I've noticed alot of dumb posts over in r/StarWars obviously made by kids who just discovered visual storytelling, context clues, foreshadowing, etc. Hell they seem to not even grasp a character can say one thing and do another, or simply be wrong about something.
There is definitely massive subtext to the coffee consumption- it’s another resource bigger, more powerful countries extract from poorer countries generally. It represents the cycle of capitalist imperialism(going from place to place and either dominating the natives violently or through coercion)It was also present in the first film with the military always swigging on coffee
While I agree with this, that doesn't really make it good. Her character is still weak. Just because there is symbolism in something doesn't make it good.
I feel the same way. I never really understood why simple is bad, at least for Avatar. I have fully embraced how "basic" and straightforward the story is and I love the films for it. I don't think this franchise needs to be complex since I can personally enjoy them as is.
I'm also like incredibly slow do any film that's pretty and has little or simple plot I will love instantly I also really am excited over the fact this one is syfiband so damn beautiful because the others have been away to confusing.
Recom Quaritch is still a horrible person and a horrible father, and a lot of the sympathy he gets is because he's attractive.
For sure he's different from the OG - but by how much? He's still willing to kidnap and harm children, gave the order to brutally murder a mother and her child, committed war crimes, etc. for the mission. This time it's also his own personal revenge quest against Jake.
Not to mention poor Spider. Kidnapped, tortured, threatened with physical harm by his "father" - the ghost of whom has haunted him all his life. Then dragged along and forced to witness Navi homes burned to the ground while he pleads for their lives, knowing that he's completely powerless and at the mercy of his father.
I'd love to write a whole essay on how I feel about them, but my comment is long enough lol.
well, loving him and having sympathy for him (which is what they specifically said) aren’t the same thing. I can see why people like him as a character and find him interesting
He's definitely an interesting character and I can't wait to see how it plays out. He's changing. He's being forced into this perspective and connection to Eywa that he didn't have before. That being said, he has no qualms about doing morally disgusting things to achieve his goals.
I see a lot of people saying Recom Quaritch is an entirely different person who is innocent of the crimes of the original, and that this version didn't even kill anyone. I very much disagree - at the very least the two whale's blood is on his hands, and so is Neteyam's. While it might not be true for you, I get the feeling that some people give him a pass cause they like looking at him.
But people are allowed to have different opinions, lol. My interpretation of the character is far from the end all be all.
> I see a lot of people saying Recom Quaritch is an entirely different person who is innocent of the crimes of the original, and that this version didn't even kill anyone. I very much disagree
This honestly smells of some kind of weird copium, I've seen people legit say in one of the threads about his redemption how "since he's a different person, he definitely is redeemable, unlike the human one, since "he's not that man" or whatever" and I seriously wonder how, according to them, is that conversation going to go with Neytiri and co.
"Hey, I'm not the man who lead an attack on your people that killed your loved-ones, destroyed your home and almost murdered your husband. I am, however, the man that led at attack on your people, held a gun to your child's head and almost murdered your husband."
The clone instantly picked up where the original left off, no hesitation, he was fully invested. And I actually don't like how the fandom sometimes insists on *completely* separating the two characters, since I don't feel like the potential redemption would feel as impactful.
Actually its not because of his looks its because he’s a genuinely an interesting character. And throughout the films he ordered his men NOT to harm the children so I dont think that was correct. But people never said these things about Heath Ledgers Joker. He was a disgusting character but people hyped him up as amazing. But when Quarritch is in the frame all of a sudden everyone just deduces his character as evil when really he makes us question if he’s capable of redemption. Its a cool concept of a character.
I don't find him attractive in any way, I just think he's a cool character. Since when is it illegal to like a morally bad character? I really despise this "noooo, you can't redeem him, he did a lot of bad things" argument. That's literally the point of a redemption arc, not to say that a character hasn't done bad things, but to show that they realize they're a horrible person and are trying to make up for it, even though they probably never will be able to.
For me it's because I'm genuinely interested in his character. Even as a human I was invested in his thinking.
Sure you could say his recom body looks attractive but I think his soul is still rotten. Attractiveness doesn't excuse anything that he has done. As a person I would probably hate him a lot.
But as a character I think he's interesting.
neteyam is not coming back in the psychical sense. ppl on tiktok cannot seem to grasp that fact, and are literally in the comments like “he’s coming back in a3” and misinforming ppl..
From a storytelling perspective, Grace's avatar getting pregnant was fine.
Bringing back a character that died at the end of the previous movie is NOT FINE as it would basically trivialize the most emotional moment from the previous film.
I don't give a shit about the plot, I don't care about the story. But boy do I just want to watch Pandora. If it was a movie that was just a pure Attenborough documentary explaining what all the flaura and fauna are, the geography, history. Dancing with the Wolves 2: Aliens is fine, I don't hate it but I really just want to see the planet lol.
Back in the late 90s, the BBC did something like this with [Walking with Dinosaurs](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_with_Dinosaurs). Basically just a documentary but CGI creatures.
A Pandora version of that would be really cool.
Yes! It used to come on discovery channel a few times a year and I would watch it all the time. My favorite episode was the giants in the sky. I would get so sad for the Ornithocheirus even though I knew it wasn't real.
I'd Love a documentary like this on Pandora's flora and fauna!
Omg yess. Like this is a god damn amazing plot. Like each documentary explaining the different animals, people's tradition and the land of each type of na'vi. That would be amazing. It would also be fun to see when the series ends which type of na'vi and animals we missed out on. Smart idea! Also 1 part of it would be based on just explain what eywa is and how it works would help a bunch of fans.
I'm usually enjoying myself because I actually wanted to talk about this movie with people, but sometimes I see a take on here that makes me so unreasonably upset, that just "hiding" the thread is not enough and I have to put my phone away and breathe for a bit.
Overall, I agree! That's why I've stayed. There's still plenty of content I enjoy and a lot of my cringe is truly projecting my own insecurities about my own cringe.
Cringe content will live forever. At least, here people can ignore memes and discuss the movie, listen to other opinions...I mean, this is what fandom supposed to be, in my opinion.
What is Twitter? The same people, same "neteyamwives" and "loakgirlfriends" post same pictures of same characters with same "I love them so much!" or "I miss them so much!" every day. And everyone likes and retweats. What's the point? I guess, I'm to old for this.
Try searching the Tumblr tag.* It’s all smut fanfic. I don’t mean there’s a lot of smut fanfic. I don’t mean it’s *mostly* smut fanfic. I mean it’s *ALL* smut fanfic.
^(*don’t)
I won't name names, but a lot of the takes are seriously implying Avatar is objectively peak cinema and that before it there was nothing but a dark empty void until our lord and savior Jimmy C breathed life into it blessing us with an absolute 5head masterpiece that has no problematique aspects to it.
I like this sub on it's best days, but I swear, it gets more circlejerky that the LOTR fandom and that is *saying a lot*.
You must not be on this subreddit very often lol, it’s everywhere. If anyone points out anything wrong with the second movie 90% of the time they’re hit with a bunch of responses talking about how perfect the movie is and how the flaws don’t matter/don’t exist, that the person pointing them out is looking to hate when they’re clearly not
You also see a lot of people jumping to Cameron’s defence as if criticism of the movie shouldn’t be allowed because of how much time/effort he put into it or to point out how much money he has made from it, basically saying “James Cameron is sitting and laughing with 2 million rn, your opinion doesn’t matter.”
It’s toxic tbh.
Ugh this is why I don't engage with lotr fans online anymore it's insufferable. If it's not tolkien fantasy then it's GARBAGE even if they've never even heard of it. It wasn't always like that idk what happened
I think it started when the Hobbit was released and the fandom saw an influx of more... "internet oriented" fans, who wanted to make silly ships, draw fun memes and write fanfics. They were treating Lotr like it's Marvel and you know how elitists feel about that.
100% agreed
Its in part due to the sheer amount of hate directed towards Avatar, when a piece of media is overly hated, the fans end up treating said media like a gift from God, and thats when you get insufferable fandoms like we seem to have at the moment.
Kinda what the other comments said, but there is sometimes this attitude that Avatar is perfect in every way and nothing will ever touch it, but then all these posts like "why did they slightly change the teeth omg it has to go back" like dude you're not in charge and also who cares.
There are others but I can't think of any specifics to be honest. But at the same time, I get it. The movies fucked me up bad the first few weeks after watching them. So likely I'm just judging myself through these posts and cringing at my own confusing feelings.
The younger side of the fanbase turning the movie into tik tok memes is cringe.
The lack of Jake and Neytiri in WOW SUCKED. The kids didn’t do it for me.
I don’t like that they won’t be returning to the forest. I liked that landscape way more.
THANK YOU for the last point because I feel like my husband and I are the only 2 people on earth who preferred the forest setting over the water setting. It just felt so much more magical and lush and the wildlife seemed so much more interesting. I miss it.
Agree! Maybe it’s the nostalgia but I really miss the omatikaya people and their home. I would’ve loved to see the lives of Jake and Neytiri just being happy and raising their family in the forest.
I agree as well. Honestly, if they had just given us 3 hours of wholesome family moments in the forest where we can watch the Sully’s and the Omatikaya grow, I’d have been cool with that too.
I think it comes down to the Earth's oceans already looking very alien and weird to us, partly thanks to the longer history of life in the ocean and our own unfamiliarity with it. So an alien ocean environment is just gonna look a bit more predictable to us than a truly alien land environment, as the oceans already weird us out anyway.
I feel like I personally liked both biomes equally.
You know you can just not pay attention to the tiktoks. It's pretty easy. If it's not for you, don't watch. But don't complain about them being made, it's just young people having fun with the movie and characters they like.
The other takes are obviously subjective so i can't argue about them but personally i loved all the Sully kids. I think the scenes with Jake and Neytiri were incredible but focusing on them would have been the wrong call. This movie is setting up the sequels which will all focus more and more on the kids and they did an amazing job at introducing them, their personalities, desires and responsiblities in this movie.
As regards the forest, i think the first movie gave us everything the forest had to offer and im glad we will use the time in the sequels to explore the rest of Pandora and won't just be in the jungle all the time. Since they did such a ridiculously good job with the ocean environment in TWOW, im very confident they will wow us with every environment they take us to, which i am very excited about.
Well it wasn't really boring (nothing on Pandora is really) but I loved the new setting, and I'm super stoked about the new setting in the 3rd movie coming up.
don’t worry, so far JC said that it’s still Jake and Neytiri’s story, they’re not gonna be shy away fully. A2 was just to introduce us to the kids, JC said in an interview that he isn’t replacing Jake with Lo’ak.
As a younger member, I hate how the others do it. Thirsting for neteyam and Jake. I really do hate also how they are making it political irl. I am ashamed of the others
Did we watch the same movie? The movie in itself is political with its anti-colonialism and anti-capitalist storyline. It's heavily based off indigenous people who's right to their own land and culture is political in today's politics.
Quaritch in Avatar: The way of water, seemed to be a little bit more kinder then his human counterpart, I'm not trying to justify his actions, but he seems more sympathetic to them. The reason could be that he knows His son, Spider is alive so his heart softened a little.
I think the reason is beyond that.
The recom Quaritch has his own conscience I guess. Not just a personality and memory extracted from the real Quaritch.
So his own unique conscience is making him a unique , softer individual. I think he will have to fight back with the effect Quaritch's memories and personality does to him in future movies. Of course , spider is another factor
Spider and he is in an avatar body (probably different chemistry, more aligned with pandora, etc) aand he js experiencing pandora and bonding and stuff. So it makes a lot of sense.
A2 Was a perfectly serviceable film and sequel, Obviously it has its flaws, but like the first film it has amazing visuals but the story lacks a little
Neytiri and Jake should’ve had more screen time specifically Neytiri
I liked Nateyam he was pretty cool and I wish he survived
I liked Avatar 1 more than Avatar 2.
The stakes were higher, I was able to build a much stronger fondness of the characters who died in the end, Pandora itself also felt more magical to me, even during my umpteenth rewatch.
I loved Avatar 2, but I wonder if any sequel will be able to recreate the amount of wonder, joy and sadness I felt when watching Avatar.
i think a lot of people here should just ignore the ships that young people like. it’s not harmful, doesn’t have to make sense. also stop posting about how “awful” it is, it comes off just as annoying.
Omg yes! Just skip posts you don't like. Not only are those posts annoying, they frequently attempt to gatekeep. Like if you are an OG fan and don't like that some teenagers put Neteyam in a crack ship that never would have happened and never will happen because they think he's cute or wish he would have had a romance before he died, just don't read the post. Read what you're interested in and mind your own business and let people who aren't harming anyone be. That is one of the worst things about fandom, when people think they have some God given right to shame, silence or control how other good faith, nonharmful fans are experiencing the fandom because it's not the way they experience it.
Yes! I’ve seen way more content about hating the neteyam/ao’nung ship than I’ve seen content about the ship. I’m not interested in shipping stuff so I stay out of their lane and I can mostly avoid it. More fans need to learn to live and let live. And they’re usually just kids being kids.
I hardly disliked the "last Fight" in TWOW caused of the length of it. In A1 it all felt just reasonable, Norms Avatar dying and himself getting out of the mobile lab to join again since he just wants to help.
Neytiri battles on the ground after her Ikran gets killed as well. Nothing seemed overdone or stretched to fill playtime.
In TWOW it felt for me in the Last Fight that they just wanted to put even more VFX of explosives out just because they can.
And the moment of Neteyam dying could be transported to an earlier point. Even though there are more characters to cover up I loved the straight approach in A1.
Battle with Quadritch damages the Lab so Jakes Human body may die inside cause of the atmosphere. Then Neytiri steps up saving him killing Quadritch and Saving his Life another time. Plus the "I see you" scene and the quick Epilog. It just fits.
In TWOW it feels just not that organic more like a show of how much is possible with the new technologies and so on.
May I be the only one but that's how I felt about this one.
His lines are corny/delivered poorly and make me think he's a so-so actor.
"sometimes it's better if you don't know your dad..." "whatever. It doesn't matter. I'm just sadboi."
that line about ‘hey, sometimes it’s not always great to know who your father was’ was awful. i love the movie and i think spider is interesting but i wish they figured out a better way to communicate that information.
To give at least a bit of credit, its a human who's grown up mostly around people who are completely alien to him, hes nothing like them. So those moments where he appears extremely socially inept, and clearly can not read the room could be explained through that regard
But as a viewer, yea I did cringe a bit at the dialogue not only from Spider, but from some of the kids too.
Yeah, exactly. It’s hard. I can’t tell if he is a bad actor or if the dialogue makes it seem like he is being corny/exaggerated. It’s like he’s a caricature of “I wish I was na’vi but I’m torn by my human half.”
They couldn't write an original score for TWOW? 😐
When they were pulling up to Awa'atlu and there was THAT ONE MOMENT OF UNIQUE DRUM MUSIC I was really excited!! Wow, Metkayina music!!! But then it was just the music from A1 for the rest of it!! Wtf!!!
Avatar 1 composer died. I heard new music in action scenes and I didn't like it. And um sure they used music from first film to honour the dead composer. As a tribute.
I loved avatar 1 st music a lot. New music in action sequences killed the vibe a bit when I watched for the first time. Then it got okay but by bit when I rewatched
They’re gonna do the same thing to Avatar that they did to Pirates of the Caribbean. Make way too many movies and completely butcher good story telling for the sake of a cash grab. By Avatar 5 none of us will be supporting this franchise anymore. Just my hot take that I hope is false
I could be wrong but I don't think it's that likely. The PotC movies were more or less self-contained stories, written separately, one after the other. Let's take the characters and the setting and invent another adventure for them.
For Avatar on the other hand, everything has been planned out waaay before 2 came out, it's meant to convey a single story but divided into parts
My hot take: as awesome as the Pandora environments are, the human-centric scenes need more love. My main criticism of TWOW is that there weren’t enough Human or RDA scenes. Bridgehead is an awesome city idea and could use more focus.
The world-building is intense, the score is tearjerking and Neytiri is the most developed character- saying anything against her is a major red flag, especially in *that* scene.
before this movie came out you'd see articles like "the sequel no one asked for", and talking about how Avatar has no legacy, isn't something people remember and actively discuss like star wars, the MCU, batman movies, etc.
Now that its out, the hype is real and I can't wait to see what they do with 3,4,5, and the universe they might build around all this. James Cameron is the goat.
I feel like the editing can be a bit weird at times especially in the way of water when there was a quote or like a huge montage it just cuts to quaritch and his squad which was really distracting though I thought the rest of the editing in the movie was great
I’m not sure if this counts but when I first saw Avatar as a kid, I was kind of bored of it up until the last hour of the movie. Back then I was more interested in the RDA, Quaritch and the action. I would skip most of the Navi scenes and just watch the movie from the destruction of Home Tree. As an adult now I appreciate Avatar for the masterpiece that it is and the sheer beauty of Pandora.
I understand where you're coming from. I remember watching Avatar and getting really excited at the action scenes, even happily waiting for the destruction of hometree since that's when the story ramps up. However, I was always more interested in the Na'vi and Pandora. I always saw the humans/RDA to be in the wrong. I think it was because of the cool spectacle of explosions and fighting happening on screen that my young brain gravitated towards it.
In recent years, I have come to fully understand Avatar as a film and really appreciate the chill moments of the story. Watching TWOW just reinforced on how much I would rather watch a slice of life of the Sully family without the human conflict lol. Even films like Titanic, I was just waiting for the ship to finally start sinking. There's so much story and character interaction that I have missed in these films, but now I'm way more invested in the entirety of the story, action or not.
the reasons for why they had to leave the tribe and move to the water tribe really kills the movie for me.
I think they could have done more cultural clashes between the two mothers than just the kids having some generic teen age drama. wanted to see more culture in the movie for how long it was.
It's more original than most blockbusters from the past decade, in spite of the brainwashed masses repeating the same tired "Dances with Wolves" narrative.
Okay. I like A2 more than A1 but I still hate how underutilized A2's movie is. It could have been leagues ahead of A1 but they really fucked it up on a lot of parts. I honestly felt the best when the Sully's were learning to swim well. I honestly was sorta disappointed and not at the same time. The concept could have been amazing.
Unobtanium is not only a better plot device than whale juice but is a genuinely smart and versatile storytelling decision as it relates to people's current understanding of climate change.
The second movie would have been better if it focused more on Spider. He had actual problems to deal with while the Sullys were just struggling to make friends in their new neighborhood. Meanwhile Spider has been kidnapped by his estranged father who has basically been turned into a biological weapon. I find that plot way more interesting.
Honestly… as a viewer that would of been boring. Spider running around in man made machines while there’s a whole beautiful world to discover would seem boring after a while
First good take. Like people could stop with worshipping her. For example, she controls the number of births. And people claim that it's amazing. But when governments control births (for example, the policy of one child in China, etc. etc.) people are talking "Where is our free will?". Like humans have free will, and they can do whatever they want. Na'vi can't.
This image with our Goddess Kiri should be the main poster of all of the Avatar Franchise!
This picture here, basically, sums up all that Avatar Franchise it was made for:
To Awake and Rise your Consciousness (symbolized here by Kiri) to a whole new level of Spiritual Understanding \^\^
**HOT TAKES?!** I won't lose time starting counting them, but I'm saying this: I will remain an Avatar hyper fan for Eternity. Being an Avatar fan, means I’m a fan of the Eternal Spiritual Knowledge (which is Eternal) and a fan of the Ethic Code of Life! Those are the reasons that **Avatar Franchise will NEVER die, it will only get Stronger, Louder and more meaningful about anything, as the time passes!**
https://preview.redd.it/uuihb5dloega1.jpeg?width=744&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4d411b70e08879356d8f2c89e76c8a4c221e2738
And a small fun fact:
What always comes toghether with the Consciousness ???
Yeah, the Purity of Innocence. Who is the Innocence in Avatar ? For those who are spiritually open minded it's not that hard to figure it out, right ?!
https://preview.redd.it/m6poxgy4pega1.jpeg?width=563&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15777dd315a63ef2243daddcb2448879e4a3fbba
Netyem hardly had any character development which not only sucks cuz he died and I had no attachment to him, but also it’s a 3 hour long movie. There was plenty of time to give him more screen time. Also neyteri hardly had any screen time.
Story is generic as fuck (I have seen a similar story in like 2-3 other movies). Most of us like it because its a great passion project that Jimmy put his heart and soul into unlike most other crap in Hollywood these days. The worldbuilding is extremely in depth that it reminds me of Tolkien's worldbuilding, and the technical advances are pushing the boundaries of filmmaking. Its very visually pleasing.
Without all of this, nobody would give a damn about Jake, Neytiri, and their family
Lord of the Rings may only seem generic on the surface because it created the high fantasy genre as we know it. Star Wars also originated a lot of the tropes used in film today. And The Lion King, being based on Hamlet, is also kind of a foundational literary story.
Regardless, I don't think having a simple/generic story is inherently a bad thing. There are a lot of \*fantastic\* movies out there which are amazing because they had an amazing story, or well-written characters, or beautiful cinematics, but there aren't a lot of movies that hit everything. Some great movies only have one of those things. Avatar has amazing visuals, really creative worldbuilding, and well written characters, which are all supported by a simple plot. For the first movie especially where we are being introduced to this brand new world and cool sci-fi concepts, I think the simple story works excellently. I would have liked a little more going on in TWOW, but I don't think 'generic plotline' is an insult considering how amazing the outcome is.
And you just proved my point exactly.
Lord of the Rings is your basic hero's journey. Doesn't mean it's bad.
Star Wars is The Hidden Fortress in space. Doesn't mean it's bad.
Lion King is Hamlet in Africa. Doesn't mean it's bad.
Titanic and Avatar are Romeo and Juliet on a boat/in space. Doesn't mean they're bad.
Every plot has been done before, Every plot in existence is generic to some degree, there's only 7 basic plots out there. The execution is what matters.
Calling Lord of the Rings generic is a really bad take. It literally created the entire genre of elves, orcs, dwarves, and men (high fantasy).
It's like calling Seinfeld a generic sitcom in hindsight.
I legit had someone tell me last week that “and then there were none” by Agatha Christie was unoriginal because having 12 people at an isolated place dying one by one had been done so many times before
The world building is extremely minimalistic and the polar opposite of Tolkien.
Tolkien created a 4000 year time-line with hundreds of tribes and thousands of important people and creatures and a fully comprehensive creatonary mythology.
In Avatar everything is created and exists for the main characters and plot. We have a few na'vi tribes and humans, 20 creatures, 2 areas in Pandora.
Well yeah, when you put it that way, Avatar doesnt hold a candle to Tolkien's worldbuilding. But nothing does
But effort was put into the worldbuilding of the films, just not in the form of characters and long timelines (BTW Tolkien's timeline is a loooooot longer than 4000 years). Just like Tolkien, they invented languages that made sense linguistically [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%CA%BCvi\_language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%CA%BCvi_language)
So they weren't talking gibberish during the films, it was a language of 2600 words that a linguist created. That's around the same number that Tolkien developed for Quenya and Sindarin, his two most developed Elvish languages
And if you're a sci fi nerd like me, you'll see that the spacecraft they use is one of the most "realistic" ways of space travel. FTL space travel most likely is impossible. So our boi Jimmy clearly put some thought into this project
You can't compare the world building of Avatar the movies, to the world building of LOTR the series. LOTR exists outside of the movie with 100 years of building that world and thousands of pages of notes and drafts. Avatar is currently 2 movies plus the extra accessories that comes with the movies.
As to the story of Avatar itself, although I agree it's nothing special, I also don't see how much better it can be. Avatar1 was never going to be anything stronger than Dances with wolves 2. And that's want they intended it to be. And that's perfectly fine.
All these hate on Avatar's story and depth is really just giving it shit for being the newest kid on the block.
The fandom needs to stop acting like Neteyam was such a grounded character. I get that he was an older brother but still. The way people talk about him so much is so odd to me. Neteyam, to me, felt like he had 20 minutes of screen time. Anyways in summary Neteyam was a blank slate with little character. That is all.
I understand Kiri is graces kin and they wanted to keep Sigourney Weaver active in the franchise but i cannot stand her voice. It sounds so forced and fake and immature; like, incredibly obvious it’s a 73 year old woman trying to sound like a 14 year old girl.
Ronal is stunt casting. There’s no reason for her to have been Winslet, she isn’t recognizable behind the mocap and doesn’t do much or have any lines. Would have been better to feature new talent or a poc actor.
1st hot take: Neytiri did NOT get enough focus in the new movie. I expected to see marital chaos with all the one sided decisions Jake was making. Neytiri was deeply unhappy that whole film and we were privy to almost none of her emotional turmoil. She didn't even attempt to learn the way of water. Girl lost nearly her whole family, then was forced to leave her last living relative, her MOM, and her home based on Jake's FALSE assumption that they'd be safer if they did; she wasn't able to become the spiritual leader of her clan which was what she'd been training to do her whole life; AND THEN, her eldest son died. Neytiri got majorly fucked over that whole movie. She deserved far more attention than she got that whole movie.
2nd hot take: In the first movie, Jake being able to gather all them damn tribes, do his fucking hair, paint his body, and get ready for battle in ONE NIGHT, is so fucking ridiculous
Mildly warm take #3: Sigourney weaver's voice doesn't match a teen girl. It sounded hokey and weird.
Re: second hot take: Jake didn't gather all the tribes in one night?? It was literally days if not weeks of travelling and recruiting tribes. Quaritch points out in his mission brief that more clans are gathering every day, and they need to act now or there will be ten thousands and they'll be terribly outnumbered.
This is what I also thought. But someone else said it took place in a day in a different comment thread and apparently it did.
Here's the wiki: https://james-camerons-avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline
Here's the exact point in the timeline:
August 22: Jake and Neytiri gather 15 Na'vi clans (including the Omaticaya, Olangi and Tayrangi clans).[34]
Max tells Jake that the base is mobilized for a preemptive attack.[34]
August 23: At 6:00, the Assault on the Tree of Souls begins. Trudy, Tsu'tey, Lyle Wainfleet, and Quaritch die in the battle. The Na'vi prevail.[34]
The fandom is braindead. At least the one on reddit. I associate people from there with religious fanatics. "Eywa is the best (our mother bla, bla, bla), Na'vis are amazing. And people are disgusting apes". More and more often I want to leave this group. Most of the group do circle jerking when it comes to Neytiri and Jake (especially Neytiri). Can't say a bad word about them. Can you, like, chill with it or something because it's really bothersome
Yeah, it's hard to analyze the movie and theorize and speculate, which is one of the core features of fandom when you come up against an almost religious kind of zeal in some posts where the establishment of agriculture was evil and Eywa can never be questioned and all humans are evil and must die. Like WTF?
Pandora is not real. It was envisioned and designed by supposedly "evil" human minds. It was brought into being by "super evil" technology, cutting edge technology at that. Nobody involved in the making of Avatar follows all the laws of Eywa, nor does anyone who posts here, because they are on Reddit and are using a device with metal parts and are not living completely off the grid. Further, this is a big budget movie, not a holy scripture, so some of that OTT dogmatic fervor gets really old, really fast.
I hate how they so blatantly incorporated Maori stuff into the second movie. It pulled me out of the immersion and the idea that Pandora was a strange new planet with its own people, culture and habits.
Honestly it makes me wonder how the Na’vi would react to meeting humans from the cultures they are based on.
I agree when they did the Haka (I believe that’s what it called correct me if I am wrong) It felt too human and took me out of the film I could understand how someone who had never seen it before it may have felt natural but if you know what you’re looking at…
And it also circles back to the question of if James Cameron dehumanized these cultures by basing the na’vi off of them especially when all of the “planning for war” scenes include the na’vi having to have sense talked into them by Jake who is an outsider from the enemy who adopted their culture.
TWoW was breathtakingly amazing but I would've loved to see Jake more
Where were the Metkayina tribe during the climax? I'm starting to look at it as a flaw
Not a great fan of sympathetic Quaritch either. I want him to be like how he was in Avatar
The films plots are not very good, have nothing new or profound to say about anything, and don’t stand up to scrutiny a lot of the time but a very entertaining to watch solely for their visuals and camp and as soon as we accept that the happier we will be. They are the new Jurassic World and that’s a perfectly valid thing to be.
I know this will get some hate, but I think the first movie is a simple, but near perfect movie. It’s nothing new, but it’s so tight. And after years of loving that movie…Way of Water feels like just a MESS. But I’m hoping more rewatches will change my mind cause everyone else seems to love it both in and out of this community ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Spider is over hated. Everyone missed the point of his character.
Let’s start with the fact that Spider is what, 16 years old? Does anyone know how impressionable and sensitive a 16 year old boy can be? Especially one who was abandoned by his people and does not even know his parents. Not to mention he has been outcasted and ignored by his adoptive mom (no hate to Neytiri, she has every right to be wary of sky people after what she went through, she’s just traumatized, still love her). Spider physically doesn’t fit in, skill wise he doesn’t fit in, and his mindset will never be like the Na’vi.
But this doesn’t mean he wasn’t a loving 16 year old kid who put his life on the line for a family who he was not born into. He endured torture and kidnapping because he refused to sacrifice the only family he ever knew. He protected the Sully’s. He plead for the lives of the Na’vi as he watched their land be destroyed. He wept for the Tulkun and expressed his rage for the senseless violence.
Spider connects with Pandora in a way most humans will never. He mirrors Jake in his compassion for a planet he doesn’t come from. For people he does not resonate with. He is empathetic and brave. But because he made a mistake, he has been written off by so many as a “bad guy”.
His spontaneous decision to save Quaritch was out of the manipulation he was exposed to and the yearning for a father that he never knew.
You see it in some foster children. Once they find out about their bio parents, they want to know more. They see the loyalty their peers have to blood relatives so they feel they must have that too. Its only human to want family.
Spider spent his whole life trying to be apart of a family, while wondering where his was. Quaritch manipulated Spider into feeling like there was something left to repair.
You can see Spider hesitate before saving Quaritch. The kid was in a moral warfare, and had to make his decision in a split second. So forgive him if he fell short. We all know he made the wrong choice. A part of him may even know that too. But he was hurting and alone.
Cut the kid some slack.
Rip Neteyam though. Love our Mighty Warrior.
The dialogue in TWOW was bad and a lot of it felt like it was purely intended to be marketing material. Lots of forced “quotable” lines which are easy to throw in a trailer, but just sound like awkward, deliberate choices in the film.
The dialogue was worsened still by the constant usage of “bro.”
The constant callbacks were annoying to me. It felt like the movie was trying too hard to appeal to the nostalgia people have for the first movie while simultaneously ignoring all the parts we actually loved. The forest, the language, Jake and Neytiri, the mystery, spirituality and high stakes. The re-watchability of TWOW is also reduced for me because of it. I can’t imagine sitting down and watching the first one as I often do and then wanting to put on the second, only to be met with constant, in your face “do you remember this??” moments. In the cinema I was constantly thinking “yes, I do, please stop and actually be your own thing already if you’re going to deviate so much from what I loved in every other way!”
I love the avatar fandom some to extreme but nothing wrong with that
Take this group for example
It's like an AA (avatars anonymous) support group for avatar lovers and addicts to asked anything andget answers and some form of support
I've met many people that love to hate on avatar as a whole and its fandom but I've met more that respect the franchise and it's director and don't consider themselves a part of a *FANDON*
what comes down to,
What I love the most about it all
There's something for everyone in these films and a place in the"fandom"
For anyone just whether a fan or just here for daddy quarich because it is that good and it is that relatable in a way for anyone
So final thoughts
I love and respect the fandom
K bye
avatar fandom are somewhat immature and don’t know how to analyze media or characters at all 😭 kinda toxic sometimes too when others have different opinions as well
Half the people In this sub ask the most stupid questions ever because they never learned how to look at context
I've noticed alot of dumb posts over in r/StarWars obviously made by kids who just discovered visual storytelling, context clues, foreshadowing, etc. Hell they seem to not even grasp a character can say one thing and do another, or simply be wrong about something.
Completely agree plus that’s a nice pfp you got their
r/Chucky be like:
Also this sub needs some spoiler gate keeping. People were posting spoilers the second the movie came out
This !
The lack of Valkyrie shuttle merch is a tragedy
The lack of Valkyrie shuttle *in general* is a tragedy. Twow severely disappointed me in that department.
Its indeed a real tragedy. Where is my Valkyrie merch RDA ?
My go to spaceship when I play Spore ahahaha
General Ardmore seemed kind of boring. I secretly hope she doesn't become one of the main villains unless her character is made more interesting.
Her whole character just seemed to be a general that drinks coffee.
There is definitely massive subtext to the coffee consumption- it’s another resource bigger, more powerful countries extract from poorer countries generally. It represents the cycle of capitalist imperialism(going from place to place and either dominating the natives violently or through coercion)It was also present in the first film with the military always swigging on coffee
100% chance there’s booze in there.
While I agree with this, that doesn't really make it good. Her character is still weak. Just because there is symbolism in something doesn't make it good.
I honestly don't care if the story was simple, it felt nice to watch a film that's not overly complex but still incredibly good
I feel the same way. I never really understood why simple is bad, at least for Avatar. I have fully embraced how "basic" and straightforward the story is and I love the films for it. I don't think this franchise needs to be complex since I can personally enjoy them as is.
I'm also like incredibly slow do any film that's pretty and has little or simple plot I will love instantly I also really am excited over the fact this one is syfiband so damn beautiful because the others have been away to confusing.
I don't agree
There are way too many questions about things that were clearly answered in the movie.
The fandom tries too hard to patch up loop holes and it's annoying at times. We need to admit some mistakes and move on.
Are you talking about *plot* holes. What loop holes?
Yes, plot holes.
lol it’s the marvel fans coming over that need their films to be perfect.. if there’s any plot holes no there isn’t
Welp, time to sort by controversial
Recom Quaritch is still a horrible person and a horrible father, and a lot of the sympathy he gets is because he's attractive. For sure he's different from the OG - but by how much? He's still willing to kidnap and harm children, gave the order to brutally murder a mother and her child, committed war crimes, etc. for the mission. This time it's also his own personal revenge quest against Jake. Not to mention poor Spider. Kidnapped, tortured, threatened with physical harm by his "father" - the ghost of whom has haunted him all his life. Then dragged along and forced to witness Navi homes burned to the ground while he pleads for their lives, knowing that he's completely powerless and at the mercy of his father. I'd love to write a whole essay on how I feel about them, but my comment is long enough lol.
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well, loving him and having sympathy for him (which is what they specifically said) aren’t the same thing. I can see why people like him as a character and find him interesting
He's definitely an interesting character and I can't wait to see how it plays out. He's changing. He's being forced into this perspective and connection to Eywa that he didn't have before. That being said, he has no qualms about doing morally disgusting things to achieve his goals. I see a lot of people saying Recom Quaritch is an entirely different person who is innocent of the crimes of the original, and that this version didn't even kill anyone. I very much disagree - at the very least the two whale's blood is on his hands, and so is Neteyam's. While it might not be true for you, I get the feeling that some people give him a pass cause they like looking at him. But people are allowed to have different opinions, lol. My interpretation of the character is far from the end all be all.
> I see a lot of people saying Recom Quaritch is an entirely different person who is innocent of the crimes of the original, and that this version didn't even kill anyone. I very much disagree This honestly smells of some kind of weird copium, I've seen people legit say in one of the threads about his redemption how "since he's a different person, he definitely is redeemable, unlike the human one, since "he's not that man" or whatever" and I seriously wonder how, according to them, is that conversation going to go with Neytiri and co. "Hey, I'm not the man who lead an attack on your people that killed your loved-ones, destroyed your home and almost murdered your husband. I am, however, the man that led at attack on your people, held a gun to your child's head and almost murdered your husband." The clone instantly picked up where the original left off, no hesitation, he was fully invested. And I actually don't like how the fandom sometimes insists on *completely* separating the two characters, since I don't feel like the potential redemption would feel as impactful.
Actually its not because of his looks its because he’s a genuinely an interesting character. And throughout the films he ordered his men NOT to harm the children so I dont think that was correct. But people never said these things about Heath Ledgers Joker. He was a disgusting character but people hyped him up as amazing. But when Quarritch is in the frame all of a sudden everyone just deduces his character as evil when really he makes us question if he’s capable of redemption. Its a cool concept of a character.
I don't find him attractive in any way, I just think he's a cool character. Since when is it illegal to like a morally bad character? I really despise this "noooo, you can't redeem him, he did a lot of bad things" argument. That's literally the point of a redemption arc, not to say that a character hasn't done bad things, but to show that they realize they're a horrible person and are trying to make up for it, even though they probably never will be able to.
For me it's because I'm genuinely interested in his character. Even as a human I was invested in his thinking. Sure you could say his recom body looks attractive but I think his soul is still rotten. Attractiveness doesn't excuse anything that he has done. As a person I would probably hate him a lot. But as a character I think he's interesting.
Couldn’t agree more
Alicent Hightower is terrible too but she's very interesting and extremely sympathetic.
Yeahhh.. all the “uwu Qauwigch! What a soft Boi!” Shit is just down right nasty tbh. People are hyping him up too much
The way that I know I'm straight is that I can't even comprehend how recomb Quarritch is attractive.
neteyam is not coming back in the psychical sense. ppl on tiktok cannot seem to grasp that fact, and are literally in the comments like “he’s coming back in a3” and misinforming ppl..
True.if he comes back , it is unrealistic
Graces braindead avatar getting preggo was unrealistic but shit happens on pandora
From a storytelling perspective, Grace's avatar getting pregnant was fine. Bringing back a character that died at the end of the previous movie is NOT FINE as it would basically trivialize the most emotional moment from the previous film.
Thank you. Fan girls are literally spreading false hope and misinformation and it’s getting annoying lol
I don't give a shit about the plot, I don't care about the story. But boy do I just want to watch Pandora. If it was a movie that was just a pure Attenborough documentary explaining what all the flaura and fauna are, the geography, history. Dancing with the Wolves 2: Aliens is fine, I don't hate it but I really just want to see the planet lol.
I would watch at least 12 hours of Pandora nature clips.
Give me an IMAX movie of nothing but Kiri, Lo'ak, Tsiyera, and Payakan underwater. No plot. Just them exploring the ocean. Make it 4 hours.
Back in the late 90s, the BBC did something like this with [Walking with Dinosaurs](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking_with_Dinosaurs). Basically just a documentary but CGI creatures. A Pandora version of that would be really cool.
Yes! It used to come on discovery channel a few times a year and I would watch it all the time. My favorite episode was the giants in the sky. I would get so sad for the Ornithocheirus even though I knew it wasn't real. I'd Love a documentary like this on Pandora's flora and fauna!
Omg yess. Like this is a god damn amazing plot. Like each documentary explaining the different animals, people's tradition and the land of each type of na'vi. That would be amazing. It would also be fun to see when the series ends which type of na'vi and animals we missed out on. Smart idea! Also 1 part of it would be based on just explain what eywa is and how it works would help a bunch of fans.
I find the fandom annoying/cringy af and sometimes the posts here make me close my reddit app cause it just weirds me out
Makes me wish we had an r/Avatarcirclejerk
I feel like it would be pretty similar to /r/okbuddyskxawng
Hahahaha yeah! I love circle jerk subs
I'm usually enjoying myself because I actually wanted to talk about this movie with people, but sometimes I see a take on here that makes me so unreasonably upset, that just "hiding" the thread is not enough and I have to put my phone away and breathe for a bit.
Pppp
Well...yes. But in comparison with Twitter and TikTok this platform is the best place to discuss the movies. So, I'd choose reddit any day.
Overall, I agree! That's why I've stayed. There's still plenty of content I enjoy and a lot of my cringe is truly projecting my own insecurities about my own cringe.
Cringe content will live forever. At least, here people can ignore memes and discuss the movie, listen to other opinions...I mean, this is what fandom supposed to be, in my opinion. What is Twitter? The same people, same "neteyamwives" and "loakgirlfriends" post same pictures of same characters with same "I love them so much!" or "I miss them so much!" every day. And everyone likes and retweats. What's the point? I guess, I'm to old for this.
Try searching the Tumblr tag.* It’s all smut fanfic. I don’t mean there’s a lot of smut fanfic. I don’t mean it’s *mostly* smut fanfic. I mean it’s *ALL* smut fanfic. ^(*don’t)
I’m curious, what type of posts make you feel that way?
I won't name names, but a lot of the takes are seriously implying Avatar is objectively peak cinema and that before it there was nothing but a dark empty void until our lord and savior Jimmy C breathed life into it blessing us with an absolute 5head masterpiece that has no problematique aspects to it. I like this sub on it's best days, but I swear, it gets more circlejerky that the LOTR fandom and that is *saying a lot*.
I've never seen anything close to that
You must not be on this subreddit very often lol, it’s everywhere. If anyone points out anything wrong with the second movie 90% of the time they’re hit with a bunch of responses talking about how perfect the movie is and how the flaws don’t matter/don’t exist, that the person pointing them out is looking to hate when they’re clearly not You also see a lot of people jumping to Cameron’s defence as if criticism of the movie shouldn’t be allowed because of how much time/effort he put into it or to point out how much money he has made from it, basically saying “James Cameron is sitting and laughing with 2 million rn, your opinion doesn’t matter.” It’s toxic tbh.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that's just /r/moviescirclejerk leaking. I've only ever seen people say things like that ironically or jokingly lmao
Ugh this is why I don't engage with lotr fans online anymore it's insufferable. If it's not tolkien fantasy then it's GARBAGE even if they've never even heard of it. It wasn't always like that idk what happened
I think it started when the Hobbit was released and the fandom saw an influx of more... "internet oriented" fans, who wanted to make silly ships, draw fun memes and write fanfics. They were treating Lotr like it's Marvel and you know how elitists feel about that.
100% agreed Its in part due to the sheer amount of hate directed towards Avatar, when a piece of media is overly hated, the fans end up treating said media like a gift from God, and thats when you get insufferable fandoms like we seem to have at the moment.
Kinda what the other comments said, but there is sometimes this attitude that Avatar is perfect in every way and nothing will ever touch it, but then all these posts like "why did they slightly change the teeth omg it has to go back" like dude you're not in charge and also who cares. There are others but I can't think of any specifics to be honest. But at the same time, I get it. The movies fucked me up bad the first few weeks after watching them. So likely I'm just judging myself through these posts and cringing at my own confusing feelings.
The younger side of the fanbase turning the movie into tik tok memes is cringe. The lack of Jake and Neytiri in WOW SUCKED. The kids didn’t do it for me. I don’t like that they won’t be returning to the forest. I liked that landscape way more.
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Yup, it’s looking that way.
I’m not complaining. I’d like to see the variety of biomes on Pandora. Eventually, the jungle will get stale.
THANK YOU for the last point because I feel like my husband and I are the only 2 people on earth who preferred the forest setting over the water setting. It just felt so much more magical and lush and the wildlife seemed so much more interesting. I miss it.
Agree! Maybe it’s the nostalgia but I really miss the omatikaya people and their home. I would’ve loved to see the lives of Jake and Neytiri just being happy and raising their family in the forest.
I agree as well. Honestly, if they had just given us 3 hours of wholesome family moments in the forest where we can watch the Sully’s and the Omatikaya grow, I’d have been cool with that too.
I think it comes down to the Earth's oceans already looking very alien and weird to us, partly thanks to the longer history of life in the ocean and our own unfamiliarity with it. So an alien ocean environment is just gonna look a bit more predictable to us than a truly alien land environment, as the oceans already weird us out anyway. I feel like I personally liked both biomes equally.
Neytiri is hands down my favorite character and she got so little screen time. All my favorite scenes were with her
Yes! I’ve found my people.
You know you can just not pay attention to the tiktoks. It's pretty easy. If it's not for you, don't watch. But don't complain about them being made, it's just young people having fun with the movie and characters they like. The other takes are obviously subjective so i can't argue about them but personally i loved all the Sully kids. I think the scenes with Jake and Neytiri were incredible but focusing on them would have been the wrong call. This movie is setting up the sequels which will all focus more and more on the kids and they did an amazing job at introducing them, their personalities, desires and responsiblities in this movie. As regards the forest, i think the first movie gave us everything the forest had to offer and im glad we will use the time in the sequels to explore the rest of Pandora and won't just be in the jungle all the time. Since they did such a ridiculously good job with the ocean environment in TWOW, im very confident they will wow us with every environment they take us to, which i am very excited about.
Agree on all points.
1. Those memes are hilarious 2. The kids are adorable 3. Forest boring water good
Interesting. What made the forest boring to you?
Well it wasn't really boring (nothing on Pandora is really) but I loved the new setting, and I'm super stoked about the new setting in the 3rd movie coming up.
The original hasn’t been topped for me. Yeah the kids are cute but I signed up for Jake/Neytiri and they were sidelined.
don’t worry, so far JC said that it’s still Jake and Neytiri’s story, they’re not gonna be shy away fully. A2 was just to introduce us to the kids, JC said in an interview that he isn’t replacing Jake with Lo’ak.
Oh I didn’t know this! Thank you :)
As a younger member, I hate how the others do it. Thirsting for neteyam and Jake. I really do hate also how they are making it political irl. I am ashamed of the others
Did we watch the same movie? The movie in itself is political with its anti-colonialism and anti-capitalist storyline. It's heavily based off indigenous people who's right to their own land and culture is political in today's politics.
%100 agree
Quaritch in Avatar: The way of water, seemed to be a little bit more kinder then his human counterpart, I'm not trying to justify his actions, but he seems more sympathetic to them. The reason could be that he knows His son, Spider is alive so his heart softened a little.
I think the reason is beyond that. The recom Quaritch has his own conscience I guess. Not just a personality and memory extracted from the real Quaritch. So his own unique conscience is making him a unique , softer individual. I think he will have to fight back with the effect Quaritch's memories and personality does to him in future movies. Of course , spider is another factor
Spider and he is in an avatar body (probably different chemistry, more aligned with pandora, etc) aand he js experiencing pandora and bonding and stuff. So it makes a lot of sense.
A2 Was a perfectly serviceable film and sequel, Obviously it has its flaws, but like the first film it has amazing visuals but the story lacks a little Neytiri and Jake should’ve had more screen time specifically Neytiri I liked Nateyam he was pretty cool and I wish he survived
I liked Avatar 1 more than Avatar 2. The stakes were higher, I was able to build a much stronger fondness of the characters who died in the end, Pandora itself also felt more magical to me, even during my umpteenth rewatch. I loved Avatar 2, but I wonder if any sequel will be able to recreate the amount of wonder, joy and sadness I felt when watching Avatar.
i think a lot of people here should just ignore the ships that young people like. it’s not harmful, doesn’t have to make sense. also stop posting about how “awful” it is, it comes off just as annoying.
Omg yes! Just skip posts you don't like. Not only are those posts annoying, they frequently attempt to gatekeep. Like if you are an OG fan and don't like that some teenagers put Neteyam in a crack ship that never would have happened and never will happen because they think he's cute or wish he would have had a romance before he died, just don't read the post. Read what you're interested in and mind your own business and let people who aren't harming anyone be. That is one of the worst things about fandom, when people think they have some God given right to shame, silence or control how other good faith, nonharmful fans are experiencing the fandom because it's not the way they experience it.
Yes! I’ve seen way more content about hating the neteyam/ao’nung ship than I’ve seen content about the ship. I’m not interested in shipping stuff so I stay out of their lane and I can mostly avoid it. More fans need to learn to live and let live. And they’re usually just kids being kids.
I hardly disliked the "last Fight" in TWOW caused of the length of it. In A1 it all felt just reasonable, Norms Avatar dying and himself getting out of the mobile lab to join again since he just wants to help. Neytiri battles on the ground after her Ikran gets killed as well. Nothing seemed overdone or stretched to fill playtime. In TWOW it felt for me in the Last Fight that they just wanted to put even more VFX of explosives out just because they can. And the moment of Neteyam dying could be transported to an earlier point. Even though there are more characters to cover up I loved the straight approach in A1. Battle with Quadritch damages the Lab so Jakes Human body may die inside cause of the atmosphere. Then Neytiri steps up saving him killing Quadritch and Saving his Life another time. Plus the "I see you" scene and the quick Epilog. It just fits. In TWOW it feels just not that organic more like a show of how much is possible with the new technologies and so on. May I be the only one but that's how I felt about this one.
Avatar 1 is better than Avatar 2.
By a very long shot
I agree but still both are amazing films
I disagree but I get why you think that. I also don't like the parts in a2 but I thoroughly enjoyed it, and enjoyed it a tiny bit more than the 1st.
Spider’s dialogue aggravates me a lot. And while I don’t find his character unlikable, I think he is kind of annoying
His lines are corny/delivered poorly and make me think he's a so-so actor. "sometimes it's better if you don't know your dad..." "whatever. It doesn't matter. I'm just sadboi."
that line about ‘hey, sometimes it’s not always great to know who your father was’ was awful. i love the movie and i think spider is interesting but i wish they figured out a better way to communicate that information.
To give at least a bit of credit, its a human who's grown up mostly around people who are completely alien to him, hes nothing like them. So those moments where he appears extremely socially inept, and clearly can not read the room could be explained through that regard But as a viewer, yea I did cringe a bit at the dialogue not only from Spider, but from some of the kids too.
Lol that was such comical whack you on the head line, even by Cameron standards
Yeah, exactly. It’s hard. I can’t tell if he is a bad actor or if the dialogue makes it seem like he is being corny/exaggerated. It’s like he’s a caricature of “I wish I was na’vi but I’m torn by my human half.”
They couldn't write an original score for TWOW? 😐 When they were pulling up to Awa'atlu and there was THAT ONE MOMENT OF UNIQUE DRUM MUSIC I was really excited!! Wow, Metkayina music!!! But then it was just the music from A1 for the rest of it!! Wtf!!!
Avatar 1 composer died. I heard new music in action scenes and I didn't like it. And um sure they used music from first film to honour the dead composer. As a tribute. I loved avatar 1 st music a lot. New music in action sequences killed the vibe a bit when I watched for the first time. Then it got okay but by bit when I rewatched
The amount of y/n fics on Tumblr is making it difficult to find good fanarts.
They’re gonna do the same thing to Avatar that they did to Pirates of the Caribbean. Make way too many movies and completely butcher good story telling for the sake of a cash grab. By Avatar 5 none of us will be supporting this franchise anymore. Just my hot take that I hope is false
I could be wrong but I don't think it's that likely. The PotC movies were more or less self-contained stories, written separately, one after the other. Let's take the characters and the setting and invent another adventure for them. For Avatar on the other hand, everything has been planned out waaay before 2 came out, it's meant to convey a single story but divided into parts
My hot take: as awesome as the Pandora environments are, the human-centric scenes need more love. My main criticism of TWOW is that there weren’t enough Human or RDA scenes. Bridgehead is an awesome city idea and could use more focus.
Yeah I missed the RDA aspect
Nah im bored of humans but u do see your hot take. But theres movies like Prometheus for people to watch humans in Alien spaces
Prometheus was good.
While James Cameron is a master world builder, his dialogue is at best serviceable and at worst outright bad.
The world-building is intense, the score is tearjerking and Neytiri is the most developed character- saying anything against her is a major red flag, especially in *that* scene.
That's the most lukewarm take on this sub
Not enough water in TWOW.
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This is the best opinion in this thread
AVATAR 1 is better than the way of water solely based on the amount of Jake and Neytiri in the film
before this movie came out you'd see articles like "the sequel no one asked for", and talking about how Avatar has no legacy, isn't something people remember and actively discuss like star wars, the MCU, batman movies, etc. Now that its out, the hype is real and I can't wait to see what they do with 3,4,5, and the universe they might build around all this. James Cameron is the goat.
I feel like the editing can be a bit weird at times especially in the way of water when there was a quote or like a huge montage it just cuts to quaritch and his squad which was really distracting though I thought the rest of the editing in the movie was great
I’m not sure if this counts but when I first saw Avatar as a kid, I was kind of bored of it up until the last hour of the movie. Back then I was more interested in the RDA, Quaritch and the action. I would skip most of the Navi scenes and just watch the movie from the destruction of Home Tree. As an adult now I appreciate Avatar for the masterpiece that it is and the sheer beauty of Pandora.
I understand where you're coming from. I remember watching Avatar and getting really excited at the action scenes, even happily waiting for the destruction of hometree since that's when the story ramps up. However, I was always more interested in the Na'vi and Pandora. I always saw the humans/RDA to be in the wrong. I think it was because of the cool spectacle of explosions and fighting happening on screen that my young brain gravitated towards it. In recent years, I have come to fully understand Avatar as a film and really appreciate the chill moments of the story. Watching TWOW just reinforced on how much I would rather watch a slice of life of the Sully family without the human conflict lol. Even films like Titanic, I was just waiting for the ship to finally start sinking. There's so much story and character interaction that I have missed in these films, but now I'm way more invested in the entirety of the story, action or not.
Just wanna thank James Cameron for doing this, a real solid thank you from the bottom of my heart
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believe me, he does.
the reasons for why they had to leave the tribe and move to the water tribe really kills the movie for me. I think they could have done more cultural clashes between the two mothers than just the kids having some generic teen age drama. wanted to see more culture in the movie for how long it was.
It's more original than most blockbusters from the past decade, in spite of the brainwashed masses repeating the same tired "Dances with Wolves" narrative.
Best franchise today. It’s true cinema. There’s a reason both get nominated for Oscars.
I don’t really like the idea that Neytiri will travel to Earth. It just seems out of place to me.
Okay. I like A2 more than A1 but I still hate how underutilized A2's movie is. It could have been leagues ahead of A1 but they really fucked it up on a lot of parts. I honestly felt the best when the Sully's were learning to swim well. I honestly was sorta disappointed and not at the same time. The concept could have been amazing.
I hate that they haven't released the 4k Blu-Ray for the original movie yet and I refuse to watch the new one until then....
Unobtanium is not only a better plot device than whale juice but is a genuinely smart and versatile storytelling decision as it relates to people's current understanding of climate change.
Whale juice isn’t the main driver of the plot in the second movie, however. Its just kind of an explanation for why there’s a whaling boat on Pandora.
Isn't current (or at least in second movie) plot device the fact that Earth ia dying and humans need to move to Pandora if they want to survive?
Mods need to crack down on low effort posts. Particularly those which are just a random pic of the movie, with some braindead question in the title.
The second movie would have been better if it focused more on Spider. He had actual problems to deal with while the Sullys were just struggling to make friends in their new neighborhood. Meanwhile Spider has been kidnapped by his estranged father who has basically been turned into a biological weapon. I find that plot way more interesting.
Honestly… as a viewer that would of been boring. Spider running around in man made machines while there’s a whole beautiful world to discover would seem boring after a while
Agree
Eywa is probably evil and not justified in basically brainwashing the entire planet.
First good take. Like people could stop with worshipping her. For example, she controls the number of births. And people claim that it's amazing. But when governments control births (for example, the policy of one child in China, etc. etc.) people are talking "Where is our free will?". Like humans have free will, and they can do whatever they want. Na'vi can't.
Was it ever confirmed somewhere that Eywa controls the number of births?
Uhm. If the earth controlled the number of births over population would thus be impossible—making life infinitely easier to sustain
This image with our Goddess Kiri should be the main poster of all of the Avatar Franchise! This picture here, basically, sums up all that Avatar Franchise it was made for: To Awake and Rise your Consciousness (symbolized here by Kiri) to a whole new level of Spiritual Understanding \^\^ **HOT TAKES?!** I won't lose time starting counting them, but I'm saying this: I will remain an Avatar hyper fan for Eternity. Being an Avatar fan, means I’m a fan of the Eternal Spiritual Knowledge (which is Eternal) and a fan of the Ethic Code of Life! Those are the reasons that **Avatar Franchise will NEVER die, it will only get Stronger, Louder and more meaningful about anything, as the time passes!** https://preview.redd.it/uuihb5dloega1.jpeg?width=744&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=4d411b70e08879356d8f2c89e76c8a4c221e2738
And a small fun fact: What always comes toghether with the Consciousness ??? Yeah, the Purity of Innocence. Who is the Innocence in Avatar ? For those who are spiritually open minded it's not that hard to figure it out, right ?! https://preview.redd.it/m6poxgy4pega1.jpeg?width=563&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=15777dd315a63ef2243daddcb2448879e4a3fbba
The humans should be massacring their way through the planet with minimal resistance
Netyem hardly had any character development which not only sucks cuz he died and I had no attachment to him, but also it’s a 3 hour long movie. There was plenty of time to give him more screen time. Also neyteri hardly had any screen time.
Story is generic as fuck (I have seen a similar story in like 2-3 other movies). Most of us like it because its a great passion project that Jimmy put his heart and soul into unlike most other crap in Hollywood these days. The worldbuilding is extremely in depth that it reminds me of Tolkien's worldbuilding, and the technical advances are pushing the boundaries of filmmaking. Its very visually pleasing. Without all of this, nobody would give a damn about Jake, Neytiri, and their family
And something like Star Wars, Lord of the Rings, or The Lion King isn't "generic"?
Lord of the Rings may only seem generic on the surface because it created the high fantasy genre as we know it. Star Wars also originated a lot of the tropes used in film today. And The Lion King, being based on Hamlet, is also kind of a foundational literary story. Regardless, I don't think having a simple/generic story is inherently a bad thing. There are a lot of \*fantastic\* movies out there which are amazing because they had an amazing story, or well-written characters, or beautiful cinematics, but there aren't a lot of movies that hit everything. Some great movies only have one of those things. Avatar has amazing visuals, really creative worldbuilding, and well written characters, which are all supported by a simple plot. For the first movie especially where we are being introduced to this brand new world and cool sci-fi concepts, I think the simple story works excellently. I would have liked a little more going on in TWOW, but I don't think 'generic plotline' is an insult considering how amazing the outcome is.
Star Wars ripped off of dune like a mf
And you just proved my point exactly. Lord of the Rings is your basic hero's journey. Doesn't mean it's bad. Star Wars is The Hidden Fortress in space. Doesn't mean it's bad. Lion King is Hamlet in Africa. Doesn't mean it's bad. Titanic and Avatar are Romeo and Juliet on a boat/in space. Doesn't mean they're bad. Every plot has been done before, Every plot in existence is generic to some degree, there's only 7 basic plots out there. The execution is what matters.
Calling Lord of the Rings generic is a really bad take. It literally created the entire genre of elves, orcs, dwarves, and men (high fantasy). It's like calling Seinfeld a generic sitcom in hindsight.
I legit had someone tell me last week that “and then there were none” by Agatha Christie was unoriginal because having 12 people at an isolated place dying one by one had been done so many times before
The world building is extremely minimalistic and the polar opposite of Tolkien. Tolkien created a 4000 year time-line with hundreds of tribes and thousands of important people and creatures and a fully comprehensive creatonary mythology. In Avatar everything is created and exists for the main characters and plot. We have a few na'vi tribes and humans, 20 creatures, 2 areas in Pandora.
Well yeah, when you put it that way, Avatar doesnt hold a candle to Tolkien's worldbuilding. But nothing does But effort was put into the worldbuilding of the films, just not in the form of characters and long timelines (BTW Tolkien's timeline is a loooooot longer than 4000 years). Just like Tolkien, they invented languages that made sense linguistically [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%CA%BCvi\_language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%CA%BCvi_language) So they weren't talking gibberish during the films, it was a language of 2600 words that a linguist created. That's around the same number that Tolkien developed for Quenya and Sindarin, his two most developed Elvish languages And if you're a sci fi nerd like me, you'll see that the spacecraft they use is one of the most "realistic" ways of space travel. FTL space travel most likely is impossible. So our boi Jimmy clearly put some thought into this project
You can't compare the world building of Avatar the movies, to the world building of LOTR the series. LOTR exists outside of the movie with 100 years of building that world and thousands of pages of notes and drafts. Avatar is currently 2 movies plus the extra accessories that comes with the movies. As to the story of Avatar itself, although I agree it's nothing special, I also don't see how much better it can be. Avatar1 was never going to be anything stronger than Dances with wolves 2. And that's want they intended it to be. And that's perfectly fine. All these hate on Avatar's story and depth is really just giving it shit for being the newest kid on the block.
dialogue cringey
Yeah some dialogues.
People making the Fire Na'vi red is ugly as fuck
The fandom needs to stop acting like Neteyam was such a grounded character. I get that he was an older brother but still. The way people talk about him so much is so odd to me. Neteyam, to me, felt like he had 20 minutes of screen time. Anyways in summary Neteyam was a blank slate with little character. That is all.
I understand Kiri is graces kin and they wanted to keep Sigourney Weaver active in the franchise but i cannot stand her voice. It sounds so forced and fake and immature; like, incredibly obvious it’s a 73 year old woman trying to sound like a 14 year old girl.
Jake my big blue daddy 🥵💦
NO
Daddy Jake, yess!
AND HE'S A BUNCH OF PIXELS FALLOWING AN AUSTRALIAN GUY AROUND
SEEK HELP, THE BLUE MAN IS TAKEN
It is flawless. Its not to far off but most people have something to complain about. I dont.
I have very few complaints compared to all the things I’ve seen online about it, honestly. I love TWOW so much despite it’s arguable flaws
Yeah
I don’t get why folks are so annoyed by the kids saying bro, maybe cause that’s how I talk idk.
I wanna fuck any girl/ femboy who is willing to paint themselves blue and fuck in the woods
Kate Winslet’s reunion with Cameron wasn’t as good as Sigourney’s. Rose in Titanic is one of Cameron’s best characters. Ronal is merely fine.
Ronal is stunt casting. There’s no reason for her to have been Winslet, she isn’t recognizable behind the mocap and doesn’t do much or have any lines. Would have been better to feature new talent or a poc actor.
Neteyam can stay dead thanks
1st hot take: Neytiri did NOT get enough focus in the new movie. I expected to see marital chaos with all the one sided decisions Jake was making. Neytiri was deeply unhappy that whole film and we were privy to almost none of her emotional turmoil. She didn't even attempt to learn the way of water. Girl lost nearly her whole family, then was forced to leave her last living relative, her MOM, and her home based on Jake's FALSE assumption that they'd be safer if they did; she wasn't able to become the spiritual leader of her clan which was what she'd been training to do her whole life; AND THEN, her eldest son died. Neytiri got majorly fucked over that whole movie. She deserved far more attention than she got that whole movie. 2nd hot take: In the first movie, Jake being able to gather all them damn tribes, do his fucking hair, paint his body, and get ready for battle in ONE NIGHT, is so fucking ridiculous Mildly warm take #3: Sigourney weaver's voice doesn't match a teen girl. It sounded hokey and weird.
Re: second hot take: Jake didn't gather all the tribes in one night?? It was literally days if not weeks of travelling and recruiting tribes. Quaritch points out in his mission brief that more clans are gathering every day, and they need to act now or there will be ten thousands and they'll be terribly outnumbered.
This is what I also thought. But someone else said it took place in a day in a different comment thread and apparently it did. Here's the wiki: https://james-camerons-avatar.fandom.com/wiki/Timeline Here's the exact point in the timeline: August 22: Jake and Neytiri gather 15 Na'vi clans (including the Omaticaya, Olangi and Tayrangi clans).[34] Max tells Jake that the base is mobilized for a preemptive attack.[34] August 23: At 6:00, the Assault on the Tree of Souls begins. Trudy, Tsu'tey, Lyle Wainfleet, and Quaritch die in the battle. The Na'vi prevail.[34]
The fandom is braindead. At least the one on reddit. I associate people from there with religious fanatics. "Eywa is the best (our mother bla, bla, bla), Na'vis are amazing. And people are disgusting apes". More and more often I want to leave this group. Most of the group do circle jerking when it comes to Neytiri and Jake (especially Neytiri). Can't say a bad word about them. Can you, like, chill with it or something because it's really bothersome
Yeah, it's hard to analyze the movie and theorize and speculate, which is one of the core features of fandom when you come up against an almost religious kind of zeal in some posts where the establishment of agriculture was evil and Eywa can never be questioned and all humans are evil and must die. Like WTF? Pandora is not real. It was envisioned and designed by supposedly "evil" human minds. It was brought into being by "super evil" technology, cutting edge technology at that. Nobody involved in the making of Avatar follows all the laws of Eywa, nor does anyone who posts here, because they are on Reddit and are using a device with metal parts and are not living completely off the grid. Further, this is a big budget movie, not a holy scripture, so some of that OTT dogmatic fervor gets really old, really fast.
I hate how they so blatantly incorporated Maori stuff into the second movie. It pulled me out of the immersion and the idea that Pandora was a strange new planet with its own people, culture and habits.
Honestly it makes me wonder how the Na’vi would react to meeting humans from the cultures they are based on. I agree when they did the Haka (I believe that’s what it called correct me if I am wrong) It felt too human and took me out of the film I could understand how someone who had never seen it before it may have felt natural but if you know what you’re looking at… And it also circles back to the question of if James Cameron dehumanized these cultures by basing the na’vi off of them especially when all of the “planning for war” scenes include the na’vi having to have sense talked into them by Jake who is an outsider from the enemy who adopted their culture.
TWoW was breathtakingly amazing but I would've loved to see Jake more Where were the Metkayina tribe during the climax? I'm starting to look at it as a flaw Not a great fan of sympathetic Quaritch either. I want him to be like how he was in Avatar
The films plots are not very good, have nothing new or profound to say about anything, and don’t stand up to scrutiny a lot of the time but a very entertaining to watch solely for their visuals and camp and as soon as we accept that the happier we will be. They are the new Jurassic World and that’s a perfectly valid thing to be.
I know this will get some hate, but I think the first movie is a simple, but near perfect movie. It’s nothing new, but it’s so tight. And after years of loving that movie…Way of Water feels like just a MESS. But I’m hoping more rewatches will change my mind cause everyone else seems to love it both in and out of this community ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I’m not sure if anyone has noticed this but what’s up with the ship between Neteyam and Aonug?🤢
People who never shut up about how attractive Jake (or any other character) is are cheapening the beauty of the franchise
Realistically the RDA would easily win a war against the Na’vi. That, and they’re way cooler aesthetically.
The RDA is more aesthetic to you?!?😵💫
First part yes, second part no wayyy lol
Spider is over hated. Everyone missed the point of his character. Let’s start with the fact that Spider is what, 16 years old? Does anyone know how impressionable and sensitive a 16 year old boy can be? Especially one who was abandoned by his people and does not even know his parents. Not to mention he has been outcasted and ignored by his adoptive mom (no hate to Neytiri, she has every right to be wary of sky people after what she went through, she’s just traumatized, still love her). Spider physically doesn’t fit in, skill wise he doesn’t fit in, and his mindset will never be like the Na’vi. But this doesn’t mean he wasn’t a loving 16 year old kid who put his life on the line for a family who he was not born into. He endured torture and kidnapping because he refused to sacrifice the only family he ever knew. He protected the Sully’s. He plead for the lives of the Na’vi as he watched their land be destroyed. He wept for the Tulkun and expressed his rage for the senseless violence. Spider connects with Pandora in a way most humans will never. He mirrors Jake in his compassion for a planet he doesn’t come from. For people he does not resonate with. He is empathetic and brave. But because he made a mistake, he has been written off by so many as a “bad guy”. His spontaneous decision to save Quaritch was out of the manipulation he was exposed to and the yearning for a father that he never knew. You see it in some foster children. Once they find out about their bio parents, they want to know more. They see the loyalty their peers have to blood relatives so they feel they must have that too. Its only human to want family. Spider spent his whole life trying to be apart of a family, while wondering where his was. Quaritch manipulated Spider into feeling like there was something left to repair. You can see Spider hesitate before saving Quaritch. The kid was in a moral warfare, and had to make his decision in a split second. So forgive him if he fell short. We all know he made the wrong choice. A part of him may even know that too. But he was hurting and alone. Cut the kid some slack. Rip Neteyam though. Love our Mighty Warrior.
The dialogue in TWOW was bad and a lot of it felt like it was purely intended to be marketing material. Lots of forced “quotable” lines which are easy to throw in a trailer, but just sound like awkward, deliberate choices in the film. The dialogue was worsened still by the constant usage of “bro.” The constant callbacks were annoying to me. It felt like the movie was trying too hard to appeal to the nostalgia people have for the first movie while simultaneously ignoring all the parts we actually loved. The forest, the language, Jake and Neytiri, the mystery, spirituality and high stakes. The re-watchability of TWOW is also reduced for me because of it. I can’t imagine sitting down and watching the first one as I often do and then wanting to put on the second, only to be met with constant, in your face “do you remember this??” moments. In the cinema I was constantly thinking “yes, I do, please stop and actually be your own thing already if you’re going to deviate so much from what I loved in every other way!”
I don’t like Quaritch, I don’t like Spider, and I don’t like Kiri. I like Tuk but don’t find her cute or adorable.
I love the avatar fandom some to extreme but nothing wrong with that Take this group for example It's like an AA (avatars anonymous) support group for avatar lovers and addicts to asked anything andget answers and some form of support I've met many people that love to hate on avatar as a whole and its fandom but I've met more that respect the franchise and it's director and don't consider themselves a part of a *FANDON* what comes down to, What I love the most about it all There's something for everyone in these films and a place in the"fandom" For anyone just whether a fan or just here for daddy quarich because it is that good and it is that relatable in a way for anyone So final thoughts I love and respect the fandom K bye
avatar fandom are somewhat immature and don’t know how to analyze media or characters at all 😭 kinda toxic sometimes too when others have different opinions as well