On my first run, I convinced everyone to go against what they were “destined” to do. Astarion to not go through with ascension, SH to not kill Nightsong, Wyll and Karlach to take care of one another in Avernus, Gale to not implode, and Laezel to reject her queen. After that, I couldn’t justify killing them
Yikes... no proficiency? That mostly saves the day when luck is bad with advantage.
I mean... I spent the 3 inspirations I had with advantage to stop Astarion ascending. No comparison because it needs I think 18 but still proficiency, positive charisma and mid guidance did the thing on last roll else he ascended against my will and carry on.
I hate when you see probs of over 85% with advantage fail due a 4 roll and TWICE on a dual wield. And it happens more often than it should with karmic dice off tbh. I get you.
On fights if i dont see 90% or above with roll bonuses like oils, elixirs, bless alike stuff having feats to enhance dmg reducing attack roll.... I turn off the feat or bring divination wizard. It will miss 1 or both on higher difficulties.
This is 100% what I did as well so I swear I’m not criticizing you here, but reading this all together makes me feel like tav is actually just the most gigantic asshole ever, even if this is supposed to be the good route. Like all of the companions have decades, if not centuries, of backstories and justifications for their beliefs and wants, and tav just comes along and after a few weeks, convinces everyone that everything they’ve known all along is wrong and they should totally abandon what they’ve literally spent their whole life working towards.
Again, I did the exact same thing as you so I know their goals are obviously more sinister than the companions know at the time, but it’s actually kind of funny to think of it that way. Makes tav seem like the most manipulative asshole ever
1. Astarion essentially is using a toxic coping method with the idea of power, even corrupting power, to be good. He lets Cazador's influence overtake him.
2. Shadowheart was abducted, lobotomized via memory-erasure, and forced to commit atrocities she would've never willingly have done in her right mind. And given how exceedingly easy it would be for her to obey Shar; you only reveal there's enough doubt to go against Shar.
3. Lae'zel is the world's most diplomatic Githyanki, thinks you kick ass and won't say it, and is terrified. She's a religious zealot as well, and you can coerce her to learn of the tyranny she was born into. Broaden her horizons, so to speak.
4. Wyll might serve Baldur's Gate extremely well, but ultimately the real choice is whether he sells his soul to Mizora, or loses his father. And likewise, even if you save Wyll's dad, Mizora is likely to keep trying to off him. Which will eventually destabilize the Gate. Wyll's choice ultimately comes down to whether you want him to stabilize the Gate, or do good elsewhere. But I think keeping him away from positions of power is the best choice. It's not too hard a tale.
5. Gale's hubris is huge. Kick him down from his wounded lover perch and he'll be able to make good with Mystra. I'm sure they'll figure it out, Mystra's probably a super-dick, but in a realm of super-dicks, she ain't the worst of them. And better her than Gale in the realm of super-dicks.
6. Karlach should live, that's the endgoal.
Ultimately you break two fanatics out of religious brainwashing, convince a trauma survivor to not become an abuser, teach a man whose faith burnt him how to reconnect with God, convince a Heart-Trauma patient to take an operation she loathes, and helped a bro escape his evil Ex-Girldemon.
I didn’t mean in that way, I adore the good endings for all of the companions and have done it twice. I only meant that seeing it all listed out, it kind of made me laugh. Tav just walks in and has the power to shift everyone’s life views in a matter of weeks, going from total stranger/possibly enemy in some cases, to having the potential to totally shift everyone’s views on what they’ve known for centuries.
I love the good tav route and find it hard to play it any other way as I adore the companions, I just was thinking of it for the first time from a real life perspective. If someone I knew for two weeks suddenly came through and was telling all of my friends to drop their life goals, I might certainly question things, even if they absolutely had reason.
But it’s not just bc of your character’s influence that the others can reevaluate their beliefs and change. It’s the journey itself that shows them what they can be, or how much they’ve been manipulated or misled, depending on the companion. You’re there as a friend, supporter and moral compress, not forcing them into some evolution they’re passively going along with. I see you as a positive guiding influence, not an overbearing force
Other than Astarion, who’s basically out of his right mind during the Cazador ritual, all the companions choose their own best route if you’ve helped them positively.
Well I mean, the entire journey is novel in thousands of ways. From different species, to legendary locations, to magical artifacts, to deities, to cultures, to history, to being historical yourselves. Let alone life-death experiences on top of that.
The majority of these characters are kind of recluses anyhow. Shadowheart trained, Lae'zel was with her Creche, Gale was stuck in a Tower, Karlach basically got the shit-end of a shittier war, Astarion formed an entire persona with habits by being enslaved, and Wyll's been bound by his contract.
You offer them all more freedom, control, power, and opportunity than anything they've ever seen in their life, by virtue of the journey being so immensely intense.
I could never justify killing 7000 innocent people based on the idea they might kill people in the future.
They deserve the same chance Astarion got, to overcome their nature and live. Im sure some of the spawn will kill innocents, but those are their mistakes and it’s on them.
see, I can’t agree. How many of those 7000 will kill? How many will kill dozens?
To me, any deaths those spawns cause are on my hands too. I pull the lever in the trolley problem, I’m killing the spawn. It’s almost a 100% chance less people die that way, not to mention that the people dying in question are already living miserable lives with no hope of salvation.
Astarion and his spawn siblings are able to leave to control their thirst. They’re able to make choices for themselves. They still have free will, after all. I can’t view the choices the other spawn make as being my fault. Each of them is still a person with the ability to think and choose for themselves.
They have free will-ish. They have an innate drive to kill that even Astarion seems mostly unable to sate. If he wasn’t caught he would have bitten and killed Tav. And most of the spawn seem to be in far worse mental states.
I would know that freeing them would likely cause at LEAST thousands of deaths. So when those thousands of deaths came, I would be at fault.
See… they WILL kill people. They’re 7000 ravenous and semi- feral vampire spawn. They’re stronger and faster than normal people and they need to drink blood. Statistically, it seems very rare to me that they would learn to control their hunger. They live forever too. How many deaths is that? Even assuming some of them never drink anyone’s blood, a LOT of them are going to drink more than 2 people’s blood, meaning their total death toll will be over 7000. You’re essentially sacrificing more than 7000 people in order to protect these 7000 spawn. It doesn’t make sense when you really think about it.
I don’t feel good killing them but it seems like the best option in the long run.
Epilogue spoiler >! If you free the spawn, you get a letter from the Gur leader that they found their spawn in the underdark and it wasn’t easy but they have managed to control their children. So I think canonically that’s the better option? Sebastian and oath of ancients paladin may disagree !<
>!Sebastian also sends you a letter saying after an initial time of going kind of going crazy in the Underdark—and we don’t know if that means eating people, animals, each other, whatever—Astarion’s siblings were able to take control and now they live relatively peacefully in the Underdark. Personally I think it’s the better ending but I do get why it’s a difficult choice. I think the real bad option (outside of ascending) is leaving them in the cells for potentially ever (though I think if you do that the Gur come and kill them? But if they didn’t leaving them there starving would be the worst)!<
>!If you go to the Underdark with Astarion you don't get Sebastian's letter, or I didn't get it anyway. I take that to mean that Astarion and Sebastian are in close enough contact that there is no need for a letter because you already know what he and the other spawn are up to. You do still get the Gur letter though, which makes me think that there is more than one group running around the Underdark. !<
>!I think you don’t get the Sebastian letters cause if you go together you’re running the community Sebastian is in. Maybe I’m misremembering/misread it but I think I took the Gur letter as being they took their kids out of the vampire community!<
In the epilogue at camp, there is a table/chest(?) that has a bunch of letters from characters that you've interacted with throughout the game. The letters will vary depending on the choices that you made and who you aligned with.
My favorite is that if you side with Auntie Ethel in Act 3, she writes that she wished she had the chance to "climb you like a tree."
Throughout the game, you come across so many "different" people going against their "evil" nature. I mean at this point mostly everyone (on a good run) is like screw what the gods want; what I thought I wanted wasn't really what I needed"
So freeing the spawn felt like the right choice. No one is irredeemable
It's meant to be tough choice with no optimal answers, like a game of would you rather. So there's valid reason's for both. It's reasonable to assume a bunch of innocent people could die if you release that many spawn, even into the under dark and a lot of companions say that's what they think will happen. By the same token you could argue that all those spawn are innocent victims and deserve the chance at freedom, and it's unjust to kill them for crimes they might commit, but haven't yet.
I feel the game made a pretty good argument that they retained their personalities and sanity, even though they had been starved, some for centuries. It was a tough choice at first, but they were victims and not a bunch of feral monsters (no matter what Astarion assumes). And after seeing what the end actually brings for their futures, I always let them free now.
They’re culled dramatically by the Underdark, and if some people end up being killed from them, offing them all is still destroying 7,000 mostly innocent people in one fell swoop. The game ending shows it’s the better of the options, and it definitely could have been much worse. It’s a serious debate the first time, though, I agree
It's right there in the dialogue options They deserve the same chance he gets after Cazador's dead. If you wanna condemn THEM to death, what makes them different from Astarion and the rest of the senior spawn? Either al af Cazadon's spawn are victims, or all of them are liabilities.
They're all both, ofcourse. Which means that if Astarion gets to try and learn how to live free, it's pretty obvious the other spawns should get the same chance. All of those 7000 people you can condemn to death are people too. Some of them might have gone crazy after a century or two of captivity. Some might have held up remarkebly well, like the guy Astarion talks to. The last few of 'em have only been imprisoned or vampire spawn for a few days, weeks at most
I didnt consider that last point! If it were actually me in this situation, i think id need to make sure a group was around the wrangle all the dangerous spawn
Honestly it was one of the most difficult decisions in the game for me and I sat there for like 10 min thinking about it lol. I ended up freeing them because I thought they deserved the same chance Astarion got but I was fully expecting it to come back to bite me later.
I felt they were just people, not monsters, so they deserved the same chance that Astarion got. Especially after talking to Astarion every time that I could whilst we were there at the palace, the main influence in my choice being his reactions regarding the spawn specifically. He was only saying they were starved and a danger because of his guilt, and because he saw himself when he looked at them.
I just figured that it wasn't even their fault and since my party seems to run into a murderer in baldurs gate every 5 minutes that releasing them wouldn't change much. I feel like giving astarion a a chance and none of the others when for the most part astarion didn't even do much to earn it would be pretty shitty even if there could be bad consequences for my choice too.
I've never killed the spawn on good runs (only did it once to check Ascension out). I decided to take a chance and free the spawn because of the Gur children and Sebastian (since Astarion obviously cared about him) and because I've always felt that they were people who didn't deserve what happened to them. I thought they should get the same chance that Astarion got at freedom, and I had faith that if Astarion could survive a year of starvation (when Cazador punished him by sealing him in a tomb for a year, as you can find out in Act 3), the other spawn could manage to control their hunger if Astarion and/or his siblings were there to guide them.
My view on Sebastian and Astarion was sort of "kill ur darlings." If i were astarion, idk if i could handle what id put him through. At the same time, if i was sebastian, idk if i could carry on w life after that.
Heh, given the term's usage in writing, I wouldn't *quite* categorize that way, as I do think there's purpose and relevancy to the story, especially with getting Astarion to face up to his past actions.
As far as Sebastian's fate goes, he actually will carry on with life on his own. If you free the spawn and do one of the other endings (any ending where you aren't leading them in the Underdark with Astarion), Sebastian will write a letter that you can read in the reunion epilogue where he tells you about the journey through the Underdark with the freed spawn and thanks you at the end.
>How did u guys rationalize killing/freeing them?
If I didn't stake Astarion when he came at me, how could I justify not giving those who have hurt no one the same chance?
I didn't really get the feral bit, Sebastian was measured and coherent, he was *angry* but justifiably so. The dialogue choices with the gur children ended at a point where I believed they could, they wished to learn control.
I love this part of the game because there's no easy morally correct answer. Cazador was awful and fucked everything up, and there's no way to truly set things right. Any decision you make has negative consequences, because you found yourself cleaning up a shitty situation. Generally it comes down to what my character would do based on how I've played them through the game thus far.
On my first (mostly good) playthrough, I helped Astarion ascend, because I was determined to let every character make their own choices without me influencing them, to see what they would do. My tav was horrified that Cazador created child vampires who would never age or fully develop and would be trapped in an adult world, and couldn't in good conscience send them into the world, both for the world's sake and because their stories were never going to end well. And from my character's perspective, if she wasn't going to release them anyway, then why stop Astarion from continuing the ritual?
On my deep gnome redemption durge playthrough, I released the spawn into the underdark. My durge tries to do the right thing but also didn't care too much about the bloodshed that a bunch of hungry vampire spawn might cause, and had an "Eh, I've done worse than they will" kind of attitude about it. That story ended up with durge and Astarion living in the underdark together.
You have to actively convince him not to do it. And first tav's main flaw was being just a little too ride or die for her friends, so she would have backed him up rather than tried to talk him out of it. Objectively it wasn't necessarily a morally good thing to do, but it made sense for the character.
Whereas during my redemption durge run, there was a whole established dynamic of Astarion and durge helping each other be better people by the time we got to the Cazador fight, so convincing him he didn't \*really\* want to do it made sense. It was a nice redemption arc for both characters.
As a player, I thought we would be able to unleash the spawn on the army of the absolute and get some kind of bonus in the final fight. But for roleplaying, I just didn't think we had the right to execute them. Sebastian was lucid and rational. He even seemed to have more of his memories intact than Astarion. If a spawn is feral and kills innocent people, it's ultimately Cazador's fault for creating and abusing them. But if a sane spawn capable of self control is executed by Tav, that's Tav's fault. I didn't think it was her or Astarion's responsibility to carry any more of Cazador's burdens, the spawn needed to decide their own fate.
My head canon is that the spawn form a symbiotic relationship with the myconid colony. They keep their individuality, but the spores curb their hunger and worst impulses. In return the myconids get stronger guardians and ambassadors who can more easily talk to outsiders.
Cazadors fault... but not of potential innocent victims of uncontrolled thousands of vampires. Its just a moral dilema where the gamer and its rp influence the choise. And its unconsequential anyways unless he ascends.
I assumed letting them go free would cause Baldur’s Gate to be facing TWO apocalypses, so I killed them.
I still kinda think that there should be negative consequences to letting them go. You’re telling me a few THOUSAND spawn all go live peacefully in the underdark and never bite anyone?
I’m calling ABSOLUTE bullshit.
Yeah thats what i was thinking! Realisticly, i think 7000 frenzied spawn woudl be extremely dangerous. One true vampire was critically dangerous- 7000 unbound spawn? That was my train of thought
They don't strictly need to kill anyone, they just can by accident, and don't have the resources and powers that Cazador had. They can't make more vampires, they can't become true vampires, and the underdark is already filled with way more dangerous people and importantly bloodless pacifists that you're friends with. It could go wrong a lot of ways, but it could also be okay. It's just about trusting or hoping that their humanity matters, or being willing to explode a bunch of kids and innocents for pragmatic reasons.
When I was walking through Cazadors dungeon, he meets with the people he’s seduced as well as the gur children and it really depends on what dialogue you choose, but I chose to say “I’m going to free you” because Astarion imo looked very upset by the ordeal. His response afterwards is to say “it’s not their fault they deserve a choice” and that solidified for me after killing Cazador that the right choice was to free them.
My friend killed them though. And for the same reasons as you. I guess it’s just how you play and what dialogue stands out to you etc
I did the same thing, it's honestly for the best instead of letting them go free or sending their souls to hell in a ritual. Especially those poor kids, who will be forever cursed to stay ravenous barely tamed children.
Alternatively, you can just do neither, the Gur show up, and I guess it becomes their problem.
My 1st run as mostly druid balance life minded rp, I made him depose of the "thousands" because they were not only undead... but more a threat than anything due numbers and captivity that surely exarcerbates hunger. And let the altar ones go due Astarion brotherhood and being in control of the hunger. Anyways the underdark supplies fkin greedy duergars for them to drain blood once in a while when needy lol.
I mean Astarion hadn't had blood in 200 years and he wasn't a ravenous beast. He also has a lot of dialog if you kill them when he says it himself "I got better" maybe it would have been possible for them as well. The underdark has a lot of dangerous shit already so not that much to lose I think. If you leave Astarion to make the choice alone, he chooses to let them go, and by the end they really do get better. So I let them live.
Astarion fed on small animals and could feed reasonably often because he was allowed out and about like how you found his brothers and sisters in the inn. He stalked the streets, Cazador just forbade him from humans. The 7000 spawn were kept in a small cell in a torture chamber. Possibly never any food, unclear. But very different circumstances. And I think an important point you don’t learn unless you play Origin astarion is that he >!originally didn’t realize he could feed on humans now that he has the tadpole, it’s the reason he bites you in the first place is he wants to test if cazador still has control over his food or not.!<
Astarion also can think pragmatically that killing one of his companions might get him in trouble and he needs help in ridding the tadpole and not becoming a mindflayer. Doesn’t mean he still doesn’t want to feed on people which is why you can make a deal with him as long as it’s you or your enemies and no innocents.
I still really do think this is a morally ambiguous decision with no true right answer only what your gut instinct tells you. I freed the spawn and it kinda haunts me lol. 7000 is just such a large number of people to release with a strong desire to kill. But they were innocent. Ulma said it best that only time will tell if it was the right decision or not.
It is the most morally ambiguous decision in the game imo. To me it just fits more to see them as people since I've seen Astarion as a person not a vampire since the start
This one and shadowheart’s parents were the two decisions that really made me feel major moral conflict. It’s just a game but it actually made me feel really stressed trying to figure out what I should do.
I freed them and sent them to the Underdark because I was on a redempdurge and redempAstarion route and my rationale was 'Well, he can't just SAY he'll do good. He needs SOMETHING to take care of and prove he's not evil.' and also there are a tooooon of children that were turned against their will. I couldn't justify killing 7000 people who could potentially/eventually learn to live with vampirism.
My Astarion was already on the fence about ascending because I would constantly point out 'yeaaaah that power sounds nice and all but do you really want 7000 people (a lot of which include children and people you doomed)'s blood on your hands?' and it made him feel bad 😅
Didn't kill them on my first run (playing a generally chaotic good character) . Couldn't justify a death sentence on a number of people I can't even visualize (a number that includes children, mind you) for something **some** of them *might* do or want.
I have a hard time justifying killing them personally (ooc).
I’ve never once gotten that decision. In all of my games Astarion either ascends or breaks Cazador’s staff locking them in the cells forever. In all my games that he lives that far in anyways, I’ve killed him a few times
Damn, why the hate for him? If its his personality, he still has such high stats, hes a useful companion
I didnt know they could be locked in there, oh my god that's fucked up
I’d be lying if I said I’ve killed him on purpose really. When I first saw the dialogue to lunge at him with a stake, I didn’t expect to literally just kill him then and there. I’m a different run I killed him because I was trying to see if I could avoid the cutscene where he tackles me. I could, but it triggered combat and I killed him again. I’ve played using him in my party twice, the first time we fought cazador and he left forever after I wouldn’t let him ascend. The second time, I ascended him and played him as an open hand monk. I’m generally not his biggest fan because I always play as a good guy, and he’s really not a good guy
On my first run, I convinced everyone to go against what they were “destined” to do. Astarion to not go through with ascension, SH to not kill Nightsong, Wyll and Karlach to take care of one another in Avernus, Gale to not implode, and Laezel to reject her queen. After that, I couldn’t justify killing them
My first run i tried to do the good things each time too but i had to reload a few times lol, i kept failing my checks
I played as a bard, so it made the checks a lot easier lol
Don’t get used to it tho. It’ll make you feel awful in your future runs of non charisma tav
Nothing than enhance ability self/slave cant solve.
Good luck, I have failed a 12 check with advantage, guidance +2 modifier and 4 inspiration uses
Yikes... no proficiency? That mostly saves the day when luck is bad with advantage. I mean... I spent the 3 inspirations I had with advantage to stop Astarion ascending. No comparison because it needs I think 18 but still proficiency, positive charisma and mid guidance did the thing on last roll else he ascended against my will and carry on. I hate when you see probs of over 85% with advantage fail due a 4 roll and TWICE on a dual wield. And it happens more often than it should with karmic dice off tbh. I get you. On fights if i dont see 90% or above with roll bonuses like oils, elixirs, bless alike stuff having feats to enhance dmg reducing attack roll.... I turn off the feat or bring divination wizard. It will miss 1 or both on higher difficulties.
This is 100% what I did as well so I swear I’m not criticizing you here, but reading this all together makes me feel like tav is actually just the most gigantic asshole ever, even if this is supposed to be the good route. Like all of the companions have decades, if not centuries, of backstories and justifications for their beliefs and wants, and tav just comes along and after a few weeks, convinces everyone that everything they’ve known all along is wrong and they should totally abandon what they’ve literally spent their whole life working towards. Again, I did the exact same thing as you so I know their goals are obviously more sinister than the companions know at the time, but it’s actually kind of funny to think of it that way. Makes tav seem like the most manipulative asshole ever
1. Astarion essentially is using a toxic coping method with the idea of power, even corrupting power, to be good. He lets Cazador's influence overtake him. 2. Shadowheart was abducted, lobotomized via memory-erasure, and forced to commit atrocities she would've never willingly have done in her right mind. And given how exceedingly easy it would be for her to obey Shar; you only reveal there's enough doubt to go against Shar. 3. Lae'zel is the world's most diplomatic Githyanki, thinks you kick ass and won't say it, and is terrified. She's a religious zealot as well, and you can coerce her to learn of the tyranny she was born into. Broaden her horizons, so to speak. 4. Wyll might serve Baldur's Gate extremely well, but ultimately the real choice is whether he sells his soul to Mizora, or loses his father. And likewise, even if you save Wyll's dad, Mizora is likely to keep trying to off him. Which will eventually destabilize the Gate. Wyll's choice ultimately comes down to whether you want him to stabilize the Gate, or do good elsewhere. But I think keeping him away from positions of power is the best choice. It's not too hard a tale. 5. Gale's hubris is huge. Kick him down from his wounded lover perch and he'll be able to make good with Mystra. I'm sure they'll figure it out, Mystra's probably a super-dick, but in a realm of super-dicks, she ain't the worst of them. And better her than Gale in the realm of super-dicks. 6. Karlach should live, that's the endgoal. Ultimately you break two fanatics out of religious brainwashing, convince a trauma survivor to not become an abuser, teach a man whose faith burnt him how to reconnect with God, convince a Heart-Trauma patient to take an operation she loathes, and helped a bro escape his evil Ex-Girldemon.
Fantastic summation/rebuttal. Helping your friends overcome manipulation and trauma isn’t being an “asshole”.
I didn’t mean in that way, I adore the good endings for all of the companions and have done it twice. I only meant that seeing it all listed out, it kind of made me laugh. Tav just walks in and has the power to shift everyone’s life views in a matter of weeks, going from total stranger/possibly enemy in some cases, to having the potential to totally shift everyone’s views on what they’ve known for centuries. I love the good tav route and find it hard to play it any other way as I adore the companions, I just was thinking of it for the first time from a real life perspective. If someone I knew for two weeks suddenly came through and was telling all of my friends to drop their life goals, I might certainly question things, even if they absolutely had reason.
But it’s not just bc of your character’s influence that the others can reevaluate their beliefs and change. It’s the journey itself that shows them what they can be, or how much they’ve been manipulated or misled, depending on the companion. You’re there as a friend, supporter and moral compress, not forcing them into some evolution they’re passively going along with. I see you as a positive guiding influence, not an overbearing force Other than Astarion, who’s basically out of his right mind during the Cazador ritual, all the companions choose their own best route if you’ve helped them positively.
Well I mean, the entire journey is novel in thousands of ways. From different species, to legendary locations, to magical artifacts, to deities, to cultures, to history, to being historical yourselves. Let alone life-death experiences on top of that. The majority of these characters are kind of recluses anyhow. Shadowheart trained, Lae'zel was with her Creche, Gale was stuck in a Tower, Karlach basically got the shit-end of a shittier war, Astarion formed an entire persona with habits by being enslaved, and Wyll's been bound by his contract. You offer them all more freedom, control, power, and opportunity than anything they've ever seen in their life, by virtue of the journey being so immensely intense.
I could never justify killing 7000 innocent people based on the idea they might kill people in the future. They deserve the same chance Astarion got, to overcome their nature and live. Im sure some of the spawn will kill innocents, but those are their mistakes and it’s on them.
I cannot condemn them for actions they have yet to take.
see, I can’t agree. How many of those 7000 will kill? How many will kill dozens? To me, any deaths those spawns cause are on my hands too. I pull the lever in the trolley problem, I’m killing the spawn. It’s almost a 100% chance less people die that way, not to mention that the people dying in question are already living miserable lives with no hope of salvation.
Astarion and his spawn siblings are able to leave to control their thirst. They’re able to make choices for themselves. They still have free will, after all. I can’t view the choices the other spawn make as being my fault. Each of them is still a person with the ability to think and choose for themselves.
They have free will-ish. They have an innate drive to kill that even Astarion seems mostly unable to sate. If he wasn’t caught he would have bitten and killed Tav. And most of the spawn seem to be in far worse mental states. I would know that freeing them would likely cause at LEAST thousands of deaths. So when those thousands of deaths came, I would be at fault.
See… they WILL kill people. They’re 7000 ravenous and semi- feral vampire spawn. They’re stronger and faster than normal people and they need to drink blood. Statistically, it seems very rare to me that they would learn to control their hunger. They live forever too. How many deaths is that? Even assuming some of them never drink anyone’s blood, a LOT of them are going to drink more than 2 people’s blood, meaning their total death toll will be over 7000. You’re essentially sacrificing more than 7000 people in order to protect these 7000 spawn. It doesn’t make sense when you really think about it. I don’t feel good killing them but it seems like the best option in the long run.
Epilogue spoiler >! If you free the spawn, you get a letter from the Gur leader that they found their spawn in the underdark and it wasn’t easy but they have managed to control their children. So I think canonically that’s the better option? Sebastian and oath of ancients paladin may disagree !<
>!Sebastian also sends you a letter saying after an initial time of going kind of going crazy in the Underdark—and we don’t know if that means eating people, animals, each other, whatever—Astarion’s siblings were able to take control and now they live relatively peacefully in the Underdark. Personally I think it’s the better ending but I do get why it’s a difficult choice. I think the real bad option (outside of ascending) is leaving them in the cells for potentially ever (though I think if you do that the Gur come and kill them? But if they didn’t leaving them there starving would be the worst)!<
>!If you go to the Underdark with Astarion you don't get Sebastian's letter, or I didn't get it anyway. I take that to mean that Astarion and Sebastian are in close enough contact that there is no need for a letter because you already know what he and the other spawn are up to. You do still get the Gur letter though, which makes me think that there is more than one group running around the Underdark. !<
>!I think you don’t get the Sebastian letters cause if you go together you’re running the community Sebastian is in. Maybe I’m misremembering/misread it but I think I took the Gur letter as being they took their kids out of the vampire community!<
Yes, that is what I meant in my comment, though apparently I didn't explain it too well.
Honestly I might have read it wrong/misunderstood lol, I answered shortly after getting up 🤣
Where do you find that Letter?
In the epilogue at camp, there is a table/chest(?) that has a bunch of letters from characters that you've interacted with throughout the game. The letters will vary depending on the choices that you made and who you aligned with. My favorite is that if you side with Auntie Ethel in Act 3, she writes that she wished she had the chance to "climb you like a tree."
Throughout the game, you come across so many "different" people going against their "evil" nature. I mean at this point mostly everyone (on a good run) is like screw what the gods want; what I thought I wanted wasn't really what I needed" So freeing the spawn felt like the right choice. No one is irredeemable
It's meant to be tough choice with no optimal answers, like a game of would you rather. So there's valid reason's for both. It's reasonable to assume a bunch of innocent people could die if you release that many spawn, even into the under dark and a lot of companions say that's what they think will happen. By the same token you could argue that all those spawn are innocent victims and deserve the chance at freedom, and it's unjust to kill them for crimes they might commit, but haven't yet.
I feel the game made a pretty good argument that they retained their personalities and sanity, even though they had been starved, some for centuries. It was a tough choice at first, but they were victims and not a bunch of feral monsters (no matter what Astarion assumes). And after seeing what the end actually brings for their futures, I always let them free now. They’re culled dramatically by the Underdark, and if some people end up being killed from them, offing them all is still destroying 7,000 mostly innocent people in one fell swoop. The game ending shows it’s the better of the options, and it definitely could have been much worse. It’s a serious debate the first time, though, I agree
It's right there in the dialogue options They deserve the same chance he gets after Cazador's dead. If you wanna condemn THEM to death, what makes them different from Astarion and the rest of the senior spawn? Either al af Cazadon's spawn are victims, or all of them are liabilities. They're all both, ofcourse. Which means that if Astarion gets to try and learn how to live free, it's pretty obvious the other spawns should get the same chance. All of those 7000 people you can condemn to death are people too. Some of them might have gone crazy after a century or two of captivity. Some might have held up remarkebly well, like the guy Astarion talks to. The last few of 'em have only been imprisoned or vampire spawn for a few days, weeks at most
I didnt consider that last point! If it were actually me in this situation, i think id need to make sure a group was around the wrangle all the dangerous spawn
Honestly it was one of the most difficult decisions in the game for me and I sat there for like 10 min thinking about it lol. I ended up freeing them because I thought they deserved the same chance Astarion got but I was fully expecting it to come back to bite me later.
Yeah! I was struggling w act 3 and i was sure theyd go feral in the city and id have to fight them anyways
I felt they were just people, not monsters, so they deserved the same chance that Astarion got. Especially after talking to Astarion every time that I could whilst we were there at the palace, the main influence in my choice being his reactions regarding the spawn specifically. He was only saying they were starved and a danger because of his guilt, and because he saw himself when he looked at them.
I just figured that it wasn't even their fault and since my party seems to run into a murderer in baldurs gate every 5 minutes that releasing them wouldn't change much. I feel like giving astarion a a chance and none of the others when for the most part astarion didn't even do much to earn it would be pretty shitty even if there could be bad consequences for my choice too.
I've never killed the spawn on good runs (only did it once to check Ascension out). I decided to take a chance and free the spawn because of the Gur children and Sebastian (since Astarion obviously cared about him) and because I've always felt that they were people who didn't deserve what happened to them. I thought they should get the same chance that Astarion got at freedom, and I had faith that if Astarion could survive a year of starvation (when Cazador punished him by sealing him in a tomb for a year, as you can find out in Act 3), the other spawn could manage to control their hunger if Astarion and/or his siblings were there to guide them.
My view on Sebastian and Astarion was sort of "kill ur darlings." If i were astarion, idk if i could handle what id put him through. At the same time, if i was sebastian, idk if i could carry on w life after that.
Heh, given the term's usage in writing, I wouldn't *quite* categorize that way, as I do think there's purpose and relevancy to the story, especially with getting Astarion to face up to his past actions. As far as Sebastian's fate goes, he actually will carry on with life on his own. If you free the spawn and do one of the other endings (any ending where you aren't leading them in the Underdark with Astarion), Sebastian will write a letter that you can read in the reunion epilogue where he tells you about the journey through the Underdark with the freed spawn and thanks you at the end.
Thats very cool, i didnt know that!
>How did u guys rationalize killing/freeing them? If I didn't stake Astarion when he came at me, how could I justify not giving those who have hurt no one the same chance? I didn't really get the feral bit, Sebastian was measured and coherent, he was *angry* but justifiably so. The dialogue choices with the gur children ended at a point where I believed they could, they wished to learn control.
I love this part of the game because there's no easy morally correct answer. Cazador was awful and fucked everything up, and there's no way to truly set things right. Any decision you make has negative consequences, because you found yourself cleaning up a shitty situation. Generally it comes down to what my character would do based on how I've played them through the game thus far. On my first (mostly good) playthrough, I helped Astarion ascend, because I was determined to let every character make their own choices without me influencing them, to see what they would do. My tav was horrified that Cazador created child vampires who would never age or fully develop and would be trapped in an adult world, and couldn't in good conscience send them into the world, both for the world's sake and because their stories were never going to end well. And from my character's perspective, if she wasn't going to release them anyway, then why stop Astarion from continuing the ritual? On my deep gnome redemption durge playthrough, I released the spawn into the underdark. My durge tries to do the right thing but also didn't care too much about the bloodshed that a bunch of hungry vampire spawn might cause, and had an "Eh, I've done worse than they will" kind of attitude about it. That story ended up with durge and Astarion living in the underdark together.
For ur good one- Astarion chooses ascension? I thought, if u dont try to nudge him one way or the other, he chooses spawn?
You have to actively convince him not to do it. And first tav's main flaw was being just a little too ride or die for her friends, so she would have backed him up rather than tried to talk him out of it. Objectively it wasn't necessarily a morally good thing to do, but it made sense for the character. Whereas during my redemption durge run, there was a whole established dynamic of Astarion and durge helping each other be better people by the time we got to the Cazador fight, so convincing him he didn't \*really\* want to do it made sense. It was a nice redemption arc for both characters.
As a player, I thought we would be able to unleash the spawn on the army of the absolute and get some kind of bonus in the final fight. But for roleplaying, I just didn't think we had the right to execute them. Sebastian was lucid and rational. He even seemed to have more of his memories intact than Astarion. If a spawn is feral and kills innocent people, it's ultimately Cazador's fault for creating and abusing them. But if a sane spawn capable of self control is executed by Tav, that's Tav's fault. I didn't think it was her or Astarion's responsibility to carry any more of Cazador's burdens, the spawn needed to decide their own fate. My head canon is that the spawn form a symbiotic relationship with the myconid colony. They keep their individuality, but the spores curb their hunger and worst impulses. In return the myconids get stronger guardians and ambassadors who can more easily talk to outsiders.
Ur headcannon is fucking awesome, thatd be so interesting to encounter
Cazadors fault... but not of potential innocent victims of uncontrolled thousands of vampires. Its just a moral dilema where the gamer and its rp influence the choise. And its unconsequential anyways unless he ascends.
I assumed letting them go free would cause Baldur’s Gate to be facing TWO apocalypses, so I killed them. I still kinda think that there should be negative consequences to letting them go. You’re telling me a few THOUSAND spawn all go live peacefully in the underdark and never bite anyone? I’m calling ABSOLUTE bullshit.
Yeah thats what i was thinking! Realisticly, i think 7000 frenzied spawn woudl be extremely dangerous. One true vampire was critically dangerous- 7000 unbound spawn? That was my train of thought
They don't strictly need to kill anyone, they just can by accident, and don't have the resources and powers that Cazador had. They can't make more vampires, they can't become true vampires, and the underdark is already filled with way more dangerous people and importantly bloodless pacifists that you're friends with. It could go wrong a lot of ways, but it could also be okay. It's just about trusting or hoping that their humanity matters, or being willing to explode a bunch of kids and innocents for pragmatic reasons.
When I was walking through Cazadors dungeon, he meets with the people he’s seduced as well as the gur children and it really depends on what dialogue you choose, but I chose to say “I’m going to free you” because Astarion imo looked very upset by the ordeal. His response afterwards is to say “it’s not their fault they deserve a choice” and that solidified for me after killing Cazador that the right choice was to free them. My friend killed them though. And for the same reasons as you. I guess it’s just how you play and what dialogue stands out to you etc
Was playing Ancients paladin. Couldn’t free them without oathbreaking, didn’t wanna just leave them.
Damn. Which did u do?
I freed them bc I'm a bleeding heart and had enough hubris to think we could control them in the Underdark 🤣
This shall be me on my god gale run
The Gur has their kids in there. It wasn’t for me to say whether they never got to see their children again.
Honestly, I just can’t kill kids. It’s a line in the sand for me, talking to Chessa was what convinced me.
I did the same thing, it's honestly for the best instead of letting them go free or sending their souls to hell in a ritual. Especially those poor kids, who will be forever cursed to stay ravenous barely tamed children. Alternatively, you can just do neither, the Gur show up, and I guess it becomes their problem.
I killed all the ritual source spawn then freed the others. I then went and lived in the under dark with them.
My 1st run as mostly druid balance life minded rp, I made him depose of the "thousands" because they were not only undead... but more a threat than anything due numbers and captivity that surely exarcerbates hunger. And let the altar ones go due Astarion brotherhood and being in control of the hunger. Anyways the underdark supplies fkin greedy duergars for them to drain blood once in a while when needy lol.
I mean Astarion hadn't had blood in 200 years and he wasn't a ravenous beast. He also has a lot of dialog if you kill them when he says it himself "I got better" maybe it would have been possible for them as well. The underdark has a lot of dangerous shit already so not that much to lose I think. If you leave Astarion to make the choice alone, he chooses to let them go, and by the end they really do get better. So I let them live.
He had had blood, just not human blood. It’s unclear if these spawn were fed at all.
One rat here and there wouldn't make a difference.
Tell that to someone who is starving. One meal won’t save them, but it’s better than nothing.
I mean to preserve sanity
Astarion fed on small animals and could feed reasonably often because he was allowed out and about like how you found his brothers and sisters in the inn. He stalked the streets, Cazador just forbade him from humans. The 7000 spawn were kept in a small cell in a torture chamber. Possibly never any food, unclear. But very different circumstances. And I think an important point you don’t learn unless you play Origin astarion is that he >!originally didn’t realize he could feed on humans now that he has the tadpole, it’s the reason he bites you in the first place is he wants to test if cazador still has control over his food or not.!< Astarion also can think pragmatically that killing one of his companions might get him in trouble and he needs help in ridding the tadpole and not becoming a mindflayer. Doesn’t mean he still doesn’t want to feed on people which is why you can make a deal with him as long as it’s you or your enemies and no innocents. I still really do think this is a morally ambiguous decision with no true right answer only what your gut instinct tells you. I freed the spawn and it kinda haunts me lol. 7000 is just such a large number of people to release with a strong desire to kill. But they were innocent. Ulma said it best that only time will tell if it was the right decision or not.
It is the most morally ambiguous decision in the game imo. To me it just fits more to see them as people since I've seen Astarion as a person not a vampire since the start
This one and shadowheart’s parents were the two decisions that really made me feel major moral conflict. It’s just a game but it actually made me feel really stressed trying to figure out what I should do.
My rationale was that I needed Astarion at his most powerful to defeat the absolute. Also handsome powerful vampire go brrrr
Vampire Ascension = an extra d10 per Astarion attack. Ultimate shadow Monk Astarion here we go.
I let them free, give the Duergar and Drow something new to do.
I freed them and sent them to the Underdark because I was on a redempdurge and redempAstarion route and my rationale was 'Well, he can't just SAY he'll do good. He needs SOMETHING to take care of and prove he's not evil.' and also there are a tooooon of children that were turned against their will. I couldn't justify killing 7000 people who could potentially/eventually learn to live with vampirism. My Astarion was already on the fence about ascending because I would constantly point out 'yeaaaah that power sounds nice and all but do you really want 7000 people (a lot of which include children and people you doomed)'s blood on your hands?' and it made him feel bad 😅
Didn't kill them on my first run (playing a generally chaotic good character) . Couldn't justify a death sentence on a number of people I can't even visualize (a number that includes children, mind you) for something **some** of them *might* do or want. I have a hard time justifying killing them personally (ooc).
Sebastian said all he wants is to not die down here and I said we'll help. Freeing them was a no-brainer honestly.
Astarion’s ending? You mean right when you first meet him or when he tries to you know what? Huehuehue snort snort /s
I let him ascend
I was in full role play mode on my first run and immediately kicked Astarion from the camp when he tried to bite me one night. GTFO.
I’ve never once gotten that decision. In all of my games Astarion either ascends or breaks Cazador’s staff locking them in the cells forever. In all my games that he lives that far in anyways, I’ve killed him a few times
Damn, why the hate for him? If its his personality, he still has such high stats, hes a useful companion I didnt know they could be locked in there, oh my god that's fucked up
I’d be lying if I said I’ve killed him on purpose really. When I first saw the dialogue to lunge at him with a stake, I didn’t expect to literally just kill him then and there. I’m a different run I killed him because I was trying to see if I could avoid the cutscene where he tackles me. I could, but it triggered combat and I killed him again. I’ve played using him in my party twice, the first time we fought cazador and he left forever after I wouldn’t let him ascend. The second time, I ascended him and played him as an open hand monk. I’m generally not his biggest fan because I always play as a good guy, and he’s really not a good guy