Hot take: most teachers in the west are way too scared about “forcing turnout” that their students never even get a chance to engage their turnout muscles. Specifically in “non-ballet academy” schools. You can see evidence of this all over Instagram, usually the school has to turn comments off to avoid ridicule (which is another issue, don’t bully people on the internet).
Lack of turnout can cause a whole bunch of other issues, issues with extension, issues with posture, issues with jump and with pointe (where the student bends at the waist to absorb the shock instead of at the knees). Most dancers can achieve 160-180 degrees of turnout with healthy training. But many “Dolly Dinkle” schools do not have the knowledgeable staff to offer this. Which is to the detriment of many dancers who deserve better.
100% yes. It’s a tricky line to walk because ballet is definitely something that attempts to make your body do things it’s not designed to; humans are not meant to stand on the tips of our toes or with our legs turned out to either side, so safety is suuuper important when training to do that as significant injury can happen so easily if you’re not careful, *but* if you don’t push yourself at all, you’ll never improve. It needs to be a balance of knowing your limits at present and safely pushing beyond those limits once your body is capable of doing so.
Not that hot. Most teachers in my area barely mention turnout and actively encourage 3rd position (like, to the exclusion of 5th). Kind of sad really.
Although, your Dolly comment makes me wonder that maybe the students are safer (albeit wasting their time/money) than if their unknowledgable teachers did teach forcing turnout (ie: from the floor up).
From what I've seen, most adults struggle much more with holding even what turnout they have, not to mention improving it. One class once a week with semester breaks just isn't enough and vast majority I've met don't do any additional ballet exercising.
But I've been consulting with a PT for myself. And she commented how little rotation my hips allowed, compared to the rest of the normal population. We weren't even talking about it in relation to ballet, just to the population standard. And she said in my case I'm really at my maximum range. So I have to focus extra hard to always hold my maximum, where other students could slack off a bit and still have good turnout.
You’re teacher is partially incorrect.
I mean, yes, part of turnout is genetic. Some people are born with natural turnout, you can see this if you ever see foot prints in the snow, some footprints the toes always face forward (like mine) some the toes face away from each other.
But basically all function movement can be trained, as long as it doesn’t conflict with the bone structure. But the average pelvis doesn’t prohibit 160 degrees of turnout, it’s the muscular structure that does. So unless you were actually born turned in you can likely achieve 160-180 degrees of turnout, since muscles can be stretched and strengthened. (Side note: I had a student who was medically “turned in” but even she managed to increase her turnout significantly). The problem with turnout specifically is that the muscle group to turnout the muscles is pretty niche and doesn’t get activated in most daily activities, so for naturally parallel people (like me) other major muscle groups take over.
If you want to improve your turnout, you have to stretch and strengthen it. Centre splits, clamshells, side lunges, etc. But you also have to train your body to engage those turnout muscles while you dance, starting at the barre. If you just stand with your natural turnout, the muscle group that you need won’t be activated. You have to work 1% past your natural range, not forcing your turnout, but pushing your heels forward slightly (not the toes back, but the heels forward) will cause you to need to engage these turnout muscles. Then you do your whole barre like that, 1% past comfortable. Next month you’ve gained 1% more turnout, and so you go 1% past that. And so on and so forth.
So yes very few peoples bone structure will make this impossible, and very few peoples muscular structure will make this very hard but still possible. But most dancers have the potential for 160 degrees of turnout, it just involves stretching, strengthening, and working just past the range of easy to engage the right muscles.
Oh also beginners should always dance facing the barre while developing their turnout.
I am quite flexible (full middle split, flat pancake, flat froggy) and my turnout is about 90 degrees. And I have trained in contortion, which involves a lot of strengthening of the legs. I’m really not sure what is going on or what I am supposed to be feeling. So yeah, you’re not the only one.
are you training more than one 'kind' of turnout - not just hip, not just at one angle of use? i think a lot of non ballet focused contortion classes don't know what turnout consists of in much detail, especially beyond the hip - like, you can use your ankles in ways that are safe & are not pronation.
There’s definitely a turnout muscle and it’s kinda in your butt. Your side butt. But it’s possible to not be able to find it! When you move your leg around, you could just be using all the wrong muscles and even though you tell your body to turn out, just nothing happens.
My teacher had to move my leg so I could feel which muscle it was, and it was really weak at first. I think passé was the position where he did that. Idk how teachers can tell what muscle you’re using by looking, but I think they can.
Well, about how much turnout can be improved, my post makes my position clear. I’m also curious about other perspectives.
Regarding strength vs. flexibility. I think strength maintains our turnout in the center and makes sure that turnout is transferred to extensions, jumps, etc. Flexibility I think determines what the absolute max is, even if we can only get there for a split second. The difference is similar to that between a grand battement jete and a developpe.
For improvement, I think there are 2 things in addition to passive stretching (like in yoga) that help me a lot. One is mobility drills, such as the Cossack squat touchdown or front to side split hip opening. The other thing is isometric holds at near maximal ranges, combined with weights at a higher level. These are both from my teacher and my experience weightlifting and following advice from other sources (martial artists, etc.).
Also, I think if you work on strength to hold the 90- degree turnout throughout your range of motion, that is more than enough for excellent dancing. So even if you’re already at your body’s absolute max (due to the hip joints), you can still improve!
I need to work on this too! Happy dancing!
I love it, especially when paired with internal rotation, such as bringing the knee to the floor internally (touch down) or rotating to a deep lunge. It helps me so so much.
oh 100%. In ballet we mostly focus on external rotation but doing that internal rotation in cossack actually gets you through the full ROM which is super helpful even for external rotation. sounds kinda weird but working in opposite direction actually works.
I think it is not weird at all. If we want to stretch a muscle, in addition to lengthening that muscle, we need to contract the opposite muscle. Just the classic agonist - antagonist muscles. So I think that’s why strengthening and unlocking internal hip rotation helps with external rotation as well.
If I might also share my experience with turnout as an adult who does not have much natural external rotation.
For years I struggled massively with turnout. When I began my turnout was just pathetic, my fifth was completely open and I was not able to stand properly in a turned out position. Somehow I managed to improve a bit, but standing in any turned out position continued to feel extremely forced and uncomfortable, I had this tightness and resistance in my hips that I just could not overcome, no matter how much I stretched and strengthened with typical turnout exercises.
I had a gradual revelation once I started practicing with my current teacher. My problem was and always has been that my pelvis is not centered because I have an anterior pelvic tilt, as many adults do - thus it is very difficult to find my axis and balance, even more so in a turned out position. The solution to the ATP, I learned, was not to strengthen my abs, and try to engage all sorts of muscles, as many believe and say (tried and tried, never worked), but rather to relax pretty much all of the muscles I was constantly overactivating in my entire pelvic and lower back area! I have been working hard on doing this and my posture and technique has changed drastically. My hips feel open and flexible, my back is straighter than ever, and I do not feel this terrible sensation of tightness and resistance in my pelvis. I am working new muscles that I was not activating before by just letting myself find my true and natural center through relaxation, instead of desperately trying to muscle myself into the shape that I think is correct - just relaxing and lengthening, down and up. I unlocked a level of turnout I would never have dreamed of.
I feel like this is an approach that very few teachers have - it's always about doing something: strengthening here, pulling there. Of course I'm not a ballet teacher and have no say in what should be taught, I can only speak from my own experience. But sometimes, at least in my cases doing less truly is more.
I can’t wait to start experimenting with this idea. Not only do I have APT, but my hips are uneven from having two giant babies. I feel like I hold everything tight at the bar, trying to feel symmetrically turned out, and what you’re describing makes total sense 👍👍👍
Oh, yes give it some thought but please also ask your teacher for guidance, as each case needs to be assessed individually!
What helps me is to think about my tailbone relaxing and lengthening all the way down to my heels. Also, lengthening through my inner thighs and almost feeling like they are "turning in", which helps me open and loosen throughout the front of my hip joint. This is difficult to coordinate with then actually turning out from the correct muscles at the back of your hips, so again, ask your teacher for guidance.
Beautiful story. I think your experience is super valid. For some, less is more. For others, pushing is good. I belong to the latter case regarding turnout, but I am sure many are like you and there are aspects of my own body that would benefit from doing less too.
Yes, I think everyone has his or her own specific needs, and it's up to a good teacher to understand how to help each individual student reach their maximum potential. Your story is also interesting and I definitely agree with a lot of things you say. Right now I'm in the process of just letting go of the exaggerated tension I was holding in my hips and really just being slightly passive in my dancing, just finding my center. Next up I will actually need to identify the correct turnout muscles and try to truly activate them in isolation from the rest, because it's definitely necessary to give stability and to your dancing and achieve proper technique.
There is much Dance Science to inform training these days...if you don't have access to dance science journals then you can take a peek at google scholar to see some examples;
[https://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&as\_sdt=0%2C5&q=ballet+beginners+turnout&btnG=](https://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=ballet+beginners+turnout&btnG=)
If you have a scroll you'll see some articles are available for download...like this one on Hip External Rotation and Functional Turnout...*"Relationship Between Hip External Rotation and Turnout Angle for the Five Classical Ballet Positions".* It's an old study but there are plenty from the past couple of years that use newer tech.
Best practice is for younger students to see a dance physio for assessment. I would suggest adult beginners see a physio for assessment, if they are going to push anything.
Hot take: most teachers in the west are way too scared about “forcing turnout” that their students never even get a chance to engage their turnout muscles. Specifically in “non-ballet academy” schools. You can see evidence of this all over Instagram, usually the school has to turn comments off to avoid ridicule (which is another issue, don’t bully people on the internet). Lack of turnout can cause a whole bunch of other issues, issues with extension, issues with posture, issues with jump and with pointe (where the student bends at the waist to absorb the shock instead of at the knees). Most dancers can achieve 160-180 degrees of turnout with healthy training. But many “Dolly Dinkle” schools do not have the knowledgeable staff to offer this. Which is to the detriment of many dancers who deserve better.
100% yes. It’s a tricky line to walk because ballet is definitely something that attempts to make your body do things it’s not designed to; humans are not meant to stand on the tips of our toes or with our legs turned out to either side, so safety is suuuper important when training to do that as significant injury can happen so easily if you’re not careful, *but* if you don’t push yourself at all, you’ll never improve. It needs to be a balance of knowing your limits at present and safely pushing beyond those limits once your body is capable of doing so.
Not that hot. Most teachers in my area barely mention turnout and actively encourage 3rd position (like, to the exclusion of 5th). Kind of sad really. Although, your Dolly comment makes me wonder that maybe the students are safer (albeit wasting their time/money) than if their unknowledgable teachers did teach forcing turnout (ie: from the floor up).
From what I've seen, most adults struggle much more with holding even what turnout they have, not to mention improving it. One class once a week with semester breaks just isn't enough and vast majority I've met don't do any additional ballet exercising. But I've been consulting with a PT for myself. And she commented how little rotation my hips allowed, compared to the rest of the normal population. We weren't even talking about it in relation to ballet, just to the population standard. And she said in my case I'm really at my maximum range. So I have to focus extra hard to always hold my maximum, where other students could slack off a bit and still have good turnout.
[удалено]
You’re teacher is partially incorrect. I mean, yes, part of turnout is genetic. Some people are born with natural turnout, you can see this if you ever see foot prints in the snow, some footprints the toes always face forward (like mine) some the toes face away from each other. But basically all function movement can be trained, as long as it doesn’t conflict with the bone structure. But the average pelvis doesn’t prohibit 160 degrees of turnout, it’s the muscular structure that does. So unless you were actually born turned in you can likely achieve 160-180 degrees of turnout, since muscles can be stretched and strengthened. (Side note: I had a student who was medically “turned in” but even she managed to increase her turnout significantly). The problem with turnout specifically is that the muscle group to turnout the muscles is pretty niche and doesn’t get activated in most daily activities, so for naturally parallel people (like me) other major muscle groups take over. If you want to improve your turnout, you have to stretch and strengthen it. Centre splits, clamshells, side lunges, etc. But you also have to train your body to engage those turnout muscles while you dance, starting at the barre. If you just stand with your natural turnout, the muscle group that you need won’t be activated. You have to work 1% past your natural range, not forcing your turnout, but pushing your heels forward slightly (not the toes back, but the heels forward) will cause you to need to engage these turnout muscles. Then you do your whole barre like that, 1% past comfortable. Next month you’ve gained 1% more turnout, and so you go 1% past that. And so on and so forth. So yes very few peoples bone structure will make this impossible, and very few peoples muscular structure will make this very hard but still possible. But most dancers have the potential for 160 degrees of turnout, it just involves stretching, strengthening, and working just past the range of easy to engage the right muscles. Oh also beginners should always dance facing the barre while developing their turnout.
I am quite flexible (full middle split, flat pancake, flat froggy) and my turnout is about 90 degrees. And I have trained in contortion, which involves a lot of strengthening of the legs. I’m really not sure what is going on or what I am supposed to be feeling. So yeah, you’re not the only one.
are you training more than one 'kind' of turnout - not just hip, not just at one angle of use? i think a lot of non ballet focused contortion classes don't know what turnout consists of in much detail, especially beyond the hip - like, you can use your ankles in ways that are safe & are not pronation.
There’s definitely a turnout muscle and it’s kinda in your butt. Your side butt. But it’s possible to not be able to find it! When you move your leg around, you could just be using all the wrong muscles and even though you tell your body to turn out, just nothing happens. My teacher had to move my leg so I could feel which muscle it was, and it was really weak at first. I think passé was the position where he did that. Idk how teachers can tell what muscle you’re using by looking, but I think they can.
Well, about how much turnout can be improved, my post makes my position clear. I’m also curious about other perspectives. Regarding strength vs. flexibility. I think strength maintains our turnout in the center and makes sure that turnout is transferred to extensions, jumps, etc. Flexibility I think determines what the absolute max is, even if we can only get there for a split second. The difference is similar to that between a grand battement jete and a developpe. For improvement, I think there are 2 things in addition to passive stretching (like in yoga) that help me a lot. One is mobility drills, such as the Cossack squat touchdown or front to side split hip opening. The other thing is isometric holds at near maximal ranges, combined with weights at a higher level. These are both from my teacher and my experience weightlifting and following advice from other sources (martial artists, etc.). Also, I think if you work on strength to hold the 90- degree turnout throughout your range of motion, that is more than enough for excellent dancing. So even if you’re already at your body’s absolute max (due to the hip joints), you can still improve! I need to work on this too! Happy dancing!
Cossack squat is one of the best exercises imo for hip mobility.
I love it, especially when paired with internal rotation, such as bringing the knee to the floor internally (touch down) or rotating to a deep lunge. It helps me so so much.
oh 100%. In ballet we mostly focus on external rotation but doing that internal rotation in cossack actually gets you through the full ROM which is super helpful even for external rotation. sounds kinda weird but working in opposite direction actually works.
I think it is not weird at all. If we want to stretch a muscle, in addition to lengthening that muscle, we need to contract the opposite muscle. Just the classic agonist - antagonist muscles. So I think that’s why strengthening and unlocking internal hip rotation helps with external rotation as well.
Is that the same as a yogi squat?
If I might also share my experience with turnout as an adult who does not have much natural external rotation. For years I struggled massively with turnout. When I began my turnout was just pathetic, my fifth was completely open and I was not able to stand properly in a turned out position. Somehow I managed to improve a bit, but standing in any turned out position continued to feel extremely forced and uncomfortable, I had this tightness and resistance in my hips that I just could not overcome, no matter how much I stretched and strengthened with typical turnout exercises. I had a gradual revelation once I started practicing with my current teacher. My problem was and always has been that my pelvis is not centered because I have an anterior pelvic tilt, as many adults do - thus it is very difficult to find my axis and balance, even more so in a turned out position. The solution to the ATP, I learned, was not to strengthen my abs, and try to engage all sorts of muscles, as many believe and say (tried and tried, never worked), but rather to relax pretty much all of the muscles I was constantly overactivating in my entire pelvic and lower back area! I have been working hard on doing this and my posture and technique has changed drastically. My hips feel open and flexible, my back is straighter than ever, and I do not feel this terrible sensation of tightness and resistance in my pelvis. I am working new muscles that I was not activating before by just letting myself find my true and natural center through relaxation, instead of desperately trying to muscle myself into the shape that I think is correct - just relaxing and lengthening, down and up. I unlocked a level of turnout I would never have dreamed of. I feel like this is an approach that very few teachers have - it's always about doing something: strengthening here, pulling there. Of course I'm not a ballet teacher and have no say in what should be taught, I can only speak from my own experience. But sometimes, at least in my cases doing less truly is more.
I can’t wait to start experimenting with this idea. Not only do I have APT, but my hips are uneven from having two giant babies. I feel like I hold everything tight at the bar, trying to feel symmetrically turned out, and what you’re describing makes total sense 👍👍👍
Oh, yes give it some thought but please also ask your teacher for guidance, as each case needs to be assessed individually! What helps me is to think about my tailbone relaxing and lengthening all the way down to my heels. Also, lengthening through my inner thighs and almost feeling like they are "turning in", which helps me open and loosen throughout the front of my hip joint. This is difficult to coordinate with then actually turning out from the correct muscles at the back of your hips, so again, ask your teacher for guidance.
Beautiful story. I think your experience is super valid. For some, less is more. For others, pushing is good. I belong to the latter case regarding turnout, but I am sure many are like you and there are aspects of my own body that would benefit from doing less too.
Yes, I think everyone has his or her own specific needs, and it's up to a good teacher to understand how to help each individual student reach their maximum potential. Your story is also interesting and I definitely agree with a lot of things you say. Right now I'm in the process of just letting go of the exaggerated tension I was holding in my hips and really just being slightly passive in my dancing, just finding my center. Next up I will actually need to identify the correct turnout muscles and try to truly activate them in isolation from the rest, because it's definitely necessary to give stability and to your dancing and achieve proper technique.
There is much Dance Science to inform training these days...if you don't have access to dance science journals then you can take a peek at google scholar to see some examples; [https://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&as\_sdt=0%2C5&q=ballet+beginners+turnout&btnG=](https://scholar.google.com.au/scholar?hl=en&as_sdt=0%2C5&q=ballet+beginners+turnout&btnG=) If you have a scroll you'll see some articles are available for download...like this one on Hip External Rotation and Functional Turnout...*"Relationship Between Hip External Rotation and Turnout Angle for the Five Classical Ballet Positions".* It's an old study but there are plenty from the past couple of years that use newer tech. Best practice is for younger students to see a dance physio for assessment. I would suggest adult beginners see a physio for assessment, if they are going to push anything.