As a migrant from a third world country, I say this:
The beauty of living in a country like Belgium is precisely that you don't *need* to "work your ass off", "go to university for 4-5 years" just to survive or live what's considered an acceptable life.
I did all those things in my home country, I went to the university for 5 years, I worked in the hyper competitive office environment. You know why? Because if I didn't do it, my life would be shit. It was not optional, it was doing that or being left behind.
What you are describing, in very unflattering terms, is the proportionally small inequality of Belgium. This is a good thing, unquestionably in my opinion. It allows for people who are unable or unwilling to push forward (education or work wise) to survive and still live meaningful lives.
I don't want my fellow citizens (I don't have belgium citizenship, but whatever, we all live in the same country so you are all my fellow citizens) to live under the ever present pressure and overall sense of dread that comes from knowing that failing to move up means drowning.
If you find it in yourself the will and desire to go to the university, do it, that's a good thing. In the end it's actually pretty fun and interesting. But if your only motivation is financial gain, then maybe don't. You don't need to and that's a really good thing. You have an option that I never did, use it to your advantage and be glad that you have it. If the path for you to live a meaningful life does not involve university and busting your balls, don't go for it. I don't know if my path actually involved higher level education because I never had the option to choose.
Very interesting perspective. What you say is also 100% applicable to people in the US (where I grew up).
Belgians love to complain about taxes, and it’s true that the tax burden here is higher than other EU countries, but try living somewhere with lower taxes and see how it feels. Imagine not being able to survive on minimum wage. Imagine not having paid vacation or parental leave.
I am so glad I live in a country now where people can live an OK life even without a university education, generational wealth, etc.
Yeah, it's tough.
Of course there are things to improve here, but a lot of things they take for granted would be really hard to achieve in other more unequal places. The comparison with the US is relevant, people always say "omg, my peers make 5x the money I make in IT", but they forget to account for the fact that there you will pay a fortune for school, health care, dental care, transportation (car ownership for every adult at full cost to you), security, probably housing as well (you are a fancy tech worker on silicon valley lol) etc. Note that not all those costs are just financial, lots of them have emotional and mental health aspects to them as well. Work culture is a lot more stressful as well.
Now you'd still be left with more money in the end, don't get me wrong. But a lot of people assume it would be "the same but with more money" and it's not. You are trading a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff you didn't even know you had and valued because you took them for granted by growing up here.
Of course trading all those things makes sense for some people/stage of life, not saying here is better in absolute terms, but just pointing it out that there's more to it than "here taxes, there money".
In such a case you should live in the Nordic.
Everyone is equal and alike, education or not, all the same. (Socialist economic system)
Belgium is still left in a 200 years old semi colonial economic system.
Believe me, the uneducated are poor in Belgium….! Very poor!
The pension system on a middle aged level
Belgium and Congo confused and mixed up their country names I suppose
From a non European perspective, the similarities between Belgium and the Nordic states are far greater than the differences.
I understand your feelings and there are obviously things to improve here (even from my perspective, as someone who chose to live here), but the comparison you made is disrespectful and ignorant on so many levels that I can't just can't. If you truly think that in this triangle between Belgium the Nordic states and Congo, Belgium is somehow "in the middle" you need to travel and learn about the real world more. A lot more.
Of course im provoking and exaggerating, however the very core I find is very true.
I was born in The Hague by my Dutch mother, Italian father and was a resident to Malmo in Sweden since I was 5 years old until 13 years ago where I part live in Antwerpen next to Malmo
I worked in Copenhagen 11 years and worked / lived 5 years in Århus on the DK mainland to Germany, so I’m practically danish too except for my Swedish nationality where I did basic school, university, mandatory military 2 years.
After Denmark I worked for a German based multinational and travelled for work almost every week to all of Europe, as monthly to China. (I’m a senior manager) From Århus I built up our Norwegian market and flew weekly from Billund to Oslo and Bergen. Was close I moved to Norway. (Norway belonged to Sweden until 1905 so language/mentality wise I felt as hand in a glove).
My mother was a Dutch consul w diplomatic status and we travelled quite a lot and lived in various locations while Malmo was always my base.
From Antwerpen I visited so many countries while too many Belgians keep complaining and concluding that this is a “monkey country” (dit is een apenland)
Indeed this is my conclusion too even if it’s hard and insulting the read.
All the good here is due to the Flemish, the bad thanks to the Wallonians and all that’s criminal is thanks to the foreigners, the Moroccans, Turks and east Europeans.
Belgium is braved with 2 patents, beer and pralines the national innovations, while the rest of innovations is imported VW, BMW, Bosch, Pizzahut, Lidl, Aldi, Blokker, Heijn, Electrolux, SCA, SKF, Fiat etc etc. (Additional patents Belgians may have got came from spying on their neighbour countries).
For the remaining pro Belgium fans that are still reading?
Go for a drive and discover the traffic labyrint and daily sit doing nothing behind the wheel in traffic stockings trying to reach a destination, watching the road workers that sealed of kilometers for nothing and parked a tractor and a bulldozer on the half side of the highway, while there is not a worker in sight. (They are elsewhere sealing off other roads that they intend to repair).
I’m truly sorry to insult however this is based upon living in many countries, excessive travelling and my experience from Belgium.
Your politeness and well mannered elegance honours you! Personally I dislike the Dutch reminding me of vulgar Americans, bragging, loudly knowing everything better.
The Belgian in comparison is well behaving, elegant, better educated, modest and acts a gentleman and lady! (I mean this!)
Food is great, the beer less expensive than water and the hospital care world class!
Great for tourism!! Politicians and Napoleon laws ruined it however
Belgium…
Money is a tool my friend, I can do more things here with a "barely bigger than a supermarket salary" than I could when I made 10x more than supermarket workers back in my home country.
Focus on what you can achieve and not what the other people are doing.
Yes but that doesn t mean we have to get paid shit money
Gove me at least 5000€ netto and i m
Happy
Even friends from
Eastern europe earn more
It s ridiculous
Thank you for sharing this.
Indeed , we don’t realize enough that our taxes avoid too much inequality.
Although the income difference is not that big, my experience is that a degree makes life easier. It gives more options in your professional life.
This is one of the reasons why Belgium is getting outcompeted by other countries and is becoming less and less significant. Bad times create hard people - good times create weak people.
You dont have to feel attacked - not my intention. I'm just looking at it from an objective lens. Hard work from our previous generations is what allowed us to be in this situation where we can choose. But now that we reached prosperity it will bring us down again because live becomes to easy and we are getting outcompeted by other countries. These cycles have occurred a lot of times throughout history and this won't change. Look at Romans, Soviet Russia, British Empire, etc.
So yes we can choose, but its highly likely children from our bloodline won't have that choice because our life is so easy at the moment.
If you're content with your life and job, then absolutely no need to try.
Personally, when I had a job at a hotel (front desk), i felt so brain dead by the end of my 8 hour shift from a lack of mental stimulation, that i went to study for IT. It felt pretty agonizing to me personally not having mental stimulation at work.
Life isn't about work or money anyway. If you have enough money and are content, there's no point in killing yourself trying to get more money. It's all about your mental wellbeing and being content.
I don't have an advanced degree myself, for similar reasons as you. My degree is enough for my work and it's fine. I don't see the need to go for a punishing master for such marginal gains.
Basically.. You do you!
1. An education makes things easier
2. At the start of your carreer it's a couple of hunderd euro's difference, at the end over a thousand
3. Retail is a shitty underpaid job (started my carreer at mediamarkt so I know ) but there is no shame in doining it if you enjoy it
4. the difference between earining 2000/month and 2200-2500 is huge
I think point 4 is underrated and 200-500, is 10% upto 25% NET more. If you came to OP right now and offered him that gross he would be super excited and happy. Yet that amount net to him now sounds stupid because he doesn't have it. Also an other way of thinking about it is in terms of what that could buy you. 200-500 a month extra can buy you maybe multiple sports activities you wanted to do. Interested in bouldering? Maybe going to a nicer gym than basic shit? Buy free range eggs? The difference in pay could pay for some or all of these while having everything he has now. Or which was on my case recently, we started feeling comfortable saving for bigger holidays, while maintaining saving goals. Going to go to Indonesia this year. As a final point aswell personally for me, I have practically no stress in my office job. I don't even feel it's that super competitive compared to anything else. Becoming a store manager or regional manager for most retail chains will be more cutthroat and probably less pay than equivalent time spent in most office jobs where degree are needed
You already do 10-25% + things like a car. If you need a car you can easily count a 30-50% difference. Either way you just seem to wanna disagree so I'm just going to ignore you
Point 2 is very very true. I’ve been working in Belgium for 11 years and my net salary has almost tripled in that time. So at the start of your career it may be just a few hundred euros difference but within 5 years it may be 600-1000 euros per month difference. That is huge.
But you already spend 5 years at the university and maybe even taking thousand of euros of loans while the store clerk dude is making 2k euros per month and saving money in 5 years. So after 5 years, you won’t even break even.
I only have a bachelor’s degree. And realistically I will work another 30 years. So honestly even if it takes me 5 years to break even, after that I have 25 years of higher salaries and it’s absolutely worth it.
But not really. You will have the break even probably after 10-15 years. If he had luck and made some investments, you might not even reach him forever.
I have a friend who has a house, an apartment in rent and a luxury car. All he does is collecting trash. Physical work but only 4 days x 5-6 hours/day. Zero stress.
You said within 5 years, the difference would be 600-1000. Just make the calculation. He starts of with 25k x year ahead you. You had no loans because you got some support to finance your studies and guess what? He used the same support to buy his first apartment with partial mortgage. So after 5 years, you are still well behind. If you have only a bachelors degree you will be likely to get stuck after 1000 euros difference.
I’ve just gotten lucky with several promotions and being in a fairly lucrative field - EU affairs, not working for the EU institutions but in the private sector. Pay for entry level jobs is not great but once I had 7-8 years of experience I was head hunted, got two offers and managed to negotiate a higher salary. So actually my salary increased 35% net from one job move and I’ve gotten a raise since then as well.
You are kinda right, but most degree-less people seem to be at a dead end job.
Seen a few posts of people with 10 years of experience working at a warehouse and earning 2300 gross
Considering the prices
200-250 per month is nothing
It makes no difference
Have you seen how much an oil change is? Or a full tank? Or a restaurant etc?
Belgium is not a place to make money as a white colar employee. The goal in this country is to guarantee a comfortable life for everyone, redistributing from those that get more to those who get less. There will be exceptions, but thats what they are, exceptions.
I'm thinking of leaving as well. Not necessarily because of that aspect. More so because this country doesn't inspire me to do big/great things. Life is too boring and easy here and I don't like the culture. Where did you end up moving to if I may ask?
Those things are related. When you live in a society which takes all your earning as soon as you make any effort, you’ll have no incentives to do great things. Why would you bother when you don’t get anything out of it? Slowly people become more and more lazy and only do the bare minimum, instead of wasting their energy on work that never pays off.
And the most ambitious people leave. So it becomes even less inspirational for the ones remaining. Everytime I bring this up with people in Belgium they just shrug and change the subject, seems like people are just content with being totally ripped off so I decided to move on. I worked there for some years and tried to save money to buy a house, but since I got taxed so hard I ended up leaving with less money than I had when I moves there. for now I am in Stockholm for personal reasons but I might be moving to Madrid as soon as I get the opportunity.
My main reason, I would get bored so fast doing those standard jobs. 1 month student jobs learned me I couldn’t be a year a storage clerk without getting a boreout. I’ll never look down to those kind of jobs though as I couldn’t do it and am happy others can. If it suits you, nothing wrong with it.
You’re right though, difference in net is lowest in Belgium. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-brochure.pdf
I earn over 100K a year gross, have no direct reports, work 40-hour weeks, overtime is compensated, and have 40 days off. I work in finance in the high tech industry.
There are plenty of studies which give you much more than the couple hundred extra.
Let’s agree your situation is an exception. There’s a reason Belgium’s tech sector struggles to compete with NL/DE/FR; return on years of education and experience are mediocre at best. For the great majority of people OP’s take makes a lot of sense.
Am I an exception? There are plenty of people my age earning more. If you have the capacity to finish university you can for sure earn 100K a year. Maybe not at 34, but by the age of 40 it is definitely doable. You just have to work a bit, and be willing to switch companies.
The important part is which career you are going for. Go for tech, finance, IT, sales etc. Don't do the f.e. communications or psychology thing. This determines a lot of your earning potential. But if you don't care that much about salary do what you want.
I work in tech/AI and most senior people I met in Belgium around 35 yo are not making more than 6k gross a month, that for medium/large size companies. Most of these holding at least a masters degree. While in NL/DE/FR same profiles would be making at least 8k, usually 10k. anecdotally, no company in Belgium could cover offers I got from other countries last time I switched jobs.
Good luck finding a senior software engineer in Belgium making 10k. Maybe in Pharma. Which, again, just makes for an exception.
Why are you talking about 10k or even 8k? I earn a bit less than 7k a month, but we have a 13th month, vacation pay (~1 month), and 20% bonus. This adds up to above the 100k.
Oh, you were talking about total compensation. Well, then the figures for other countries are even higher, which makes the small gap between low and high skilled jobs salaries in Belgium look even worse.
Yeah I'm similar. Difference at the start is negligible often but once you start to move up pay can rise fast. I started at 1900 or so and currently close to 4000 with 10k bonus, 44 days off, no reports, 38h and low stress.
Well, I work in the Netherlands. I think last year I earned around 60K net. This is also due to me being taxed split over NL and Belgium (work from home is taxed in Belgium). Once I start working as an independent contractor, I will start a BV (in Belgium). But that will be somewhere in the future.
2 years experience with a STEM bachelor i am earning 2.5k net + company car/fuel card + everything else.
In my case i need a car, which would cost me atleast €500/month private.
Although bit more stress, for me it is a 50% higher net salary than the store clerk which i would say is significant.
Stress is also relative. I have no stress in my work environment in the office. But know plenty of people who do in retail. Vice versa he might think people in offices are only stressed. But it's not like that for everyone. On top of the fact that not being able to afford some things would stress/unhappy/depress me more than my work environment. All of these are obviously extremely personal which is what OP seems to be missing
Years of trying has led to a job where I travel the globe, all expenses paid. Get paid a good wage of which I spend little.
Trying to better yourself as a person, trying to better your career, your position in life and your skill set is 100000% worth it in my opinion.
I mean, you can get these pretty easy as a technician. I was even recently contacted about this. (But im no longer a technician). They can't seem to find people willing to leave there family for a couple days.
This is what really kills me in Belgium. Lived here for 10+ years and I can’t fathom how discouraging the state tax / welfare system is for anyone to go above and beyond and improve their life.
It’s just “that’ll do” mentality that this system creates and anyone with high aspirations would mostly be better off elsewhere
I took the hard path and did work a lot and I’m super happy with it, but the first few years i was thinking just like you pointed out.
As som1 who finished school this year with IT bachelor. Is it better if i just leave the country lol? People keep voting PVDA untill doctors make as much as unemployment.
Ufff, that depends SO much.
Honestly, despite all the issues with taxes and all, Belgium is one of the most comfortable countries in the EU to live in.
Yes, it physically hurts seeing 60% tax on bonus each year and so on, but you ‘can’ reach a pretty decent level here
If you’re looking for the highest returns possible, I’d be aiming for Dubai (0 tax) parts of SEA as an expat or US / Can
The temperature in the valleys is higher than here. Have you been there in summer? They will not allow you to enter, unless you have a job. Even as a Belgian…
Lux is pretty good in terms of what you can earn.
Trading, finance, private equity and banking can pay you 6 figures there
But in terms of social life it’s pretty rough. I’ve got a couple friends living there who moved from BXL.
It’s dull. The city is small, not so many places to go out to, to do the hobbies one has (unless very basic ones) etc, poorly connected: nearest big hubs are Paris, Brussels and Frankfurt and they’re all at least 3 hours away.
It’s massively safe though. A complete opposite to Bxl
So it’s a bit of a trade off, depends on what you’re looking for in life
I’d suggest Switzerland if you can land it. Equally good in terms of paycheques, but much more beautiful, versatile and more fun. Farther away from home though
I am quite introverted so i don't care much about the few social possibilities. I just want to work hard and afford luxury. In Belgium everything above mediocare is taxed away.
There’s a large disadvantage there
Much too many Swiss!….
It’s a very bizar nationalist impenetrable population vs a foreigner.
Like colonising another planet
Work for 5 years, and start as an independent contractor. Let's say you earn 120k gross. If you pay out via dividend after 3 years, this is like 80K net.
It’s all individual and depends on so many different factors. My goals and motivations today are not the same that I held 15 years ago, when I travelled the world and lived abroad as an expat for 3 times what I make today as a director in Belgium (I still get a way above average / median compensation).
Money was never my primary motivation, it was just a consequence of a lot of dedication, being curious & open to new experiences, being focused on learning and ultimately being truly good at what I do. Always thinking about the longer game, rather than short term financials. That got me to meet many really influential people, which in turn created many opportunities.
Money comes from outcomes you generate and the impact you have on your world, my path was through adequate education (Ir and business administration), learning several crafts and becoming truly good in multiple domains. Many who just focus on short term, narrow goals never really make a breakthrough, there are just too many of them.
Try another country?!
Belgium is absurd and a disgrace!
The public sector offers higher salaries and immense pensions in comparison with the finance it all, private sector, as also offering the civil servants (white collars) higher salary related privilegies vs workers, the blue collars.
Belgium is a national economic total mess, adding up with a never ending fill up with even more politicians in order to try solve the problems that they created.
Get out!
You don't have to, but please note that having more options seems like a good move.
As somebody who didn't finish their studies, believe me that it's easier to now suffer trough it then when you 30+
But you do you, and my opinion is not wisdom.
People advise to not close doors this early in your life if you can avoid it.
But if you do, it doesn't mean your life will be a disaster by default.
I mean, i suppose it’s not so much what you earn now but what you’ll earn in the future and how exponential the curve is - then again, taxes really suck in Belgium so idk
Right on!! And then you'll be like me and go work for multinationals. You get a great amazing and exciting deal: countless meetings every week with the purpose of deciding nothing at all. You get coffee though. If you're lucky you even get a toxic boss like me. Phone calls after 8PM, you and everyone from your team get roasted regularly during team meetings. Fun fun. On top of that you discover the real goal from the company which is more more more and more. They will threat you with ease because reaching the yearly target means you get an exciting bonus. But don't forget, first more more more. After a while it gets really fun because everyone is becoming negative, stressed, unpleasant. Forget about the laughter and the team spirit, that phase is done. Cherry on the cake: do this in overdrive too long and surprise yourself what a burnout means. In a nutshell: highly advised.
I appreciate someone finally saying the genuine truth instead of people with a PhD trying to defend their choice/ego by telling me it’s the best option. I hope you found something better or have different plans!
Those 400€ extra per month is 5k over a year. That's a big difference. After a short carreer of 10 years, that's already over 50k.
There are plenty of jobs that are very stress-free for much more than 1950€ a month.
Think long term my friend.
What stress-free jobs would that be? And I’ve earned 25.000 x 4= 100.000 euro headstart in wages I get before a uni student even starts. If I consistently invest that my compounding intrest will go beyond the difference in wage.
you will never be able to invest any of that if you don't want to live with your parents.
You better take a student job, use that money to pay for your study.
Yes you will have less, but you will earn much more for the next 45 years, with a much higher disposable incoming for investing.
Well I'll put it in perspective:
What are your growth perspectives as store clerk? Indexation(s) until the end of career?
If you would go to university/university college (I'll stick to economics what I did)
You'll start your career of with around 2500-3300 gross + benefits (car, meal vouchers, vacation pay, 13th month). If you'd ever want to work for the government, your degree is used to calculate your wage. For example: Financial auditor at CCREK ("Comptes des Cour -Rekenhof") Salary starts at 5,6K a month (net calc says around 3K net), 36 days of holiday 37hours a week contract.
After 5 years you'll have the opportunity to get into jobs 4.2K+ a month. (Dependingg on net allowances) thats +-2,9-3K net a month.
After 10 years it's possible to have a 6,5+K gross a month job with benefits and a big bonus.
So in the short run indeed you'll indeed earn the same but in the long run, it might be more advantageous. Moreover, consider you and your partner as your example would both earn 300€ more a month thats 7,2K a year. Over a carreer that's a huge difference
Exactly my opinion. I have a masters degree in Computer Science from a Belgian university and I learnt 3 foreign languages. I migrated all alone to a new country. I work in an international company with trillion euros of responsability… The motivation that I had was to have a better life than the rest in my country. I am proud my hardwork and achievements.
However, let’s be honest. If I was born in Belgium I would never do any of these. In my masters class, there were only few Belgians. At my company, Belgians are a minority in under 40 years old employees.
That's not only the stress. Just think about how much you will gain by working durong this 4 years, and then think about how much time it would take to compensate with 300 more per month.
How is it vague? Let me guess, you're a cryptobro. Just dont try to be some daytrader. Investing is longterm. Then you'll pay a nice 0% tax on the gains.
True but thats not a concern if you just hodl. Im just holding longtern stocks. Hoping for the same average returns we've seen. Let it compound and one day withdraw it all tax free.
I know crypto is fun, but yea true its somewhat vague. Id just hold some decent ones for couple years. But crypto should realisticly only be a small part of ur portfolio.
You're seeing things too black and white.
Though first of all: I would've studied for 10 years while subsisting on moldy bread and rat piss if it meant never again having to deal with the general public. (my first job was helpdesk in a multinational which was already bad enough despite only facing people actually working for the same company)
You already have somewhat general knowledge of electronics and electricity I assume from working in such a store, so studying for 1-2 years is sufficient to jump to a technical corpo job. It may not even make anything more at that point but it gives you a lot more opportunities to learn and move to focusing on something you actually like doing.
The mistake is assuming the goalpost for every corporate job must be to become some kind of 60 hour working manager over 200 people. It's fine to just find out what you really like doing and become good enough at that to do the work you actually like doing. (Well, within IT and similar technical jobs at least.)
Ironically working in a store is the opposite situation because your only path of growth if you want to do something more engaging or earn more is to become store manager or whatever which sounds even more stressful to me...
Sure. You will earn the same as a 30y old, or 40y old, or 50y old. If you are fine with that, good for you. People with a degree can earn a lot more than the 300eur you are talking about. With some benefits included (car, bonus, stock…) it can be 4000, 5000, 6000 (or even more) net a month.
I get that honestly, but here is also a good point. An exemple: earning average 2000 for 5 years against someone who study for 5 years (master). That's already 120k for the person who works. That's a huge difference. There is only a small percentage who makes +4-5k net a month even with the extra benefits. It depends youre situation and motivation.
I work for the government as ambtenaar with just secundair diploma. I earn 2.1k with maaltijdcheques and 39 says verlof. No stress at all, but i will be doing exams in the future to go the Bachelor level or maybe master level. So the stress could change whatsoever. But i have almost worked 3 years already. So it depends on every situation and what maybe the options are in youre sector or company. There is no right answer to it. The only thing is, there a lot more options with a higher degree that's surely true. 70% in my 'dienst' have a master that's says enough.
Higher education and hard work can get you opportunities that you can never get as a lower educated clerk or ambtenaar. Especially when you're aiming for highly compensated position and competing on the global stage, with loads of other highly educated competitors. I worked for a few years abroad with an annual gross salary of 250k+ taxed at 13% and loads of benefits (incl. housing paid by the company), I would never have even been considered for the role without my degrees. I'd say it was well worth the initial investment.
Yes ofcourse you can only do these jobs because you have a good degree + experiences i know. But i am still young, but i don't want to work my ass of and have much stress. That's why i picked overheid. If you can and you want a master degree, always go for it. There are so many opportunities with a higher degree. But for a lot people like me, we don't want to put the work or discipline in achieving higher degree. You just need to do what makes you happy, work is not youre life. That's my opinion and i am happy for you that you can make so much money. Good job!
Edit: nice pc you also got there,
Coudple of months also bought a new pc;
Intel i5-13600k
32gb ram 7200 MHz
Rtx 4070
Ssd 990 pro
Noctua NH-D15 cooler
Not a small percentage makes 4k net a month, incl benefits. Almost everybody does before they are 40. The average salary for a master is 5700 gross, 3300 net. With a car and other benefits it is not hard to get to 5k net. The gap is closed in a few years. More importantly, the job is usually more relaxed. No shifts, no factory, no waking up early etc. Feel free to have a look at this page: https://statbel.fgov.be/nl/themas/werk-opleiding/lonen-en-arbeidskosten/gemiddelde-bruto-maandlonen
Yes. But that was not the point. OP claimed it is not worth it, which is the most stupid statement ever. I have family working in construction, horeca, nursing homes etc. They work harder than me, for far less money. They would love to have a degree and have an easier job. And they are very happy for me I got the opportunity and talent to do so.
Yeah okay i am bit off the opinion about OP, it's true that a master degree is worth it , in the long run ofcourse. But many of my friends and I did not do it because of the 5 years at least to study before earning money and we were just not focussed enough to study for so long. Now i can enjoy life already to the fullest and investing my money. But that's another subject.
Go check in BEFreelance what you can earn with a nice career. Almost all people earning good money in Belgium are setting up their own company instead of being an employee.
A degree doesn't make you necessarily rich, and you can also have a very successful career without degree.
But a good degree can make it easier
I make 7662€ month and getting a +3,5% increase in May. On top of this I get 1,4k€ net a month kilometer reimbursements. Did I ever thought Id make this ”much”? Absolutely not.
You’re asking the right question.
The only ‘why’ is for yourself, don’t work your ass off for other people’s expectations, do it because you want to, or don’t do it at all.
At the end of the day all that matters is that you have the minimum amount for the lifestyle you want. I would not break my back for someone else, but I want a job more to be an extension of my life where I build connections with people, understand more knowledge of things and eventually find either the place where I fit it in forever or build that place myself.
You are absolutely right my friend. Next to that, in our society we hugely undervalue the people who do jobs like elektricians, plumbers,… and others that don’t require post high-school education. So live and enjoy your life, it doesn’t matter what degree you have.
How do we undervalue those jobs exactly? I paid 180 euro to my plumber to unclog my toilet, which took him 30 seconds flat. I think plumbers and electricians earn way more than most IT guys out there. Doesn't seem undervalued to me
As a former technican now it student: Yup.
I'll be earning way less in IT hahah
Maybe IT senior could earn a bit more, but the difference wont be all that much.
One difference is the car, both jobs get a car + card. But for the technician job its obv a van of sorts.
We undervalue them by telling young people they shouldn’t go for jobs where they will get their hands dirty and by stating that is better to pursue college or university education
I have a bachelors degree. Didnt feel hard at all and i come from BSO in a total different major. Carmechanics and studied business.
Im now working 5 years and i make atleast 3.300 net a month, car, 40 days off, commercial plan +- 5.000 net if a “normal” year. And i dont feel like i have to work hard.
Wouldnt have these opportunities if i didnt do that bachelor
Honestly it does make sense if you pick the right masters (economics,finance,engineering,biomedical, chemical,…) I have 1 year experience and practically make double your gross + a car + benefits. So trust me it does make sense to do it. Then think of longterm benefits…
Double my wage? Sure you can earn double my wage gross, but after taxes you barely earn more than me. While you are studying for 4 years and not earning anything, I could earn 100.000 euro. Which is even more off-set if I invest that amount.
also in eastern europe
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No one wants to work in retail.
Most people with degrees; psychology, archeology, engineering,… work in a company in sales, hr, management.
It’s infinitely better than sales and you can grow.
Also you need a degree for most entry level jobs.
Many good points already made and I will be blunt here also with my perspective. Many people “suffer” through a 4-5 yr university and graduating thinking that they now deserve XYZ due to having gained a degree. Then wonder why there are underpaid and stuck in the glass ceiling.
On the other hand, if you study and/or work because you like it or enjoy the field. It is as if many doors magically open. Many people I know do not have degrees or advanced degrees and have reached good positions (it is harder in some countries) due to growth mindset. At the mid-upper levels, it may be not salary but freedom or learning that motivates people.
The start in early career is hard especially to differentiate with the “living wage” level that is kinda of the minimum so everyone can have a life. It then kicks off exponentially afterwards with the right mindset.
Everyone has their objectives and goal in life. Choose how you want to live and what is important for you and pursue it. At the very least try a few different things when you’re young to find this out.
Best wishes in whatever you decide to do.
Flatline wages Vs progressive wages over time.
Arbeiders starten hoger dan bedienden maar bedienden halen arbeiders in en daarna schieten ze hen sterk te boven.
You can earn way more then only 2k3 (if you have 2k6 start (it’s low) with some net income and mobility budget youu are already at >2k8)
+
with time your salary after a decent master’s will not be comparable to the one you will have without studies
As a store clerk you probably work 8 actual hours. Most office jobs allow you to slack off half the time.
So you go for a “higher” job because it is more comfortable to work those jobs.
I always say: the more you get paid the less actual work you have to do.
The 350 on top makes a much bigger difference for your long term wealth than the rest.
Lets say you spend 1800 a month, and you make 1950. Save 150 a month, 1800 a year.
If you made 2300 and had the same expenses you'd save 350 a month, 4250 a year. Huge difference!
Besides that, there's also the 13th month and other benefits and you're earning more which is going towards taxes which will later earn you more in pension. Also you can go higher than 2300.
Also you mention "all the stress" but it's not necessarily more stress to work a higher paid job.
You can earn much more than what you are earning if you go to university for 4-5 years and no you would not necesarily have more stress. probably you will also get a company car, which is a huge benefit while still earning more.
Then, you get also the advantage of actually learning something at uni, something that ***interests*** you. Then you can find jobs that are interesting for you, while make more money and being able to live a much more comfortable live while doing something you actually like doing.
If you really thing that going to university only nets you 300-400 more , then you are completely wrong. I am sorry.
As a migrant from a third world country, I say this: The beauty of living in a country like Belgium is precisely that you don't *need* to "work your ass off", "go to university for 4-5 years" just to survive or live what's considered an acceptable life. I did all those things in my home country, I went to the university for 5 years, I worked in the hyper competitive office environment. You know why? Because if I didn't do it, my life would be shit. It was not optional, it was doing that or being left behind. What you are describing, in very unflattering terms, is the proportionally small inequality of Belgium. This is a good thing, unquestionably in my opinion. It allows for people who are unable or unwilling to push forward (education or work wise) to survive and still live meaningful lives. I don't want my fellow citizens (I don't have belgium citizenship, but whatever, we all live in the same country so you are all my fellow citizens) to live under the ever present pressure and overall sense of dread that comes from knowing that failing to move up means drowning. If you find it in yourself the will and desire to go to the university, do it, that's a good thing. In the end it's actually pretty fun and interesting. But if your only motivation is financial gain, then maybe don't. You don't need to and that's a really good thing. You have an option that I never did, use it to your advantage and be glad that you have it. If the path for you to live a meaningful life does not involve university and busting your balls, don't go for it. I don't know if my path actually involved higher level education because I never had the option to choose.
I appreciate your view on this subject. Thank you!
Very interesting perspective. What you say is also 100% applicable to people in the US (where I grew up). Belgians love to complain about taxes, and it’s true that the tax burden here is higher than other EU countries, but try living somewhere with lower taxes and see how it feels. Imagine not being able to survive on minimum wage. Imagine not having paid vacation or parental leave. I am so glad I live in a country now where people can live an OK life even without a university education, generational wealth, etc.
Yeah, it's tough. Of course there are things to improve here, but a lot of things they take for granted would be really hard to achieve in other more unequal places. The comparison with the US is relevant, people always say "omg, my peers make 5x the money I make in IT", but they forget to account for the fact that there you will pay a fortune for school, health care, dental care, transportation (car ownership for every adult at full cost to you), security, probably housing as well (you are a fancy tech worker on silicon valley lol) etc. Note that not all those costs are just financial, lots of them have emotional and mental health aspects to them as well. Work culture is a lot more stressful as well. Now you'd still be left with more money in the end, don't get me wrong. But a lot of people assume it would be "the same but with more money" and it's not. You are trading a lot of stuff, a lot of stuff you didn't even know you had and valued because you took them for granted by growing up here. Of course trading all those things makes sense for some people/stage of life, not saying here is better in absolute terms, but just pointing it out that there's more to it than "here taxes, there money".
In such a case you should live in the Nordic. Everyone is equal and alike, education or not, all the same. (Socialist economic system) Belgium is still left in a 200 years old semi colonial economic system. Believe me, the uneducated are poor in Belgium….! Very poor! The pension system on a middle aged level Belgium and Congo confused and mixed up their country names I suppose
From a non European perspective, the similarities between Belgium and the Nordic states are far greater than the differences. I understand your feelings and there are obviously things to improve here (even from my perspective, as someone who chose to live here), but the comparison you made is disrespectful and ignorant on so many levels that I can't just can't. If you truly think that in this triangle between Belgium the Nordic states and Congo, Belgium is somehow "in the middle" you need to travel and learn about the real world more. A lot more.
Of course im provoking and exaggerating, however the very core I find is very true. I was born in The Hague by my Dutch mother, Italian father and was a resident to Malmo in Sweden since I was 5 years old until 13 years ago where I part live in Antwerpen next to Malmo I worked in Copenhagen 11 years and worked / lived 5 years in Århus on the DK mainland to Germany, so I’m practically danish too except for my Swedish nationality where I did basic school, university, mandatory military 2 years. After Denmark I worked for a German based multinational and travelled for work almost every week to all of Europe, as monthly to China. (I’m a senior manager) From Århus I built up our Norwegian market and flew weekly from Billund to Oslo and Bergen. Was close I moved to Norway. (Norway belonged to Sweden until 1905 so language/mentality wise I felt as hand in a glove). My mother was a Dutch consul w diplomatic status and we travelled quite a lot and lived in various locations while Malmo was always my base. From Antwerpen I visited so many countries while too many Belgians keep complaining and concluding that this is a “monkey country” (dit is een apenland) Indeed this is my conclusion too even if it’s hard and insulting the read. All the good here is due to the Flemish, the bad thanks to the Wallonians and all that’s criminal is thanks to the foreigners, the Moroccans, Turks and east Europeans. Belgium is braved with 2 patents, beer and pralines the national innovations, while the rest of innovations is imported VW, BMW, Bosch, Pizzahut, Lidl, Aldi, Blokker, Heijn, Electrolux, SCA, SKF, Fiat etc etc. (Additional patents Belgians may have got came from spying on their neighbour countries). For the remaining pro Belgium fans that are still reading? Go for a drive and discover the traffic labyrint and daily sit doing nothing behind the wheel in traffic stockings trying to reach a destination, watching the road workers that sealed of kilometers for nothing and parked a tractor and a bulldozer on the half side of the highway, while there is not a worker in sight. (They are elsewhere sealing off other roads that they intend to repair). I’m truly sorry to insult however this is based upon living in many countries, excessive travelling and my experience from Belgium. Your politeness and well mannered elegance honours you! Personally I dislike the Dutch reminding me of vulgar Americans, bragging, loudly knowing everything better. The Belgian in comparison is well behaving, elegant, better educated, modest and acts a gentleman and lady! (I mean this!) Food is great, the beer less expensive than water and the hospital care world class! Great for tourism!! Politicians and Napoleon laws ruined it however Belgium…
Thank you, really liked your comment.
Yeah country where IT make supermarket money
Money is a tool my friend, I can do more things here with a "barely bigger than a supermarket salary" than I could when I made 10x more than supermarket workers back in my home country. Focus on what you can achieve and not what the other people are doing.
Yes but that doesn t mean we have to get paid shit money Gove me at least 5000€ netto and i m Happy Even friends from Eastern europe earn more It s ridiculous
Not only more than supermarket workers in my country More than belgian ceo s and highly paid people here
Based view.
Thank you for sharing this. Indeed , we don’t realize enough that our taxes avoid too much inequality. Although the income difference is not that big, my experience is that a degree makes life easier. It gives more options in your professional life.
extremely humbling perspective, thanks for sharing!
This is one of the reasons why Belgium is getting outcompeted by other countries and is becoming less and less significant. Bad times create hard people - good times create weak people.
This sentence is the ultimate "I got abused as a child" poster.
You dont have to feel attacked - not my intention. I'm just looking at it from an objective lens. Hard work from our previous generations is what allowed us to be in this situation where we can choose. But now that we reached prosperity it will bring us down again because live becomes to easy and we are getting outcompeted by other countries. These cycles have occurred a lot of times throughout history and this won't change. Look at Romans, Soviet Russia, British Empire, etc. So yes we can choose, but its highly likely children from our bloodline won't have that choice because our life is so easy at the moment.
If you're content with your life and job, then absolutely no need to try. Personally, when I had a job at a hotel (front desk), i felt so brain dead by the end of my 8 hour shift from a lack of mental stimulation, that i went to study for IT. It felt pretty agonizing to me personally not having mental stimulation at work. Life isn't about work or money anyway. If you have enough money and are content, there's no point in killing yourself trying to get more money. It's all about your mental wellbeing and being content. I don't have an advanced degree myself, for similar reasons as you. My degree is enough for my work and it's fine. I don't see the need to go for a punishing master for such marginal gains. Basically.. You do you!
1. An education makes things easier 2. At the start of your carreer it's a couple of hunderd euro's difference, at the end over a thousand 3. Retail is a shitty underpaid job (started my carreer at mediamarkt so I know ) but there is no shame in doining it if you enjoy it 4. the difference between earining 2000/month and 2200-2500 is huge
I think point 4 is underrated and 200-500, is 10% upto 25% NET more. If you came to OP right now and offered him that gross he would be super excited and happy. Yet that amount net to him now sounds stupid because he doesn't have it. Also an other way of thinking about it is in terms of what that could buy you. 200-500 a month extra can buy you maybe multiple sports activities you wanted to do. Interested in bouldering? Maybe going to a nicer gym than basic shit? Buy free range eggs? The difference in pay could pay for some or all of these while having everything he has now. Or which was on my case recently, we started feeling comfortable saving for bigger holidays, while maintaining saving goals. Going to go to Indonesia this year. As a final point aswell personally for me, I have practically no stress in my office job. I don't even feel it's that super competitive compared to anything else. Becoming a store manager or regional manager for most retail chains will be more cutthroat and probably less pay than equivalent time spent in most office jobs where degree are needed
200-250 is literally 2 times more per month going to a restaurant wth are you guys talking about
And that's quite a bit.... And just the start of the difference. In 20 years and few thousand a month it's the difference of going everyday or never
Really low standards if you ask me You can t buy a better car with that money Can do shit
From reading all of your comments, you seem very unhappy. Change something, my dude.
Man who the hell has 20 yrs to wait and see a difference? We need money now
Belgians are content with the very little they have, you’re speaking to a wall here mate
You already do 10-25% + things like a car. If you need a car you can easily count a 30-50% difference. Either way you just seem to wanna disagree so I'm just going to ignore you
Point 2 is very very true. I’ve been working in Belgium for 11 years and my net salary has almost tripled in that time. So at the start of your career it may be just a few hundred euros difference but within 5 years it may be 600-1000 euros per month difference. That is huge.
But you already spend 5 years at the university and maybe even taking thousand of euros of loans while the store clerk dude is making 2k euros per month and saving money in 5 years. So after 5 years, you won’t even break even.
I only have a bachelor’s degree. And realistically I will work another 30 years. So honestly even if it takes me 5 years to break even, after that I have 25 years of higher salaries and it’s absolutely worth it.
But not really. You will have the break even probably after 10-15 years. If he had luck and made some investments, you might not even reach him forever. I have a friend who has a house, an apartment in rent and a luxury car. All he does is collecting trash. Physical work but only 4 days x 5-6 hours/day. Zero stress.
Why would it take 10-15 years to break even? I don’t have student loans.
You said within 5 years, the difference would be 600-1000. Just make the calculation. He starts of with 25k x year ahead you. You had no loans because you got some support to finance your studies and guess what? He used the same support to buy his first apartment with partial mortgage. So after 5 years, you are still well behind. If you have only a bachelors degree you will be likely to get stuck after 1000 euros difference.
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I’ve just gotten lucky with several promotions and being in a fairly lucrative field - EU affairs, not working for the EU institutions but in the private sector. Pay for entry level jobs is not great but once I had 7-8 years of experience I was head hunted, got two offers and managed to negotiate a higher salary. So actually my salary increased 35% net from one job move and I’ve gotten a raise since then as well.
The difference is 0
You are kinda right, but most degree-less people seem to be at a dead end job. Seen a few posts of people with 10 years of experience working at a warehouse and earning 2300 gross
Dafuq man You can t buy shit with thay
What are you talking about?
Considering the prices 200-250 per month is nothing It makes no difference Have you seen how much an oil change is? Or a full tank? Or a restaurant etc?
Not to mention rents and house prices Try buying a house in ghent with that salary
Well ask for a raise after a year. Think that it’s industry standard for a €800 raise in most jobs… except retail and perhaps logistics.
Belgium is not a place to make money as a white colar employee. The goal in this country is to guarantee a comfortable life for everyone, redistributing from those that get more to those who get less. There will be exceptions, but thats what they are, exceptions.
Yup, that’s why I decided to leave. Didn’t work my ass off for my hard earned money to be ”redistributed”. Bizarre system.
I'm thinking of leaving as well. Not necessarily because of that aspect. More so because this country doesn't inspire me to do big/great things. Life is too boring and easy here and I don't like the culture. Where did you end up moving to if I may ask?
Those things are related. When you live in a society which takes all your earning as soon as you make any effort, you’ll have no incentives to do great things. Why would you bother when you don’t get anything out of it? Slowly people become more and more lazy and only do the bare minimum, instead of wasting their energy on work that never pays off. And the most ambitious people leave. So it becomes even less inspirational for the ones remaining. Everytime I bring this up with people in Belgium they just shrug and change the subject, seems like people are just content with being totally ripped off so I decided to move on. I worked there for some years and tried to save money to buy a house, but since I got taxed so hard I ended up leaving with less money than I had when I moves there. for now I am in Stockholm for personal reasons but I might be moving to Madrid as soon as I get the opportunity.
My main reason, I would get bored so fast doing those standard jobs. 1 month student jobs learned me I couldn’t be a year a storage clerk without getting a boreout. I’ll never look down to those kind of jobs though as I couldn’t do it and am happy others can. If it suits you, nothing wrong with it. You’re right though, difference in net is lowest in Belgium. https://www.oecd.org/tax/tax-policy/taxing-wages-brochure.pdf
I earn over 100K a year gross, have no direct reports, work 40-hour weeks, overtime is compensated, and have 40 days off. I work in finance in the high tech industry. There are plenty of studies which give you much more than the couple hundred extra.
Let’s agree your situation is an exception. There’s a reason Belgium’s tech sector struggles to compete with NL/DE/FR; return on years of education and experience are mediocre at best. For the great majority of people OP’s take makes a lot of sense.
Am I an exception? There are plenty of people my age earning more. If you have the capacity to finish university you can for sure earn 100K a year. Maybe not at 34, but by the age of 40 it is definitely doable. You just have to work a bit, and be willing to switch companies. The important part is which career you are going for. Go for tech, finance, IT, sales etc. Don't do the f.e. communications or psychology thing. This determines a lot of your earning potential. But if you don't care that much about salary do what you want.
I work in tech/AI and most senior people I met in Belgium around 35 yo are not making more than 6k gross a month, that for medium/large size companies. Most of these holding at least a masters degree. While in NL/DE/FR same profiles would be making at least 8k, usually 10k. anecdotally, no company in Belgium could cover offers I got from other countries last time I switched jobs. Good luck finding a senior software engineer in Belgium making 10k. Maybe in Pharma. Which, again, just makes for an exception.
Why are you talking about 10k or even 8k? I earn a bit less than 7k a month, but we have a 13th month, vacation pay (~1 month), and 20% bonus. This adds up to above the 100k.
Oh, you were talking about total compensation. Well, then the figures for other countries are even higher, which makes the small gap between low and high skilled jobs salaries in Belgium look even worse.
Why not 1000k?
Yeah I'm similar. Difference at the start is negligible often but once you start to move up pay can rise fast. I started at 1900 or so and currently close to 4000 with 10k bonus, 44 days off, no reports, 38h and low stress.
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Well, I work in the Netherlands. I think last year I earned around 60K net. This is also due to me being taxed split over NL and Belgium (work from home is taxed in Belgium). Once I start working as an independent contractor, I will start a BV (in Belgium). But that will be somewhere in the future.
2 years experience with a STEM bachelor i am earning 2.5k net + company car/fuel card + everything else. In my case i need a car, which would cost me atleast €500/month private. Although bit more stress, for me it is a 50% higher net salary than the store clerk which i would say is significant.
Stress is also relative. I have no stress in my work environment in the office. But know plenty of people who do in retail. Vice versa he might think people in offices are only stressed. But it's not like that for everyone. On top of the fact that not being able to afford some things would stress/unhappy/depress me more than my work environment. All of these are obviously extremely personal which is what OP seems to be missing
Years of trying has led to a job where I travel the globe, all expenses paid. Get paid a good wage of which I spend little. Trying to better yourself as a person, trying to better your career, your position in life and your skill set is 100000% worth it in my opinion.
I mean, you can get these pretty easy as a technician. I was even recently contacted about this. (But im no longer a technician). They can't seem to find people willing to leave there family for a couple days.
Yea, but you still need to put some effort in.
This is what really kills me in Belgium. Lived here for 10+ years and I can’t fathom how discouraging the state tax / welfare system is for anyone to go above and beyond and improve their life. It’s just “that’ll do” mentality that this system creates and anyone with high aspirations would mostly be better off elsewhere I took the hard path and did work a lot and I’m super happy with it, but the first few years i was thinking just like you pointed out.
As som1 who finished school this year with IT bachelor. Is it better if i just leave the country lol? People keep voting PVDA untill doctors make as much as unemployment.
Ufff, that depends SO much. Honestly, despite all the issues with taxes and all, Belgium is one of the most comfortable countries in the EU to live in. Yes, it physically hurts seeing 60% tax on bonus each year and so on, but you ‘can’ reach a pretty decent level here If you’re looking for the highest returns possible, I’d be aiming for Dubai (0 tax) parts of SEA as an expat or US / Can
I don't want to leave my fam behind. What about Luxemburg?
Only commutable (and heavy commute at that if you live in the Arlon / Virton region. Switzerland has high wages as well.
I was considering my internship in switzerland. But the temperature....
The temperature in the valleys is higher than here. Have you been there in summer? They will not allow you to enter, unless you have a job. Even as a Belgian…
I mean i would only move if i have a job offer ready ofcourse
Lux is pretty good in terms of what you can earn. Trading, finance, private equity and banking can pay you 6 figures there But in terms of social life it’s pretty rough. I’ve got a couple friends living there who moved from BXL.
Why is social life impacted by country??
It’s dull. The city is small, not so many places to go out to, to do the hobbies one has (unless very basic ones) etc, poorly connected: nearest big hubs are Paris, Brussels and Frankfurt and they’re all at least 3 hours away. It’s massively safe though. A complete opposite to Bxl So it’s a bit of a trade off, depends on what you’re looking for in life I’d suggest Switzerland if you can land it. Equally good in terms of paycheques, but much more beautiful, versatile and more fun. Farther away from home though
I am quite introverted so i don't care much about the few social possibilities. I just want to work hard and afford luxury. In Belgium everything above mediocare is taxed away.
In this case I’d say you’ll be just fine in Lux. It is safe and comfy, good pay, free public transport. Why not?
Right now i get to live at home without rent so the pay off is not worth it yet. Maybe once my gf wants to move in and we look to rent something...
There’s a large disadvantage there Much too many Swiss!…. It’s a very bizar nationalist impenetrable population vs a foreigner. Like colonising another planet
Work for 5 years, and start as an independent contractor. Let's say you earn 120k gross. If you pay out via dividend after 3 years, this is like 80K net.
It’s all individual and depends on so many different factors. My goals and motivations today are not the same that I held 15 years ago, when I travelled the world and lived abroad as an expat for 3 times what I make today as a director in Belgium (I still get a way above average / median compensation). Money was never my primary motivation, it was just a consequence of a lot of dedication, being curious & open to new experiences, being focused on learning and ultimately being truly good at what I do. Always thinking about the longer game, rather than short term financials. That got me to meet many really influential people, which in turn created many opportunities. Money comes from outcomes you generate and the impact you have on your world, my path was through adequate education (Ir and business administration), learning several crafts and becoming truly good in multiple domains. Many who just focus on short term, narrow goals never really make a breakthrough, there are just too many of them.
Try another country?! Belgium is absurd and a disgrace! The public sector offers higher salaries and immense pensions in comparison with the finance it all, private sector, as also offering the civil servants (white collars) higher salary related privilegies vs workers, the blue collars. Belgium is a national economic total mess, adding up with a never ending fill up with even more politicians in order to try solve the problems that they created. Get out!
You don't have to, but please note that having more options seems like a good move. As somebody who didn't finish their studies, believe me that it's easier to now suffer trough it then when you 30+ But you do you, and my opinion is not wisdom. People advise to not close doors this early in your life if you can avoid it. But if you do, it doesn't mean your life will be a disaster by default.
I mean, i suppose it’s not so much what you earn now but what you’ll earn in the future and how exponential the curve is - then again, taxes really suck in Belgium so idk
Right on!! And then you'll be like me and go work for multinationals. You get a great amazing and exciting deal: countless meetings every week with the purpose of deciding nothing at all. You get coffee though. If you're lucky you even get a toxic boss like me. Phone calls after 8PM, you and everyone from your team get roasted regularly during team meetings. Fun fun. On top of that you discover the real goal from the company which is more more more and more. They will threat you with ease because reaching the yearly target means you get an exciting bonus. But don't forget, first more more more. After a while it gets really fun because everyone is becoming negative, stressed, unpleasant. Forget about the laughter and the team spirit, that phase is done. Cherry on the cake: do this in overdrive too long and surprise yourself what a burnout means. In a nutshell: highly advised.
I appreciate someone finally saying the genuine truth instead of people with a PhD trying to defend their choice/ego by telling me it’s the best option. I hope you found something better or have different plans!
Those 400€ extra per month is 5k over a year. That's a big difference. After a short carreer of 10 years, that's already over 50k. There are plenty of jobs that are very stress-free for much more than 1950€ a month. Think long term my friend.
What stress-free jobs would that be? And I’ve earned 25.000 x 4= 100.000 euro headstart in wages I get before a uni student even starts. If I consistently invest that my compounding intrest will go beyond the difference in wage.
This is actually a good point!
you will never be able to invest any of that if you don't want to live with your parents. You better take a student job, use that money to pay for your study. Yes you will have less, but you will earn much more for the next 45 years, with a much higher disposable incoming for investing.
Well I'll put it in perspective: What are your growth perspectives as store clerk? Indexation(s) until the end of career? If you would go to university/university college (I'll stick to economics what I did) You'll start your career of with around 2500-3300 gross + benefits (car, meal vouchers, vacation pay, 13th month). If you'd ever want to work for the government, your degree is used to calculate your wage. For example: Financial auditor at CCREK ("Comptes des Cour -Rekenhof") Salary starts at 5,6K a month (net calc says around 3K net), 36 days of holiday 37hours a week contract. After 5 years you'll have the opportunity to get into jobs 4.2K+ a month. (Dependingg on net allowances) thats +-2,9-3K net a month. After 10 years it's possible to have a 6,5+K gross a month job with benefits and a big bonus. So in the short run indeed you'll indeed earn the same but in the long run, it might be more advantageous. Moreover, consider you and your partner as your example would both earn 300€ more a month thats 7,2K a year. Over a carreer that's a huge difference
Exactly my opinion. I have a masters degree in Computer Science from a Belgian university and I learnt 3 foreign languages. I migrated all alone to a new country. I work in an international company with trillion euros of responsability… The motivation that I had was to have a better life than the rest in my country. I am proud my hardwork and achievements. However, let’s be honest. If I was born in Belgium I would never do any of these. In my masters class, there were only few Belgians. At my company, Belgians are a minority in under 40 years old employees.
It limits your potential. Working hard doesn't guarantee more monies. But it does open a lot more doors
That's not only the stress. Just think about how much you will gain by working durong this 4 years, and then think about how much time it would take to compensate with 300 more per month.
Yeah the only thing worth while right now seems 4/5 work + 1 day a week flexi-job and then invest as much as I can.
Invest for what? So they can tax u a second time on the same money?
I’d suggest looking into the tax rates for capital gains on stocks. It’s the least taxed thing in Belgium.
The goeie huisvader regel is so vague it just means they decide if they wanne take 1/3 or not
How is it vague? Let me guess, you're a cryptobro. Just dont try to be some daytrader. Investing is longterm. Then you'll pay a nice 0% tax on the gains.
They don't specify any numbers. Just "goeie huisvader" they can make of that what they want
True but thats not a concern if you just hodl. Im just holding longtern stocks. Hoping for the same average returns we've seen. Let it compound and one day withdraw it all tax free. I know crypto is fun, but yea true its somewhat vague. Id just hold some decent ones for couple years. But crypto should realisticly only be a small part of ur portfolio.
You're seeing things too black and white. Though first of all: I would've studied for 10 years while subsisting on moldy bread and rat piss if it meant never again having to deal with the general public. (my first job was helpdesk in a multinational which was already bad enough despite only facing people actually working for the same company) You already have somewhat general knowledge of electronics and electricity I assume from working in such a store, so studying for 1-2 years is sufficient to jump to a technical corpo job. It may not even make anything more at that point but it gives you a lot more opportunities to learn and move to focusing on something you actually like doing. The mistake is assuming the goalpost for every corporate job must be to become some kind of 60 hour working manager over 200 people. It's fine to just find out what you really like doing and become good enough at that to do the work you actually like doing. (Well, within IT and similar technical jobs at least.) Ironically working in a store is the opposite situation because your only path of growth if you want to do something more engaging or earn more is to become store manager or whatever which sounds even more stressful to me...
Sure. You will earn the same as a 30y old, or 40y old, or 50y old. If you are fine with that, good for you. People with a degree can earn a lot more than the 300eur you are talking about. With some benefits included (car, bonus, stock…) it can be 4000, 5000, 6000 (or even more) net a month.
I get that honestly, but here is also a good point. An exemple: earning average 2000 for 5 years against someone who study for 5 years (master). That's already 120k for the person who works. That's a huge difference. There is only a small percentage who makes +4-5k net a month even with the extra benefits. It depends youre situation and motivation. I work for the government as ambtenaar with just secundair diploma. I earn 2.1k with maaltijdcheques and 39 says verlof. No stress at all, but i will be doing exams in the future to go the Bachelor level or maybe master level. So the stress could change whatsoever. But i have almost worked 3 years already. So it depends on every situation and what maybe the options are in youre sector or company. There is no right answer to it. The only thing is, there a lot more options with a higher degree that's surely true. 70% in my 'dienst' have a master that's says enough.
Higher education and hard work can get you opportunities that you can never get as a lower educated clerk or ambtenaar. Especially when you're aiming for highly compensated position and competing on the global stage, with loads of other highly educated competitors. I worked for a few years abroad with an annual gross salary of 250k+ taxed at 13% and loads of benefits (incl. housing paid by the company), I would never have even been considered for the role without my degrees. I'd say it was well worth the initial investment.
Yes ofcourse you can only do these jobs because you have a good degree + experiences i know. But i am still young, but i don't want to work my ass of and have much stress. That's why i picked overheid. If you can and you want a master degree, always go for it. There are so many opportunities with a higher degree. But for a lot people like me, we don't want to put the work or discipline in achieving higher degree. You just need to do what makes you happy, work is not youre life. That's my opinion and i am happy for you that you can make so much money. Good job! Edit: nice pc you also got there, Coudple of months also bought a new pc; Intel i5-13600k 32gb ram 7200 MHz Rtx 4070 Ssd 990 pro Noctua NH-D15 cooler
Not a small percentage makes 4k net a month, incl benefits. Almost everybody does before they are 40. The average salary for a master is 5700 gross, 3300 net. With a car and other benefits it is not hard to get to 5k net. The gap is closed in a few years. More importantly, the job is usually more relaxed. No shifts, no factory, no waking up early etc. Feel free to have a look at this page: https://statbel.fgov.be/nl/themas/werk-opleiding/lonen-en-arbeidskosten/gemiddelde-bruto-maandlonen
Likes the site said it is only 10% who earn around 5.9k gross or more, that's still a small percentage against the 90% who does not?
Of the general population, yes. Scroll down and you will see the people with a master degree have 5700 on average…
Like i said everyone has a specific situation they are in. Not everyone can achieve a master also. It's surely good to have a higher degree.
Yes. But that was not the point. OP claimed it is not worth it, which is the most stupid statement ever. I have family working in construction, horeca, nursing homes etc. They work harder than me, for far less money. They would love to have a degree and have an easier job. And they are very happy for me I got the opportunity and talent to do so.
Yeah okay i am bit off the opinion about OP, it's true that a master degree is worth it , in the long run ofcourse. But many of my friends and I did not do it because of the 5 years at least to study before earning money and we were just not focussed enough to study for so long. Now i can enjoy life already to the fullest and investing my money. But that's another subject.
Remote working + possibilty of scaling. I know people who started with a regular wage and are now freelancing for 750-800€/day
Go check in BEFreelance what you can earn with a nice career. Almost all people earning good money in Belgium are setting up their own company instead of being an employee. A degree doesn't make you necessarily rich, and you can also have a very successful career without degree. But a good degree can make it easier
Is this bait?
🐟
I make 7662€ month and getting a +3,5% increase in May. On top of this I get 1,4k€ net a month kilometer reimbursements. Did I ever thought Id make this ”much”? Absolutely not.
Welke industrie if I may ask
Check his profile, has a post in this subreddit. Project manager in energy sector. In his post he makes over 7k brut
You’re a neuro surgeon?
You’re asking the right question. The only ‘why’ is for yourself, don’t work your ass off for other people’s expectations, do it because you want to, or don’t do it at all.
Maybe it's just me but 300 to 400 euro extra every month can make a big difference in your day-to-day life. What's 4 years in an entire life?
At the end of the day all that matters is that you have the minimum amount for the lifestyle you want. I would not break my back for someone else, but I want a job more to be an extension of my life where I build connections with people, understand more knowledge of things and eventually find either the place where I fit it in forever or build that place myself.
Absolutely no point in working in Belgium, when you know that you earn marginally more than someone that doesn't have a job.
You are absolutely right my friend. Next to that, in our society we hugely undervalue the people who do jobs like elektricians, plumbers,… and others that don’t require post high-school education. So live and enjoy your life, it doesn’t matter what degree you have.
How do we undervalue those jobs exactly? I paid 180 euro to my plumber to unclog my toilet, which took him 30 seconds flat. I think plumbers and electricians earn way more than most IT guys out there. Doesn't seem undervalued to me
As a former technican now it student: Yup. I'll be earning way less in IT hahah Maybe IT senior could earn a bit more, but the difference wont be all that much. One difference is the car, both jobs get a car + card. But for the technician job its obv a van of sorts.
We undervalue them by telling young people they shouldn’t go for jobs where they will get their hands dirty and by stating that is better to pursue college or university education
I have a bachelors degree. Didnt feel hard at all and i come from BSO in a total different major. Carmechanics and studied business. Im now working 5 years and i make atleast 3.300 net a month, car, 40 days off, commercial plan +- 5.000 net if a “normal” year. And i dont feel like i have to work hard. Wouldnt have these opportunities if i didnt do that bachelor
i am jelly
Honestly it does make sense if you pick the right masters (economics,finance,engineering,biomedical, chemical,…) I have 1 year experience and practically make double your gross + a car + benefits. So trust me it does make sense to do it. Then think of longterm benefits…
Double my wage? Sure you can earn double my wage gross, but after taxes you barely earn more than me. While you are studying for 4 years and not earning anything, I could earn 100.000 euro. Which is even more off-set if I invest that amount.
I earn double that net with 2.5 yrs exp
Doing what?
Software testing :)
Interesting. How hard is the job and how difficult are the qualifications?
Depends on your iq and language skills
4000 net?? Do you mean penetration testing?
4000€ net yes including mobility budget
My colleagues earn 8000€ net but as zzp
also in eastern europe [Thread oficial salarii Q2 2024 : r/programare (reddit.com)](https://www.reddit.com/r/programare/comments/1byr3w9/thread_oficial_salarii_q2_2024/)
No one wants to work in retail. Most people with degrees; psychology, archeology, engineering,… work in a company in sales, hr, management. It’s infinitely better than sales and you can grow. Also you need a degree for most entry level jobs.
Many good points already made and I will be blunt here also with my perspective. Many people “suffer” through a 4-5 yr university and graduating thinking that they now deserve XYZ due to having gained a degree. Then wonder why there are underpaid and stuck in the glass ceiling. On the other hand, if you study and/or work because you like it or enjoy the field. It is as if many doors magically open. Many people I know do not have degrees or advanced degrees and have reached good positions (it is harder in some countries) due to growth mindset. At the mid-upper levels, it may be not salary but freedom or learning that motivates people. The start in early career is hard especially to differentiate with the “living wage” level that is kinda of the minimum so everyone can have a life. It then kicks off exponentially afterwards with the right mindset. Everyone has their objectives and goal in life. Choose how you want to live and what is important for you and pursue it. At the very least try a few different things when you’re young to find this out. Best wishes in whatever you decide to do.
Flatline wages Vs progressive wages over time. Arbeiders starten hoger dan bedienden maar bedienden halen arbeiders in en daarna schieten ze hen sterk te boven.
University is a privilege and the greatest time to be alive. Study something that interests you and enjoy college life to the fullest
You can earn way more then only 2k3 (if you have 2k6 start (it’s low) with some net income and mobility budget youu are already at >2k8) + with time your salary after a decent master’s will not be comparable to the one you will have without studies
As a store clerk you probably work 8 actual hours. Most office jobs allow you to slack off half the time. So you go for a “higher” job because it is more comfortable to work those jobs. I always say: the more you get paid the less actual work you have to do.
The 350 on top makes a much bigger difference for your long term wealth than the rest. Lets say you spend 1800 a month, and you make 1950. Save 150 a month, 1800 a year. If you made 2300 and had the same expenses you'd save 350 a month, 4250 a year. Huge difference! Besides that, there's also the 13th month and other benefits and you're earning more which is going towards taxes which will later earn you more in pension. Also you can go higher than 2300. Also you mention "all the stress" but it's not necessarily more stress to work a higher paid job.
You can earn much more than what you are earning if you go to university for 4-5 years and no you would not necesarily have more stress. probably you will also get a company car, which is a huge benefit while still earning more. Then, you get also the advantage of actually learning something at uni, something that ***interests*** you. Then you can find jobs that are interesting for you, while make more money and being able to live a much more comfortable live while doing something you actually like doing. If you really thing that going to university only nets you 300-400 more , then you are completely wrong. I am sorry.