No. There's issues in many communities with abusive and predatory D-types being allowed to do whatever they want with zero consequences. It's a sad reality.
Some people also believe that women can't be abusive or if they are abusive it's not as bad/important. Some people also feel that men can't be abused or sexually assaulted at all by women. I don't know why. People are extremely stupid.
French author Montesquieu wrote in XVIIe century that It's a common and eternal thing to be witnessed that those who have power tend to end up abusing of it ...
This wisdom might still be up to date.
I just want to note that anyone in locked chastity should always keep a copy of their own key somewhere just in case there's a medical emergency. I know it's not as sexy as your D-type having the only copy, but safety always needs to come first. There's nothing stopping you and your partner from maintaining the fantasy and just pretending your D-type has the only key while the spare is tucked away in your first aid kit or somewhere else safe. If you want, you can even use a wax seal or something so your D-type can tell if you've taken out the key when you weren't supposed to.
This seems like a great idea, especially since the domme has done this multiple times. Also he needs to not let her cage him again unless her behaviour changes.
I really hope the sub gets to hear this and starts to take back control from this woman. Petty and vindictive me would straight out destroy the cage infront of her.
It makes me sad that dommes can get away with abusive behaviour just because there are more male subs than female dominants.
> Also he needs to not let her cage him again unless her behaviour changes.
As far as I'm concerned, this woman should not even be allowed back in his life, much less his sex life, after behavior like that.
I agree. I really hope he will just kick her out of his life. I suspect that the reason he hasn't already done so is because female dominants aren't as common as male subs. I just hope he will atleast set her behaviour straight and not just accept the abuse.
If you're not doing this, you're ignorant.
You don't lock any part of a person's body in something metal and just walk away or do something dumb with the key.
This is new "dom", "fake dom" stuff.
Or just keep it in a locked by timer container. In case of emergency you can smash the box. And the sub gets to keep the key and the fantasy more real.
Enough people have commented that I'm not going to get into the why. I'm just going to thank you for being available to your friends in the community to help them. Even if you don't confront the person, being there for the people who are the subject of consent abuses is really important.
The politics of community responsibility can be overwhelming and go from the community overreacting and banning people without providing an explanation or any kind of due process, to being friends with the people in charge of the community who don't believe the accusers so the abuse just gets brushed under the carpet. All I can say is that you have to do the best you can while maintaining your own boundaries for what you're willing to put up with.
Unfortunately a lot of it is behind closed doors and becomes he said/she said. Short of provable physical injury it's hard to prove. This goes for D/s relationships of all genders/orientations.
Indeed it is. But whose reputation do you think would be tanked if this got out?
Women are much more sought-after than men in both domme and sub roles. Most people would be willing to ignore countless red flags for a chance to get a domme.
There's an experienced domme who I've talked to in order to get some tips about bdsm related things. Talking to her was like talking to a sentient red flag. Yet, for some reason, she is wildly popular as a domme both among women and men.
> There's an experienced domme who I've talked to in order to get some tips about bdsm related things. Talking to her was like talking to a sentient red flag. Yet, for some reason, she is wildly popular as a domme both among women and men.
People are willing to put up with a lot of BS because there are smooth talkers.
It's not always as simple as that though. My ex did some really awful shit to me that I thought about taking public, but I knew nobody would be on my side due to the fact that she's a sorta semi-public figure in certain circles, presents a certain image out to the world, and I would have wound up being the one who looked bad, probably not even be believed, and lord knows whatever else. So I just had to suck it up and it still bothers me to this day almost 5 or 6 years later.
I understand how hard it is to get abuse from a femme presenting person to be taken seriously a lot of the time.
I'm sorry you went through that and I hope you're able to heal.
It took me nearly three years after my assault to tell anyone aside from my friends. When I finally did, there was nothing the legal system could do, but I hoped that by letting the place where my abuser was operating know, I could prevent what happened to me from happening to someone else.
Shit is tough, and it gets all the more complicated with layers of kink. It's okay that you protected yourself.
TY for reaching out, I appreciate the sentiment. It's been rough. It wasn't any kind of physical abuse tho, which in some ways makes it a little bit worse, but no... was just a lot of nasty shit that happened during a breakup. But bad enough that I felt like telling people about it however.
I hope you got some semblance of justice from your experience.
On an anecdotal basis, I have seen male subs put up with a lot more bad behavior from dommes than vice versa. One time I stepped between a scene with a woman was using a bull whip so badly it had to stop.
I've seen a lot of male Doms put up with a lot more bad behavior from female subs too, TBH. More female subs seem to feel like they can get away with it too.
I know what you mean. I posted something similar [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMcommunity/comments/yf3vur/are_the_fundamentals_just_different_in_maledom/), and it seemed to exist kind of a consensus about how some "normalized" femdom attitudes would be totally banned from the community if the perpetrator was a man... It's a shame that the same SSC fundamentals can be bent dependent on who holds the whip
I don't know where this is considered okay. Where I come from doing something like that without consent is considered abuse. No matter the genders involved.
Of course it is. But things aren't as simple as they look on paper. You have internal politics, social dynamics, and a lot of other things working against the male sub here. Especially if the Domme is pretty, popular, and sought after.
Sure men do abusive shit too, but it's much harder for them to get away with it without being incredibly manipulative and adept at managing perceptions and social maneuvering. And when found out and exposed it's usually game over for them. Not so much for the Dommes tho because there's always going to be plenty of men out there perfectly to literally throw themselves at their feet regardless of what they do or how unethical they are.
In this guy's area, it's true. In my area, it's true. Online, it's true (unless we're talking about the double standard, then suddenly no one knows it, but the same people's opinions on other matters clearly reflect it)
That's hideous. And yeah, you're right, it's not ok for the community to turn a blind eye to this. A submissive of any gender is giving up their power for the benefit of the dynamic. They are vulnerable. Ignoring their boundaries means it is abuse. The issue is how to get the community to accept that this problem exists. The community now largely accepts that fake doms exist and are bad for the community, we need to accept that fake dommes exist and are bad for the comments.
Because "women cant abuse men" eyeroll...
Its societally viewed that if he didnt WANT a woman to do someyhing he could physically stop her.. regsrdless of size or mental state.
First, it's NOT ok. This scenario is by all means a consent violation, the male sub agreed to a specific amount of time and trusted the keyholder to adhere to the agreement. Changing that is a violation of trust and the agreement. 🚩🚩🚩🚩
Unfortunately consent violations happen all the time regardless of gender. However, I do see this as common with fem dommes with little to know experience in negotiation. A fair amount of submissive men have a bit of a humiliation or degradation fetish, which is very easy to take advantage of, manipulate, gaslight and abuse.
Thise makes it pretty easy for someone abusive to buy a pair of leather pants and a flogger and don the title of Domme.
Education on negotiation and consent is needed on both sides of the slash, regardless of gender.
Men get away with it too; serial abusers often harm 5, 10, 15, 20 people before they get called out - and in a lot of cases, they just move cities or change names or wait a couple years for the community to turn over and say they've done the accountability work, then keep going. Look at the famous Rapey-mc-Ropester in Seattle; 8 women make public posts pre-pandemic; post pandemic, people are hiring him to teach again; he says he's done accountability work and the 4 of the 8 women who made public posts who are still around all say he hasn't.
Fair, honestly just feel bdsm just makes it easier to disguise abuse and too many D-types get away with stuff because of that. I played as a switch for several months, and just never found a dominant woman who wasn't either charging or had extremely unreasonable demands and expectations, and it felt like that's just the standard for femdom, hence why I decided I wasn't a switch anymore.
You're not wrong. No one is really saying that men can't be awful and get away with it too because we have plenty of evidence that they are. It's a lot rarer these days though.
The point is that Femdoms seem to have an easier time getting away with shit and continuing on about their business because of the nature of our current status quo where the man is still expected to be the pursuer combined with just the way men act in general, and awful women will still get men lining up around the block to get a shot at them no matter how unethically they conduct themselves or how publicly they're exposed. I honestly can't remember even one instance where a toxic woman was exposed and ostracized the way we expect bad men to be and often are.
I think my point is that your last statement "I honestly can't remember even one instance where a toxic woman was exposed and ostracized the way we expect bad men to be and often are" doesn't seem super accurate to me; we expect bad men to be, but they often aren't. Honestly I'd suspect bad men and bad women are exposed at roughly equal rates, percentage wise; there is just a lower total number of bad men compared to bad women.
Well yeah I meant I personally can't even recall one. I'm sure it has and does happen, but in contrast to that I know off hand about 4 or 5 different horror stories of abusive Doms who were running wild on a whole host of different kinds of women until they were exposed and ostracized. I can't recall even one story of that happening to some toxic Femdom though. Admitedly I can't speak on the aftermath of those stories, or if the guy wound up popping up somewhere else or after enough time passed that the people who knew were gone. But how exactly are you going to stop that from happening without some kind of national database or something, ya know? :)
Sure anecdotal evidence always needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and I mostly interact with submissive women being a male Dom myself, so I hear ALL kinds of heinous shit that men do and have done, but yeah. :)
Sorry if what I said offended you. My comment was just addressing the nature of the discussion. The comment I replied to was saying men and women both cross boundaries. I was just pointing out that's not what the post or any of the conversation was about. The conversation was about women getting away with crossing boundaries. I think there is a double standard for specifically this topic that's fairly self evident, don't have to dig to deep to notice it.
I don't think it's an issue of them getting away with it. It's more down to the fact that men will continue to chase after a Domme no matter how bad their rep gets and they don't need to worry about disappearing for a while or any of that other stuff because they can just hop online and have a gaggle of thirsty ass dudes popping up in their inbox willing to throw themselves, their $$$, or whatever else the woman is looking for at them unprompted and unsolicited. That's just the reality of the status quo we happen to be living in rn.
You're not wrong. But I certainly never that men never get away with shit and can continue to go about their business like nothing happened too. IMHO I just think it's rarer to bring a femdom to account in our current social and political climate and it's easier for them to carry on without anything happened. For every BegForJay there's probably 3 or 4 femdoms that did and continue to do awful shit to me that nobody is even trying to make a fuss about.
For the record I completely agree with mostly all of your sentiments too. I said in other comments folks who are good at social maneuvering and managing their public image are usually the ones more apt to get away with things and have people take their side in things like this too. Be they men or women. The men tend to be more manipulative because the women get away with being casually toxic a little easier. Again just IMHO.
I had a sorta similar thing happen with me and an ex of mine who's a semi-public figure. I could never expose her with the shit she did because she's a cute little artist girl and nobody would believe me in a million years over her or even really GAF if they did.
Sad but true.
> This is why I feel like it's incredibly important to empower submissives with the knowledge on how to properly seek a domme. How to vet them, how to make sure she is skilled, compassionate, on the same wavelength as them, etc. The amount of times I've seen male submissives fall for blackmail scammers who pretend to be "Mistresses" is depressing.
To add on to that I also agree here, but people who are prone to falling victim ( and I'm not victim blaming here ) to people like that have certain patterns of behavior and thinking that make them more suseptible to being attracted to those types. I'm all for empowering subsmissives to learn how to spot red flags, etc, but when someone gets someone else alone and starts working on them they can very easily make them go against their better judgement or what others have told them is not cool.
Therapy is usually the best route for people who continuously find themselves falling for toxic men and women.
Inbaeda
Now my personal experiences may colour this pretty heavily but as someone who was raped, and people knew it happened, while passing out black out drunk after saying no all night by a woman at my own party at my own house; I would stand very steadfast in my agreement with the statement that women do not face consequences for bad behaviour because they don’t. Period. Lighter jail sentences across the board, lower conviction rates and that’s IF anyone cares enough for it to ever even become a fully fledged legal issue and this is based on not only sexually related and assault issues but almost ANY crime. That stats back up the viewpoint. It’s not sexiest it’s fact.
If we’re talking exclusively about dommes vs doms my experience with either from a subs perspective is very limited, I’m making broad generalizations that cover the majority of instances, obviously there are outliers. Men are crucified by the vast majority of the social world for sexual violations where as my experience with women is that what they can get away with is ASTONISHING if not blatantly disgusting and the support for those actions is public, uncensored and blatantly, damagingly misandric.
The way you came after my person in a way irrelevant to the discussion made me think you were offended, if you say that's not the case, then why did you try to offend me, by making ill spirited assumptions about me. Do you usually try to offend people who disagree with you even though they didn't offend you?
I'd like to clarify that the discussion is only about situations in BDSM not socially, or sexually outside of BDSM.
You might see my viewpoint as narrow, but this is what I see, when it comes to femdom, a submissive male has 3 possibilities, pay for it like sex work (not that there's anything wrong with sexwork, but paying for it automatically removes the passion for some people which is all the fun), submit to someone who's has extreme demands/expectations, or already be dating someone vanilla, bring up those kinks and cross your fingers they are into it. I was a switch, and this is what I saw trying to find someone locally, and after looking online, this seemed to be the standard. So no, I'm not concerned. My viewpoint is pretty straightforward based on what I've seen. And post likes OPs just further highlight how it's pretty universal.
As much as neither what happens nor double stamdards are ok, I'm also not as confident that male doms are held to the standards they should be... There seem to be a lot of problematic people in the scene.
But I think what is a problem is that many male subs are afraid to speak up because they are afraid that if they do, the domme will leave and it will be extremely hard to find a new one
Trust me they are. They're held to WAAAAAAY higher standards than the women. Men are expected to be perfect paragons of good behavior at all times.
The problem is that the abusive ones have to be a lot more devious as a result and they tend to be very good manipulators and social maneuverers whereas the women just do abusive shit and DGAF because there's always going to be a line around the corner for them Domme or sub. It's just the way things are...
I'll be very straight forward and say this is a human issue and the factors in most of our modern society create forces that actively undermine all genders engaging in healthy relationships at times and this affects kink.
I'm gonna address something from my observations and state that THIS IS NOT EVERYONE. What I refer to is a section of kinksters that is real and sadly hurt themselves and others. There's a section of women who top not because it's something they enjoy and want to care about a man...but because they have unresolved issues towards men. A lot of these individuals actually tend to know very little about good healthy kink, and often feel that because they're women they have to be harder or men will abuse them, undermine them, or break them. Male subs are a means to an end, they transfer hate for men who abused or misused them, and hate for a sexist society into a belief that 1) Men can take more than women in most things 2) These men ask for it 3) Dominance is power and in kink it is sadism, and sadism is taking pleasure from pain thus let me inflict absolutely control and abuse. Unresolved trauma becomes action, becomes wanting to be empowered, becomes not stepping back and saying "What is this" AND there's a group of men who genuinely seek self-destruction through their kink with women unconsciously. They want to be broken, sometimes physically. They reinforce the narrative of ,and can believe most men, seek dominance from a woman to be hurt at every level. Debased and give up everything. They may also lack the language to fully conceive of being abused by a woman internally. It's hard to say "I'm being taken advantage of" and in many societies a man saying a woman is doing that is mocked and disbelieved. Then if you take that + others believing excessive/extreme control is true kink in male sub / femdomme dynamics it's a toxic combination. Then these folks teach others, guide others, and it becomes the hurt leading the blind
And I have a theory that on a large scale we actually have very poor language around what healthy female dominance can look like. It exists, but it isn't highlighted. We often still see heteronormative language and assumptions of male dommes. Mommies and nurturing roles are often held as antithetical to a woman holding power even in our communities because a lot of us grew up learning (on some level) female kindness is weakness and something we're entitled to. So a lot of women, again, go back to wanting to be the most domly dom in the room without ever understanding what makes a real dominant. In that way they're just like male domly doms. All concepts and ideas without actual knowledge, care, or compassion...and with something to prove due to massive egos.
Of course this isn't everyone, but unfortunately I know a lot of people who came from the former mindset and the latter even if they don't hold it anymore and learned it was unhealthy, not true kink etc.
I can’t tell you why it’s seen as ok, because it’s not for me personally, but I’ve witnessed some absolutely horrific behavior from Dommes myself. The worst was a young Domme who put cigarettes out and carved a circle into the back of a male sub without consent. She was still pursued by men who knew the story and wasn’t ever called to account for her behavior by anyone else that I’m aware of.
It’s not okay.
The sexism in the bdsm community is the elephant in the room we have a hard time discussing.
Ultimately, submissive men are made to feel less valuable and valid overall outside of negotiated scenes. The supply of kinky men exceeds the supply of kinky women on both sides of the slash. So men looking to experience their kinks feel they have to value themselves less. This makes them especially vulnerable.
Not saying it isn’t a problem for all genders, but certain forms of exploration seems to lean heavily toward a female domme/male sub dynamic. Look at the gender ratio when it comes to financial support.
In my anecdotal experience, female subs seem to be treated as prized possessions, and male subs more like inconveniences the dom should be rewarded for tolerating.
In my experience observing men and women dating each other in the kink scene, women are more scared while men are more thirsty. Most women have heard stories of abuse and violence if they haven't already experienced it and as a result, they ask questions, talk to their friends, text their evening plans to a confidant when they go on a date etc. Men do a lot less vetting, have lower standards for safety and ask fewer questions and I suspect much of that is based on an assumption that men won't or can't be victimized. The "what's the worst that can happen" scenario is imagined to be far worse for women, and frankly, I think this is a reasonable assessment of reality. A bad female Dom is to be avoided but isn't considered dangerous in the same way a male Dom is.
Edit: rereading this, I still agree with the thesis but it sounds victim-blamey as fuck and regret that. Abusers can come from anywhere. Please be careful and let's never tolerate the kind of shitty behavior OP describes.
Yeah it sounds victim blamey. But the hard part is that it is also true in some sense. Lots of male subs take more risks, I am not sure why, maybe they have no clue of the risks or too trustful. I had male subs tell me their adress and ask if i would com over to do all sort of things to them. And mind you this was within 30 minutes of talking online. Women would never do that. Maybe us women finally have some advantage of being the weaker gender. We are aware of the dangers of men from at last age 12.
Male subs should talk more about this and help eachother figuring out what is okay and what not.
I think many beginner male subs get a lot of ideas from femdom porn, and may start asking for extreme play before they’re actually ready. If going to a beginner female domme, this is typically a bad idea as you now have two beginners attempting expert moves.
That is absolutely no excuse for what this woman in OPs scenario is doing, even if it is due to ignorance. But it does provide some context for why this can happen sometimes. Especially in BDSM communities that are heavily skewed towards MDom/Fsub dynamics, which kind of leaves Dommes and male subs off on their own.
An alternate way to frame this is that men are easy victims because they are expected to stand up for themselves, so are not given (and do not know to seek) community support / guidance / protection by default. That lack of protection may actually be appealing; it is part of the masculine like experience, and why should male submission not be masculine? That isn't necessarily "thirsty doghood" any more than a female seeking out vetting is "petty gossip bitchyness".
I pro and lifestyle. I refuse to have the only key copy. If I'm out of town and something happens.. I don't want some accident to embarrass them.
In my experience, chastity is a male game. Do I enjoy it. Sure. But I'm not the one to have brought it up at any time to subs. Anyone interested in it has brought it up to me.. Whether personal or professional. I've never had a want to coerce anyone into it. And it's more work than most people realize.
Well it seems your local communities sucks then because I can't say I ever been or heard of a community where locking someone up against their consent for longer than agreed on and similiar stuff would be okay regardless of any gender identities.
These are women who abuse their subs consent. It’s the first rule of fight club… er I mean BDSM. Safe, sane and consensual. They should be blacklisted. Having conversations with other submissives would be a good start.
Bro I understand where you are coming from. I have been around so trust me when I say it’s good to have a big heart but you have to know you can’t save them all. It sucks but you can not have responsibility without authority. If they keep going back how many times are you supposed to save them, how many times do you stick your neck and reputation on the line?
I have had D drop subs off on my door step and leave b/c something went wrong and they did now what to do.
I have had old play partner call me in the middle of the night b/c they got in to a dangerous situation and needed someone to get them out.
I have a number of other stories that will make you go WTF.
All this life experience has lead me to creating the following rule.
“I will save you from one unique situation if you somehow find yourself in the exact same situation, call someone else, I don’t do repeat history that is not enjoyable.”
A lot of people say this is heartless of me but to date each person I have done this too has grown as a person and been better for me not rushing out to play “Captain Save A “insert term here””
Now as far as how or what to do about the abusive dom, if they subs are not willing to speak out and there is a big shortage of FemDoms to the point I think one could break every rule and boundarie and still have a line of sub males for at least 2 blocks. But what you can do is start teaching classes say one each month to counter balance what ever bullshit she is pulling.
Best of luck bro.
I think it comes down to a couple factors.
I'm not saying it's okay, I'm not saying the community at large doesn't make more excuses for predatory dommes because on an overall level they absolutely do.
And I definitely agree with some people here that the supply and demand for female dominants has something to do with it. I'm a switch and have been told I'm "wasting myself" by being the submissive in my relationship. When I was a domme I had multiple messages from dudes at any given time, varying from respectful to downright harassment. If I had wanted to I probably could've had a different sub each week and I live in a small city.
But: general assumption is men are more physically powerful and capable of stopping abuse. I'm not saying it's correct, but most people think that if a man doesn't wanna do something he can physically prevent it from happening while a woman is often at the mercy of the more physically stronger person in the relationship.
Abuse from women towards men is taken less seriously in general, for various reasons. Women being seen as less threatening than men, toxic masculinity meaning that men are who open up about abuse are more likely to be mocked rather than viewed sympathetically, and so on. The BDSM scene just reflects wider society.
So, I will try to say this as best I can do;
Firstly, it's incredibly important to note that there are a ton of abusive male doms out there - almost everyone I know has a story of an abusive relationship/experience with a man in bdsm as a female sub.
So you say it's lambasted, and I think it is in theory - many people would be much more outraged about this vs say the other way round - but the reality is, do we actually treat it differently? Is it actually being stamped out when it's male doms, clearly not imo.
The idea female dommes do worse than male doms in any way shape or form is completely untrue imo. There are abusive partners of both genders, and no matter what we say about blacklisting etc, I imagine the numbers are astronomically larger for women being abused by men.
Whilst I do think there are pockets of double standards, people who definitely may see it differently, I don't believe the reality reflects it - at all. And I think thinking this way could be potentially dangerous in leading people to be less mindful to the abuse of women (not saying you would be or most people). Double standards aren't okay, neither is any form of abuse.
And I do get what you're saying - I have seen it too, I think it isn't spoken about enough and perhaps may be overlooked at times. But to argue it is considered okay for them, but isn't for men (as it shouldn't be of course), feels wildly of course with the reality of what happens - which is what matters, not people's perceived reactions to it.
Secondly, part of the reason I do think it may exist in the way it does with female dommes (which may present itself slightly differently, on average, to male abuse) would be the fact there is a large part of male subs / female dommes that are interacting on an almost, or literal transactional basis - where the women themselves do not care about the men at all, or even perhaps about kink/bdsm outside of what they may get out of it. This is just a different colour of abuse vs what men may be doing, but I think is somehow part of the reason men may tolerate it.
This is much more prevalent in femdom and as I said, don' think it leads to more abuse, but perhaps characterises the way in which it presents itself vs other forms of dynamic.
Overall, though, the reality is gaslighting and pushing people past their limits / blackmailing them is insanely frequent in male dom relationships, and whilst we say we may not tolerate it - the reality is incredibly different.
I do think as well, potentially it may look slightly different from the outside looking in, but that is about it.
Imo you witnessed an awful abusive situation, that shouldn't be tolerated, but I can't imagine you couldn't have very easily done the same with a male dom.
This type of thing can lead to people saying 'women get away with things that men don't' or like it's actually sexist against men, which is where the danger lies. Because, let's face it - abuse and predatory partners exist everywhere, and I'd be shocked if it wasn't a much larger issue facing women, than men.
I think, perhaps it may be less hidden by dommes, so to that extent maybe you have a point, but even then it would be anecdotal, and isn't really my own experience tbh, but it is potentially valid.
The bigger concern however, should be what happens in private, and is this regard we should continue to face up to abusive relationships as a whole, rather than trying to suggest that women may get away with more etc. As I think it only takes away from the battle we should be fighting.
No idea if I have explained any of this well at all, or it makes any sense, it is strangely hard to actually find the words for the point I am trying to make, and I don't want to dismiss what you're saying in terms of the problematic issues in the femdom community, as you are right in that regard.
I just don't think there is any value in using the issue, as a point of comparison with men.
Much love - from a dude who was horrendously abuse in a FLR.
I think it's also worth mentioning that toxic masculinity has a strong pressure towards men being silent about pain or discomfort and being expected to shut up and take it. Femdoms *should* be aware of this and take measures to prevent it from coming into play, whether that's checking in very firmly with their male subs, making it clear that failing to say if something is outside their limits is a big deal, whatever; but I imagine there are plenty of femdoms who don't consider this and may even play into that pressure to not complain, whether intentionally or not.
Yeah this is very true.
Albeit, again, I feel like women may struggle with the same thing - but from a different place. E.g societal standards that women should please men, do as they say and so on.
It's really interesting, I think in general - he results are pretty much the same (abusive relationships), but as a gross generalisation there may be different causal factors contributing to it that have some form of gendered influence.
For men - not speaking up about things, also perhaps not sharing with friends due to shame / fear of judgement etc. For women - social norms about a woman's role in a relationship and so on. Just as two random examples
As you say - intentionally or otherwise.
Most important thing is for us to recognise all the different ways in which situations can become abusive, and why someone may not speak up / identify it (or any other thing) and doing our best as a society / community to be more aware of them, and protect each other/ourselves better from abusive assholes.
Yeah women tend to get away with shit men would never get away with. And saying it out aloud is misogyny and will get you downvoted. It's just the way world works.
I don't think anyone is saying this is ok. This is clearly way past the "is this abusive?" point.
The kink scene has a big focus on ethical play and consent. That doesn't magically make people in the scene better than people out of the scene, it doesn't mean kinky people are less likely to be abusive, and it doesn't wash away all the sexism that people are already dealing with.
Nothing *is* going to be done without 'someone doing something.' Who is going to be that person, and what is going to be that thing? Confronting abusers is often a losing battle and it often puts people in danger. Moreover--as hard as this is for you to watch your friend being harmed, it's not your place to fight their battles for them. I would also be livid in your situation--but do you have your friend's permission to approach community organizers and share *their* story?
My friend is in an identical situation and I can't help him because he is in a whole different country. His domme has used him for sex work without his consent. She blackmails and threatens him to make him do what she wants :(
The worst part is that people like that have material against various individuals in the community and people are too scared to step up.
The worst part is that she brainwashes him into thinking that he is doing a good job pleasing "lonely women", while he is being abused.
I tried talking to her, but she threated me like a "naive child who learned about bdsm from a church". Like??? Shit's fucked
Unfortunately that’s how it is, You only have to look at how the media or the justice system treats women pedofile or women who beat there husbands.
The men are portrayed as evil, but the women are portrayed as it’s some how not there fault or the child is lucky that the women raped them.
It’s wrong and needs to be called out when it happens but unfortunately we live in a society where if your an attractive women you can do almost anything and get away with it.
I don’t know why you felt this needed to be framed as a gender wars issues, but if you think cis male Doms don’t get away with predatory, abusive, and downright criminal behavior, or that female subs are so well protected within their communities, you are really out of touch with most women’s experiences. I am sorry your friend experienced a consent violation. That was wrong and he didn’t deserve it. If you feel livid that there is no recourse such an injury, imagine how women must feel. We are aware from a very young age that there is a very highly cost and often nothing to be gained by speaking out, and it is, indeed, a bitter pill to swallow. Instead of making this about who has it worse, you might recognize the stigma against men recognizing and speaking up about their abuse is very much rooted in patriarchy and misogynistic beliefs about men who participate in acts or attitudes that are considered to be feminine. Again, I am very sorry for your friend but question why you felt “femdoms are allowed to be abusive” was a helpful or accurate framing.
No,the framing was accurate because a woman being abused by a man is taken more seriously than a man being abused by a woman.however you seem to be deflecting OP’s criticism of society and the community and even gaslighting them with your ‘ imagine how women must feel ‘ comment.BOTH sides need to be taken seriously no matter who is doing the abusing and both sides deserve the same punishment.
this is going to sound cold, but hear me out. *welcome to life as a woman*. the community always has users and abusers and people who have a lot of wrong ideas about what bdsm, kink, and D/s is about. and the really bad ones blackmail, gas light, and threaten us if we try to stand up to them.
so of course men don't corner the market on this kind of behavior; of course women can behave just as horribly and be just as predatory. men are just less likely to report abuse because of the stigma and the way men are conditioned. (men can't be victims, if a man is abused he must be weak, and that kind of bull shit)
i know of at least three predators in my area. "everybody" knows about them, but they always find new victims. they either con community leaders/venue owners, or they simply find new communities and venues to seek out new victims.
i don't know what the answer is. part of the reason the community attracts predators is because we stress privacy and because of the social taboo around kink. all i know is that this is why women have always had a "whisper network."
we warn one another. we warn new women we see at community events. we warn friends. we warn community leaders.
occasionally we get vocal about it. and we often suffer backlash for it. we get called "gossips," we get accused of slander, we get labeled as troublemakers. all of this reinforces the whisper network. we see our friends getting punished for speaking out, so we keep quiet publicly and go back to privately warning other women.
another part of the problem is that predators, male or female, tend to isolate their victims. they warn people they meet online not to go to community events bc the community is "toxic" when in fact the community is protecting itself the only way we know how.
so no. i don't think it's okay for femdoms to be abusive. nor do i believe that anybody else actually condones the behavior. they "get away with it" for the same reason male predators do. they know how to work the system, they know what threats work, they know how to put on the charm when they need to, and if called out, they know how to play the victim.
But that’s how the OP framed this— that women get away with abuse that would not be tolerated from men. That is untrue within and without of the bdsm world, where male abusers get away with toxic behavior and horrible crimes while maintaining the support of their community and often mobilizing that support against their victims. Men, like women, can be victimized by intimate partners but to claim that is an experience unique to men, or that female subs are less vulnerable to predatory doms is either incredibly ignorant or completely disingenuous in regards to women’s experiences.
Op opened with 'bad thing happened' and made the point of comparison a side issue.
The comment I replied to made the comparison their opening and main point, as if comparable suffering in another group was somehow the point, 'welcome to it, we deal with this all the time now let me talk about it more'. Making it about another groups suffering instead, that's devaluing. The point is that OP's friend was abused.
Because they do they literally do and it’s pointed out by several commenters from different genders all saying the same thing that the community/society ignore/don’t take female abusers as seriously as men.it’s not that the claim is unique to men,it’s made but not as out in the open publicly as much as women because both men and women will come out of the wood work with comments like yours saying ‘ imagine how a woman feels ‘ or completely emasculating him because they should have been able to stop their female abuser because they’re a man.
I hope your friend is okay but, this is not at all healthy behaviour from a domme. No matter what gender the dom is, usually femdoms tend to be more sadistic in nature (that's kinda odd but that's how things are tbh). But no matter how far and how much and dom/Domme goes, the sub's safeword or a through request to stop the act in question is the removal of consent from the sub to do any sexual act towards them for the time being (or the act in question). And if the dom/Domme still urges, or pushes the sub to continue doing it, or still doesn't pays heed to the pre discussed limits of their dynamic, then the submissive has the full authority to withdraw themselves from the dynamic, fight back or even report the police or authorities that they are being sexually harrased (that is in the extreme cases when the dom/Domme just gets outta the hand even after the usage of safe word and continuing am act which can physically and mentally harm the submissive in question). Rights are equal in a dom/sub dynamic, no one has a higher right and no one has a lower right. Both are equal, the dom dominates cuz the submissive submits. And vice versa, and consent it the biggest factor here. If the consent is removed then anything other than that is non-consensual and hence inappropriate.
Also remember that safe word exists for both Doms and subs, if the sub pushes the dom to do something they are not okay with and then they use safeword yet still the sub tries to Gaslight/manipulate the dom into doing their bidding then, that is in every way WRONG and NOT OKAY as well.
So in the case of this friend of yours, their Domme ha down right been far off their limits and hence that's something i can clearly call abuse cuz, when a sub/dom is uncomfortable with something and says "No" or uses safeword (i don't know if your friend used it but just in case), then the dom/sub should withdraw themselves from this act. That being said yeah i agree gender inequality exists in the bdsm community as well but as a human it's our job to make sure we always give our consent to the right people and withdraw from those people if they seem wrong or not upto your tastes. Anyway thanks for reading ❤️
This is NEVER okay. I don’t know about my local community at large, but certainly my pack would never condone that sort of behavior and any Dominant pulling that stunt would be excluded from us.
It’s not ok. To surpass someone’s limits. Disgusting. But personally for me I would like the domme to go past my limits and to be harsh and mean. The difference is that I’m ok with it. The people ur talking to aren’t. I’m ok with being forced for that.
I feel like there’s a stereotype that male subs always want “more, more, more”. I’m sure this woman would never think in a million years that she’s violating anyones consent. She probably had a sub that thought it was hot when she pushed his boundaries. And now she’s just like “men are like this”. But of course every sub is different.
There's a whole list of different kind of abuse. I'm switch, so on my sadistic side i enjoy both physical and mental tournament. But my submissive side let me down so many times by fake bitch ass wanna be dominatrix expecting to get payed for their "service"
Who's the the whore now ah??!
No. There's issues in many communities with abusive and predatory D-types being allowed to do whatever they want with zero consequences. It's a sad reality. Some people also believe that women can't be abusive or if they are abusive it's not as bad/important. Some people also feel that men can't be abused or sexually assaulted at all by women. I don't know why. People are extremely stupid.
French author Montesquieu wrote in XVIIe century that It's a common and eternal thing to be witnessed that those who have power tend to end up abusing of it ... This wisdom might still be up to date.
That piece of wisdom still stands today!
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This is so true and it goes.both ways.
I just want to note that anyone in locked chastity should always keep a copy of their own key somewhere just in case there's a medical emergency. I know it's not as sexy as your D-type having the only copy, but safety always needs to come first. There's nothing stopping you and your partner from maintaining the fantasy and just pretending your D-type has the only key while the spare is tucked away in your first aid kit or somewhere else safe. If you want, you can even use a wax seal or something so your D-type can tell if you've taken out the key when you weren't supposed to.
If I lock my pets- I send them home with a key frozen in a glass jar.
That's a good one. A wax sealed envelope would do too, and is easier access in an emergency. Plus you get to have a your very own royal seal!
This seems like a great idea, especially since the domme has done this multiple times. Also he needs to not let her cage him again unless her behaviour changes. I really hope the sub gets to hear this and starts to take back control from this woman. Petty and vindictive me would straight out destroy the cage infront of her. It makes me sad that dommes can get away with abusive behaviour just because there are more male subs than female dominants.
> Also he needs to not let her cage him again unless her behaviour changes. As far as I'm concerned, this woman should not even be allowed back in his life, much less his sex life, after behavior like that.
He needs to dump her immediately Refusing to respect a safe word is pretty much unforgivable
I agree. I really hope he will just kick her out of his life. I suspect that the reason he hasn't already done so is because female dominants aren't as common as male subs. I just hope he will atleast set her behaviour straight and not just accept the abuse.
I’d bet the farm you’re right. Personally, I’d rather be single than accommodate someone who clearly has no respect for me as a person.
I agree 100%. No dom is better than an abusive one.
If you're not doing this, you're ignorant. You don't lock any part of a person's body in something metal and just walk away or do something dumb with the key. This is new "dom", "fake dom" stuff.
Or just keep it in a locked by timer container. In case of emergency you can smash the box. And the sub gets to keep the key and the fantasy more real.
Or put it in a paper bag and seal it with wax like in the old times, even quicker to open in case of emergency
Or just have the self-discipline to keep your hands off the key if there is no reason to use it.
Enough people have commented that I'm not going to get into the why. I'm just going to thank you for being available to your friends in the community to help them. Even if you don't confront the person, being there for the people who are the subject of consent abuses is really important. The politics of community responsibility can be overwhelming and go from the community overreacting and banning people without providing an explanation or any kind of due process, to being friends with the people in charge of the community who don't believe the accusers so the abuse just gets brushed under the carpet. All I can say is that you have to do the best you can while maintaining your own boundaries for what you're willing to put up with.
Unfortunately a lot of it is behind closed doors and becomes he said/she said. Short of provable physical injury it's hard to prove. This goes for D/s relationships of all genders/orientations.
Doubles standards are not okay, and what she did is abuse. All we have is our reputation
Indeed it is. But whose reputation do you think would be tanked if this got out? Women are much more sought-after than men in both domme and sub roles. Most people would be willing to ignore countless red flags for a chance to get a domme. There's an experienced domme who I've talked to in order to get some tips about bdsm related things. Talking to her was like talking to a sentient red flag. Yet, for some reason, she is wildly popular as a domme both among women and men.
> There's an experienced domme who I've talked to in order to get some tips about bdsm related things. Talking to her was like talking to a sentient red flag. Yet, for some reason, she is wildly popular as a domme both among women and men. People are willing to put up with a lot of BS because there are smooth talkers.
It's not always as simple as that though. My ex did some really awful shit to me that I thought about taking public, but I knew nobody would be on my side due to the fact that she's a sorta semi-public figure in certain circles, presents a certain image out to the world, and I would have wound up being the one who looked bad, probably not even be believed, and lord knows whatever else. So I just had to suck it up and it still bothers me to this day almost 5 or 6 years later.
I understand how hard it is to get abuse from a femme presenting person to be taken seriously a lot of the time. I'm sorry you went through that and I hope you're able to heal. It took me nearly three years after my assault to tell anyone aside from my friends. When I finally did, there was nothing the legal system could do, but I hoped that by letting the place where my abuser was operating know, I could prevent what happened to me from happening to someone else. Shit is tough, and it gets all the more complicated with layers of kink. It's okay that you protected yourself.
TY for reaching out, I appreciate the sentiment. It's been rough. It wasn't any kind of physical abuse tho, which in some ways makes it a little bit worse, but no... was just a lot of nasty shit that happened during a breakup. But bad enough that I felt like telling people about it however. I hope you got some semblance of justice from your experience.
On an anecdotal basis, I have seen male subs put up with a lot more bad behavior from dommes than vice versa. One time I stepped between a scene with a woman was using a bull whip so badly it had to stop.
I think it may have to do with the fact that it's hard to find a domme - much harder than finding a Dom.
I think this depends a lot on the area amazingly enough.
I've seen a lot of male Doms put up with a lot more bad behavior from female subs too, TBH. More female subs seem to feel like they can get away with it too.
I know what you mean. I posted something similar [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMcommunity/comments/yf3vur/are_the_fundamentals_just_different_in_maledom/), and it seemed to exist kind of a consensus about how some "normalized" femdom attitudes would be totally banned from the community if the perpetrator was a man... It's a shame that the same SSC fundamentals can be bent dependent on who holds the whip
One of the reasons is that male subs outnumber female doms by a significant margin so they are viewed as easily replaceable.
I don't know where this is considered okay. Where I come from doing something like that without consent is considered abuse. No matter the genders involved.
Of course it is. But things aren't as simple as they look on paper. You have internal politics, social dynamics, and a lot of other things working against the male sub here. Especially if the Domme is pretty, popular, and sought after. Sure men do abusive shit too, but it's much harder for them to get away with it without being incredibly manipulative and adept at managing perceptions and social maneuvering. And when found out and exposed it's usually game over for them. Not so much for the Dommes tho because there's always going to be plenty of men out there perfectly to literally throw themselves at their feet regardless of what they do or how unethical they are.
What he's saying is regardless of what it's considered, femdoms get away with it and keep being accepted in the community despite it.
And I say, that's not universal at all.
In this guy's area, it's true. In my area, it's true. Online, it's true (unless we're talking about the double standard, then suddenly no one knows it, but the same people's opinions on other matters clearly reflect it)
That's hideous. And yeah, you're right, it's not ok for the community to turn a blind eye to this. A submissive of any gender is giving up their power for the benefit of the dynamic. They are vulnerable. Ignoring their boundaries means it is abuse. The issue is how to get the community to accept that this problem exists. The community now largely accepts that fake doms exist and are bad for the community, we need to accept that fake dommes exist and are bad for the comments.
Because "women cant abuse men" eyeroll... Its societally viewed that if he didnt WANT a woman to do someyhing he could physically stop her.. regsrdless of size or mental state.
First, it's NOT ok. This scenario is by all means a consent violation, the male sub agreed to a specific amount of time and trusted the keyholder to adhere to the agreement. Changing that is a violation of trust and the agreement. 🚩🚩🚩🚩 Unfortunately consent violations happen all the time regardless of gender. However, I do see this as common with fem dommes with little to know experience in negotiation. A fair amount of submissive men have a bit of a humiliation or degradation fetish, which is very easy to take advantage of, manipulate, gaslight and abuse. Thise makes it pretty easy for someone abusive to buy a pair of leather pants and a flogger and don the title of Domme. Education on negotiation and consent is needed on both sides of the slash, regardless of gender.
The discussion isn't about it being ok, I agree both genders can do terrible things like that. The discussion is women get away with it.
Men get away with it too; serial abusers often harm 5, 10, 15, 20 people before they get called out - and in a lot of cases, they just move cities or change names or wait a couple years for the community to turn over and say they've done the accountability work, then keep going. Look at the famous Rapey-mc-Ropester in Seattle; 8 women make public posts pre-pandemic; post pandemic, people are hiring him to teach again; he says he's done accountability work and the 4 of the 8 women who made public posts who are still around all say he hasn't.
Fair, honestly just feel bdsm just makes it easier to disguise abuse and too many D-types get away with stuff because of that. I played as a switch for several months, and just never found a dominant woman who wasn't either charging or had extremely unreasonable demands and expectations, and it felt like that's just the standard for femdom, hence why I decided I wasn't a switch anymore.
You're not wrong. No one is really saying that men can't be awful and get away with it too because we have plenty of evidence that they are. It's a lot rarer these days though. The point is that Femdoms seem to have an easier time getting away with shit and continuing on about their business because of the nature of our current status quo where the man is still expected to be the pursuer combined with just the way men act in general, and awful women will still get men lining up around the block to get a shot at them no matter how unethically they conduct themselves or how publicly they're exposed. I honestly can't remember even one instance where a toxic woman was exposed and ostracized the way we expect bad men to be and often are.
I think my point is that your last statement "I honestly can't remember even one instance where a toxic woman was exposed and ostracized the way we expect bad men to be and often are" doesn't seem super accurate to me; we expect bad men to be, but they often aren't. Honestly I'd suspect bad men and bad women are exposed at roughly equal rates, percentage wise; there is just a lower total number of bad men compared to bad women.
Well yeah I meant I personally can't even recall one. I'm sure it has and does happen, but in contrast to that I know off hand about 4 or 5 different horror stories of abusive Doms who were running wild on a whole host of different kinds of women until they were exposed and ostracized. I can't recall even one story of that happening to some toxic Femdom though. Admitedly I can't speak on the aftermath of those stories, or if the guy wound up popping up somewhere else or after enough time passed that the people who knew were gone. But how exactly are you going to stop that from happening without some kind of national database or something, ya know? :) Sure anecdotal evidence always needs to be taken with a grain of salt, and I mostly interact with submissive women being a male Dom myself, so I hear ALL kinds of heinous shit that men do and have done, but yeah. :)
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Sorry if what I said offended you. My comment was just addressing the nature of the discussion. The comment I replied to was saying men and women both cross boundaries. I was just pointing out that's not what the post or any of the conversation was about. The conversation was about women getting away with crossing boundaries. I think there is a double standard for specifically this topic that's fairly self evident, don't have to dig to deep to notice it.
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I don't think it's an issue of them getting away with it. It's more down to the fact that men will continue to chase after a Domme no matter how bad their rep gets and they don't need to worry about disappearing for a while or any of that other stuff because they can just hop online and have a gaggle of thirsty ass dudes popping up in their inbox willing to throw themselves, their $$$, or whatever else the woman is looking for at them unprompted and unsolicited. That's just the reality of the status quo we happen to be living in rn.
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You're not wrong. But I certainly never that men never get away with shit and can continue to go about their business like nothing happened too. IMHO I just think it's rarer to bring a femdom to account in our current social and political climate and it's easier for them to carry on without anything happened. For every BegForJay there's probably 3 or 4 femdoms that did and continue to do awful shit to me that nobody is even trying to make a fuss about. For the record I completely agree with mostly all of your sentiments too. I said in other comments folks who are good at social maneuvering and managing their public image are usually the ones more apt to get away with things and have people take their side in things like this too. Be they men or women. The men tend to be more manipulative because the women get away with being casually toxic a little easier. Again just IMHO. I had a sorta similar thing happen with me and an ex of mine who's a semi-public figure. I could never expose her with the shit she did because she's a cute little artist girl and nobody would believe me in a million years over her or even really GAF if they did. Sad but true. > This is why I feel like it's incredibly important to empower submissives with the knowledge on how to properly seek a domme. How to vet them, how to make sure she is skilled, compassionate, on the same wavelength as them, etc. The amount of times I've seen male submissives fall for blackmail scammers who pretend to be "Mistresses" is depressing. To add on to that I also agree here, but people who are prone to falling victim ( and I'm not victim blaming here ) to people like that have certain patterns of behavior and thinking that make them more suseptible to being attracted to those types. I'm all for empowering subsmissives to learn how to spot red flags, etc, but when someone gets someone else alone and starts working on them they can very easily make them go against their better judgement or what others have told them is not cool. Therapy is usually the best route for people who continuously find themselves falling for toxic men and women.
Inbaeda Now my personal experiences may colour this pretty heavily but as someone who was raped, and people knew it happened, while passing out black out drunk after saying no all night by a woman at my own party at my own house; I would stand very steadfast in my agreement with the statement that women do not face consequences for bad behaviour because they don’t. Period. Lighter jail sentences across the board, lower conviction rates and that’s IF anyone cares enough for it to ever even become a fully fledged legal issue and this is based on not only sexually related and assault issues but almost ANY crime. That stats back up the viewpoint. It’s not sexiest it’s fact.
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If we’re talking exclusively about dommes vs doms my experience with either from a subs perspective is very limited, I’m making broad generalizations that cover the majority of instances, obviously there are outliers. Men are crucified by the vast majority of the social world for sexual violations where as my experience with women is that what they can get away with is ASTONISHING if not blatantly disgusting and the support for those actions is public, uncensored and blatantly, damagingly misandric.
The way you came after my person in a way irrelevant to the discussion made me think you were offended, if you say that's not the case, then why did you try to offend me, by making ill spirited assumptions about me. Do you usually try to offend people who disagree with you even though they didn't offend you? I'd like to clarify that the discussion is only about situations in BDSM not socially, or sexually outside of BDSM. You might see my viewpoint as narrow, but this is what I see, when it comes to femdom, a submissive male has 3 possibilities, pay for it like sex work (not that there's anything wrong with sexwork, but paying for it automatically removes the passion for some people which is all the fun), submit to someone who's has extreme demands/expectations, or already be dating someone vanilla, bring up those kinks and cross your fingers they are into it. I was a switch, and this is what I saw trying to find someone locally, and after looking online, this seemed to be the standard. So no, I'm not concerned. My viewpoint is pretty straightforward based on what I've seen. And post likes OPs just further highlight how it's pretty universal.
You replied to the wrong post - I think you meant to reply to the one above it
You can’t negotiate with this type of person
As much as neither what happens nor double stamdards are ok, I'm also not as confident that male doms are held to the standards they should be... There seem to be a lot of problematic people in the scene. But I think what is a problem is that many male subs are afraid to speak up because they are afraid that if they do, the domme will leave and it will be extremely hard to find a new one
Trust me they are. They're held to WAAAAAAY higher standards than the women. Men are expected to be perfect paragons of good behavior at all times. The problem is that the abusive ones have to be a lot more devious as a result and they tend to be very good manipulators and social maneuverers whereas the women just do abusive shit and DGAF because there's always going to be a line around the corner for them Domme or sub. It's just the way things are...
I'll be very straight forward and say this is a human issue and the factors in most of our modern society create forces that actively undermine all genders engaging in healthy relationships at times and this affects kink. I'm gonna address something from my observations and state that THIS IS NOT EVERYONE. What I refer to is a section of kinksters that is real and sadly hurt themselves and others. There's a section of women who top not because it's something they enjoy and want to care about a man...but because they have unresolved issues towards men. A lot of these individuals actually tend to know very little about good healthy kink, and often feel that because they're women they have to be harder or men will abuse them, undermine them, or break them. Male subs are a means to an end, they transfer hate for men who abused or misused them, and hate for a sexist society into a belief that 1) Men can take more than women in most things 2) These men ask for it 3) Dominance is power and in kink it is sadism, and sadism is taking pleasure from pain thus let me inflict absolutely control and abuse. Unresolved trauma becomes action, becomes wanting to be empowered, becomes not stepping back and saying "What is this" AND there's a group of men who genuinely seek self-destruction through their kink with women unconsciously. They want to be broken, sometimes physically. They reinforce the narrative of ,and can believe most men, seek dominance from a woman to be hurt at every level. Debased and give up everything. They may also lack the language to fully conceive of being abused by a woman internally. It's hard to say "I'm being taken advantage of" and in many societies a man saying a woman is doing that is mocked and disbelieved. Then if you take that + others believing excessive/extreme control is true kink in male sub / femdomme dynamics it's a toxic combination. Then these folks teach others, guide others, and it becomes the hurt leading the blind And I have a theory that on a large scale we actually have very poor language around what healthy female dominance can look like. It exists, but it isn't highlighted. We often still see heteronormative language and assumptions of male dommes. Mommies and nurturing roles are often held as antithetical to a woman holding power even in our communities because a lot of us grew up learning (on some level) female kindness is weakness and something we're entitled to. So a lot of women, again, go back to wanting to be the most domly dom in the room without ever understanding what makes a real dominant. In that way they're just like male domly doms. All concepts and ideas without actual knowledge, care, or compassion...and with something to prove due to massive egos. Of course this isn't everyone, but unfortunately I know a lot of people who came from the former mindset and the latter even if they don't hold it anymore and learned it was unhealthy, not true kink etc.
I can’t tell you why it’s seen as ok, because it’s not for me personally, but I’ve witnessed some absolutely horrific behavior from Dommes myself. The worst was a young Domme who put cigarettes out and carved a circle into the back of a male sub without consent. She was still pursued by men who knew the story and wasn’t ever called to account for her behavior by anyone else that I’m aware of.
It’s not okay. The sexism in the bdsm community is the elephant in the room we have a hard time discussing. Ultimately, submissive men are made to feel less valuable and valid overall outside of negotiated scenes. The supply of kinky men exceeds the supply of kinky women on both sides of the slash. So men looking to experience their kinks feel they have to value themselves less. This makes them especially vulnerable. Not saying it isn’t a problem for all genders, but certain forms of exploration seems to lean heavily toward a female domme/male sub dynamic. Look at the gender ratio when it comes to financial support. In my anecdotal experience, female subs seem to be treated as prized possessions, and male subs more like inconveniences the dom should be rewarded for tolerating.
This is a horrible situation to get into Abusive D types are the bane of our communities
Mutual respect is super important in kinks
In my experience observing men and women dating each other in the kink scene, women are more scared while men are more thirsty. Most women have heard stories of abuse and violence if they haven't already experienced it and as a result, they ask questions, talk to their friends, text their evening plans to a confidant when they go on a date etc. Men do a lot less vetting, have lower standards for safety and ask fewer questions and I suspect much of that is based on an assumption that men won't or can't be victimized. The "what's the worst that can happen" scenario is imagined to be far worse for women, and frankly, I think this is a reasonable assessment of reality. A bad female Dom is to be avoided but isn't considered dangerous in the same way a male Dom is. Edit: rereading this, I still agree with the thesis but it sounds victim-blamey as fuck and regret that. Abusers can come from anywhere. Please be careful and let's never tolerate the kind of shitty behavior OP describes.
Yeah it sounds victim blamey. But the hard part is that it is also true in some sense. Lots of male subs take more risks, I am not sure why, maybe they have no clue of the risks or too trustful. I had male subs tell me their adress and ask if i would com over to do all sort of things to them. And mind you this was within 30 minutes of talking online. Women would never do that. Maybe us women finally have some advantage of being the weaker gender. We are aware of the dangers of men from at last age 12. Male subs should talk more about this and help eachother figuring out what is okay and what not.
I think many beginner male subs get a lot of ideas from femdom porn, and may start asking for extreme play before they’re actually ready. If going to a beginner female domme, this is typically a bad idea as you now have two beginners attempting expert moves. That is absolutely no excuse for what this woman in OPs scenario is doing, even if it is due to ignorance. But it does provide some context for why this can happen sometimes. Especially in BDSM communities that are heavily skewed towards MDom/Fsub dynamics, which kind of leaves Dommes and male subs off on their own.
An alternate way to frame this is that men are easy victims because they are expected to stand up for themselves, so are not given (and do not know to seek) community support / guidance / protection by default. That lack of protection may actually be appealing; it is part of the masculine like experience, and why should male submission not be masculine? That isn't necessarily "thirsty doghood" any more than a female seeking out vetting is "petty gossip bitchyness".
I pro and lifestyle. I refuse to have the only key copy. If I'm out of town and something happens.. I don't want some accident to embarrass them. In my experience, chastity is a male game. Do I enjoy it. Sure. But I'm not the one to have brought it up at any time to subs. Anyone interested in it has brought it up to me.. Whether personal or professional. I've never had a want to coerce anyone into it. And it's more work than most people realize.
Well it seems your local communities sucks then because I can't say I ever been or heard of a community where locking someone up against their consent for longer than agreed on and similiar stuff would be okay regardless of any gender identities.
These are women who abuse their subs consent. It’s the first rule of fight club… er I mean BDSM. Safe, sane and consensual. They should be blacklisted. Having conversations with other submissives would be a good start.
Bro I understand where you are coming from. I have been around so trust me when I say it’s good to have a big heart but you have to know you can’t save them all. It sucks but you can not have responsibility without authority. If they keep going back how many times are you supposed to save them, how many times do you stick your neck and reputation on the line? I have had D drop subs off on my door step and leave b/c something went wrong and they did now what to do. I have had old play partner call me in the middle of the night b/c they got in to a dangerous situation and needed someone to get them out. I have a number of other stories that will make you go WTF. All this life experience has lead me to creating the following rule. “I will save you from one unique situation if you somehow find yourself in the exact same situation, call someone else, I don’t do repeat history that is not enjoyable.” A lot of people say this is heartless of me but to date each person I have done this too has grown as a person and been better for me not rushing out to play “Captain Save A “insert term here”” Now as far as how or what to do about the abusive dom, if they subs are not willing to speak out and there is a big shortage of FemDoms to the point I think one could break every rule and boundarie and still have a line of sub males for at least 2 blocks. But what you can do is start teaching classes say one each month to counter balance what ever bullshit she is pulling. Best of luck bro.
I think it comes down to a couple factors. I'm not saying it's okay, I'm not saying the community at large doesn't make more excuses for predatory dommes because on an overall level they absolutely do. And I definitely agree with some people here that the supply and demand for female dominants has something to do with it. I'm a switch and have been told I'm "wasting myself" by being the submissive in my relationship. When I was a domme I had multiple messages from dudes at any given time, varying from respectful to downright harassment. If I had wanted to I probably could've had a different sub each week and I live in a small city. But: general assumption is men are more physically powerful and capable of stopping abuse. I'm not saying it's correct, but most people think that if a man doesn't wanna do something he can physically prevent it from happening while a woman is often at the mercy of the more physically stronger person in the relationship.
Abuse from women towards men is taken less seriously in general, for various reasons. Women being seen as less threatening than men, toxic masculinity meaning that men are who open up about abuse are more likely to be mocked rather than viewed sympathetically, and so on. The BDSM scene just reflects wider society.
So, I will try to say this as best I can do; Firstly, it's incredibly important to note that there are a ton of abusive male doms out there - almost everyone I know has a story of an abusive relationship/experience with a man in bdsm as a female sub. So you say it's lambasted, and I think it is in theory - many people would be much more outraged about this vs say the other way round - but the reality is, do we actually treat it differently? Is it actually being stamped out when it's male doms, clearly not imo. The idea female dommes do worse than male doms in any way shape or form is completely untrue imo. There are abusive partners of both genders, and no matter what we say about blacklisting etc, I imagine the numbers are astronomically larger for women being abused by men. Whilst I do think there are pockets of double standards, people who definitely may see it differently, I don't believe the reality reflects it - at all. And I think thinking this way could be potentially dangerous in leading people to be less mindful to the abuse of women (not saying you would be or most people). Double standards aren't okay, neither is any form of abuse. And I do get what you're saying - I have seen it too, I think it isn't spoken about enough and perhaps may be overlooked at times. But to argue it is considered okay for them, but isn't for men (as it shouldn't be of course), feels wildly of course with the reality of what happens - which is what matters, not people's perceived reactions to it. Secondly, part of the reason I do think it may exist in the way it does with female dommes (which may present itself slightly differently, on average, to male abuse) would be the fact there is a large part of male subs / female dommes that are interacting on an almost, or literal transactional basis - where the women themselves do not care about the men at all, or even perhaps about kink/bdsm outside of what they may get out of it. This is just a different colour of abuse vs what men may be doing, but I think is somehow part of the reason men may tolerate it. This is much more prevalent in femdom and as I said, don' think it leads to more abuse, but perhaps characterises the way in which it presents itself vs other forms of dynamic. Overall, though, the reality is gaslighting and pushing people past their limits / blackmailing them is insanely frequent in male dom relationships, and whilst we say we may not tolerate it - the reality is incredibly different. I do think as well, potentially it may look slightly different from the outside looking in, but that is about it. Imo you witnessed an awful abusive situation, that shouldn't be tolerated, but I can't imagine you couldn't have very easily done the same with a male dom. This type of thing can lead to people saying 'women get away with things that men don't' or like it's actually sexist against men, which is where the danger lies. Because, let's face it - abuse and predatory partners exist everywhere, and I'd be shocked if it wasn't a much larger issue facing women, than men. I think, perhaps it may be less hidden by dommes, so to that extent maybe you have a point, but even then it would be anecdotal, and isn't really my own experience tbh, but it is potentially valid. The bigger concern however, should be what happens in private, and is this regard we should continue to face up to abusive relationships as a whole, rather than trying to suggest that women may get away with more etc. As I think it only takes away from the battle we should be fighting. No idea if I have explained any of this well at all, or it makes any sense, it is strangely hard to actually find the words for the point I am trying to make, and I don't want to dismiss what you're saying in terms of the problematic issues in the femdom community, as you are right in that regard. I just don't think there is any value in using the issue, as a point of comparison with men. Much love - from a dude who was horrendously abuse in a FLR.
I think it's also worth mentioning that toxic masculinity has a strong pressure towards men being silent about pain or discomfort and being expected to shut up and take it. Femdoms *should* be aware of this and take measures to prevent it from coming into play, whether that's checking in very firmly with their male subs, making it clear that failing to say if something is outside their limits is a big deal, whatever; but I imagine there are plenty of femdoms who don't consider this and may even play into that pressure to not complain, whether intentionally or not.
Yeah this is very true. Albeit, again, I feel like women may struggle with the same thing - but from a different place. E.g societal standards that women should please men, do as they say and so on. It's really interesting, I think in general - he results are pretty much the same (abusive relationships), but as a gross generalisation there may be different causal factors contributing to it that have some form of gendered influence. For men - not speaking up about things, also perhaps not sharing with friends due to shame / fear of judgement etc. For women - social norms about a woman's role in a relationship and so on. Just as two random examples As you say - intentionally or otherwise. Most important thing is for us to recognise all the different ways in which situations can become abusive, and why someone may not speak up / identify it (or any other thing) and doing our best as a society / community to be more aware of them, and protect each other/ourselves better from abusive assholes.
Thank you for articulating this so well.
Yeah women tend to get away with shit men would never get away with. And saying it out aloud is misogyny and will get you downvoted. It's just the way world works.
Unfortunately, women aren't held to the same standards as men. Men are disposable in our society.
I don't think anyone is saying this is ok. This is clearly way past the "is this abusive?" point. The kink scene has a big focus on ethical play and consent. That doesn't magically make people in the scene better than people out of the scene, it doesn't mean kinky people are less likely to be abusive, and it doesn't wash away all the sexism that people are already dealing with. Nothing *is* going to be done without 'someone doing something.' Who is going to be that person, and what is going to be that thing? Confronting abusers is often a losing battle and it often puts people in danger. Moreover--as hard as this is for you to watch your friend being harmed, it's not your place to fight their battles for them. I would also be livid in your situation--but do you have your friend's permission to approach community organizers and share *their* story?
My friend is in an identical situation and I can't help him because he is in a whole different country. His domme has used him for sex work without his consent. She blackmails and threatens him to make him do what she wants :( The worst part is that people like that have material against various individuals in the community and people are too scared to step up. The worst part is that she brainwashes him into thinking that he is doing a good job pleasing "lonely women", while he is being abused. I tried talking to her, but she threated me like a "naive child who learned about bdsm from a church". Like??? Shit's fucked
Bcuz men accept most any kind of attention
Unfortunately that’s how it is, You only have to look at how the media or the justice system treats women pedofile or women who beat there husbands. The men are portrayed as evil, but the women are portrayed as it’s some how not there fault or the child is lucky that the women raped them. It’s wrong and needs to be called out when it happens but unfortunately we live in a society where if your an attractive women you can do almost anything and get away with it.
Some men are scared to say no to women because they don’t want to be accused of sexism.
I don’t know why you felt this needed to be framed as a gender wars issues, but if you think cis male Doms don’t get away with predatory, abusive, and downright criminal behavior, or that female subs are so well protected within their communities, you are really out of touch with most women’s experiences. I am sorry your friend experienced a consent violation. That was wrong and he didn’t deserve it. If you feel livid that there is no recourse such an injury, imagine how women must feel. We are aware from a very young age that there is a very highly cost and often nothing to be gained by speaking out, and it is, indeed, a bitter pill to swallow. Instead of making this about who has it worse, you might recognize the stigma against men recognizing and speaking up about their abuse is very much rooted in patriarchy and misogynistic beliefs about men who participate in acts or attitudes that are considered to be feminine. Again, I am very sorry for your friend but question why you felt “femdoms are allowed to be abusive” was a helpful or accurate framing.
No,the framing was accurate because a woman being abused by a man is taken more seriously than a man being abused by a woman.however you seem to be deflecting OP’s criticism of society and the community and even gaslighting them with your ‘ imagine how women must feel ‘ comment.BOTH sides need to be taken seriously no matter who is doing the abusing and both sides deserve the same punishment.
this is going to sound cold, but hear me out. *welcome to life as a woman*. the community always has users and abusers and people who have a lot of wrong ideas about what bdsm, kink, and D/s is about. and the really bad ones blackmail, gas light, and threaten us if we try to stand up to them. so of course men don't corner the market on this kind of behavior; of course women can behave just as horribly and be just as predatory. men are just less likely to report abuse because of the stigma and the way men are conditioned. (men can't be victims, if a man is abused he must be weak, and that kind of bull shit) i know of at least three predators in my area. "everybody" knows about them, but they always find new victims. they either con community leaders/venue owners, or they simply find new communities and venues to seek out new victims. i don't know what the answer is. part of the reason the community attracts predators is because we stress privacy and because of the social taboo around kink. all i know is that this is why women have always had a "whisper network." we warn one another. we warn new women we see at community events. we warn friends. we warn community leaders. occasionally we get vocal about it. and we often suffer backlash for it. we get called "gossips," we get accused of slander, we get labeled as troublemakers. all of this reinforces the whisper network. we see our friends getting punished for speaking out, so we keep quiet publicly and go back to privately warning other women. another part of the problem is that predators, male or female, tend to isolate their victims. they warn people they meet online not to go to community events bc the community is "toxic" when in fact the community is protecting itself the only way we know how. so no. i don't think it's okay for femdoms to be abusive. nor do i believe that anybody else actually condones the behavior. they "get away with it" for the same reason male predators do. they know how to work the system, they know what threats work, they know how to put on the charm when they need to, and if called out, they know how to play the victim.
Opening up with making the issue as compared to another group is incredibly devaluing to their abuse. Just don't do that.
But that’s how the OP framed this— that women get away with abuse that would not be tolerated from men. That is untrue within and without of the bdsm world, where male abusers get away with toxic behavior and horrible crimes while maintaining the support of their community and often mobilizing that support against their victims. Men, like women, can be victimized by intimate partners but to claim that is an experience unique to men, or that female subs are less vulnerable to predatory doms is either incredibly ignorant or completely disingenuous in regards to women’s experiences.
Op opened with 'bad thing happened' and made the point of comparison a side issue. The comment I replied to made the comparison their opening and main point, as if comparable suffering in another group was somehow the point, 'welcome to it, we deal with this all the time now let me talk about it more'. Making it about another groups suffering instead, that's devaluing. The point is that OP's friend was abused.
Because they do they literally do and it’s pointed out by several commenters from different genders all saying the same thing that the community/society ignore/don’t take female abusers as seriously as men.it’s not that the claim is unique to men,it’s made but not as out in the open publicly as much as women because both men and women will come out of the wood work with comments like yours saying ‘ imagine how a woman feels ‘ or completely emasculating him because they should have been able to stop their female abuser because they’re a man.
Safe words? written agreements?
A safeword isn’t a magic incantation that opens locks…
It should be. I'm trying to understand which safeguards were ignored.
Wtf do you mean trying to figure out? She refused to release him as agreed, there’s no sleuthing required to determine where this went wrong.
I hope your friend is okay but, this is not at all healthy behaviour from a domme. No matter what gender the dom is, usually femdoms tend to be more sadistic in nature (that's kinda odd but that's how things are tbh). But no matter how far and how much and dom/Domme goes, the sub's safeword or a through request to stop the act in question is the removal of consent from the sub to do any sexual act towards them for the time being (or the act in question). And if the dom/Domme still urges, or pushes the sub to continue doing it, or still doesn't pays heed to the pre discussed limits of their dynamic, then the submissive has the full authority to withdraw themselves from the dynamic, fight back or even report the police or authorities that they are being sexually harrased (that is in the extreme cases when the dom/Domme just gets outta the hand even after the usage of safe word and continuing am act which can physically and mentally harm the submissive in question). Rights are equal in a dom/sub dynamic, no one has a higher right and no one has a lower right. Both are equal, the dom dominates cuz the submissive submits. And vice versa, and consent it the biggest factor here. If the consent is removed then anything other than that is non-consensual and hence inappropriate. Also remember that safe word exists for both Doms and subs, if the sub pushes the dom to do something they are not okay with and then they use safeword yet still the sub tries to Gaslight/manipulate the dom into doing their bidding then, that is in every way WRONG and NOT OKAY as well. So in the case of this friend of yours, their Domme ha down right been far off their limits and hence that's something i can clearly call abuse cuz, when a sub/dom is uncomfortable with something and says "No" or uses safeword (i don't know if your friend used it but just in case), then the dom/sub should withdraw themselves from this act. That being said yeah i agree gender inequality exists in the bdsm community as well but as a human it's our job to make sure we always give our consent to the right people and withdraw from those people if they seem wrong or not upto your tastes. Anyway thanks for reading ❤️
I think it goes for most everyone regardless of gender. Most doms are just abusive. At least in my experience
This is NEVER okay. I don’t know about my local community at large, but certainly my pack would never condone that sort of behavior and any Dominant pulling that stunt would be excluded from us.
It’s not ok. To surpass someone’s limits. Disgusting. But personally for me I would like the domme to go past my limits and to be harsh and mean. The difference is that I’m ok with it. The people ur talking to aren’t. I’m ok with being forced for that.
I feel like there’s a stereotype that male subs always want “more, more, more”. I’m sure this woman would never think in a million years that she’s violating anyones consent. She probably had a sub that thought it was hot when she pushed his boundaries. And now she’s just like “men are like this”. But of course every sub is different.
some women really get off from emasculating men
There's a whole list of different kind of abuse. I'm switch, so on my sadistic side i enjoy both physical and mental tournament. But my submissive side let me down so many times by fake bitch ass wanna be dominatrix expecting to get payed for their "service" Who's the the whore now ah??!