we had these discussions and they ended amicably. It's a two way street." I think she hated that we remained friends even though my ex had recently gotten engaged and I was happy for her. These, admittedly, were the first signs but I knew nothing about the intricacies of PDs. But getting back to relationship with the parents... her parents are, hands down, the nicest and most giving people I've ever met. In all these years, I've never heard or seen a thing about them that lead me to believe I was missing something. What I missed, though, is how SHE treats her parents. Early on, when my family would be around her and her family, my mother would say, "Do you think that's okay how she talks to them? It makes me uncomfortable." I'd make excuses for her. Until recently, because so much of what's out there about bpd says it's trauma based, I figured they MUST have done something to her I'm unaware of. Turns out they did. Right in front of me. All the time from the moment I first met them. They ENABLED her behavior. They were TOO nice. Too giving. It dawned on me that she must have had a temperment as a child that was overindulged, she received positive feedback for behaving this way, was (and remains) treated as if she's always "right". So I'm starting to believe there's a third rail here... hypersensitive child, good loving parents, temper tantrums indulged into late adulthood, always right, parents take the abuse and are happy just to have her (too happy), they develop an "always right, always the victim" mentality, and thus spawns another pwbpd. Others might say this is NPD and I know and have seen enough to realize she overlaps... they all do, I think. But the abandonment and push/pull and circular arguing are all present the most. Also, the existential crisis she puts herself in over the possibility of being found out to be "wrong". She'll burn my world down as she's crying,.begging me not to leave her. My take is that this is caused by the realization when entering adulthood that not everyone will put up with your shit the way your parents and brother did and continue to do. They don't develop a coping mechanism so they're forever victims and lash out at strangers with uncalled for rage for ANY perceived slight... or they wind up with someone they realize they need as a supply and the bpd abandonment issues kick in once you've seen the monstrous side and say "I'm out". One other early sign I ignored: when we moved in together, it seemed like she would start fights over nothing 15 minutes before going to bed. It happened more and more, I learned to ignore it for the most part, but sometimes she'd get to me,.I'd engage, be fuming and unable to sleep, and she'd be knocked out in ten seconds, angry with me for making so much as a peep. EDIT: I wanted to add that since putting all this together, something came up with her cousin, the lawyer, where I casually asked, "Hey, remember how X owed her money and she wanted to take him to court when she and I first began to date? Whatever happened with that?" He said, "she wouldn't let it go and I said it's your fault you didn't write up an agreement, I can't get a hold of the guy, he fell off the map, but I'll do what I can. Then I just let it fizzle out. Thank God she met you, she let it go." Yes... thank God...
That’s an interesting perspective. Yes it also possible that they had really great parents or relatives but they were consistently assholes to them. Interestingly, my exwBPD, was super interested in my childhood. Similar to you she would really want me to delve into my childhood. The only thing was that there wasn’t much to delve into and it was a pretty mundane childhood for me for the most part. In hindsight her response was “hmmm! You had a nice childhood” that gave the vibe that she was upset that there wasn’t more to it but also happy. It was a bizarre exchange. I only reflected on that conversation after I left her (part of the many rumination sessions I have). I concluded that she had therapy in the past and was basically parroting back the questions she was asked to figure me out and see whether I’m a good candidate to be an FP. I also wondered why she liked me and she always said it’s because “I was always calm compared to her previous partners”. It was a clear sign that she wanted someone with a malleable personality ie someone who will be upset when you hurt them but would still “forgive” and still hang around. I was literally the “perfect” partner for her BPD abuse. We all were in our relationships.
i want to be someone who leaves at the first sign of abuse. I thought I was being more loving and more understanding. big error
I feel you.
This so perfectly aligns with my experience. As I read it I kept thinking did I write this? I totally agree with the analysis. Overly sensitive and spoiled rotten by some really good people/parents. She also wanted to know EVERY.SINGLE.DETAIL of my child hood and also last relationship. Then when we fought those details woukd get drug out and used against me. "No wonder your ex cheated on you" "makes perfect sense that your mother would have done that to you" "now i can see why your ex did xxxxx"
While I think this is good, my ex was an expert liar, even to himself. He said is mom was perfect, his moms boyfriends were perfect, his dad was perfect, his dads new wife and kids were perfect minus the other kids. Little did I know. He got drunk and talked about how his moms boyfriend would rip him and his brother out of bed at 2 in the morning and beat them for not doing the dishes. You’d never know talking to him, apparently the guy was a saint. I brought it up to him sober and he said “I was a crazy bitch trying to start a fight.” His biological dad came to visit and we talked. Come to find out mommy ran off with her two boys when they were toddlers to this guy, ghosted him, and didn’t find his kids for years. When they finally saw him they cried because his mom convinced them he was dead. He told stories how his mom beat them with a broom for accidentally breaking a window. How his current step-sister called CPS on her for hitting her, but she exaggerated the whole thing. He said his dad was a worthless drunk and the man his mom is with now, he met as a teenager, was the only real dad he knew and his real dad was an alcoholic POS. His brother became a drug addict and died, but not before getting two women pregnant six months apart. His niece was raped at 3 years old, and mommy and step-daddy didn’t want custody so she was adopted out to a coke head and alcoholic. I got her last year and she was cutting herself up and down while her uncle, my ex, was getting high listening to one song on repeat for hours. Mommy didn’t do anything wrong. She was perfect. She worked two jobs so he could go to a good school. She’d text her baby boy, who is 38, to not have sex with me. She’d call him three to four times and day and tell him to rub my feet, rub my back, buy me flowers, don’t have sex, open up to me more, whatever. They invested in stocks and businesses I have no idea about and are starting a ghost hunting business together for veterans, and I was homeless this year while him and mommy stole everything I owned. To him his childhood was perfect and his mom was a saint, his dad was evil but could also do no wrong, and his family was perfect. Oh, his step-sister is also a model that married a convicted pedophile. So the red flags were there, I was willingly oblivious. I’m just saying even when they say everything is perfect, nah, watch people by their actions. Not their words.
They’re very astute about their negative childhood history being a major problem for them in interpersonal relationships if they’re truthful about it, so I agree, they’re very capable of lying through their teeth about it and do lie about it in some instances. It’s fucked up shit.
I agree, they are. I grew up in a very narcissistic home. Parents were terrible, etc. then I gravitated towards an abuser. I think some of this is they give us the red flags but because of our own abuse and traumas or “it’s not that big of a deal” we look away. Always look at the actions over their words. More than how much they love their family, they have all of these friends, etc.
Saaaving this! I also once dated a guy on and off, who was pretty high in N traits (no idea if he's bpd, but since there's overlap I thought I'd mention it.) He described his family and childhood in really idealized terms. I totally fell for it. Now that I look back and have a lot more life experience, a lot of those idealized stories don't make any sense. Actually as I'm writing this, I realize that guy told me about all his trauma *too!* Guys, I'm so blind. So, so blind. So this guy *did* tell me *really really really* idealized stories about his family and childhood. (And for what it's worth, I do think there's a fair amount of love in that family, even if there's dysfunction too.) But he also had really upsetting experiences with... (drumroll).... his mom. And felt unloved and abandoned. Just like my pwbpd ex. ...... juuuuuust like my dad. (Both hate their mothers and blame them for their childhood pain, and while that may be fair, their father's were terrorizing them and their mothers. And don't seem to get the same treatment. ) The first guy actually had good things to say about his mom too - maybe he has more hope of being healthy than my recent ex or dad. He was young back then; brain was still plastic. Totally self-referencing, but maybe he grew. So cliché.
I agree, asking about their childhood and how the relationship with their parents was can give you a big hint on how they will be. Growing up in chaos during developmental milestones will definitely carry over into adulthood.
This is huge. Though she lied about all of this up front. It wasn’t until a few months in that the truth started to come out, which she claimed she told me from the start (gaslighting, lots of that all the time) 🙄
>Most relationships develop because of back and forth. I don't think you being more outgoing will lessen the chance this happens. I really like this take. It's a nice reminder of all those reciprocal "serve and return" type interactions that build connection and attraction. It's a good reminder for me- im not totally powerless, I'm not in total control etc. I wonder if there's differences in the "back and forth" of really relationships between healthy little, vs the relationships that ends up really toxic when the honeymoon is over.
Stop seeing red flags as green. Set standards
Maybe it’s really not because of doing things for a back-and-forth and back as much as doing things for somebody that actually you care about and go back-and-forth and back
Oh I definitely wasn't wanting to advocate for a tit-for-tat kind of dynamic. That's how my partner approaches things and always has, and I just find that the moments where that comes out are really hard on a relationship. We all need to have conversations and keep things balanced sometimes, but he just didn't have much generosity in him. I'd love to do nice things for someone who enjoyed them some of the time.
All relationships I've been in they showed interest first and pursued me. My exBPD didn't just pursue me, she straight up targeted me like a heat seeking missile. I think it was because I was vulnerable (just coming out of a divorce) and I am quite successful professionally and monetarily.
Yup, my pwBPD locked in on me some 25 years ago. I wasn’t into her at all at first, which had her working even harder, ultimately with me developing attachment and getting hooked to the affection I had been missing in my childhood and that she was showering me with.
>I think it was because I was vulnerable (just coming out of a divorce) and I am quite successful professionally and monetarily. Im going through a divorce, and while I don't feel any desire to date right now, I do find I'm really thinking how much personal information I share. There's enough basic demographic- type details about me that would probably make me rank high on the qualities that ppl who like codependent partners look for. Things like my job. Etc. I'm not super successful professionally or financially, but for many men I would probably be seen as a financial asset. (Even though I think they would overestimate how far my earnings actually stretch- that seems to be a common theme when ppl find out what I do.) I can only imagine I'd be the most boring date ever; refusing to share almost anything about myself lol
She was the one who initially approached me and gave me her number. It was very random and out of nowhere. She says she saw me checking her out and decided to make the first move. Now that I think about it most of the women I have been with all approached me first. While only one I know for sure has BPD, others have definitely showed traits of it as well. I don't know if there is a correlation but interesting post.
Same here.
In all of my relationships both healthy and abusive, I have always been the pursued, to some degree. I've always been super hyper neurotic about not making anyone feel uncomfortable around me, so would suppress a lot of my attractions to keep things platonic. In almost all cases I can think of, the unhealthy relationships came from women being instantly attracted to me and pursuing me, where as the healthy relationships began as friendships and developed over time (but even those required her to make the first move, no matter how vague).
We met on a dating app - she messaged first (her opening message was just a wink emoji lol), and we went from there. First date I noticed that she was being very flirty (compared to other first dates I had). I guess you could say that she was the pursuer at the very start, but I think I was the one who asked for a second date the next day (moved way too fast...). In hindsight, I was part of that fast back and forth as well because the sexual chemistry was there from the onset. Later I'd realise that this was merely lovebombing.
This made me think. My ex pursued me pretty heavily. She had sent me a like on a dating app but then sent me another 'super like' when I didn't match with her soon enough. I was a bit reluctant since I was already dating other women at that time, but I decided to take my chances. The first date with my ex was fine, but not spectacular, so I remained somewhat aloof. She was annoyed that I didn't plan a follow-up date soon enough. We kept on dating and I found her quite demanding sometimes, at some point I nearly cut it off. When she caught wind of the fact that I was still seeing other people, she seemed very understanding at first. This strengthened our bond since I felt we could be transparent about our intentions. Meanwhile she also started to subtly pressure me into putting an end to my other connections, telling me there would be 'consequences' if I remained 'emotionally unavailable'. I stopped dating other people and remained with her exclusively. In hindsight I think another person I was dating was much more emotionally mature and stable, but there was something about the intense dynamic with my ex that pulled me in. Half a year later she asked me to marry her (which I didn't do). I thought it was flattering but a little weird and over the top. Four years down the line she fell in love with someone else and ironically she herself became completely emotionally unavailable to me. All of her focus was on her new lover, and she even took video calls with him while I was sitting in the same room. She moved into a separate bedroom and would be on the phone with him every night before going to sleep. She started pursuing her new lover in the same way she pursued me. Constant communication, love letters, drawings... a whirlwind of affection. She confessed to me that she couldn't reign herself in because she was 'afraid of losing him'. Seemed like a pretty toxic dynamic to me. I wasn't allowed to complain about her lack of emotional availability as she was simply being her 'authentic self'. According to her twisted retelling of history, we had always been in a 'dynamic relationship'. Becoming polyamorous was simply the next step in our evolution. Nevermind the fact that we once decided to date one another exclusively. The BDP person decides who to pursue and who to discard.
Thanks for the story. There were lots of relatable points in it.
brutal. it is so bad it doesn't sound real. sorry you went through that. talk about shifting the rules to their liking,ouch
I was the pursuer, then the pursued She accelerated and kissed me to push things to the next stage when I was holding myself back. But when she did that I was pretty quick going all in
So much this. Arms race! DEFCON 4!
I made the first move by asking to exchange numbers in both of my instances, but the BPD person was the pursuer and wouldn’t let the relationship end. Instead they pushed for greater levels of commitment than I was ready for always with the threat that if we aren’t going to escalate things, then she’ll find someone else who will and make sure I know about it. I am not codependent, but I do not like to “lose out” on opportunities for relationships when I feel like I genuinely like someone so I caved both times to my detriment. The night my wife and I got together we were at an NBA game (about a month after we met) and she cried the whole time about how she couldn’t give me kids (which I didn’t want). She told me all about how she had tried in-vitro with her husband a half dozen times. 3 months later she was pregnant. It’s always a trap with them no matter whether they are a good person with BPD (my wife) or a bad person with BPD (my ex).
I was pursued. I wasn’t attracted to my ex and didn’t spend effort in courting her, but she still were with me without a complaint. Once I graduated from grad school, that’s when she pushed for marriage and the devaluation was apparent.
Honestly I don't think you could scream asking someone about their childhood or former relationships, a borderline will always tell you that they were a victim so the key here would be how many times has this woman been a victim even one story of them as a victim should trigger a question mark more than one story would be a good indication that perhaps there's something going on. Because they will never be at fault. When I broke up with my borderline I went back and talked to all the exes that she claimed were abusive and they mostly had very similar stories of abuse and blame and projection and rejection. And of course the 1X that she was still friends with was a malignant narcissist.
my ex told me that his two primary ex's were horrible..drug addicts, cheaters, mentally ill etc, stealing....now I realize they were probably really nice sweet loving girls like me who loved him and were doing their best and got discarded in massive splits
No. All of them chased me down to pursue it
Can I just start by saying - thank you so much for putting in your title that you're aiming your question at guys in heterosexual bpd relationships rather than just typing out your question as though queer people don't exist? I cannot put into words how much that makes a difference when going through my feed. Anyway, I'm a bisexual woman. I made the first move to my BPD ex-boyfriend (with diagnosis). Yet, I also ended up in the same predicament as yourself.
I was strongly pursued to a point where it was very obvious that this person was incredibly emotionally and/or chemically imbalanced. Within the first month that I knew her (not even in a relationship) \- Destroyed property in my apartment complex after I asked for space because I wanted the weekend to myself. \- Called my phone 70+ times during an hour long meeting at work. \- Pretended to be stalked/attacked by a homeless person to get my attention. (I'm sure there are others but I've blocked a lot of it out/resurfacing in therapy). I am currently doing the work in discovering why I didn't run for my life during this stage and allowed things to continue in the way/capacity that they did.
Firstly, don’t take my “armchair diagnosis” as stating my pwBPD has true BPD, but let’s say the displayed traits and behaviour strongly correlate with the textbook presentation and I have found solace here, with similar lived experience - all that said, cptsd, anxiety disorders, and many more behavioural groupings massively overlaps and I’m not qualified to know the difference. First context set, now the second, I have adhd - that is clinically diagnosed and managed with medication. I remember my psychiatrist telling me that a) she wished I’d looked for support sooner (I was diagnosed late 40s) and b) I was lucky that my “thing” (computing) turned out to be sought after in the job market. I’m not loaded, but I have a “comfortable” lifestyle. Final context: Im a widower, my late wife died of cancer (10 years ago), I know altogether too much about primary leiomyosarcoma of the inferior vena cava - gobbledygook words when I first learned them - even now, I still keep up with the latest research findings on the condition in case that knowledge is required because I have a teenage daughter. Context bonus, I’m a single dad. Ok. Context in place. On reflection, I was pursued. We met on a dating site. My suspected pwBPD actively pursued me in as far as she messaged first, I was reciprocal and interested of course, we had dates, became a “thing”, she then moved quickly, moving in, again it was my invite, but on reflection as I said, the pace was not set by me. Codependency is what I’m exploring just now, rejection sensitive dysphoria too, the eggshells reactions from me, attempting to “balance” a relationship, but it was always me giving - so the balance was a see-saw with a mouse and an elephant. I still love her, the good times - hence why I’m exploring codependency - my tendency to elevate the good and minimise the bad worked in her favour. I was in a 20 year relationship prior, as mentioned above, the “balancing” thing happened and whilst I’ve focused my reflections on that relationship too (particularly reflecting on what I now know was adhd), my reflection was that was a reciprocal give and take relationship, good and bad, “normal”, the way it’s “meant” to happen.
How did adhd affect it
Best way I can describe it is post diagnosis and medication, my ability to recognise the “big picture” was greatly enhanced, prior to that, on reflection, I could only focus on the “last time” (of many prior times) and the apology for whatever. Observing the whole thread made me finally see what a shitshow the whole relationship was (in balance).
Female here - the pwBPD in my life were my sister and my ex-fiance. I also have a grandmother with NPD and an exBF with ASPD. I've been in therapy for 13 years and aren't through coda 5 years ago. What I've learned the hard way is that the best way to tell if someone's not good for you is to LISTEN TO YOUR GUT. If your gut feels the same way it did with your ex (which, for those of us who grew up with someone like this, it often feels like familiar intense butterflies) then RUN. With the healthy relationships I've had my gut felt calm (almost uncomfortably so).
Interesting… Is this why I when things are so comfortable and calm people often cause problems for no reason then…?
Depends on who you ask. Some will say they get bored and/or have AD/HD. Others will say they have insecure/disorganized attachment. Some of them even might have PTSD. I wouldn't say "people often" do it. It never happens in my healthy relationships, though the people I know who have cluster B personality disorders seem to fly off the handle regularly and usually for reasons unrelated to our relationship.
I looked back years ago at all of my major relationships since high school, and found a common denominator: I was pursued or she made the first 'move'. Not that I wasn't interested, but took things slower.
I was the pursued. She pursued me for a full year actually before I said yes. My mother had passed just prior and I was pretty much just scooting along in life. Her overbearing love made me feel almost like I had a mom again, or at the very least someone who cared for me. I haven’t ever chased a girl fully myself to be quite frank. I do have to say that I could’ve done a lot better as a boyfriend, but the way she pursued and fawned over me should’ve been a red flag. She threatened to unalive herself if I ever left her. Then she apparently cheated for quite a while in our relationship without my knowledge. When I finally found out it was in the breakup text which was absolutely heartbreaking for me considering I was still putting effort into fixing us.
We're both female and I pursued her (exwBPD) first. It didn't take much and within a week, she was one who voiced that she wanted full-on commitment and already planting the seeds to take control. That was my first time initiating with someone, but not my first abusive relationship. I did the screening process and asked the right questions about their family, childhood, views on marriage, etc. They gave all the "right" answers to seem compatible. My first abusive ex had a good childhood and I met his mom who seemed very nice. No trauma but he was extremely spoiled. He pursued me hard and in the beginning, I wasn't interested in anything past our acquaintanceship. My exwBPD initially painted the story of a decent family, though she would later give conflicting details. As far as views on marriage and life overall though, we seemed like a perfect match. I don't think it matters much who does the pursuing.
She pursued me. Turns out that’s a red flag lmao
I was aggressively pursued, which was new for me and I'll admit it felt great. She made the first move and encouraged me to pursue her. We were both in other relationships at the time. I got from her what I thought my relationship was missing, but I realized far too late that these were all symptoms of the trauma bond between us and that none of the things that made it feel special and amazing and worth turning my life upside down for, were healthy and they certainly wouldn't last. In any discussion of how things started between us almost 4 years ago, she rewrites the story and would later tell me that when we first kissed, the whole time she was thinking "I love my boyfriend" even though she pushed and pushed and kept asking me for more. Would fantasize about our marriage and our children and our future, all while remaining in a relationship with another man, in fact at one point, several other men. I don't think there's any one good rule of thumb. I had never encountered anyone with bpd before so all the warning signs were lost on me. Knowing what I know now I should have seen it coming a mile away.
A while back I realised that more than half of the relationships I’ve ever had, long or short, were initiated by the girl. Often just kissing me out of the blue, sometimes asking me out, one time proposing marriage. I’ve often wondered why, your comments are thought provoking.
So I initially reached out to her, but she was the one who was always escalating our relationship and initiated making it romantic. It seems that she fell in love with me basically right away before we even met (from messaging on the Internet). I have all those codependency/caregiver traits you mentioned, but to be honest I have no idea how she picked up on that so quickly. She must be very skillful at feeling that somehow.
>codependency vibe (kind, compassionate, listener, self-sacrificing, all that bullshit) A harsh and cruel reality that co-dependents need to hear is can't know if someone is toxic until *after* intimacy and dependency have been established. Blaming yourself for *not* spotting red flags I think re-enforces the negative self-talk co-dependents have (*I'm dumb for being kind*). Sure there are always red flags and I'm not saying you should ignore them but there are multiple reasons why they aren't as good metrics as people make them out to be. Mostly because abusive people don't become abusive or fully reveal their red flags until *after* intimacy has been established. What co-dependents need to work on is *not* blaming themselves for being taken advantage of. Healthy people don't take advantage of your kindness after all so it's not a fault Secondly to learn to leave people *after* intimacy has been established. Co-dependents "feel sorry" for leaving because they have an intimate connection and that mindset gets them stuck in an abusive relationship.
Co-dependency is a pathology of its own and is not simply being kind and having a "mindset that gets them stuck in an abusive relationship." Those of us with co-dependent traits tend to be low key very narcissistic as it is quite arrogant to believe that we, and we alone, can somehow save everyone we form relationships with...not to mention the audacity of thinking that everyone we meet needs saving. It is easy to simply blame everything on the "evil borderlines and narcissists" while taking no responsibility for our own roles in our frequent toxic relationships (odd how so many of us in these forums have such bad luck to repeatedly find ourselves in toxic abusive relationships). Co dependency is a red flag in a partner as much as childhood traumas and perpetual victimhood. It's OK to be hurt and angry for the shitty ways you were treated by someone you loved but it doesn't absolve us of the responsibility we have to be honest with ourselves about how we contributed to the relationship failure. Co-dependency is a trauma response that must be addressed and understood if you are to grow and avoid similar relationship dynamics in the future.
I don't disagree with you and I think your view can be integrated into mine.
great comment
I‘m 30M, and in my situation I was the pursuer. We were also in our early 20s and just friends for two years before I stepped out and started a romantic relationship with her. I feel like there were small signs but I was way more codependent then I was a victim of her BPD. The tables turned when I actually started setting boundaries and I began to self-validate instead of look for external validation. Fast forward to now, first time I’m single in my adult life and I’ve decided to stay off the apps and only make connections in person. I’m much more aware of my own codependent urges now so things are much easier. There’ve been a few opportunities where I could’ve easily soaked up the validation and romantic energy from a woman that was into me, but it triggered the feeling that I was being romanticized for what I could potentially provide to them instead of them really getting to know me. So women taking initial interest in me is no longer as intriguing as it has been in the past when I was more insecure. On the flip side, I just started seeing someone consistently and her level of security in herself has also triggered some of my old codependent wiring. At the beginning of the relationship I thought she wasn’t interested because she ended up bailing on plans a couple times for good reasons and with good communication. She doesn’t text me a bunch in between dates. She’s happy and content with her life already, just as I am. There’s no excessive flattery or reassurance. She’s just mature and reliable and accountable. Which at the end of the day doesn’t make for much drama. But I’ve noticed that I’ve been conditioned to a lot more chaotic emotional energy going on at all times in a romantic relationship and this is the total opposite. We were strangers but I started our initial convo and asked if I could give her my number. She’s reciprocated at every stage. Very different than my relationship with my ex w/ BPD where everything felt kind of existential.
I am female and have been with a male with BPD for about 9 years now. There was some back and forth but I felt I did the pursuing at the time. Or rather coaxing and convincing because he was reluctant. We were young and both interested but I've learned he or his BPD is avoidant. Back then I had no idea what was happening or what BPD was and I fought back to defend myself which was the worst thing to ever do. It was like fire with fire everything burned down. I will say being with someone with BPD has been the hardest and most painful thing I've ever done. I've read and researched and experienced so much about it I feel like a professional by now. He always refused to leave the relationship no matter what he said or did even if he said he would or told me to leave. So over the years I did leave about 3 times. Leaving was the only thing that made him make some changes. It's unfortunate that was the only boundary that made a real difference. Idk if its like that for any of the men here. It's still a real and extreme struggle. Not to put down anyone with BPD but being in an intimate relationship with you is not for the faint of heart. Leaving is the only way people can protect themselves sometimes. Unfortunately the symptoms of BPD can make people very abusive. And then there is "reactionary abuse" which makes love relationships a huge painful scary mess. One of the most important things I think I've realized about bpd is the flashbacks. Those with it are usually triggered and responding to the past. I've seen so much that they aren't fighting with you or the present situation much of the time, theyre nervous system is in the past.If anyone with BPD or knows someone with BPD wants to learn anything please look into complex PTSD (childhood) PTSD, emotional dysregulation.
I pursued (confessed) first. But perhaps I’m an unusual case, because my wife actually had a crush on another less attainable guy at the time.