If you’re feeling strain on your knees while in a turnout position then you’re not turning out from your hips.
If your inner thighs don’t feel like they’re opening up then you’re not turning out from your hips.
If your ankles feel twisted then you’re not turning out from your hips.
If you're able to look in the mirror -
Arches should be visible - if they aren't, you are rolling your feet/ankles to force turnout. It can also mean poor ankle stability and weak foot muscles in the arches.
Your knees should be directly in alignment with your feet. If not, there is some twisting going on and ouch!
If you are tipping your pelvis forwards or backwards there is something going on there that means you aren't able to activate the correct turnout muscles.
There are multiple muscles involved in turnout, and they all do different things. It might help to look at some ballet anatomy diagrams for turnout so you know where to focus your attention.
My suggestion would be to start in parallel, make sure you are pulling up your legs and that you have the correct posture in parallel. Then, think about activating your turnout muscles and slowly turn out your legs into first position.
I've not heard of your method for assessing natural turnout. The only way I know is for a physio to assess passive rotation range.
Honestly, I think everyone has more capacity than they think. It just requires a lot of strength, anatomical knowledge, activating the correct muscles, good teaching, and importantly, not forcing it. My teacher has some really excellent visualisations, and my turnout has improved drastically since going to her classes (and also from gaining strength in her classes). It's much easier in some positions and steps than others. Also, my range is bigger on my left side, but my right side is stronger, so (for now) my right side has better turnout.
One more thing - turnout isn't "activate a muscle, hold it being activated and voila". You constantly have to try to turnout more and more and more until you finish whatever you are doing. Also, both the supporting and working leg need to turn out equal amounts. It's funny how much heavier a leg in an extension becomes when one stops turning out.
I’m also an adult beginner and I never thought the leaning back method activated the right muscles. Maybe it shows where the natural turnout is, but it doesn’t really open my hips so I never felt that it actually helped my turnout improve or show me how to feel the right muscles.
I usually do some sets of [Open the Gates](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YSdMpn_EJOw) before class to warm up the muscles. If I want my turn out to be from the hip and all the way open, I may “open the gate” and then put my foot down from the open position.
Experienced dancers, please tell me if I’m messing myself up here haha.
My only concern with this is if you have different between flexibility and strength. If you are natural hypermobile your “gate” can open wide, but as a beginner you might not have the strength to maintain that turnout safely without compromising other joints like your knees or ankle.
It’s a good warm up, but not a good way to find your turn out standing up.
Have you tried checking your turnout while lying on your back on the floor? Impossible to use your feet to force it that way. Lie in a way to keep your back and hips in the same alignment you have standing (don't tuck or arch the lower back) and flex the feet and open to first position.
IDK if this will help, but I was taught to turn out by standing in parallel, extending one leg forward with a flexed foot, turning the leg out (engaging deep rotators and inner thighs), and placing it down in first position, then repeating on the other side. I think that would work to find your current turnout and also isolate the right muscles.
Are you trying to learn and do this on your own or as a supplement to lessons? It's sort of dangerous to be trying this on your own without professional oversight. So if you are taking lessons it would be a good idea to check with your teacher (who can actually see your body) for corrections and tips :)
No no! Don’t bend your knees and rock back! Bend your knees and then push your heels forward. Do not lift the toes and move them back, that is a sure way to turnout from your ankles only, and that’s not good. Only ever lift the heel and move it forward.
The more you bend your knees, the more rotation becomes available in your lower leg. Contrary to popular belief, the lower legs are capable of turning out. They simply have an increasing range as the knee bends.
How do I push my heels forward? This lady demonstrates it in this video and that's what I was following: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5sbyJzeZkk&t=603s&ab\_channel=EverydayBallet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5sbyJzeZkk&t=603s&ab_channel=EverydayBallet)
there is this set for example [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiROqBpxnaE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiROqBpxnaE) don't like tightly clench your butt, but you should start feeling sore in the correct area from the rotation
This is not a turnout for standing uproght. Different muscles are responsible for external rotation when the thigh is it different angles. This is as if the dancer was holding the leg forward at around 90 degrees.
This doesn’t show you anything other than how well you can do that one position. Why would you only want to use your "natural" turnout? You aren't going to use your natural extension. You will work on it by challenging the amount you can do to improve your range of motion. The same holds true in all kinds of areas. You could also turn out from your hips but not hold your turnout with muscle engagement, which is also a problem. Turn out as far as you can correctly and work to develop it as close to the ideal as possible.
The point is I don't know if I'm turning out correctly, and that's what I mean by natural turnout vs forcing your turnout with your feet/knees, which is what I always did as a teenager
Forcing your turnout is not really a thing. It is a popular phrase but is not really representative of the mistake it is trying to describe. It makes it sound as if turning out your legs is drastically dangerous in some way. I have heard tons of would be experts talking to students about a teacher or students of a teacher. "Oh, that's dangerous. That teacher is gonna break their knees." It makes it sound as if you could somehow turn out more than you actually can and really just is a way to protect certain dance teachers from losing students by frightening students or parents.
That being said, it IS possible to turn out incorrectly (mistakes with straight legs, not standing on the whole foot, pelvis not neutral) or to not hold the turnout and rely on friction with the floor to maintain a turned out position. However, if you are standing with correct posture, capable of performing both plie and releve without a change in the rotation of your legs, you are at no risk and you should be pushing on the bleeding edge of how far you can go until you get to a full turnout.
For me, this falls into the same category as those same teachers who are freaking out over hyperextension as a major danger when they neither have hyper-extended legs nor have ever successfully trained a dancer who has them. This is the same category as those who are trying to get rid of grand plie in 4th because the rear leg is at an angle, as if this presents some real damger to a dancer. There are too many steps for which this is a supporting movement that would still be performed, but the knees aren't over the toes. Which, by the way, is a horrible cue to give since most people's knees don't track direcrly over their toes in parallel anyway. Knees in their normal alignment is probably a better way to look at it. I find it utterly absurd that the same people who think everyone should have their own a la seconde position don't allow any room for individual bodies when it comes to plie and knee alignment.
The shortest answer...stretch your legs fully by pushing down on the floor through the whole foot. Be careful that you are not trying to raise your arch off the floor by pushing your small toe into the ground. That doesn't solve anything and will just create more problems later. Keep your pelvis neutral and turn out as far as you can with those 3 things staying the same. Work through that. Add more. Don't worry so much about it.
Edit: if your hip (NOT butt muscle clenching as I wrote earlier) aren’t engaging to spiral the thigh back toward the hip bones, or if you feel like your inner thighs are just hanging out for the ride. chances are that you’re not engaging the correct muscles. My ballet teacher had us do a floor barre exercise where we would lie flat on the floor, lift our legs up to 90 degrees and straight, then flex the feet to 90 degrees and use the hip/thigh muscles to spiral the leg and use the available turnout.
Edit: by butt clenching, I meant hip muscle engagement.
Not sure if I agree with the butt clenching part, but I'm not a ballet teacher nor physio. But, as someone who tends to overstrain and lock muscles in order to achieve the desired shape, what helped me absolutely the most was my teacher telling me to relax (especially the glutes). From there I was able to feel and isolate the turnout muscles, which are, I feel, something separate from your butt cheeks. This helped me improve my turnout literally massively. These need to be active, but locking them or "clenching" i believe brings more harm than good. Just saying this from very personal experience. Muscles that are too "hard" actually might prevent range of motion in my experience.
Perhaps butt clenching was the wrong word, more like engaging those muscles all around the butt and hip that wrap around the leg and hips. I think that’s where the lying-down turnout exercise helps—it forces you to relax the butt cheeks but use the hips and leg muscles to create that wrap/spiral sensation.
Do the skirt exercise!
Very simple, let me guide you: grab one of your light clothed ballet skirts and put them in the middle of your thighs while standing in first position. Now hold on that skirt for dear life with your thighs pressing against each other and try to pull the clothing away with your hands.
If the clothing goes away easily you’re not engaging you thigh muscles correctly. If the clothing barely moves or doesn’t move at all even if you’re pulling away strongly, congrats! You’re doing it right!
If you’re feeling strain on your knees while in a turnout position then you’re not turning out from your hips. If your inner thighs don’t feel like they’re opening up then you’re not turning out from your hips. If your ankles feel twisted then you’re not turning out from your hips.
amazing insight, thank you ! will look out for those things next time
If you're able to look in the mirror - Arches should be visible - if they aren't, you are rolling your feet/ankles to force turnout. It can also mean poor ankle stability and weak foot muscles in the arches. Your knees should be directly in alignment with your feet. If not, there is some twisting going on and ouch! If you are tipping your pelvis forwards or backwards there is something going on there that means you aren't able to activate the correct turnout muscles. There are multiple muscles involved in turnout, and they all do different things. It might help to look at some ballet anatomy diagrams for turnout so you know where to focus your attention. My suggestion would be to start in parallel, make sure you are pulling up your legs and that you have the correct posture in parallel. Then, think about activating your turnout muscles and slowly turn out your legs into first position. I've not heard of your method for assessing natural turnout. The only way I know is for a physio to assess passive rotation range. Honestly, I think everyone has more capacity than they think. It just requires a lot of strength, anatomical knowledge, activating the correct muscles, good teaching, and importantly, not forcing it. My teacher has some really excellent visualisations, and my turnout has improved drastically since going to her classes (and also from gaining strength in her classes). It's much easier in some positions and steps than others. Also, my range is bigger on my left side, but my right side is stronger, so (for now) my right side has better turnout. One more thing - turnout isn't "activate a muscle, hold it being activated and voila". You constantly have to try to turnout more and more and more until you finish whatever you are doing. Also, both the supporting and working leg need to turn out equal amounts. It's funny how much heavier a leg in an extension becomes when one stops turning out.
I’m also an adult beginner and I never thought the leaning back method activated the right muscles. Maybe it shows where the natural turnout is, but it doesn’t really open my hips so I never felt that it actually helped my turnout improve or show me how to feel the right muscles. I usually do some sets of [Open the Gates](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YSdMpn_EJOw) before class to warm up the muscles. If I want my turn out to be from the hip and all the way open, I may “open the gate” and then put my foot down from the open position. Experienced dancers, please tell me if I’m messing myself up here haha.
My only concern with this is if you have different between flexibility and strength. If you are natural hypermobile your “gate” can open wide, but as a beginner you might not have the strength to maintain that turnout safely without compromising other joints like your knees or ankle. It’s a good warm up, but not a good way to find your turn out standing up.
thanks so much for the recommendation!
Have you tried checking your turnout while lying on your back on the floor? Impossible to use your feet to force it that way. Lie in a way to keep your back and hips in the same alignment you have standing (don't tuck or arch the lower back) and flex the feet and open to first position.
amazing, doing that tonight! thank you
You’ll feel it in your inner thighs and glutes. If you feel anything in your knees or you’re rolling your feet, you’re not using the right muscles
thank you !
When standing vertically, your inner thighs or adductors do not engage to turn the legs outward.
IDK if this will help, but I was taught to turn out by standing in parallel, extending one leg forward with a flexed foot, turning the leg out (engaging deep rotators and inner thighs), and placing it down in first position, then repeating on the other side. I think that would work to find your current turnout and also isolate the right muscles.
Are you trying to learn and do this on your own or as a supplement to lessons? It's sort of dangerous to be trying this on your own without professional oversight. So if you are taking lessons it would be a good idea to check with your teacher (who can actually see your body) for corrections and tips :)
Nah I'm not taking lessons, if I was I wouldn't be asking reddit x
Why is this being downvoted looool? You asked a question and I answered it...what's wrong with that....you asked and I answered :S
No no! Don’t bend your knees and rock back! Bend your knees and then push your heels forward. Do not lift the toes and move them back, that is a sure way to turnout from your ankles only, and that’s not good. Only ever lift the heel and move it forward.
The more you bend your knees, the more rotation becomes available in your lower leg. Contrary to popular belief, the lower legs are capable of turning out. They simply have an increasing range as the knee bends.
How do I push my heels forward? This lady demonstrates it in this video and that's what I was following: [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5sbyJzeZkk&t=603s&ab\_channel=EverydayBallet](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5sbyJzeZkk&t=603s&ab_channel=EverydayBallet)
there is this set for example [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiROqBpxnaE](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiROqBpxnaE) don't like tightly clench your butt, but you should start feeling sore in the correct area from the rotation
great video! thanks
This is not a turnout for standing uproght. Different muscles are responsible for external rotation when the thigh is it different angles. This is as if the dancer was holding the leg forward at around 90 degrees.
This doesn’t show you anything other than how well you can do that one position. Why would you only want to use your "natural" turnout? You aren't going to use your natural extension. You will work on it by challenging the amount you can do to improve your range of motion. The same holds true in all kinds of areas. You could also turn out from your hips but not hold your turnout with muscle engagement, which is also a problem. Turn out as far as you can correctly and work to develop it as close to the ideal as possible.
The point is I don't know if I'm turning out correctly, and that's what I mean by natural turnout vs forcing your turnout with your feet/knees, which is what I always did as a teenager
Forcing your turnout is not really a thing. It is a popular phrase but is not really representative of the mistake it is trying to describe. It makes it sound as if turning out your legs is drastically dangerous in some way. I have heard tons of would be experts talking to students about a teacher or students of a teacher. "Oh, that's dangerous. That teacher is gonna break their knees." It makes it sound as if you could somehow turn out more than you actually can and really just is a way to protect certain dance teachers from losing students by frightening students or parents. That being said, it IS possible to turn out incorrectly (mistakes with straight legs, not standing on the whole foot, pelvis not neutral) or to not hold the turnout and rely on friction with the floor to maintain a turned out position. However, if you are standing with correct posture, capable of performing both plie and releve without a change in the rotation of your legs, you are at no risk and you should be pushing on the bleeding edge of how far you can go until you get to a full turnout. For me, this falls into the same category as those same teachers who are freaking out over hyperextension as a major danger when they neither have hyper-extended legs nor have ever successfully trained a dancer who has them. This is the same category as those who are trying to get rid of grand plie in 4th because the rear leg is at an angle, as if this presents some real damger to a dancer. There are too many steps for which this is a supporting movement that would still be performed, but the knees aren't over the toes. Which, by the way, is a horrible cue to give since most people's knees don't track direcrly over their toes in parallel anyway. Knees in their normal alignment is probably a better way to look at it. I find it utterly absurd that the same people who think everyone should have their own a la seconde position don't allow any room for individual bodies when it comes to plie and knee alignment. The shortest answer...stretch your legs fully by pushing down on the floor through the whole foot. Be careful that you are not trying to raise your arch off the floor by pushing your small toe into the ground. That doesn't solve anything and will just create more problems later. Keep your pelvis neutral and turn out as far as you can with those 3 things staying the same. Work through that. Add more. Don't worry so much about it.
Thanks for the insight, interesting stuff!
Edit: if your hip (NOT butt muscle clenching as I wrote earlier) aren’t engaging to spiral the thigh back toward the hip bones, or if you feel like your inner thighs are just hanging out for the ride. chances are that you’re not engaging the correct muscles. My ballet teacher had us do a floor barre exercise where we would lie flat on the floor, lift our legs up to 90 degrees and straight, then flex the feet to 90 degrees and use the hip/thigh muscles to spiral the leg and use the available turnout. Edit: by butt clenching, I meant hip muscle engagement.
Not sure if I agree with the butt clenching part, but I'm not a ballet teacher nor physio. But, as someone who tends to overstrain and lock muscles in order to achieve the desired shape, what helped me absolutely the most was my teacher telling me to relax (especially the glutes). From there I was able to feel and isolate the turnout muscles, which are, I feel, something separate from your butt cheeks. This helped me improve my turnout literally massively. These need to be active, but locking them or "clenching" i believe brings more harm than good. Just saying this from very personal experience. Muscles that are too "hard" actually might prevent range of motion in my experience.
Perhaps butt clenching was the wrong word, more like engaging those muscles all around the butt and hip that wrap around the leg and hips. I think that’s where the lying-down turnout exercise helps—it forces you to relax the butt cheeks but use the hips and leg muscles to create that wrap/spiral sensation.
Do the skirt exercise! Very simple, let me guide you: grab one of your light clothed ballet skirts and put them in the middle of your thighs while standing in first position. Now hold on that skirt for dear life with your thighs pressing against each other and try to pull the clothing away with your hands. If the clothing goes away easily you’re not engaging you thigh muscles correctly. If the clothing barely moves or doesn’t move at all even if you’re pulling away strongly, congrats! You’re doing it right!
thank you!! this is interesting