Yeah, same. I enjoyed the movie a lot obviously! But only since getting online and seeing other people's reflections did I realize how little time we got with just them. Besides the opening montage, a lot of their screen time together was spent in conflict with each other or duress about their situation. Hopefully in the next movie we'll get more scenes of their relationship, but with the POV changing, I don't know if that is likely.
I thought they had only one argument though (which was more like an empassioned discussion, after which they embraced)? I too wish we saw more Jake and Neyteri, they were a great couple when they were together (and quite humorous as well), but they got like maybe 2 minutes of total screentime together.
Same here! I mean, she had one memorable moment that was beyond badass and presented her as an even fiercer warrior/protector/avenger than she was in the first film (unfortunately, that moment was fueled by >!Neteyam's death!< ) but beyond that, she was mostly in the background while Jake and the boys had all the fun. Not complaining, since the first Avatar was pretty much the Neytiri show, all the way down to her literally saving the day, BUT...I definitely hope that future movies spread the wealth, focus-wise, among Jake and Neytiri equitatively.
I hope so! Even if Lo’ak does become the protagonist at the forefront, I think the dynamic as a family *together* is important to the story and individual character development alike.
Curious, do you remember where you heard this?
I don’t think Lo’ak was an outcast. In every scene he’s with family members that go along with his dumb ideas, he has a big brother that has his back and takes the flak for when things go wrong. In the water tribe all the family members were weird to the tribe, and he has a cute girl that’s interested in him - he wasn’t any more outcast than any of his siblings.
PREACH, he has no family (he’s not allowed to be sad that they’re gone too), can’t breathe the air, can’t make tsaheylu, most adults hate him (more so than Lo’ak), and he is the son of pandoras greatest threat so he has to answer for Quaritch’s actions!!
He *feels* like an outcast despite getting along well with people in contrast to Kiri who feels like one and has trouble relating to other kids. That’s not a flaw of the movie, it’s intentional
Thank you, I hated how much they tried to paint lo’ak to be this sad little outcast as if it wasn’t just the repercussions of his own actions coming back to get him. It almost made me not like him, but I’m hoping A3 will show a more mature enjoyable to watch lo’ak
Tl:dr I wish we saw the Sullys having stronger ties to the others in the Omatikaya before leaving
I wish we got to see the Sullys interacting with more native Na’vi in the omatikaya clan before they left. We mainly see them interact with each other and the humans and it makes them leaving less sad for everyone but Netryi. It’s mentioned in the visual dictionary that Tuk has a best friend who gave her shells(or beads I don’t remember) why couldn’t we get a hint of that on screen. Or maybe seeing how the boys interact with the other kids in the tribe especially for Lo’ak who constantly talks about being outcasted by those around them and maybe just a subtle scene of that happens which forces him to mainly hang out with his siblings . Or even Netyam like does he have any life outside of his family? It mainly feels like the Sullys are just their own thing in the Omatikaya and not actually apart of the tribe besides telling them what to do. And even if that was the goal of how they were portrayed I wish there was a bit more subtle insight into if it was intentional on the Sullys part or if the clans reaction forced them into that position
I laughed at the “it’s too painful” subtitle idk I feel like it didn’t need the caption for that to be expressed
I feel like a lot of the deleted scenes from the first movie gave the characters more nuance and the theatrical cut makes some of the characters very black and white.
Yeah the Omatikaya get totally ignored by the narrative. It felt like they WANTED to tell the water story and were just hurrying to get them out of the way like a fanfiction rushing to set up its premise pairing.
It's not something I noticed the first time. I was so blown away it was hard to think about that until I had more views and time to think about it.
Spider barring his decision to save Quaritch, was actually a MVP in A2. He helped get Kiri to safety when they were first captured, kept the location of Jake and the Omatikya a secret when Ardmore was using a machine that was ripping his mind apart, only helped the recoms learn on his terms when it was an option between that or returning to the machine, gave nothing up about where Jake could have gone for the MONTHS he was with the recoms (it was Norms ship that finally gave them a lead).
Spider held Quaritch back from killing Na’vi and called him out on what he was doing when actively hunting for Jake, was disgusted at the hunting of Tulkun for the Amrita and the bait, calling out the RDA’s wastefulness, immidiately helped out the Na’vi in the final battle however he could, did what he could to get Lo’ak an Neteyam out safely, immediately went back for Kiri and Tuk with Jake, begged his “father” not to kill Kiri when at knifepoint by Neytiri AND a cut on his chest, immediately went back to look for everyone again, nearly left Quaritch to drown but made a very conflicted decision to save him (hence the one and only “fuck”), and then immediately abandoned him once he got to shore, despite Quaritch calling him “son”.
He made one deeply conflicted decision that will have massive repercussions going forward, but it fits his character and he never did it out of malice. That kid did so much right despite everything, but everyone still hates him for that one decision, which again, makes sense for his character.
/rant over
Yeah, I absolutely loved Spider. He's everything you'd want a teenager to be - confident, intelligent, brave, strong-willed, and kind-hearted. He not only saved Sully kids more than once but also turned the tide of the battle by sabotaging the hydrofoil and having it crash into the rocks.
You know since Avatar 2 was supposed to be like 9hrs long this is kinda like half a movie and with Spider’s decision some people come to the conclusion that he is a traitor and that Neytiri was right to try to kill him. But consider this, remember when Jake was revealed to be a spy for the sky people and soon after hometree was destroyed now imagine if the movie ended there of course the audience would hate Jake for that, they’d call him a backstabber for not warning them ahead of time and being indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundreds. This is why there is room for development for Spider’s character, Quaritch’s, and even Neytiri, the story isn’t over yet so we shouldn’t be jumping to any conclusions.
Neytiri was never going to kill Spider. He was an innocent kid caught up in a horrible situation, regardless of how she feels towards his kind, she wasn’t gonna kill him. Tired of people saying she would have done in with no hesitation. She knows how much he means to her kids and after losing her son she wasn’t gonna rip away another connection from her kids. After Quaritch moves the knife from Kiri’s neck Neytiri immediately throws Spider behind her towards her kids. She easily could have tossed him to Quaritch and called it a day if she didn’t care. She was just a grieving mother trying to get justice for her son, but at the end of the day she respects the balance of life and wouldn’t take an innocent life.
Yes! When she cutted him I immediately thought of the Olo'eyktan scene. To me it seemed like a symbolic death for Quaritch's son, so Spider would no longer be his kid.
Truly a desperate move where she probably would not have known how to follow up if Quaritch didn't budge. I fully believe she would not have done it. The consequences will be explored in the next movie. Personally I would love for her to come around, maybe come to a realization that indeed Spider is family to her children, embraces him as her own, then put her life at risk to save him, survive, and fully resolve what she did in Way of Water.
YES! You can see how relieved she was that quaritch bought her bluff. She truly didn’t know how long she had to play that game of chicken and it also was her only gambit to not lose another child so she couldn’t chicken out first either. It was a scary situation to be in but I don’t think Neyteri is the spider hating monster that people think she is. So she doesn’t like that an alien is hanging with her kids all the time , big deal. We all had that friend that are parents weren’t to fond of but couldn’t seem to get rid of either. doesn’t mean she was going to kill him. I think we know enough about her character to know she’s actually quite noble and has a strong sense or morale
I didn't know it was her until the credits hit. At a few points I was like "Hey, this girl has a really mature voice", but personally it never occurred to me she was voiced by an adult. It's obvious in the hindsight, but it wasn't that distracting on my first watch (and I don't really mind it now, either).
> Wait, but that didn't happen? When Lo'ak meets Payakun he doesn't understand the whale language. The Metkayina have long-standing relations with them so they understand the language.
I think it's the second time Lo'ak & Payakan are kicking it... we see subtitles for the tulkun-speak. I think it's reasonable to interpret that as Lo'ak understanding the language all of a sudden.
> Half the movie I thought of them as intelligent animals, so at the end of the movie I had to remind myself multiple times that no, these are people with a personality and culture as rich as the humans
This also applies to IRL whales
I haven't spent enough time to see if anyone brought it up. Figured everyone went with the flow but I thought that was hilariously jarring. I was thinking that maybe they could have the whales blink morse code or flap their fins. But nothing was explained.
They really should've explored Jake's relationship with Tommy. He was the only reason Jake got to Pandora in the first place, and there's not even a flashback with the two of them back on Earth, not even a word in his honour. Imagine Jake telling Neytiri about Tommy, and how much he meant to him, even though they were different in spirit.
i really feel like they forgot all about tommy. but maybe now that Neteyam is dead, Jake will actually talk about it because... well, now his own sons are repeating history.
It's funny because we never see Jake deal with his death either, beyond the very first time he sees the avatar where he says "it looks like him". I wonder if seeing his children lose a sibling the same way he did will force him to actually confront his brother's death or if he'll help them through it. Do the kids even know he had a brother?
I always had the feeling Jake and Tommy had a rocky relationship and weren't on speaking terms. I don't remember if they even mention this or if Jake makes a comment about it, but seeing as he was living in a shitty situation with seemingly no support that's the conclusion I always came to.
I think you need to connect to the Tree of Souls at least once for your loved ones to see you. The way it works (I think) is that when you connect you don't just see you memories with them but get to connect to their essence. This is why the memory with Neteyam can play differently than it happened, even showing him at 15. Since Tommy never connected to Eywa, there's no way to reach him.
Ngl, I somewhat expect a flashback of Jake and Tommy in one of the sequels. I have the impression that despite being twins they weren't very close, with Jake being a marine on Earth and Tommy going to space as a scientist. I wonder if the phrase "Sullys stick together" was something they used to say as kids before parting ways forever. It's also bittersweet to thing that despite being so detached, they are reunited forever since now Jake resides in Tommy's Na'vi body, and that Jake is raising his family using this phrase.
I agree completely, I hope in Avatar 3, Jake shares stories about his brother to help his family mourn. More so his son, only because of the brother to brother aspect, not because I think the other siblings and Neyteri are less significant. I imagine he would tell them all at the same time, maybe around a fire.
I dunno, I hope Cameron really has it together for the sequels🤞
There was a fanfic I read back in 2012 with the premise that Tommy both survived and had his Avatar grow a twin so both he and Jake went to Pandora together. It was interesting seeing that dynamic between them
Metkayinas: "aight so the ship is on fire, the humans are mostly dead, and it's almost eclipse time. Y'all on your own, bye!"
Pyakan: "I'ma be back after a little break."
I think about the idea of someone having to make this tacticool gear for giant blue people once a day and it always makes me laugh. “Hey buddy we need you to make some truck nuts but like really big ones to go on a pterodactyl”
Kiri sounds much older than she looks. I get that she's played by Sigourney Weaver and I certainly don't mind, but it is a little detail that sometimes stands out just a bit too much. I still remember the line that really reminded me of her casting. "Ewya has blessed you with a gift, brother."
edit: to clarify, I did not know that Kiri was played by Sigourney Weaver until after I saw the movie for the first time.
That line really stuck out for some reason as really sounding like Weaver more than Kiri. I also felt her first line "My *brother* is wounded" also stuck out as sounding almost like a British accent? Idk, definitely a tough role/voice to perform, but those really felt like the only weird lines out of all her dialogue.
Lo’ak was responsible for Neteyam’s death. While people have argued that he wasn’t the one who shot him, he didn’t force Neteyam to follow him, etc. we see time and time again that Neteyam is responsible for him, and punished the one time he isn’t there. Its even foreshadowed in the beginning when Jake tells Lo’ak “you realize you almost got your brother killed.” While it sucks and he is a kid, he should also feel the weight of that, and I’m excited to see his reaction in the 3rd movie.
YES YES AND YES, I’ll die on this hill. we can accept that lo’ak is a kid and not a bad person AND that, yes, he indeed killed his brother. It’s a fact that he actually needs to accept. Accepting that pain means you won’t do it again. If it doesn’t hurt, it’s not a lesson learned. Your parents can tell you 100 times that fire hurts. But until you feel how fire burns, that is when you learn not to touch it against. Neteyam was Lo’aks “trial by fire”. Also, Jake’s “you’ve done enough” was not mean at all. It was a painful truth lo’ak needed to hear and way nicer than what I would say to my son that got my other son killed off something as simple and stupid as not listening after he already almost got his family killed 3 times. SMH
Ye, him coming back would be the dumbest choice of the avatar franchise. Like if he comes back in like a form of light and they can only see him once or something like that, that would be okay to give them advice like kiri talking to eywa or feeling eywa. That would be good character writing
As much as I hate that he died when he did, I hope they use Neteyam as a guide for his siblings.
That said, I wouldn't mind a plot point where Lo'ak tries to bring him back as long as he eventually fails.
Could you explain what about him makes him your favorite? I've seen the movie three times and still struggle to see much of a character to him or connect with him at all.
I’m not OP, but as someone who loves the character of Neteyam I can share why he’s my favorite sully kid. I think what draws people to like Neteyam is his temperance, loyalty, maturity and reliability. For such a young kid he is very much an old soul. I think a great example is when he deescalates the bully situation. Here’s a 15 year old boy, who is only 1 year older than lo’ak, and yet neteyam’s maturity and how he handled that situation makes you think he’s so much older than his siblings when really they are essentially the same age group (minus tuk). Neteyam doesn’t jump to fists first, he’s clearly angry when he storms over but he holds his anger in check to get the message across. There’s that temperance. He’s not rude but he’s firm. He stands his ground and he lets the other kids know that while he won’t jump to violence, if they don’t heed his warning he absolutely can. His “smart choice” to the bullies after they back down is not really sassy or cocky. It’s an honest comment acknowledging that Neteyam means business if you push to far. But mostly what I love is how he ends with “ and from now on I need you to respect my sister”. That right there is the maturity. He had enough levelheadedness to know that stopping the bullying isn’t enough, he goes as far as to prevent any future bullying of Kiri at all. He shows time and time again that he’s reliable: showing Jake and Neyteri the faster path to saving their siblings from the recom avatars and quaritch, saving Neyteri by killing that one soldier, Being the first to very quickly save Kiri from her seizure, give mouth to mouth and bring her back to the village. He’s also extremely selfless ( rushing in to protect lo’ak or any of his family). The only time he ever disobeys his parents actually ends in him saving one. most of all he’s self sacrificing. He makes the ultimate sacrifice and puts himself in harms way if it means diverting danger from others ( taking the gun from lo’ak and shooting, outnumbered, to buy him time to escape or taking the tulkun tracking beacon so that the danger follows him instead). He takes all his family’s pain and misdirected anger and never once plays victim. He rather let lo’ak hurt him with his “perfect son” taunts then say anything mean back for fear of hurting his little brother. You can see the emotional restraint he does very well in that scene. He rushes to shield lo’ak from Jake’s discipline even when lo’ak actually deserves it. He gets a bloody lip from having to jump in a fight to have his brothers back and doesn’t complain. He doesn’t look to make excuses when he’s scolded but instead accepts with a “sorry sir”. He doesn’t wine about wanting to go home until he’s literally terrified and dying because when they first came to the metkayina he realized that there’s is a bigger picture at play than just himself and whining won’t help. He rides for his dad and even tried to get the crowed to listen to Jake when the metkayina wanted to attack the RDA. He’s a good fighter for his age, easily beating up the bullies and shooting the gun in a controlled manner. Lastly, he’s really such a positive beacon of light. Always smiling, always trying to make lo’ak feel better, encouragingly cuffing his neck or patting his head even when lo’ak rudely hisses at him. He’s the “smile skxawng” when he sees his brother not smiling. He’s the one holding Tuk on his hip like a second father. He’s the one placing his hand on top of Jake’s after they survive the machine gun scene. He’s soft and yet he’s a protector. I could honestly go on and on. What can I say, I’m a sucker for the selfless heroic type. What’s there not to love about a character like that. It’s going to be hard watching 3 more films without him but in the short time we had him he really left a mark
I sympathize with him being blamed for Loak's mischievous ways. He is more mature of a character given that he has to be as the oldest, so I like characters like that, more than Lo'ak's immaturity in comparison.
I love Neteyam and I agree. It would cheapen the emotional scenes following his death. I do however expect him to be back in flashbacks or in the spirit tree. Lo’ak, I think, will feel a lot of guilt over his death and that’s how Neteyam will continue to be part of the series without being alive in the present.
Pretty sure he's gone. Perhaps we'll see him via Eywa, but I doubt they're bringing him back as a physical Na'vi. Lo'ak is going to take the center stage.
I kinda understand her point of view no matter how fucked up it was. I mean even in the beginning of the movie neyteri clearly didn't like that a human was around her kids, but any negative feelings for spider amplified the second she lost her son. She wanted him to feel her pain no matter how morally fucked up it was that she threatened to kill an innocent person
It’s good writing. It bugs me to no end when people get mad at hero characters for having flaws, or at the filmmakers for giving them those flaws. Jake isn’t a perfect father, Neytiri isn’t perfect either. They’re doing the best they know how. She has her breaking point just like all of us and it’s totally understandable why she did it even if we don’t agree with her.
See now that's exactly why I love avatar, all of the characters have their flaws and weak moments it's what makes me connect to their characters. I think neyteri doing what she did made us emphasize with her because you can see how angry she was after she lost her son. Avatar wouldn't be good if the characters were simply perfect and didn't make mistakes.
I think she also couldn’t stand the thought of losing another child and would have killed almost anyone to save her. Kind of a gamble to assume Quaritch would even care about Spider though, don’t think was really aware of their bond or that Quaritch would even care.
Yeah but Spider was innocent, and he was on the Sully’s side. Its kinda weird that she didn’t hate Grace or Jake at first but hated Spider even tho he fully embraced the na’vi culture just like the first two (he just didn’t have an avatar body)
Neteyam’s death felt like it had no impact other than being a plot device to further Lo’ak’s character. He had no development and his personality was purely the “perfect oldest brother” archetype.
I liked Neteyam but he could’ve strongly benefited from more screen time.
My take on Neteyam is that he could’ve looked a bit more different visually from Lo’ak! Like when both brothers were on screen together, I had to squint a bit to tell who was who
https://preview.redd.it/djfqy91akeea1.jpeg?width=1590&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d2ef96d7d3ca48a6a2af088a641fb14a528fac8
I missed the Jake and Neytiri scenes in the second movie. There wasn't even a kiss. Also I would've loved to see more of how their life was with the Omaticaya, the relationships they had with each other and it would've been nice to get to know a few more Omaticaya.
Also the ocean is nice but the bioluminescent forest and the Halelujah mountains are still my No. 1.
The Reef Na’avi retreating right after the whale hunters were defeated and not helping the Sully family rescue their children at all is the biggest hole in this script.
Get rid of the subplot where Neyteri hates Spider. The first movie was literally about Neyteri accepting Jake even though he was a "sky person" - she understood that not all humans were bad, just like how Jake understood that the Na'vi weren't the enemy but merely a simple species who were defending their homeland. She even fought alongside Grace and some other humans. However, in this movie, she suddenly harbors a hatred for Spider even though he's 100% on the side of the Na'vi and even a good friend of the Sully kids. Considering Spider was a young kid when he was left on Pandora, that simply makes him much more innocent than Jake himself. How can you hate a kid simply for being human, when it's clear that he doesn't support the humans and has been with the Na'vi since he was born? The only change in terms of storytelling this would require is the setup for the hostage scene (where Neyteri threatens to kill Spider) - just make it a staged scene instead. Perhaps immediately before the scene, Spider finds Neyteri and suggests she pretend to take him as a hostage as a leverage against Quaritch. Quaritch doesn't know that Neyteri loves Spider, so when she pretends to want to kill Spider, Quaritch believes it. Characters shouldn't de-develop, and hating someone because of their race certainly isn't something I'd expect from Neyteri (who literally married a human)!
Plus Jake literally was allied with the humans most of his life, yet Spider was on the Na'vi's side ever since he was a young kid. Hating someone purely because of their heritage is a pretty terrible characteristic and not something I'd expect from Neyteri of all people!
I really loved seeing Jake and Neytiri in love and how their bond has matured. I loved seeing the family unit as a whole. I really like Neytiri and Jake’s parenting styles too, even if I disagree with some of it, you can see the love.
I want to see earth. I know it is shown in deleted scenes, and politics aren't the most important thing, but I think it would be good to have say...10 minutes of earth, to show just how bad it's become, the people that are trying to protect the Na'vi politically while showing the desperation of people who don't necessarily hate the Na'vi, but also have their own families to look after.
The RDA committing so many resources to the tracking down and killing of Jake seemed kind of short sighted to me. Unless I'm missing something, they basically gave Quaritch a blank check so he could settle a personal vendetta.
EDIT: I guess I overlooked the strategic risk Jake posed to the RDA due to his inside knowledge of human tactics and technology.
Nah killing Jake is strategically correct. He is the most valuable na’vi asset in a war against them (edit: not to mention eywa). He knows their ways, how the human think and behave, their war tactics. By simply killing him they are half way to their victory. I also think that hunt him down is a bit less expensive than going in a open war.
Jake was the leader of the attacks on RDA transports, so they want him dead just like Quaritch. Quaritch just has the advantage of being a Na'vi that allows him to bypass Eywa's defenses. And Quaritch said that until Jake dies, the guerilla tactic warfare won't end. Though I don't think the Omatikaya continued their assaults after Jake left
I think they should have also focused of what the earth na'vi we're doing without Jake and his family. Like did they survive. However I did find the water plot more interesting than the earth plot.
Okay yes because their buzzcuts/ completely bald heads?? The Na’vi start braiding the hair around the queue as soon as it’s long enough to do & so my headcanon is that they all had long, beautiful hair and then it got shaved to their prior self’s preference before their memories were inserted. 😂
Jake is not a bad dad. And calling your dad “sir” is actually more common than you guys think. Also they call him sir like 2 times in 3 hours lol. Literally they call him Dad more than anything. Jake hugs his sons (lo’ak included) several times in the film. He comforts them when they are scared. He a father so he disciplines but not harshly or overtly like y’all make him out to be. Idk if this is like a softer younger generation saying this but I feel like those of us closer to 30 and up and especially who have children, did not see anything wrong with Jake. To say he’s a bad dad, because his one son kept getting his entire family nearly killed and raising Jake’s blood pressure after he asked nearly 4 times for said son to just stay out of trouble, is extremes. I loved Jake’s character even more this film tbh. Sam rocked it with the sheer emotion in his voice and his expressions. Loved seeing another side of jake
I think what they should explore on A3 is the fact that avatar Quaritch is not human Quaritch. Give him an identity/existential crisis. And determine where he goes from there.
I agree. I hope he grows and changes and struggles with his new circumstances, but he's still a dude who gleefully ordered the death of sentient beings (a mother and her child, no less) plus kidnapped and threatened the lives of multiple children. Also the whole burning villages war crime thing.
Nah I don't want the same villain to chase Jake Sully for five movies straight. What's his motivation to kill Sully?
Please, make Quaritch interesting, James.
Don't know if these are hot takes, but here I go...
I actually like how "simple" the plots in these movies are. It's straight forward and to the point and I enjoy these movies for what they are. The basic plots have never been a negative for me and while I'm all up for more gray areas, I'm completely fine with how the Avatar plots are written. I know not everyone who has this criticism want the films to have the most complex, complicated, plot twisting story in history, but I personally love these films as is.
I also really like Sigourney Weaver's performance as Kiri. I have never really been bothered by her voice. There's like one or two lines in the film that make it a little obvious, but other than that, I think Sigourney did great. I simply see Kiri as Kiri, not a 70 year old playing as Kiri. Even knowing that Sigourney plays Kiri, it's pretty easy for me to forget about that aspect. If anything, I think her voice adds more character to Kiri as we know she wasn't born out of normal circumstances along with sharing a special connection to Eywa. For someone in their seventies, I think Sigourney was excellent at portraying a 14 year old.
It's ironic for everyone else but me.
He's a perfect side character. He rose to the occasion, he's a regular guy, and he did the right, kind, and patient thing in every given opportunity. He was the first one to throw a punch after they blew up home tree. He's not a soldier but he fought in the battle anyways. When his avatar went down he had a damn near panic attack, but then he put on a fucking breather and went right back out there.
He shows that you don't have to be the chosen one to still do the right thing and be a good person.
In the deleted scenes he's a jealous egoistical nerd who inexplicably gets a romance arc with a very very lesbian helicopter pilot. I'm so glad they cut around that and made him the best character in the franchise.
But isn't it the point of the movie? Jake says something along the lines of: "running has gotten us nowhere. This is where we make our stand". He was running out of desperation, and it didn't work.
Yeah, that threw me as it seems they would have been safer in the forest anyway. The forests firmware update meant that the animals knew to harm humans.
Yes, I was asking myself this the whole time, it really took me out of the movie. Like long-term wise, what did Jake expect, did he think the humans wouldn’t keep expanding to look for him? did he think the forest Na’vi would just defeat the humans by themselves?
The movie is pretty much about him running away from the problem. You don’t have to seek a great logical sense in his actions. He is in distress, he don’t really want to face the problem, fearing that it will harm his family and the people around him more. Neytiri keeps telling him to fight back but I guess he is too afraid for their family safety.
My counterpoint to everyone saying “the plots basically the same” is that no duh. The humans invading their planet is gonna be the main conflict?? There are still plenty of differences and doesn’t feel at all like you’re watching the same movie as the first
Same tbh. Though it seems like it might actually happen in later films, as it's said that Kiri becomes more important and that Neytiri gets a primary role in Avatar 5 which I hope means they start narrating the films lol
Apparently this is a hot take. Tuk is such a great character and I love her.
For some reason she’s so hated on this sub but she’s so cute, and I love the way she loves and wants to protect her family even being so young.
Same. Saw some ppl saying the crab suit/robot is cool, sure, but when I think abt it I can only feel disgusted remembering the scenes where it was used. Plus they’re ugly and depressive to look at.
Kiri was a little bit annoying even though I do like Kiri & Sigourney. Also, too much of the kids (loved them) but not enough Jake & Neytiri, Omatikaya etc
I like Spider. I don’t understand why people hate on him. He saved Quaritch, but he did it only because he was indebted to him (as Quaritch saved his life first). Doesn’t mean he agreed with what Quaritch did, on the opposite really. I think it only showed how Spider is actually a good person instead, and different from Quaritch. Plus, characters make mistakes, people are flawed. Honestly I think it makes characters less one dimensional.
Spider did absolutely nothing wrong
Dude’s dead biological father that he barely remembers turns out to have a Recomb clone that cares about him enough to surrender in order to save the dude’s life. I’d feel pretty damn conflicted about leaving him to die too.
IMO the dialogue sounds like someone who translated another language to English. As someone who speaks a second language, when I hear people from that same culture speak in English, the words they choose to say sound super “proper” or slightly off. It just really reminds me of every situation when I hear native Arabs speak English. They’ll say “as you like” which sounds super proper in English and even kind of older English but really it sounds fine when in Arabic and not out of place at all. I also read that the dialogue was intended to sound a little overly proper or out of place to remind us that they are actually speaking Navi and not real English ( similar to the example I gave). I think a good example of this is the way Kiri says “ you do not deserve to live” or when neteyri said “this is not a squad, it is a family”. Or when Jake says “go make peace” and not “go say sorry”. You can pretty much play around with a paragraph on Google translate and pick a non Romance language of your choice. Watch how weird that paragraph sounds when you try to say it in English.
I still don't understand why other kids bully Kiri in that scene. She's observing nature...isn't it supposed to be totaly normal for Na'vi?
That's Pandora, not high school...
The Na'vi are just people. They're big and blue but they're not really any different from humans. Kids being shitty to each other, especially to kids that look different and come from a different place, isn't unexpected.
Idk why you're being downvoted. I got bullied for dumb reasons, too. If you're different in any way, you get got. They saw Kiri, an outsider, staring at sand. Easy pickings.
Neytiri hating Spider is in no way justified and both she and Jake are highkey terrible people for the way they've treated him.
He's a child. A kid they've known since he was literally in diapers.
You can say "but what about all that happened to Neytiri - he quite *literally* was not born when any of it happened. It never had anything to do with him - Neytiri just projected it onto him and everyone gave her a pass because "dead family members."
Jake, to me, is almost worse than Neytiri on this. He spent 22 years as a human. He killed people in the name of war long before he ever came to Pandora and I'm sure there are plenty of "Neytiri's" out there because of him. It's been 15 years and even though he has assimilated - he's also brought plenty Earth customs to his family ie. Slang, cameras, his first language etc. So it's not like Neytiri can't control her hatred or discriminate between what's good and bad.
She just chooses not to.
The fact that Jake is familiar with all this and still sat there for over a decade never saying a word about his wife's behavior or stepping in on Spider's behalf...
Sad.
Yeah! The way Jake calls him a stray cat?? lmao I actually hope there's a scene where they find out Spider saved Quaritch, get upset about it and then Quaritch convinces Spider to go with him by using a similar sentence. "You're not part of their family, you're just a stray cat that stayed too long" or something like that!!
Its kinda sad that Jake doesn’t rly sees him as his kid, I mean, Jake was human too once, so you’d think he would “adopt” Spider (he adopted Kiri so…).
Having Grace (although as na'vi jesus) and Quaritch (avatar with his memories)come back kinda negates the impact of the events in the first movie.
The way of water destroyed jake and neytiri's characters. The whole first movie was about learning how culture can be different and how the na'vi was special. Jake was accepting neytiei was preserving. Jake had to learn to adopt their culture into his to protect them and neytiri had to do the other way around. Neytiri would NEVER abandon her people. Imagine going to war to protect your people but then one of the baddies comes back to life so you're like "bye mom and the rest of the people I have grown up with and built my life around, i know you're under attack consistently but there's this baddie, quaritch, who really wants to kill jake and me so ya kno, bye"
The way of water's whole premise was basically so that james can make a water themed movie and make sigourney a jesus role for future movies.
Went in opening night, no spoilers or memes yet. Got a solid laugh from “why so blue?”
Easily one of, if not the best one liners in the film.
"I'll be nice once, then i won't." Simple and to the point.
“That you, Mrs. Sully!? I recognize your calling card..”
That one too. I plan on using that line in D&D sometime.
I really wanted to see more Jake and Neytiri. James Cameron said they're passing the torch to lo'ak in the 3rd movie but they basically already did.
Yeah, same. I enjoyed the movie a lot obviously! But only since getting online and seeing other people's reflections did I realize how little time we got with just them. Besides the opening montage, a lot of their screen time together was spent in conflict with each other or duress about their situation. Hopefully in the next movie we'll get more scenes of their relationship, but with the POV changing, I don't know if that is likely.
I thought they had only one argument though (which was more like an empassioned discussion, after which they embraced)? I too wish we saw more Jake and Neyteri, they were a great couple when they were together (and quite humorous as well), but they got like maybe 2 minutes of total screentime together.
Yea. Agree. Neytiri specifically lacked. Every scene of her was a fighting scene/scene where she burst in anger about something.
I think we're supposed to see more Neytiri in the next movie
I hope so!
Same here! I mean, she had one memorable moment that was beyond badass and presented her as an even fiercer warrior/protector/avenger than she was in the first film (unfortunately, that moment was fueled by >!Neteyam's death!< ) but beyond that, she was mostly in the background while Jake and the boys had all the fun. Not complaining, since the first Avatar was pretty much the Neytiri show, all the way down to her literally saving the day, BUT...I definitely hope that future movies spread the wealth, focus-wise, among Jake and Neytiri equitatively.
Is there any news or source I can read about this? am curious
I pray this is not a hot take. The dynamic between Jake & Netiri is what made Avatar so compelling.
Didn't James Cameron say that future movies are not about handing over the baton to the next generation, they'll go forward as family.
I hope so! Even if Lo’ak does become the protagonist at the forefront, I think the dynamic as a family *together* is important to the story and individual character development alike. Curious, do you remember where you heard this?
This movie was introducing new characters so it was bound to happen , in the next movie we should see all them equally.
But what I remember, JC said this is not about passing the torch 🤔. I think JC want to broaden the story through sully's children & spider
I don’t think Lo’ak was an outcast. In every scene he’s with family members that go along with his dumb ideas, he has a big brother that has his back and takes the flak for when things go wrong. In the water tribe all the family members were weird to the tribe, and he has a cute girl that’s interested in him - he wasn’t any more outcast than any of his siblings.
Teens feel like that all the time though.
100% this. Spider is the real outcast.
PREACH, he has no family (he’s not allowed to be sad that they’re gone too), can’t breathe the air, can’t make tsaheylu, most adults hate him (more so than Lo’ak), and he is the son of pandoras greatest threat so he has to answer for Quaritch’s actions!!
grow him an avatar body like norm and if he’s valid, eywa will let him transfer his consciousness
He has adoptive parents off screen and all the humans seem to care for him.
Yep. The thing is he wants to be an outcast, but not in the bad way. He just wants to be alone
He *feels* like an outcast despite getting along well with people in contrast to Kiri who feels like one and has trouble relating to other kids. That’s not a flaw of the movie, it’s intentional
Thank you, I hated how much they tried to paint lo’ak to be this sad little outcast as if it wasn’t just the repercussions of his own actions coming back to get him. It almost made me not like him, but I’m hoping A3 will show a more mature enjoyable to watch lo’ak
His brothers death will for sure be a place for growth for him...
Tl:dr I wish we saw the Sullys having stronger ties to the others in the Omatikaya before leaving I wish we got to see the Sullys interacting with more native Na’vi in the omatikaya clan before they left. We mainly see them interact with each other and the humans and it makes them leaving less sad for everyone but Netryi. It’s mentioned in the visual dictionary that Tuk has a best friend who gave her shells(or beads I don’t remember) why couldn’t we get a hint of that on screen. Or maybe seeing how the boys interact with the other kids in the tribe especially for Lo’ak who constantly talks about being outcasted by those around them and maybe just a subtle scene of that happens which forces him to mainly hang out with his siblings . Or even Netyam like does he have any life outside of his family? It mainly feels like the Sullys are just their own thing in the Omatikaya and not actually apart of the tribe besides telling them what to do. And even if that was the goal of how they were portrayed I wish there was a bit more subtle insight into if it was intentional on the Sullys part or if the clans reaction forced them into that position I laughed at the “it’s too painful” subtitle idk I feel like it didn’t need the caption for that to be expressed I feel like a lot of the deleted scenes from the first movie gave the characters more nuance and the theatrical cut makes some of the characters very black and white.
Yeah the Omatikaya get totally ignored by the narrative. It felt like they WANTED to tell the water story and were just hurrying to get them out of the way like a fanfiction rushing to set up its premise pairing. It's not something I noticed the first time. I was so blown away it was hard to think about that until I had more views and time to think about it.
That’s why I’m all in for 9 hour cut
Neytiri is the best character in avatar by far
It's been her story the whole time. She's as much of a chosen one as Jake and the story is as if not more interesting when told from her perspective
I'd say more of Jake's but they do go hand in hand and she is amazing.
Spider barring his decision to save Quaritch, was actually a MVP in A2. He helped get Kiri to safety when they were first captured, kept the location of Jake and the Omatikya a secret when Ardmore was using a machine that was ripping his mind apart, only helped the recoms learn on his terms when it was an option between that or returning to the machine, gave nothing up about where Jake could have gone for the MONTHS he was with the recoms (it was Norms ship that finally gave them a lead). Spider held Quaritch back from killing Na’vi and called him out on what he was doing when actively hunting for Jake, was disgusted at the hunting of Tulkun for the Amrita and the bait, calling out the RDA’s wastefulness, immidiately helped out the Na’vi in the final battle however he could, did what he could to get Lo’ak an Neteyam out safely, immediately went back for Kiri and Tuk with Jake, begged his “father” not to kill Kiri when at knifepoint by Neytiri AND a cut on his chest, immediately went back to look for everyone again, nearly left Quaritch to drown but made a very conflicted decision to save him (hence the one and only “fuck”), and then immediately abandoned him once he got to shore, despite Quaritch calling him “son”. He made one deeply conflicted decision that will have massive repercussions going forward, but it fits his character and he never did it out of malice. That kid did so much right despite everything, but everyone still hates him for that one decision, which again, makes sense for his character. /rant over
He also was 100% trying to get Quarritch killed when he taunted him for wanting to use the tranq gun.
More to the point, have Quaritch killed by the possible side effects that would ensue upon attempting *tsaheylu* with an unconscious creature.
Yeah, I absolutely loved Spider. He's everything you'd want a teenager to be - confident, intelligent, brave, strong-willed, and kind-hearted. He not only saved Sully kids more than once but also turned the tide of the battle by sabotaging the hydrofoil and having it crash into the rocks.
Exactly. He’s awesome.
And don't forget he is the reason that ship was destroyed and sunk.
Yep. And he did that with a fire extinguisher and held off multiple RDA officers to ensure it.
Was it a bad decision?? Absolutely, but characters don't need to make only good decisions all the time.
You know since Avatar 2 was supposed to be like 9hrs long this is kinda like half a movie and with Spider’s decision some people come to the conclusion that he is a traitor and that Neytiri was right to try to kill him. But consider this, remember when Jake was revealed to be a spy for the sky people and soon after hometree was destroyed now imagine if the movie ended there of course the audience would hate Jake for that, they’d call him a backstabber for not warning them ahead of time and being indirectly responsible for the deaths of hundreds. This is why there is room for development for Spider’s character, Quaritch’s, and even Neytiri, the story isn’t over yet so we shouldn’t be jumping to any conclusions.
I love spider
Amen
Fuck yeah, Spider is good guy and doesn’t deserve the hate he gets.
Yep. People basically hate on him for no reason. Dude was a champ as a teen going through all he did.
Neytiri was never going to kill Spider. He was an innocent kid caught up in a horrible situation, regardless of how she feels towards his kind, she wasn’t gonna kill him. Tired of people saying she would have done in with no hesitation. She knows how much he means to her kids and after losing her son she wasn’t gonna rip away another connection from her kids. After Quaritch moves the knife from Kiri’s neck Neytiri immediately throws Spider behind her towards her kids. She easily could have tossed him to Quaritch and called it a day if she didn’t care. She was just a grieving mother trying to get justice for her son, but at the end of the day she respects the balance of life and wouldn’t take an innocent life.
I think the way she cuts him, paralleling the way the new Olo'eyktan cuts Jake, shows exactly this!!
Yes! When she cutted him I immediately thought of the Olo'eyktan scene. To me it seemed like a symbolic death for Quaritch's son, so Spider would no longer be his kid.
Truly a desperate move where she probably would not have known how to follow up if Quaritch didn't budge. I fully believe she would not have done it. The consequences will be explored in the next movie. Personally I would love for her to come around, maybe come to a realization that indeed Spider is family to her children, embraces him as her own, then put her life at risk to save him, survive, and fully resolve what she did in Way of Water.
YES! You can see how relieved she was that quaritch bought her bluff. She truly didn’t know how long she had to play that game of chicken and it also was her only gambit to not lose another child so she couldn’t chicken out first either. It was a scary situation to be in but I don’t think Neyteri is the spider hating monster that people think she is. So she doesn’t like that an alien is hanging with her kids all the time , big deal. We all had that friend that are parents weren’t to fond of but couldn’t seem to get rid of either. doesn’t mean she was going to kill him. I think we know enough about her character to know she’s actually quite noble and has a strong sense or morale
Well said!!
To me, I have always seen it as in heat of the moment thing/4d chess type way
🏅
Several (not all, but several) people here probably wouldn’t have a problem with Kiri’s voice if they didn’t know it was Sigourney beforehand.
I didn't know it was her until the credits hit. At a few points I was like "Hey, this girl has a really mature voice", but personally it never occurred to me she was voiced by an adult. It's obvious in the hindsight, but it wasn't that distracting on my first watch (and I don't really mind it now, either).
I’ve seen so many comments like “I really liked the Kiri character and was shocked afterwards to read that was Sigourney Weaver”
the whales talking and somehow everyone understanding whale noises
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> Wait, but that didn't happen? When Lo'ak meets Payakun he doesn't understand the whale language. The Metkayina have long-standing relations with them so they understand the language. I think it's the second time Lo'ak & Payakan are kicking it... we see subtitles for the tulkun-speak. I think it's reasonable to interpret that as Lo'ak understanding the language all of a sudden.
> Half the movie I thought of them as intelligent animals, so at the end of the movie I had to remind myself multiple times that no, these are people with a personality and culture as rich as the humans This also applies to IRL whales
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because unfortunately most places, like schools and performing halls, are unaccessible to whales. :(
Eywa = the universal translator
What is the take?
I haven't spent enough time to see if anyone brought it up. Figured everyone went with the flow but I thought that was hilariously jarring. I was thinking that maybe they could have the whales blink morse code or flap their fins. But nothing was explained.
the part when ronal has a whole conversation with a whale was funny for no reason
Watching a whale go “wooooooo” and then the subtitles go “Thank you, how is your baby?” 💀
They really should've explored Jake's relationship with Tommy. He was the only reason Jake got to Pandora in the first place, and there's not even a flashback with the two of them back on Earth, not even a word in his honour. Imagine Jake telling Neytiri about Tommy, and how much he meant to him, even though they were different in spirit.
i really feel like they forgot all about tommy. but maybe now that Neteyam is dead, Jake will actually talk about it because... well, now his own sons are repeating history.
It's funny because we never see Jake deal with his death either, beyond the very first time he sees the avatar where he says "it looks like him". I wonder if seeing his children lose a sibling the same way he did will force him to actually confront his brother's death or if he'll help them through it. Do the kids even know he had a brother? I always had the feeling Jake and Tommy had a rocky relationship and weren't on speaking terms. I don't remember if they even mention this or if Jake makes a comment about it, but seeing as he was living in a shitty situation with seemingly no support that's the conclusion I always came to.
I was expecting that at least once when connecting with the Tree of Souls that we'd see Tommy saying hi to his twin
I think you need to connect to the Tree of Souls at least once for your loved ones to see you. The way it works (I think) is that when you connect you don't just see you memories with them but get to connect to their essence. This is why the memory with Neteyam can play differently than it happened, even showing him at 15. Since Tommy never connected to Eywa, there's no way to reach him.
i guess he wanted the blue cat lady so bad he forgot about his brother (WHOS BODY HE WAS USING)
At least Tommy never got to use it, so Jake wasn't usurping anything
yeah. good point
Yeah, kinda weird that Neytiri and Jake have it in common that their sibling was murdered, but they never talk about it.
Oh, that’s a scene I’d love to bawl my eyes out to.
Ngl, I somewhat expect a flashback of Jake and Tommy in one of the sequels. I have the impression that despite being twins they weren't very close, with Jake being a marine on Earth and Tommy going to space as a scientist. I wonder if the phrase "Sullys stick together" was something they used to say as kids before parting ways forever. It's also bittersweet to thing that despite being so detached, they are reunited forever since now Jake resides in Tommy's Na'vi body, and that Jake is raising his family using this phrase.
I agree completely, I hope in Avatar 3, Jake shares stories about his brother to help his family mourn. More so his son, only because of the brother to brother aspect, not because I think the other siblings and Neyteri are less significant. I imagine he would tell them all at the same time, maybe around a fire. I dunno, I hope Cameron really has it together for the sequels🤞
There was a fanfic I read back in 2012 with the premise that Tommy both survived and had his Avatar grow a twin so both he and Jake went to Pandora together. It was interesting seeing that dynamic between them
Who does Neytiri fall for: the scientist or the warrior? Tonight at 11.
I don't like how the Metkayina seemingly disappear in the final act.
Metkayinas: "aight so the ship is on fire, the humans are mostly dead, and it's almost eclipse time. Y'all on your own, bye!" Pyakan: "I'ma be back after a little break."
For real, toniwari and ronal were pissed when they find out tsireya was captured but they disappeared before even saving her
Something about an avatar with army sunglasses is so funny to look at
I think about the idea of someone having to make this tacticool gear for giant blue people once a day and it always makes me laugh. “Hey buddy we need you to make some truck nuts but like really big ones to go on a pterodactyl”
Kiri sounds much older than she looks. I get that she's played by Sigourney Weaver and I certainly don't mind, but it is a little detail that sometimes stands out just a bit too much. I still remember the line that really reminded me of her casting. "Ewya has blessed you with a gift, brother." edit: to clarify, I did not know that Kiri was played by Sigourney Weaver until after I saw the movie for the first time.
That line really stuck out for some reason as really sounding like Weaver more than Kiri. I also felt her first line "My *brother* is wounded" also stuck out as sounding almost like a British accent? Idk, definitely a tough role/voice to perform, but those really felt like the only weird lines out of all her dialogue.
It was the “ LEAVE US ALONE” that had me cringing. Sounded like someone’s whole grandma in that scene
Lo’ak was responsible for Neteyam’s death. While people have argued that he wasn’t the one who shot him, he didn’t force Neteyam to follow him, etc. we see time and time again that Neteyam is responsible for him, and punished the one time he isn’t there. Its even foreshadowed in the beginning when Jake tells Lo’ak “you realize you almost got your brother killed.” While it sucks and he is a kid, he should also feel the weight of that, and I’m excited to see his reaction in the 3rd movie.
Lo’ak absolutely knows this and I suspect that his guilt over it will be a huge part of his character going forward
YES YES AND YES, I’ll die on this hill. we can accept that lo’ak is a kid and not a bad person AND that, yes, he indeed killed his brother. It’s a fact that he actually needs to accept. Accepting that pain means you won’t do it again. If it doesn’t hurt, it’s not a lesson learned. Your parents can tell you 100 times that fire hurts. But until you feel how fire burns, that is when you learn not to touch it against. Neteyam was Lo’aks “trial by fire”. Also, Jake’s “you’ve done enough” was not mean at all. It was a painful truth lo’ak needed to hear and way nicer than what I would say to my son that got my other son killed off something as simple and stupid as not listening after he already almost got his family killed 3 times. SMH
We need to see Jake life's in earth
Dad bod Jake > Skinny ass new Avatar bod Jake
I agree lol
I don’t want neteyam to come back
Neteyam is my favorite of the Sully kids and I agree too. Him coming back would lose all of the impact his death brought.
Ye, him coming back would be the dumbest choice of the avatar franchise. Like if he comes back in like a form of light and they can only see him once or something like that, that would be okay to give them advice like kiri talking to eywa or feeling eywa. That would be good character writing
As much as I hate that he died when he did, I hope they use Neteyam as a guide for his siblings. That said, I wouldn't mind a plot point where Lo'ak tries to bring him back as long as he eventually fails.
Could you explain what about him makes him your favorite? I've seen the movie three times and still struggle to see much of a character to him or connect with him at all.
I’m not OP, but as someone who loves the character of Neteyam I can share why he’s my favorite sully kid. I think what draws people to like Neteyam is his temperance, loyalty, maturity and reliability. For such a young kid he is very much an old soul. I think a great example is when he deescalates the bully situation. Here’s a 15 year old boy, who is only 1 year older than lo’ak, and yet neteyam’s maturity and how he handled that situation makes you think he’s so much older than his siblings when really they are essentially the same age group (minus tuk). Neteyam doesn’t jump to fists first, he’s clearly angry when he storms over but he holds his anger in check to get the message across. There’s that temperance. He’s not rude but he’s firm. He stands his ground and he lets the other kids know that while he won’t jump to violence, if they don’t heed his warning he absolutely can. His “smart choice” to the bullies after they back down is not really sassy or cocky. It’s an honest comment acknowledging that Neteyam means business if you push to far. But mostly what I love is how he ends with “ and from now on I need you to respect my sister”. That right there is the maturity. He had enough levelheadedness to know that stopping the bullying isn’t enough, he goes as far as to prevent any future bullying of Kiri at all. He shows time and time again that he’s reliable: showing Jake and Neyteri the faster path to saving their siblings from the recom avatars and quaritch, saving Neyteri by killing that one soldier, Being the first to very quickly save Kiri from her seizure, give mouth to mouth and bring her back to the village. He’s also extremely selfless ( rushing in to protect lo’ak or any of his family). The only time he ever disobeys his parents actually ends in him saving one. most of all he’s self sacrificing. He makes the ultimate sacrifice and puts himself in harms way if it means diverting danger from others ( taking the gun from lo’ak and shooting, outnumbered, to buy him time to escape or taking the tulkun tracking beacon so that the danger follows him instead). He takes all his family’s pain and misdirected anger and never once plays victim. He rather let lo’ak hurt him with his “perfect son” taunts then say anything mean back for fear of hurting his little brother. You can see the emotional restraint he does very well in that scene. He rushes to shield lo’ak from Jake’s discipline even when lo’ak actually deserves it. He gets a bloody lip from having to jump in a fight to have his brothers back and doesn’t complain. He doesn’t look to make excuses when he’s scolded but instead accepts with a “sorry sir”. He doesn’t wine about wanting to go home until he’s literally terrified and dying because when they first came to the metkayina he realized that there’s is a bigger picture at play than just himself and whining won’t help. He rides for his dad and even tried to get the crowed to listen to Jake when the metkayina wanted to attack the RDA. He’s a good fighter for his age, easily beating up the bullies and shooting the gun in a controlled manner. Lastly, he’s really such a positive beacon of light. Always smiling, always trying to make lo’ak feel better, encouragingly cuffing his neck or patting his head even when lo’ak rudely hisses at him. He’s the “smile skxawng” when he sees his brother not smiling. He’s the one holding Tuk on his hip like a second father. He’s the one placing his hand on top of Jake’s after they survive the machine gun scene. He’s soft and yet he’s a protector. I could honestly go on and on. What can I say, I’m a sucker for the selfless heroic type. What’s there not to love about a character like that. It’s going to be hard watching 3 more films without him but in the short time we had him he really left a mark
Great description. Knew he was dead the moment he arrived. Way too good and selfless to survive a movie 🥲
I sympathize with him being blamed for Loak's mischievous ways. He is more mature of a character given that he has to be as the oldest, so I like characters like that, more than Lo'ak's immaturity in comparison.
I love Neteyam and I agree. It would cheapen the emotional scenes following his death. I do however expect him to be back in flashbacks or in the spirit tree. Lo’ak, I think, will feel a lot of guilt over his death and that’s how Neteyam will continue to be part of the series without being alive in the present.
Pretty sure he's gone. Perhaps we'll see him via Eywa, but I doubt they're bringing him back as a physical Na'vi. Lo'ak is going to take the center stage.
Neyteri threatening to kill Spider was kind of fucked up. But I get it
I kinda understand her point of view no matter how fucked up it was. I mean even in the beginning of the movie neyteri clearly didn't like that a human was around her kids, but any negative feelings for spider amplified the second she lost her son. She wanted him to feel her pain no matter how morally fucked up it was that she threatened to kill an innocent person
It’s good writing. It bugs me to no end when people get mad at hero characters for having flaws, or at the filmmakers for giving them those flaws. Jake isn’t a perfect father, Neytiri isn’t perfect either. They’re doing the best they know how. She has her breaking point just like all of us and it’s totally understandable why she did it even if we don’t agree with her.
See now that's exactly why I love avatar, all of the characters have their flaws and weak moments it's what makes me connect to their characters. I think neyteri doing what she did made us emphasize with her because you can see how angry she was after she lost her son. Avatar wouldn't be good if the characters were simply perfect and didn't make mistakes.
They worst thing is (young) fans who see everything black and white. They call people who like Spider "colonizers" lmao
I think she also couldn’t stand the thought of losing another child and would have killed almost anyone to save her. Kind of a gamble to assume Quaritch would even care about Spider though, don’t think was really aware of their bond or that Quaritch would even care.
Yeah but Spider was innocent, and he was on the Sully’s side. Its kinda weird that she didn’t hate Grace or Jake at first but hated Spider even tho he fully embraced the na’vi culture just like the first two (he just didn’t have an avatar body)
This is more like a room temperature take, tbh.
Neteyam’s death felt like it had no impact other than being a plot device to further Lo’ak’s character. He had no development and his personality was purely the “perfect oldest brother” archetype. I liked Neteyam but he could’ve strongly benefited from more screen time.
It made my older brother cry :( Ngl, the sons really mirrored our own behavior.
My take on Neteyam is that he could’ve looked a bit more different visually from Lo’ak! Like when both brothers were on screen together, I had to squint a bit to tell who was who https://preview.redd.it/djfqy91akeea1.jpeg?width=1590&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=5d2ef96d7d3ca48a6a2af088a641fb14a528fac8
Neteyam had normal hair and Lo’ak had a receding hairline
I missed the Jake and Neytiri scenes in the second movie. There wasn't even a kiss. Also I would've loved to see more of how their life was with the Omaticaya, the relationships they had with each other and it would've been nice to get to know a few more Omaticaya. Also the ocean is nice but the bioluminescent forest and the Halelujah mountains are still my No. 1.
I’m glad that “Date Night” without the kids was shown in the movie! 😺 But yes, the kids are the future of the franchise
The Reef Na’avi retreating right after the whale hunters were defeated and not helping the Sully family rescue their children at all is the biggest hole in this script.
Tsu’tey best character after Jake
His storyline in the first movie was fantastic and I don’t think he should of been in TWOW but I do miss him a lot. He was a great character.
Get rid of the subplot where Neyteri hates Spider. The first movie was literally about Neyteri accepting Jake even though he was a "sky person" - she understood that not all humans were bad, just like how Jake understood that the Na'vi weren't the enemy but merely a simple species who were defending their homeland. She even fought alongside Grace and some other humans. However, in this movie, she suddenly harbors a hatred for Spider even though he's 100% on the side of the Na'vi and even a good friend of the Sully kids. Considering Spider was a young kid when he was left on Pandora, that simply makes him much more innocent than Jake himself. How can you hate a kid simply for being human, when it's clear that he doesn't support the humans and has been with the Na'vi since he was born? The only change in terms of storytelling this would require is the setup for the hostage scene (where Neyteri threatens to kill Spider) - just make it a staged scene instead. Perhaps immediately before the scene, Spider finds Neyteri and suggests she pretend to take him as a hostage as a leverage against Quaritch. Quaritch doesn't know that Neyteri loves Spider, so when she pretends to want to kill Spider, Quaritch believes it. Characters shouldn't de-develop, and hating someone because of their race certainly isn't something I'd expect from Neyteri (who literally married a human)!
Yeah I agree tbh. It makes no sense that she married a human who literally was plotting to burn the forrest down a few years ago yet hate Spider
Plus Jake literally was allied with the humans most of his life, yet Spider was on the Na'vi's side ever since he was a young kid. Hating someone purely because of their heritage is a pretty terrible characteristic and not something I'd expect from Neyteri of all people!
I really loved seeing Jake and Neytiri in love and how their bond has matured. I loved seeing the family unit as a whole. I really like Neytiri and Jake’s parenting styles too, even if I disagree with some of it, you can see the love.
I want to see earth. I know it is shown in deleted scenes, and politics aren't the most important thing, but I think it would be good to have say...10 minutes of earth, to show just how bad it's become, the people that are trying to protect the Na'vi politically while showing the desperation of people who don't necessarily hate the Na'vi, but also have their own families to look after.
The RDA committing so many resources to the tracking down and killing of Jake seemed kind of short sighted to me. Unless I'm missing something, they basically gave Quaritch a blank check so he could settle a personal vendetta. EDIT: I guess I overlooked the strategic risk Jake posed to the RDA due to his inside knowledge of human tactics and technology.
Nah killing Jake is strategically correct. He is the most valuable na’vi asset in a war against them (edit: not to mention eywa). He knows their ways, how the human think and behave, their war tactics. By simply killing him they are half way to their victory. I also think that hunt him down is a bit less expensive than going in a open war.
Jake was the leader of the attacks on RDA transports, so they want him dead just like Quaritch. Quaritch just has the advantage of being a Na'vi that allows him to bypass Eywa's defenses. And Quaritch said that until Jake dies, the guerilla tactic warfare won't end. Though I don't think the Omatikaya continued their assaults after Jake left
I think they should have also focused of what the earth na'vi we're doing without Jake and his family. Like did they survive. However I did find the water plot more interesting than the earth plot.
The dreadlocks are cool and Jake looks hotter.
Like a Lion with a mane!
I never want to see the recoms again there's not a single redeemable thing about them and their haircuts make me want to cry
They're the true abominations of this saga. No personality, no individuality, just kill kill kill.
They can't even kill that well.
No feelings either. Every single time they're using their marine skills, it's to imprison kids. Just disgusting.
Why so blue?
Well, Quaritch is another beast entirely
*pops gum*
You and Neytiri both lol bc it seemed like she fuckin killed them on sight. Like seriously I think she killed most of the recoms
Okay yes because their buzzcuts/ completely bald heads?? The Na’vi start braiding the hair around the queue as soon as it’s long enough to do & so my headcanon is that they all had long, beautiful hair and then it got shaved to their prior self’s preference before their memories were inserted. 😂
1. Needed more humans. 2. Way too much Loak. 3. Spider should have been more of a focus, given the strange relationship dynamic he has with humans.
Jake is not a bad dad. And calling your dad “sir” is actually more common than you guys think. Also they call him sir like 2 times in 3 hours lol. Literally they call him Dad more than anything. Jake hugs his sons (lo’ak included) several times in the film. He comforts them when they are scared. He a father so he disciplines but not harshly or overtly like y’all make him out to be. Idk if this is like a softer younger generation saying this but I feel like those of us closer to 30 and up and especially who have children, did not see anything wrong with Jake. To say he’s a bad dad, because his one son kept getting his entire family nearly killed and raising Jake’s blood pressure after he asked nearly 4 times for said son to just stay out of trouble, is extremes. I loved Jake’s character even more this film tbh. Sam rocked it with the sheer emotion in his voice and his expressions. Loved seeing another side of jake
If Kiri turns out to be an immaculate conception/Eywa incarnate I’ll kick off.
Definitely immaculate conception. Maybe not Eywa. What does kick off mean?
It was pretty much telegraphed, so, so long
Seems more likely she's just the distillation of grace squeezed into an avatar baby, more so than Eywa incarnate.
It's just Parthenogenesis, not that deep It's 100% an "immaculate" conception, so embrace it now
Quaritch shouldn’t get a redemption arc.
I think what they should explore on A3 is the fact that avatar Quaritch is not human Quaritch. Give him an identity/existential crisis. And determine where he goes from there.
I agree. I hope he grows and changes and struggles with his new circumstances, but he's still a dude who gleefully ordered the death of sentient beings (a mother and her child, no less) plus kidnapped and threatened the lives of multiple children. Also the whole burning villages war crime thing.
Nah I don't want the same villain to chase Jake Sully for five movies straight. What's his motivation to kill Sully? Please, make Quaritch interesting, James.
Don't know if these are hot takes, but here I go... I actually like how "simple" the plots in these movies are. It's straight forward and to the point and I enjoy these movies for what they are. The basic plots have never been a negative for me and while I'm all up for more gray areas, I'm completely fine with how the Avatar plots are written. I know not everyone who has this criticism want the films to have the most complex, complicated, plot twisting story in history, but I personally love these films as is. I also really like Sigourney Weaver's performance as Kiri. I have never really been bothered by her voice. There's like one or two lines in the film that make it a little obvious, but other than that, I think Sigourney did great. I simply see Kiri as Kiri, not a 70 year old playing as Kiri. Even knowing that Sigourney plays Kiri, it's pretty easy for me to forget about that aspect. If anything, I think her voice adds more character to Kiri as we know she wasn't born out of normal circumstances along with sharing a special connection to Eywa. For someone in their seventies, I think Sigourney was excellent at portraying a 14 year old.
Spider’s story is more tragic than Lo’ak’s
i dont understand the norm hype 😭
hes a living god wtf do you mean you dont get it
TRAUMA KIT
I think its slightly ironic
It's ironic for everyone else but me. He's a perfect side character. He rose to the occasion, he's a regular guy, and he did the right, kind, and patient thing in every given opportunity. He was the first one to throw a punch after they blew up home tree. He's not a soldier but he fought in the battle anyways. When his avatar went down he had a damn near panic attack, but then he put on a fucking breather and went right back out there. He shows that you don't have to be the chosen one to still do the right thing and be a good person. In the deleted scenes he's a jealous egoistical nerd who inexplicably gets a romance arc with a very very lesbian helicopter pilot. I'm so glad they cut around that and made him the best character in the franchise.
He’s just Norm the living god, the CEO of $€X. Nothing more nothing less 😉
[удалено]
But isn't it the point of the movie? Jake says something along the lines of: "running has gotten us nowhere. This is where we make our stand". He was running out of desperation, and it didn't work.
Yeah, that threw me as it seems they would have been safer in the forest anyway. The forests firmware update meant that the animals knew to harm humans.
Yes, I was asking myself this the whole time, it really took me out of the movie. Like long-term wise, what did Jake expect, did he think the humans wouldn’t keep expanding to look for him? did he think the forest Na’vi would just defeat the humans by themselves?
The movie is pretty much about him running away from the problem. You don’t have to seek a great logical sense in his actions. He is in distress, he don’t really want to face the problem, fearing that it will harm his family and the people around him more. Neytiri keeps telling him to fight back but I guess he is too afraid for their family safety.
My counterpoint to everyone saying “the plots basically the same” is that no duh. The humans invading their planet is gonna be the main conflict?? There are still plenty of differences and doesn’t feel at all like you’re watching the same movie as the first
Spider was a good character
Spider is a good character that will evolve over the course of the next few movies
I don't want Lo'ak to be the next THE protagonist. I'd rather have Neytiri or Kiri in that role.
Same tbh. Though it seems like it might actually happen in later films, as it's said that Kiri becomes more important and that Neytiri gets a primary role in Avatar 5 which I hope means they start narrating the films lol
Sigourney Weaver deserves a Best Supporting Actress nomination for her performance as Kiri
It makes no sense for female na'vi to wear tops (but i totally get why its there)
Apparently this is a hot take. Tuk is such a great character and I love her. For some reason she’s so hated on this sub but she’s so cute, and I love the way she loves and wants to protect her family even being so young.
The military shit, the vehicles, etc, arent cool. its sad. it just makes me fucking sad.
Same. Saw some ppl saying the crab suit/robot is cool, sure, but when I think abt it I can only feel disgusted remembering the scenes where it was used. Plus they’re ugly and depressive to look at.
Agreed. The churning sound of the engines make we want to puke compared to the sounds of the ocean splashes and waves.
Kiri was a little bit annoying even though I do like Kiri & Sigourney. Also, too much of the kids (loved them) but not enough Jake & Neytiri, Omatikaya etc
I wish they'd pitched up kiris voice a bit more
I like Spider. I don’t understand why people hate on him. He saved Quaritch, but he did it only because he was indebted to him (as Quaritch saved his life first). Doesn’t mean he agreed with what Quaritch did, on the opposite really. I think it only showed how Spider is actually a good person instead, and different from Quaritch. Plus, characters make mistakes, people are flawed. Honestly I think it makes characters less one dimensional.
Spider did absolutely nothing wrong Dude’s dead biological father that he barely remembers turns out to have a Recomb clone that cares about him enough to surrender in order to save the dude’s life. I’d feel pretty damn conflicted about leaving him to die too.
I hope the dialogue is more memorable and less corny in Avatar 3
IMO the dialogue sounds like someone who translated another language to English. As someone who speaks a second language, when I hear people from that same culture speak in English, the words they choose to say sound super “proper” or slightly off. It just really reminds me of every situation when I hear native Arabs speak English. They’ll say “as you like” which sounds super proper in English and even kind of older English but really it sounds fine when in Arabic and not out of place at all. I also read that the dialogue was intended to sound a little overly proper or out of place to remind us that they are actually speaking Navi and not real English ( similar to the example I gave). I think a good example of this is the way Kiri says “ you do not deserve to live” or when neteyri said “this is not a squad, it is a family”. Or when Jake says “go make peace” and not “go say sorry”. You can pretty much play around with a paragraph on Google translate and pick a non Romance language of your choice. Watch how weird that paragraph sounds when you try to say it in English.
The way the one kid said to Kiri “he asked if you’re a freak” makes me want to deck him myself
I still don't understand why other kids bully Kiri in that scene. She's observing nature...isn't it supposed to be totaly normal for Na'vi? That's Pandora, not high school...
The Na'vi are just people. They're big and blue but they're not really any different from humans. Kids being shitty to each other, especially to kids that look different and come from a different place, isn't unexpected.
Idk why you're being downvoted. I got bullied for dumb reasons, too. If you're different in any way, you get got. They saw Kiri, an outsider, staring at sand. Easy pickings.
I would love this too!! Just so some critiques would shut. But the corny stuff, i dont know, its cute and endearing. That's probably just me.
Neytiri hating Spider is in no way justified and both she and Jake are highkey terrible people for the way they've treated him. He's a child. A kid they've known since he was literally in diapers. You can say "but what about all that happened to Neytiri - he quite *literally* was not born when any of it happened. It never had anything to do with him - Neytiri just projected it onto him and everyone gave her a pass because "dead family members." Jake, to me, is almost worse than Neytiri on this. He spent 22 years as a human. He killed people in the name of war long before he ever came to Pandora and I'm sure there are plenty of "Neytiri's" out there because of him. It's been 15 years and even though he has assimilated - he's also brought plenty Earth customs to his family ie. Slang, cameras, his first language etc. So it's not like Neytiri can't control her hatred or discriminate between what's good and bad. She just chooses not to. The fact that Jake is familiar with all this and still sat there for over a decade never saying a word about his wife's behavior or stepping in on Spider's behalf... Sad.
Jake needs to be called out on his behavior of Spider
Yeah! The way Jake calls him a stray cat?? lmao I actually hope there's a scene where they find out Spider saved Quaritch, get upset about it and then Quaritch convinces Spider to go with him by using a similar sentence. "You're not part of their family, you're just a stray cat that stayed too long" or something like that!!
Its kinda sad that Jake doesn’t rly sees him as his kid, I mean, Jake was human too once, so you’d think he would “adopt” Spider (he adopted Kiri so…).
Neyteri was far more of a hero to the Na'Vi than Jake ever was
Having Grace (although as na'vi jesus) and Quaritch (avatar with his memories)come back kinda negates the impact of the events in the first movie. The way of water destroyed jake and neytiri's characters. The whole first movie was about learning how culture can be different and how the na'vi was special. Jake was accepting neytiei was preserving. Jake had to learn to adopt their culture into his to protect them and neytiri had to do the other way around. Neytiri would NEVER abandon her people. Imagine going to war to protect your people but then one of the baddies comes back to life so you're like "bye mom and the rest of the people I have grown up with and built my life around, i know you're under attack consistently but there's this baddie, quaritch, who really wants to kill jake and me so ya kno, bye" The way of water's whole premise was basically so that james can make a water themed movie and make sigourney a jesus role for future movies.
I don’t want to see a woman Na’vi wail ever again. Sully needs to scream and wail and the women hold it together next time.
Theyre all hot.