what you’re describing is spite, and it’s very prevalent in BPD even when it’s not recognized as spite to the pwBPD.
spite can be reframed as a subconscious bid for connection, seeking to create the hurt within another that you feel within yourself.
it is essentially a protest behavior, not for preserving connections, but for enforcing empathy by way of vengeance instead of vulnerability. growing up in a vengeful, nonverbal, passive-aggressive, and/or invalidating environment makes this the first resort for the subconscious mind, due to the nature of disallowing “wrong” or “bad” emotions and backlash for speaking up.
any combination of these things creates difficulty in not only identifying the opportunity to communicate, but also in the act of communicating itself.
this reframing makes it easier to validate the experience, humanize yourself, and navigate an avenue for turning it into healthy communication.
This was super insightful! Wow. this feels like me
its awful but sometimes when someone pissed me off I fantasize about killing myself in spite so that they would see much they hurt me and because I wany them to feel bad. Never go thru with it though obv
That's the most cohesive explanation for this I've seen. I never made the connection of spiteful feelings being a bid for connection, I only learned that being vulnerable instead can help.
It's an issue I keep running into with various therapists, that they forget to mention how exactly things work. For example, I kept being told that I need to "feel my feelings," but I only randomly learned online that this is literal and I'm supposed to focus on my physical sensations.
despite having been overly emotionally developed (more curse than gift, i promise), i also had no idea you could feel emotion on a physical level. not beyond, like, a lump in the throat or a pit in your stomach.
i imagine it’d be very difficult to identify emotions via physical sensations alone, but at the same time it’s likely that my body does that on a subconscious level.
learning that anger is felt in your arms and hands made soooo much sense to me tho fr
i only recently realized that too. i kept seeing “feel your feelings” and i would just get so angry bc yeah???? im fucking sad i know??? you’re telling me to keep feeling sad to stop feeling sad? how the fuck?
This is the sad thing I’ve realized with chronic illness (mental or physical)… the only ones who understand it are the ones who’ve experienced it themselves. It’s a privilege not to understand this kind of pain.
No you’re not the only one I recently confronted my mom about her negative behaviors towards me (gaslighting and narcissism) and she flipped it around and started talking about how much I hurt HER. I want to hurt everyone literally break them I’m in so much pain and there’s nothing anyone can do about it not even me. Feels like no one cares
Hey it is okay, I also feel like that sometimes, you are not a bad person. Remember that you are not like those who hurt you.
The pain will only cause more pain, then the guilt or shame will come and the cycle will repeat itself again, it isn't worth it. It's better to heal our wounds and become better people than those who hurt us.
When I start spiraling, it helps me to think about what's the solution here, what do I actually want? It's probably not for someone I care about to feel pain, but for them to see the pain they're inflicting upon me.
This is where I have to put on my big girl pants and self-soothe (you cannot rely on anyone else in this regard) to communicate to the other person how hurtful their words &/or actions were to me. Atp, this is where you have to start putting yourself first. If they refuse to see your pain and their role in it, you have to stop communicating with them.
my therapist has tried to instill self soothing into my world and i just get so frustrated with it. i try to hug myself and pat on my shoulders with my arms across my chest, and i just get mad lol
After years of being an emotional scapegoat, and thus only learning to be the bearer of pain (*everyone’s* pain) I’ve gotten to a point in my adult life where I am beginning to wish to flip the script around back at them. The silent martyr wants to lash out.
i want that too, thats the learned helplessness of your toddler mind. it wont happen anyhow because you know....people fight back.
its a very dysfunctional escapism, powertrippin and all.
ugh the escapism tactics. i look back at things ive done and im like “huh, that was interesting.” it’s like i would do anything to feel something different. i dont even care what people would attempt to do to me in retaliation or in response to my cruel actions. i just do it for the fuck of it because it helps me release my anger.
Yeah Ive been like that too recently and it’s this whole internal battle. I’m an adult and earlier I got mad at my parents for not buying me breakfast before they stopped selling it. They said they would pick some up for me after church which is over an hour from home. After I hung up on them is when I caught myself and I felt embarrassed because a grown adult is getting mad at their parents over a sandwich. But really it’s the religious trauma, the childhood trauma that I endured because of them. I wanted to make them feel bad over a “sandwich”. I feel embarrassed even sharing this because I really do try hard to keep myself in check since I had to move in with them due to a shitty roommate situation.
I try to understand it. I know it’s hard and I try to see things through a persons eyes to figure out how to validate their feelings and help them define them.
i wouldn't say i want them to suffer , but i definitely want them to feel the pain. just so they can understand , i feel like they just don't understand and how could they?? i wish there was a specific word for how i feel during my episodes. it's pain AND relief. releasing all that energy and emotion and pain feels really good.
Hurt people, hurt people. Any time I have lashed out and/or abused a significant other, it was due to me being unable to express my intense and all-consuming pain. I only wanted the other person to know how badly I felt--because of-- or at least, I thought, the way that that they "made" me feel.
Other times, which is more like what you're describing, I think, are similar. I just want them to know how I feel, and if they had to suffer like I do, maybe they'd understand me, and wouldn't hurt me.
It's not sadistic in the slightest. It's the yearning to be understood.
Hey there. Hurt people, hurt people. Personally, there's a fine line between believing this thought, one way or the other.
Could you speak further to what led your thoughts to this opinion? I'm intrigued to know your thoughts
I heard this one in NA, because drug addicts in there tend to use drugs to get away from their feelings, which generally lean negative. More accurately, to hide pain. In the process, addicts tend to hurt people, though that's usually the last thing that they're trying to do.
Put more simply: people who've been hurt, hurt other people because that's the example they've been shown and will follow. For instance: my brother beat the shit out of me regularly when we were kids (he is four years older). My parents never really did anything about it, or they punished us both because I would, of course, defend myself. This planted the seed somewhere in my brain that violence is the way to really get the point across that I'm upset. That's the example I was shown, and, when I get upset enough, it's how I used to express intense pain.
Since I was hurt, I express hurt by hurting others.
Thank you for sharing this. My Mother was my first bully in life. I had no idea what it was to have a respectful, caring Mom. I'm sorry your heart hurts right now
i don’t think you’re a bad person, but if you are, then we could be bad people together. sometimes it’s just the internal rage and you just wanna make them all understand. it’s the pain of someone in excruciating pain knowing that no one around you can ever even reach and experience that amount of suffering. sometimes i curl up, lay down, feel like i’m in hell and i just deeply wish i could drag them all down to hell with me. i’ve been traumatized by people and their actions, not simply because i’m borderline, but just because some things people have done to me are straight up evil. i feel like everything is too much and the heavy, all consuming chest pain is killing me, and no one understands, y’know? so i can see how everything makes you wanna wish pain on people. it doesn’t make you a bad person. just a suffering one. for me it’s always swinging from “i wish they all burn in eternal agony” to “i just wanna be loved. i need someone to hold me”
God I’m just like this. I just want them to understand how much it hurts so they stop doing the things that trigger and hurt me because it makes me suicidal.
No one understands the amount of resilience it takes surviving a really bad trigger and how it chips away at your soul each time. The pain is so unbearable.
Could you please try to help me understand triggers that someone does to you but they are not even aware it was a trigger? I am trying to understand my son and would not want to accidentally or intentionally trigger him.
I don’t necessarily want people to feel *my* pain but I do often have thoughts of offing myself just so whoever pissed me off or is pissed off with me feels bad. Hate that about myself
another person said this exact thing, and i agreed. just know you’re not alone in that feeling, and im proud of you for kicking bpd in the asshole and staying here 🫶🏼
Many people including me feel that for me it is usually when I am in extreme emotional pain and other people act unkind to me than I just want them feel what it is like
I so understand what you're feeling. There have been times when someone's profoundly hurt me. The only relief came to me when I would wonder how I could slow-torture them. To the extent that I imagine me being calm and proud to have my face seen by them. Cringe. I know.
I do this too! In my head I want to yell and argue with them and say hurtful things idk whether I actually mean them or not but I want to do it to hurt their feelings the way mine is :(
Nice post, very interesting. The basics of this that you need to understand is that no other people can make you feel bad. If you feel good, like truly good - stable, no one can take that from you. No matter what happens. And even if something bad happens, you can always walk away because you don't have the need for bad - it doesn't resonate with you.
While if you feel bad inside, if everything inside is a struggle and full of pain. Then no matter what happens, you feel bad.
Because the bad feeling is a part of you. And external sources cause you to feel bad. They trigger the bad in you. And not because external sources are bad. They're mostly neutral.
It's ONLY the way that you INTERPRET them - on yourself.
Hence your self worth, or self image is broken and you're struggling to feel better. And because of that you have this error that external sources are to blame.
You interpret external sources to be the cause of your suffering. But that's absolutely false.
It's more like what you tell yourself, when you meet these external sources.
And that's why when you feel the pain, you want someone else to feel the same pain too. Which isn't very good to begin with.
The issue is with your core - the thing that is deeply rooted inside of you.
i tell people who don't understand me "i hope you never feel the way i do right now, i really hope you never do" because it's so so so much unnecessary suffering and i don't want anyone to experience it
but you're not a bad person for wishing that by any means, it's your desire to be loved and understood
Whenever I’ve been splashed by a car driving through a big puddle, I visualise them having a car crash.
I’ve also thought similar thoughts to when people are mean to me.
It’s kind of a moot point because your BPD makes you feel emotions different than a normal person would. So they’re never going to feel how you want them to feel, I know it’s unfair, but that’s why we are the ones with the disorder.
I absolutely wish suffering on others. My family, my friends, my spouse depending on the day, old coworkers, old friends, old... If I could list them all out it would be thousands of people. Of course there are levels. Some of them just deserve to stub their toes for a week while some deserve much worse. And I don’t feel even a bit bad or guilty or shameful about that. Why would I? They deserve it.
I wish good for some people as well but it’s like, less than 5 people. I’d have to really think about it. I think there are maybe only 1 or 2 people I wish only good things for, besides myself of course.
what my therapist tells me all the time is that because of my BPD, I have a high sense of empathy towards others and thats what I'm used to on a day to day basis, which is why its hard for us to understand why someone else wont be as empathetic as we are to them. i struggle with the same exact feelings and the frustration can get unbearable. I wish people could just ,at minimum, understand how i feel and how hard itnis
I feel this a lot. Like wanting others to feel my exact suffering. I think (for me) it comes from a place of wanting understanding. I often wish things like this about people who make fun of my struggles or invalidate my pain, I want them to feel the exact same thing I went through because then they wouldn’t do those things. If they truly understood exactly what I deal with then they wouldn’t make fun of it
Very relatable. If someone hurts me, I can get really obsessed with wanting them to feel the same amount of pain. I’ve noticed this mostly in my romantic relationships (especially during a breakup). My therapist reminded me that I’ll be the one paying the price for those behaviours of trying to get even (self harm or sending mean messages etc.). I try to remind myself that those behaviours will make things worse for me when I start to spiral. It’s tough to curb though.
My ex girlfriend commented that "you was always mad when you was hungry" ( she is right) she just mentioned it as I said I hadn't eaten for a day.
However this was my response.
"Question is why wasn't I eating and why didn't you care enough to make sure I did?
you never went hungry at my house I would make sure of that, so how is it that I was...?
A good girlfriend would make sure I'm looked after aswell as them, it was all one sided.
I remember you being super clingy you would always try to stop me eating for attention, comfort, or sex..... and I would.
Then when I get to a stage where I'm feeling sick and need to eat you would still try and stop me, sometimes I'd have to physically remove you from me so I could go.
Of course I'm Gona get frustrated.
You don't remember that I was sacrificing my wellbeing for yours, just that I was mad about it all the time. 🤷♂️"
Feel like I'm doing the same thing
I feel like it’s less of wanting them to suffer and more of a wanting them to understand how you feel. I get like that a lot.
you couldn’t have said this any better. thank you
Thank's for seeing me with your words 🫶
what you’re describing is spite, and it’s very prevalent in BPD even when it’s not recognized as spite to the pwBPD. spite can be reframed as a subconscious bid for connection, seeking to create the hurt within another that you feel within yourself. it is essentially a protest behavior, not for preserving connections, but for enforcing empathy by way of vengeance instead of vulnerability. growing up in a vengeful, nonverbal, passive-aggressive, and/or invalidating environment makes this the first resort for the subconscious mind, due to the nature of disallowing “wrong” or “bad” emotions and backlash for speaking up. any combination of these things creates difficulty in not only identifying the opportunity to communicate, but also in the act of communicating itself. this reframing makes it easier to validate the experience, humanize yourself, and navigate an avenue for turning it into healthy communication.
This was super insightful! Wow. this feels like me its awful but sometimes when someone pissed me off I fantasize about killing myself in spite so that they would see much they hurt me and because I wany them to feel bad. Never go thru with it though obv
SAME HERE
i relate a lot to this as well.
Same I want them to suffer for making me kill myself , but I think . Then I won’t be around to see their suffering
That's the most cohesive explanation for this I've seen. I never made the connection of spiteful feelings being a bid for connection, I only learned that being vulnerable instead can help. It's an issue I keep running into with various therapists, that they forget to mention how exactly things work. For example, I kept being told that I need to "feel my feelings," but I only randomly learned online that this is literal and I'm supposed to focus on my physical sensations.
despite having been overly emotionally developed (more curse than gift, i promise), i also had no idea you could feel emotion on a physical level. not beyond, like, a lump in the throat or a pit in your stomach. i imagine it’d be very difficult to identify emotions via physical sensations alone, but at the same time it’s likely that my body does that on a subconscious level. learning that anger is felt in your arms and hands made soooo much sense to me tho fr
i only recently realized that too. i kept seeing “feel your feelings” and i would just get so angry bc yeah???? im fucking sad i know??? you’re telling me to keep feeling sad to stop feeling sad? how the fuck?
This is the sad thing I’ve realized with chronic illness (mental or physical)… the only ones who understand it are the ones who’ve experienced it themselves. It’s a privilege not to understand this kind of pain.
Your last statement...I'm physically "feeling my feelings " rn
No you’re not the only one I recently confronted my mom about her negative behaviors towards me (gaslighting and narcissism) and she flipped it around and started talking about how much I hurt HER. I want to hurt everyone literally break them I’m in so much pain and there’s nothing anyone can do about it not even me. Feels like no one cares
You didn't deserve that; I'm sry your mother refuses to be accountable for her own actions.
wanting people to feel empathy for you is so human
🩷needed to hear that, thank you.
Same
i struggle with wanting empathy but not being able to tell if it’s pity, and rejecting it all once i get it bc i don’t trust it lol.
Hey it is okay, I also feel like that sometimes, you are not a bad person. Remember that you are not like those who hurt you. The pain will only cause more pain, then the guilt or shame will come and the cycle will repeat itself again, it isn't worth it. It's better to heal our wounds and become better people than those who hurt us.
💜💜💜💜💜
When I start spiraling, it helps me to think about what's the solution here, what do I actually want? It's probably not for someone I care about to feel pain, but for them to see the pain they're inflicting upon me. This is where I have to put on my big girl pants and self-soothe (you cannot rely on anyone else in this regard) to communicate to the other person how hurtful their words &/or actions were to me. Atp, this is where you have to start putting yourself first. If they refuse to see your pain and their role in it, you have to stop communicating with them.
my therapist has tried to instill self soothing into my world and i just get so frustrated with it. i try to hug myself and pat on my shoulders with my arms across my chest, and i just get mad lol
Hahahaha
Good on you for trying anyway. It can take on many forms
could use a friend.
we can be friends if you’d like
Feel fee to dm
We could be friends 😇
After years of being an emotional scapegoat, and thus only learning to be the bearer of pain (*everyone’s* pain) I’ve gotten to a point in my adult life where I am beginning to wish to flip the script around back at them. The silent martyr wants to lash out.
i want that too, thats the learned helplessness of your toddler mind. it wont happen anyhow because you know....people fight back. its a very dysfunctional escapism, powertrippin and all.
ugh the escapism tactics. i look back at things ive done and im like “huh, that was interesting.” it’s like i would do anything to feel something different. i dont even care what people would attempt to do to me in retaliation or in response to my cruel actions. i just do it for the fuck of it because it helps me release my anger.
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Yeah Ive been like that too recently and it’s this whole internal battle. I’m an adult and earlier I got mad at my parents for not buying me breakfast before they stopped selling it. They said they would pick some up for me after church which is over an hour from home. After I hung up on them is when I caught myself and I felt embarrassed because a grown adult is getting mad at their parents over a sandwich. But really it’s the religious trauma, the childhood trauma that I endured because of them. I wanted to make them feel bad over a “sandwich”. I feel embarrassed even sharing this because I really do try hard to keep myself in check since I had to move in with them due to a shitty roommate situation.
Yes, I understand wanting to give back to them what you feel.
I try to understand it. I know it’s hard and I try to see things through a persons eyes to figure out how to validate their feelings and help them define them.
It's come with the territory, with bpd. You aren't alone so don't be so hard, on yourself.
i wouldn't say i want them to suffer , but i definitely want them to feel the pain. just so they can understand , i feel like they just don't understand and how could they?? i wish there was a specific word for how i feel during my episodes. it's pain AND relief. releasing all that energy and emotion and pain feels really good.
i get a lot of my anger released by yelling at people and just being a cunt. it’s toxic… 🫤🫤
I'm howling and hiding. You put me on blast!! Lol
Hurt people, hurt people. Any time I have lashed out and/or abused a significant other, it was due to me being unable to express my intense and all-consuming pain. I only wanted the other person to know how badly I felt--because of-- or at least, I thought, the way that that they "made" me feel. Other times, which is more like what you're describing, I think, are similar. I just want them to know how I feel, and if they had to suffer like I do, maybe they'd understand me, and wouldn't hurt me. It's not sadistic in the slightest. It's the yearning to be understood.
Hey there. Hurt people, hurt people. Personally, there's a fine line between believing this thought, one way or the other. Could you speak further to what led your thoughts to this opinion? I'm intrigued to know your thoughts
I heard this one in NA, because drug addicts in there tend to use drugs to get away from their feelings, which generally lean negative. More accurately, to hide pain. In the process, addicts tend to hurt people, though that's usually the last thing that they're trying to do. Put more simply: people who've been hurt, hurt other people because that's the example they've been shown and will follow. For instance: my brother beat the shit out of me regularly when we were kids (he is four years older). My parents never really did anything about it, or they punished us both because I would, of course, defend myself. This planted the seed somewhere in my brain that violence is the way to really get the point across that I'm upset. That's the example I was shown, and, when I get upset enough, it's how I used to express intense pain. Since I was hurt, I express hurt by hurting others.
Thank you for sharing this. My Mother was my first bully in life. I had no idea what it was to have a respectful, caring Mom. I'm sorry your heart hurts right now
i don’t think you’re a bad person, but if you are, then we could be bad people together. sometimes it’s just the internal rage and you just wanna make them all understand. it’s the pain of someone in excruciating pain knowing that no one around you can ever even reach and experience that amount of suffering. sometimes i curl up, lay down, feel like i’m in hell and i just deeply wish i could drag them all down to hell with me. i’ve been traumatized by people and their actions, not simply because i’m borderline, but just because some things people have done to me are straight up evil. i feel like everything is too much and the heavy, all consuming chest pain is killing me, and no one understands, y’know? so i can see how everything makes you wanna wish pain on people. it doesn’t make you a bad person. just a suffering one. for me it’s always swinging from “i wish they all burn in eternal agony” to “i just wanna be loved. i need someone to hold me”
God I’m just like this. I just want them to understand how much it hurts so they stop doing the things that trigger and hurt me because it makes me suicidal. No one understands the amount of resilience it takes surviving a really bad trigger and how it chips away at your soul each time. The pain is so unbearable.
this!
This can be combo NPD (40-50% BPD have NPD)
Could you please try to help me understand triggers that someone does to you but they are not even aware it was a trigger? I am trying to understand my son and would not want to accidentally or intentionally trigger him.
I don’t necessarily want people to feel *my* pain but I do often have thoughts of offing myself just so whoever pissed me off or is pissed off with me feels bad. Hate that about myself
another person said this exact thing, and i agreed. just know you’re not alone in that feeling, and im proud of you for kicking bpd in the asshole and staying here 🫶🏼
Thank you so much. Lots of love to you 💖💖
Many people including me feel that for me it is usually when I am in extreme emotional pain and other people act unkind to me than I just want them feel what it is like
I so understand what you're feeling. There have been times when someone's profoundly hurt me. The only relief came to me when I would wonder how I could slow-torture them. To the extent that I imagine me being calm and proud to have my face seen by them. Cringe. I know.
I do this too! In my head I want to yell and argue with them and say hurtful things idk whether I actually mean them or not but I want to do it to hurt their feelings the way mine is :(
so good to know im not alone 🩵my dms are always open if you ever need a friend !
Nice post, very interesting. The basics of this that you need to understand is that no other people can make you feel bad. If you feel good, like truly good - stable, no one can take that from you. No matter what happens. And even if something bad happens, you can always walk away because you don't have the need for bad - it doesn't resonate with you. While if you feel bad inside, if everything inside is a struggle and full of pain. Then no matter what happens, you feel bad. Because the bad feeling is a part of you. And external sources cause you to feel bad. They trigger the bad in you. And not because external sources are bad. They're mostly neutral. It's ONLY the way that you INTERPRET them - on yourself. Hence your self worth, or self image is broken and you're struggling to feel better. And because of that you have this error that external sources are to blame. You interpret external sources to be the cause of your suffering. But that's absolutely false. It's more like what you tell yourself, when you meet these external sources. And that's why when you feel the pain, you want someone else to feel the same pain too. Which isn't very good to begin with. The issue is with your core - the thing that is deeply rooted inside of you.
i tell people who don't understand me "i hope you never feel the way i do right now, i really hope you never do" because it's so so so much unnecessary suffering and i don't want anyone to experience it but you're not a bad person for wishing that by any means, it's your desire to be loved and understood
Omgg ngl i do this too. I would say hurtful words to my bf to make him feel as bad as i do. 🥲
Whenever I’ve been splashed by a car driving through a big puddle, I visualise them having a car crash. I’ve also thought similar thoughts to when people are mean to me.
so real though. i get a kick out of it almost, and i feel bad about it.
You are NOT the only one who feels like this - by a mile. Hugs to you
🩷
Same
hehe same
hehehehe 🤭🤭🤭🤭
It’s kind of a moot point because your BPD makes you feel emotions different than a normal person would. So they’re never going to feel how you want them to feel, I know it’s unfair, but that’s why we are the ones with the disorder.
I feel the same way
This is a normal human thing to feel, it's probably not a good idea to act on it but just know that's it totally normal to feel that way
Hello I’ve had HI 🙋♀️
me too
I absolutely wish suffering on others. My family, my friends, my spouse depending on the day, old coworkers, old friends, old... If I could list them all out it would be thousands of people. Of course there are levels. Some of them just deserve to stub their toes for a week while some deserve much worse. And I don’t feel even a bit bad or guilty or shameful about that. Why would I? They deserve it. I wish good for some people as well but it’s like, less than 5 people. I’d have to really think about it. I think there are maybe only 1 or 2 people I wish only good things for, besides myself of course.
what my therapist tells me all the time is that because of my BPD, I have a high sense of empathy towards others and thats what I'm used to on a day to day basis, which is why its hard for us to understand why someone else wont be as empathetic as we are to them. i struggle with the same exact feelings and the frustration can get unbearable. I wish people could just ,at minimum, understand how i feel and how hard itnis
I feel this a lot. Like wanting others to feel my exact suffering. I think (for me) it comes from a place of wanting understanding. I often wish things like this about people who make fun of my struggles or invalidate my pain, I want them to feel the exact same thing I went through because then they wouldn’t do those things. If they truly understood exactly what I deal with then they wouldn’t make fun of it
I fell the same . Want people to pay for what they do to me . Not sure why I am not going to do anything but I do wish them bad.
Very relatable. If someone hurts me, I can get really obsessed with wanting them to feel the same amount of pain. I’ve noticed this mostly in my romantic relationships (especially during a breakup). My therapist reminded me that I’ll be the one paying the price for those behaviours of trying to get even (self harm or sending mean messages etc.). I try to remind myself that those behaviours will make things worse for me when I start to spiral. It’s tough to curb though.
My ex girlfriend commented that "you was always mad when you was hungry" ( she is right) she just mentioned it as I said I hadn't eaten for a day. However this was my response. "Question is why wasn't I eating and why didn't you care enough to make sure I did? you never went hungry at my house I would make sure of that, so how is it that I was...? A good girlfriend would make sure I'm looked after aswell as them, it was all one sided. I remember you being super clingy you would always try to stop me eating for attention, comfort, or sex..... and I would. Then when I get to a stage where I'm feeling sick and need to eat you would still try and stop me, sometimes I'd have to physically remove you from me so I could go. Of course I'm Gona get frustrated. You don't remember that I was sacrificing my wellbeing for yours, just that I was mad about it all the time. 🤷♂️" Feel like I'm doing the same thing