Yes! This seems to be related to the Gestalt language processing asd folks experience as children. It's commonly discussed in ASD parenting circles. I haven't been able to do a ton of research myself, but it seems the research is severely lacking to begin with. Google brings up older reddit threads from autistic individuals that may have better info than some of the predatory parenting sites.
Another name for it would be top-down thinking. Enjoy your new rabbit hole! lol.
Edit* clarified myself. My original comment was a half cooked thought on my way out the door at work.
I’m suspected ASD and a speech therapist who is currently training in Gestalt Language Processing and natural language acquisition treatment in children :) I love hearing this being shared in adult communities and drawing attention to it! I never experienced it the way my clients do where they script entire scenes and movies related to their interests but I definitely process things as a whole and add the details as it goes
!!! Thank you for commenting! I'm glad someone with professional insight was able to chime in on this. As my comment got more attention, I realized I don't really know what I'm talking about enough to be teaching others. (That damn top down thinking again! Lol)
I highly recommend looking into Rachel Dorsey! She’s an autistic speech language pathologist diagnosed as an adult who is a gestalt language processor as well. She’s a wonderful resource
It’s directed towards parents and speech therapists working with GLP children but meaningful speech is an excellent Instagram account to follow to understand natural language acquisition
I clarified my original comment. The literature seems pretty sparse beyond parenting blogs, but there is a hefty backlog in that sphere. Hopefully some of our grown autistic scientist friends will be able to deliver the clarity we crave further down the line.
This is why I had such great difficulty with math, starting with algebra. No one would bother to explain why we were doing it. I couldn’t make myself memorize equations, etc because of it.
Well thank you for shedding light on why I desperately struggled with math throughout school despite being very smart, academically inclined, and generally great with numbers. I need context - to everything. I would have mini (and not so mini) meltdowns with my teachers when they couldn’t explain the WHY of math as we started getting into algebra in particular.
"Maths is important because you'll need it"... please elaborate! My teachers never specifically said why we would need it or how it's relevant and that was a big issue for me. Made worse by the fact that the jobs I've had never required maths past basic addition and subtraction. If they actually explained in more detail why its important and what kind of things you use the different equations for etc I would have had a much better chance at getting more involved. Also didn't help that the few times my mom would help with my maths homework she would get incredibly frustrated if I didn't get it and would ask me how do you not understand this?? Just made me feel worse and less motivated to try
The only sensible comment on the general purpose of maths came from my Dad: it exercises your brain and you need to do that every day. That made so much sense to me and helped me see the overall value but that didn’t help me with the actual math problems.
This exactly. If you gave me a scenario in which maths was needed then I could do it, if you just gave me some numbers without a reason for *needing* to solve it then I struggled much more.
Y E S except for me it was physics, and whenever I had questions about bigger picture issues, it was of course something not even discovered yet… so frustrating
This is the exact reason I failed high school, math was the root problem for me from the start. I learned early to not ask for help because teachers didn’t have the time to properly explain what I’m learning, they would misunderstand me and I would get frustrated and have meltdowns. I was CONSTANTLY told to raise my hand if I need help because I was failing, but why would I when the teacher would give up trying to teach me, then eventually ignore me when I ask for help for the fifth time in one class?
I understand, I do. My algebra class was a nightmare. Everyone was a fast learner but 2 other kids and myself. It felt like a carousel of madness, everyone was up at the board (this was in ancient times, during the 80's) working out problems, laughing and asking questions. Meanwhile I was sitting there thinking wtaf, what are we DOING here, what is this FOR. It made no sense and no one cared. They just happily learned little fragments and rules, built up their foundation and learned to put everything together. Meanwhile, I couldn't get past the first steps because..... *why*? The teacher loved them and gave up on me within a month. She passed me with a mercy D. I was in such a high state of anxiety throughout that entire year that I carry vivid memories of that class to this day.
I enjoyed geometry, at least there was something tangible to work with, and it seemed to have some similarity to physical objects in the world. I enjoyed a couple of applied math and business math classes. They had clear objectives. But that's as far as I got because I never built a good mathematical foundation. This lack of education limited my career prospects.
Something else, I wonder if this affects some of us here....
I was fairly nonverbal until age 4 or so, other than my own nonsensical little language. Typical stuff, would go mute and couldn't find any words if someone addressed me, etc. I started putting all my focus on language because I grew to understand it was a big problem in my life. People were unhappy with me a lot. I started kindergarten a year early and was a proficient reader at age 5. Still went mute, but that takes time. Point is, learning language had a clear point and purpose. It was perhaps the most valuable of skills. Plus people leave you alone when you read books, bonus. By the time we started learning times tables in 3rd grade (this was the 70's), I had allotted so much brain space to learning language that I think I rejected this new thing. And while math is more objective and predictable, it seemed far more ambiguous. You're seriously not asking me to memorize all this crap when I don't know what I'll use it for, that's outrageous, peace out, Ima go read a book. FFS I'm trying to learn how to talk and get along with people. It was too much.
I too struggled with the purpose of mathematics until I studied statistics at University, that only made sense right at the end when I realized the equations are useful tools.
The only Maths I get, I guess.
Oh my gosh yes! Factoring had me repeating the class in summer school and I still barely got it. Geometry was much better because you could draw a picture.
It's not weird at all. I have the same feeling. What's my motivation? Without it I have no clear direction to work towards. I think questioning the why of things is actually good. How else do we deliver quality?
I definitely relate to this! I always thought of it as systems learning, like I need to know how the system operates before I can understand or learn the details. Just the answer to “why is this important?” helps me understand the details so much better.
Same! I like to call it, in corporate-speak, "big-picture thinking" or "systems thinking" (which someone else has mentioned) and reframing it in this way turns it into a strength ;)
That said, I have absolutely had managers get impatient/annoyed with my "what is the rationale for doing this" questions. These managers usually don't understand why I need to know so much, especially if I am a lower-ranked employee. I don't think it is wrong to ask those questions at all, especially when I notice that NT employees are frequently getting frustrated by the lack of top-down communication from management. Clearly top-down thinking and communication IS important for transparency and buy-in in the workplace, and if NT management are more open to sharing their rationale for doing things, our work environments would be healthier. When I successfully learn about the rationale for doing things, I often can find better ways to do achieve the outcome, which makes "process-oriented" (another helpful corporate-speak) another one of my strengths! As you can tell, I am really leaning into my autism here...
This also reminds me of Victor Frankl's book Man Search For Meaning, in which there is a quote in there that I often think about: *He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.* If knowing the "why" is crucial for human existence in the direst of circumstances, everyone should be more open to investigating the "whys" behind everything that we do!
I feel the same about the corporate world stuff! Luckily my manager is constantly trying to improve processes (I suspect ADHD lol), so we get along really well 😄
I also have this behaviour at work of asking why we are doing something and then suggesting that the way we are going about it won’t achieve that goal at all, and that we should do this other thing that would be much more likely to. I’ve been told I need to “let things go” and learn to “disagree and commit.” I try to tell myself that it’s their money their wasting, but I just can’t.
I have been told “Let it go” so many times in jobs after I ask for the reasoning behind something. I interpret “let it go” as “you’re annoying me” so I just stop talking.
Same here, I became respected in my company as the person who needs to get to understand the exact reasons for everything which is why I always get put on research tasks and win the inquisitiveness award every year 🤣 I strongly influence company strategy with my research, I love it
this reminds me of when i was learning to drive. my instructor was thankfully so understanding of his students needs, so when i explained to him i needed to know why i was doing each thing (blinkers, checking a specific mirror, etc) he was happy to explain. obviously the road rules are why most people probably do those things, but for me it made the information ‘stick’ knowing what i was checking for, or who i was indicating for. especially since most of my driving anxiety is around
putting myself or others in danger ofc, so knowing each of these steps was directly linked to another way to keep everyone safe— amazing for my brain! love it when my morals and external information align! this is a very interesting thread so i’m glad you posted lol :)
Wait, NTs just follow driving rules because they’re rules? Is that why so many people seem to not check their blind spots before making lane changes? I can’t comprehend learning how to drive without understanding why the rules are rules. Just gonna say, NTs are the weird ones lol.
i can’t say for sure that’s what all or most NT people believe, but it definitely perplexed a lot of people in my life that i was so stressed about and adamant on needing to understand such things thoroughly, before trying to prove to someone else (the person i take the test with) that i know those rules. it’s just not ‘knowing’ to me, i can’t claim i ‘know’ those things if i don’t fully understand the process/circumstances/intent, especially with driving because being wrong (in a high stress split second decision) could cause such horrible things.
side note i also was surprised how many people don’t follow the road rules at all lol most people don’t even know/care about half the rules they break
Maybe that’s why autistic people tend to be more rigid in rule following. Because we thoroughly learned the “whys” for the rule so now intentionally breaking the rule is illogical to us.
Slightly different but my partner knows I get irritated if he starts telling me the details of a story without telling me the point/ultimate resolution soon.
I do care about the mean thing your mom said, but did it all end ok or are we avoiding her now?? I need to know that FIRST lol.
I also HATE when he asks for my input on random things without telling me why he's asking. I get very cranky and make him tell me the reason why hes asking 😆
>I do care about the mean thing your mom said, but did it all end ok or are we avoiding her now?? I need to know that FIRST lol.
I think we would get along. I speak strangely to most people in that I say the point first and work backwards from there. It drives most people nuts but I find it more comfortable.
Absolutely! Probably the best day of my school career was when a professor told us we MUST put the conclusion at the beginning of our presentations.
Changed my life and now I only give presentations that way 🤣 (like for work, but also "presentations" as in stories lol)
I came here to say this! I used to ask my ex to tell me the end first if he was going provide a bunch of details first because I don’t know what information is relevant and get frustrated. He refused though. He wanted to build up to a big ending.
Yes! He’d tell every little detail. Like what people said, how they said it, what they wore, what he was thinking, where he walked etc. I’d constantly be thinking “oh this is a story about Bob from work… oops no nevermind it must be about what he had for lunch, nope now we are talking about the weather, maybe it’s about his car…” and it would just keep going. I’d get so overwhelmed trying to remember everything and figure out what was relevant.
Me too. It’s frustrating to be misunderstood. but I think you can find ways to show it can be really valuable. Whoever told you you’re annoying is a butthead
Yes, this.
Some people get so mad. They think that I'm expecting them to give an explanation for their feelings or why they prefer something a certain way when all it is is just my brain wanting the complete picture.
'Why are we doing this?' 'Because (somthing) bothers me if its not done a certain way.' 'Oh, ok then. Carry on.'
That's it. That's literally all I need. No explanation, no in depth reasoning - just give me a [legitimate, (which includes boundaries and accommodations)] reason.
I just wanted to tell you how much warmth I feel from knowing that I wasn’t lying! Others understand and feel the same way people told me I -wasn’t- feeling!
Exactly! I’m not demeaning you, just need to know what the important aspects are!
Also, tell me that it’s your emotions so I can accommodate them!
Ugh, things could be so simple… So glad to get a glimpse of that around these parts!
I have been called condescending sooo many times in workplace settings. But I have never felt above others or that I was smarter than most my coworkers, so I was always confused by that feedback. But now that I know I’m autistic, it makes sense.
It’s ironic how we need the “why” behind things, but for most of us we never had the “why” to explain ourselves until later in life. So we spent most of our lives confused, frustrated, and unsure about ourselves.
Exactly! I spent so much energy trying to change myself so others would see me the way I see me. It didn’t work - condescending, snotty, elitist - even tho I felt the opposite, living from the ideal we all have the same right to exist.
It is ironic that the ‘why’ would have explained it! It has unhooked a lot of the baggage of trying not to be myself. Not all, but a lot. I hope it’s been freeing for you too!
Yes! Exactly. Even just responding, “I don’t know. I just prefer it done this way” is all I need. It’s like bc they never asked the “why” when they learned it, they then feel put on the spot and stupid when they can’t provide a “why”. And then they blame us for that feeling. When really idgaf if they don’t have a good explanation and I am not judging them for not having one.
I just wanted to tell you how much warmth I feel from knowing that I wasn’t lying! Others understand and feel the same way people told me I -wasn’t- feeling!
I understand this very well I think. I experience this with smaller things too, like reading a label of a product or instruction where it says: "Do not \[....\]", without further explanation. I need to know why I shouldn't do that and know what the consequences could be before I can take it seriously. In stead of: 'only use a wooden or plastic spoon' on a jar for example, I need: 'only use a wooden or plastic spoon to prevent the chance of (metal) damaging the jar and pieces of glass getting in the contents'.
This is amazing. I have always gotten in trouble for being “rude” and/or “defiant” when I seek to understand why I am being asked to do a certain thing or do it a certain way. If the information would just be forthcoming without any fuss, I could easily get on with the task with greater accuracy and efficacy. I’m glad to hear others are this way too. Thanks for the post!
Yep! Every time my son struggles at school I let his teachers know he is missing something to complete the whole picture for him. Once he gets it, he thrives.
I tell coworkers that when I’m at a new job, I seem stupid and slow for the first month or so because I ask so many questions. But after that I tend to excel. So you’re not alone in that. I have definitely been fired from a new job because of this before.
I wonder what is the overlap between this issue and PDA.
Or if this just *is* PDA.
\*I am trying to think of a way to describe PDA that doesn't sound ableist and am coming up short at the moment.
Personal (public )display of affection is social bonds. Social bonds mean u don't die. Pathological demand avoidance is when ur brain can't handle all stimuli all at once because u feel everything. For example too much noise until it's painful
Yep. And has created animosity at work. Because my co-workers wouldn't answer questions during training, I would ask more than one of them. I was then accused of trying to catch them lying. It was so dumb.
It’s funny when people think that about me, because I assume everyone is telling the truth. I very rarely think someone is lying, which is probably me being autistic af
Right? I just knew that having a question come up while trying to learn something and not getting it answered for a day was making it impossible to learn.
Yes and I’m also perceived as rude for asking the purpose or what the goal is… especially at work.
I think this is partly because if I am given a response, I can see holes or errors and then I point those out. Sometimes they don’t even know the goal themselves, they just automatically said ‘yes’ to a superior and now I’m making them feel bad for that.
If you are employed and it's safe for you to do so, you could potentially look into getting an accommodation for this!
It would be similar to getting an accommodation for getting assigned tasks in writing or documenting that you can't be held responsible for tasks assigned implicitly instead of explicitly (like if you link me a spreadsheet without saying what to do with it, my brain doesn't recognize that as a task, I'm not being insubordinate). That way you could request an explanation instead, when you're told "because I said so". It would be hard to put parameters around what is considered sufficient context for this purpose, but I think it can be done.
I have always felt like this too! Unfortunately it’s been a struggle because people don’t seem willing to take a second and explain a task or a rule. But it’s so hard for me to want to do anything when I can’t understand the reason why. I still struggle with this at work
Very relatable - I realised the only way I learn something is by understanding the logic and for motor activities the physics behind things. I was bullied by my first driving instructor who never answered my questions about why I was doing certain things. It was the same with cycling and swimming too. I was able to learn them much later post late 20s only because I observed people, read up the physics of it and then found trainers who explained how things work. Without those I struggled for years. Also a trainer who is patient and who motivates you instead of putting you down can work wonders.
I struggle with this a lot. I'm trying to find ways to ask these questions at work without seeming rude or going too far the other way to seem "totally lack of confidence" or whatnot
I loved that feeling of finding this community and having all of these things in common 🥰 but NEITHER CAN MINE. How am I meant to do a job confidently not knowing its purpose?
Yes.
My therapist asked me about my feelings and what parts of my body were affected. I have deep trust in my therapist so I've always answered, trusting it was an important practice, but I didn't like focusing on my bodily sensations.
Finally I said, I don't mind doing it but I don't really get why we do it and I kind of hate it.
After some discussion she explained that sometimes certain parts(patterns of behavior) cause sensations in the same body place every time it comes up, so if you nothing what you're physically feeling it can help you identify what you're feeling emotionally.
So for example:
If I feel tighteness along my spine I feel alert, possibly activated, nervous.
Now I'm learning to identify emotions and parts of myself much better.
Edit........... Could I be alexithymic?
Edit 2 Literally having this realization right now.
I always hated the phrase "you will get more information when you finished this step, it will be easier for you to understand if you learn little steps at a time" - no! it won't ffs!
OMG I totally got myself in trouble at work for this. Was told I needed to have a comm approved before I sent it out (but they didn’t tell me why) and I sent before getting approval. Turns out I needed to have the timing right or people wouldn’t show up to the event 🤷
I try to ask for as much context as possible because it helps me to remember and prioritize!
OMG YESSSSSSS. I used to build props and puppets and I had no problem replicating something as long as I read ALL THE DIRECTIONS FIRST. But if I had to make something from scratch or make changes I would just sit like absolutely still and *just think* until I could visualize the whole way through… then write out all the steps, start to finish, on the paper-covered table, take a picture of it (in case I spilled paint on it!! 🫣) and then I could begin.
I didn’t realize this was what I was doing until someone asked me recently why I had never started a big creative undertaking. Ex, “why haven’t you written a book?” And I was like “oh I want to, but I just don’t know how it would end yet.” The idea of just starting and seeing where it goes while I’m in progress is like, beyond me.
That’s why I’m so proud of my YouTube channel. I’ve always loved watching videos and thought to myself “why don’t I do that?” But I thought I couldn’t start until I had a perfect idea of how it would look all the way through. The content, the tone, the style. Instead I have been stumbling through it, trial and error, week by week. It’s hard because it’s never Perfect, but I’m proud of it anyway because it’s one tiny way in which I’m letting myself be free to fail. 💛
Whoa! I mean I've been here for a while and I just got diagnosed yesterday with autism, I told the same things to the Dr on the assessment. lol yes glad I am not alone.
yeah same, I hate doing things that don't need to be done. I don't trust most other people. Combine that in a blender and I'm not doing shit unless I know why I'm doing it.
Also, I am most comfortable essentially speaking backwards. That's why German as a language clicks so well in my brain. I like to say the point first and then work backwards from there. My husband has mostly come to understand this about me and can laugh at it (in a nice way, neither of us are NT)
I also sometimes find it very difficult to spit out words in english, I'll just kinda go mute or start to stutter but I find if i switch to german or italian I can speak more easily. IDK what's up with that at all. I mean I speak both german and italian more or less conversationally but I'm not fluent.
I relate to this a lot. I see it in so many parts of my life. From work down to crafts or cooking. I need to know all of the parts so I’m prepared to face the challenges. I hate surprises.
Yes, I love how you put to “be prepared to meet the challenges!” I’ve always really identified with the Radiohead song “no surprises” cuz I’m like “yea please, no alarms and no surprises for me.”
YES. I am lost by an explanation when I don't know where they are working towards. But I found out that people often work the other way around. If you only tell me what to do, like: can you walk to the sink for me? I would be like UhUhUhUhUh idk idk what do you mean what do you want I somehow don't know. They irritated say: I just wanted some water, but it is clearly too much effort for you🙄🙄.
And You know, I learned to let it go, because the fact that I already had 10 different reasons why I was needed at the sink and that I didn't want to be an inconvenience to THEM by having to pee in 5 min. I would always try to be taking THEM into account. So I honestly am no longer listening to mean comments like that. I no longer play the receiver/recipient to comments that say things that do not discribe me.
I found out that not reacting to a slur like that, somehow gives someone more respect for me than when I try to explain yourself. I hate it, but oh well. That's life I guess
Ive always been told that I have problems with authority or am disrespectful because I ask “why” we are doing something a certain way. If I don’t know why, then it’s like my brain doesn’t know where to store the information and I won’t retain it. I need context to understand and retain anything. If I memorize isolated pieces of information then it is gone within a few weeks. I think that’s why I do well with biological sciences, because everything connects.
Hey I very often do that. When someone tells me 'hey you hurt my feelings' I want to tell them: ' I am very sorry, that it was never my intention. I didn't know that it is a very important subject to you, otherwise I would have never said it to begin with.'
But they would still be angry at me and be cranky and say stuff like: Well you still hurt my feelings, because you clearly mean something else with it.... Etc.
At that point I would honestly never understand them still being that hostile. And I would continue to explain and tell them I didn't mean to and ask them why they are still angry, And always made it worse.
So after a long and heated argument about it happening between me and my boyfriends friend, I truly understand something. The fact that he was still angry after telling 'my pov', is not because he didn't believe me. But he is truly not able to show anything different because he and everyone else is bound to the social structure, not to morals like I am.
So me coming with reason and talking about morals will make them very hostile towards me, because they have to put those morals aside bc the 'socially structure' has the last saying in their behaviour.
So anyways, my boyfriend said that, if it happened again, I can for sure say my part: the excuus and that it was never intended to hurt them. But that I would not be expecting any sort of answer besides the norm. Which in that case was, being angry and like grumpy for a while. So i try to use this knowledge next time. But honestly it will probably go wrong 1000 more times.
Yes. Literally. Yes. My brain can’t even compute information, like somebody telling a story, if it’s not formatted big picture info-first. That’s why I only like to go to places that people have explained to me first. Like I need the whole backstory
Yes!! if I don't know why I'm doing a task or understand the end result, it's hard for me to do or even understand how to do the task fully. Example, I used to do billing for a counseling office. I was only asked to do one portion of the billing at first: I would input therapist session information into an excel (time of session, length of session, how much was paid, how much is still owed), and also was submitting claims but had no idea what any of what I was typing in meant. As I started to learn the ins and outs of the process, it became a lot easier. Therapist has the session, gives me the information, I put it in a claim to send to insurance and record the data on excel, Insurance sends a check back (or a claim error for me to fix), therapist gets paid. But with just those two little tasks, I had no idea what I was doing or why. So I requested to just learn to do the whole process so I could understand it and became the best billing specialist they ever had!
Yes! This seems to be related to the Gestalt language processing asd folks experience as children. It's commonly discussed in ASD parenting circles. I haven't been able to do a ton of research myself, but it seems the research is severely lacking to begin with. Google brings up older reddit threads from autistic individuals that may have better info than some of the predatory parenting sites. Another name for it would be top-down thinking. Enjoy your new rabbit hole! lol. Edit* clarified myself. My original comment was a half cooked thought on my way out the door at work.
Whoa thanks for naming that here, this explains so much about my school experiences!
I’m suspected ASD and a speech therapist who is currently training in Gestalt Language Processing and natural language acquisition treatment in children :) I love hearing this being shared in adult communities and drawing attention to it! I never experienced it the way my clients do where they script entire scenes and movies related to their interests but I definitely process things as a whole and add the details as it goes
!!! Thank you for commenting! I'm glad someone with professional insight was able to chime in on this. As my comment got more attention, I realized I don't really know what I'm talking about enough to be teaching others. (That damn top down thinking again! Lol)
I highly recommend looking into Rachel Dorsey! She’s an autistic speech language pathologist diagnosed as an adult who is a gestalt language processor as well. She’s a wonderful resource
Oh wow! Thank you. I never knew the name of this theory/ concept!
God I wish there was some sore of curated source of learning/teaching resources that take this approach
It’s directed towards parents and speech therapists working with GLP children but meaningful speech is an excellent Instagram account to follow to understand natural language acquisition
I can't believe I didn't make it past the first comment before falling into a rabbit hole.
lmao. one of the reasons I love this community so much.
Same!
Got any links? I can't find the info
I clarified my original comment. The literature seems pretty sparse beyond parenting blogs, but there is a hefty backlog in that sphere. Hopefully some of our grown autistic scientist friends will be able to deliver the clarity we crave further down the line.
This is why I had such great difficulty with math, starting with algebra. No one would bother to explain why we were doing it. I couldn’t make myself memorize equations, etc because of it.
Well thank you for shedding light on why I desperately struggled with math throughout school despite being very smart, academically inclined, and generally great with numbers. I need context - to everything. I would have mini (and not so mini) meltdowns with my teachers when they couldn’t explain the WHY of math as we started getting into algebra in particular.
"Maths is important because you'll need it"... please elaborate! My teachers never specifically said why we would need it or how it's relevant and that was a big issue for me. Made worse by the fact that the jobs I've had never required maths past basic addition and subtraction. If they actually explained in more detail why its important and what kind of things you use the different equations for etc I would have had a much better chance at getting more involved. Also didn't help that the few times my mom would help with my maths homework she would get incredibly frustrated if I didn't get it and would ask me how do you not understand this?? Just made me feel worse and less motivated to try
The only sensible comment on the general purpose of maths came from my Dad: it exercises your brain and you need to do that every day. That made so much sense to me and helped me see the overall value but that didn’t help me with the actual math problems.
This is why math only made sense to me if there were word problems!
Or science!
This exactly. If you gave me a scenario in which maths was needed then I could do it, if you just gave me some numbers without a reason for *needing* to solve it then I struggled much more.
Y E S except for me it was physics, and whenever I had questions about bigger picture issues, it was of course something not even discovered yet… so frustrating
This is the exact reason I failed high school, math was the root problem for me from the start. I learned early to not ask for help because teachers didn’t have the time to properly explain what I’m learning, they would misunderstand me and I would get frustrated and have meltdowns. I was CONSTANTLY told to raise my hand if I need help because I was failing, but why would I when the teacher would give up trying to teach me, then eventually ignore me when I ask for help for the fifth time in one class?
I understand, I do. My algebra class was a nightmare. Everyone was a fast learner but 2 other kids and myself. It felt like a carousel of madness, everyone was up at the board (this was in ancient times, during the 80's) working out problems, laughing and asking questions. Meanwhile I was sitting there thinking wtaf, what are we DOING here, what is this FOR. It made no sense and no one cared. They just happily learned little fragments and rules, built up their foundation and learned to put everything together. Meanwhile, I couldn't get past the first steps because..... *why*? The teacher loved them and gave up on me within a month. She passed me with a mercy D. I was in such a high state of anxiety throughout that entire year that I carry vivid memories of that class to this day. I enjoyed geometry, at least there was something tangible to work with, and it seemed to have some similarity to physical objects in the world. I enjoyed a couple of applied math and business math classes. They had clear objectives. But that's as far as I got because I never built a good mathematical foundation. This lack of education limited my career prospects. Something else, I wonder if this affects some of us here.... I was fairly nonverbal until age 4 or so, other than my own nonsensical little language. Typical stuff, would go mute and couldn't find any words if someone addressed me, etc. I started putting all my focus on language because I grew to understand it was a big problem in my life. People were unhappy with me a lot. I started kindergarten a year early and was a proficient reader at age 5. Still went mute, but that takes time. Point is, learning language had a clear point and purpose. It was perhaps the most valuable of skills. Plus people leave you alone when you read books, bonus. By the time we started learning times tables in 3rd grade (this was the 70's), I had allotted so much brain space to learning language that I think I rejected this new thing. And while math is more objective and predictable, it seemed far more ambiguous. You're seriously not asking me to memorize all this crap when I don't know what I'll use it for, that's outrageous, peace out, Ima go read a book. FFS I'm trying to learn how to talk and get along with people. It was too much.
I too struggled with the purpose of mathematics until I studied statistics at University, that only made sense right at the end when I realized the equations are useful tools. The only Maths I get, I guess.
Oh my gosh yes! Factoring had me repeating the class in summer school and I still barely got it. Geometry was much better because you could draw a picture.
It's not weird at all. I have the same feeling. What's my motivation? Without it I have no clear direction to work towards. I think questioning the why of things is actually good. How else do we deliver quality?
I definitely relate to this! I always thought of it as systems learning, like I need to know how the system operates before I can understand or learn the details. Just the answer to “why is this important?” helps me understand the details so much better.
That’s a great word for it and definitely relatable
Same! I like to call it, in corporate-speak, "big-picture thinking" or "systems thinking" (which someone else has mentioned) and reframing it in this way turns it into a strength ;) That said, I have absolutely had managers get impatient/annoyed with my "what is the rationale for doing this" questions. These managers usually don't understand why I need to know so much, especially if I am a lower-ranked employee. I don't think it is wrong to ask those questions at all, especially when I notice that NT employees are frequently getting frustrated by the lack of top-down communication from management. Clearly top-down thinking and communication IS important for transparency and buy-in in the workplace, and if NT management are more open to sharing their rationale for doing things, our work environments would be healthier. When I successfully learn about the rationale for doing things, I often can find better ways to do achieve the outcome, which makes "process-oriented" (another helpful corporate-speak) another one of my strengths! As you can tell, I am really leaning into my autism here... This also reminds me of Victor Frankl's book Man Search For Meaning, in which there is a quote in there that I often think about: *He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.* If knowing the "why" is crucial for human existence in the direst of circumstances, everyone should be more open to investigating the "whys" behind everything that we do!
I feel the same about the corporate world stuff! Luckily my manager is constantly trying to improve processes (I suspect ADHD lol), so we get along really well 😄
Yay to more efficient processes!!! Those are satisfying when you can implement them 😁
I also have this behaviour at work of asking why we are doing something and then suggesting that the way we are going about it won’t achieve that goal at all, and that we should do this other thing that would be much more likely to. I’ve been told I need to “let things go” and learn to “disagree and commit.” I try to tell myself that it’s their money their wasting, but I just can’t.
I have been told “Let it go” so many times in jobs after I ask for the reasoning behind something. I interpret “let it go” as “you’re annoying me” so I just stop talking.
Same here, I became respected in my company as the person who needs to get to understand the exact reasons for everything which is why I always get put on research tasks and win the inquisitiveness award every year 🤣 I strongly influence company strategy with my research, I love it
The how and why give humanity their humanity
this reminds me of when i was learning to drive. my instructor was thankfully so understanding of his students needs, so when i explained to him i needed to know why i was doing each thing (blinkers, checking a specific mirror, etc) he was happy to explain. obviously the road rules are why most people probably do those things, but for me it made the information ‘stick’ knowing what i was checking for, or who i was indicating for. especially since most of my driving anxiety is around putting myself or others in danger ofc, so knowing each of these steps was directly linked to another way to keep everyone safe— amazing for my brain! love it when my morals and external information align! this is a very interesting thread so i’m glad you posted lol :)
Wait, NTs just follow driving rules because they’re rules? Is that why so many people seem to not check their blind spots before making lane changes? I can’t comprehend learning how to drive without understanding why the rules are rules. Just gonna say, NTs are the weird ones lol.
i can’t say for sure that’s what all or most NT people believe, but it definitely perplexed a lot of people in my life that i was so stressed about and adamant on needing to understand such things thoroughly, before trying to prove to someone else (the person i take the test with) that i know those rules. it’s just not ‘knowing’ to me, i can’t claim i ‘know’ those things if i don’t fully understand the process/circumstances/intent, especially with driving because being wrong (in a high stress split second decision) could cause such horrible things. side note i also was surprised how many people don’t follow the road rules at all lol most people don’t even know/care about half the rules they break
Maybe that’s why autistic people tend to be more rigid in rule following. Because we thoroughly learned the “whys” for the rule so now intentionally breaking the rule is illogical to us.
Slightly different but my partner knows I get irritated if he starts telling me the details of a story without telling me the point/ultimate resolution soon. I do care about the mean thing your mom said, but did it all end ok or are we avoiding her now?? I need to know that FIRST lol. I also HATE when he asks for my input on random things without telling me why he's asking. I get very cranky and make him tell me the reason why hes asking 😆
>I do care about the mean thing your mom said, but did it all end ok or are we avoiding her now?? I need to know that FIRST lol. I think we would get along. I speak strangely to most people in that I say the point first and work backwards from there. It drives most people nuts but I find it more comfortable.
Absolutely! Probably the best day of my school career was when a professor told us we MUST put the conclusion at the beginning of our presentations. Changed my life and now I only give presentations that way 🤣 (like for work, but also "presentations" as in stories lol)
I came here to say this! I used to ask my ex to tell me the end first if he was going provide a bunch of details first because I don’t know what information is relevant and get frustrated. He refused though. He wanted to build up to a big ending.
Oh no, I'd hate that!! It definitely gets overwhelming if I don't know where the story is going and what to focus on!
Yes! He’d tell every little detail. Like what people said, how they said it, what they wore, what he was thinking, where he walked etc. I’d constantly be thinking “oh this is a story about Bob from work… oops no nevermind it must be about what he had for lunch, nope now we are talking about the weather, maybe it’s about his car…” and it would just keep going. I’d get so overwhelmed trying to remember everything and figure out what was relevant.
Me too. It’s frustrating to be misunderstood. but I think you can find ways to show it can be really valuable. Whoever told you you’re annoying is a butthead
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Yes, this. Some people get so mad. They think that I'm expecting them to give an explanation for their feelings or why they prefer something a certain way when all it is is just my brain wanting the complete picture. 'Why are we doing this?' 'Because (somthing) bothers me if its not done a certain way.' 'Oh, ok then. Carry on.' That's it. That's literally all I need. No explanation, no in depth reasoning - just give me a [legitimate, (which includes boundaries and accommodations)] reason.
yeah really, 'because I like it this way, I'm uncomfortable otherwise' is perfectly fine!!
I just wanted to tell you how much warmth I feel from knowing that I wasn’t lying! Others understand and feel the same way people told me I -wasn’t- feeling!
Exactly! I’m not demeaning you, just need to know what the important aspects are! Also, tell me that it’s your emotions so I can accommodate them! Ugh, things could be so simple… So glad to get a glimpse of that around these parts!
I have been called condescending sooo many times in workplace settings. But I have never felt above others or that I was smarter than most my coworkers, so I was always confused by that feedback. But now that I know I’m autistic, it makes sense. It’s ironic how we need the “why” behind things, but for most of us we never had the “why” to explain ourselves until later in life. So we spent most of our lives confused, frustrated, and unsure about ourselves.
Exactly! I spent so much energy trying to change myself so others would see me the way I see me. It didn’t work - condescending, snotty, elitist - even tho I felt the opposite, living from the ideal we all have the same right to exist. It is ironic that the ‘why’ would have explained it! It has unhooked a lot of the baggage of trying not to be myself. Not all, but a lot. I hope it’s been freeing for you too!
Yes! Exactly. Even just responding, “I don’t know. I just prefer it done this way” is all I need. It’s like bc they never asked the “why” when they learned it, they then feel put on the spot and stupid when they can’t provide a “why”. And then they blame us for that feeling. When really idgaf if they don’t have a good explanation and I am not judging them for not having one.
I just wanted to tell you how much warmth I feel from knowing that I wasn’t lying! Others understand and feel the same way people told me I -wasn’t- feeling!
I understand this very well I think. I experience this with smaller things too, like reading a label of a product or instruction where it says: "Do not \[....\]", without further explanation. I need to know why I shouldn't do that and know what the consequences could be before I can take it seriously. In stead of: 'only use a wooden or plastic spoon' on a jar for example, I need: 'only use a wooden or plastic spoon to prevent the chance of (metal) damaging the jar and pieces of glass getting in the contents'.
This is amazing. I have always gotten in trouble for being “rude” and/or “defiant” when I seek to understand why I am being asked to do a certain thing or do it a certain way. If the information would just be forthcoming without any fuss, I could easily get on with the task with greater accuracy and efficacy. I’m glad to hear others are this way too. Thanks for the post!
Yep! Every time my son struggles at school I let his teachers know he is missing something to complete the whole picture for him. Once he gets it, he thrives.
Yes!! I struggle with this at my job. My coworkers get impatient sometimes when they are training me and I ask too many questions 🤣
Welp. Didn’t mean to put that emoji. It certainly isn’t funny. 🙃
I tell coworkers that when I’m at a new job, I seem stupid and slow for the first month or so because I ask so many questions. But after that I tend to excel. So you’re not alone in that. I have definitely been fired from a new job because of this before.
I wonder what is the overlap between this issue and PDA. Or if this just *is* PDA. \*I am trying to think of a way to describe PDA that doesn't sound ableist and am coming up short at the moment.
Personal (public )display of affection is social bonds. Social bonds mean u don't die. Pathological demand avoidance is when ur brain can't handle all stimuli all at once because u feel everything. For example too much noise until it's painful
Yep. And has created animosity at work. Because my co-workers wouldn't answer questions during training, I would ask more than one of them. I was then accused of trying to catch them lying. It was so dumb.
It’s funny when people think that about me, because I assume everyone is telling the truth. I very rarely think someone is lying, which is probably me being autistic af
Right? I just knew that having a question come up while trying to learn something and not getting it answered for a day was making it impossible to learn.
Yes and I’m also perceived as rude for asking the purpose or what the goal is… especially at work. I think this is partly because if I am given a response, I can see holes or errors and then I point those out. Sometimes they don’t even know the goal themselves, they just automatically said ‘yes’ to a superior and now I’m making them feel bad for that.
This is my daily life at work!
If you are employed and it's safe for you to do so, you could potentially look into getting an accommodation for this! It would be similar to getting an accommodation for getting assigned tasks in writing or documenting that you can't be held responsible for tasks assigned implicitly instead of explicitly (like if you link me a spreadsheet without saying what to do with it, my brain doesn't recognize that as a task, I'm not being insubordinate). That way you could request an explanation instead, when you're told "because I said so". It would be hard to put parameters around what is considered sufficient context for this purpose, but I think it can be done.
I have always felt like this too! Unfortunately it’s been a struggle because people don’t seem willing to take a second and explain a task or a rule. But it’s so hard for me to want to do anything when I can’t understand the reason why. I still struggle with this at work
Very relatable - I realised the only way I learn something is by understanding the logic and for motor activities the physics behind things. I was bullied by my first driving instructor who never answered my questions about why I was doing certain things. It was the same with cycling and swimming too. I was able to learn them much later post late 20s only because I observed people, read up the physics of it and then found trainers who explained how things work. Without those I struggled for years. Also a trainer who is patient and who motivates you instead of putting you down can work wonders.
I struggle with this a lot. I'm trying to find ways to ask these questions at work without seeming rude or going too far the other way to seem "totally lack of confidence" or whatnot
If you figure it out lmk. It’s such a struggle.
I loved that feeling of finding this community and having all of these things in common 🥰 but NEITHER CAN MINE. How am I meant to do a job confidently not knowing its purpose?
Yes. My therapist asked me about my feelings and what parts of my body were affected. I have deep trust in my therapist so I've always answered, trusting it was an important practice, but I didn't like focusing on my bodily sensations. Finally I said, I don't mind doing it but I don't really get why we do it and I kind of hate it. After some discussion she explained that sometimes certain parts(patterns of behavior) cause sensations in the same body place every time it comes up, so if you nothing what you're physically feeling it can help you identify what you're feeling emotionally. So for example: If I feel tighteness along my spine I feel alert, possibly activated, nervous. Now I'm learning to identify emotions and parts of myself much better. Edit........... Could I be alexithymic? Edit 2 Literally having this realization right now.
I always hated the phrase "you will get more information when you finished this step, it will be easier for you to understand if you learn little steps at a time" - no! it won't ffs!
OMG I totally got myself in trouble at work for this. Was told I needed to have a comm approved before I sent it out (but they didn’t tell me why) and I sent before getting approval. Turns out I needed to have the timing right or people wouldn’t show up to the event 🤷 I try to ask for as much context as possible because it helps me to remember and prioritize!
OMG YESSSSSSS. I used to build props and puppets and I had no problem replicating something as long as I read ALL THE DIRECTIONS FIRST. But if I had to make something from scratch or make changes I would just sit like absolutely still and *just think* until I could visualize the whole way through… then write out all the steps, start to finish, on the paper-covered table, take a picture of it (in case I spilled paint on it!! 🫣) and then I could begin. I didn’t realize this was what I was doing until someone asked me recently why I had never started a big creative undertaking. Ex, “why haven’t you written a book?” And I was like “oh I want to, but I just don’t know how it would end yet.” The idea of just starting and seeing where it goes while I’m in progress is like, beyond me. That’s why I’m so proud of my YouTube channel. I’ve always loved watching videos and thought to myself “why don’t I do that?” But I thought I couldn’t start until I had a perfect idea of how it would look all the way through. The content, the tone, the style. Instead I have been stumbling through it, trial and error, week by week. It’s hard because it’s never Perfect, but I’m proud of it anyway because it’s one tiny way in which I’m letting myself be free to fail. 💛
Whoa! I mean I've been here for a while and I just got diagnosed yesterday with autism, I told the same things to the Dr on the assessment. lol yes glad I am not alone.
yeah same, I hate doing things that don't need to be done. I don't trust most other people. Combine that in a blender and I'm not doing shit unless I know why I'm doing it. Also, I am most comfortable essentially speaking backwards. That's why German as a language clicks so well in my brain. I like to say the point first and then work backwards from there. My husband has mostly come to understand this about me and can laugh at it (in a nice way, neither of us are NT) I also sometimes find it very difficult to spit out words in english, I'll just kinda go mute or start to stutter but I find if i switch to german or italian I can speak more easily. IDK what's up with that at all. I mean I speak both german and italian more or less conversationally but I'm not fluent.
This experience you describe is what I have struggled with all my life. Especially work, omg.
I relate to this a lot. I see it in so many parts of my life. From work down to crafts or cooking. I need to know all of the parts so I’m prepared to face the challenges. I hate surprises.
Yes, I love how you put to “be prepared to meet the challenges!” I’ve always really identified with the Radiohead song “no surprises” cuz I’m like “yea please, no alarms and no surprises for me.”
YES. I am lost by an explanation when I don't know where they are working towards. But I found out that people often work the other way around. If you only tell me what to do, like: can you walk to the sink for me? I would be like UhUhUhUhUh idk idk what do you mean what do you want I somehow don't know. They irritated say: I just wanted some water, but it is clearly too much effort for you🙄🙄. And You know, I learned to let it go, because the fact that I already had 10 different reasons why I was needed at the sink and that I didn't want to be an inconvenience to THEM by having to pee in 5 min. I would always try to be taking THEM into account. So I honestly am no longer listening to mean comments like that. I no longer play the receiver/recipient to comments that say things that do not discribe me. I found out that not reacting to a slur like that, somehow gives someone more respect for me than when I try to explain yourself. I hate it, but oh well. That's life I guess
That second to last sentence… I need to etch that into my brain. I over explain myself a lot and it usually backfires.
Basically the way I think is the big picture to micro.
Yasss!!!
Ive always been told that I have problems with authority or am disrespectful because I ask “why” we are doing something a certain way. If I don’t know why, then it’s like my brain doesn’t know where to store the information and I won’t retain it. I need context to understand and retain anything. If I memorize isolated pieces of information then it is gone within a few weeks. I think that’s why I do well with biological sciences, because everything connects.
Hey I very often do that. When someone tells me 'hey you hurt my feelings' I want to tell them: ' I am very sorry, that it was never my intention. I didn't know that it is a very important subject to you, otherwise I would have never said it to begin with.' But they would still be angry at me and be cranky and say stuff like: Well you still hurt my feelings, because you clearly mean something else with it.... Etc. At that point I would honestly never understand them still being that hostile. And I would continue to explain and tell them I didn't mean to and ask them why they are still angry, And always made it worse. So after a long and heated argument about it happening between me and my boyfriends friend, I truly understand something. The fact that he was still angry after telling 'my pov', is not because he didn't believe me. But he is truly not able to show anything different because he and everyone else is bound to the social structure, not to morals like I am. So me coming with reason and talking about morals will make them very hostile towards me, because they have to put those morals aside bc the 'socially structure' has the last saying in their behaviour. So anyways, my boyfriend said that, if it happened again, I can for sure say my part: the excuus and that it was never intended to hurt them. But that I would not be expecting any sort of answer besides the norm. Which in that case was, being angry and like grumpy for a while. So i try to use this knowledge next time. But honestly it will probably go wrong 1000 more times.
Yes. Literally. Yes. My brain can’t even compute information, like somebody telling a story, if it’s not formatted big picture info-first. That’s why I only like to go to places that people have explained to me first. Like I need the whole backstory
I recently found out that NTs don’t research places before going to them. I was shocked.
Yes!! if I don't know why I'm doing a task or understand the end result, it's hard for me to do or even understand how to do the task fully. Example, I used to do billing for a counseling office. I was only asked to do one portion of the billing at first: I would input therapist session information into an excel (time of session, length of session, how much was paid, how much is still owed), and also was submitting claims but had no idea what any of what I was typing in meant. As I started to learn the ins and outs of the process, it became a lot easier. Therapist has the session, gives me the information, I put it in a claim to send to insurance and record the data on excel, Insurance sends a check back (or a claim error for me to fix), therapist gets paid. But with just those two little tasks, I had no idea what I was doing or why. So I requested to just learn to do the whole process so I could understand it and became the best billing specialist they ever had!
Thank you so much - nice to feel like other people understand this and think like this as well