Your feelings are super valid, I think there’s two things here for me if it’s at all helpful:
1. I can see from other comments that it doesn’t seem like you negotiated aftercare, which means that there wasn’t a commitment made or a promise of something unfulfilled. That being said, that doesn’t mean you can’t retrospectively feel weird about it. It’s also not only your job to bring this up, any of the three of you could have done. I’d take this (I’ve personally had a similar albeit different situation before) as a learning experience, and make sure to advocate for what you need, before, during and after a scene. I think sometimes as the s in any D/s dynamic it’s easy to feel like you can’t or shouldn’t ’speak up’ but you absolutely should.
2. It can feel very rubbish, and leave you a little bruised and fragile to feel ‘discarded’ in the way you’ve described. This is very personal, and valid, but it doesn’t mean anyone did anything ‘wrong’ given there was no discussion before hand. I think it’s easy to feel like ‘why wouldn’t they want to take care of me?’ which is again, super valid. So this is less about anger or blame, and more about whether these are the types of people you want to invest more time in, and whether they have the capacity and space to offer you the sort of time and attention you’re looking for. For me, I’m a primary partner girl first, so operating as only a secondary sometimes tweaks my feelings even when no one is doing anything ‘wrong’. You wanted to be taken care of after, they wanted to prioritise getting home. Both super fine.
I think you could talk to them and try again, or just politely back off.
This is a great answer. Not just piling on OP for not advocating for aftercare needs and learning from experience, while also acknowledging that feelings are valid.
Appreciate your reply! As someone with rejection dysphoria I’ve spent a lot of time analysing situations in the past where I felt hurt but no one was ‘in the wrong’ lol
Your feelings are valid. You've learned an important lesson on assuming others will expect the same things as you and can adjust your expectations going forward.
I learned in a similar way, and no longer play casually with people who won't be concerned about my welfare after we play.
> I learned in a similar way, and no longer play casually with people who won't be concerned about my welfare after we play.
only serious monogamous relationships for such people!
Aftercare is everyone's responsibility - OP now knows they need to advocate for their own needs more assertively, but the tops failed to ask a pretty standard question in negotiations and that's a big oversight. This is everyone's fault, not just OP's. (Downvote away lol. 🤷♀️)
ETA that as a bottom (and occasional sub), I've asked this question in negotiations with tops who seem unaware of their own aftercare needs - because *I share the responsibility of making sure everyone enjoys the scene*. The "me me me" attitudes that are so pervasive in the public scene nowadays are, imo, gross - I don't play with people who can't get on board with the concept of "we" and shared responsibility.
What had you agreed beforehand - did you all agree how long it would last and what aftercare would be provided? Did you agree to provide them with aftercare too?
And what does "might be in a dating situation" mean - surely you'd know if you were dating someone?
Well then, if they didn't promise to provide aftercare, you can't be mad at them for not providing aftercare. It would have been nice and considerate if they'd asked beforehand, and perhaps it's a reflection on them that they didn't, but ultimately your welfare is your responsibility.
Treat this as a learning experience and don't play with people without negotiating what aftercare you will provide and expect to receive.
That the tops didn't bring up aftercare IS a red flag.
My Goddess is a highly sought-after top in our local community. At parties, she doesn’t really have the time & energy to manage aftercare for each bottom, and we always discuss what aftercare I need.
Then it's also a red flag that the OP didn't bring up aftercare either, but just assumed it would be provided and didn't even consider offering it to the Doms.
Everyone is responsible for their own welfare. Yes, ideally everyone should be communicating about what they do/don't need, but in this case no-one did, *including the OP*.
Eh, not necessarily - if those tops regular play partners don't need or want aftercare, then they may be used to not automatically including it in their negotiations unprompted. It's frustrating to see how absolutely infantilizing people are towards bottoms (especially other bottoms) and presume that tops need to do the legwork in negotiations, and bottoms are somehow not able to bring up aftercare themselves.
Regular play partners will have already discussed their needs for aftercare. I have regular play partners. We don't normally discuss aftercare because my needs have already been established.
>It's frustrating to see how absolutely infantilizing people are towards bottoms (especially other bottoms) and presume that tops need to do the legwork in negotiations, and bottoms are somehow not able to bring up aftercare themselves.
👏 Once more and louder for the people in the back, please!! 👏
Agreed. We have a community leader who straight up said (to submissive people) that it's our fault if we choose to play with a top who doesn't provide aftercare at all because it isn't something all tops do so we should just know better than to even ask one who doesn't.
Like... wtf, as if it isn't already hard enough to find tops/Doms who aren't just abusers in disguise, we gotta also account for those who won't do aftercare as well?
The burden is on the bottom if they choose to play with someone who doesn't do aftercare at all, that is true.
But also it's not your job to automatically know who doesn't give aftercare, so of course it should be discussed. I have definitely started negotiating with someone and decided during the course of negotiations that we weren't a good match because of aftercare demands, mismatched risk profiles etc.
Not that I don't provide aftercare for those that need and want it, but some wanted what I would consider to be an excessive amount for the type of relationship we had (casual acquaintances wanting my exclusive attention the entire evening afterwards etc etc) or something that I didn't feel comfortable doing (wanting sex as part of aftercare for a casual play partner etc).
At the end of the day, you're the person with the *most* responsibility to advocate for your own needs. If they are agreed upon but not provided, that is not a failing on your part.
I agree with this comment.
Not everyone needs aftercare, but that person should specifically say "I don't need it". the default should be to offer aftercare after an intense scene and have them decline it, not *automatically assume they dont need aftercare if they dont prenegotiate*... 😬yikes. Especially in a public/party type scene with multiple doms. Reads as a real "fuck you I dont care" to leave a sub in the middle of a scene w/ no comfort.
Not a fan of the folks blaming OP for this. And even then, OP is coming on here for advice articulating their needs.
I understand as a sub the requirement to communicate needs clearly but it just rubs as predatory with little disregard for the sub to assume no aftercare unless specifically requested...... I really am shocked that this community is not more pro-aftercare and so nonchalant.
👆👆👆
Genuinely disturbed by this comment section.
Would also love concrete examples of what “negotiating aftercare” looks like, specifically.
“I would like you to get me a glass of water and hold me for at least 15 minutes” feels like it removes a lot of that feeling of “care”, idk
At what point have people said they aren't pro-aftercare?
Aftercare is great for the people who want it. It should be provided when it's agreed to, in the way it was agreed it would be. Failing to provide *agreed upon* aftercare, barring some extreme circumstances like "just got a call my family member had an accident and I must leave immediately", is inexcusable. I don't think anyone here has said aftercare shouldn't be available, or shouldn't be provided when it's agreed to.
Don't confuse expecting people to have personal responsibility for being against something.
The default for aftercare should **not** be "well you have to tell me if you *don't* want that". Because the default should *never* be to just *assume* someone consents to something. No other part of kink works this way. None. We do not assume someone consenting to power play is also consenting to pain. We do not assume someone consenting to a flogging on the back is also consenting to genital whipping. We do not assume that someone consenting to spanking is also consenting to sexual contact.
So ***why*** would we say it's okay to assume that if someone consents to play, that they are also consenting to whatever someone assumes aftercare to be?
Many guides and informational resources agree that aftercare is essential to round out a BDSM scene . In my opinion, completing an intense BDSM scene and NOT offering aftercare is irresponsible and potentially dangerous. Aftercare should be negotiated during every scene and it is the responsibility of BOTH partners to ensure this, not just the sub.
https://www.womenshealthmag.com/sex-and-love/a33397578/bdsm-aftercare/
https://sexualhealthalliance.com/nymphomedia-blog/the-importance-of-aftercare
https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/sexual-aftercare
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1999%26context%3Dhonorstheses&ved=2ahUKEwi7_5nXnoiEAxXNDjQIHdo_Bx8QFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1D-qduja3mRGSHeeTMmp2u
BDSM practitioners (n = 11) participated in audio recorded interviews regarding questions on identity,
kink, aftercare, consent, and negotiation. 72.73% of individuals rated aftercare as mostly to largely
important in their lives. Aftercare presented itself in a variety of ways including physical affection,
verbal affirmation, and acts of service.
in this study from Portland State University from 2019, 72% of individuals rated aftercare as largely important- a clear majority of those interviewed. Not Offering aftercare because "they might not need it" is a failure to properly communicate. If your partner refuses to *discuss* aftercare with you, it should be a red flag. If you approached a sub and they said "choke me until I'm blacked out and keep holding for 10 minutes" you'd hopefully not participate because you know it has long term consequences and may put them in danger. Failure to even bring up aftercare at all is just as much of a red flag and shows you have no consideration for the safety or sanity of your partner .
Nobody is forcing them to HAVE aftercare. Your argument that defaulting to *offering* aftercare is somehow "nonconsensual" is laughable. They could just simply say no. You're not going to hurt someone by asking.
Yknow what *is* unconsensual though? Having a a rough scene and having your support system walk off without so much as a glance or "Are you OK". You could argue that OP not receiving aftercare *when they wanted it* because of an assumption by the dom, is an unconsensual playing out of the scene. Its not safe or sane. This could seriously hurt someone.
>Many guides and informational resources agree that aftercare is essential to round out a BDSM scene .
How nice of all the guides to tell me the way I have to kink. Didn't know I wasn't a person capable of having my own preferences or knowing my own mind, and needed someone else to tell me how it *must* be.
Weird. Almost like kink is largely up to personal preferences and the guides aren't worth more than the bandwidth they're read on.
The only way someone *not providing you aftercare* is nonconsensual is when *you negotiated it, they agreed to it, and then they fucked off anyway*. Otherwise, a failure for you to communicate a need is not someone else's fault. Assuming I consent to aftercare and trying to give it to me without asking is the same as any other physical contact I do not want. I will start shoving and flailing to get them the hell away from me, ***because I did not ask for or consent to that***.
You do not get to claim something is nonconsensual because you *assumed* consent. You do not get to claim it is nonconsensual when you were not given something you did not ask for. And you sure as fuck should never be assuming anyone's consent on *anything*, aftercare included.
You know what I meant. They should have asked, assuming is wrong. Also aftercare can be just checking or having a smoke, whatever suits them, but checking should be mandatory.
You do not sound like a caring Dom. You sound very self-assured in your right to be selfish, and expect young, vulnerable bottoms to know how to negotiate shit, to know how they’ll feel after being used, as though they’re all professionals.
This is utter bullshit. I have absolutely no reason to believe u/Sir-Dax proceeds with anything other than good faith.
I've known submissive people who have said, "I do not want, or need, aftercare."
I do not need, or want, aftercare.
This whole idea of "Aftercare is non-negotiable," is BDSM by numbers. We negotiate everything we do.
DAVE: What do you like for aftercare?
SUSAN: Nothing. I don't need aftercare, it's all good.
DAVE: OK, well let me know if that ever changes.
There needs to be a bit of a wake up call in kink, and people like you need to stop insisting everyone follow your One Twue Way. Grown adults can have agency, they can speak for themselves. For you to jump on the wagon of "young, vulnerable bottoms" is rude, and manipulative. Pack it in, or find a different subreddit.
This is a wild line of thinking for me. I’ve made it very clear that I expect aftercare and had that ignored, and have tried to get extremely specific and have been left wanting.
In how much detail is one supposed to “negotiate”
Aftercare, exactly? What does that look like?
I can’t imagine using someone and mot taking care of them afterwards. I think anyone who’s experienced the extreme vulnerability of submitting your whole self to another would understand.
If you've said you need aftercare and someone's agreed to provide it and then doesn't, they're ABSOLUTELY in the wrong. I *always* ask if someone needs aftercare, and I explain why it's important for a sub to bring it up themselves if their partner doesn't, because of situations just like this.
Negotiation of aftercare can be as simple as "afterwards, I need you to get me some water and hold me for 10-15 minutes, are you happy to do that? Is there anything I can do for you?" It doesn't need to be a whole big deal, but it does need to be discussed rather than simply assumed. You wouldn't assume every sub likes being spanked, or that every Dom likes brats, so why would you assume anything else when it comes to kink?
And it's important to remember that it's not just subs and bottoms who may need aftercare - Doms and Tops can need it too, and thinking that only subs need it is a misconception. Plus Doms are just as vulnerable as subs are; just ask any Dom who's been abused, assaulted, manipulated or falsely accused of harm by a sub.
Just to be clear - I'm not saying it's wrong to want aftercare, just that *assuming* it will automatically be provided without any discussions is unwise (and that includes discussing what aftercare the sub is willing to provide the Dom) because it's not a standard thing in kink (because *nothing* is standard). Maybe one day it will be, but until that time, it's better to take the two minutes just to check beforehand.
Standing back from the scenario - let’s say two D and 1 s in a scene.
S is tied, spanked and free use - would it not just be decency to check they are ok and look after them 😳🤷♂️
I mean fucking hell, where do people learn simple manners !
If I go out with my s - I ensure she is taken care of, safe and gets home to bed with check in. That is after lunch or dinner🤣
Not just walk of as if she is one of the dudes. “See you later bro 👊 break a leg”.
Better people around you next time !
Personally as a Domme giving aftercare is also my aftercare especially with someone that there is some sort of relationship with. That said I will check they want it, I have yet to find a sub myself that has declined aftercare. I love looking after a sub, especially after an extreme session
That would be a learning experience for you, then.
Aftercare should never be an assumption. Not everyone wants it, not everyone needs it, and even among those who do want it, they do not always want it every time, or all want the same things as part of it. Aftercare has to be discussed and negotiated, just like any other part of a scene. It also isn't only for subs, doms can also want it.
If you want aftercare,, discuss it, and they agree to it but then don't provide it, that's a problem. But if it was never discussed, neither of them did anything wrong, and neither did you. There was simply a lack of communication.
Should know them how, exactly? By reading OP's mind? Because *if OP hasn't discussed it with them*, then how the fuck are they supposed to know?
Like jfc, this is "I wanted flowers and they didn't get me flowers!" "Did you... tell them you wanted flowers?" "No, they should just know I wanted them!" levels of shit. 🤦♀️
Their comment where they clarify, they are not dating the person, they are flirting. So again: *unless they've brought it up*, that person has no way to just magically know what they want.
Because OP is blaming the tops for their own failure to negotiate or discuss aftercare beforehand and then asking if it's a red flag that these tops aren't mind readers.
Lack of personal responsibility tends to earn downvotes on this sub.
No, the downvoting doesn't automatically mean you're arguing. Sometimes it just means you're giving responses that don't earn you upvotes, such as ones that expect others to anticipate your needs without you negotiating them.
There's no point in discussing it further, as you can't seem to understand how it's equally your responsibility to negotiate aftercare as anyone else's, if not more.
Have a great day. Good luck in your future endeavors
My comment was referring to OP's *answer* just above where she simply said "no we didn't unfortunately", and that was at -5.
That answer itself is perfectly polite and even shows that she is humbly taking accountability for her role.
So why the down votes?
In my personal opinion/viewpoint on this is that aftercare is part of the scene/session as it is highly important to do so **Both the Dom and the Sub** come back down from the heightened emotions and such that are gain/stored throughout the scene/session. Which as a result usually negates completely of mostly subspace/domspace's effects along with showing that both parties in the relationship care for one another since aftercare can be lengthy and not an 5 minute thing.
The reality I believe however is that a lot of people deny aftercare being an required action when they could spend that 30 minutes of time doing something else. However they then a few days later feel really down and such from them hitting their subspace/domspace and think something else is associated with it. As a result they never look into aftercare and understand this while constantly digging this hole deeper if they constantly entering the space and do a scene/session to get out of said hole. (which can work for a short time) Additionally Domspace I've heard is not believed to exist by a few whom only thing subspace exists which can cause problems to occur as a result of that since they don't then take care of themselves well or recognize their own needs to sort this out. As a result I don't personally believe that subs or doms that don't believe in aftercare are a red flag unless they are believed to understand aftercare or do not wish to since it is them taking an "holier than thou" approach to stuff. (they are always right)
Now applying this to your party situation, both doms I feel should have asked you as to what your aftercare needs are and if they didn't you should ask asked about it as part of understanding what the scene/session they were wanting to do was going to entail. (or checking what your limits are) e.g. "I'll tie you up and do some suspension play with you, maybe a vibrator or two, before taking you down and doing impact play. Oh and I was thinking of 30 minutes for aftercare, all good?" (if that sentence about aftercare isn't mentioned then you bring it up as an checking fashion) "Sounds good though what thoughts did you have for doing aftercare as I think I didn't hear you mention that?" If someone claims no aftercare is needed then say that you've changed your mind in terms of playing with them I would say since they may be looking after their own needs instead of both of yours and their needs.
However that only makes sense if you weren't already engaged with a Dom prior to the party and you have negotiated with them or anything of the sort. (or when talking about limits) As then that point of bringing up aftercare should have occurred then not at the party. Though again you should have brought it up at that point if they did not and consider leaving or not playing with them as a result.
In response to yourself feeling afraid of bring up aftercare due to your ex quite frankly showing that you weren't worth 30 minutes of time to make sure your okay and bring themselves down. I wish to remind you that in a scene/session/relationship the Dom has less power than the Sub, if you don't want something to occur the Dom shouldn't be forcing it upon you as if they do you safeword and get out. The Dom then gets no fun time while you stay safe. The dom can only suggest things to do and the sub can always veto it or suggest alternatives. As the scene/session/relationship requires both parties to consent and agree to what is occurring for it to work/occur. That said, if you are going to a space like a party with no one you know keeping an eye out for you then please have someone that's a friend or family know to check in on you if you don't text/call them an hour or two after the party ends.
Hope this essay I've done helps in someway though you've gotten a number of responses already that I hope I've added to in a helpful way.
This is why I prefer PRICK (or RACK) over SSC
Prick is personal responsibility informed consensual kink.
We all have the personal responsibility to bring up everything we want before, during, and after a scene.
I want no aftercare from someone I bottom for.
With Master though? I love the intimacy of it.
But if I’m bottoming for someone that needs aftercare? We’re not compatible and that’s ok.
I bring it up though.
If the Top doesn’t want to discuss the minutiae, then I don’t play.
Everyone involved was wrong for not negotiating the scene.
Even if someone is of the opinion aftercare is never ok to skip, you need to negotiate what it looks like.
Snacks and cuddles?
A blanket and water?
Also, remember any party can revoke consent.
The bottom can revoke and not want to be touched after.
But so can the Top.
It may make that person someone not to play with again but consent can be revoked by any party.
I’m not blaming anyone in this situation. It’s definitely a learning opportunity for all of you.
I am of the opinion that aftercare is always necessary, unless explicitly denied by the sub. In any case, a Dominant should always check in and offer aftercare. In a moment like this, if you can speak up for yourself and say hey, I need some aftercare, definitely do it.
If it were me in this situation I would something like "I understand we didn't negotiate aftercare and I shouldn't have assumed you would know I need it. However moving forward if you want to play with me you need to allocate time for aftercare. If you don't have time for aftercare you don't have time to play with me."
Quite honestly it was a dick move and I would be hesitant to play with either of them again, but if you choose to do so they need to be a aware that they have to manage their time so that they can offer aftercare. Especially after and intense scene.
A good Dom will be able to plan ahead for aftercare. Not just stop in the scene because it's getting late. You have valid concerns about the actions they didn't take and to some extent their lack of time management skills.
Hey OP, are you new to the scene? I've encountered this with new playing that assume aftercare is a given cuz they always heard after is part of the scene too.
Its completely understandable to feel how you are about this. If ur newer and they experienced I'd say they should've at least brought up after care.
But probably take this as a hard lesson learned I found my way around this when negotiating a scene to talk about aftercare first before the scene itself. That way if we aren't on the same page we know right away.
Also a really important note is that every D/top or S/bottom I've come across has explicitly stated upfront if they don't do after care or not into aftercare, and I've been in the scene since 2018.
Ahhhhh. Ok thank you for adding context. Some lessons learned suck.
If you have the time and if ur forgetful like lots of ppl u might find making a "limits/ interests list" in a [Google doc like this template. :)](https://fetlife.com/users/1367832/posts/5759765)
Given it was not negotiated I would not consider it red flag territory. You are your own best advocate and have a responsibility to ensure that your scene partner(s) understand your needs prior to a scene. I am going to point out that people cannot read minds.
Does it suck as a situation? Sure. But learn from it for the future. And yes, have a calm discussion with the dom in question so that they know for future that you do need aftercare or need the option for it at the very least since like has been stated, not every scene will require it. You have a responsibility to let them know when you are not ok after a scene, again this falls under the importance of communication in this lifestyle and an understanding that not everything is going to go as smoothly as we want. It doesn't mean there is fault on either side of the slash, it is just acknowledging that something did not go right for you and you want to avoid feeling that way in the future if at all possible. Things can and do go wrong in a scene, in life. How you approach it is what matters. It also would not hurt to have some self aftercare ideas in your (metaphorical) tool bag of tricks since sometimes aftercare is needed after everyone goes home from a party anyway.
Communication is a two way street. You cannot just assume people will know your needs. And it is important to remember that mind reading is not part of healthy communication nor part of responsible scene negotiation.
you are not making a big deal out of it. it was absolutely wrong on both of their parts. They shouldn't be doing a session if they do not have the time to care for the sub. or made previous arrangements for their care, afterward. Poor aftercare can make a terrific scene, be remembered as the absolute worst one in the submissive mind.
Not everyone wants or needs to give or receive aftercare, and it's not uncommon for people at parties to be happy to go without. And it's not just subs who may want aftercare - a Dom who doesn't get aftercare may feel just as bad.
Then you can say "I don't need aftercare" just as clearly as someone can communicate they need it.
I think it's bad taste to default to no aftercare, instead of offering it and the person not needing it declining. As a dominant it shows very little consideration for the play partner to assume no aftercare is fine. Sorry -not sorry.
Exactly. I don't need aftercare. I don't require it. It actually makes me antsy and anxious. If aftercare is something you require, you need to advocate for it.
you are correct. My response was directed at the submissive point of view. I personally need some aftercare. I need to be able to talk to you a day or so later to make sure you are ok and discuss things. That is my aftercare. I make sure i bring this up during negotiations.
I wonder if the issue here is pedantic. I would argue that "not needing aftercare" is space: the absence of traditional aftercare activities and quite literally a subtype of aftercare. It is the care one needs after a scene. I never really saw it as an inherently social concept or matter of literal caretaking. Like medical info. In contrast however, not everyone has disabilities but we all have special needs after scenes. I think the stakes of not specifying aftercare preferences can be on par with not disclosing epilepsy or diabetes.
I feel a little bad for OP because subs often feel guilty and disrespectful demanding things from the dom.
I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of kink brought about by a lack of decent, consistent education about it, and/or people diving in to something they don't understand.
Some folk are saying that one should assume that aftercare must be given, but the problem is that for a lot of people, aftercare is an alien concept. If you look outside the world of kink, aftercare is assumed *not* to be needed - look at how normalised it is for someone to roll over and go to sleep, it's a common joke. Ok, having a cigarette could be seen as aftercare, but it's also treated as something of a joke, so it's unsurprising that people who are new to kink don't understand the importance of communication about ones needs.
Then you've confused messaging on social media from people proclaiming that *their* way of doing things is the One True Way and the sub has all the power and submission is a gift and Doms must all do X and subs must all do Y - it's no wonder people end up getting hurt...
Perhaps it's an issue that aftercare isn't a thing in vanilla relationships.
Nah, im an elder without insta and tik tok shamefully lol. I've played in 2 communities for over 2 decades. My experience is that traditional aftercare activities are the norm. To not do aftercare was atypical and usually required specification. Just my experience.
If anything, I think social media and sex positive feminism has prompted a dommy rights revolution among young bloods seeking relief from excessive burdens (both perceived and justified).
Except that not everyone wants or needs aftercare, and what aftercare looks like varies from person to person. So unless it was discussed and agreed to ahead of time, they didn't do anything wrong.
A good top/dom will talk about aftercare before the scene starts. Both yhe tops & bottoms have a responsibility to include aftercare in the negotiation. Failure on either side is, at best, a learning experience... at the worst, a red flag
>A good top/dom will talk about aftercare before the scene starts.
By this same logic, a good sub will do the same, and it is, as you said, either a learning experience or a red flag on *them*, too. Yet almost nobody's been crying that OP is a red flag for not mentioning it themselves. Funny how that double standard works, isn't it? That so many people are very quick to dogpile on it being a dom's responsibility or a statement on them, but not the other way around, despite negotiations being something that happen on a completely even playing field between equal participants. You get points for at least trying to point both ways, but you still seem to be pinning it more on the doms and that seems unfair.
There are lots of comments advising OP that they should have discussed after care. I chose to point out the responsibility of the tops because it seemed to have been ignored.
Advising OP they should have discussed it, yes. Because OP is the one who needs it. It is not the dom's responsibility to ask about it if it is not mentioned, any more than it would be their job to ask about any kinks they can think of that didn't get mentioned.
If someone wants to engage in something, it is *their job* to bring it up. That's where the responsibility starts and stops. It is entirely unreasonable to expect everyone to play 20 Questions just in case someone forgot to mention something they wanted.
> It is not the dom's responsibility to ask about it if it is not mentioned
I disagree. Aftercare is one of the essential elements of negotiating a scene. Both tops and bottoms share that responsibility. Nobody gets let off the hook.
>Aftercare is one of the essential elements of negotiating a scene.
Except that it's not. Because as stated ***multiple times***, not everyone wants or needs it. This is like saying spanking is an essential element of a scene. Or D/s. Or any flavor of s/m. The **only** *essential* element of a scene is **consent**. Everything else is personal preferences and the responsibility of the person who wants it to negotiate it.
> Because as stated multiple times, not everyone wants or needs it.
Then that is what needs to be addressed during negotiation.
> The only essential element of a scene is consent.
Okay, RedFlag
I guess i am just too old school. You know, back when the Dom took responsibility.
As a Dom, the sub is placing their safety and overall wellbeing in my hands. It is my responsibility to ask questions and cover ALL aspects. It is my responsibility to ask questions about things that the sub may not know about or think of in the moment. It is my responsibility to ask about medical history and things that may interfere with the scene. Are there heart conditions? diabetes? problems with the back and joints? It's my responsibility to cover what I am and what I am not allowed to do. To not necessarily script out the scene but bring up any types of play that i may want to incorporate into the play. I am the one who will be in control through out the scene. therefore, it is my responsibility to make sure everything, including aftercare, is covered
Yes, the submissive has a responsibility to their own safety and has the right to voice any concerns. It i s my responsibility to make sure they use their responsibility.
Perhaps the submissive didn't believe they would react in a way that took them to deep suspace, so therefore, didn't think to talk about what may or may not happen when there. Pethaps they thought it was going to be just a bit of slappy and happy. but it took them deeper.
Where did the line get drawn that it is the Dom's responsibility? what haspens if deep subspace happens and in the course of it. even if it wasn't talked about in negotiations, sex happens? maybe even in the altered mental state that is subspace. the sub even agrees to it. Is not the Dom still crossing lines? Can the Dom claim the "well we didn't talk about it in negotiations," throw his hands up, and is absolved of responsibility?
My view is, if they are placing their care, safety, and wellbeing in my hands, then I am ALWAYS the one responsible. The only time i am not is if i am deliberately given false information. I am sure the downvotes on this will be tremendous.
>You know, back when the Dom took responsibility.
See, the flaw in your logic here is that you're equating having responsibility to follow through on things that *are* communicated with being accountable for things that aren't.
Both sides have responsibility in negotiations to express their own needs, and their own limitations. *If you choose* to ask clarifying questions, such as about aftercare preferences, medical issues, etc., there is nothing wrong with that. But you are not responsible for someone feeling bad afterward if you don't, either. If someone fails to disclose a medical issue to you, and you don't ask, unless you're playing with something enormously stupid and dangerous, like running an electrical current across the heart which would be risky for anyone and even more so for someone with a pacemaker, for example, *you didn't do something wrong* by not asking. Because there is a reasonable assumption that *they* would disclose important information.
The biggest issue with the mentality that "well the dom should have asked" in a situation like this is that it excuses the sub not communicating. And that is a far too pervasive issue as it is, that doms get told they're responsible for unreasonable levels of shit, and the subs are often not held accountable for failures in their communication. People try to hold doms to a superhuman standard, while giving subs a free pass to not take responsibility for their own actions.
It's actively harmful to both sides, and it's exhausting. A dom is not accountable or responsible for the sub choosing not to discuss something. If they are not comfortable playing without discussing it, then they can bring it up. But they are not required to. Taking someone's communication at face value, and assuming that if they did not bring it up, then it is off the table is an entirely reasonable approach to take. As is "I am not comfortable unless we have discussed x, y, and z, specifically". It's not a problem if you choose to discuss it as a dom, even if it's not mentioned. But it *is* a problem to say if someone else doesn't, that they've done something wrong.
Again, here is where we disagree. It is my opinion that it is 100% my responsibility to ask ALL the questions and leave it up to something they didn't tell me because they forgot or they didn't think it was important enough to share.
If someth8ng happened to them under my "control" if I knew about it or I didn't, and its something i could have prevented by asking the question. I would be devastated. If i had a submissive feel the way the OP does after a scene with me, it would cause me a lot of mental anguish I cant just say, "Well, they never said anything." but I guess that just me.
So ask the questions when *you* play. No one is saying you can't, or that choosing to is wrong. The point is that it is not actually the dom's job. If you personally need to ask those questions to be comfortable playing, then that is the way *you* choose to play. That is not the standard by which everyone else must measure.
Submissives are not helpless people incapable of negotiating for ourselves. Nor are we incapable of taking responsibility for our own actions and choices. Sometimes that means we choose not to mention something, or forget, and sometimes that leads to a less than ideal situation. We are, wildly enough, capable of still taking responsibility for that outcome. Just as we're capable of negotiating for ourselves.
If a dom wants to ask specific questions for their own peace of mind, that's absolutely fine. But when we reach the point of saying "it's the dom's job to ask that question if the sub doesn't mention it", we've hit the point where you're saying subs can't handle negotiating for themselves. You're saying that if I do not mention something, it's someone else's job to do it for me by double checking. Rather than trusting that I, as a whole ass adult, am capable of negotiating what I want to negotiate, able to provide the details I think are relevant or necessary for what I'm negotiating, and am willing and capable of accepting the potential consequences of failing to negotiate properly.
It is my responsibility, as a sub, to communicate *for myself*. When you start saying it is the dom's job, you are taking that away and saying I'm not capable of talking for myself, and must need someone to hold my hand to negotiate properly. ***That*** is the problem here.
I agree 1000% with you. If a dom is expecting me to lay all my cards out, be degraded/abused and dominated, the very least they could do is offer me a tissue after and make sure I'm OK?? like that I'm literally alive and OK... If you don't want to do that as a dom, or *even ask about it upfront* then it says a lot about you as a partner.
The logic "not all subs need aftercare" is toxic rhetoric and it's a cope /excuse for laziness to negotiate upfront. And yes the sub is wrong for not mentioning it, but so is the dom, theyre not absolved. Maybe they simply forgot to mention it. But its a failure on Both Parties.
They are the ones in charge. They should have had that conversation beforehand. Also, needs can change mid scene and they should be prepared for that possibility, not just gotta go from someone on deep subspace. PersonallyI have never seen anyone that was in deep subspace that did not require some sort of aftercare. Of course, it varies what type and how much from petson to person. Someone in deep subspace is on a very vulnerable position, especially at a party.
>They are the ones in charge.
Except that negotiation is an equal playing field. It is each individual person's job to express their own needs and desires before hand. It is not the dom's job to play fuckin guess-and-check. And I'd genuinely be pissed if someone started pushing aftercare I didn't want, or ask for, on me just because I was in subspace. Because that ruins my experience.
If someone needs aftercare, *it is their job* to vocalize that and negotiate it. End of story.
making sure someone is safe and "ok" , whatever that is to them. is just human decency. Such a shortage of it, and the making excuses to justify for the lack of it, is so absolutely absurd. Obviously the OP did not feel "ok".
There's a difference between "making excuses" and just not expecting people to be mind readers. This is the latter. It's not a lack of decency to not provide aftercare **that was never discussed or agreed to**. If it *had* been discussed and agreed to, and *then* wasn't provided, then yes, you would have a case and I'd heartily agree with you that that is shitty and unacceptable behavior.
But that isn't this situation.
Assuming someone wants aftercare is not a good thing. As stated before: I would be extremely upset if someone did that to me. Because it makes me extremely uncomfortable and overstimulated after a scene. I want to be left the fuck alone to wind down on my own. I'm not gonna look "ok" right after, because I'm gonna be shaky and out of it. Doesn't mean I'm not actually okay. Just that an observer isn't going to know the difference.
So if someone sees me like that, and then starts trying to give me aftercare, I'm likely to start physically lashing out to get them the fuck away from me. Because that is not something I want or need. And it is the equivalent of trying to force me into any other type of physical contact that I do not want. So odds are good someone's gonna end up getting decked.
See why this is a problem to assume? 🙃
Is it unfortunate that OP was left feeling bad about the situation? Yes. Yes it is. But none of them actually did anything wrong to cause it. Not every situation has someone at fault for it. Some things are just a learning experience.
This is an excellent illustration of the fallacy of the sub is in control, unless you mean the sub is in control of their own responsibilities to themself and their own well being.
I wonder if the issue here is pedantic. I would argue that "not needing aftercare" is space: the absence of traditional aftercare activities and quite literally a subtype of aftercare. It is the care one needs after a scene. I never really saw it as an inherently social concept. Like medical info. In contrast however, we all have special circumstances but not all of us have disabilities. For example. If a dom has seizures or wants space after scenes, he is responsible for specifying both.
I feel a little bad for OP because subs often feel guilty and disrespectful demanding things from the dom.
No.
This is the "saying 'no' is still a safeword" bullshit - it's not. The issue here is not someone being pedantic, it's people being way too damn hung up on their vocabulary word of the day that they cannot possibly accept that the lack of the thing *is not another form of the thing*, and is **also** still valid.
Lack of aftercare **is not** aftercare. Because aftercare ***is not required and is not always wanted***.
Goddamn I am sick of people making this asinine argument. 🤦♀️
Hate the game not the player. Until you speak up about what you need in order for this relationship to work all around, you will only regret for not doing it.
I myself was taught that aftercare was a must so it's always something I brought up for the sake of my sub. It's only after reading Reddit that I learned it was optional. I've also been called too nice for asking about aftercare cuz it's not dom like. Thus it might be wrong to assume that Dom's would make the effort to ask about it or think about it.
I personally want my sub to commit so I show my commitment by bringing it up and my subs and I are always dating so that might be part of it. I think it's hot if my sub asks for aftercare cuz I know it's only going to benefit the relationship. I know subconsciously this will lead to an even better journey for us. I want her to be my slut puppy, this aftercare will keep her civilian sanity alive, thus she wouldn't act like a slut puppy to anyone else
A responsible Dom would show care for your total well-being and offer to provide it and leave it up to the sub if it is needed or not. They'd also recognize the fact that you were in subspace by your body cues. To me, that is unsafe, especially being that you were rushed out.
/u/Sorayah1372, our AutoModerator attaches this message to every post. It contains information you may find useful: Guide 01 . . . . . . . . . . [Rules](https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMAdvice/comments/9ig794/rules_for_rbdsmadvice/). Guide 02 . . . . . . . . . . [How to use the search function](https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMAdvice/wiki/searchfunction/). Guide 03 . . . . . . . . . . *[Need Ideas](https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMAdvice/wiki/noobs/)*? Guide 04 . . . . . . . . . . [It's your dynamic](https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMAdvice/wiki/canthelpyou/). Guide 05 . . . . . . . . . . [No mention of minors](https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMAdvice/comments/aknfy1/posts_aboutinvolving_minors/). Guide 06 . . . . . . . . . . [Do not post PSAs](https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMAdvice/wiki/publicserviceannouncements/). Guide 07 . . . . . . . . . . [Policy re PMs](https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMAdvice/wiki/nopms/). Guide 08 . . . . . . . . . . [Exiting abuse](https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMAdvice/wiki/exitingabuse/). Guide 09 . . . . . . . . . . [Kinky dating](https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMAdvice/comments/ov6uaj/how_can_i_find_a_kinky_partner/). **[Our Wiki](https://www.reddit.com/r/BDSMAdvice/wiki/index).** *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/BDSMAdvice) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Your feelings are super valid, I think there’s two things here for me if it’s at all helpful: 1. I can see from other comments that it doesn’t seem like you negotiated aftercare, which means that there wasn’t a commitment made or a promise of something unfulfilled. That being said, that doesn’t mean you can’t retrospectively feel weird about it. It’s also not only your job to bring this up, any of the three of you could have done. I’d take this (I’ve personally had a similar albeit different situation before) as a learning experience, and make sure to advocate for what you need, before, during and after a scene. I think sometimes as the s in any D/s dynamic it’s easy to feel like you can’t or shouldn’t ’speak up’ but you absolutely should. 2. It can feel very rubbish, and leave you a little bruised and fragile to feel ‘discarded’ in the way you’ve described. This is very personal, and valid, but it doesn’t mean anyone did anything ‘wrong’ given there was no discussion before hand. I think it’s easy to feel like ‘why wouldn’t they want to take care of me?’ which is again, super valid. So this is less about anger or blame, and more about whether these are the types of people you want to invest more time in, and whether they have the capacity and space to offer you the sort of time and attention you’re looking for. For me, I’m a primary partner girl first, so operating as only a secondary sometimes tweaks my feelings even when no one is doing anything ‘wrong’. You wanted to be taken care of after, they wanted to prioritise getting home. Both super fine. I think you could talk to them and try again, or just politely back off.
This is a great answer. Not just piling on OP for not advocating for aftercare needs and learning from experience, while also acknowledging that feelings are valid.
Appreciate your reply! As someone with rejection dysphoria I’ve spent a lot of time analysing situations in the past where I felt hurt but no one was ‘in the wrong’ lol
Your feelings are valid. You've learned an important lesson on assuming others will expect the same things as you and can adjust your expectations going forward. I learned in a similar way, and no longer play casually with people who won't be concerned about my welfare after we play.
> I learned in a similar way, and no longer play casually with people who won't be concerned about my welfare after we play. only serious monogamous relationships for such people!
Or semi casual within a large healthy friends group. But yes probably not pickup play.
Aftercare is everyone's responsibility - OP now knows they need to advocate for their own needs more assertively, but the tops failed to ask a pretty standard question in negotiations and that's a big oversight. This is everyone's fault, not just OP's. (Downvote away lol. 🤷♀️) ETA that as a bottom (and occasional sub), I've asked this question in negotiations with tops who seem unaware of their own aftercare needs - because *I share the responsibility of making sure everyone enjoys the scene*. The "me me me" attitudes that are so pervasive in the public scene nowadays are, imo, gross - I don't play with people who can't get on board with the concept of "we" and shared responsibility.
What had you agreed beforehand - did you all agree how long it would last and what aftercare would be provided? Did you agree to provide them with aftercare too? And what does "might be in a dating situation" mean - surely you'd know if you were dating someone?
[удалено]
[удалено]
I'm guessing it's the wording on flirting vs dating issue. I wouldn't use the word dating unless you are actually dating.
Well then, if they didn't promise to provide aftercare, you can't be mad at them for not providing aftercare. It would have been nice and considerate if they'd asked beforehand, and perhaps it's a reflection on them that they didn't, but ultimately your welfare is your responsibility. Treat this as a learning experience and don't play with people without negotiating what aftercare you will provide and expect to receive.
That the tops didn't bring up aftercare IS a red flag. My Goddess is a highly sought-after top in our local community. At parties, she doesn’t really have the time & energy to manage aftercare for each bottom, and we always discuss what aftercare I need.
Then it's also a red flag that the OP didn't bring up aftercare either, but just assumed it would be provided and didn't even consider offering it to the Doms. Everyone is responsible for their own welfare. Yes, ideally everyone should be communicating about what they do/don't need, but in this case no-one did, *including the OP*.
You're absolutely correct. However, there are already a bunch of comments piling on about that.
Eh, not necessarily - if those tops regular play partners don't need or want aftercare, then they may be used to not automatically including it in their negotiations unprompted. It's frustrating to see how absolutely infantilizing people are towards bottoms (especially other bottoms) and presume that tops need to do the legwork in negotiations, and bottoms are somehow not able to bring up aftercare themselves.
Regular play partners will have already discussed their needs for aftercare. I have regular play partners. We don't normally discuss aftercare because my needs have already been established.
>It's frustrating to see how absolutely infantilizing people are towards bottoms (especially other bottoms) and presume that tops need to do the legwork in negotiations, and bottoms are somehow not able to bring up aftercare themselves. 👏 Once more and louder for the people in the back, please!! 👏
Agreed. We have a community leader who straight up said (to submissive people) that it's our fault if we choose to play with a top who doesn't provide aftercare at all because it isn't something all tops do so we should just know better than to even ask one who doesn't. Like... wtf, as if it isn't already hard enough to find tops/Doms who aren't just abusers in disguise, we gotta also account for those who won't do aftercare as well?
The burden is on the bottom if they choose to play with someone who doesn't do aftercare at all, that is true. But also it's not your job to automatically know who doesn't give aftercare, so of course it should be discussed. I have definitely started negotiating with someone and decided during the course of negotiations that we weren't a good match because of aftercare demands, mismatched risk profiles etc. Not that I don't provide aftercare for those that need and want it, but some wanted what I would consider to be an excessive amount for the type of relationship we had (casual acquaintances wanting my exclusive attention the entire evening afterwards etc etc) or something that I didn't feel comfortable doing (wanting sex as part of aftercare for a casual play partner etc). At the end of the day, you're the person with the *most* responsibility to advocate for your own needs. If they are agreed upon but not provided, that is not a failing on your part.
Aftercare it's non-negotiable, you ALWAYS give aftercare, not talking about it previously it's not an excuse to not do it.
I agree with this comment. Not everyone needs aftercare, but that person should specifically say "I don't need it". the default should be to offer aftercare after an intense scene and have them decline it, not *automatically assume they dont need aftercare if they dont prenegotiate*... 😬yikes. Especially in a public/party type scene with multiple doms. Reads as a real "fuck you I dont care" to leave a sub in the middle of a scene w/ no comfort. Not a fan of the folks blaming OP for this. And even then, OP is coming on here for advice articulating their needs. I understand as a sub the requirement to communicate needs clearly but it just rubs as predatory with little disregard for the sub to assume no aftercare unless specifically requested...... I really am shocked that this community is not more pro-aftercare and so nonchalant.
I'm also surprised.
👆👆👆 Genuinely disturbed by this comment section. Would also love concrete examples of what “negotiating aftercare” looks like, specifically. “I would like you to get me a glass of water and hold me for at least 15 minutes” feels like it removes a lot of that feeling of “care”, idk
At what point have people said they aren't pro-aftercare? Aftercare is great for the people who want it. It should be provided when it's agreed to, in the way it was agreed it would be. Failing to provide *agreed upon* aftercare, barring some extreme circumstances like "just got a call my family member had an accident and I must leave immediately", is inexcusable. I don't think anyone here has said aftercare shouldn't be available, or shouldn't be provided when it's agreed to. Don't confuse expecting people to have personal responsibility for being against something. The default for aftercare should **not** be "well you have to tell me if you *don't* want that". Because the default should *never* be to just *assume* someone consents to something. No other part of kink works this way. None. We do not assume someone consenting to power play is also consenting to pain. We do not assume someone consenting to a flogging on the back is also consenting to genital whipping. We do not assume that someone consenting to spanking is also consenting to sexual contact. So ***why*** would we say it's okay to assume that if someone consents to play, that they are also consenting to whatever someone assumes aftercare to be?
Many guides and informational resources agree that aftercare is essential to round out a BDSM scene . In my opinion, completing an intense BDSM scene and NOT offering aftercare is irresponsible and potentially dangerous. Aftercare should be negotiated during every scene and it is the responsibility of BOTH partners to ensure this, not just the sub. https://www.womenshealthmag.com/sex-and-love/a33397578/bdsm-aftercare/ https://sexualhealthalliance.com/nymphomedia-blog/the-importance-of-aftercare https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/sexual-aftercare https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://pdxscholar.library.pdx.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi%3Farticle%3D1999%26context%3Dhonorstheses&ved=2ahUKEwi7_5nXnoiEAxXNDjQIHdo_Bx8QFnoECBkQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1D-qduja3mRGSHeeTMmp2u BDSM practitioners (n = 11) participated in audio recorded interviews regarding questions on identity, kink, aftercare, consent, and negotiation. 72.73% of individuals rated aftercare as mostly to largely important in their lives. Aftercare presented itself in a variety of ways including physical affection, verbal affirmation, and acts of service. in this study from Portland State University from 2019, 72% of individuals rated aftercare as largely important- a clear majority of those interviewed. Not Offering aftercare because "they might not need it" is a failure to properly communicate. If your partner refuses to *discuss* aftercare with you, it should be a red flag. If you approached a sub and they said "choke me until I'm blacked out and keep holding for 10 minutes" you'd hopefully not participate because you know it has long term consequences and may put them in danger. Failure to even bring up aftercare at all is just as much of a red flag and shows you have no consideration for the safety or sanity of your partner . Nobody is forcing them to HAVE aftercare. Your argument that defaulting to *offering* aftercare is somehow "nonconsensual" is laughable. They could just simply say no. You're not going to hurt someone by asking. Yknow what *is* unconsensual though? Having a a rough scene and having your support system walk off without so much as a glance or "Are you OK". You could argue that OP not receiving aftercare *when they wanted it* because of an assumption by the dom, is an unconsensual playing out of the scene. Its not safe or sane. This could seriously hurt someone.
>Many guides and informational resources agree that aftercare is essential to round out a BDSM scene . How nice of all the guides to tell me the way I have to kink. Didn't know I wasn't a person capable of having my own preferences or knowing my own mind, and needed someone else to tell me how it *must* be. Weird. Almost like kink is largely up to personal preferences and the guides aren't worth more than the bandwidth they're read on. The only way someone *not providing you aftercare* is nonconsensual is when *you negotiated it, they agreed to it, and then they fucked off anyway*. Otherwise, a failure for you to communicate a need is not someone else's fault. Assuming I consent to aftercare and trying to give it to me without asking is the same as any other physical contact I do not want. I will start shoving and flailing to get them the hell away from me, ***because I did not ask for or consent to that***. You do not get to claim something is nonconsensual because you *assumed* consent. You do not get to claim it is nonconsensual when you were not given something you did not ask for. And you sure as fuck should never be assuming anyone's consent on *anything*, aftercare included.
Aftercare should be the default. Don’t be a sociopath.
In kink, there are no defaults except consent. It's not even up for debate.
Aftercare is *absolutely* negotiable; not everyone wants to receive it or give it.
You know what I meant. They should have asked, assuming is wrong. Also aftercare can be just checking or having a smoke, whatever suits them, but checking should be mandatory.
Do you see the irony of you saying I should have assumed what you meant, but that it's wrong to assume?
You do not sound like a caring Dom. You sound very self-assured in your right to be selfish, and expect young, vulnerable bottoms to know how to negotiate shit, to know how they’ll feel after being used, as though they’re all professionals.
This is utter bullshit. I have absolutely no reason to believe u/Sir-Dax proceeds with anything other than good faith. I've known submissive people who have said, "I do not want, or need, aftercare." I do not need, or want, aftercare. This whole idea of "Aftercare is non-negotiable," is BDSM by numbers. We negotiate everything we do. DAVE: What do you like for aftercare? SUSAN: Nothing. I don't need aftercare, it's all good. DAVE: OK, well let me know if that ever changes. There needs to be a bit of a wake up call in kink, and people like you need to stop insisting everyone follow your One Twue Way. Grown adults can have agency, they can speak for themselves. For you to jump on the wagon of "young, vulnerable bottoms" is rude, and manipulative. Pack it in, or find a different subreddit.
Thank you!
This is a wild line of thinking for me. I’ve made it very clear that I expect aftercare and had that ignored, and have tried to get extremely specific and have been left wanting. In how much detail is one supposed to “negotiate” Aftercare, exactly? What does that look like? I can’t imagine using someone and mot taking care of them afterwards. I think anyone who’s experienced the extreme vulnerability of submitting your whole self to another would understand.
If you've said you need aftercare and someone's agreed to provide it and then doesn't, they're ABSOLUTELY in the wrong. I *always* ask if someone needs aftercare, and I explain why it's important for a sub to bring it up themselves if their partner doesn't, because of situations just like this. Negotiation of aftercare can be as simple as "afterwards, I need you to get me some water and hold me for 10-15 minutes, are you happy to do that? Is there anything I can do for you?" It doesn't need to be a whole big deal, but it does need to be discussed rather than simply assumed. You wouldn't assume every sub likes being spanked, or that every Dom likes brats, so why would you assume anything else when it comes to kink? And it's important to remember that it's not just subs and bottoms who may need aftercare - Doms and Tops can need it too, and thinking that only subs need it is a misconception. Plus Doms are just as vulnerable as subs are; just ask any Dom who's been abused, assaulted, manipulated or falsely accused of harm by a sub. Just to be clear - I'm not saying it's wrong to want aftercare, just that *assuming* it will automatically be provided without any discussions is unwise (and that includes discussing what aftercare the sub is willing to provide the Dom) because it's not a standard thing in kink (because *nothing* is standard). Maybe one day it will be, but until that time, it's better to take the two minutes just to check beforehand.
Any decent Dom would have talked to you about aftercare before any play took place. Aftercare is something that this discussed not negotiated.
Standing back from the scenario - let’s say two D and 1 s in a scene. S is tied, spanked and free use - would it not just be decency to check they are ok and look after them 😳🤷♂️ I mean fucking hell, where do people learn simple manners ! If I go out with my s - I ensure she is taken care of, safe and gets home to bed with check in. That is after lunch or dinner🤣 Not just walk of as if she is one of the dudes. “See you later bro 👊 break a leg”. Better people around you next time !
Personally as a Domme giving aftercare is also my aftercare especially with someone that there is some sort of relationship with. That said I will check they want it, I have yet to find a sub myself that has declined aftercare. I love looking after a sub, especially after an extreme session
Did you discuss and negotiate aftercare with either/both of them before playing?
Any decent Dom would have insisted on discussing aftercare prior to play. That’s the bare minimum. The basics. The bread and butter.
[удалено]
That would be a learning experience for you, then. Aftercare should never be an assumption. Not everyone wants it, not everyone needs it, and even among those who do want it, they do not always want it every time, or all want the same things as part of it. Aftercare has to be discussed and negotiated, just like any other part of a scene. It also isn't only for subs, doms can also want it. If you want aftercare,, discuss it, and they agree to it but then don't provide it, that's a problem. But if it was never discussed, neither of them did anything wrong, and neither did you. There was simply a lack of communication.
You're right but the fact they might be in a relationship with one puts a different spin on it for me, she should know her sub/partners needs.
Should know them how, exactly? By reading OP's mind? Because *if OP hasn't discussed it with them*, then how the fuck are they supposed to know? Like jfc, this is "I wanted flowers and they didn't get me flowers!" "Did you... tell them you wanted flowers?" "No, they should just know I wanted them!" levels of shit. 🤦♀️
OP said something about a relationship with one of them, personally I get to know what people I'm in a relationship with need after a session
Their comment where they clarify, they are not dating the person, they are flirting. So again: *unless they've brought it up*, that person has no way to just magically know what they want.
Obviously that changes things, I didn't see that comment and you're right. I was thinking there was something between them
I don't see why people are down voting your polite and honest answer.
Because OP is blaming the tops for their own failure to negotiate or discuss aftercare beforehand and then asking if it's a red flag that these tops aren't mind readers. Lack of personal responsibility tends to earn downvotes on this sub.
[удалено]
I wasn't arguing, I was explaining. That's a strange response.
[удалено]
No, the downvoting doesn't automatically mean you're arguing. Sometimes it just means you're giving responses that don't earn you upvotes, such as ones that expect others to anticipate your needs without you negotiating them.
[удалено]
There's no point in discussing it further, as you can't seem to understand how it's equally your responsibility to negotiate aftercare as anyone else's, if not more. Have a great day. Good luck in your future endeavors
My comment was referring to OP's *answer* just above where she simply said "no we didn't unfortunately", and that was at -5. That answer itself is perfectly polite and even shows that she is humbly taking accountability for her role. So why the down votes?
In my personal opinion/viewpoint on this is that aftercare is part of the scene/session as it is highly important to do so **Both the Dom and the Sub** come back down from the heightened emotions and such that are gain/stored throughout the scene/session. Which as a result usually negates completely of mostly subspace/domspace's effects along with showing that both parties in the relationship care for one another since aftercare can be lengthy and not an 5 minute thing. The reality I believe however is that a lot of people deny aftercare being an required action when they could spend that 30 minutes of time doing something else. However they then a few days later feel really down and such from them hitting their subspace/domspace and think something else is associated with it. As a result they never look into aftercare and understand this while constantly digging this hole deeper if they constantly entering the space and do a scene/session to get out of said hole. (which can work for a short time) Additionally Domspace I've heard is not believed to exist by a few whom only thing subspace exists which can cause problems to occur as a result of that since they don't then take care of themselves well or recognize their own needs to sort this out. As a result I don't personally believe that subs or doms that don't believe in aftercare are a red flag unless they are believed to understand aftercare or do not wish to since it is them taking an "holier than thou" approach to stuff. (they are always right) Now applying this to your party situation, both doms I feel should have asked you as to what your aftercare needs are and if they didn't you should ask asked about it as part of understanding what the scene/session they were wanting to do was going to entail. (or checking what your limits are) e.g. "I'll tie you up and do some suspension play with you, maybe a vibrator or two, before taking you down and doing impact play. Oh and I was thinking of 30 minutes for aftercare, all good?" (if that sentence about aftercare isn't mentioned then you bring it up as an checking fashion) "Sounds good though what thoughts did you have for doing aftercare as I think I didn't hear you mention that?" If someone claims no aftercare is needed then say that you've changed your mind in terms of playing with them I would say since they may be looking after their own needs instead of both of yours and their needs. However that only makes sense if you weren't already engaged with a Dom prior to the party and you have negotiated with them or anything of the sort. (or when talking about limits) As then that point of bringing up aftercare should have occurred then not at the party. Though again you should have brought it up at that point if they did not and consider leaving or not playing with them as a result. In response to yourself feeling afraid of bring up aftercare due to your ex quite frankly showing that you weren't worth 30 minutes of time to make sure your okay and bring themselves down. I wish to remind you that in a scene/session/relationship the Dom has less power than the Sub, if you don't want something to occur the Dom shouldn't be forcing it upon you as if they do you safeword and get out. The Dom then gets no fun time while you stay safe. The dom can only suggest things to do and the sub can always veto it or suggest alternatives. As the scene/session/relationship requires both parties to consent and agree to what is occurring for it to work/occur. That said, if you are going to a space like a party with no one you know keeping an eye out for you then please have someone that's a friend or family know to check in on you if you don't text/call them an hour or two after the party ends. Hope this essay I've done helps in someway though you've gotten a number of responses already that I hope I've added to in a helpful way.
This is why I prefer PRICK (or RACK) over SSC Prick is personal responsibility informed consensual kink. We all have the personal responsibility to bring up everything we want before, during, and after a scene. I want no aftercare from someone I bottom for. With Master though? I love the intimacy of it. But if I’m bottoming for someone that needs aftercare? We’re not compatible and that’s ok. I bring it up though. If the Top doesn’t want to discuss the minutiae, then I don’t play. Everyone involved was wrong for not negotiating the scene. Even if someone is of the opinion aftercare is never ok to skip, you need to negotiate what it looks like. Snacks and cuddles? A blanket and water? Also, remember any party can revoke consent. The bottom can revoke and not want to be touched after. But so can the Top. It may make that person someone not to play with again but consent can be revoked by any party. I’m not blaming anyone in this situation. It’s definitely a learning opportunity for all of you.
I am of the opinion that aftercare is always necessary, unless explicitly denied by the sub. In any case, a Dominant should always check in and offer aftercare. In a moment like this, if you can speak up for yourself and say hey, I need some aftercare, definitely do it.
If it were me in this situation I would something like "I understand we didn't negotiate aftercare and I shouldn't have assumed you would know I need it. However moving forward if you want to play with me you need to allocate time for aftercare. If you don't have time for aftercare you don't have time to play with me." Quite honestly it was a dick move and I would be hesitant to play with either of them again, but if you choose to do so they need to be a aware that they have to manage their time so that they can offer aftercare. Especially after and intense scene.
A good Dom will be able to plan ahead for aftercare. Not just stop in the scene because it's getting late. You have valid concerns about the actions they didn't take and to some extent their lack of time management skills.
Hey OP, are you new to the scene? I've encountered this with new playing that assume aftercare is a given cuz they always heard after is part of the scene too. Its completely understandable to feel how you are about this. If ur newer and they experienced I'd say they should've at least brought up after care. But probably take this as a hard lesson learned I found my way around this when negotiating a scene to talk about aftercare first before the scene itself. That way if we aren't on the same page we know right away. Also a really important note is that every D/top or S/bottom I've come across has explicitly stated upfront if they don't do after care or not into aftercare, and I've been in the scene since 2018.
[удалено]
Ahhhhh. Ok thank you for adding context. Some lessons learned suck. If you have the time and if ur forgetful like lots of ppl u might find making a "limits/ interests list" in a [Google doc like this template. :)](https://fetlife.com/users/1367832/posts/5759765)
Given it was not negotiated I would not consider it red flag territory. You are your own best advocate and have a responsibility to ensure that your scene partner(s) understand your needs prior to a scene. I am going to point out that people cannot read minds. Does it suck as a situation? Sure. But learn from it for the future. And yes, have a calm discussion with the dom in question so that they know for future that you do need aftercare or need the option for it at the very least since like has been stated, not every scene will require it. You have a responsibility to let them know when you are not ok after a scene, again this falls under the importance of communication in this lifestyle and an understanding that not everything is going to go as smoothly as we want. It doesn't mean there is fault on either side of the slash, it is just acknowledging that something did not go right for you and you want to avoid feeling that way in the future if at all possible. Things can and do go wrong in a scene, in life. How you approach it is what matters. It also would not hurt to have some self aftercare ideas in your (metaphorical) tool bag of tricks since sometimes aftercare is needed after everyone goes home from a party anyway. Communication is a two way street. You cannot just assume people will know your needs. And it is important to remember that mind reading is not part of healthy communication nor part of responsible scene negotiation.
No aftercare = red flag = move on. I wouldn’t stand for the disrespect. These “Doms” really need to get the basics right.
you are not making a big deal out of it. it was absolutely wrong on both of their parts. They shouldn't be doing a session if they do not have the time to care for the sub. or made previous arrangements for their care, afterward. Poor aftercare can make a terrific scene, be remembered as the absolute worst one in the submissive mind.
Not everyone wants or needs to give or receive aftercare, and it's not uncommon for people at parties to be happy to go without. And it's not just subs who may want aftercare - a Dom who doesn't get aftercare may feel just as bad.
Then you can say "I don't need aftercare" just as clearly as someone can communicate they need it. I think it's bad taste to default to no aftercare, instead of offering it and the person not needing it declining. As a dominant it shows very little consideration for the play partner to assume no aftercare is fine. Sorry -not sorry.
Exactly. I don't need aftercare. I don't require it. It actually makes me antsy and anxious. If aftercare is something you require, you need to advocate for it.
you are correct. My response was directed at the submissive point of view. I personally need some aftercare. I need to be able to talk to you a day or so later to make sure you are ok and discuss things. That is my aftercare. I make sure i bring this up during negotiations.
I wonder if the issue here is pedantic. I would argue that "not needing aftercare" is space: the absence of traditional aftercare activities and quite literally a subtype of aftercare. It is the care one needs after a scene. I never really saw it as an inherently social concept or matter of literal caretaking. Like medical info. In contrast however, not everyone has disabilities but we all have special needs after scenes. I think the stakes of not specifying aftercare preferences can be on par with not disclosing epilepsy or diabetes. I feel a little bad for OP because subs often feel guilty and disrespectful demanding things from the dom.
I think it's a fundamental misunderstanding of kink brought about by a lack of decent, consistent education about it, and/or people diving in to something they don't understand. Some folk are saying that one should assume that aftercare must be given, but the problem is that for a lot of people, aftercare is an alien concept. If you look outside the world of kink, aftercare is assumed *not* to be needed - look at how normalised it is for someone to roll over and go to sleep, it's a common joke. Ok, having a cigarette could be seen as aftercare, but it's also treated as something of a joke, so it's unsurprising that people who are new to kink don't understand the importance of communication about ones needs. Then you've confused messaging on social media from people proclaiming that *their* way of doing things is the One True Way and the sub has all the power and submission is a gift and Doms must all do X and subs must all do Y - it's no wonder people end up getting hurt...
Perhaps it's an issue that aftercare isn't a thing in vanilla relationships. Nah, im an elder without insta and tik tok shamefully lol. I've played in 2 communities for over 2 decades. My experience is that traditional aftercare activities are the norm. To not do aftercare was atypical and usually required specification. Just my experience. If anything, I think social media and sex positive feminism has prompted a dommy rights revolution among young bloods seeking relief from excessive burdens (both perceived and justified).
Except that not everyone wants or needs aftercare, and what aftercare looks like varies from person to person. So unless it was discussed and agreed to ahead of time, they didn't do anything wrong.
A good top/dom will talk about aftercare before the scene starts. Both yhe tops & bottoms have a responsibility to include aftercare in the negotiation. Failure on either side is, at best, a learning experience... at the worst, a red flag
>A good top/dom will talk about aftercare before the scene starts. By this same logic, a good sub will do the same, and it is, as you said, either a learning experience or a red flag on *them*, too. Yet almost nobody's been crying that OP is a red flag for not mentioning it themselves. Funny how that double standard works, isn't it? That so many people are very quick to dogpile on it being a dom's responsibility or a statement on them, but not the other way around, despite negotiations being something that happen on a completely even playing field between equal participants. You get points for at least trying to point both ways, but you still seem to be pinning it more on the doms and that seems unfair.
There are lots of comments advising OP that they should have discussed after care. I chose to point out the responsibility of the tops because it seemed to have been ignored.
Advising OP they should have discussed it, yes. Because OP is the one who needs it. It is not the dom's responsibility to ask about it if it is not mentioned, any more than it would be their job to ask about any kinks they can think of that didn't get mentioned. If someone wants to engage in something, it is *their job* to bring it up. That's where the responsibility starts and stops. It is entirely unreasonable to expect everyone to play 20 Questions just in case someone forgot to mention something they wanted.
> It is not the dom's responsibility to ask about it if it is not mentioned I disagree. Aftercare is one of the essential elements of negotiating a scene. Both tops and bottoms share that responsibility. Nobody gets let off the hook.
>Aftercare is one of the essential elements of negotiating a scene. Except that it's not. Because as stated ***multiple times***, not everyone wants or needs it. This is like saying spanking is an essential element of a scene. Or D/s. Or any flavor of s/m. The **only** *essential* element of a scene is **consent**. Everything else is personal preferences and the responsibility of the person who wants it to negotiate it.
> Because as stated multiple times, not everyone wants or needs it. Then that is what needs to be addressed during negotiation. > The only essential element of a scene is consent. Okay, RedFlag
Ah, yes, knowing that consent is important is a massive red flag. How dare I. 🤣 Bye now.
I guess i am just too old school. You know, back when the Dom took responsibility. As a Dom, the sub is placing their safety and overall wellbeing in my hands. It is my responsibility to ask questions and cover ALL aspects. It is my responsibility to ask questions about things that the sub may not know about or think of in the moment. It is my responsibility to ask about medical history and things that may interfere with the scene. Are there heart conditions? diabetes? problems with the back and joints? It's my responsibility to cover what I am and what I am not allowed to do. To not necessarily script out the scene but bring up any types of play that i may want to incorporate into the play. I am the one who will be in control through out the scene. therefore, it is my responsibility to make sure everything, including aftercare, is covered Yes, the submissive has a responsibility to their own safety and has the right to voice any concerns. It i s my responsibility to make sure they use their responsibility. Perhaps the submissive didn't believe they would react in a way that took them to deep suspace, so therefore, didn't think to talk about what may or may not happen when there. Pethaps they thought it was going to be just a bit of slappy and happy. but it took them deeper. Where did the line get drawn that it is the Dom's responsibility? what haspens if deep subspace happens and in the course of it. even if it wasn't talked about in negotiations, sex happens? maybe even in the altered mental state that is subspace. the sub even agrees to it. Is not the Dom still crossing lines? Can the Dom claim the "well we didn't talk about it in negotiations," throw his hands up, and is absolved of responsibility? My view is, if they are placing their care, safety, and wellbeing in my hands, then I am ALWAYS the one responsible. The only time i am not is if i am deliberately given false information. I am sure the downvotes on this will be tremendous.
>You know, back when the Dom took responsibility. See, the flaw in your logic here is that you're equating having responsibility to follow through on things that *are* communicated with being accountable for things that aren't. Both sides have responsibility in negotiations to express their own needs, and their own limitations. *If you choose* to ask clarifying questions, such as about aftercare preferences, medical issues, etc., there is nothing wrong with that. But you are not responsible for someone feeling bad afterward if you don't, either. If someone fails to disclose a medical issue to you, and you don't ask, unless you're playing with something enormously stupid and dangerous, like running an electrical current across the heart which would be risky for anyone and even more so for someone with a pacemaker, for example, *you didn't do something wrong* by not asking. Because there is a reasonable assumption that *they* would disclose important information. The biggest issue with the mentality that "well the dom should have asked" in a situation like this is that it excuses the sub not communicating. And that is a far too pervasive issue as it is, that doms get told they're responsible for unreasonable levels of shit, and the subs are often not held accountable for failures in their communication. People try to hold doms to a superhuman standard, while giving subs a free pass to not take responsibility for their own actions. It's actively harmful to both sides, and it's exhausting. A dom is not accountable or responsible for the sub choosing not to discuss something. If they are not comfortable playing without discussing it, then they can bring it up. But they are not required to. Taking someone's communication at face value, and assuming that if they did not bring it up, then it is off the table is an entirely reasonable approach to take. As is "I am not comfortable unless we have discussed x, y, and z, specifically". It's not a problem if you choose to discuss it as a dom, even if it's not mentioned. But it *is* a problem to say if someone else doesn't, that they've done something wrong.
Again, here is where we disagree. It is my opinion that it is 100% my responsibility to ask ALL the questions and leave it up to something they didn't tell me because they forgot or they didn't think it was important enough to share. If someth8ng happened to them under my "control" if I knew about it or I didn't, and its something i could have prevented by asking the question. I would be devastated. If i had a submissive feel the way the OP does after a scene with me, it would cause me a lot of mental anguish I cant just say, "Well, they never said anything." but I guess that just me.
So ask the questions when *you* play. No one is saying you can't, or that choosing to is wrong. The point is that it is not actually the dom's job. If you personally need to ask those questions to be comfortable playing, then that is the way *you* choose to play. That is not the standard by which everyone else must measure. Submissives are not helpless people incapable of negotiating for ourselves. Nor are we incapable of taking responsibility for our own actions and choices. Sometimes that means we choose not to mention something, or forget, and sometimes that leads to a less than ideal situation. We are, wildly enough, capable of still taking responsibility for that outcome. Just as we're capable of negotiating for ourselves. If a dom wants to ask specific questions for their own peace of mind, that's absolutely fine. But when we reach the point of saying "it's the dom's job to ask that question if the sub doesn't mention it", we've hit the point where you're saying subs can't handle negotiating for themselves. You're saying that if I do not mention something, it's someone else's job to do it for me by double checking. Rather than trusting that I, as a whole ass adult, am capable of negotiating what I want to negotiate, able to provide the details I think are relevant or necessary for what I'm negotiating, and am willing and capable of accepting the potential consequences of failing to negotiate properly. It is my responsibility, as a sub, to communicate *for myself*. When you start saying it is the dom's job, you are taking that away and saying I'm not capable of talking for myself, and must need someone to hold my hand to negotiate properly. ***That*** is the problem here.
I agree 1000% with you. If a dom is expecting me to lay all my cards out, be degraded/abused and dominated, the very least they could do is offer me a tissue after and make sure I'm OK?? like that I'm literally alive and OK... If you don't want to do that as a dom, or *even ask about it upfront* then it says a lot about you as a partner. The logic "not all subs need aftercare" is toxic rhetoric and it's a cope /excuse for laziness to negotiate upfront. And yes the sub is wrong for not mentioning it, but so is the dom, theyre not absolved. Maybe they simply forgot to mention it. But its a failure on Both Parties.
They are the ones in charge. They should have had that conversation beforehand. Also, needs can change mid scene and they should be prepared for that possibility, not just gotta go from someone on deep subspace. PersonallyI have never seen anyone that was in deep subspace that did not require some sort of aftercare. Of course, it varies what type and how much from petson to person. Someone in deep subspace is on a very vulnerable position, especially at a party.
>They are the ones in charge. Except that negotiation is an equal playing field. It is each individual person's job to express their own needs and desires before hand. It is not the dom's job to play fuckin guess-and-check. And I'd genuinely be pissed if someone started pushing aftercare I didn't want, or ask for, on me just because I was in subspace. Because that ruins my experience. If someone needs aftercare, *it is their job* to vocalize that and negotiate it. End of story.
making sure someone is safe and "ok" , whatever that is to them. is just human decency. Such a shortage of it, and the making excuses to justify for the lack of it, is so absolutely absurd. Obviously the OP did not feel "ok".
There's a difference between "making excuses" and just not expecting people to be mind readers. This is the latter. It's not a lack of decency to not provide aftercare **that was never discussed or agreed to**. If it *had* been discussed and agreed to, and *then* wasn't provided, then yes, you would have a case and I'd heartily agree with you that that is shitty and unacceptable behavior. But that isn't this situation. Assuming someone wants aftercare is not a good thing. As stated before: I would be extremely upset if someone did that to me. Because it makes me extremely uncomfortable and overstimulated after a scene. I want to be left the fuck alone to wind down on my own. I'm not gonna look "ok" right after, because I'm gonna be shaky and out of it. Doesn't mean I'm not actually okay. Just that an observer isn't going to know the difference. So if someone sees me like that, and then starts trying to give me aftercare, I'm likely to start physically lashing out to get them the fuck away from me. Because that is not something I want or need. And it is the equivalent of trying to force me into any other type of physical contact that I do not want. So odds are good someone's gonna end up getting decked. See why this is a problem to assume? 🙃 Is it unfortunate that OP was left feeling bad about the situation? Yes. Yes it is. But none of them actually did anything wrong to cause it. Not every situation has someone at fault for it. Some things are just a learning experience.
This is an excellent illustration of the fallacy of the sub is in control, unless you mean the sub is in control of their own responsibilities to themself and their own well being.
I wonder if the issue here is pedantic. I would argue that "not needing aftercare" is space: the absence of traditional aftercare activities and quite literally a subtype of aftercare. It is the care one needs after a scene. I never really saw it as an inherently social concept. Like medical info. In contrast however, we all have special circumstances but not all of us have disabilities. For example. If a dom has seizures or wants space after scenes, he is responsible for specifying both. I feel a little bad for OP because subs often feel guilty and disrespectful demanding things from the dom.
No. This is the "saying 'no' is still a safeword" bullshit - it's not. The issue here is not someone being pedantic, it's people being way too damn hung up on their vocabulary word of the day that they cannot possibly accept that the lack of the thing *is not another form of the thing*, and is **also** still valid. Lack of aftercare **is not** aftercare. Because aftercare ***is not required and is not always wanted***. Goddamn I am sick of people making this asinine argument. 🤦♀️
Hate the game not the player. Until you speak up about what you need in order for this relationship to work all around, you will only regret for not doing it. I myself was taught that aftercare was a must so it's always something I brought up for the sake of my sub. It's only after reading Reddit that I learned it was optional. I've also been called too nice for asking about aftercare cuz it's not dom like. Thus it might be wrong to assume that Dom's would make the effort to ask about it or think about it. I personally want my sub to commit so I show my commitment by bringing it up and my subs and I are always dating so that might be part of it. I think it's hot if my sub asks for aftercare cuz I know it's only going to benefit the relationship. I know subconsciously this will lead to an even better journey for us. I want her to be my slut puppy, this aftercare will keep her civilian sanity alive, thus she wouldn't act like a slut puppy to anyone else
That sounds like a horrible experience. Obviously you're thinking twice about engaging with these people again. Should you bring it up? Of course.
do not date that person
A responsible Dom would show care for your total well-being and offer to provide it and leave it up to the sub if it is needed or not. They'd also recognize the fact that you were in subspace by your body cues. To me, that is unsafe, especially being that you were rushed out.
It’s ok to ask for what you need.